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I think many of the arguments here would be nullified if a change was made from "They are varieties of the Serbo-Croatian language..." into "They are varieties of the Serbo-Croatian macrolanguage" (source: http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=hbs) and in other similar claims —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.136.99.151 ( talk) 09:23, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
I had written the following in the first paragraph of the section Sounds:
But this was reverted. I have discussed it on User talk:Kwamikagami#Croatian language. I just posted this here for the sake of further discussion. (btw, what I wrote is basically based on what is written in "Stjepan Babić & Milan Moguš (2010). Hrvatski pravopis: usklađen sa zaključcima Vijeća za normu hrvatskoga standardnog jezika. Školska knjiga: Zagreb, Croatia. ISBN 978-953-0-40034-4 (Croatian)", p. 107).
— Preceding unsigned comment added by PrisonerOfIce ( talk • contribs) 08:07, 24 April 2011
We're talking about two different sets of diacritical marks: the five tonic accent marks (áàȁȃā) are never used to disambiguate; I have never seen them used for that purpose in a regular text. What is used for disambiguation is the circumflex, known as the "length sign" or "genitive sign", which, contrary to our article circumflex#Serbo-Croatian] (fixed now), indicates length rather than falling pitch (as written in Â#Croatian and Serbian, by myself). Someone has apparently conflated the circumflex with the inverted breve, which does indicate the falling pitch.
See e.g. http://www.srpskijezickiatelje.com/pravopis:ostali-znaci#toc2, for a (Serbian) Orthography citation; it's the same for Croatian, though I can't find a citation for it right now. No such user ( talk) 06:50, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
Babic & Mogus (2010) discuss this too:
Excerpt from pp. 108-109,
While the genitive sign might be more common than the other accents (according to the experiences of the people who write above), according to Babic & Mogus, what I wrote about disambiguating homographs is correct. On p. 107 they write,
I can't really be bothered transliterating the Cyrillic website source to properly read what it says, but Babic & Mogus is an authoritative source for standard Croatian, and I think it's best that we follow what it says, despite people's common experience as to how "common" these signs are. I think I even recall seeing them in a children's book, 'Heidi slavi Bozic', published in Croatia... does that count as "high-register"?
In any case, even if they are not widely used, since they are part of standard Croatian, isn't it our responsibility to document them here so that others too may no longer be left wondering what was meant by Skini to s vrata! :)
For those who haven't seen these signs much (maybe you've seen it more than you think but forgot about it), there might be a tendency to overreact, but the source is quite clear on this I don't really see what the issue is... I think that Stjepan Babić and Milan Moguš know what they're talking about.
PrisonerOfIce ( talk) 02:38, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
---"These dialects, and the four national standards, are commonly subsumed under the term "Serbo-Croatian" in English, though this term is controversial for native speakers[7] and paraphrases such as "Bosnian-Croatian-Montenegrin-Serbian" are therefore sometimes used instead, especially in diplomatic circles." --- Controversial? It describes the native speakers' views far too mild, almost in a politically correct manner, not to mention the quoted article (a politically biased one at that) does not contain that particular word. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
161.53.243.70 (
talk)
07:50, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
LOL @ page ratings. 78.0.192.242 ( talk) 14:35, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
"and paraphrases such as "Bosnian-Croatian-Montenegrin-Serbian" are therefore sometimes used instead, especially in diplomatic circles."
never heard about that. source? 93.136.117.52 ( talk) 11:12, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
The lead paragraph of this article should be more in line with the leads at Serbian language, Bosnian language, and Montenegrin language since these four lects form a clear and well-defined set of varieties of a common language. The leads should reflect that. -- Taivo ( talk) 14:30, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
You may have gotten the wrong impression, folks. This is not a vote (or poll). -- Director ( talk) 17:10, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
It seems clear to me that many of the editors expressing opinions above haven't bothered to actually look at the edit I made to see that it neither added nor subtracted information from the lead, but simply reordered it to bring it line with its sister articles at Bosnian language, Serbian language, and Montenegrin language. Here is the edit in question. -- Taivo ( talk) 17:11, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
There is a problem with a reference (current #4: Benjamin W. Fortson IV, Indo-European Language and Culture: An Introduction, 2nd ed. (2010, Blackwell), pg. 431, "Because of their mutual intelligibility, Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian are usually thought of as constituting one language called Serbo-Croatian.")
The source does not say that the Croatian is a collection of "varieties of the Serbo-Croatian language" as indicated in the article - hence that particular source does not support the claim made.-- Tomobe03 ( talk) 17:10, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
Sentence "Croatian, although technically a register of Serbo-Croatian, is sometimes considered a distinct language by itself." claimed to be supported by ref #13 (Cvetkovic, Ljudmila) is not really supported by the sentence. It contains a WP:WEASEL "sometimes" which is absent from the source - AGF inadvertently giving impression that it is rarely considered a distinct language, when opposite is generally the case.-- Tomobe03 ( talk) 18:01, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm here in an admin capacity, I don't do content disputes. I've had this page on my watch list since 2010 due to the constant disputes that crop here and to direct conversation as needed. You need to discuss the issue amongst yourselves and reach a consensus. If you can do that I can lift the protection earlier but the issues should be discussed as opposed to edit warring or seeking to exclude editors from the conversation citing various infractions, you all seem to be doing a good job on that since I protected the page, progress!! -- WGFinley ( talk) 18:36, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
Source #4 (David Dalby, Linguasphere (1999/2000, Linguasphere Observatory), pg. 445, 53-AAA-g, "Srpski+Hrvatski, Serbo-Croatian".)is problematic too. Unfortunately it is offline, but the Linguasphere website itself does not support the claim made in the reference quote as it states Srpski+Hrvatski (Serbian+Croatian) but branches further and in no place does it make the equation proposed in the reference quote. This in particular seems like a case of WP:SYNTH.-- Tomobe03 ( talk) 18:15, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
All of the above, and those are just the first few checked, are references which fail to directly support the claims in violation of WP:V. If one aims to support a claim that "Croatian language is a variety of Serbo-Croatian" or that it is "usually called Serbo-Croatian", one must provide sources claiming that verbatim (outside wiki per WP:CIRCULAR. Otherwise, that's WP:SYNTH or WP:OR no matter how compelling the case may be.-- Tomobe03 ( talk) 18:23, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
In sentence "Croatian will become an official EU language with the accession of Croatia, though when the other states accede, translation might not normally be provided between the various Serbo-Croat standards, and documents in other EU languages might not necessarily be translated into all of them." the reference #18 ("Vandoren: EU membership – challenge and chance for Croatia – Daily – tportal.hr". Daily.tportal.hr. 2010-09-30. Retrieved 2010-10-27.) does not support the last part of the sentence (starting with "though when other...") and this claim appears to be pure original research.-- Tomobe03 ( talk) 18:54, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
See from this source: Lewis, M. Paul ed. (2009). Ethnologue: Languages of the World, Sixteenth edition. Dallas, Tex.: SIL International. ISBN 1-55671-216-2; ISBN 978-1-55671-216-6, Online version: http://www.ethnologue.com/
Linguistic Lineage for Croatian
[hrv]
(Croatia)
Second link (complete Western):
Language Family Trees : Indo-European, Slavic, South, Western
[bos]
(Bosnia and Herzegovina)[hrv]
(Croatia)[srp]
(Serbia)[slv]
(Slovenia)Also relevant: so called Serbo-Croatian is per Ethnologue spoken only in the Republic of Serbia along with Serbian (4,500,000 speakers in Serbia), Romano-Serbian (172,000), Bosniac/Bosnian (135,000), Croatian language (114,000) and an unidentified number of Montenegrin language speakers in Mali Iđoš.
