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Peter Ladefoged in SOWL states that Czech Ď, Ň, Ť may be somewhere between palatal and postalveolar, but does not go into detail. Evidently these sounds are not actually palatalized the way, for example, Russian is. Maybe someone who knows what they're doing can tidy this up? kwami 18:51, 2005 August 13 (UTC)
According to es:Alfabeto checo, Czech alphabet should have 31 letters and 11 variants. -- Hello World! 03:19, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
PLease can someone urgently point me in the direction of information about the historical development of the Czech alphabet. When and by who was it standardised? Did this happen all at once, or was it a slow process of development? Mattwhiteski 15:45, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Originally Czech used digraphs for phonemes which are not knows in Latin. Jan Hus is usually mentioned as the author of "De orthographia Bohemica" (1406). In this writing he suggested using diacritics instead of digraphs. This revision was fully accepted as lately as in the 19th century. -- Pajast 13:09, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. Any idea where he got the idea of using diacritics from? Or why he chose particular diacritics for particular sounds? Mattwhiteski 18:46, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Historiographers are not sure whether Jan Hus is the real author of the idea, he may have taken the idea from someone else. There was a need to unify and simplify Czech spelling of the sounds strange to Latin, because various authors had used various spellings before. Since the 10th century, some other Slavic languages have used the Cyrillic alphabet where particular letters correspond to particular sounds. The Czech language has always used the Latin alphabet, and the diacritics appears to be a practical solution (athough there are some problems in using computers sometimes). Jan Hus also criticised Czechs for not distinguishing i-y and l-ł in pronunciation. But these differences have not been kept in Czech up to the present day (unlike Polish). Y have been kept in orthography, but not in pronuncation. -- Pajast 11:09, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Wouldn't Czech "a" correspond more to /ʌ/ than /a/? I remember reading that somewhere, may have been the IPA Handbook, or something. + Hexagon1 ( t) |*̥̲̅ ̲̅†̲̅| |>̲̅-̲̅| 09:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
I reverted some changes made by Hexagon1 and Jan.Kamhenicek, because the the symbols ɼ, ʦ, ʣ, ʧ and ʤ are not official in the latest version of the IPA. They are regarded as obsolete. -- Pajast 06:57, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, you are right. It is possible to mention this as an additional information. But I think that the table should contain official IPA letters. Moreover, IPA is not comonly used by Czech linguists (see: Czech phonetic transcription). The IPA transcription of Czech is most often used for international purposes (as here). -- Pajast 15:47, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I changed the IPA characters [ts] for a single character [ʦ] which I think is more precise (it is a difference if you say [t] and [s] one after another, of if you make a single sound [ʦ]) and it is in accordance with characters used in Czech phonology#Consonants in the script. I did the same with [tʃ] and [ʧ] and other similar characters but you have rewritten them back all. May I ask you for the reason? Jan.Kamenicek 15:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I added some notes below the table. I think that this information is useful. But I stand out for my opinion that the table should contain official letters only.
Please, could you give me advise for the replacement of Unicode? I have no experience in it. Thank you. -- Pajast 10:50, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
This regards the use of ligatures in IPA, which I personally support, as it is indeed possible to pronounce the sounds of [t] and [s] consecutively as separate sounds, and, therefore, in my estimation, they should be employed for the sake of clarity. Is there any specific reason that these are not official members of the International Phoenetic Alphabet? I see no good reason why this change should have been made. -Jacques Rosier —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.117.118.180 ( talk) 00:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Hus did not completely revolutionize diacritics in Czech. His letters from prison include a great deal of cz, sz, etc. He wrote De Orthographia Bohemica, to be sure, but diacritical marks were used before him and were standardized after him. -- 69.17.67.11 18:16, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
You have rewritten the table of the Czech alphabet and also added there allophones of some phonemes. It is clear, that e. g. "ž" ([ʒ], as in the word "život") has an allophone [ʃ] (as in the word "kuráž"). But are you sure that it is true vice versa as well, i. e. "š" ([ʃ] may have an allophone [ʒ]? There are more examples of this ("c", "č"...), but because I am not a linguist, I ask you before I make some changes. Jan.Kamenicek 23:47, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
věštba [vjɛʒdba]
Máš ho v kapse. [ˈmaːʒ ɦo ˈfkapse] (I found this example in the following textbook: Karlík P., Nekula M., Rusínová Z. (eds.) Příruční mluvnice češtiny. Nakladatelství Lidové noviny, Praha 1995. ISBN 80-7106-134-4.
I didn't find any note in any linguistic or phonologic literature that realizations of /š/ as [ʒ] do not occur in Czech. All mention "/š/ ~ /ž/" as a minimal pair without any additional comment.
