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You put images of Soljačić and Balić, and you don't put pictures of Krleža and many others more notable people. Unbelievable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.207.0.243 ( talk) 12:00, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
It is really strange that DNA is used to describe who are Croatians today?
Here is why
This analysis, however accurately counted chromosomes, did not prove to be quite trusty source of determining group of nations that one nation belongs. To be more precise, we can observe clear comment that Slavic is significant minority in what is Croatian composition today.
Well how will we explain following?
1. Soon after Slavs arrived in what is today land mass called Croatia, they were subdued by Byzantium and Holy Roman Empire/Austrian Empire/Hungarian Empire.
2. If previous is the case, how Slavs managed to impose their language as MINORITY in situation when they did not have power over Illyrian population since power was with e.g. Germans or Hungarians. How come that Slavic language prevailed? Normans were Ruling England for few centuries and could not impose French, but it went so well for Slavic minority in Croatia.
3. There are numerous examples of quite opposite. Whenever local (already Romanized) population outnumbered newcomers neither Slavic nor Germanic languages prevailed (Spain, Portugal, Italy, Romania even France). How come that predominantly local population, Romanized through centuries of Roman rule, could not impose some Romanic language over Slavic one that is today widely spoken in Croatia.
4. Especially, if we consider that Slavs did not hold their ground for a long and that all ever Croatian Kings have clear Slavic names (Zvonimir, Trpimir, …). They lost it to many conquerors like, Byzantines, Avars, Germans, and Hungarians... Why on earth they would favorite Slavs over local Romanic population.
No one can deny that every nation is not one genome nation, but mixture of many components. Question is do we sometimes try to interpret genome through the eye of politician and see what we really want to see.
5. Looking physical characteristics of Croatians today, they are much more alike to Serbs and Checks then like Germans or Italians. What if Albanians are Illyrians, as they claim? Then someone must be wrong. Seams to me that Croats look much more alike Serbs, Checks or Slovaks then they look like Albanians
Please read from very same Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania
This cannot be serious scientific article if Albanians and Croats can be simultaneously predominantly Illyrians considering so many differences in same arguments that are used for Croatian’s genome proof. Their genome is so way apart.
SOMETHING HERE IS WRONG AND ADMINISTRATOR SHOULD CORRECT IT! ONE STAND SHOULD GIVE UP SINCE THEY ARE DIRECTLY CONFLICTED!
This is reference to article:
“And the third conclusion from the genetic evidence points to the fact Croats are genetically heterogeneous, pointing to a high degree of mixing of the newly arrived medieval migrant tribes (such as Slavs) with the indigenous populations that were already present in the region of the modern day Croatia.[41] Hence, most modern day Croats are descended from the original European population of the region and have lived in the territory by other names, such as Illyrians and their forebears. These original inhabitants also served an important role in re-populating Europe after the last ice age” —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
174.6.22.245 (
talk)
09:39, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
Judging from the previous discussion on the subject, there is evidence that the 9 million figure may be too high. In this case, an alternative lower figure, based on probably more reliable sources, should be used in order to follow Wikipedia guidelines. Kostja ( talk) 12:48, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
The Catholic Encyclopedia, which is obviously a most reliable source as the Catholic church has been keeping records since the middle ages, states that some Hroats (Croats) are Western Serbs. I'm quite surprised because I thought that Catholic Encylopedia would do anything to suggest that Croats have always been their own ethnicity as opposed to merely one derived by Catholicism itself.
"While every other race in the Balkans, with the exception of the Western Serbs, called Hroats (Croats), went over to schism, the Roman Catholic faith ...."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01253b.htm - Look under religion. Lukic12345 ( talk) 20:45, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
Dependso who wrote that. But, it is clearly Croats aren't Western Serbs. Wikipedia isn't about making articles controversal or anything like that, for that you have You Tube, blogs etc, so do you best.--
Wustefuchs (
talk)
15:48, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
Or could you simply state that there are such a claims based on this and that yet no significant volume of data is available to make this view preveiling. Maybe even Serbs are Croatians. Maybe there are docuemnts of that kind. Or maybe you are both the same. But you are so clear on that. Exactly! Well said! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.216.132.111 ( talk) 03:26, 4 March 2011 (UTC) What about if you chose some political science rather then science like History should be??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.6.22.245 ( talk) 11:09, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
lol, I know I'm Croat... How do you know you are Serb? You sure you aren't serbianized Chinese? I wonder did you read new book by Šešelj - Rasrbljivanje Kineza...?-- Wustenfuchs ( talk) 12:14, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
User:DIREKTOR, I'm very sorry I need to mention your name in this section, however, stop adding Marhal Tito on Infobox. While he has 7 votes ther, many of Users stated they are against Tito's image on infobox. Understand, ther wasn't poll as for or against Tito, but only a polle who whants Tito's image on infobox. It is clearly, his image is highly disputed, makes article unstable, and it's only purpose are your "propaganda ambition". Your activity about Tito in this article is NPOV.-- Wustenfuchs ( talk) 13:37, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
It is also important to mention, 7 Users agreed to see Tito on the infobox, while 5 Users strongly opposed to Tito's image. We can count that as 7-5=2. Other people who were candidates don't have this problems, so they can pass. You see, from 12 votes made about Tito, seven voted yes while 5 voted no, wich means something. His adding to infobox will make article, as I sated, unstable and it serves only to some kind of political propaganda.-- Wustenfuchs ( talk) 13:58, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
Articles can't be fascist you know, and I'm not contributing just to this sort of articles. It seams you are active ther as my self because I see your activity on every "fascist" article. And maybe you should fallow my advice, since Rendulić is responsible for less murrders then Tito. Adding dictators on infoboxes about ethnic groups is not so great, you know, Hitler is far more famous (I'd say second person after Jesus :)), like Stalin too, but I won't say this two times. Like I said, 5 users were against, and we can make precedent about Tito. And if he remains on the infobox, then I need to congratulate you all chaps, because you made article unstable, and ther will be so much changes, so much talk at talk page, so many complains, but your way. I didn't made this section to promote my political attitudes (and as I can see you declared me a fascist, like I care), but to improve some articles at Wikipedia. About my activity at "fascist" articles, I can only say - I improved them grately. Before they looked like partisan propaganda 70 years old, now they really look like articles.