So called Serbo-Croatian is presented as A macrolanguage of Serbia not as a a macrolanguage of Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo, Romania, Montenegro, Croatia and Slovenia.
Source: Lewis, M. Paul ed. (2009). Ethnologue: Languages of the World, Sixteenth edition. Dallas, Tex.: SIL International. ISBN 1-55671-216-2 ; ISBN 978-1-55671-216-6, Online version: http://www.ethnologue.com/
Taivo and Kwami are inserting POV in this and other related articles. They have not cited properly. Everyone can see the source. Sad to see that my fellow editors who present the so called Serbo-Croatian do not cite extensively from the sources. Please document everything. Cite extensively. -- Sokac121 ( talk) 12:21, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
All parties are notified of protection and further disruption can lead to sanctions, please discuss the topic at hand in the section above. -- WGFinley ( talk) 21:41, 8 February 2012 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Folks, as indicated at the top of this talk page, this article is under WP:1RR pursuant to the Macedonia arbitration case. You are expected to hash out differences on the talk page and avoid making contentious edits to the article without consensus due to various national disputes. I've protected the article for 48 hours to give you an opportunity to discuss the changes and develop a consensus without further warring. Warring after protection expires will be subject to sanctions. -- WGFinley ( talk) 17:54, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
Direktor, your combative attitude is going to find you subject to sanction shortly. Your discussion on this page was essentially "I'll report you". That's not conducive to harmonious editing or working out any issues. Discussion should ensue as to the nature of the edits, sources and their validity to the article. You need a heaping dose of AGF and work a bit more with others instead of constantly running to various notice boards to report infractions. -- WGFinley ( talk) 18:15, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
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There are two separate issues that have become irretrievably comingled here.
I would like these two issues discussed separately, but am not sure how to separate them other than to start two new sections. -- Taivo ( talk) 18:52, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
No, it's that we're really tired of going over this over and over and over, because even if we satisfy you, there will soon be someone else making the same objections, and then someone else, and then someone else. Frankly, convincing you feels like a waste of time (no offense intended), because it won't actually solve the problem. This is the case for lots of articles that attract passionate POV battles, like homeopathic medicine. You could read the pages and pages of debate we've already had about this in the archives. The lit is quite clear: Serbian and Croatian are a single abstand language with multiple standardized registers. A pluricentric language, like Urdu or Malay. The common English name for that language is Serbo-Croatian. — kwami ( talk) 12:48, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
...colloquial Hindi and Urdu are all but indistinguishable, and even the official standards are nearly identical in grammar, though they differ in literary conventions and in academic and technical vocabulary, with Urdu retaining stronger Persian, Central Asian and Arabic influences, and Hindi relying more heavily on Sanskrit.
— taken from the lede of Hindi-Urdu.
Are there any objections remaining, or may users be allowed to repair the grammatically incoherent lede paragraph? -- Director ( talk) 17:08, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
Croatian (hrvatski jezik) is the collective name for varieties of the Serbo-Croatian language[3][4][5] spoken by Croats --> are all dialects of Croatian classified as Serbocroatian? Aren't there strong isoglosses between Croatian dialects? Once a Slavist told me that kay and shto dialects are more different when compared to each other than Ukrainian and Belarussian are. Is that true? Thanks 174.120.98.2 ( talk) 15:26, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
It is true, though. Kajkavian Serbo-Croatian is very similar to standard Slovenian. I've heard that the transition from Kajkavian Serbo-Croatian to Slovene (from Croatia into Slovenia) is "seamless", as it were. This was the basis for the 19th century notion of the Illyrian movement that Slovene is also part of the single "Illyrian language" (i.e. "Serbo-Croatian"). Also, from 1918 to 1943 this was the official state of affairs, the Serbo-Croato-Slovene language (Srpsko-hrvatsko-slovenski) was official in the whole of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia (it was renamed into "Yugoslav language" in 1929). Serbian nationalists, for another example, attempted to deal with that fact by proclaiming all Kajkavian-speakers to be "Slovenes" (that weren't aware of that fact), which, of course, actually includes the population of the Croatian capital Zagreb. Of course, according to them, most everybody else are "Serbs" (that just do not know it yet)... -- Director ( talk) 10:15, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Reading this ever-changing page I must repeat my comments from the past four years (as this page is constantly deleted and re-written, the history is lost, but many will recall my comments from the following remarks): I MUST wonder how many of you are actually professional linguists. There seems to be none around. Despite the heavy use of some "technical" words like "isoglosses", very little actually have any idea what they are talking about. A lot of political-nationalist opinion still prevails. As a Spanish, I am protected by both. As a linguist specialising in Slavic languages, I am informed well enough to shake my head at the comments and decisions the self-appointed "editors" and "admins" pretend to present as "authoritative".
You all need to get one thing in your non-lingustic heads: there is no such thing as a "croat" (hrvatski in reality), serbian (srpski), "bosnian" (bosanski) and/or montenegrin (crnogorski), languages.
I have posted a few years back a perfect example of absolute and total UNIFORMITY of the four listed "languages and invited all to tell me in which language the text was written. Hrvats were claiming "hrvatski", serbs were claiming "srpski".
The absolute fact was, and still is, that the text was written in ije-e-kavski neutral tone and no one could tell the difference.
That is because there is NO discernible difference in the grammar and linguistical construction between the "four languages". At best, there can be some regional characteristics in the speech, but these do not amount to even dialectal differences. Accent is not a dialectal identification, yet it is exactly the accent that makes up for the BULK of the differences that are often claimed as "determining differences" that somehow, magically, "prove" these four "languages" to be separate entities.
Here's another example that confirms beyond ANY doubts whatsoever that the fab "four" are one and the same language:
"Ana je krenula prema parku. Put kroz park je puno kraci nego glavnom cestom. Zimska vecer je brzo pala i lampe su se pocele polako paliti. Dan se u trenu pretvorio u noc. Zbog hladnoce park je bio pust. Napusten zapravo. Ni cesta nije bila nista bolja. Tek poneki auto bi prosao, brzo nestajuci u okrilju mraka. Ana je cvrsto stisnula torbu ispod ruke i sakrila sake duboko u dzepove svog kaputa. Ubrzala je korak, zamotala sal oko vrata i pokrila usta. 'Ova je zima rano dosla' pomislila je u sebi. Uz malo srece mozda nece dugo trajati."
I invite anyone up to the task to determine the "language" and elaborate the "conclusive differences".
