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Never heard of him, and not sure if he belongs in the article. The edits about him were associated with vandalism. For now, I've put a "citation needed" template next to the sentence about him, but could someone please verify that he's notable as a neo-Sabbatean? He doesn't seem to have his own article at this point. -- AFriedman (talk) 20:45, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
I changed the completion state from "start" to "stub." I also gave the article a "recent events" tag because at this point, I think the article gives WP:Undue weight to newly developed neo-Sabbatean movements such as the Donmeh West. These are noteworthy groups and are good to mention in the article in this level of detail, but the article is missing more important information on the subject such as the several-hundred-year history of the Donmeh, their religion and culture, and their specific contributions to Turkish society. Would anyone be interested in adding some or all of this? -- AFriedman (talk) 20:57, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
Several anonymous Users have repeatedly tried to remove internal links from this article. The links are about subjects that are related to the topic of the article. Why are they being removed? -- AFriedman (talk) 03:42, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
Yes, and it also looks like AnomieBOT deleted most of the content of the page at one point, under the pretext of "fixing reference errors." Perhaps we can discuss these issues with the admins? -- AFriedman (talk) 17:00, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
Shall we go to Wikipedia:Administrators' Noticeboard/Incidents to report the IP addresses which are POV pushing, edit warring and removing internal links? -- AFriedman (talk) 22:38, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
I've reported the IP addresses to Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#Several_anonymous_IP_addresses_in_the_same_location_reported_by_User:AFriedman_.28Result:_.29. I think the problem is mostly limited to the IP addresses and I've mentioned the other pages in question. Does anyone else have suggestions? Hopefully admin action on this will resolve the issue. -- AFriedman (talk) 03:20, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
¶ Actually, this seems to me to be more of a case for WP:Requests for page protection for selected pages. There were some recent constructive edits by a different IP at History of the Jews of Thessaloniki, however; and the troublesome IP seems to have (as he/she often does) relented for a day or two (maybe to do with access to a connection at an Internet café, school, institution or workplace; maybe he or she's in the military and limited that way). I think semi-protection will be declined for several pages until there's a clear string as there has been here and at History of the Jews in Greece. —— Shakescene ( talk) 05:39, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
Böri ( talk) 07:37, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
The article lede contains the statement: "Dönmeh are not officially recognized as such by Jewish authorities." What "Jewish authorities?" - Stevertigo ( t | c) 08:42, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
Merge this article to Crypto-Judaism because it is part of that concept and not a separate one. -- E4024 ( talk) 16:53, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
Within Judaism the Donme would be considered apostate, excommunicate, and not Jewish. Their theology diverged radically from Orthodox Judaism. A big part of donme theology itself was obsessed with the question of the apostasy of their Messiah, and his having been placed outside the Jewish people. Contacts remained with some Jews who remained sympathetic to Sabbateanism after the apostasy, but such Jews were themselves essentially crypto-Sabbateans within Judaism. Because they were not allowed to talk about their continued Sabbatean beliefs and had to hide them themselves. This is different than someone who converts under pressure but maintains Orthodox Jewish beliefs. 2601:140:8900:61D0:E0AA:D1FC:7739:2142 ( talk) 07:12, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
The opening sentence says:
Dönmeh (Turkish: dönme) refers to a group of crypto-Jews in the Ottoman Empire and present-day Turkey who openly affiliated with Islam and secretly practiced a form of Judaism called Sabbateanism.
I am not sure if this is perfectly accurate. Dönme in Turkish can be and have been used in reference to all converts to Islam, not just the ones with an additional secret identity. -- Mttll ( talk) 15:51, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
If they are referring to the followers of Sabbatai Zevi, I'm pretty sure the term "crypto-Jew" is inaccurate. Actually, I think terms like "crypto-Jew" and "crypto-Christian" should be abolished altogether. 96.235.177.63 ( talk) 18:35, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
I have changed the name from Karakaşzade Rüştü to Karakaş Rüştü. I have seen the former source cited Rifat N. Bali, and Bali calls him Karakaş Rüştü, too. so... But I am open to read other arguments. Paradise Chronicle ( talk) 22:15, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
After reviewing the change of content that was just done I decided it was too radical a change of content. The text that was there requested sources for some mild statements. The text that was put in makes some radically different strong arguments in a different direction. Since the subject of the text added is controversial I decided to roll it back, and to open this discussion of the content added here, instead. Thank you, warshy (¥¥) 16:12, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
The claim that Ataturk was a Donmeh is a statement made by the Islamists, who were not satisfied with his reforms, this section needs to be rechecked. 103.169.65.42 ( talk) 16:58, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
Thank you, warshy and Antoine A455bcd9 ! Sigh, this explains a bit about the rumor. That pernicious Sabbatai Tzvi did a lot of damage.
"In an unexpected turn of events, the Dönmeh played a crucial role in the Young Turk movement, the group of modernist revolutionaries who brought down the Ottoman Empire. After the founding of the Turkish Republic, the dönmeh strongly supported the Republican, pro-Western reforms of Atatürk, which wanted to restrict the religious establishment's power and modernize Turkey. One assertion (this was denied by the Turkish government)... was that Kemal Atatürk (1881-1938), the founder of the Modern Turkish State, was of Dönmeh origin. This view was eagerly embraced by many of Atatürk’s religious opponents in Anatolia as a means of discrediting him."