Reegards.--
Wustenfuchs (
talk)
17:45, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
And I forgot to mention you, how come Prelog (13 votes) is not included, while our beloved Comrade (7 votes) is? I hope you change this.-- Wustenfuchs ( talk) 18:01, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
The only reasons why DIREKTOR ( talk · contribs) insists on Tito is that he is a communist and Yugonostalgic and atheist (which can be clearly seen from his contributions). The issue of magazine covers and notability are total crap. There are other communist junk that were on coversIncluding gadafi Idi Amin, MObutu Sese seko, Ceausescu etc. There is also another equally notable Croat from the same period :Ante Pavelić- who is definitely one of the most notable. DIREKTOR, however, will never support his inclusion. - - Rerding to the election of Greatest Croat-it is election of left-wing tabloid.
and reverting cesorship by DIREKTOR by which he proves democratic customs inheritated from communists. Its politics, Enric, politics. :) You would be well advised to completely ignore the ultra-right-wing nonsense posted above by User:Wustenfuchs. Every person is entitled to his personal feelings, thoughts, and opinions, but when he/she posts them as though they were "facts", it falls to others to point out that not a single solitary respectable source supports them :P.
It is also interesting to note how User:Wustenfuchs compares Hitler, or Stalin, with a person who was decorated with the Grand Cross of the Legion of Honour for "preserving world peace" :). The idea that Tito is equivalent with Hitler, Pavelić, etc. can only be laughed at - not only by myself, but apparently by the majority of Croats as indicated by an actual professional study and poll. Such utterly absurd comparisons perhaps best illustrate the inherent agenda present in User:Wustenfuchs attempts, repeated over and over and over again, to get rid of a Croat he personally dislikes due to his own political views. Don't get me wrong, its ok to be "right-wing", nothing inherently "evil" about that, it is when someone wants to push politics into Wiki articles that one must oppose.
This person is not only the single Croatian person that affected world history more than any other, he is also one of the most important figures of Cold War history in general (the "leader of the Third World"). He is very likely the most internationally decorated and lauded person, not only among Croats, but in the world in general (119 awards and decorations from 60 countries). He is the only Croat ever to appear on the cover of LIFE or TIME, and he appeared seven times. He is the only Croat ever to receive the Legion of Honour, of any grade (he received the Grand Cross). He is by all accounts popular in Croatia as well, having won the 2003 " Greatest Croat" poll, and with a large square in the centre of the capital of Croatia (though of course, I cannot speak for Wustenfuchs and his pals :)). The funeral of Josip Broz Tito, at the time the largest state funeral in history by the number of attending state delegations, included four kings, 31 presidents, six princes, 22 prime ministers and 47 ministers of foreign affairs from 128 different countries. The WWII leader of Yugoslavia, upon his death the New York Times (and the western media in general) depicted him as the (quote) "last of the great WWII leaders". And he's a Croat. And we're actually disputing his inclusion? :) -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 19:32, 8 March 2011 (UTC) Ignore Tito, how come Prelog has 13 votes (6 more then Tito) and he is not included?, and no, he is not the only Croat with Legion of Honor award.-- Wustenfuchs ( talk) 14:01, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
As usual, I'll be objective and tell you that persons with the most votes should be included, and those are as fallows:
etc...
Another problem, some persons with large number of votes aren't included, you know witch. Our second problem, how did you get those images?
Ofcourse, historicly important persons like Tomislav should be included, no matter on number of votes, but what is with Prelog? What is with Meštrović? You know, you made another problem, maybe this old image was just ther for a shorter time and served as temporary solution. But we should fix this problem. And stop teling me about how succesfoul Tito was, I'm not stupid you know. Čiča Draža was also in Life magazine, he was very handsome ther :D
Are you, or we planing to repair this problem? I won't try to ask why you didn't included some persons, not my problem.-- Wustenfuchs ( talk) 14:15, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
“ | Josip Broz Tito is not only the single Croatian person that affected world history more than any other, he is also one of the most important figures of Cold War history in general (the "leader of the Third World"). He is very likely the most internationally decorated and lauded person, not only among Croats, but in the world in general (119 awards and decorations from 60 countries). He is the only Croat ever to appear on the cover of LIFE or TIME, and he appeared seven times. He is the only Croat ever to receive the Legion of Honour, of any grade (he received the Grand Cross). He is by all accounts popular in Croatia as well, having won the 2003 " Greatest Croat" poll, and with a large square in the centre of the capital of Croatia (though of course, I cannot speak for Wustenfuchs and his pals :)). The funeral of Josip Broz Tito, at the time the largest state funeral in history by the number of attending state delegations, included four kings, 31 presidents, six princes, 22 prime ministers and 47 ministers of foreign affairs from 128 different countries. The WWII leader of Yugoslavia, upon his death the New York Times (and the western media in general) depicted him as the (quote) "last of the great WWII leaders". And he's a Croat. | ” |
DIREKTOR, I must say, your main argument for adding Tito is number of votes... how people influenced the world is not your decision. Please, understand. If we want to be pure objective people, then we fallow this. I know you think I want to promote my "fascist" values and you maybe think my work here is something like 8th Enemy offensive, but bealive me, it's not so.
I'll tell you that scinetist are far more better to world then politicians. What one scientist done it remains forever, while it's not same for some politician. And I repeat, your argument was number of votes, if we want to remain rational, then we continue to fallow this.--
Wustenfuchs (
talk)
19:36, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
From wher did Dabčević-Kučar comed from? What are you doing and why? And I don't demand nothing, I propose, you don't even need to remove Tito, I fallow discussion from talk page what we discussed earlier. 5 was against. I don't have nothing against "Comrade Tito", after all he is Comrade, isn't he? And he is dead. But his appirience will damage stability of the article as I stated, and I'll tell that for more 100 times.
I just wonder, Dabčević-Kučar now, Strossmayer... we didn't even vote for those people. Ignore the discussion above, just tell me, according to what you add Strossmayer and Dabčević-Kučar? And I need to tell you that I appriciate your politeness. That is the best why a man can discuss.-- Wustenfuchs ( talk) 20:01, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
Oh, and entschuldigung if you insulted on Comrade Tito, it wasn't for you after all...-- Wustenfuchs ( talk) 20:04, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
Maybe I've got wrong impression, but I kinde have a feeling like you won't add Ante Starčević, even though he is one of the foundings of modern Croatian state, and we Croats like to refer him as Father of the Nation, he is one of the most famous historical persons in our history. As I can see only sort of politicians we have on the infobox are... well, they are a bit lefty, arne't they... Again, don't insult on this one.-- Wustenfuchs ( talk) 20:15, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
All good now, you found good photo. It can even serve to Ante Starčević article, good job I must say. You may understand now that his image contributes also to stability of the image, you know why and how. Once again, good photo.-- Wustenfuchs ( talk) 13:24, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
There is a mistake on this page. Ivo Andric was not Croat. He was Serb from Bosnia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.200.65.74 ( talk) 22:19, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
Tito under a checkerboard? Would die? :) Perhaps someone needs to enlighten the man to the fact that Croatia has a checkerboard coat of arms since 1939. And, I hate to be the one to say this, but you guys should all know that the only thing that matters here is whether the sources say Andrić or Tito were Croats, not whether we, or even they(!), felt themselves to be such.