There are NONE. This text is perfectly in line with grammar rules of "serbian", "croatian", "bosnian" and "montenegrin". That the current "authorities" (and by "authorities" I mean political and governmental entities) are working hard in Hrvatska to invent "old croatian" words, which have NEVER existed is a futile exercise in stupidity because the GRAMMAR is still the one and the same and those "old" new "croatian words are only testament to that stupidity because the "others" (serbs, bosnians and montenegrins) WILL understand them too.
This paranoid schizophrenia goes so far that the words are borrowed from other slavic languages in a panicking attempt to "prove" the "uniqueness" of "hrvatski". One such rediculous example is the word borrowed from Russian, of all languages, "glasovati" (to vote). Gramatically, it is absolutely wrong, and naturally, the other three "people"/"languages" are still using the correct word "glasati" for "to vote". Another word is "izbornik", "selector" in english. The term is a borrowed term from bulgarian: човек който избира - a man who chooses" - izbornik from izbira (chooses in english). Or existing words being used in a new context, like "gospodarstvo", which is now meant to mean "economy", although the original meaning of the word is a general description of a rural property belonging to a rich person - "gospodin".
The problem with all these "changes" is that, as said above, are perfectly understandable to the other three members of the serbo-croatian speaking club.
Another, my favourite, problem with the "hrvatski/croatian" being a "different language" is the most abused explanation: "hrvatski" is "ijekavski", while "srpski" is "ekavski". The thing is that polish and russian are ijekavski too. And "srpski" was ijekavski until just recently, when Obrenovic dynasty took over from Karadjordjevici and by decree introduced an ekavian" dialect as an "official" serbian language because Karadjordjevic was in favour of lingusitc reforms by Vuk Karadzic, who was in turn their vocal supporter. Until then, the ekavski variant was spoken by a minority of Serbs in central Serbia, from where Obrenovic dynasty comes from. Pure political perversity, just as the one currently undergoing in Hrvatska. Serbian orthodox priests still today serve the liturgies and sermons mostly in ijekavski. All Serbs from Hrvatska and Bosna are talking ijekavski.
In the meantime, majority of Hrvats are naturally kajkavians, and kajkavski is also official language of Slovenia... Cakavski, another supposedly "hrvatski language" itself has at least three different variants, one of them being ikavski, which is spoken also in Slovenia, Montenegro and Bosnian south where majority of Bosnian Hrvats AND Serbs live. And don't get me even started on ROMANIAN Hrvati and Srbi... Torlakian has as much with serbo-croatian as bulgarian has. Actually, Bulgarian and Macedonian are closer to Torlakian than serbo-croatian is, so what is that telling us...?
So, while your efforts to learn linguistics are commendable, I will reiterate my serious suggestion and invite you to move out of this nonsense and take up knitting or painting because what you are doing here (and this hysteria is not limited to serbo-croatian by any means. Danish/Norwegian/Swedish "languages" are in much the same waters. Most differences in these three dialects are actually in the alphabet and the way they write and talk, not in the grammar, as any of the people in any of the three countries will tell you if you ask them.) is pointless and scientifically speaking completely useless. Utter nonsense. Absolutely utter.
So, the truth about the fab four is that the differences are more regionally induced than linguisticallly. As Hrvati are the most vocal proponents of this nonsense that they speak somehow a different language when they themselves have parts of their own population speaking kajkavski, cakavski, ikavski, which are all significantly different to their current variant of serbo-croatian in the vocabulary, the question should be asked: how come one people speak all these different "languages" in their own country? And how did that come about? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.216.222.152 ( talk) 12:22, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
What is so "crazy" about the facts I wrote? The sample text is completely indistinguishable from the "hrvatski", "srpski", crnogorski" or bosanski" language perspective. They can all claim it is written in their language. It is also complex enough to cover significant part of grammar and confirm the unifying nature of the four "languages". Moreover, since majority of Hrvati speak KAJKAVSKI, not ijekavsko-stokavski, it is also clearly disputable to claim ijekavsko-stokavski as "hrvatski" language. Kajkavski is not a dialect, it is a language. It is official language of Slovenes, and very similar to Slovak. To this day none of my claims have been proven wrong, and I have been advocating this in scientific lingustic forums, where people actually know the difference and the meaning of the word "isogloss" . Unlike the "geniuses" here who keep throwing it around to fool others (and wrongly write it as "issoglose") that they know what they are ranting about, when they haven't got a clue. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
120.20.230.45 (
talk)
02:24, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
Wrong on all accounts. About a half of Hrvati speaks kajkavski. You have no idea what you are talking about. Of course Zagreb must be taken in account. Out of 4 millions of people living in Hrvatska, Zagreb has around 20% of that. Check the latest census for kajkavians in Hrvatska and that's another 25% (check the census for more info.)The fact that today's kajkavian in Zagreb is NOT "pure" is a fact of life. Evolutionary change resulting from local migrations. People move in and out, acquire the language and mix it with their own dialects. It is still kajkavian. And kajkavian is official language of Slovenija. That too is a fact. Your comment about "central Slovakian being "somewhat" similar to south slavic languages is a joke. I won't even waste the time to debate it as this is about South Slavic serbo-croatian. And I said that kajkavski and Slovenski are THE SAME, not similar as you, in your ignorance are trying to imply. Your arbitrary and insulting claims are not confirmed by any evidence and as such are self-dismissing. Careful with the language for I do not have patience for personal attacks.
I am still looking for anyone to disprove my statement about the sample text, and 2 years down the track not a single "Hrvat", Bosanac", Crnogorac" or "Srbijanac" came forth with evidence to prove that the sample text is NOT written in their dialect. Simply stating that any sentence, and this ignorant above did not specify WHICH SENTENCE may be "utterly ridiculous, is not good enough.
Why is that? That is because it is in PERFECT HARMONY with every single of those "four". And as such it proves undeniably that ANYONE who claims that "serbo-croat/croato-serbian is really four different languages is just a liar. A politically motivated ignorant with no knowledge and no credibility in linguistic matters. Show us the evidence or shut up. My duty as a linguist and a scientist is to fight and counter these fascist revisionists. This wiki page must change the name, as must all other "hrvatski", "srpski" etc "languages, in order to remain impartial.
I have also stated that ije- and e- kavstina are NOT exclusive differences of "hrvatski" and "srpski", as kajkavski is also ekavski Russian and Polish have both ijekavstina and ekavstina in use (although they are both predominantly ije-kavski, both language have many adjectives in e-kavstina). Examples: bIJEdnost in Russian is bIJEda in hrvatski, bEda in srpski (poverty in english). Another example: svJEtlošć in Polish, svJEtlost in Russian and hrvatski, svEtlost in srpski (light as in daylight in english) Who would be so stupid to conclude that they are "hrvatski" dialects?
This page must be rewritten and unified under one title because this is one single language. There are no "isoglosses", nor "diatribes" that can prove otherwise. If those who use these "big" words (for their ignorance) knew anything, they would know that these two (among myriad of other linguistic characteristics) do NOT define and/or constitute a LANGUAGE. At best they may be helpful in identifying a DIALECT. It's the grammar that defines a language. The grammar for "hrvatski", "srpski", "bosanksi" and "crnogorski" is absolutely the same.
