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I've restored the last good version prior to the edit warring. User:Candleabracadabra is invited to discuss his proposed incremental changes here before continuing to edit war. At least two editors have reverted Candleabracadabra, so there is a rough, informal consensus for him to stop editing and to start discussing. I've invited User:Mark Miller here to help moderate the discussion because he is 1) an expert on dispute resolution, 2) familiar with Hawaii-related topics, and 3) an expert when it come to issues with layout, design, and photography. I will abide by whatever decision he arrives at, or by whatever community consensus is formed here. I would also like to invite User:SnowFire to participate as he has also demonstrated a concern with the latest edits. For the sake of discussion, please keep the last good version in place so we can hammer out a consensus for the new proposed edits by Candleabracadabra. Thanks. Viriditas ( talk) 05:57, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps some of the notable Hawaiian fruits and veggies can be grouped together in a gallery below the appropriate section? Some other photo tweaking might be useful. But removing wholesale lots of encyclopedic photos is not constructive to the article. Candleabracadabra ( talk) 23:02, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
(comment moved here from Viriditas talk page by him) You have not explained why you removed the historical photos from the article or why you restored a photo of a hotel building that seems tangential to Hawaiian cuisine. It's unfortunate that you engage in battlefield type tactics instead of engaging in courteous discussion. i started a talk page discussion which you ignored. I think it would be better if you would act in a less rude and dismissive manner and try to work together. I removed a couple of photos per your concerns but you just keep reverting including removal of appropriate wikilinks and clarifications. Do you usually get good results behaving in this manner? Candleabracadabra ( talk) 21:26, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
First of all DO NOT REFACTOR my comments. Thanks.
Here are the photos I added. Unfortunately posting them here they are not in context with the appropriate article sections where I posted them.
Photos removed (on left) after being told there are too many Here are the ones I removed after being told there were too many photos:
Thanks for politely commenting on content below this message and not refactoring my comments. Candleabracadabra ( talk) 03:34, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
Please refactor your comments so that other editors can participate in this duplicated discussion. We are now discussing this topic in three different threads! Please place it as a subthread under the discussion that has attracted the most number of editors so far. Second of all, please either link to the images in text or place them in a table set apart form the text. The way you have it now is not normal for a talk page discussion. Viriditas ( talk) 04:20, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
This is under discussion in the above threads, so I'm not clear why you are duplicating the discussion here. The use of galleries is subject to editorial consensus and WP:IG, which does not appear to have been followed. IMO, galleries in GA/FA's are mostly deprecated as of 2014, except for very isolated or unique article titles. In practice, links to Commons categories have replaced inline galleries. Viriditas ( talk) 04:20, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
You claim that the photo of the Royal Hawaiian hotel is "peripheral" to the article, and you claim that "there isn't much (anything?) in the article on the hotel about cuisine or food". That tells me you haven't even read the section you are criticizing. The photo in question illustrates iconic, late 19th century fin de siècle cuisine in Hawaii, which was known for serving dishes "on par with the best restaurants in Europe, with an 1874 menu offering dishes such as mullet, spring lamb, chicken with tomatoes, and Cabinet Pudding." This was the early antecedent of HRC. I'm sure more can be said about the "Pink Palace" and its importance in introducing haute cuisine in Hawaii. You mention poi and pineapple. Poi is a pre-contact period food and is already alluded to in that section in the image of the taro. Pineapple belongs in the post-contact era section. Viriditas ( talk) 04:29, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
We already have too many photos. Is there any content about ferns and its importance in the diet of Hawaiians? If not, then you are making a weak argument to add yet another image. Viriditas ( talk) 04:32, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
Haupia is an iconic Hawaiian desert. Shave ice is an iconic local food, popularized by Japanese immigrants. More needs to be said about it in the article, and an image is probably needed, but again, there are already too many images, so we will have to pick and choose. I would much rather prefer an image of haupia, if I had to choose. And considering the size and scope of the article, due to length, it is recommended to split the parent into multiple articles as the length grows. For example, a top-level summary style article (this article, Cuisine of Hawaii), a Cuisine of Ancient Hawaii article, Ethnic and local food of Hawaii article, and finally a Hawaii Regional Cuisine article. Shave ice would be fully covered in the ethnic and local food topic, while mentioned in passing in the top-level article (here). Viriditas ( talk) 04:41, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
Your distinction between this and that plate lunch is somewhat meaningless. None of them are traditional, they are categorized as a 20th century local food, post-contact and post-immigration. So please, don't try to depict a non-traditional food as traditional, as that makes no sense. One image of plate lunch is fine, but it would illustrate local food. Viriditas ( talk) 04:44, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
