![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I don't understand what's the fuss about Cuba and Fidel Castro here (every newspaper is talking about). Any decent person with a minimum IQ can understand that Cubans suffer a lot at the hand of the communists. I lived 27 years in a Eastern European communist country and I know exactly what I am talking about. (Gore)
Bruce's bleatings about "civility" are just a cover for his political agenda, which is to prevent the truth about the Castro dictatorship appearing at Wikipedia. I treat them with the contempt they deserve. My dictionary defines "verify" as "prove, confirm truth of." Wikipedia is about what is (a) true and (b) can be shown to be true. Adam 00:51, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
When I get time this evening I will do a new edit of both this article and Elections in Cuba, based on the text I proposed (above) as part of the failed attempt at a settlement with the pro-Castro faction (which now seems to consist of Bruce and Michael, with Zleitzen occupying a neutralist position). I think this is a very fair and balanced text. However my offer to delete the description of Cuba's political status in the opening paragraph in exchange for an agreed text is now withdrawn, so that will stay. Adam 03:50, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
But you did respond, Zleitzen. You specifically said that you would not write a "why Cuba is a democracy" section for my text. If you have changed your mind about that, fine. Adam 04:20, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Once again you are most obtusely misrepresenting what I asked you to do. I didn't ask you to say why you think Cuba is a democracy (if indeed you do). I asked you to complete the sentence "The Cuban Government and its supporters argue that Cuba is a democracy because..." In other words, to summarise the argument that Cuba is a democracy, as a balancing section to the text saying that by most objective criteria Cuba is a not a democracy. I am perfectly capable of writing it myself, but I was trying to be as accommodating as possible to the pro-Castro faction by asking them to write it themselves rather than have me paraphrase their arguments for them. But if none of you / them are willing or able to do so, I will do it myself. I for one am trying to bring this extremely tiresome process to an end. Adam 04:43, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Merecat, I agree with your characterization of Cuba's political system. Still, notice that in other sourcebooks, such as any encyclopedia or The World Almanac, under the description "government-type" the Cuba and other Communist regimes are either described as "republics" "federal republics" (in the case of the Soviet Union) or "Communist states." It is widely understood that these terms are often fig-leaves in the context of describing a "government-type." At any rate, thanks for your contributions to the talk page. It's a relief to see another well-informed user watching things around here. 172 | Talk 18:26, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Our mediation has been pending since April 28, waiting it appears, for a response from Adam. I point your attention here in case you missed it. BruceHallman 13:34, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd be intrigued to discover why you find Jimmy Carter an important commentator on the Cuban democracy debate. Whilst you find Chavez and Humala (fellow Bolivarians with opposing views) irrelevant? My reading of this would be the reverse. Personally I have little interest in what an ex US president of nearly 30 years has to say on the matter. Whilst Chavez, and to a lesser extent Humala, are presently altering the international political landscape. -- Zleitzen 17:23, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Adam Carr, excellent work once again. Keep up the work. 172 | Talk 18:21, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. Zleitzen weakens his credibility in my eyes by questioning the relevance of Carter's comments, let alone comparing him to Chavez. Since the end of his (very mediocre) presidency, Carter has rehabilitated himself as a democracy watchdog of undoubted integrity and considerable courage. His opinion on such matters is relevant and important. Chavez is a sleazy demagogue and thug who admires Castro only because he too would like to be president-for-life. Adam 23:56, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with you that Carter is anti-US, but if you are right then that gives his comments even more weight, no? Adam 00:29, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I have quoted the opinion of the OAS's human rights body, who are much better qualified to comment than Chavez. Note that I have refrained from quoting anyone in the current US administration, or from Freedom House or the NED, although they have had plenty to say that I could have used. Adam 01:22, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm not satisfied with Adam's rewrite of the goverment section. I'm also extremly displeased that in opening paragraph of the article Adam insists that there should be a sentence "only country ... that is not democracy" without other point of view. It would be much better, neutrality wise, that that sentence should be deleted. But it is much worse that should it stays there as if it's a fact. If it's disputed, it should not be mentioned. Also, it's highly hypocritical writing something like "by Latin American standards, Batista was a mild dictator". Dictator is a dictator. A mild one ... What's a criteria for this? He killed only few of his opponents opposed to other Latin American dictators? This sentence clearly has no place in encyclopedia article. My opinion that writing things like these is confronting Wikipedia's policies and does not confront with
WP:NPOV
But after engaging in this discussion for only few days I became tired. Tired of the fact that what ever I say, it wont make a difference, because Adam and 172 and others will proceede to do what ever they like to do, write in this article to their liking and unilateraly.
Adam, I understand that you are a historian. You may be a great historian, but that does not make you a great writer of encyclopedia articles.--
RockyMM
12:43, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Now that we seem to have fixed up the History, Politics and Human Rights sections, the remaining problems are:
You've been working pretty hard here. If you're running short of time, I can volunteer to fix up at least the economy section, weaving together information from World Bank reports and the CIA Factbook entry (though, to be honest, I hope you do all the work!). The one section on which I wouldn't be to qualified to help is culture. 172 | Talk 06:24, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
You're welcome to the economy. But (loud whisper) don't mention the CIA! Adam 06:36, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I just rewrote the economy section. It's not the most inspired writing, but it didn't take much to improve the section. The economy section was particularly bad. (By the way, the old section actually included a link to a Granma article!) 172 | Talk 09:15, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
On a related note, economy of Cuba also needs a clean-up. Most of the text there is not unsalvageable. Still, the article (predictably) does in detail extolling Cuba's "world-class biotechnology and pharmaceutical industry" while not mentioning the word "rationing" even once! 172 | Talk 09:55, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the embargo and its effect on the economy need to be discussed. While revolutionary regimes which claim to reject the world capitalist system can't really complain when that system takes them at their word and excludes them, the loss of Cuba's most natural export market and source of investment (the US) has obviously had a major impact on its economy. But ultimately, of course, Cuba's poverty is Castro's fault, because the embargo, however misguided, is a response to his undemocratic regime. When Castro came to power, Cuba and Puerto Rico had roughly comparable standards of living. Today Puerto Rico is six times wealthier than Cuba per capita in per capita GDP, although I concede that in Cuba the poverty is more evenly distributed. If Castro had never come to power, Cuba would by now not only be a democracy, it would be at least as rich as Puerto Rico and probably richer. (Don't worry, comrades, I'm not going to try to put that in the article.) I'm also struck by 172's assertion that Cuba is a net importer of sugar. What is his source? The FAO doesn't seem to support this. Adam 13:27, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Maybe as an archive worker I'm being a bit sensitive but I am finding it a tad disturbing that the archives of this discussion are being manipulated, probably by Adam and his allies. Last time I dropped by I wrote some comments, under the heading 'The Cold War continues...', on Adam's claims to be the standard bearer of the truth round here. The next time I looked a new page had been started, and the last section of the previous page, (now Archive 5) had been broken up by subheadings all of which begin with 'Bruce complains about...'. My contribution and Bletch's response had completely disappeared and the end of the previous section been merged with the contributions that followed, and copied over to form the top of this page. Strategic duplication?