-- Pajast 09:44, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
/c/ realized as [dz]: leckdo [lɛdzgdo]
/č/ realized as [dʒ]: léčba [lɛːdʒba]
/t/ realized as [d]: svatba [svadba]
/p/ realized as [b], /ť/ realized as [ɟ] – nothing special in the textbook, see my comment below.
-- Pajast 09:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
H h há [ɦ] [x], resp. [h] Ch ch chá [x] [ɣ] or [ɦ]
When are those pronounced that way? - iopq 16:22, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I was under the impression that "u" without an accent or ring was pronounced like IPA /u/ and that ú and ů were simply pronounced for a two-count (/uː/). In fact, when I was teaching English, a lot of my Czech students had trouble making the /ʊ/ sound, often substituting /u/. -- Mwalcoff 23:48, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
No, they were Pražané. -- Mwalcoff 02:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, some were just bydlí v Praze and not native Pražané. But if Czechs consider /u/ and /ʊ/ to be allophones, that would go a ways toward explaining why some students have trouble with words like "hook." It's probably along the same line of why another student of mine kept referring to someone named Vince as "Wince," having trouble distinguishing between the "w" and "v" sounds. -- Mwalcoff 22:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
X is used only in words of foreign origin (and "naturalized" versions of these words still keep this letter – X is not replaced with KS).
G is used only in words of foreign origin + in some (moravian) dialects – "gajdy" (bagpipe), ...
There are only two "really" czech words which contains letter F: doufat (to hope) and zoufat (to despair)
Another letter which cannot be found in standard czech is Ó (long O) – it is used in colloquial czech (sometimes) + in naturalized word of foreign origin – jód (Iodine; jod is also possible), bór (Boron; bor is also possible) ...
see http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abeceda (if you can speek czech) -- 88.102.58.13 15:44, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
The words akademija nauk just mean "academy of sciences" in at least Russian but possibly also other Slavic languages. The most famous one is probably the Russian Academy of Sciences. Is that the one mentioned in the text? - Tournesol ( talk) 12:32, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
I don't see how this could be other than the well known publisher Nauka_(publisher), which was the main scientific publisher of the USSR, which published as the USSR Academy of Sciences Press. That's now changed, but it's still the same publishing house and is associated with the Russian Academy of Sciences. They print lots of things in various translations, and would have had a standard transliteration. MikeyNolan ( talk) 16:36, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
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Peter Ladefoged in SOWL states that Czech Ď, Ň, Ť may be somewhere between palatal and postalveolar, but does not go into detail. Evidently these sounds are not actually palatalized the way, for example, Russian is. Maybe someone who knows what they're doing can tidy this up? kwami 18:51, 2005 August 13 (UTC)
According to es:Alfabeto checo, Czech alphabet should have 31 letters and 11 variants. -- Hello World! 03:19, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
PLease can someone urgently point me in the direction of information about the historical development of the Czech alphabet. When and by who was it standardised? Did this happen all at once, or was it a slow process of development? Mattwhiteski 15:45, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Originally Czech used digraphs for phonemes which are not knows in Latin. Jan Hus is usually mentioned as the author of "De orthographia Bohemica" (1406). In this writing he suggested using diacritics instead of digraphs. This revision was fully accepted as lately as in the 19th century. -- Pajast 13:09, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. Any idea where he got the idea of using diacritics from? Or why he chose particular diacritics for particular sounds? Mattwhiteski 18:46, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Historiographers are not sure whether Jan Hus is the real author of the idea, he may have taken the idea from someone else. There was a need to unify and simplify Czech spelling of the sounds strange to Latin, because various authors had used various spellings before. Since the 10th century, some other Slavic languages have used the Cyrillic alphabet where particular letters correspond to particular sounds. The Czech language has always used the Latin alphabet, and the diacritics appears to be a practical solution (athough there are some problems in using computers sometimes). Jan Hus also criticised Czechs for not distinguishing i-y and l-ł in pronunciation. But these differences have not been kept in Czech up to the present day (unlike Polish). Y have been kept in orthography, but not in pronuncation. -- Pajast 11:09, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Wouldn't Czech "a" correspond more to /ʌ/ than /a/? I remember reading that somewhere, may have been the IPA Handbook, or something. + Hexagon1 ( t) |*̥̲̅ ̲̅†̲̅| |>̲̅-̲̅| 09:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
I reverted some changes made by Hexagon1 and Jan.Kamhenicek, because the the symbols ɼ, ʦ, ʣ, ʧ and ʤ are not official in the latest version of the IPA. They are regarded as obsolete. -- Pajast 06:57, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, you are right. It is possible to mention this as an additional information. But I think that the table should contain official IPA letters. Moreover, IPA is not comonly used by Czech linguists (see: Czech phonetic transcription). The IPA transcription of Czech is most often used for international purposes (as here). -- Pajast 15:47, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I changed the IPA characters [ts] for a single character [ʦ] which I think is more precise (it is a difference if you say [t] and [s] one after another, of if you make a single sound [ʦ]) and it is in accordance with characters used in Czech phonology#Consonants in the script. I did the same with [tʃ] and [ʧ] and other similar characters but you have rewritten them back all. May I ask you for the reason? Jan.Kamenicek 15:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I added some notes below the table. I think that this information is useful. But I stand out for my opinion that the table should contain official letters only.
