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I've moved the article to Dadoji Konddeo -- this is the widely used English spelling, as Google suggests:
Also, many non-Marathi sources mention him as Dadaji instead of Dadoji [1] [2] [3] http://www.google.com/search?&q=%22Dadaji+Kondadeo%22+-wikipedia.
I somehow don't see that as his primary identification. He was good in politics and diplomacy and he was Shivaji's mentor from this angle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaveri ( talk • contribs) 21:05, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
The section about Dadoji's role as a mentor needs to be rewritten. There is no basis for the claims of Shivaji learning sanskrit from Shahaji in Bangalore at the age of 9.
Kaveri (
talk)
21:25, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
The section 'myth of cut hand' needs to be edited for language. I will do it if I know for sure this section is useful in this article. Personally I do not see it adding any value. Kaveri ( talk) 21:33, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
@ Jonathansammy:lets discuss it here. "Ji" is "honorofic" word. "Ji" in Shivaji is part of name. For example, a child can be named as 'Shivaji', but no one names child as "Daduji", original name is "Dadu", and "Ji" can be added as honorific when child grows up. I will explain more. Wait. -- Human3015 Send WikiLove 22:39, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
Please provide reliable sources where Dadu was used instead of Dadoji or variants ending in Ji. Thanks Jonathansammy ( talk) 19:22, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
Please provide reliable references that Ji is an honorific in the spelling Dadoji otherwise I will have revert the article name to the original Dadoji. Afterall , historic sources all the way from James Grant Duff [1] refer to him as Dadaji! Thanks. Jonathansammy ( talk) 20:35, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
References
Calling him Dadu is a recent thing and looking at the title of one of the publication, Sahyadribana has its own agenda in calling him Dadu. Do you use the name used by historians for over two hundreds or the one by an obscure local publication with a POV to push ? Duff and Sarkar call him Dadaji; If for a moment , I agree that the Ji is honorific then what you are left with is "Dada" and not "Dadu" Jonathansammy ( talk) 13:39, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
Who are "other people" ? Please provide reliable sources. Is Pune mirror considered a reliable source ?? Kondeo has been known by the name Dadaji or variant of it for centuries by eminent historians, who given their background had no reason to use any honorifics, and therefore calling him Dadu because an obscure local newspaper calls him by that name is not acceptable. Please do not bring Purandare, Ambedkar and Thakare into this, they are irrelevant to our discussion. I do not think you have been neutral on this subject at all. Thanks. Jonathansammy ( talk) 15:42, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
References
शिवचरित्र साहित्य खंड ३ मधील ३९९ व्या लेखांकात पुरंदर किल्ल्याची हकीकत आली आहे. तिच्यात शिवाजी महाराजांनी पुरंदरचा किल्लेदार महादाजी नीलकंठराव याला लिहिलेल्या एका पत्राचा उल्लेख आहे. “दादो कोंडदेव आम्हाजवळ वडिली ठेऊन दिल्हे होते, ते मृत्यो पावले, आता आम्ही निराश्रीत झालो’‘ असे त्यात म्हटले आहे.
So Pagdi calls him Dado and that is your basis for turning that into Dadu ?
Agree, Pagdi is eminent but that's only one historian. Most other reliable sources, Indian or Western, through ages call him Dadaji. Shouldn't that be the reaon to revert back to the original name ? Since you mentioned Pune mirror's involvement in the removal of the statue, that in itself makes their use of the name, Dadu, derogatory. Also Pune mirror is a primary source and on Wikipedia we try to stay away from primary sources. My Google search on Dadu Konddeo mostly gave wikippedia, sensational newspaper articles from last ten years or social media hits. So much for Dadu being in widespread use! On the other hand Dadaji or Dadoji had pages of hits that had books by eminent historians such as Sardesai, Sarkar, Duff and others. Purandare, Ambedkar or Thakare are irrelevant here because this is talk page on Dadaji Konddeo. Please feel free to discuss the persons you mention on mine or your talk page. BTW, I had a friend called Sahebrao Jadhav. If he had a Wikipedia article then per "your rules" the article would have been called –––––– Jadhav! Jonathansammy ( talk) 19:53, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
Thanks Jonathansammy ( talk) 19:53, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
शिवचरित्र साहित्य खंड ३ मधील ३९९ व्या लेखांकात पुरंदर किल्ल्याची हकीकत आली आहे. तिच्यात शिवाजी महाराजांनी पुरंदरचा किल्लेदार महादाजी नीलकंठराव याला लिहिलेल्या एका पत्राचा उल्लेख आहे. “दादो कोंडदेव आम्हाजवळ वडिली ठेऊन दिल्हे होते, ते मृत्यो पावले, आता आम्ही निराश्रीत झालो’‘ असे त्यात म्हटले आहे.