Have you read this article? It is not biased towards touristy depictions of cuisine and it does not lack historical and traditional content. This article relies upon the best and most reliable historical and traditional sources about the cuisine of Hawaii and makes great use of those sources to best represent the most significant claims about the subject. I would like to see you support these claims starting with explaining 1) how it is specifically biased, and 2) what it lacks in terms of historical and traditional content. Judging from your most recent comments, you are confusing the distinction between the different foods presented in this article. Viriditas ( talk) 04:20, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
I don't see anything wrong with the photo or caption. Your question about "why he as opposed to the other proponents" is pictured has to do with the availability of free images. I believe it is important and entirely relevant to have the photo of at least one chef associated with the cuisine of Hawaii, so I disagree that it should be removed. At the end of the day, this is not just about food, it is about the interaction between food and people. Viriditas ( talk) 04:51, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
Candleabracadabra, I've restored the content that I wrote about HRC for this article that you removed and passed off as your own in the daughter article you restored. Please don't do that again. If you want to copy material between articles, you have to attribute in the edit summary per our licensing. I spent a lot of time researching this material in the library and writing it in my own words. Imagine my surprise to find you removing it from this article and copying it to the HRC article with no mention in the edit summary. Don't do that again. If you want to write about HRC, great, do the research and write it in your own words. So far, you've got about two paragraphs of material from less than reliable sources, which is not enough for a separate article at this time. Instead of doing this kind of thing in mainspace, you should focus on creating a sandbox or draft space article and finding the appropriate sources. Travel guides and "For Dummies" books that mention this topic in passing are not ideal. You'll need to go to your library or do actual research online, paying attention to the highest quality sources about the subject. Viriditas ( talk) 12:17, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
Why is there an unsourced section in this article? Viriditas ( talk) 03:34, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
The following unsourced material was placed in the HRC section for some reason. It should be added back into the article in the appropriate place with good sources. If I have time, I may help, but this material was added without sources. Viriditas ( talk) 03:37, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
Don the Beachcomber, a former bootlegger, opened what is acknowledged to be the first of Tiki restaurants, and claims the creation of the mai tai. As servicemen and servicewomen from the Pacific theater of World War II began coming home they brought recipes and tastes that could not be satisfied at the Italian, French, and American restaurants of the era. Tiki restaurants soon began appearing that were often accompanied by tiki bars with tropical drinks. One of these chains that took advantage of this new clientele with a taste for the exotic was run by Trader Vic. Of the 26 restaurants which at one time existed, only a few, such as the Emeryville location, remain. Much of the food served at tiki restaurants is considered to be Cantonese cuisine, but the fusion of Hawaiian ingredients is what made it tiki.
Can the pineapple image be moved up from the 21st century section? What I read says that pineapples are mostly grown elsewhere now. This image or another of related to the pineapple and sugarcane plantations would be better in the section dealing with that period of time. If an image is to be included in the 21st century section I think it should be something with more contemporary significance. I'm not sure what that would be. Candleabracadabra ( talk) 16:10, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
These edits removed a link to plate lunch from the caption of an image of a plate lunch, asserts a claim that there are 5 distinct styles of cuisine in Hawaii, makes the claim that Christian missionaries introduced New England cuisine, but I am not seeing a source for this assertion or the one about whalers introducing salted fish. The phrase this blend of Eastern and Western cuisine formed a "local food" was added. What is meant by "Eastern and Western" cuisine? This is highly unencyclopedic overgeneralized language. What is Eastern cuisine? What about indigenous cuisine? The new wording also refers to char siu bao as a "new ethnic food". It is not a new ethnic food it was an existing Chinese dish that was introduced and acquired a pidgin name. The historic image of Hawaii pineapple packing, loco moco, and lomi salmon were removed. These are all iconic and significant illustration of Hawaii's cuisine, unlike the hotel image that shows architecture of one of many hotel where European cuisine was served. I think these aspects of the edits should be reverted. Candleabracadabra ( talk) 16:34, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
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I propose that Hawaii regional cuisine be merged into Cuisine of Hawaii. There is a short subsection on the subject already existing in this article, and the material in the free-standing article (which is only 4k large) could easily be integrated into that subsection without any significant diminution. 青い(Aoi) ( talk) 22:23, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Cuisine of Hawaii article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2 |