And if the grammar is the same, then the language is the same too. Only politically and nationalistically blinded cannot accept that. Instead of "your sentence is 'utterly ridiculous'" I demand evidence of that. We all know that no one will come forth for they would be disintegrated on the spot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.20.155.211 ( talk) 02:05, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
Fool, not only standard language defines what a language is. Luckily, most Croats don't use the standard except in official documents etc. Not even most štokavians speak the standard Croatian at home. I speak čakavski and it's the most original Croatian language. First, most prestigious and the richest. And yet I respect other Croatian dialects and consider them parts of my own heritage. Linguist Babić said it well some time ago: "Croatian language is the interaction of Croatian speeches". Not any one speech/dialect alone, nor a standard, but all of them combined and their interactions. You're a fraud. A real linguist would know that yat reflexes are not very important (and no one with any knowledge would really compare a dialect with a yat reflex "kajkavski, cakavski, ikavski"),a nd especially wouldn't discard a basic term such as isogloss. You're a joke. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.136.93.189 ( talk) 12:15, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
I came here via RfC. My observations:
Summary: I would suggest removing the RfC tag. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff ( talk) 03:23, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
PRODUCER, you should really know better than do this or this. When editing a clearly controversial topic, you have to provide less than nonchalant reasons for such major removals, certainly not obviously flawed ones (removing a text with {{ cite journal}} as "unreferenced"), because otherwise they make you seem biased. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 08:06, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
As the Talk Page states in one of the headers, Serbo-Croation is the term used in English ..... etc.
I am a historian, not a linguist, so I can't professionally judge (or probably even read many) of the references for the article. But it would seem to be crucial for these two sections to be pretty "solid" citation-wise. I don't know if these have been inserted incorrectly - i.e. the previous editor(s) paraphrasing the various cites in the sections and someone wanting a note right at that point instead of the end of the paragraph - or if the particular wording isn't in the references. Whatever the case - i.e., aggressive nationalists dropping these tags in w/o good reason, or if footnotes are truly needed - but in my opinion these should be cleaned up in a timely manner so that the header on this Talk Page - which is desperately trying to stop some of the edit-warring that has gone on for years here and in the Serbian and Macedonian articles - has more weight to it. HammerFilmFan ( talk) 18:50, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
I had added info to the "socio-political standpoints" section of the article and removed pov assertions that were camouflaged as sourced facts, although they're not supported by the cited source (footnote 36). Furthermore, I added info regarding the origins of the term "Serbo-Croatian." The edit has been reverted arbitrarily by user kwamikagami without any explanation whatsoever, except the claim that the current text is a "consensus result." This is in conflict to wp:ver policy.
As he's already been reported by another user at wp:ani for similar actions related to other articles, I'd like to hear some opinions before I take further steps to rectify the matter. -- esse quam videri - to be rather than to seem ( talk) 12:01, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
And people wonder why I don't bother to justify everything I revert ... — kwami ( talk) 04:07, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
I'm totally disappointed with the first paragraph, which essentially states that Croatian language is no language at all, but some "standardized register". Is this article only about the Croatian standard? Because the term "hrvatski jezik", as understood here in Croatia, also encompasses all non-standard Croatian idioms. The first sentence is misleading (although not wrong by default) and unnecessarily restrictive. Not a very good way to start anything. I say that I speak hrvatski when I use my čakavica, not some standardized register or some Serbo-Croatian, because that is what my speech is. Also, reducing other Croatian dialects to some obscure notion of "other dialects spoken by Croats", apparently in order to fit them into your vision of how this article should look like, is a PC abuse of science. For Christ's sake, write this article so that everyone can understand it: that Croatian and Serbian standards are both based on neoštokavian dialect (already done) and that they, along with their respective non-standard idioms, form separate sociolinguistic entities (Dunatov, 1978) (not done). @HammerFilmFan - Your comment on "nationalist denial-fest" sounds a lot like communist paranoia about internal/external enemies we've had to listen here for quite a some time.
It can't be be much easier than this: - no one in world will say "I'm speaking Serbo-Croatian" - Serbo-Croatian is politically created language - Croatian and Serbian differs more and more, as it once was, as time passes since breakup of country that forcibly created that false language, so younger generations DO NOT understand Serbian as older! - further classifications of Croatian language in artificial and never really will cause storm of reverting article to the what it should be, as every single Croatian linguist is at alert because these misinformations - please, don't misinform millions of knowledge-thirsty people around the world; how about if I say that Hindi and Urdu are same language? OK, I can easily edit that article. So be it, Urdu and Hindu are same language
Well, bad example, maxbe I'll go with Moldovan/Romanian or Indonesian/Malaysian? Nevermind. Thing is, you misguide people into belief that there is some "Serbo-Croatian", while every single fact says it isn't so. EU will accept which language as new? Serbo-Croatian? Ooops, no. It will be Croatian. I live 30 km near Serbia, but don't much understand them completely because I hadn't education in country that actively promoted merging these languages - older people unfortunately do. So, you have your Croatian under false "Serbo-Croatian" flag very temporary, as I said, expect everyone to reverse it to normal. We don't need any Indian linguist to tell us what is it. "Potrošio sam cele hartije dobijene od plata i prodavnice mrkve za te nove pantalone" is Serbian sentence which in Croatian says "Potrošio sam sve papire stečene plaćom i prodavaonice mrkve kako bih stekao hlače". Sounds different? Oh, indeed. Nevermind, this article WILL NOT BE TOLERATED IN THIS WAY, and your project of equalizing Croatian with un-existing "Serbo-Croatian" is DOOMED, and we will fight for this, I promise you. Once again - Serbian and Croatian are different languages, just as Slovak and Czech, and false data on wikipedia will result in making them accurate! — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
AurgelmirCro (
talk •
contribs)
08:51, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
Easy slice! Taiko - there are countless linguists, both Croatian, but also Serbian (!), who dislike your idea - you think English ones are better linguists than ours??? So, they are from England and they are so smarta that we can't be such??? Try again, thank you very much. I don't understand Serbian, therefore there IS NO "SERBO-CROATIAN"...historic lie. And about blocking, kwami, try to block entire country of 4 million people. They will all be erasing your false statements. I am not important, but we are together - all.
And you will get ENDLESS flow of getting things to the right way. Once again - "serbo-croatian" is false, artificial language, and Croatian is real language in southern Slavic languages. This mission is fanatical. And not just mine...