Please, could you give me advise for the replacement of Unicode? I have no experience in it. Thank you. -- Pajast 10:50, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
This regards the use of ligatures in IPA, which I personally support, as it is indeed possible to pronounce the sounds of [t] and [s] consecutively as separate sounds, and, therefore, in my estimation, they should be employed for the sake of clarity. Is there any specific reason that these are not official members of the International Phoenetic Alphabet? I see no good reason why this change should have been made. -Jacques Rosier —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.117.118.180 ( talk) 00:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Hus did not completely revolutionize diacritics in Czech. His letters from prison include a great deal of cz, sz, etc. He wrote De Orthographia Bohemica, to be sure, but diacritical marks were used before him and were standardized after him. -- 69.17.67.11 18:16, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
You have rewritten the table of the Czech alphabet and also added there allophones of some phonemes. It is clear, that e. g. "ž" ([ʒ], as in the word "život") has an allophone [ʃ] (as in the word "kuráž"). But are you sure that it is true vice versa as well, i. e. "š" ([ʃ] may have an allophone [ʒ]? There are more examples of this ("c", "č"...), but because I am not a linguist, I ask you before I make some changes. Jan.Kamenicek 23:47, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
věštba [vjɛʒdba]
Máš ho v kapse. [ˈmaːʒ ɦo ˈfkapse] (I found this example in the following textbook: Karlík P., Nekula M., Rusínová Z. (eds.) Příruční mluvnice češtiny. Nakladatelství Lidové noviny, Praha 1995. ISBN 80-7106-134-4.
I didn't find any note in any linguistic or phonologic literature that realizations of /š/ as [ʒ] do not occur in Czech. All mention "/š/ ~ /ž/" as a minimal pair without any additional comment.
-- Pajast 09:44, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
/c/ realized as [dz]: leckdo [lɛdzgdo]
/č/ realized as [dʒ]: léčba [lɛːdʒba]
/t/ realized as [d]: svatba [svadba]
/p/ realized as [b], /ť/ realized as [ɟ] – nothing special in the textbook, see my comment below.
-- Pajast 09:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
H h há [ɦ] [x], resp. [h] Ch ch chá [x] [ɣ] or [ɦ]
When are those pronounced that way? - iopq 16:22, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I was under the impression that "u" without an accent or ring was pronounced like IPA /u/ and that ú and ů were simply pronounced for a two-count (/uː/). In fact, when I was teaching English, a lot of my Czech students had trouble making the /ʊ/ sound, often substituting /u/. -- Mwalcoff 23:48, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
No, they were Pražané. -- Mwalcoff 02:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, some were just bydlí v Praze and not native Pražané. But if Czechs consider /u/ and /ʊ/ to be allophones, that would go a ways toward explaining why some students have trouble with words like "hook." It's probably along the same line of why another student of mine kept referring to someone named Vince as "Wince," having trouble distinguishing between the "w" and "v" sounds. -- Mwalcoff 22:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
X is used only in words of foreign origin (and "naturalized" versions of these words still keep this letter – X is not replaced with KS).
G is used only in words of foreign origin + in some (moravian) dialects – "gajdy" (bagpipe), ...
There are only two "really" czech words which contains letter F: doufat (to hope) and zoufat (to despair)
Another letter which cannot be found in standard czech is Ó (long O) – it is used in colloquial czech (sometimes) + in naturalized word of foreign origin – jód (Iodine; jod is also possible), bór (Boron; bor is also possible) ...
see http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abeceda (if you can speek czech) -- 88.102.58.13 15:44, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
The words akademija nauk just mean "academy of sciences" in at least Russian but possibly also other Slavic languages. The most famous one is probably the Russian Academy of Sciences. Is that the one mentioned in the text? - Tournesol ( talk) 12:32, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
I don't see how this could be other than the well known publisher Nauka_(publisher), which was the main scientific publisher of the USSR, which published as the USSR Academy of Sciences Press. That's now changed, but it's still the same publishing house and is associated with the Russian Academy of Sciences. They print lots of things in various translations, and would have had a standard transliteration. MikeyNolan ( talk) 16:36, 6 March 2012 (UTC)