The current infobox is very flexible, guys, that's why I chose it: it should be no problem to change any detail we don't like. The previous pic was non-consensus, where as for the new pic I (as much as I could) chose the folks we voted for above, though I was constrained by the lack of available photos (many even got deleted when I edited them). I also chose the format because it is obviously more complex and generally superior to a single-image collage, and the reason why I chose 4x4 is because that's how many images are usually used in this format, and I think anyone can see more would not look as good. Frankly I'm a little disappointed and annoyed - I had thought all my painstaking work to add a more detailed and complex improvement to the infobox might be appreciated, or at least not insulted and laughed at.. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 06:44, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
The reason I added the famous historical personages of our nation in the infobox's original draft (Starčević, Mažuranić, Gundulić, Tomislav I, Jelačić, Šubić Zrinski, Bošković, Petar Krešimir IV the Great) is because their notability is, objectively(!), HUGE. Adding sportsmen is.. ok, I guess, but I basically decided to leave it to other folks. The infobox can be easily edited - edit it!
Look you hate me or whatever, and I'm sory for that, but I'm not "arrogant". Did I not tell you just back there that the very reason I introduced this format is its flexibility? If you want to add/remove someone in particular to the infobox it can now actually be done more easily. Do you have any actual changes to propose? Lets discuss. Or do you just "hate me" and want to be insulting and start edit wars? -- DIREKTOR ( TALK)
Well I make that 8 reverts by DIREKTOR and 8 reverts by Timbouctou. Further more, this is a matter of hours after I protected Ante Pavelic for edit warring over an info box by you DIREKTOR. Any good reason why both of you should not be blocked because currently I can't think of one? Fainites barley scribs 21:26, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
Is everyone agreed that a box with lots of photos of Croats in it is a good idea? If so - how many people in the box are editors in dispute over? Fainites barley scribs 22:24, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
Here is Timbouctou's list, compiled from an older list on which there was voting. Ruđer Bošković, Andrija Mohorovičić, Vladimir Prelog, Josip Jelačić, Stjepan Radić, Josip Broz Tito, Ivan Gundulić, Ivan Meštrović, Vlaho Bukovac, Janica Kostelić, Goran Ivanišević, Blanka Vlašić, Alojzije Stepinac, Ivana Brlić-Mažuranić. Plus two of Dražen Petrović, Ivo Andrić, Davor Šuker, King Tomislav and Marko Marulić.
Here is DIREKTORs list taken from the infobox he put together. Tomislav, Peter Krešimir IV, Zvonimir, Marko Marulić, Nikola Š. Zrinski, Ivan Gundulić, Fran Frankopan, Ruđer Bošković, Josip Jelačić, Ivan Mažuranić, J. J. Strossmayer, Ante Starčević, Stjepan Radić, Josip Broz Tito, Ivo Andrić, Dabčević-Kučar.
There appears to be agreement on Ruđer Bošković, Josip Jelačić, Stjepan Radić, Josip Broz Tito, Ivan Gundulić, King Tomislav and Ivo Andrić. That's seven made up of 4 leader types and 3 scholar types, (1 scientist, 1 poet, 1 writer). No women. No sportspeople. That means we need to agree on either 5 or 9 more out of the following;
I will remove any more posts which grossly personalise the issue like yours did above DIREKTOR. Fainites barley scribs 15:24, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
We are going for consensus DIREKTOR. Looks as if Vladimir Prelog and Goran Ivanišević can be agreed. What do you say about Strossmeyer, Mazuranic and Marulic, Timbouctou? If we have 16, should we have father and daughter? Fainites barley scribs 16:56, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
OK. Thanks. So thats Ruđer Bošković, Josip Jelačić, Stjepan Radić, Josip Broz Tito, Ivan Gundulić, King Tomislav, Ivo Andrić, Vladimir Prelog, Ivana Brlić-Mažuranić, Ivan Meštrović, Blanka Vlašić, J. J. Strossmayer. If everybody is prepared to accept that they can't have all their favourites in, does this represent a fair consensus for 12? If we have 16 there is more leeway. Fainites barley scribs 13:19, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
I must say, I'm against Ivana Brlić-Mažuranić, she's unknown in English-speaking world, and she wasn't some writer either... And I agree on 16 persons on infobox. I don't know are those persons mentioned, but I'd include them: Ivan Meštrović, John Malkovich (ethnic Croat, no doubt about it, and more famous then JBT) -- Wusten fuchs 16:42, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
I can't bealive I hear this from you, what about Tito? He is also, only by his father side, a Croat, isn't he? :D But Malkovich is popular to English-speaking world, and when they see his last name I'm sure they won't see him as French. Ok, now, can someone, briefly, tell me wher we stand, 'cause I'm confused from all this discussion above.-- Wusten fuchs 17:49, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
What he needs to say? Sources say he was a Croat, you know that, by his ancestry, as stated in few. Why should he have something with Croatia? It doen't make him less Croat, is it? Our lefty politicians love to say it is a civic state, not a nation-state as stated in Croatian Constitution :). But my point is, he is famous chap to Americans, Brits and other English-speaking people, like they give a damn about his connection with Croatia. Like with Nikola Tesla, what the heck has he do with Serbia, but still he is on the Serbs infobox. His (Malkovich's) connection to Croatia is irrelevant.-- Wusten fuchs 19:55, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
Well, if we check List of Croats and see wich of those persons has the most views, we can solve the problem, like:
Now, here, people who are famous, no matter what they did or for who they did it, should be in the infobox. Georgians now have Stalin, he wasn't a saint (even though ther was a try to make him one), but he is famous, small kids know who Stalin was. Germans also wanted include Hitler, but Austrians were a bit angry about it... Etc. Now I think that, all persons wich were proposed above are here on this list, so we can now see who will be included, people with highest vote, that is first 16, or 12 or 8 persons, what ever, should be included, I hope you agree?-- Wusten fuchs 10:03, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
Back to serious business. I'll start fixing-up the images, I think we have a good enough consensus here. --
DIREKTOR (
TALK)
11:01, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
There's that fascist stuff again, Wustenfuchs.. As I said, you really don't need this. Quote:
[2]
“ | Our government's policy should be to kill a third of them [ethnic Serbs in the Independent State of Croatia], expel another third, and forcibly convert the remainder to Catholicism. Thus, our new Croatia will be rid of all Serbs in order to become one hundred percent Catholic within ten years. | ” |
— Mile Budak, Minister of Education in the Independent State of Croatia |
(P.S. Wüstenfuchs of course means "Desert Fox" = Erwin Rommel, der Führer's "favourite general") -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 16:33, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
My messages are completely ingonred, and I think I need to make an explanation of all this. I added this list to make you easy who will be added - fine. Those people weren't my proposal, I just went to statistics of the article and saw who has the most views at List of Croats. Second "clean" Croats means that both their parents are Croats, since their ethnicity could be disputed as they are Croatian Americans. And I think Ivana b.m. should be replaced since ther are so many persons wich deserve to be on this list. Third, you can say I'm a fascist an all, but look at Georgians, they have Stalin listed, god damn, stalin, and you call me a fascist, what are they? KGB? My oppinion is, if person killed half of his country he is famous, should be listed, people know the guy. But, I'll agree if you don't. My oppinion is just that we should replace Ivana Brlić-Mažuranić.