![]() | This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
I've restored the last good version prior to the edit warring. User:Candleabracadabra is invited to discuss his proposed incremental changes here before continuing to edit war. At least two editors have reverted Candleabracadabra, so there is a rough, informal consensus for him to stop editing and to start discussing. I've invited User:Mark Miller here to help moderate the discussion because he is 1) an expert on dispute resolution, 2) familiar with Hawaii-related topics, and 3) an expert when it come to issues with layout, design, and photography. I will abide by whatever decision he arrives at, or by whatever community consensus is formed here. I would also like to invite User:SnowFire to participate as he has also demonstrated a concern with the latest edits. For the sake of discussion, please keep the last good version in place so we can hammer out a consensus for the new proposed edits by Candleabracadabra. Thanks. Viriditas ( talk) 05:57, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps some of the notable Hawaiian fruits and veggies can be grouped together in a gallery below the appropriate section? Some other photo tweaking might be useful. But removing wholesale lots of encyclopedic photos is not constructive to the article. Candleabracadabra ( talk) 23:02, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
(comment moved here from Viriditas talk page by him) You have not explained why you removed the historical photos from the article or why you restored a photo of a hotel building that seems tangential to Hawaiian cuisine. It's unfortunate that you engage in battlefield type tactics instead of engaging in courteous discussion. i started a talk page discussion which you ignored. I think it would be better if you would act in a less rude and dismissive manner and try to work together. I removed a couple of photos per your concerns but you just keep reverting including removal of appropriate wikilinks and clarifications. Do you usually get good results behaving in this manner? Candleabracadabra ( talk) 21:26, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
First of all DO NOT REFACTOR my comments. Thanks.
Here are the photos I added. Unfortunately posting them here they are not in context with the appropriate article sections where I posted them.
Photos removed (on left) after being told there are too many Here are the ones I removed after being told there were too many photos:
Thanks for politely commenting on content below this message and not refactoring my comments. Candleabracadabra ( talk) 03:34, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
Please refactor your comments so that other editors can participate in this duplicated discussion. We are now discussing this topic in three different threads! Please place it as a subthread under the discussion that has attracted the most number of editors so far. Second of all, please either link to the images in text or place them in a table set apart form the text. The way you have it now is not normal for a talk page discussion. Viriditas ( talk) 04:20, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
This is under discussion in the above threads, so I'm not clear why you are duplicating the discussion here. The use of galleries is subject to editorial consensus and WP:IG, which does not appear to have been followed. IMO, galleries in GA/FA's are mostly deprecated as of 2014, except for very isolated or unique article titles. In practice, links to Commons categories have replaced inline galleries. Viriditas ( talk) 04:20, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
You claim that the photo of the Royal Hawaiian hotel is "peripheral" to the article, and you claim that "there isn't much (anything?) in the article on the hotel about cuisine or food". That tells me you haven't even read the section you are criticizing. The photo in question illustrates iconic, late 19th century fin de siècle cuisine in Hawaii, which was known for serving dishes "on par with the best restaurants in Europe, with an 1874 menu offering dishes such as mullet, spring lamb, chicken with tomatoes, and Cabinet Pudding." This was the early antecedent of HRC. I'm sure more can be said about the "Pink Palace" and its importance in introducing haute cuisine in Hawaii. You mention poi and pineapple. Poi is a pre-contact period food and is already alluded to in that section in the image of the taro. Pineapple belongs in the post-contact era section. Viriditas ( talk) 04:29, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
We already have too many photos. Is there any content about ferns and its importance in the diet of Hawaiians? If not, then you are making a weak argument to add yet another image. Viriditas ( talk) 04:32, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
Haupia is an iconic Hawaiian desert. Shave ice is an iconic local food, popularized by Japanese immigrants. More needs to be said about it in the article, and an image is probably needed, but again, there are already too many images, so we will have to pick and choose. I would much rather prefer an image of haupia, if I had to choose. And considering the size and scope of the article, due to length, it is recommended to split the parent into multiple articles as the length grows. For example, a top-level summary style article (this article, Cuisine of Hawaii), a Cuisine of Ancient Hawaii article, Ethnic and local food of Hawaii article, and finally a Hawaii Regional Cuisine article. Shave ice would be fully covered in the ethnic and local food topic, while mentioned in passing in the top-level article (here). Viriditas ( talk) 04:41, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
Your distinction between this and that plate lunch is somewhat meaningless. None of them are traditional, they are categorized as a 20th century local food, post-contact and post-immigration. So please, don't try to depict a non-traditional food as traditional, as that makes no sense. One image of plate lunch is fine, but it would illustrate local food. Viriditas ( talk) 04:44, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