Looking further I noticed that each of the four archive pages formed since Adam's arrival here had two things in common, Adam had been the last or last but one contributor, and the histories of the pages almost totally erased. Care to tell us how you did it, Adam? Care to tell us how it tallies with your commitment to facts and truth?
To respond to an earlier bit of empty rhetoric - who cares what Adam thinks? Back after a while away I see nothing much has changed. Those sympathetic to socialist Cuba are dismissed as apologists and/or naive, while those critical are describing 'reality', 'the truth' and saying certain things are'obvious' or 'factual'. Bruce is described (by an unchallenged sockpuppet) as frustrating when he is clearly reacting from a sense of frustration. Adam damns him as a communist, rather than, more generously,patronise him as naive. What qualifies you, Adam, to claim to be writing something 'factual'? All you will do is present the arguments you consider relevant, while ignoring the ones which weaken the POV you are trying to assert. What is factual about that? You have shown over and over that your definition of democracy pertains solely to the method by which governments are chosen and ignores the actual social and economic structures within which those governments work. By keeping the focus of the argument on the definition of democracy as you define it you avoid dealing with issues like the value of a balloted vote as opposed to the raw economic power of private ownership.
How much time do you want to spend trying to convince us that you, and only you, know best? It appears to me that you aren't interested in a solution to this page's problems. No matter what you write, no matter how accurate it is within the limits that you set, the perspectives that look beyond your limits aren't going to fade away, simply because you and your supporters insist that they do so. 172 promised you an edit war when he asked for your assistance. Is that what you are here for? the fight? Your continuing displays of contempt for those who dare disagree with you suggests that this is so and that you see the discussions here strictly in terms of win or lose, rather than a struggle to reach agreement. MichaelW 01:16, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me, but I would like to point out, to whomever is in charge of this topic, that concerning economy PROSTITUTION and WAGES in real dollars should be mentioned. Prostitution is widespread, and sex-tourism is depended upon by many citizens. A high wage, in CUBA, is 5 dollars. 5 dollars! Now, politically, statements should be made concerning its government, that is a totalitarian regime, a dictatorship, but different from others. It's a different system, but a totalitarian none the less. 12:27, 2 May 2006. (I'm Ippet Iset).
The present citation for the 'not a democracy' phrase is this CIDH link. That citation does not even include one instance of the use or the word 'democracy' or 'democratic'. For that reason, that citation appears to be not pertinent. BruceHallman 18:04, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I propose a gentlemen's agreement to quickly make things run more smoothly here. I'll agree to abstain forever from editing any Cuba-related articles if BruceHallman does the same. It's a tit-for-tat deal that'll make things easier for all of us (especially the two of us). 172 | Talk 21:06, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
References indeed need to be checked. I googled "human rights + Cuba" and more than half the references I got were about Guantanamo Bay. So much for 11 million Cubans. By the way, what does "El Gran Comepinga" mean? Adam 01:57, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Zleitzen, in your zeal to remove my edits, you also removed a needed clarification of Roosevelt as US president, and re-introduced a derogatory term describing Castro . Please explain to me how this addition is not relevant...
US-Cuba relations are riddled throughout the history of Cuba section. If this is not the right section, then what is? I am not vandalizing. I'm attempting to present a clear and accurate (and cited!) account. -- Mcmachete 05:43, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Good idea, Adam. Merecat 08:19, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Zleitzen, I'm glad you agree that there is systemic anti-US and left-wing bias on the internet (these two terms have now become synonymous, of course, thanks to G W Bush). Now all we need is for you to acknowledge that this is also true at Wikipedia. PMA has just been telling me that pro-communist editors (whom I only half-jokingly call the Communist Party of Wikipedia and who have made the prolonged battle at this article necessary), are also active at the articles on Lenin, Stalin and elsewhere. This is going to become a very serious problem for Wikipedia as it becomeas more and more widely read. Sooner or later Wikipedia's rules will need to be changed to prevent this kind of systematic political manipulation - not just by communists of course, but they are are worst offenders at present. Adam 12:30, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
BTW, Adam, did you see my response regarding the "Economy" section? Let me know if there's anything else I can do if you're interested in easing your workload here. 172 | Talk 13:05, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
172, I don't regard editing Wikipedia as work, I regard it as fun. In response to Zleitzen: It depends on what you mean by "bias." Of course there is a US bias at Wikipedia in the sense that the majority of its editors are Americans, who are naturally preoccupied with the things that interest Americans, which is why movie stars and computer games have articles larger than those for African presidents. But the demographics of American Wikipedians are overwhelmingly affluent and highly educated, which means that they share the general left-liberal views of that demographic. So of course do I in many respects, but I have been trained in a school of anti-communist social democratic politics (specifically the right wing of the [[Australian Labor Party), after having been a communist in my (now rather distant) youth. I am also a trained historian (not that I'm allowed to say that at Wikipedia of course), and I know a lot of the foul history of communism in great detail. This particular combination of biographical circumstances makes me both more aware than the average Wikipedian of the creeping left bias here, and more determined to do something about it. You say that "Editing here shouldn't be a crusade of ideologies, it should be about scientific verifiability and NPOV balance." I agree in the abstract, but what is one to do when confronted by fools like ScottGrayban or hypocritical, devious Castro apologists like Bruce? (Yes Bruce, I am being uncivil - so sue me). When you're on a slippery slope, achieving balance requires a deliberate struggle. (I'm logging off now so you have 11 hours or so to respond :) ) Adam 13:41, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Adam, you are mistaken to argue: "But the demographics of American Wikipedians are overwhelmingly affluent and highly educated, which means that they share the general left-liberal views of that demographic". Just the opposite is true. See this
data from the American National Election Studies Center for Political Studies at the University of Michigan. High income people are 2 1/2 times more likely to self identify as conservative. Also, the highly educated are 5 times more likely to self identify as conservative. You neglected to mention that Wikipedians tend to be male, and males are almost 50% more likely to self identify as conservative. You are right about 'systemic bias' problems in Wikipedia, but you have flipped your version of 'truth' exactly backwards from the data.