See here for source, The History of the Jews of Turkey.-- FeralOink ( talk) 12:57, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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Never heard of him, and not sure if he belongs in the article. The edits about him were associated with vandalism. For now, I've put a "citation needed" template next to the sentence about him, but could someone please verify that he's notable as a neo-Sabbatean? He doesn't seem to have his own article at this point. -- AFriedman (talk) 20:45, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
I changed the completion state from "start" to "stub." I also gave the article a "recent events" tag because at this point, I think the article gives WP:Undue weight to newly developed neo-Sabbatean movements such as the Donmeh West. These are noteworthy groups and are good to mention in the article in this level of detail, but the article is missing more important information on the subject such as the several-hundred-year history of the Donmeh, their religion and culture, and their specific contributions to Turkish society. Would anyone be interested in adding some or all of this? -- AFriedman (talk) 20:57, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
Several anonymous Users have repeatedly tried to remove internal links from this article. The links are about subjects that are related to the topic of the article. Why are they being removed? -- AFriedman (talk) 03:42, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
Yes, and it also looks like AnomieBOT deleted most of the content of the page at one point, under the pretext of "fixing reference errors." Perhaps we can discuss these issues with the admins? -- AFriedman (talk) 17:00, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
Shall we go to Wikipedia:Administrators' Noticeboard/Incidents to report the IP addresses which are POV pushing, edit warring and removing internal links? -- AFriedman (talk) 22:38, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
I've reported the IP addresses to Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#Several_anonymous_IP_addresses_in_the_same_location_reported_by_User:AFriedman_.28Result:_.29. I think the problem is mostly limited to the IP addresses and I've mentioned the other pages in question. Does anyone else have suggestions? Hopefully admin action on this will resolve the issue. -- AFriedman (talk) 03:20, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
¶ Actually, this seems to me to be more of a case for WP:Requests for page protection for selected pages. There were some recent constructive edits by a different IP at History of the Jews of Thessaloniki, however; and the troublesome IP seems to have (as he/she often does) relented for a day or two (maybe to do with access to a connection at an Internet café, school, institution or workplace; maybe he or she's in the military and limited that way). I think semi-protection will be declined for several pages until there's a clear string as there has been here and at History of the Jews in Greece. —— Shakescene ( talk) 05:39, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
Böri ( talk) 07:37, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
The article lede contains the statement: "Dönmeh are not officially recognized as such by Jewish authorities." What "Jewish authorities?" - Stevertigo ( t | c) 08:42, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
Merge this article to Crypto-Judaism because it is part of that concept and not a separate one. -- E4024 ( talk) 16:53, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
Within Judaism the Donme would be considered apostate, excommunicate, and not Jewish. Their theology diverged radically from Orthodox Judaism. A big part of donme theology itself was obsessed with the question of the apostasy of their Messiah, and his having been placed outside the Jewish people. Contacts remained with some Jews who remained sympathetic to Sabbateanism after the apostasy, but such Jews were themselves essentially crypto-Sabbateans within Judaism. Because they were not allowed to talk about their continued Sabbatean beliefs and had to hide them themselves. This is different than someone who converts under pressure but maintains Orthodox Jewish beliefs. 2601:140:8900:61D0:E0AA:D1FC:7739:2142 ( talk) 07:12, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
The opening sentence says:
Dönmeh (Turkish: dönme) refers to a group of crypto-Jews in the Ottoman Empire and present-day Turkey who openly affiliated with Islam and secretly practiced a form of Judaism called Sabbateanism.
I am not sure if this is perfectly accurate. Dönme in Turkish can be and have been used in reference to all converts to Islam, not just the ones with an additional secret identity. -- Mttll ( talk) 15:51, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
If they are referring to the followers of Sabbatai Zevi, I'm pretty sure the term "crypto-Jew" is inaccurate. Actually, I think terms like "crypto-Jew" and "crypto-Christian" should be abolished altogether. 96.235.177.63 ( talk) 18:35, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
I have changed the name from Karakaşzade Rüştü to Karakaş Rüştü. I have seen the former source cited Rifat N. Bali, and Bali calls him Karakaş Rüştü, too. so... But I am open to read other arguments. Paradise Chronicle ( talk) 22:15, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
After reviewing the change of content that was just done I decided it was too radical a change of content. The text that was there requested sources for some mild statements. The text that was put in makes some radically different strong arguments in a different direction. Since the subject of the text added is controversial I decided to roll it back, and to open this discussion of the content added here, instead. Thank you, warshy (¥¥) 16:12, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
The claim that Ataturk was a Donmeh is a statement made by the Islamists, who were not satisfied with his reforms, this section needs to be rechecked. 103.169.65.42 ( talk) 16:58, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
Thank you, warshy and Antoine A455bcd9 ! Sigh, this explains a bit about the rumor. That pernicious Sabbatai Tzvi did a lot of damage.
"In an unexpected turn of events, the Dönmeh played a crucial role in the Young Turk movement, the group of modernist revolutionaries who brought down the Ottoman Empire. After the founding of the Turkish Republic, the dönmeh strongly supported the Republican, pro-Western reforms of Atatürk, which wanted to restrict the religious establishment's power and modernize Turkey. One assertion (this was denied by the Turkish government)... was that Kemal Atatürk (1881-1938), the founder of the Modern Turkish State, was of Dönmeh origin. This view was eagerly embraced by many of Atatürk’s religious opponents in Anatolia as a means of discrediting him."
See here for source, The History of the Jews of Turkey.-- FeralOink ( talk) 12:57, 12 May 2024 (UTC)