Second, why not to add Cukela, he served a god damn foreign army?! So if he didn't served for Croatia he isn't Croat. Cukela is better then whole High Command of Croatia during our Independence War, why not to list him?!-- Wusten fuchs 09:18, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
Timbocu, if you read more about Cukela, you will learn that he didn't speak English so good, wher do you find "ethnic" American who deosn't speak his mother tounge? He spoke like a Taliban. And what does your "advenced" oppinion says about what is ethnicity, enlighte me, since I still live in 1874.-- Wusten fuchs 09:35, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
I didn't say "genital" but "female organs". That's a difference. I just say ther are far more notable and famous persons then Ivana Brlić-Mažuranić, but as you wish. No, I didn't mention Starčević, I did in earlier discussion with DIREKTOR, when we agreed on that, him and me. You probably ment Lavoslav Ružička, what ever. And, if I may, suggest to other editors that they consider that ther are far more "famous" perosns then her. I know they will try to ignore this, since I'm a "fascist collaborator" who plans an "8th offensive" against our people, but still, examples, Giulio Clovio, a Croat, italianized from Julije Klović, far more famous and notable in whole world. Example, he has 17.800 results at Google Books, while Ivana B-M has 4.080 results. It is clearly who, of those two, deserves to be on the Croats infobox. I'm sorry for noticing such important difference. And I mean, Clovio was painted by El Greco, that's far more better then translation of books...-- Wusten fuchs 13:56, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
But can we wait until DIREKTOR and Timbocu see this, so we will consider it? If they refuse to do so, then I agree on temporary solution you made, no problem.-- Wusten fuchs 17:19, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
This is not a morality contest so why is Pavelić being dismissed so quickly? -- ◅PRODUCER ( TALK) 21:36, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
Oh, I'm still a 19 Century chap, nice, Timbocu, please tech me, what is ethnicity, can I tell you, or qoute...? "An ethnic group (or ethnicity) is a group of people whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage, often consisting of a common language, a common culture (often including a shared religion) and an ideology that stresses common ancestry or endogamy." Here in 1874 we think the same as you in 29 Century, event though you are 1000 years beyond us, we don't mind. And yes, Malkovich is ethnic Croat as Tito, you know what we Croats like to say "Krv nije voda" :D But we ended with Malkovich. As for "famous" perosns, I'm firm with this, even somebody killed half of his country, was a traitor greater then that Norwege Quisling, murrder his family at sleep, but famous, even though he is a Canibal, should be listed in the infobox. About his ideology nobody cares, but the point why we add some persons to English article infoboxes about ethnicity is that when some American or Brit goes to article "Devils" (think it's an ethnic group) and nitices Lucifer at the infobox he can say like "Oh, look, I know Lucifer, he is a Devil (by ethnicity)". Capito? And like I said, if you all agree that we bann some people because of political reasons, fine for me, I'll agree on a temporary solution. Now, excuse me, I need to start my steam engine.-- Wusten fuchs 13:08, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
Why do you ask for Malkovich with those questions, I'll answer you:
Other Croats do see him as Croat, even he stated that he is of Croatian ancestry, and he has common heritage by his father line, common culture? well, ofcourse. Our culture is so americanized that it is almost same :D and religion is not a question, not at all. I was a former Catholic though. Atheists arent Croats? But, we agreed Malkovich won't get in, so why you care?
Anyways, footbalers are temporary famous persons, we can check Google Books, wich is more reliable. You know, and even in this way, I think that Pavelić would beat half of those you are proposing, isn't it?
Let's just see some results at Google Books, Josip Broz Tito - 46.200 results, very good; Ante Pavelić 21.200 results; Giulio Clovio 17.600 results, Dario Srna 121 results. We sort out this very easly :)-- Wusten fuchs 12:01, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
Brlić-Mažuranić is out. No available image, the one out there is non-free. It'll just get deleted if used in this way. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 16:53, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
So what do I do? To crop, or not to crop? I'll just let her dad hold a spot for her, for the time being. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 17:27, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
Well, I'm done. Do you think Tito will mind sitting next to Ivanišević? I mean, the man smokes pot... (yeah, you heard me, Ivanišević used dope - probably during Wimbledon too xD)
That said, how about adding Dražen Petrović? It seems he's pretty well known in the US (well, in Miami at least ;)). I mean, Blanka Vlašić goes out in the same pub I do, it seems kinda weird to have her up there alongside Tito and Jelačić and freakin' King Tomislav.. :) -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 18:25, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
Looks good DIREKTOR. Shame about the famouse Ivana. Fainites barley scribs 18:53, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
DIREKTOR, to be breif, it's just great. About Dražen Petrović, I don't think he can pass, his father was Montenegrin or Serb, not sure... And two sportspeople are good.-- Wusten fuchs 18:58, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
Well looks like we're done here. If you find the image is PD, please feel free to insert it as far as I'm concerned. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 17:21, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 8 |
You put images of Soljačić and Balić, and you don't put pictures of Krleža and many others more notable people. Unbelievable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.207.0.243 ( talk) 12:00, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
It is really strange that DNA is used to describe who are Croatians today?