Have you read this article? It is not biased towards touristy depictions of cuisine and it does not lack historical and traditional content. This article relies upon the best and most reliable historical and traditional sources about the cuisine of Hawaii and makes great use of those sources to best represent the most significant claims about the subject. I would like to see you support these claims starting with explaining 1) how it is specifically biased, and 2) what it lacks in terms of historical and traditional content. Judging from your most recent comments, you are confusing the distinction between the different foods presented in this article. Viriditas ( talk) 04:20, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
I don't see anything wrong with the photo or caption. Your question about "why he as opposed to the other proponents" is pictured has to do with the availability of free images. I believe it is important and entirely relevant to have the photo of at least one chef associated with the cuisine of Hawaii, so I disagree that it should be removed. At the end of the day, this is not just about food, it is about the interaction between food and people. Viriditas ( talk) 04:51, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
Candleabracadabra, I've restored the content that I wrote about HRC for this article that you removed and passed off as your own in the daughter article you restored. Please don't do that again. If you want to copy material between articles, you have to attribute in the edit summary per our licensing. I spent a lot of time researching this material in the library and writing it in my own words. Imagine my surprise to find you removing it from this article and copying it to the HRC article with no mention in the edit summary. Don't do that again. If you want to write about HRC, great, do the research and write it in your own words. So far, you've got about two paragraphs of material from less than reliable sources, which is not enough for a separate article at this time. Instead of doing this kind of thing in mainspace, you should focus on creating a sandbox or draft space article and finding the appropriate sources. Travel guides and "For Dummies" books that mention this topic in passing are not ideal. You'll need to go to your library or do actual research online, paying attention to the highest quality sources about the subject. Viriditas ( talk) 12:17, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
Why is there an unsourced section in this article? Viriditas ( talk) 03:34, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
The following unsourced material was placed in the HRC section for some reason. It should be added back into the article in the appropriate place with good sources. If I have time, I may help, but this material was added without sources. Viriditas ( talk) 03:37, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
Don the Beachcomber, a former bootlegger, opened what is acknowledged to be the first of Tiki restaurants, and claims the creation of the mai tai. As servicemen and servicewomen from the Pacific theater of World War II began coming home they brought recipes and tastes that could not be satisfied at the Italian, French, and American restaurants of the era. Tiki restaurants soon began appearing that were often accompanied by tiki bars with tropical drinks. One of these chains that took advantage of this new clientele with a taste for the exotic was run by Trader Vic. Of the 26 restaurants which at one time existed, only a few, such as the Emeryville location, remain. Much of the food served at tiki restaurants is considered to be Cantonese cuisine, but the fusion of Hawaiian ingredients is what made it tiki.
Can the pineapple image be moved up from the 21st century section? What I read says that pineapples are mostly grown elsewhere now. This image or another of related to the pineapple and sugarcane plantations would be better in the section dealing with that period of time. If an image is to be included in the 21st century section I think it should be something with more contemporary significance. I'm not sure what that would be. Candleabracadabra ( talk) 16:10, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
These edits removed a link to plate lunch from the caption of an image of a plate lunch, asserts a claim that there are 5 distinct styles of cuisine in Hawaii, makes the claim that Christian missionaries introduced New England cuisine, but I am not seeing a source for this assertion or the one about whalers introducing salted fish. The phrase this blend of Eastern and Western cuisine formed a "local food" was added. What is meant by "Eastern and Western" cuisine? This is highly unencyclopedic overgeneralized language. What is Eastern cuisine? What about indigenous cuisine? The new wording also refers to char siu bao as a "new ethnic food". It is not a new ethnic food it was an existing Chinese dish that was introduced and acquired a pidgin name. The historic image of Hawaii pineapple packing, loco moco, and lomi salmon were removed. These are all iconic and significant illustration of Hawaii's cuisine, unlike the hotel image that shows architecture of one of many hotel where European cuisine was served. I think these aspects of the edits should be reverted. Candleabracadabra ( talk) 16:34, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Cuisine of Hawaii. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 07:47, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
I propose that Hawaii regional cuisine be merged into Cuisine of Hawaii. There is a short subsection on the subject already existing in this article, and the material in the free-standing article (which is only 4k large) could easily be integrated into that subsection without any significant diminution. 青い(Aoi) ( talk) 22:23, 22 September 2017 (UTC)