He's likely right about the "ENDLESS flow". Might be a good idea to "alert the
authorities" and place the article on probation,
Kosovo-style, should this get out of hand. --
Director (
talk)
10:09, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
I'm sorry I must reiterate my previous contention but "Croatian will become an official EU language with the accession of Croatia" cannot and should not stand because of the plain crystal ball criterion. We simply don't know if Croatian will become anything in the near or distant future as simple as we don't know that "It will be the end of the world as we know it with coming of <insert_arbitrary_future_date_here_e.g._ 21st_Dec._this_year>". --biblbroks (talk) 21:51, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 14 |
I think many of the arguments here would be nullified if a change was made from "They are varieties of the Serbo-Croatian language..." into "They are varieties of the Serbo-Croatian macrolanguage" (source: http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=hbs) and in other similar claims —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.136.99.151 ( talk) 09:23, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
I had written the following in the first paragraph of the section Sounds:
But this was reverted. I have discussed it on User talk:Kwamikagami#Croatian language. I just posted this here for the sake of further discussion. (btw, what I wrote is basically based on what is written in "Stjepan Babić & Milan Moguš (2010). Hrvatski pravopis: usklađen sa zaključcima Vijeća za normu hrvatskoga standardnog jezika. Školska knjiga: Zagreb, Croatia. ISBN 978-953-0-40034-4 (Croatian)", p. 107).
— Preceding unsigned comment added by PrisonerOfIce ( talk • contribs) 08:07, 24 April 2011
We're talking about two different sets of diacritical marks: the five tonic accent marks (áàȁȃā) are never used to disambiguate; I have never seen them used for that purpose in a regular text. What is used for disambiguation is the circumflex, known as the "length sign" or "genitive sign", which, contrary to our article circumflex#Serbo-Croatian] (fixed now), indicates length rather than falling pitch (as written in Â#Croatian and Serbian, by myself). Someone has apparently conflated the circumflex with the inverted breve, which does indicate the falling pitch.
See e.g. http://www.srpskijezickiatelje.com/pravopis:ostali-znaci#toc2, for a (Serbian) Orthography citation; it's the same for Croatian, though I can't find a citation for it right now. No such user ( talk) 06:50, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
Babic & Mogus (2010) discuss this too:
Excerpt from pp. 108-109,
While the genitive sign might be more common than the other accents (according to the experiences of the people who write above), according to Babic & Mogus, what I wrote about disambiguating homographs is correct. On p. 107 they write,
I can't really be bothered transliterating the Cyrillic website source to properly read what it says, but Babic & Mogus is an authoritative source for standard Croatian, and I think it's best that we follow what it says, despite people's common experience as to how "common" these signs are. I think I even recall seeing them in a children's book, 'Heidi slavi Bozic', published in Croatia... does that count as "high-register"?
In any case, even if they are not widely used, since they are part of standard Croatian, isn't it our responsibility to document them here so that others too may no longer be left wondering what was meant by Skini to s vrata! :)
For those who haven't seen these signs much (maybe you've seen it more than you think but forgot about it), there might be a tendency to overreact, but the source is quite clear on this I don't really see what the issue is... I think that Stjepan Babić and Milan Moguš know what they're talking about.
PrisonerOfIce ( talk) 02:38, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
---"These dialects, and the four national standards, are commonly subsumed under the term "Serbo-Croatian" in English, though this term is controversial for native speakers[7] and paraphrases such as "Bosnian-Croatian-Montenegrin-Serbian" are therefore sometimes used instead, especially in diplomatic circles." --- Controversial? It describes the native speakers' views far too mild, almost in a politically correct manner, not to mention the quoted article (a politically biased one at that) does not contain that particular word. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
161.53.243.70 (
talk)
07:50, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
LOL @ page ratings. 78.0.192.242 ( talk) 14:35, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
"and paraphrases such as "Bosnian-Croatian-Montenegrin-Serbian" are therefore sometimes used instead, especially in diplomatic circles."
never heard about that. source? 93.136.117.52 ( talk) 11:12, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
The lead paragraph of this article should be more in line with the leads at Serbian language, Bosnian language, and Montenegrin language since these four lects form a clear and well-defined set of varieties of a common language. The leads should reflect that. -- Taivo ( talk) 14:30, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
You may have gotten the wrong impression, folks. This is not a vote (or poll). -- Director ( talk) 17:10, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
It seems clear to me that many of the editors expressing opinions above haven't bothered to actually look at the edit I made to see that it neither added nor subtracted information from the lead, but simply reordered it to bring it line with its sister articles at Bosnian language, Serbian language, and Montenegrin language. Here is the edit in question. -- Taivo ( talk) 17:11, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
There is a problem with a reference (current #4: Benjamin W. Fortson IV, Indo-European Language and Culture: An Introduction, 2nd ed. (2010, Blackwell), pg. 431, "Because of their mutual intelligibility, Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian are usually thought of as constituting one language called Serbo-Croatian.")
The source does not say that the Croatian is a collection of "varieties of the Serbo-Croatian language" as indicated in the article - hence that particular source does not support the claim made.-- Tomobe03 ( talk) 17:10, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
Sentence "Croatian, although technically a register of Serbo-Croatian, is sometimes considered a distinct language by itself." claimed to be supported by ref #13 (Cvetkovic, Ljudmila) is not really supported by the sentence. It contains a WP:WEASEL "sometimes" which is absent from the source - AGF inadvertently giving impression that it is rarely considered a distinct language, when opposite is generally the case.-- Tomobe03 ( talk) 18:01, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm here in an admin capacity, I don't do content disputes. I've had this page on my watch list since 2010 due to the constant disputes that crop here and to direct conversation as needed. You need to discuss the issue amongst yourselves and reach a consensus. If you can do that I can lift the protection earlier but the issues should be discussed as opposed to edit warring or seeking to exclude editors from the conversation citing various infractions, you all seem to be doing a good job on that since I protected the page, progress!! -- WGFinley ( talk) 18:36, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
Source #4 (David Dalby, Linguasphere (1999/2000, Linguasphere Observatory), pg. 445, 53-AAA-g, "Srpski+Hrvatski, Serbo-Croatian".)is problematic too. Unfortunately it is offline, but the Linguasphere website itself does not support the claim made in the reference quote as it states Srpski+Hrvatski (Serbian+Croatian) but branches further and in no place does it make the equation proposed in the reference quote. This in particular seems like a case of WP:SYNTH.-- Tomobe03 ( talk) 18:15, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
All of the above, and those are just the first few checked, are references which fail to directly support the claims in violation of WP:V. If one aims to support a claim that "Croatian language is a variety of Serbo-Croatian" or that it is "usually called Serbo-Croatian", one must provide sources claiming that verbatim (outside wiki per WP:CIRCULAR. Otherwise, that's WP:SYNTH or WP:OR no matter how compelling the case may be.-- Tomobe03 ( talk) 18:23, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
In sentence "Croatian will become an official EU language with the accession of Croatia, though when the other states accede, translation might not normally be provided between the various Serbo-Croat standards, and documents in other EU languages might not necessarily be translated into all of them." the reference #18 ("Vandoren: EU membership – challenge and chance for Croatia – Daily – tportal.hr". Daily.tportal.hr. 2010-09-30. Retrieved 2010-10-27.) does not support the last part of the sentence (starting with "though when other...") and this claim appears to be pure original research.-- Tomobe03 ( talk) 18:54, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
See from this source: Lewis, M. Paul ed. (2009). Ethnologue: Languages of the World, Sixteenth edition. Dallas, Tex.: SIL International. ISBN 1-55671-216-2; ISBN 978-1-55671-216-6, Online version: http://www.ethnologue.com/
Linguistic Lineage for Croatian
[hrv]
(Croatia)
Second link (complete Western):
Language Family Trees : Indo-European, Slavic, South, Western
[bos]
(Bosnia and Herzegovina)[hrv]
(Croatia)[srp]
(Serbia)[slv]
(Slovenia)Also relevant: so called Serbo-Croatian is per Ethnologue spoken only in the Republic of Serbia along with Serbian (4,500,000 speakers in Serbia), Romano-Serbian (172,000), Bosniac/Bosnian (135,000), Croatian language (114,000) and an unidentified number of Montenegrin language speakers in Mali Iđoš.