Here is why
This analysis, however accurately counted chromosomes, did not prove to be quite trusty source of determining group of nations that one nation belongs. To be more precise, we can observe clear comment that Slavic is significant minority in what is Croatian composition today.
Well how will we explain following?
1. Soon after Slavs arrived in what is today land mass called Croatia, they were subdued by Byzantium and Holy Roman Empire/Austrian Empire/Hungarian Empire.
2. If previous is the case, how Slavs managed to impose their language as MINORITY in situation when they did not have power over Illyrian population since power was with e.g. Germans or Hungarians. How come that Slavic language prevailed? Normans were Ruling England for few centuries and could not impose French, but it went so well for Slavic minority in Croatia.
3. There are numerous examples of quite opposite. Whenever local (already Romanized) population outnumbered newcomers neither Slavic nor Germanic languages prevailed (Spain, Portugal, Italy, Romania even France). How come that predominantly local population, Romanized through centuries of Roman rule, could not impose some Romanic language over Slavic one that is today widely spoken in Croatia.
4. Especially, if we consider that Slavs did not hold their ground for a long and that all ever Croatian Kings have clear Slavic names (Zvonimir, Trpimir, …). They lost it to many conquerors like, Byzantines, Avars, Germans, and Hungarians... Why on earth they would favorite Slavs over local Romanic population.
No one can deny that every nation is not one genome nation, but mixture of many components. Question is do we sometimes try to interpret genome through the eye of politician and see what we really want to see.
5. Looking physical characteristics of Croatians today, they are much more alike to Serbs and Checks then like Germans or Italians. What if Albanians are Illyrians, as they claim? Then someone must be wrong. Seams to me that Croats look much more alike Serbs, Checks or Slovaks then they look like Albanians
Please read from very same Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania
This cannot be serious scientific article if Albanians and Croats can be simultaneously predominantly Illyrians considering so many differences in same arguments that are used for Croatian’s genome proof. Their genome is so way apart.
SOMETHING HERE IS WRONG AND ADMINISTRATOR SHOULD CORRECT IT! ONE STAND SHOULD GIVE UP SINCE THEY ARE DIRECTLY CONFLICTED!
This is reference to article:
“And the third conclusion from the genetic evidence points to the fact Croats are genetically heterogeneous, pointing to a high degree of mixing of the newly arrived medieval migrant tribes (such as Slavs) with the indigenous populations that were already present in the region of the modern day Croatia.[41] Hence, most modern day Croats are descended from the original European population of the region and have lived in the territory by other names, such as Illyrians and their forebears. These original inhabitants also served an important role in re-populating Europe after the last ice age” —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
174.6.22.245 (
talk)
09:39, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
Judging from the previous discussion on the subject, there is evidence that the 9 million figure may be too high. In this case, an alternative lower figure, based on probably more reliable sources, should be used in order to follow Wikipedia guidelines. Kostja ( talk) 12:48, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
The Catholic Encyclopedia, which is obviously a most reliable source as the Catholic church has been keeping records since the middle ages, states that some Hroats (Croats) are Western Serbs. I'm quite surprised because I thought that Catholic Encylopedia would do anything to suggest that Croats have always been their own ethnicity as opposed to merely one derived by Catholicism itself.
"While every other race in the Balkans, with the exception of the Western Serbs, called Hroats (Croats), went over to schism, the Roman Catholic faith ...."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01253b.htm - Look under religion. Lukic12345 ( talk) 20:45, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
Dependso who wrote that. But, it is clearly Croats aren't Western Serbs. Wikipedia isn't about making articles controversal or anything like that, for that you have You Tube, blogs etc, so do you best.--
Wustefuchs (
talk)
15:48, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
Or could you simply state that there are such a claims based on this and that yet no significant volume of data is available to make this view preveiling. Maybe even Serbs are Croatians. Maybe there are docuemnts of that kind. Or maybe you are both the same. But you are so clear on that. Exactly! Well said! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.216.132.111 ( talk) 03:26, 4 March 2011 (UTC) What about if you chose some political science rather then science like History should be??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.6.22.245 ( talk) 11:09, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
lol, I know I'm Croat... How do you know you are Serb? You sure you aren't serbianized Chinese? I wonder did you read new book by Šešelj - Rasrbljivanje Kineza...?-- Wustenfuchs ( talk) 12:14, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
User:DIREKTOR, I'm very sorry I need to mention your name in this section, however, stop adding Marhal Tito on Infobox. While he has 7 votes ther, many of Users stated they are against Tito's image on infobox. Understand, ther wasn't poll as for or against Tito, but only a polle who whants Tito's image on infobox. It is clearly, his image is highly disputed, makes article unstable, and it's only purpose are your "propaganda ambition". Your activity about Tito in this article is NPOV.-- Wustenfuchs ( talk) 13:37, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
It is also important to mention, 7 Users agreed to see Tito on the infobox, while 5 Users strongly opposed to Tito's image. We can count that as 7-5=2. Other people who were candidates don't have this problems, so they can pass. You see, from 12 votes made about Tito, seven voted yes while 5 voted no, wich means something. His adding to infobox will make article, as I sated, unstable and it serves only to some kind of political propaganda.-- Wustenfuchs ( talk) 13:58, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
Articles can't be fascist you know, and I'm not contributing just to this sort of articles. It seams you are active ther as my self because I see your activity on every "fascist" article. And maybe you should fallow my advice, since Rendulić is responsible for less murrders then Tito. Adding dictators on infoboxes about ethnic groups is not so great, you know, Hitler is far more famous (I'd say second person after Jesus :)), like Stalin too, but I won't say this two times. Like I said, 5 users were against, and we can make precedent about Tito. And if he remains on the infobox, then I need to congratulate you all chaps, because you made article unstable, and ther will be so much changes, so much talk at talk page, so many complains, but your way. I didn't made this section to promote my political attitudes (and as I can see you declared me a fascist, like I care), but to improve some articles at Wikipedia. About my activity at "fascist" articles, I can only say - I improved them grately. Before they looked like partisan propaganda 70 years old, now they really look like articles.