Once again, it is Dado and not Dadu in your reference. Also when i looked at other quotes in your reference, the above was the only one calling him Dado. All others references attributed to letters written by Shivaji referred him as Dadaji. So why are you insisting on Dadu ? I agree Vithoba should be changed to Vitthal but this is not the page for that discussion. Thanks Jonathansammy ( talk) 20:59, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
Yes, please. Changing to Dado would be a start. That does not mean you have provided enough reliable sources. Even the Shivaji letter you quote is from a website and not from a peer reviewed journal or a well known historian. Pagdi is the only one who has merit. I , on the other hand, have given you far more reliable references. Since you are involved with WikiProject Maharashtra, please also clean up honorifics from the titles of other names such as Santaji Ghorpade, Tanaji Malusare, Netaji Palkar, Kanhoji Angre, Jijabai Mahadaji Shinde, Yashwantrao Holkar, Yashwantrao Chavan and I can go on and on. I wish you well in this noble cause. Thanks. Jonathansammy ( talk) 21:13, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
I wrote to your page because earlier you complained that I had brought other Maratha personalities in the picture on this page. So in order to keep the issues separate, I thought your page would be more appropriate to talk about changing the names of article on Tanaji, Netaji etc.. Let me know if we have a different forum to discuss removing the honorifics from thee names. May be others can weigh in on the issue too. Thanks. Jonathansammy ( talk) 13:02, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
You do not follow your own rules , do you ? Example is putting lord before Vithoba in your message above. Thanks. Jonathansammy ( talk) 13:05, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
So when do you intend to change Dau to Dado ? Thanks. Jonathansammy ( talk) 13:05, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
I hope Kautilya3 can provide the basis for agreeing to Dadu. Apart from recent newspaper articles arising from the Laine controversy, website references and one reliable reference (who (Pagdi) called him him Dado) , you have not provided a single reference from a reliable historian calling him Dadu. I hope your 50 stalkers can weigh in on the issue by carefully reading all the conversation above.
Here is the list of references that call him Dadaji. They are eminent historians, Indian and Western and not Maharashtrian, who had no need to use an honorific 1. Duff [1]
2. Sarkar History of Aurangzib: Based on Original Sources, Volume 4 [2]
3. Kantak [3]
4. Kantak [4]
5. Sarkar [5]
I challenge other editors to do a search and find instances of calliing him Dadu that are more than 10 years old. Yes, Dado in a few instances but otherwise throughout history he was known by the name Dadaji or Dadoji but mostly Dadaji. I rest my case. Thank you. Jonathansammy ( talk) 17:40, 17 August 2015 (UTC) Jonathansammy ( talk) 17:40, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
References
The result of the move request was: moved to Dadoji Konddeo. Consensus is that it's the common name. Jenks24 ( talk) 20:05, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
Dadu Konddeo →
Dadoji Konddeo – This should have been reverted using technical move, but since there has been a long discussion on it, creating this request. The current name seems to be a "new" name based on
WP:OR that -ji is a
WP:HONORIFIC and thus should be removed. A google search barring wiki mirrors yields
only 30 results overall and zero results on Google News and Books. The earlier name "Dadoji Konddeo" has results in Google books as well as news
[5] and
27,200 hits overall (barring wiki mirrors).
WP:COMMONNAME is evident.--
Redtigerxyz
Talk 18:28, 17 August 2015 (UTC) --Relisted.
