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@ Kautilya3: This article has practically nothing in it beyond some blurb about caste being bad. Does that mean Hinduism was seen as some perfect religion by all? No. But if you see no criticisms of Hindu practices as belonging in the "criticism of Hinduism" article then delete the article overall if nothing fits in it.
This article has absolutely nothing about Ambedkar and it is well-known he was a fierce critic of Hinduism whatever the RSS may say. And not just for caste. Annihilation of Caste for instance, or Riddles in Hinduism. Yet there is no mention at all of criticism of Hinduism by him or his followers at all. Why? He definitively linked caste with Hinduism and said he would leave the religion. This seems to fit the bill for the article. His philosophy is highly-influential in contemporary scholarship and social life today. I'm not asking to make an edit but for someone to do a deep dive into scholarly analysis of his work and look at his criticisms and put some in there.
Periyar too. He was also a fierce critic of how Brahminical scriptures treated lower castes and women. It is common knowlege he criticised Hinduism. Nothing about him either.
I have a feeling some editors see the addition of any criticism of Hinduism as adding inaccurate colonial scholarship, but the criticism is there from Indian sources as well. It's not like there hasn't been any criticism of Hinduism before: there were many Sramana sects that criticised Hinduism well-before Muslim rule. Criticism was there in Medieval period from people like Ravidas and Basavanna. If you are afraid of this page being brigaded by people with agendas edit-warring then place protections. But just because some may call us "anti-Hindu" doesn't mean we shouldn't actively try to document criticisms of Hinduism in this page. C1MM ( talk) 07:25, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Some of the earliest criticism of Brahminical texts, including the Vedas and especially the Dharmashastras, comes from the Sramana (or renunciate) traditions, including Buddhism and Jainism. Sramana scholars viewed Brahminical philosophy as "heretical." In particular Sramanas denied the sruti (divine) nature of the Vedas and opposed sacrificial rituals which were at the heart of Brahminical philosophy at the time.
why does this line exist its such a wrong line
Patrick Olivelle, a professor of Indology and known for his translations of major ancient Sanskrit works, states in his 1993 study that contrary to some representations, the original Śramaṇa tradition was a part of the Vedic one.
ISBN 978-0195344783 He writes,
Sramana in that context obviously means a person who is in the habit of performing srama. Far from separating these seers from the vedic ritual tradition, therefore, śramaṇa places them right at the center of that tradition. Those who see them [Sramana seers] as non-Brahmanical, anti-Brahmanical, or even non-Aryan precursors of later sectarian ascetics are drawing conclusions that far outstrip the available evidence.
— Patrick Olivelle, The Ashrama System — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bhima Palavīṉamāṉa ( talk • contribs) 12 August 2021 (UTC)
@ TrangaBellam: this edit is unjustifiable. If you think books written by Kancha Ilaiah are not WP:RS, I'd like to hear that argument first before you start unilaterally deleting his work. Moreover, even if it was not RS, there is no justification for removing all other sources in all these sections, such as the BBC source, and texts about the caste system that I didn't even write, but were already in this article. I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish. Could you please explain yourself? Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 05:11, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
Nederlandse Leeuw, please explain your edits.
How is the section on Hindutva relevant? There's a peculiar section on Hierarchism, sourced to Kancha Ilaiah - what are his scholarly credentials and how is so much content DUE? TrangaBellam ( talk) 05:13, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
Would it be DUE if I can cite other RS who support his view?- No.
when reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence, describe both points of view and work for balance.It's the opposite of what you've described: you should include other RS that rebuts Ilaiah's commentaries. WikiLinuz🍁( talk) 06:39, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
I agree that Kancha Ilaiah is a legitimate critic of Hinduism. But he has no credentials in history at all, and most of his historical claims are bogus. It is hard to filter the valid material from his writings. For example, the dominant castes in South India are all Shudra castes, not Brahmins. Brahmin ascendance in South India is a modern phenomenon, no older than the British Raj. Even then, it was quickly countered by powerhul "non-Brahmin movements" within a few decades and the Shudra castes regained their old prominence. None of this has anything to do with Hindusim by the way. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 17:32, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
I think our article is missing crucial criticisms from Buddhism. For instance, from the Buddha; our article on Buddha summarizes various points at Gautama Buddha#Critique of Brahmanism. We could create a new section titled "Criticism from Buddhism" and insert those in there. Would like to know the opinions of other editors. (@ TrangaBellam, Joshua Jonathan, and Kautilya3:) WikiLinuz { talk} 🍁 03:54, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
I would like to suggest the inclusion of a "Criticism from Other Religions" section in this article. Acknowledging potential bias, it is important to note that the reader would be aware of this inherent bias, as the section would focus specifically on opinions from different religious perspectives.