Reegards.--
Wustenfuchs (
talk)
17:45, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
And I forgot to mention you, how come Prelog (13 votes) is not included, while our beloved Comrade (7 votes) is? I hope you change this.-- Wustenfuchs ( talk) 18:01, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
The only reasons why DIREKTOR ( talk · contribs) insists on Tito is that he is a communist and Yugonostalgic and atheist (which can be clearly seen from his contributions). The issue of magazine covers and notability are total crap. There are other communist junk that were on coversIncluding gadafi Idi Amin, MObutu Sese seko, Ceausescu etc. There is also another equally notable Croat from the same period :Ante Pavelić- who is definitely one of the most notable. DIREKTOR, however, will never support his inclusion. - - Rerding to the election of Greatest Croat-it is election of left-wing tabloid.
and reverting cesorship by DIREKTOR by which he proves democratic customs inheritated from communists. Its politics, Enric, politics. :) You would be well advised to completely ignore the ultra-right-wing nonsense posted above by User:Wustenfuchs. Every person is entitled to his personal feelings, thoughts, and opinions, but when he/she posts them as though they were "facts", it falls to others to point out that not a single solitary respectable source supports them :P.
It is also interesting to note how User:Wustenfuchs compares Hitler, or Stalin, with a person who was decorated with the Grand Cross of the Legion of Honour for "preserving world peace" :). The idea that Tito is equivalent with Hitler, Pavelić, etc. can only be laughed at - not only by myself, but apparently by the majority of Croats as indicated by an actual professional study and poll. Such utterly absurd comparisons perhaps best illustrate the inherent agenda present in User:Wustenfuchs attempts, repeated over and over and over again, to get rid of a Croat he personally dislikes due to his own political views. Don't get me wrong, its ok to be "right-wing", nothing inherently "evil" about that, it is when someone wants to push politics into Wiki articles that one must oppose.
This person is not only the single Croatian person that affected world history more than any other, he is also one of the most important figures of Cold War history in general (the "leader of the Third World"). He is very likely the most internationally decorated and lauded person, not only among Croats, but in the world in general (119 awards and decorations from 60 countries). He is the only Croat ever to appear on the cover of LIFE or TIME, and he appeared seven times. He is the only Croat ever to receive the Legion of Honour, of any grade (he received the Grand Cross). He is by all accounts popular in Croatia as well, having won the 2003 " Greatest Croat" poll, and with a large square in the centre of the capital of Croatia (though of course, I cannot speak for Wustenfuchs and his pals :)). The funeral of Josip Broz Tito, at the time the largest state funeral in history by the number of attending state delegations, included four kings, 31 presidents, six princes, 22 prime ministers and 47 ministers of foreign affairs from 128 different countries. The WWII leader of Yugoslavia, upon his death the New York Times (and the western media in general) depicted him as the (quote) "last of the great WWII leaders". And he's a Croat. And we're actually disputing his inclusion? :) -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 19:32, 8 March 2011 (UTC) Ignore Tito, how come Prelog has 13 votes (6 more then Tito) and he is not included?, and no, he is not the only Croat with Legion of Honor award.-- Wustenfuchs ( talk) 14:01, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
As usual, I'll be objective and tell you that persons with the most votes should be included, and those are as fallows:
etc...
Another problem, some persons with large number of votes aren't included, you know witch. Our second problem, how did you get those images?
Ofcourse, historicly important persons like Tomislav should be included, no matter on number of votes, but what is with Prelog? What is with Meštrović? You know, you made another problem, maybe this old image was just ther for a shorter time and served as temporary solution. But we should fix this problem. And stop teling me about how succesfoul Tito was, I'm not stupid you know. Čiča Draža was also in Life magazine, he was very handsome ther :D
Are you, or we planing to repair this problem? I won't try to ask why you didn't included some persons, not my problem.-- Wustenfuchs ( talk) 14:15, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
“ | Josip Broz Tito is not only the single Croatian person that affected world history more than any other, he is also one of the most important figures of Cold War history in general (the "leader of the Third World"). He is very likely the most internationally decorated and lauded person, not only among Croats, but in the world in general (119 awards and decorations from 60 countries). He is the only Croat ever to appear on the cover of LIFE or TIME, and he appeared seven times. He is the only Croat ever to receive the Legion of Honour, of any grade (he received the Grand Cross). He is by all accounts popular in Croatia as well, having won the 2003 " Greatest Croat" poll, and with a large square in the centre of the capital of Croatia (though of course, I cannot speak for Wustenfuchs and his pals :)). The funeral of Josip Broz Tito, at the time the largest state funeral in history by the number of attending state delegations, included four kings, 31 presidents, six princes, 22 prime ministers and 47 ministers of foreign affairs from 128 different countries. The WWII leader of Yugoslavia, upon his death the New York Times (and the western media in general) depicted him as the (quote) "last of the great WWII leaders". And he's a Croat. | ” |
DIREKTOR, I must say, your main argument for adding Tito is number of votes... how people influenced the world is not your decision. Please, understand. If we want to be pure objective people, then we fallow this. I know you think I want to promote my "fascist" values and you maybe think my work here is something like 8th Enemy offensive, but bealive me, it's not so.
I'll tell you that scinetist are far more better to world then politicians. What one scientist done it remains forever, while it's not same for some politician. And I repeat, your argument was number of votes, if we want to remain rational, then we continue to fallow this.--
Wustenfuchs (
talk)
19:36, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
From wher did Dabčević-Kučar comed from? What are you doing and why? And I don't demand nothing, I propose, you don't even need to remove Tito, I fallow discussion from talk page what we discussed earlier. 5 was against. I don't have nothing against "Comrade Tito", after all he is Comrade, isn't he? And he is dead. But his appirience will damage stability of the article as I stated, and I'll tell that for more 100 times.
I just wonder, Dabčević-Kučar now, Strossmayer... we didn't even vote for those people. Ignore the discussion above, just tell me, according to what you add Strossmayer and Dabčević-Kučar? And I need to tell you that I appriciate your politeness. That is the best why a man can discuss.-- Wustenfuchs ( talk) 20:01, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
Oh, and entschuldigung if you insulted on Comrade Tito, it wasn't for you after all...-- Wustenfuchs ( talk) 20:04, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
Maybe I've got wrong impression, but I kinde have a feeling like you won't add Ante Starčević, even though he is one of the foundings of modern Croatian state, and we Croats like to refer him as Father of the Nation, he is one of the most famous historical persons in our history. As I can see only sort of politicians we have on the infobox are... well, they are a bit lefty, arne't they... Again, don't insult on this one.-- Wustenfuchs ( talk) 20:15, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
All good now, you found good photo. It can even serve to Ante Starčević article, good job I must say. You may understand now that his image contributes also to stability of the image, you know why and how. Once again, good photo.-- Wustenfuchs ( talk) 13:24, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
There is a mistake on this page. Ivo Andric was not Croat. He was Serb from Bosnia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.200.65.74 ( talk) 22:19, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
Tito under a checkerboard? Would die? :) Perhaps someone needs to enlighten the man to the fact that Croatia has a checkerboard coat of arms since 1939. And, I hate to be the one to say this, but you guys should all know that the only thing that matters here is whether the sources say Andrić or Tito were Croats, not whether we, or even they(!), felt themselves to be such.