BruceHallman
20:27, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Dot bombed computer geeks are not that affluent, which would explain your observations of a lean to the left. Joking aside, if for no other reason than we 99.9% belong to capitalistic societies, Wikipedians inevitably have a systemic bias against a non-capitalist society. And, we must put hate of Fidel on the shelf and try to objectively edit neutrality in the article. BruceHallman 21:24, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I've been reading through this page and am really amused of the polarizing effect that Castro's whatever-you-call-it government still have among the academic ranks. But as a Cuban and a journalist, I will really appreciate that those editing the Cuba page stick to the facts. First, I don’t think that even Fidel Castro believes that his government is a democracy, especially since he has defined his socialist revolution, quoting Lenin, as a “Dictatorship of the Proletariat”. Secondly, even if you sympathize with his revolution and his politics, you cannot ignore the facts that his government punishes peaceful dissent with jail time, suppresses free speech and free press, and is a one-party autocracy. POVs have no place in a balanced and fair report, which is what a Wikipedia entry should be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.9.33.121 ( talk • contribs)
Good morning, comrades. "Dictatorship of the proletariat" means the dictatorship of the proletariat over the bourgeoisie, and is seen as a transitional stage on the way to classless, stateless, communist society. In the meantime, as Lenin said, "the state is a stick," and can be used against all enemies of the revolution without restraint. The facade of parliamentary government, modelled on the Stalin Constitution of 1936, is designed to fool the Bruces of this world (and obviously succeeds), but all good Leninists understand that it is a facade for the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat, as represented by its vanguard party. Adam 01:10, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
If Bruce is going to spend his time here defending one the world's most disgusting dictatorships through endless obfuscation and delaying tactics, he has to expect a certain amount of political criticism. I get of plenty of it too - the difference is that I don't whinge about it all the time. Adam 03:10, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Adam accused Bruce of engaging in "obfuscation and delaying tactics". Other editors should bear in mind that it is Adam not Bruce that is holding up the much needed mediation process [9]. See below:
Pending acceptance. User:Adam Carr stated that he "reserve[s] [his] rights"; I'm concerned about the intended meaning of this phrase, as it suggests to me that the level of agreement necessary to have a productive mediation may not be present. I'd like Adam to clarify his intent before the matter is assigned to a mediator. Essjay ( Talk • Connect) 16:49, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Here is an extract from the Soviet Constitution of 1936 (the "Stalin Constitution"). The similarities with the corresponding sections of the Cuban Constitition, particularly Article 141 dealing with candidate selection, will be obvious to all.
Is it Bruce and Michael's opinion that the USSR under Stalin was also a democracy? Adam 05:26, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
It has everything to do with the topic at hand, which is whether Cuba is a democracy. Bruce bases his claim that Cuba is a democracy on the formal provisions of the Cuban Constitution - secret ballot, people's assemblies, mass organisations etc etc. I argue that any dictator can write a democratic constitution, but the text must be viewed in the light of the realities of political power in the country in question. The fact that Stalin, one of the most murderous despots in history, who was about to carry out his Great Purges in which millions died, could promulgate a lovely democratic constitution, and have large numbers of 1930s Bruces singing his praises, proves my point. Adam 08:03, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Dear me, Michael is even worse than Bruce. No personality cult of Fidel? The Communist Party has never substituted itself for civil society? Words fail me in responding to such stupidity, which is probably just as well. This is a country where the entire population is made to sit up all night watching Fidel make five-hour speeches (even Stalin never did that), and in which anyone who doesn't comply is reported to the police by their friendly neighbourhood Committee of the Defence of the Revolution. In some ways Cuba is a more tightly regulated society than the USSR was. In any case, the "personality cult" of Stalin or Fidel is only a minor epiphenomenon of the Communist system. Much more to the point is the party's monopoly of physical coercion, its exemption from legal restraint in the use of that monopoly, its complete colonisation of civil society, and its total control of the media. In all of these Cuba is a typical, classical, Stalinist state. Just because its cultural style is a bit more flamboyant than East Germany's, and its PR more sophisticated than North Korea's, doesn't mean that the substance is not the same. Adam 08:47, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I notice that 172 in his rewrite of the economy section has removed all mention of the organic and urban agriculture/horticulture initiatives which were an essential part of Cuba's response to the loss of Soviet support Yeah right. Reverting back to subsistence farming-- that sounds like a great way to deal with shortages of basic means of subsistence (sarcasm). Those "organic and urban agriculture/horticulture initiatives" are only evidence of the degree to which the Cuban economy has been utterly ruined. 172 | Talk 09:00, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Adam, I don't know why you keep complaining about my personal beliefs, (1) you don't know my personal beliefs, (2) they are irrelevant. You are the one who incessantly keeps trying to edit in the article the personal belief that Cuba is not a democracy, without citation or consensus. You are the one that repeated deletes my requests for citation of the verifiablity of your belief without providing citation. The burden of proof is on you to prove your point, and despite weeks of trying you have failed. Perhaps you should consider just giving it a rest for a while, we can always come back to the issue later. BruceHallman 13:56, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Whatever. You know what you're up to, Bruce, and I know what you're up to, so do spare us your line of tripe. "Urban gardening movement" - I do like that. The growth of the urban gardening movement in Cuba is indeed indisputable, and what is that a sign of? A country that can't feed itself. Ah the joys of socialism. Wartime Britain had the excuse of having half its shipping sunk by U-boats. Cuba's problem is that it's had to give the whole island over to sugar production to pay its bills (and I acknowledge that problem long predates Castro), but now the sugar market is glutted and it can't produce enough of anything else to pay for its food imports. As I said before, Cuba and Puerto Rico had roughly equivalent economies and standards of living 50 years ago, but now Puerto Rico, thoroughly integrated into the evil capitalist system, has a booming service economy and is six times wealthier than Cuba in terms of per capita GDP. Socialist autarky was proved decades ago to be a miserable failure, and only Castro and Kim Jong-il persist with it. I doubt the members of the politburo have to grow their own veggies. Adam 14:46, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Adam, you again and again are fixated on what Cuba is not. Obviously, Cuba's economy is a 'miserable failure' when measured against the premise of a capitalistic yardstick. You are making a false analogy which is a logical fallacy. We should just describe Cuba for what it is, as opposed to what it is not. BruceHallman 15:39, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
This argument is absurd. The "urban gardening movement" is the Cuban equivalent of the Soviet apartment dwellers who lived off of onions and potatoes grown on thier window-sills-- not because they were interested in "organic farming" (whatever the hell that stupid yuppie cliche means) but because of severe shortages of food in the ration system. The "urban gardening movement," if it is to be mentioned in this article, will only be mentioned to illustrate the fact that many urban dwellers have been forced by the regime, given the near-complete destruction of Cuba's economic infastructure, to resort to subsistence farming for survival. 172 | Talk 04:19, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
This is utter nonsense. "Urban gardening" is nothing more than urban subsistence farming made necessary because of the failure of the ration system. The "organic" part is a code word for the government's failure to provide essential fertilizers, and a propaganda facade meant to co-opt support from the greenies in the rich Northern countries. 172 | Talk 19:31, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