So called Serbo-Croatian is presented as A macrolanguage of Serbia not as a a macrolanguage of Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo, Romania, Montenegro, Croatia and Slovenia.
Source: Lewis, M. Paul ed. (2009). Ethnologue: Languages of the World, Sixteenth edition. Dallas, Tex.: SIL International. ISBN 1-55671-216-2 ; ISBN 978-1-55671-216-6, Online version: http://www.ethnologue.com/
Taivo and Kwami are inserting POV in this and other related articles. They have not cited properly. Everyone can see the source. Sad to see that my fellow editors who present the so called Serbo-Croatian do not cite extensively from the sources. Please document everything. Cite extensively. -- Sokac121 ( talk) 12:21, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
All parties are notified of protection and further disruption can lead to sanctions, please discuss the topic at hand in the section above. -- WGFinley ( talk) 21:41, 8 February 2012 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Folks, as indicated at the top of this talk page, this article is under WP:1RR pursuant to the Macedonia arbitration case. You are expected to hash out differences on the talk page and avoid making contentious edits to the article without consensus due to various national disputes. I've protected the article for 48 hours to give you an opportunity to discuss the changes and develop a consensus without further warring. Warring after protection expires will be subject to sanctions. -- WGFinley ( talk) 17:54, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
Direktor, your combative attitude is going to find you subject to sanction shortly. Your discussion on this page was essentially "I'll report you". That's not conducive to harmonious editing or working out any issues. Discussion should ensue as to the nature of the edits, sources and their validity to the article. You need a heaping dose of AGF and work a bit more with others instead of constantly running to various notice boards to report infractions. -- WGFinley ( talk) 18:15, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
|
There are two separate issues that have become irretrievably comingled here.
I would like these two issues discussed separately, but am not sure how to separate them other than to start two new sections. -- Taivo ( talk) 18:52, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
No, it's that we're really tired of going over this over and over and over, because even if we satisfy you, there will soon be someone else making the same objections, and then someone else, and then someone else. Frankly, convincing you feels like a waste of time (no offense intended), because it won't actually solve the problem. This is the case for lots of articles that attract passionate POV battles, like homeopathic medicine. You could read the pages and pages of debate we've already had about this in the archives. The lit is quite clear: Serbian and Croatian are a single abstand language with multiple standardized registers. A pluricentric language, like Urdu or Malay. The common English name for that language is Serbo-Croatian. — kwami ( talk) 12:48, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
...colloquial Hindi and Urdu are all but indistinguishable, and even the official standards are nearly identical in grammar, though they differ in literary conventions and in academic and technical vocabulary, with Urdu retaining stronger Persian, Central Asian and Arabic influences, and Hindi relying more heavily on Sanskrit.
— taken from the lede of Hindi-Urdu.
Are there any objections remaining, or may users be allowed to repair the grammatically incoherent lede paragraph? -- Director ( talk) 17:08, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
Croatian (hrvatski jezik) is the collective name for varieties of the Serbo-Croatian language[3][4][5] spoken by Croats --> are all dialects of Croatian classified as Serbocroatian? Aren't there strong isoglosses between Croatian dialects? Once a Slavist told me that kay and shto dialects are more different when compared to each other than Ukrainian and Belarussian are. Is that true? Thanks 174.120.98.2 ( talk) 15:26, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
It is true, though. Kajkavian Serbo-Croatian is very similar to standard Slovenian. I've heard that the transition from Kajkavian Serbo-Croatian to Slovene (from Croatia into Slovenia) is "seamless", as it were. This was the basis for the 19th century notion of the Illyrian movement that Slovene is also part of the single "Illyrian language" (i.e. "Serbo-Croatian"). Also, from 1918 to 1943 this was the official state of affairs, the Serbo-Croato-Slovene language (Srpsko-hrvatsko-slovenski) was official in the whole of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia (it was renamed into "Yugoslav language" in 1929). Serbian nationalists, for another example, attempted to deal with that fact by proclaiming all Kajkavian-speakers to be "Slovenes" (that weren't aware of that fact), which, of course, actually includes the population of the Croatian capital Zagreb. Of course, according to them, most everybody else are "Serbs" (that just do not know it yet)... -- Director ( talk) 10:15, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Reading this ever-changing page I must repeat my comments from the past four years (as this page is constantly deleted and re-written, the history is lost, but many will recall my comments from the following remarks): I MUST wonder how many of you are actually professional linguists. There seems to be none around. Despite the heavy use of some "technical" words like "isoglosses", very little actually have any idea what they are talking about. A lot of political-nationalist opinion still prevails. As a Spanish, I am protected by both. As a linguist specialising in Slavic languages, I am informed well enough to shake my head at the comments and decisions the self-appointed "editors" and "admins" pretend to present as "authoritative".
You all need to get one thing in your non-lingustic heads: there is no such thing as a "croat" (hrvatski in reality), serbian (srpski), "bosnian" (bosanski) and/or montenegrin (crnogorski), languages.
I have posted a few years back a perfect example of absolute and total UNIFORMITY of the four listed "languages and invited all to tell me in which language the text was written. Hrvats were claiming "hrvatski", serbs were claiming "srpski".
The absolute fact was, and still is, that the text was written in ije-e-kavski neutral tone and no one could tell the difference.
That is because there is NO discernible difference in the grammar and linguistical construction between the "four languages". At best, there can be some regional characteristics in the speech, but these do not amount to even dialectal differences. Accent is not a dialectal identification, yet it is exactly the accent that makes up for the BULK of the differences that are often claimed as "determining differences" that somehow, magically, "prove" these four "languages" to be separate entities.
Here's another example that confirms beyond ANY doubts whatsoever that the fab "four" are one and the same language:
"Ana je krenula prema parku. Put kroz park je puno kraci nego glavnom cestom. Zimska vecer je brzo pala i lampe su se pocele polako paliti. Dan se u trenu pretvorio u noc. Zbog hladnoce park je bio pust. Napusten zapravo. Ni cesta nije bila nista bolja. Tek poneki auto bi prosao, brzo nestajuci u okrilju mraka. Ana je cvrsto stisnula torbu ispod ruke i sakrila sake duboko u dzepove svog kaputa. Ubrzala je korak, zamotala sal oko vrata i pokrila usta. 'Ova je zima rano dosla' pomislila je u sebi. Uz malo srece mozda nece dugo trajati."
I invite anyone up to the task to determine the "language" and elaborate the "conclusive differences".