The current infobox is very flexible, guys, that's why I chose it: it should be no problem to change any detail we don't like. The previous pic was non-consensus, where as for the new pic I (as much as I could) chose the folks we voted for above, though I was constrained by the lack of available photos (many even got deleted when I edited them). I also chose the format because it is obviously more complex and generally superior to a single-image collage, and the reason why I chose 4x4 is because that's how many images are usually used in this format, and I think anyone can see more would not look as good. Frankly I'm a little disappointed and annoyed - I had thought all my painstaking work to add a more detailed and complex improvement to the infobox might be appreciated, or at least not insulted and laughed at.. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 06:44, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
The reason I added the famous historical personages of our nation in the infobox's original draft (Starčević, Mažuranić, Gundulić, Tomislav I, Jelačić, Šubić Zrinski, Bošković, Petar Krešimir IV the Great) is because their notability is, objectively(!), HUGE. Adding sportsmen is.. ok, I guess, but I basically decided to leave it to other folks. The infobox can be easily edited - edit it!
Look you hate me or whatever, and I'm sory for that, but I'm not "arrogant". Did I not tell you just back there that the very reason I introduced this format is its flexibility? If you want to add/remove someone in particular to the infobox it can now actually be done more easily. Do you have any actual changes to propose? Lets discuss. Or do you just "hate me" and want to be insulting and start edit wars? -- DIREKTOR ( TALK)
Well I make that 8 reverts by DIREKTOR and 8 reverts by Timbouctou. Further more, this is a matter of hours after I protected Ante Pavelic for edit warring over an info box by you DIREKTOR. Any good reason why both of you should not be blocked because currently I can't think of one? Fainites barley scribs 21:26, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
Is everyone agreed that a box with lots of photos of Croats in it is a good idea? If so - how many people in the box are editors in dispute over? Fainites barley scribs 22:24, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
Here is Timbouctou's list, compiled from an older list on which there was voting. Ruđer Bošković, Andrija Mohorovičić, Vladimir Prelog, Josip Jelačić, Stjepan Radić, Josip Broz Tito, Ivan Gundulić, Ivan Meštrović, Vlaho Bukovac, Janica Kostelić, Goran Ivanišević, Blanka Vlašić, Alojzije Stepinac, Ivana Brlić-Mažuranić. Plus two of Dražen Petrović, Ivo Andrić, Davor Šuker, King Tomislav and Marko Marulić.
Here is DIREKTORs list taken from the infobox he put together. Tomislav, Peter Krešimir IV, Zvonimir, Marko Marulić, Nikola Š. Zrinski, Ivan Gundulić, Fran Frankopan, Ruđer Bošković, Josip Jelačić, Ivan Mažuranić, J. J. Strossmayer, Ante Starčević, Stjepan Radić, Josip Broz Tito, Ivo Andrić, Dabčević-Kučar.
There appears to be agreement on Ruđer Bošković, Josip Jelačić, Stjepan Radić, Josip Broz Tito, Ivan Gundulić, King Tomislav and Ivo Andrić. That's seven made up of 4 leader types and 3 scholar types, (1 scientist, 1 poet, 1 writer). No women. No sportspeople. That means we need to agree on either 5 or 9 more out of the following;
I will remove any more posts which grossly personalise the issue like yours did above DIREKTOR. Fainites barley scribs 15:24, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
We are going for consensus DIREKTOR. Looks as if Vladimir Prelog and Goran Ivanišević can be agreed. What do you say about Strossmeyer, Mazuranic and Marulic, Timbouctou? If we have 16, should we have father and daughter? Fainites barley scribs 16:56, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
OK. Thanks. So thats Ruđer Bošković, Josip Jelačić, Stjepan Radić, Josip Broz Tito, Ivan Gundulić, King Tomislav, Ivo Andrić, Vladimir Prelog, Ivana Brlić-Mažuranić, Ivan Meštrović, Blanka Vlašić, J. J. Strossmayer. If everybody is prepared to accept that they can't have all their favourites in, does this represent a fair consensus for 12? If we have 16 there is more leeway. Fainites barley scribs 13:19, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
I must say, I'm against Ivana Brlić-Mažuranić, she's unknown in English-speaking world, and she wasn't some writer either... And I agree on 16 persons on infobox. I don't know are those persons mentioned, but I'd include them: Ivan Meštrović, John Malkovich (ethnic Croat, no doubt about it, and more famous then JBT) -- Wusten fuchs 16:42, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
I can't bealive I hear this from you, what about Tito? He is also, only by his father side, a Croat, isn't he? :D But Malkovich is popular to English-speaking world, and when they see his last name I'm sure they won't see him as French. Ok, now, can someone, briefly, tell me wher we stand, 'cause I'm confused from all this discussion above.-- Wusten fuchs 17:49, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
What he needs to say? Sources say he was a Croat, you know that, by his ancestry, as stated in few. Why should he have something with Croatia? It doen't make him less Croat, is it? Our lefty politicians love to say it is a civic state, not a nation-state as stated in Croatian Constitution :). But my point is, he is famous chap to Americans, Brits and other English-speaking people, like they give a damn about his connection with Croatia. Like with Nikola Tesla, what the heck has he do with Serbia, but still he is on the Serbs infobox. His (Malkovich's) connection to Croatia is irrelevant.-- Wusten fuchs 19:55, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
Well, if we check List of Croats and see wich of those persons has the most views, we can solve the problem, like:
Now, here, people who are famous, no matter what they did or for who they did it, should be in the infobox. Georgians now have Stalin, he wasn't a saint (even though ther was a try to make him one), but he is famous, small kids know who Stalin was. Germans also wanted include Hitler, but Austrians were a bit angry about it... Etc. Now I think that, all persons wich were proposed above are here on this list, so we can now see who will be included, people with highest vote, that is first 16, or 12 or 8 persons, what ever, should be included, I hope you agree?-- Wusten fuchs 10:03, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
Back to serious business. I'll start fixing-up the images, I think we have a good enough consensus here. --
DIREKTOR (
TALK)
11:01, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
There's that fascist stuff again, Wustenfuchs.. As I said, you really don't need this. Quote:
[2]
“ | Our government's policy should be to kill a third of them [ethnic Serbs in the Independent State of Croatia], expel another third, and forcibly convert the remainder to Catholicism. Thus, our new Croatia will be rid of all Serbs in order to become one hundred percent Catholic within ten years. | ” |
— Mile Budak, Minister of Education in the Independent State of Croatia |
(P.S. Wüstenfuchs of course means "Desert Fox" = Erwin Rommel, der Führer's "favourite general") -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 16:33, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
My messages are completely ingonred, and I think I need to make an explanation of all this. I added this list to make you easy who will be added - fine. Those people weren't my proposal, I just went to statistics of the article and saw who has the most views at List of Croats. Second "clean" Croats means that both their parents are Croats, since their ethnicity could be disputed as they are Croatian Americans. And I think Ivana b.m. should be replaced since ther are so many persons wich deserve to be on this list. Third, you can say I'm a fascist an all, but look at Georgians, they have Stalin listed, god damn, stalin, and you call me a fascist, what are they? KGB? My oppinion is, if person killed half of his country he is famous, should be listed, people know the guy. But, I'll agree if you don't. My oppinion is just that we should replace Ivana Brlić-Mažuranić.