<the only state in the western hemisphere that is not a democracy> - cite needed - CIA world factbook lists Cuba as the only Communist State in the Western Hemisphere. Same factbook lists a range of gov't types - not all 'pure democracies'. The bigger question, however, is what do we mean by democracy? Some places are democratic in name only. The only accurate statement is to say they are the only Communist State. Bridesmill 19:55, 4 May 2006 (UTC) you are full of crap
Cuba is an authoritarian state under the guise of a democratic republic. Here's the latest mention of Cuba as an "authoritarian state" (ironically by someone named MARX no less) [19]. I've provided citations before in these Cuba:Talk pages, and I would be happy to provide them again. Wikipedia should not be used to disseminate Castro's propaganda (or ANY propaganda for that matter), but simply present all facts. It's bad enough that Castro's daily speeches and control of all Cuban media have brainwashed some Cubans who don't know better. That should not happen here. -- Mcmachete 21:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
So what would count as 'a neutral source'? The only ones I can think of who would call Cuba anything other than a communist state are anything 'but' neutral. Britannica calls it a 'Communist republic', HRW - Communist State. Gov't of Canda calls it s Socialist State. Unfortunately, though I agree that Cuba is an authoritarian state, that is more of an assessment than a statement of fact. Bridesmill 22:37, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
'Authoritarian state', like 'democracy' are not binary, black or white qualitites. Cuba is more authoritarian than most other countries. Is Cuba infinitely authoritarian? No. How does being somewhat authoritarian then prove that Cuba is not a democracy? Cuba does have elections with secret ballots and all people have the freedom to vote no on any and all candidates. That seems clearly to be a type of democracy, although I would hear arguments that it is a less than perfect type of democracy. BruceHallman 23:58, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
What a charming page to visit....don't normally get this kind of comment on WP. Are the gutlessly annonymous peanut gallery comments usually like this here? Having spent a fair bit of time living in a former communist country, I can assure you that the 'name' of 'democracy' is totally sham and the people who live there do not actually believe it. No internationally recognized body calls them a democracy, so why pretend they are. Then again, some of the 'democracies' in the western hemisphere aren't exactly wondrous either (and no I'm not thinking about the US). On the other hand, the 'authoritarian' argument is also a dead end because it is all a matter of degree. They 'are' a socialist republic, they are the only 'socialist republic' in the western hemisphere. My recommendation is to call it 'the only socialist republic in the western hemisphere - and let those who wish to discuss the merits or lack thereof of soc republics do so on that page - IMHO the only way to keep the politics off a page where they don't belong if it wants to stay NPOV. Bridesmill 01:22, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
There is of course some room for doubt in both cases, but I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to struggling democracies where this is possible. I have never said that every state in the Americas other than Cuba is a perfect democracy. The U.S. electoral system, to take the most obvious case, has serious deficiencies. There were serious problems in Haiti, but you have to make some allowances for the very weak infrastructure and deep-seated social problems they are trying to overcome. Cuba is the only country in the Americas which has deliberately set out to prevent choice, which is the essence of democracy. Before I started dealing with people like Bruce, Michael and now Carl, I wouldn't have thought anyone other than an out-and-out communist would deispute this. (I note by the way that Bruce has not actually denied being a communist despite my best efforts to provoke him). Adam 13:05, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
It is not good enough to say that Cuba is a single-party state. It is possible in theory to have a democracy in which there is only one party, if no-one feels like forming a second party. Singapore comes close to being a one-party democracy, but people are free to form other parties if they want. This is not so in Cuba. What makes Cuba unique in its region is what it is not - it is not a democracy. Adam 05:46, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
<this is a perfectly simple and accurate statement, to which a grand total of two people are objecting, holding the whole article hostage. this is unacceptable> I don't believe it is 'perfectly simple' - it would be if we lived in a perfect black/white pigeonhole world but we don't. Nor does it appear to be only two people objecting. WHy reject a workable edit (and hold an article hostage) based on one word which cannot be proven, and if you are going to revert, why not revert the {fact} tag that your version by definition requires? Item - negative proofs are darn near impossible, and twisting the semantuics to make it appear non-negative is fallacious. Item - by 'some' definitions, Cuba is a democracy ((es, I know, any place that calls itself a democratic republic 'isn't', but....) So why not simply keep the POV out of it and state what it is? Item - by stating that it is the only non-democracy, waht are we trying to say? That somehow that makes it by virtue of it's political choices a worse place than anywhere else in the western hemisphere, including some plces that are technically democracies by your deffinition of the word? Saying it is the only soc rep in the west, and providing the link to the soc rep article does not leave the reader with any doubt as to the nature of the place - WITHOUT having to use difficult to define or WP:V statemwents that are by definition judgmental. Why not do it the easy effective way? Bridesmill 13:37, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I will respond to Juneappal shortly. Adam 14:02, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
'xcuse me? Your first bullet states you will only accept mediation which goes your way, but assert that this means you have not rejected mediation? That, Sir, is a fairly basic logic loop/fallacious argument. I am definitely not 'pro' Cuba, but the 'not a democracy ' line means nothing, and is arguably contested (spuriously, yes, but still contestable). The only Agreed upon def by the international community is Socialist Republic (or words similar); let the merits of this be argued out on the political article rather than the national one. And in terms of what Cuba 'is', it still needs to be WP:V and not WP:OR or POV. Why the insistance on a statement of opinion? WP is NOT an editorial collumn. The eendeavour is to be scholarly, which by definition would include being open to an end result which is at variance with your own hypothesis. Bridesmill 14:18, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
In resonse to Juneappel:
We have had the "what is democracy" debate several times already in the course of this discussion. Indeed this whole argument goes around in a complete circle about once a day, and every time a new person comes along we have to start again. However, I will try one more time:
Democracy means literally "rule by the people." The OED defines it at “Government by the people; that form of government in which the sovereign power resides in the people, and is exercised either directly by them or by officers elected by them.” Direct democracy is where the citizens gather in one place and vote directly on laws. Indirect or representative democracy is where the people choose representatives to govern in their name. In the modern world, this is the dominant form.
The key word in the above definition is “elect”. The OED defines “elect” as “to pick out, choose: to choose in preference to an alternative.” An element of choice is essential for a genuine election, and thus to a genuine democracy. The people must have the right to choose to vote for candidate A and reject candidate B, and to vote for policy X in preference to policy Y.
In the Soviet system of government, of which Cuba is one of five surviving examples, there is no element of choice, and the system of elections and legislatures is a façade for the reality of absolute rule by the Communist Party. In Cuban elections there is only one candidate for each seat in the legislature, and the voters have no power to elect some other person. There is no right to nominate for election without the approval of the Candidacy Commissions, which consist of representatives of “mass organisations” controlled by the Communist Party. There is also no right to advocate the rejection of the official candidates, or to form a political party to advocate a different system of government. And in any case, the legislature which is "elected" in this manner has no real power, because the Politburo of the Communist Party is the real centre of power.