There are NONE. This text is perfectly in line with grammar rules of "serbian", "croatian", "bosnian" and "montenegrin". That the current "authorities" (and by "authorities" I mean political and governmental entities) are working hard in Hrvatska to invent "old croatian" words, which have NEVER existed is a futile exercise in stupidity because the GRAMMAR is still the one and the same and those "old" new "croatian words are only testament to that stupidity because the "others" (serbs, bosnians and montenegrins) WILL understand them too.
This paranoid schizophrenia goes so far that the words are borrowed from other slavic languages in a panicking attempt to "prove" the "uniqueness" of "hrvatski". One such rediculous example is the word borrowed from Russian, of all languages, "glasovati" (to vote). Gramatically, it is absolutely wrong, and naturally, the other three "people"/"languages" are still using the correct word "glasati" for "to vote". Another word is "izbornik", "selector" in english. The term is a borrowed term from bulgarian: човек който избира - a man who chooses" - izbornik from izbira (chooses in english). Or existing words being used in a new context, like "gospodarstvo", which is now meant to mean "economy", although the original meaning of the word is a general description of a rural property belonging to a rich person - "gospodin".
The problem with all these "changes" is that, as said above, are perfectly understandable to the other three members of the serbo-croatian speaking club.
Another, my favourite, problem with the "hrvatski/croatian" being a "different language" is the most abused explanation: "hrvatski" is "ijekavski", while "srpski" is "ekavski". The thing is that polish and russian are ijekavski too. And "srpski" was ijekavski until just recently, when Obrenovic dynasty took over from Karadjordjevici and by decree introduced an ekavian" dialect as an "official" serbian language because Karadjordjevic was in favour of lingusitc reforms by Vuk Karadzic, who was in turn their vocal supporter. Until then, the ekavski variant was spoken by a minority of Serbs in central Serbia, from where Obrenovic dynasty comes from. Pure political perversity, just as the one currently undergoing in Hrvatska. Serbian orthodox priests still today serve the liturgies and sermons mostly in ijekavski. All Serbs from Hrvatska and Bosna are talking ijekavski.
In the meantime, majority of Hrvats are naturally kajkavians, and kajkavski is also official language of Slovenia... Cakavski, another supposedly "hrvatski language" itself has at least three different variants, one of them being ikavski, which is spoken also in Slovenia, Montenegro and Bosnian south where majority of Bosnian Hrvats AND Serbs live. And don't get me even started on ROMANIAN Hrvati and Srbi... Torlakian has as much with serbo-croatian as bulgarian has. Actually, Bulgarian and Macedonian are closer to Torlakian than serbo-croatian is, so what is that telling us...?
So, while your efforts to learn linguistics are commendable, I will reiterate my serious suggestion and invite you to move out of this nonsense and take up knitting or painting because what you are doing here (and this hysteria is not limited to serbo-croatian by any means. Danish/Norwegian/Swedish "languages" are in much the same waters. Most differences in these three dialects are actually in the alphabet and the way they write and talk, not in the grammar, as any of the people in any of the three countries will tell you if you ask them.) is pointless and scientifically speaking completely useless. Utter nonsense. Absolutely utter.
So, the truth about the fab four is that the differences are more regionally induced than linguisticallly. As Hrvati are the most vocal proponents of this nonsense that they speak somehow a different language when they themselves have parts of their own population speaking kajkavski, cakavski, ikavski, which are all significantly different to their current variant of serbo-croatian in the vocabulary, the question should be asked: how come one people speak all these different "languages" in their own country? And how did that come about? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.216.222.152 ( talk) 12:22, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
What is so "crazy" about the facts I wrote? The sample text is completely indistinguishable from the "hrvatski", "srpski", crnogorski" or bosanski" language perspective. They can all claim it is written in their language. It is also complex enough to cover significant part of grammar and confirm the unifying nature of the four "languages". Moreover, since majority of Hrvati speak KAJKAVSKI, not ijekavsko-stokavski, it is also clearly disputable to claim ijekavsko-stokavski as "hrvatski" language. Kajkavski is not a dialect, it is a language. It is official language of Slovenes, and very similar to Slovak. To this day none of my claims have been proven wrong, and I have been advocating this in scientific lingustic forums, where people actually know the difference and the meaning of the word "isogloss" . Unlike the "geniuses" here who keep throwing it around to fool others (and wrongly write it as "issoglose") that they know what they are ranting about, when they haven't got a clue. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
120.20.230.45 (
talk)
02:24, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
Wrong on all accounts. About a half of Hrvati speaks kajkavski. You have no idea what you are talking about. Of course Zagreb must be taken in account. Out of 4 millions of people living in Hrvatska, Zagreb has around 20% of that. Check the latest census for kajkavians in Hrvatska and that's another 25% (check the census for more info.)The fact that today's kajkavian in Zagreb is NOT "pure" is a fact of life. Evolutionary change resulting from local migrations. People move in and out, acquire the language and mix it with their own dialects. It is still kajkavian. And kajkavian is official language of Slovenija. That too is a fact. Your comment about "central Slovakian being "somewhat" similar to south slavic languages is a joke. I won't even waste the time to debate it as this is about South Slavic serbo-croatian. And I said that kajkavski and Slovenski are THE SAME, not similar as you, in your ignorance are trying to imply. Your arbitrary and insulting claims are not confirmed by any evidence and as such are self-dismissing. Careful with the language for I do not have patience for personal attacks.
I am still looking for anyone to disprove my statement about the sample text, and 2 years down the track not a single "Hrvat", Bosanac", Crnogorac" or "Srbijanac" came forth with evidence to prove that the sample text is NOT written in their dialect. Simply stating that any sentence, and this ignorant above did not specify WHICH SENTENCE may be "utterly ridiculous, is not good enough.
Why is that? That is because it is in PERFECT HARMONY with every single of those "four". And as such it proves undeniably that ANYONE who claims that "serbo-croat/croato-serbian is really four different languages is just a liar. A politically motivated ignorant with no knowledge and no credibility in linguistic matters. Show us the evidence or shut up. My duty as a linguist and a scientist is to fight and counter these fascist revisionists. This wiki page must change the name, as must all other "hrvatski", "srpski" etc "languages, in order to remain impartial.
I have also stated that ije- and e- kavstina are NOT exclusive differences of "hrvatski" and "srpski", as kajkavski is also ekavski Russian and Polish have both ijekavstina and ekavstina in use (although they are both predominantly ije-kavski, both language have many adjectives in e-kavstina). Examples: bIJEdnost in Russian is bIJEda in hrvatski, bEda in srpski (poverty in english). Another example: svJEtlošć in Polish, svJEtlost in Russian and hrvatski, svEtlost in srpski (light as in daylight in english) Who would be so stupid to conclude that they are "hrvatski" dialects?
This page must be rewritten and unified under one title because this is one single language. There are no "isoglosses", nor "diatribes" that can prove otherwise. If those who use these "big" words (for their ignorance) knew anything, they would know that these two (among myriad of other linguistic characteristics) do NOT define and/or constitute a LANGUAGE. At best they may be helpful in identifying a DIALECT. It's the grammar that defines a language. The grammar for "hrvatski", "srpski", "bosanksi" and "crnogorski" is absolutely the same.