Second, why not to add Cukela, he served a god damn foreign army?! So if he didn't served for Croatia he isn't Croat. Cukela is better then whole High Command of Croatia during our Independence War, why not to list him?!-- Wusten fuchs 09:18, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
Timbocu, if you read more about Cukela, you will learn that he didn't speak English so good, wher do you find "ethnic" American who deosn't speak his mother tounge? He spoke like a Taliban. And what does your "advenced" oppinion says about what is ethnicity, enlighte me, since I still live in 1874.-- Wusten fuchs 09:35, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
I didn't say "genital" but "female organs". That's a difference. I just say ther are far more notable and famous persons then Ivana Brlić-Mažuranić, but as you wish. No, I didn't mention Starčević, I did in earlier discussion with DIREKTOR, when we agreed on that, him and me. You probably ment Lavoslav Ružička, what ever. And, if I may, suggest to other editors that they consider that ther are far more "famous" perosns then her. I know they will try to ignore this, since I'm a "fascist collaborator" who plans an "8th offensive" against our people, but still, examples, Giulio Clovio, a Croat, italianized from Julije Klović, far more famous and notable in whole world. Example, he has 17.800 results at Google Books, while Ivana B-M has 4.080 results. It is clearly who, of those two, deserves to be on the Croats infobox. I'm sorry for noticing such important difference. And I mean, Clovio was painted by El Greco, that's far more better then translation of books...-- Wusten fuchs 13:56, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
But can we wait until DIREKTOR and Timbocu see this, so we will consider it? If they refuse to do so, then I agree on temporary solution you made, no problem.-- Wusten fuchs 17:19, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
This is not a morality contest so why is Pavelić being dismissed so quickly? -- ◅PRODUCER ( TALK) 21:36, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
Oh, I'm still a 19 Century chap, nice, Timbocu, please tech me, what is ethnicity, can I tell you, or qoute...? "An ethnic group (or ethnicity) is a group of people whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage, often consisting of a common language, a common culture (often including a shared religion) and an ideology that stresses common ancestry or endogamy." Here in 1874 we think the same as you in 29 Century, event though you are 1000 years beyond us, we don't mind. And yes, Malkovich is ethnic Croat as Tito, you know what we Croats like to say "Krv nije voda" :D But we ended with Malkovich. As for "famous" perosns, I'm firm with this, even somebody killed half of his country, was a traitor greater then that Norwege Quisling, murrder his family at sleep, but famous, even though he is a Canibal, should be listed in the infobox. About his ideology nobody cares, but the point why we add some persons to English article infoboxes about ethnicity is that when some American or Brit goes to article "Devils" (think it's an ethnic group) and nitices Lucifer at the infobox he can say like "Oh, look, I know Lucifer, he is a Devil (by ethnicity)". Capito? And like I said, if you all agree that we bann some people because of political reasons, fine for me, I'll agree on a temporary solution. Now, excuse me, I need to start my steam engine.-- Wusten fuchs 13:08, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
Why do you ask for Malkovich with those questions, I'll answer you:
Other Croats do see him as Croat, even he stated that he is of Croatian ancestry, and he has common heritage by his father line, common culture? well, ofcourse. Our culture is so americanized that it is almost same :D and religion is not a question, not at all. I was a former Catholic though. Atheists arent Croats? But, we agreed Malkovich won't get in, so why you care?
Anyways, footbalers are temporary famous persons, we can check Google Books, wich is more reliable. You know, and even in this way, I think that Pavelić would beat half of those you are proposing, isn't it?
Let's just see some results at Google Books, Josip Broz Tito - 46.200 results, very good; Ante Pavelić 21.200 results; Giulio Clovio 17.600 results, Dario Srna 121 results. We sort out this very easly :)-- Wusten fuchs 12:01, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
Brlić-Mažuranić is out. No available image, the one out there is non-free. It'll just get deleted if used in this way. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 16:53, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
So what do I do? To crop, or not to crop? I'll just let her dad hold a spot for her, for the time being. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 17:27, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
Well, I'm done. Do you think Tito will mind sitting next to Ivanišević? I mean, the man smokes pot... (yeah, you heard me, Ivanišević used dope - probably during Wimbledon too xD)
That said, how about adding Dražen Petrović? It seems he's pretty well known in the US (well, in Miami at least ;)). I mean, Blanka Vlašić goes out in the same pub I do, it seems kinda weird to have her up there alongside Tito and Jelačić and freakin' King Tomislav.. :) -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 18:25, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
Looks good DIREKTOR. Shame about the famouse Ivana. Fainites barley scribs 18:53, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
DIREKTOR, to be breif, it's just great. About Dražen Petrović, I don't think he can pass, his father was Montenegrin or Serb, not sure... And two sportspeople are good.-- Wusten fuchs 18:58, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
Well looks like we're done here. If you find the image is PD, please feel free to insert it as far as I'm concerned. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 17:21, 6 April 2011 (UTC)