I have yet to see any of these facts seriously contested here. They are sufficient grounds for stating that “Cuba is not a democracy” within any meaningful or accepted definition of the word. As stated above, I am willing to consider other forms of words, but not to compromise on this essential point. Adam 14:32, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I would be quite happy with the formulation: "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which does not conform to the definition of democratic government accepted by the great majority of governments and by international election monitoring and human rights organisations. The Cuban government and its supporters in other countries nevertheless maintain that Cuba is a democracy." I am going to bed now so I will see tomorrow where we have got to. Adam 15:02, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I don't understand what's the fuss about Cuba and Fidel Castro here (every newspaper is talking about). Any decent person with a minimum IQ can understand that Cubans suffer a lot at the hand of the communists. I lived 27 years in a Eastern European communist country and I know exactly what I am talking about. (Gore)
Bruce's bleatings about "civility" are just a cover for his political agenda, which is to prevent the truth about the Castro dictatorship appearing at Wikipedia. I treat them with the contempt they deserve. My dictionary defines "verify" as "prove, confirm truth of." Wikipedia is about what is (a) true and (b) can be shown to be true. Adam 00:51, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
When I get time this evening I will do a new edit of both this article and Elections in Cuba, based on the text I proposed (above) as part of the failed attempt at a settlement with the pro-Castro faction (which now seems to consist of Bruce and Michael, with Zleitzen occupying a neutralist position). I think this is a very fair and balanced text. However my offer to delete the description of Cuba's political status in the opening paragraph in exchange for an agreed text is now withdrawn, so that will stay. Adam 03:50, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
But you did respond, Zleitzen. You specifically said that you would not write a "why Cuba is a democracy" section for my text. If you have changed your mind about that, fine. Adam 04:20, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Once again you are most obtusely misrepresenting what I asked you to do. I didn't ask you to say why you think Cuba is a democracy (if indeed you do). I asked you to complete the sentence "The Cuban Government and its supporters argue that Cuba is a democracy because..." In other words, to summarise the argument that Cuba is a democracy, as a balancing section to the text saying that by most objective criteria Cuba is a not a democracy. I am perfectly capable of writing it myself, but I was trying to be as accommodating as possible to the pro-Castro faction by asking them to write it themselves rather than have me paraphrase their arguments for them. But if none of you / them are willing or able to do so, I will do it myself. I for one am trying to bring this extremely tiresome process to an end. Adam 04:43, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Merecat, I agree with your characterization of Cuba's political system. Still, notice that in other sourcebooks, such as any encyclopedia or The World Almanac, under the description "government-type" the Cuba and other Communist regimes are either described as "republics" "federal republics" (in the case of the Soviet Union) or "Communist states." It is widely understood that these terms are often fig-leaves in the context of describing a "government-type." At any rate, thanks for your contributions to the talk page. It's a relief to see another well-informed user watching things around here. 172 | Talk 18:26, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Our mediation has been pending since April 28, waiting it appears, for a response from Adam. I point your attention here in case you missed it. BruceHallman 13:34, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd be intrigued to discover why you find Jimmy Carter an important commentator on the Cuban democracy debate. Whilst you find Chavez and Humala (fellow Bolivarians with opposing views) irrelevant? My reading of this would be the reverse. Personally I have little interest in what an ex US president of nearly 30 years has to say on the matter. Whilst Chavez, and to a lesser extent Humala, are presently altering the international political landscape. -- Zleitzen 17:23, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Adam Carr, excellent work once again. Keep up the work. 172 | Talk 18:21, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. Zleitzen weakens his credibility in my eyes by questioning the relevance of Carter's comments, let alone comparing him to Chavez. Since the end of his (very mediocre) presidency, Carter has rehabilitated himself as a democracy watchdog of undoubted integrity and considerable courage. His opinion on such matters is relevant and important. Chavez is a sleazy demagogue and thug who admires Castro only because he too would like to be president-for-life. Adam 23:56, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with you that Carter is anti-US, but if you are right then that gives his comments even more weight, no? Adam 00:29, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I have quoted the opinion of the OAS's human rights body, who are much better qualified to comment than Chavez. Note that I have refrained from quoting anyone in the current US administration, or from Freedom House or the NED, although they have had plenty to say that I could have used. Adam 01:22, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm not satisfied with Adam's rewrite of the goverment section. I'm also extremly displeased that in opening paragraph of the article Adam insists that there should be a sentence "only country ... that is not democracy" without other point of view. It would be much better, neutrality wise, that that sentence should be deleted. But it is much worse that should it stays there as if it's a fact. If it's disputed, it should not be mentioned. Also, it's highly hypocritical writing something like "by Latin American standards, Batista was a mild dictator". Dictator is a dictator. A mild one ... What's a criteria for this? He killed only few of his opponents opposed to other Latin American dictators? This sentence clearly has no place in encyclopedia article. My opinion that writing things like these is confronting Wikipedia's policies and does not confront with
WP:NPOV
But after engaging in this discussion for only few days I became tired. Tired of the fact that what ever I say, it wont make a difference, because Adam and 172 and others will proceede to do what ever they like to do, write in this article to their liking and unilateraly.
Adam, I understand that you are a historian. You may be a great historian, but that does not make you a great writer of encyclopedia articles.--
RockyMM
12:43, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Now that we seem to have fixed up the History, Politics and Human Rights sections, the remaining problems are:
You've been working pretty hard here. If you're running short of time, I can volunteer to fix up at least the economy section, weaving together information from World Bank reports and the CIA Factbook entry (though, to be honest, I hope you do all the work!). The one section on which I wouldn't be to qualified to help is culture. 172 | Talk 06:24, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
You're welcome to the economy. But (loud whisper) don't mention the CIA! Adam 06:36, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I just rewrote the economy section. It's not the most inspired writing, but it didn't take much to improve the section. The economy section was particularly bad. (By the way, the old section actually included a link to a Granma article!) 172 | Talk 09:15, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
On a related note, economy of Cuba also needs a clean-up. Most of the text there is not unsalvageable. Still, the article (predictably) does in detail extolling Cuba's "world-class biotechnology and pharmaceutical industry" while not mentioning the word "rationing" even once! 172 | Talk 09:55, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the embargo and its effect on the economy need to be discussed. While revolutionary regimes which claim to reject the world capitalist system can't really complain when that system takes them at their word and excludes them, the loss of Cuba's most natural export market and source of investment (the US) has obviously had a major impact on its economy. But ultimately, of course, Cuba's poverty is Castro's fault, because the embargo, however misguided, is a response to his undemocratic regime. When Castro came to power, Cuba and Puerto Rico had roughly comparable standards of living. Today Puerto Rico is six times wealthier than Cuba per capita in per capita GDP, although I concede that in Cuba the poverty is more evenly distributed. If Castro had never come to power, Cuba would by now not only be a democracy, it would be at least as rich as Puerto Rico and probably richer. (Don't worry, comrades, I'm not going to try to put that in the article.) I'm also struck by 172's assertion that Cuba is a net importer of sugar. What is his source? The FAO doesn't seem to support this. Adam 13:27, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Maybe as an archive worker I'm being a bit sensitive but I am finding it a tad disturbing that the archives of this discussion are being manipulated, probably by Adam and his allies. Last time I dropped by I wrote some comments, under the heading 'The Cold War continues...', on Adam's claims to be the standard bearer of the truth round here. The next time I looked a new page had been started, and the last section of the previous page, (now Archive 5) had been broken up by subheadings all of which begin with 'Bruce complains about...'. My contribution and Bletch's response had completely disappeared and the end of the previous section been merged with the contributions that followed, and copied over to form the top of this page. Strategic duplication?