And if the grammar is the same, then the language is the same too. Only politically and nationalistically blinded cannot accept that. Instead of "your sentence is 'utterly ridiculous'" I demand evidence of that. We all know that no one will come forth for they would be disintegrated on the spot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.20.155.211 ( talk) 02:05, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
Fool, not only standard language defines what a language is. Luckily, most Croats don't use the standard except in official documents etc. Not even most štokavians speak the standard Croatian at home. I speak čakavski and it's the most original Croatian language. First, most prestigious and the richest. And yet I respect other Croatian dialects and consider them parts of my own heritage. Linguist Babić said it well some time ago: "Croatian language is the interaction of Croatian speeches". Not any one speech/dialect alone, nor a standard, but all of them combined and their interactions. You're a fraud. A real linguist would know that yat reflexes are not very important (and no one with any knowledge would really compare a dialect with a yat reflex "kajkavski, cakavski, ikavski"),a nd especially wouldn't discard a basic term such as isogloss. You're a joke. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.136.93.189 ( talk) 12:15, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
I came here via RfC. My observations:
Summary: I would suggest removing the RfC tag. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff ( talk) 03:23, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
PRODUCER, you should really know better than do this or this. When editing a clearly controversial topic, you have to provide less than nonchalant reasons for such major removals, certainly not obviously flawed ones (removing a text with {{ cite journal}} as "unreferenced"), because otherwise they make you seem biased. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 08:06, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
As the Talk Page states in one of the headers, Serbo-Croation is the term used in English ..... etc.
I am a historian, not a linguist, so I can't professionally judge (or probably even read many) of the references for the article. But it would seem to be crucial for these two sections to be pretty "solid" citation-wise. I don't know if these have been inserted incorrectly - i.e. the previous editor(s) paraphrasing the various cites in the sections and someone wanting a note right at that point instead of the end of the paragraph - or if the particular wording isn't in the references. Whatever the case - i.e., aggressive nationalists dropping these tags in w/o good reason, or if footnotes are truly needed - but in my opinion these should be cleaned up in a timely manner so that the header on this Talk Page - which is desperately trying to stop some of the edit-warring that has gone on for years here and in the Serbian and Macedonian articles - has more weight to it. HammerFilmFan ( talk) 18:50, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
I had added info to the "socio-political standpoints" section of the article and removed pov assertions that were camouflaged as sourced facts, although they're not supported by the cited source (footnote 36). Furthermore, I added info regarding the origins of the term "Serbo-Croatian." The edit has been reverted arbitrarily by user kwamikagami without any explanation whatsoever, except the claim that the current text is a "consensus result." This is in conflict to wp:ver policy.
As he's already been reported by another user at wp:ani for similar actions related to other articles, I'd like to hear some opinions before I take further steps to rectify the matter. -- esse quam videri - to be rather than to seem ( talk) 12:01, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
And people wonder why I don't bother to justify everything I revert ... — kwami ( talk) 04:07, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
I'm totally disappointed with the first paragraph, which essentially states that Croatian language is no language at all, but some "standardized register". Is this article only about the Croatian standard? Because the term "hrvatski jezik", as understood here in Croatia, also encompasses all non-standard Croatian idioms. The first sentence is misleading (although not wrong by default) and unnecessarily restrictive. Not a very good way to start anything. I say that I speak hrvatski when I use my čakavica, not some standardized register or some Serbo-Croatian, because that is what my speech is. Also, reducing other Croatian dialects to some obscure notion of "other dialects spoken by Croats", apparently in order to fit them into your vision of how this article should look like, is a PC abuse of science. For Christ's sake, write this article so that everyone can understand it: that Croatian and Serbian standards are both based on neoštokavian dialect (already done) and that they, along with their respective non-standard idioms, form separate sociolinguistic entities (Dunatov, 1978) (not done). @HammerFilmFan - Your comment on "nationalist denial-fest" sounds a lot like communist paranoia about internal/external enemies we've had to listen here for quite a some time.
It can't be be much easier than this: - no one in world will say "I'm speaking Serbo-Croatian" - Serbo-Croatian is politically created language - Croatian and Serbian differs more and more, as it once was, as time passes since breakup of country that forcibly created that false language, so younger generations DO NOT understand Serbian as older! - further classifications of Croatian language in artificial and never really will cause storm of reverting article to the what it should be, as every single Croatian linguist is at alert because these misinformations - please, don't misinform millions of knowledge-thirsty people around the world; how about if I say that Hindi and Urdu are same language? OK, I can easily edit that article. So be it, Urdu and Hindu are same language
Well, bad example, maxbe I'll go with Moldovan/Romanian or Indonesian/Malaysian? Nevermind. Thing is, you misguide people into belief that there is some "Serbo-Croatian", while every single fact says it isn't so. EU will accept which language as new? Serbo-Croatian? Ooops, no. It will be Croatian. I live 30 km near Serbia, but don't much understand them completely because I hadn't education in country that actively promoted merging these languages - older people unfortunately do. So, you have your Croatian under false "Serbo-Croatian" flag very temporary, as I said, expect everyone to reverse it to normal. We don't need any Indian linguist to tell us what is it. "Potrošio sam cele hartije dobijene od plata i prodavnice mrkve za te nove pantalone" is Serbian sentence which in Croatian says "Potrošio sam sve papire stečene plaćom i prodavaonice mrkve kako bih stekao hlače". Sounds different? Oh, indeed. Nevermind, this article WILL NOT BE TOLERATED IN THIS WAY, and your project of equalizing Croatian with un-existing "Serbo-Croatian" is DOOMED, and we will fight for this, I promise you. Once again - Serbian and Croatian are different languages, just as Slovak and Czech, and false data on wikipedia will result in making them accurate! — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
AurgelmirCro (
talk •
contribs)
08:51, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
Easy slice! Taiko - there are countless linguists, both Croatian, but also Serbian (!), who dislike your idea - you think English ones are better linguists than ours??? So, they are from England and they are so smarta that we can't be such??? Try again, thank you very much. I don't understand Serbian, therefore there IS NO "SERBO-CROATIAN"...historic lie. And about blocking, kwami, try to block entire country of 4 million people. They will all be erasing your false statements. I am not important, but we are together - all.
And you will get ENDLESS flow of getting things to the right way. Once again - "serbo-croatian" is false, artificial language, and Croatian is real language in southern Slavic languages. This mission is fanatical. And not just mine...
He's likely right about the "ENDLESS flow". Might be a good idea to "alert the
authorities" and place the article on probation,
Kosovo-style, should this get out of hand. --
Director (
talk)
10:09, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
I'm sorry I must reiterate my previous contention but "Croatian will become an official EU language with the accession of Croatia" cannot and should not stand because of the plain crystal ball criterion. We simply don't know if Croatian will become anything in the near or distant future as simple as we don't know that "It will be the end of the world as we know it with coming of <insert_arbitrary_future_date_here_e.g._ 21st_Dec._this_year>". --biblbroks (talk) 21:51, 30 November 2012 (UTC)