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A korean source quotes that the
Sinicized 乞乞 of the autochtone word "Qiqi" means "Great" (
Hangul :대
Hanja/
Hanzi :大)
한자 표시의 ‘걸걸(乞乞)’은 그 훈(訓)이 아니라, 그 발음을 봐야 한다.
(...)
대(大)[da, 돋은]= [qiqi, 치치](乞乞)= ‘첫 (솟은)’이어야 한다.
(...)
더구나 ‘걸걸(乞乞)’ 말갈족 성씨이고, ‘대(大)’는 조선족 성씨이다
Conclusion :
Qiqi Zhongxiang also know as Dae Jung-sang are both correct because the first one is the Chinese pronouciation of the word Qiqi written in the Chinese Old records in Classical Chinese while the second one prouve us that the autochtone language do not belong to Chinese language family.
Da Zhongxiang is just a sinicized word
and Geolgeol is not really considered as a Korean name.
Sources :
(in Korean)
http://www.arirang-world.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t12305.html
(in Korean)
http://www.sungyoung.net/story/daijoyoung.html
Whlee
18:03, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
The word “乞乞” may have been read either in goguryeonized reading or in Middle Chinese reading for Hanzi.
Let’s look at the Goguryeo reading for Hanzi. The personal name of the King Micheon of Goguryeo was 乙弗 (a transcription into Hanzi) or 乙弗利 (a variant transcription into Hanzi). The variation of the personal name of the Goguryeo king shows that the consonant-final sound of the character “弗” was not “T” but “L or R”. This is one of the some examples which proves that Sino-Korean reading is close to Goguryeo reading for Hanzi. For reference, “乞乞” in Sino-Korean pronunciation is [kʌlkʌl]
So, I postulate that Goguryeo reading for the character “乞” was pronounced [k+(vowel)+l]. As for the Middle Chinese reading, considering the diverse reconstructions of the reading by linguists, I postulate that the Middle Chinese pronunciation for it was [k+(vowel)+t].
And the Korean native reading for “大” is exactly [kʰɯl]. Possibly [k+(vowel)+l] or [k+(vowel)+t] was Old Korean or at least cognate with the Korean word. To the contrary, Manchu word for “大” is [amba], hardly to imagine to be cognate with above mentioned reading. After having become the royal family of Balhae, the family of Dae Jo-yeong felt the need to create a surname which could represent their dynasty diplomatically to the neighboring countries. It is easy to imagine that their native surname meaning “great” was turned into “大” which was equivalent in meaning to “乞”
It could be a good example to study how native Korean surnames have changed into Chinese-like surnames.
Jagello (
talk)
09:28, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Qisi 乞四 is a Mohe/Malgal noble name which derived into a Jurchen name Chi-tzan (赤盞) and a Hungarian name Csiszar.
Sources :
According to volume 113 of the "Canonical history of the Jurchen Jin Dynasty" (金史), in 1232,General 赤盏合喜 (Chizhan Hexi) guarded Kaifeng and used explosives similar to nowadays grenade to defend against Mongol's attack (「其守城之具有火炮名『震天雷』者,铁礶盛药,以火点之,炮起火发,其声如雷,闻百里外,所爇围半亩之上,火点著甲铁皆透」。). The general 赤盏合喜's ancestral line is unknown, but very likely from this Qisi family.-- Jiejunkong 04:16, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
A korean source quotes that the
Sinicized 乞乞 of the autochtone word "Qiqi" means "Great" (
Hangul :대
Hanja/
Hanzi :大)
한자 표시의 ‘걸걸(乞乞)’은 그 훈(訓)이 아니라, 그 발음을 봐야 한다.
(...)
대(大)[da, 돋은]= [qiqi, 치치](乞乞)= ‘첫 (솟은)’이어야 한다.
(...)
더구나 ‘걸걸(乞乞)’ 말갈족 성씨이고, ‘대(大)’는 조선족 성씨이다
Conclusion :
Qiqi Zhongxiang also know as Dae Jung-sang are both correct because the first one is the Chinese pronouciation of the word Qiqi written in the Chinese Old records in Classical Chinese while the second one prouve us that the autochtone language do not belong to Chinese language family.
Da Zhongxiang is just a sinicized word
and Geolgeol is not really considered as a Korean name.
Sources :
(in Korean)
http://www.arirang-world.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t12305.html
(in Korean)
http://www.sungyoung.net/story/daijoyoung.html
Whlee
18:03, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
The word “乞乞” may have been read either in goguryeonized reading or in Middle Chinese reading for Hanzi.
Let’s look at the Goguryeo reading for Hanzi. The personal name of the King Micheon of Goguryeo was 乙弗 (a transcription into Hanzi) or 乙弗利 (a variant transcription into Hanzi). The variation of the personal name of the Goguryeo king shows that the consonant-final sound of the character “弗” was not “T” but “L or R”. This is one of the some examples which proves that Sino-Korean reading is close to Goguryeo reading for Hanzi. For reference, “乞乞” in Sino-Korean pronunciation is [kʌlkʌl]
So, I postulate that Goguryeo reading for the character “乞” was pronounced [k+(vowel)+l]. As for the Middle Chinese reading, considering the diverse reconstructions of the reading by linguists, I postulate that the Middle Chinese pronunciation for it was [k+(vowel)+t].
And the Korean native reading for “大” is exactly [kʰɯl]. Possibly [k+(vowel)+l] or [k+(vowel)+t] was Old Korean or at least cognate with the Korean word. To the contrary, Manchu word for “大” is [amba], hardly to imagine to be cognate with above mentioned reading. After having become the royal family of Balhae, the family of Dae Jo-yeong felt the need to create a surname which could represent their dynasty diplomatically to the neighboring countries. It is easy to imagine that their native surname meaning “great” was turned into “大” which was equivalent in meaning to “乞”
It could be a good example to study how native Korean surnames have changed into Chinese-like surnames.
Jagello (
talk)
09:28, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Qisi 乞四 is a Mohe/Malgal noble name which derived into a Jurchen name Chi-tzan (赤盞) and a Hungarian name Csiszar.
Sources :
According to volume 113 of the "Canonical history of the Jurchen Jin Dynasty" (金史), in 1232,General 赤盏合喜 (Chizhan Hexi) guarded Kaifeng and used explosives similar to nowadays grenade to defend against Mongol's attack (「其守城之具有火炮名『震天雷』者,铁礶盛药,以火点之,炮起火发,其声如雷,闻百里外,所爇围半亩之上,火点著甲铁皆透」。). The general 赤盏合喜's ancestral line is unknown, but very likely from this Qisi family.-- Jiejunkong 04:16, 2 August 2007 (UTC)