Looking further I noticed that each of the four archive pages formed since Adam's arrival here had two things in common, Adam had been the last or last but one contributor, and the histories of the pages almost totally erased. Care to tell us how you did it, Adam? Care to tell us how it tallies with your commitment to facts and truth?
To respond to an earlier bit of empty rhetoric - who cares what Adam thinks? Back after a while away I see nothing much has changed. Those sympathetic to socialist Cuba are dismissed as apologists and/or naive, while those critical are describing 'reality', 'the truth' and saying certain things are'obvious' or 'factual'. Bruce is described (by an unchallenged sockpuppet) as frustrating when he is clearly reacting from a sense of frustration. Adam damns him as a communist, rather than, more generously,patronise him as naive. What qualifies you, Adam, to claim to be writing something 'factual'? All you will do is present the arguments you consider relevant, while ignoring the ones which weaken the POV you are trying to assert. What is factual about that? You have shown over and over that your definition of democracy pertains solely to the method by which governments are chosen and ignores the actual social and economic structures within which those governments work. By keeping the focus of the argument on the definition of democracy as you define it you avoid dealing with issues like the value of a balloted vote as opposed to the raw economic power of private ownership.
How much time do you want to spend trying to convince us that you, and only you, know best? It appears to me that you aren't interested in a solution to this page's problems. No matter what you write, no matter how accurate it is within the limits that you set, the perspectives that look beyond your limits aren't going to fade away, simply because you and your supporters insist that they do so. 172 promised you an edit war when he asked for your assistance. Is that what you are here for? the fight? Your continuing displays of contempt for those who dare disagree with you suggests that this is so and that you see the discussions here strictly in terms of win or lose, rather than a struggle to reach agreement. MichaelW 01:16, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me, but I would like to point out, to whomever is in charge of this topic, that concerning economy PROSTITUTION and WAGES in real dollars should be mentioned. Prostitution is widespread, and sex-tourism is depended upon by many citizens. A high wage, in CUBA, is 5 dollars. 5 dollars! Now, politically, statements should be made concerning its government, that is a totalitarian regime, a dictatorship, but different from others. It's a different system, but a totalitarian none the less. 12:27, 2 May 2006. (I'm Ippet Iset).
The present citation for the 'not a democracy' phrase is this CIDH link. That citation does not even include one instance of the use or the word 'democracy' or 'democratic'. For that reason, that citation appears to be not pertinent. BruceHallman 18:04, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I propose a gentlemen's agreement to quickly make things run more smoothly here. I'll agree to abstain forever from editing any Cuba-related articles if BruceHallman does the same. It's a tit-for-tat deal that'll make things easier for all of us (especially the two of us). 172 | Talk 21:06, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
References indeed need to be checked. I googled "human rights + Cuba" and more than half the references I got were about Guantanamo Bay. So much for 11 million Cubans. By the way, what does "El Gran Comepinga" mean? Adam 01:57, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Zleitzen, in your zeal to remove my edits, you also removed a needed clarification of Roosevelt as US president, and re-introduced a derogatory term describing Castro . Please explain to me how this addition is not relevant...
US-Cuba relations are riddled throughout the history of Cuba section. If this is not the right section, then what is? I am not vandalizing. I'm attempting to present a clear and accurate (and cited!) account. -- Mcmachete 05:43, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Good idea, Adam. Merecat 08:19, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Zleitzen, I'm glad you agree that there is systemic anti-US and left-wing bias on the internet (these two terms have now become synonymous, of course, thanks to G W Bush). Now all we need is for you to acknowledge that this is also true at Wikipedia. PMA has just been telling me that pro-communist editors (whom I only half-jokingly call the Communist Party of Wikipedia and who have made the prolonged battle at this article necessary), are also active at the articles on Lenin, Stalin and elsewhere. This is going to become a very serious problem for Wikipedia as it becomeas more and more widely read. Sooner or later Wikipedia's rules will need to be changed to prevent this kind of systematic political manipulation - not just by communists of course, but they are are worst offenders at present. Adam 12:30, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
BTW, Adam, did you see my response regarding the "Economy" section? Let me know if there's anything else I can do if you're interested in easing your workload here. 172 | Talk 13:05, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
172, I don't regard editing Wikipedia as work, I regard it as fun. In response to Zleitzen: It depends on what you mean by "bias." Of course there is a US bias at Wikipedia in the sense that the majority of its editors are Americans, who are naturally preoccupied with the things that interest Americans, which is why movie stars and computer games have articles larger than those for African presidents. But the demographics of American Wikipedians are overwhelmingly affluent and highly educated, which means that they share the general left-liberal views of that demographic. So of course do I in many respects, but I have been trained in a school of anti-communist social democratic politics (specifically the right wing of the [[Australian Labor Party), after having been a communist in my (now rather distant) youth. I am also a trained historian (not that I'm allowed to say that at Wikipedia of course), and I know a lot of the foul history of communism in great detail. This particular combination of biographical circumstances makes me both more aware than the average Wikipedian of the creeping left bias here, and more determined to do something about it. You say that "Editing here shouldn't be a crusade of ideologies, it should be about scientific verifiability and NPOV balance." I agree in the abstract, but what is one to do when confronted by fools like ScottGrayban or hypocritical, devious Castro apologists like Bruce? (Yes Bruce, I am being uncivil - so sue me). When you're on a slippery slope, achieving balance requires a deliberate struggle. (I'm logging off now so you have 11 hours or so to respond :) ) Adam 13:41, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Adam, you are mistaken to argue: "But the demographics of American Wikipedians are overwhelmingly affluent and highly educated, which means that they share the general left-liberal views of that demographic". Just the opposite is true. See this
data from the American National Election Studies Center for Political Studies at the University of Michigan. High income people are 2 1/2 times more likely to self identify as conservative. Also, the highly educated are 5 times more likely to self identify as conservative. You neglected to mention that Wikipedians tend to be male, and males are almost 50% more likely to self identify as conservative. You are right about 'systemic bias' problems in Wikipedia, but you have flipped your version of 'truth' exactly backwards from the data.