Natg 19 (
talk)
23:32, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
![]() | A fact from Dadoji Kondadeo appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 29 November 2006. The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I've moved the article to Dadoji Konddeo -- this is the widely used English spelling, as Google suggests:
Also, many non-Marathi sources mention him as Dadaji instead of Dadoji [1] [2] [3] http://www.google.com/search?&q=%22Dadaji+Kondadeo%22+-wikipedia.
I somehow don't see that as his primary identification. He was good in politics and diplomacy and he was Shivaji's mentor from this angle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaveri ( talk • contribs) 21:05, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
The section about Dadoji's role as a mentor needs to be rewritten. There is no basis for the claims of Shivaji learning sanskrit from Shahaji in Bangalore at the age of 9.
Kaveri (
talk)
21:25, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
The section 'myth of cut hand' needs to be edited for language. I will do it if I know for sure this section is useful in this article. Personally I do not see it adding any value. Kaveri ( talk) 21:33, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
@ Jonathansammy:lets discuss it here. "Ji" is "honorofic" word. "Ji" in Shivaji is part of name. For example, a child can be named as 'Shivaji', but no one names child as "Daduji", original name is "Dadu", and "Ji" can be added as honorific when child grows up. I will explain more. Wait. -- Human3015 Send WikiLove 22:39, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
Please provide reliable sources where Dadu was used instead of Dadoji or variants ending in Ji. Thanks Jonathansammy ( talk) 19:22, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
Please provide reliable references that Ji is an honorific in the spelling Dadoji otherwise I will have revert the article name to the original Dadoji. Afterall , historic sources all the way from James Grant Duff [1] refer to him as Dadaji! Thanks. Jonathansammy ( talk) 20:35, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
References
Calling him Dadu is a recent thing and looking at the title of one of the publication, Sahyadribana has its own agenda in calling him Dadu. Do you use the name used by historians for over two hundreds or the one by an obscure local publication with a POV to push ? Duff and Sarkar call him Dadaji; If for a moment , I agree that the Ji is honorific then what you are left with is "Dada" and not "Dadu" Jonathansammy ( talk) 13:39, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
Who are "other people" ? Please provide reliable sources. Is Pune mirror considered a reliable source ?? Kondeo has been known by the name Dadaji or variant of it for centuries by eminent historians, who given their background had no reason to use any honorifics, and therefore calling him Dadu because an obscure local newspaper calls him by that name is not acceptable. Please do not bring Purandare, Ambedkar and Thakare into this, they are irrelevant to our discussion. I do not think you have been neutral on this subject at all. Thanks. Jonathansammy ( talk) 15:42, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
References
शिवचरित्र साहित्य खंड ३ मधील ३९९ व्या लेखांकात पुरंदर किल्ल्याची हकीकत आली आहे. तिच्यात शिवाजी महाराजांनी पुरंदरचा किल्लेदार महादाजी नीलकंठराव याला लिहिलेल्या एका पत्राचा उल्लेख आहे. “दादो कोंडदेव आम्हाजवळ वडिली ठेऊन दिल्हे होते, ते मृत्यो पावले, आता आम्ही निराश्रीत झालो’‘ असे त्यात म्हटले आहे.
So Pagdi calls him Dado and that is your basis for turning that into Dadu ?
Agree, Pagdi is eminent but that's only one historian. Most other reliable sources, Indian or Western, through ages call him Dadaji. Shouldn't that be the reaon to revert back to the original name ? Since you mentioned Pune mirror's involvement in the removal of the statue, that in itself makes their use of the name, Dadu, derogatory. Also Pune mirror is a primary source and on Wikipedia we try to stay away from primary sources. My Google search on Dadu Konddeo mostly gave wikippedia, sensational newspaper articles from last ten years or social media hits. So much for Dadu being in widespread use! On the other hand Dadaji or Dadoji had pages of hits that had books by eminent historians such as Sardesai, Sarkar, Duff and others. Purandare, Ambedkar or Thakare are irrelevant here because this is talk page on Dadaji Konddeo. Please feel free to discuss the persons you mention on mine or your talk page. BTW, I had a friend called Sahebrao Jadhav. If he had a Wikipedia article then per "your rules" the article would have been called –––––– Jadhav! Jonathansammy ( talk) 19:53, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
Thanks Jonathansammy ( talk) 19:53, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
शिवचरित्र साहित्य खंड ३ मधील ३९९ व्या लेखांकात पुरंदर किल्ल्याची हकीकत आली आहे. तिच्यात शिवाजी महाराजांनी पुरंदरचा किल्लेदार महादाजी नीलकंठराव याला लिहिलेल्या एका पत्राचा उल्लेख आहे. “दादो कोंडदेव आम्हाजवळ वडिली ठेऊन दिल्हे होते, ते मृत्यो पावले, आता आम्ही निराश्रीत झालो’‘ असे त्यात म्हटले आहे.