BruceHallman
20:27, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Dot bombed computer geeks are not that affluent, which would explain your observations of a lean to the left. Joking aside, if for no other reason than we 99.9% belong to capitalistic societies, Wikipedians inevitably have a systemic bias against a non-capitalist society. And, we must put hate of Fidel on the shelf and try to objectively edit neutrality in the article. BruceHallman 21:24, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I've been reading through this page and am really amused of the polarizing effect that Castro's whatever-you-call-it government still have among the academic ranks. But as a Cuban and a journalist, I will really appreciate that those editing the Cuba page stick to the facts. First, I don’t think that even Fidel Castro believes that his government is a democracy, especially since he has defined his socialist revolution, quoting Lenin, as a “Dictatorship of the Proletariat”. Secondly, even if you sympathize with his revolution and his politics, you cannot ignore the facts that his government punishes peaceful dissent with jail time, suppresses free speech and free press, and is a one-party autocracy. POVs have no place in a balanced and fair report, which is what a Wikipedia entry should be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.9.33.121 ( talk • contribs)
Good morning, comrades. "Dictatorship of the proletariat" means the dictatorship of the proletariat over the bourgeoisie, and is seen as a transitional stage on the way to classless, stateless, communist society. In the meantime, as Lenin said, "the state is a stick," and can be used against all enemies of the revolution without restraint. The facade of parliamentary government, modelled on the Stalin Constitution of 1936, is designed to fool the Bruces of this world (and obviously succeeds), but all good Leninists understand that it is a facade for the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat, as represented by its vanguard party. Adam 01:10, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
If Bruce is going to spend his time here defending one the world's most disgusting dictatorships through endless obfuscation and delaying tactics, he has to expect a certain amount of political criticism. I get of plenty of it too - the difference is that I don't whinge about it all the time. Adam 03:10, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Adam accused Bruce of engaging in "obfuscation and delaying tactics". Other editors should bear in mind that it is Adam not Bruce that is holding up the much needed mediation process [9]. See below:
Pending acceptance. User:Adam Carr stated that he "reserve[s] [his] rights"; I'm concerned about the intended meaning of this phrase, as it suggests to me that the level of agreement necessary to have a productive mediation may not be present. I'd like Adam to clarify his intent before the matter is assigned to a mediator. Essjay ( Talk • Connect) 16:49, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Here is an extract from the Soviet Constitution of 1936 (the "Stalin Constitution"). The similarities with the corresponding sections of the Cuban Constitition, particularly Article 141 dealing with candidate selection, will be obvious to all.
Is it Bruce and Michael's opinion that the USSR under Stalin was also a democracy? Adam 05:26, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
It has everything to do with the topic at hand, which is whether Cuba is a democracy. Bruce bases his claim that Cuba is a democracy on the formal provisions of the Cuban Constitution - secret ballot, people's assemblies, mass organisations etc etc. I argue that any dictator can write a democratic constitution, but the text must be viewed in the light of the realities of political power in the country in question. The fact that Stalin, one of the most murderous despots in history, who was about to carry out his Great Purges in which millions died, could promulgate a lovely democratic constitution, and have large numbers of 1930s Bruces singing his praises, proves my point. Adam 08:03, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Dear me, Michael is even worse than Bruce. No personality cult of Fidel? The Communist Party has never substituted itself for civil society? Words fail me in responding to such stupidity, which is probably just as well. This is a country where the entire population is made to sit up all night watching Fidel make five-hour speeches (even Stalin never did that), and in which anyone who doesn't comply is reported to the police by their friendly neighbourhood Committee of the Defence of the Revolution. In some ways Cuba is a more tightly regulated society than the USSR was. In any case, the "personality cult" of Stalin or Fidel is only a minor epiphenomenon of the Communist system. Much more to the point is the party's monopoly of physical coercion, its exemption from legal restraint in the use of that monopoly, its complete colonisation of civil society, and its total control of the media. In all of these Cuba is a typical, classical, Stalinist state. Just because its cultural style is a bit more flamboyant than East Germany's, and its PR more sophisticated than North Korea's, doesn't mean that the substance is not the same. Adam 08:47, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I notice that 172 in his rewrite of the economy section has removed all mention of the organic and urban agriculture/horticulture initiatives which were an essential part of Cuba's response to the loss of Soviet support Yeah right. Reverting back to subsistence farming-- that sounds like a great way to deal with shortages of basic means of subsistence (sarcasm). Those "organic and urban agriculture/horticulture initiatives" are only evidence of the degree to which the Cuban economy has been utterly ruined. 172 | Talk 09:00, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Adam, I don't know why you keep complaining about my personal beliefs, (1) you don't know my personal beliefs, (2) they are irrelevant. You are the one who incessantly keeps trying to edit in the article the personal belief that Cuba is not a democracy, without citation or consensus. You are the one that repeated deletes my requests for citation of the verifiablity of your belief without providing citation. The burden of proof is on you to prove your point, and despite weeks of trying you have failed. Perhaps you should consider just giving it a rest for a while, we can always come back to the issue later. BruceHallman 13:56, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Whatever. You know what you're up to, Bruce, and I know what you're up to, so do spare us your line of tripe. "Urban gardening movement" - I do like that. The growth of the urban gardening movement in Cuba is indeed indisputable, and what is that a sign of? A country that can't feed itself. Ah the joys of socialism. Wartime Britain had the excuse of having half its shipping sunk by U-boats. Cuba's problem is that it's had to give the whole island over to sugar production to pay its bills (and I acknowledge that problem long predates Castro), but now the sugar market is glutted and it can't produce enough of anything else to pay for its food imports. As I said before, Cuba and Puerto Rico had roughly equivalent economies and standards of living 50 years ago, but now Puerto Rico, thoroughly integrated into the evil capitalist system, has a booming service economy and is six times wealthier than Cuba in terms of per capita GDP. Socialist autarky was proved decades ago to be a miserable failure, and only Castro and Kim Jong-il persist with it. I doubt the members of the politburo have to grow their own veggies. Adam 14:46, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Adam, you again and again are fixated on what Cuba is not. Obviously, Cuba's economy is a 'miserable failure' when measured against the premise of a capitalistic yardstick. You are making a false analogy which is a logical fallacy. We should just describe Cuba for what it is, as opposed to what it is not. BruceHallman 15:39, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
This argument is absurd. The "urban gardening movement" is the Cuban equivalent of the Soviet apartment dwellers who lived off of onions and potatoes grown on thier window-sills-- not because they were interested in "organic farming" (whatever the hell that stupid yuppie cliche means) but because of severe shortages of food in the ration system. The "urban gardening movement," if it is to be mentioned in this article, will only be mentioned to illustrate the fact that many urban dwellers have been forced by the regime, given the near-complete destruction of Cuba's economic infastructure, to resort to subsistence farming for survival. 172 | Talk 04:19, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
This is utter nonsense. "Urban gardening" is nothing more than urban subsistence farming made necessary because of the failure of the ration system. The "organic" part is a code word for the government's failure to provide essential fertilizers, and a propaganda facade meant to co-opt support from the greenies in the rich Northern countries. 172 | Talk 19:31, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
<the only state in the western hemisphere that is not a democracy> - cite needed - CIA world factbook lists Cuba as the only Communist State in the Western Hemisphere. Same factbook lists a range of gov't types - not all 'pure democracies'. The bigger question, however, is what do we mean by democracy? Some places are democratic in name only. The only accurate statement is to say they are the only Communist State. Bridesmill 19:55, 4 May 2006 (UTC) you are full of crap
Cuba is an authoritarian state under the guise of a democratic republic. Here's the latest mention of Cuba as an "authoritarian state" (ironically by someone named MARX no less) [19]. I've provided citations before in these Cuba:Talk pages, and I would be happy to provide them again. Wikipedia should not be used to disseminate Castro's propaganda (or ANY propaganda for that matter), but simply present all facts. It's bad enough that Castro's daily speeches and control of all Cuban media have brainwashed some Cubans who don't know better. That should not happen here. -- Mcmachete 21:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
So what would count as 'a neutral source'? The only ones I can think of who would call Cuba anything other than a communist state are anything 'but' neutral. Britannica calls it a 'Communist republic', HRW - Communist State. Gov't of Canda calls it s Socialist State. Unfortunately, though I agree that Cuba is an authoritarian state, that is more of an assessment than a statement of fact. Bridesmill 22:37, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
'Authoritarian state', like 'democracy' are not binary, black or white qualitites. Cuba is more authoritarian than most other countries. Is Cuba infinitely authoritarian? No. How does being somewhat authoritarian then prove that Cuba is not a democracy? Cuba does have elections with secret ballots and all people have the freedom to vote no on any and all candidates. That seems clearly to be a type of democracy, although I would hear arguments that it is a less than perfect type of democracy. BruceHallman 23:58, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
What a charming page to visit....don't normally get this kind of comment on WP. Are the gutlessly annonymous peanut gallery comments usually like this here? Having spent a fair bit of time living in a former communist country, I can assure you that the 'name' of 'democracy' is totally sham and the people who live there do not actually believe it. No internationally recognized body calls them a democracy, so why pretend they are. Then again, some of the 'democracies' in the western hemisphere aren't exactly wondrous either (and no I'm not thinking about the US). On the other hand, the 'authoritarian' argument is also a dead end because it is all a matter of degree. They 'are' a socialist republic, they are the only 'socialist republic' in the western hemisphere. My recommendation is to call it 'the only socialist republic in the western hemisphere - and let those who wish to discuss the merits or lack thereof of soc republics do so on that page - IMHO the only way to keep the politics off a page where they don't belong if it wants to stay NPOV. Bridesmill 01:22, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
There is of course some room for doubt in both cases, but I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to struggling democracies where this is possible. I have never said that every state in the Americas other than Cuba is a perfect democracy. The U.S. electoral system, to take the most obvious case, has serious deficiencies. There were serious problems in Haiti, but you have to make some allowances for the very weak infrastructure and deep-seated social problems they are trying to overcome. Cuba is the only country in the Americas which has deliberately set out to prevent choice, which is the essence of democracy. Before I started dealing with people like Bruce, Michael and now Carl, I wouldn't have thought anyone other than an out-and-out communist would deispute this. (I note by the way that Bruce has not actually denied being a communist despite my best efforts to provoke him). Adam 13:05, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
It is not good enough to say that Cuba is a single-party state. It is possible in theory to have a democracy in which there is only one party, if no-one feels like forming a second party. Singapore comes close to being a one-party democracy, but people are free to form other parties if they want. This is not so in Cuba. What makes Cuba unique in its region is what it is not - it is not a democracy. Adam 05:46, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
<this is a perfectly simple and accurate statement, to which a grand total of two people are objecting, holding the whole article hostage. this is unacceptable> I don't believe it is 'perfectly simple' - it would be if we lived in a perfect black/white pigeonhole world but we don't. Nor does it appear to be only two people objecting. WHy reject a workable edit (and hold an article hostage) based on one word which cannot be proven, and if you are going to revert, why not revert the {fact} tag that your version by definition requires? Item - negative proofs are darn near impossible, and twisting the semantuics to make it appear non-negative is fallacious. Item - by 'some' definitions, Cuba is a democracy ((es, I know, any place that calls itself a democratic republic 'isn't', but....) So why not simply keep the POV out of it and state what it is? Item - by stating that it is the only non-democracy, waht are we trying to say? That somehow that makes it by virtue of it's political choices a worse place than anywhere else in the western hemisphere, including some plces that are technically democracies by your deffinition of the word? Saying it is the only soc rep in the west, and providing the link to the soc rep article does not leave the reader with any doubt as to the nature of the place - WITHOUT having to use difficult to define or WP:V statemwents that are by definition judgmental. Why not do it the easy effective way? Bridesmill 13:37, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I will respond to Juneappal shortly. Adam 14:02, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
'xcuse me? Your first bullet states you will only accept mediation which goes your way, but assert that this means you have not rejected mediation? That, Sir, is a fairly basic logic loop/fallacious argument. I am definitely not 'pro' Cuba, but the 'not a democracy ' line means nothing, and is arguably contested (spuriously, yes, but still contestable). The only Agreed upon def by the international community is Socialist Republic (or words similar); let the merits of this be argued out on the political article rather than the national one. And in terms of what Cuba 'is', it still needs to be WP:V and not WP:OR or POV. Why the insistance on a statement of opinion? WP is NOT an editorial collumn. The eendeavour is to be scholarly, which by definition would include being open to an end result which is at variance with your own hypothesis. Bridesmill 14:18, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
In resonse to Juneappel:
We have had the "what is democracy" debate several times already in the course of this discussion. Indeed this whole argument goes around in a complete circle about once a day, and every time a new person comes along we have to start again. However, I will try one more time:
Democracy means literally "rule by the people." The OED defines it at “Government by the people; that form of government in which the sovereign power resides in the people, and is exercised either directly by them or by officers elected by them.” Direct democracy is where the citizens gather in one place and vote directly on laws. Indirect or representative democracy is where the people choose representatives to govern in their name. In the modern world, this is the dominant form.
The key word in the above definition is “elect”. The OED defines “elect” as “to pick out, choose: to choose in preference to an alternative.” An element of choice is essential for a genuine election, and thus to a genuine democracy. The people must have the right to choose to vote for candidate A and reject candidate B, and to vote for policy X in preference to policy Y.
In the Soviet system of government, of which Cuba is one of five surviving examples, there is no element of choice, and the system of elections and legislatures is a façade for the reality of absolute rule by the Communist Party. In Cuban elections there is only one candidate for each seat in the legislature, and the voters have no power to elect some other person. There is no right to nominate for election without the approval of the Candidacy Commissions, which consist of representatives of “mass organisations” controlled by the Communist Party. There is also no right to advocate the rejection of the official candidates, or to form a political party to advocate a different system of government. And in any case, the legislature which is "elected" in this manner has no real power, because the Politburo of the Communist Party is the real centre of power.
I have yet to see any of these facts seriously contested here. They are sufficient grounds for stating that “Cuba is not a democracy” within any meaningful or accepted definition of the word. As stated above, I am willing to consider other forms of words, but not to compromise on this essential point. Adam 14:32, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I would be quite happy with the formulation: "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which does not conform to the definition of democratic government accepted by the great majority of governments and by international election monitoring and human rights organisations. The Cuban government and its supporters in other countries nevertheless maintain that Cuba is a democracy." I am going to bed now so I will see tomorrow where we have got to. Adam 15:02, 5 May 2006 (UTC)