Once again, it is Dado and not Dadu in your reference. Also when i looked at other quotes in your reference, the above was the only one calling him Dado. All others references attributed to letters written by Shivaji referred him as Dadaji. So why are you insisting on Dadu ? I agree Vithoba should be changed to Vitthal but this is not the page for that discussion. Thanks Jonathansammy ( talk) 20:59, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
Yes, please. Changing to Dado would be a start. That does not mean you have provided enough reliable sources. Even the Shivaji letter you quote is from a website and not from a peer reviewed journal or a well known historian. Pagdi is the only one who has merit. I , on the other hand, have given you far more reliable references. Since you are involved with WikiProject Maharashtra, please also clean up honorifics from the titles of other names such as Santaji Ghorpade, Tanaji Malusare, Netaji Palkar, Kanhoji Angre, Jijabai Mahadaji Shinde, Yashwantrao Holkar, Yashwantrao Chavan and I can go on and on. I wish you well in this noble cause. Thanks. Jonathansammy ( talk) 21:13, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
I wrote to your page because earlier you complained that I had brought other Maratha personalities in the picture on this page. So in order to keep the issues separate, I thought your page would be more appropriate to talk about changing the names of article on Tanaji, Netaji etc.. Let me know if we have a different forum to discuss removing the honorifics from thee names. May be others can weigh in on the issue too. Thanks. Jonathansammy ( talk) 13:02, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
You do not follow your own rules , do you ? Example is putting lord before Vithoba in your message above. Thanks. Jonathansammy ( talk) 13:05, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
So when do you intend to change Dau to Dado ? Thanks. Jonathansammy ( talk) 13:05, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
I hope Kautilya3 can provide the basis for agreeing to Dadu. Apart from recent newspaper articles arising from the Laine controversy, website references and one reliable reference (who (Pagdi) called him him Dado) , you have not provided a single reference from a reliable historian calling him Dadu. I hope your 50 stalkers can weigh in on the issue by carefully reading all the conversation above.
Here is the list of references that call him Dadaji. They are eminent historians, Indian and Western and not Maharashtrian, who had no need to use an honorific 1. Duff [1]
2. Sarkar History of Aurangzib: Based on Original Sources, Volume 4 [2]
3. Kantak [3]
4. Kantak [4]
5. Sarkar [5]
I challenge other editors to do a search and find instances of calliing him Dadu that are more than 10 years old. Yes, Dado in a few instances but otherwise throughout history he was known by the name Dadaji or Dadoji but mostly Dadaji. I rest my case. Thank you. Jonathansammy ( talk) 17:40, 17 August 2015 (UTC) Jonathansammy ( talk) 17:40, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
References
The result of the move request was: moved to Dadoji Konddeo. Consensus is that it's the common name. Jenks24 ( talk) 20:05, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
Dadu Konddeo →
Dadoji Konddeo – This should have been reverted using technical move, but since there has been a long discussion on it, creating this request. The current name seems to be a "new" name based on
WP:OR that -ji is a
WP:HONORIFIC and thus should be removed. A google search barring wiki mirrors yields
only 30 results overall and zero results on Google News and Books. The earlier name "Dadoji Konddeo" has results in Google books as well as news
[5] and
27,200 hits overall (barring wiki mirrors).
WP:COMMONNAME is evident.--
Redtigerxyz
Talk 18:28, 17 August 2015 (UTC) --Relisted.
Natg 19 (
talk)
23:32, 25 August 2015 (UTC)