I recall that another user previously proposed adding a section on criticism from Buddhism. For reference, the " Criticism of Christianity" article contains a section dedicated to critiques from various religions. Even if specific religions are not addressed, it would be beneficial to include criticisms from different schools of thought, such as views from Abrahamic religions. This addition would be relatively easy to source, given the historical interactions between Christians, Muslims, and Hindus.
I believe this would enhance the article's comprehensiveness and provide a more balanced view. I am interested in hearing what others think about this proposal, as this article currently seems somewhat sparse compared to other articles on the criticism of different religions. Sadlyiamhuman ( talk) 19:40, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Criticism of Hinduism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 30 days |
This article was nominated for
deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:
|
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
@ Kautilya3: This article has practically nothing in it beyond some blurb about caste being bad. Does that mean Hinduism was seen as some perfect religion by all? No. But if you see no criticisms of Hindu practices as belonging in the "criticism of Hinduism" article then delete the article overall if nothing fits in it.
This article has absolutely nothing about Ambedkar and it is well-known he was a fierce critic of Hinduism whatever the RSS may say. And not just for caste. Annihilation of Caste for instance, or Riddles in Hinduism. Yet there is no mention at all of criticism of Hinduism by him or his followers at all. Why? He definitively linked caste with Hinduism and said he would leave the religion. This seems to fit the bill for the article. His philosophy is highly-influential in contemporary scholarship and social life today. I'm not asking to make an edit but for someone to do a deep dive into scholarly analysis of his work and look at his criticisms and put some in there.
Periyar too. He was also a fierce critic of how Brahminical scriptures treated lower castes and women. It is common knowlege he criticised Hinduism. Nothing about him either.
I have a feeling some editors see the addition of any criticism of Hinduism as adding inaccurate colonial scholarship, but the criticism is there from Indian sources as well. It's not like there hasn't been any criticism of Hinduism before: there were many Sramana sects that criticised Hinduism well-before Muslim rule. Criticism was there in Medieval period from people like Ravidas and Basavanna. If you are afraid of this page being brigaded by people with agendas edit-warring then place protections. But just because some may call us "anti-Hindu" doesn't mean we shouldn't actively try to document criticisms of Hinduism in this page. C1MM ( talk) 07:25, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Some of the earliest criticism of Brahminical texts, including the Vedas and especially the Dharmashastras, comes from the Sramana (or renunciate) traditions, including Buddhism and Jainism. Sramana scholars viewed Brahminical philosophy as "heretical." In particular Sramanas denied the sruti (divine) nature of the Vedas and opposed sacrificial rituals which were at the heart of Brahminical philosophy at the time.
why does this line exist its such a wrong line
Patrick Olivelle, a professor of Indology and known for his translations of major ancient Sanskrit works, states in his 1993 study that contrary to some representations, the original Śramaṇa tradition was a part of the Vedic one.
ISBN 978-0195344783 He writes,
Sramana in that context obviously means a person who is in the habit of performing srama. Far from separating these seers from the vedic ritual tradition, therefore, śramaṇa places them right at the center of that tradition. Those who see them [Sramana seers] as non-Brahmanical, anti-Brahmanical, or even non-Aryan precursors of later sectarian ascetics are drawing conclusions that far outstrip the available evidence.
— Patrick Olivelle, The Ashrama System — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bhima Palavīṉamāṉa ( talk • contribs) 12 August 2021 (UTC)
@ TrangaBellam: this edit is unjustifiable. If you think books written by Kancha Ilaiah are not WP:RS, I'd like to hear that argument first before you start unilaterally deleting his work. Moreover, even if it was not RS, there is no justification for removing all other sources in all these sections, such as the BBC source, and texts about the caste system that I didn't even write, but were already in this article. I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish. Could you please explain yourself? Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 05:11, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
Nederlandse Leeuw, please explain your edits.
How is the section on Hindutva relevant? There's a peculiar section on Hierarchism, sourced to Kancha Ilaiah - what are his scholarly credentials and how is so much content DUE? TrangaBellam ( talk) 05:13, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
Would it be DUE if I can cite other RS who support his view?- No.
when reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence, describe both points of view and work for balance.It's the opposite of what you've described: you should include other RS that rebuts Ilaiah's commentaries. WikiLinuz🍁( talk) 06:39, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
I agree that Kancha Ilaiah is a legitimate critic of Hinduism. But he has no credentials in history at all, and most of his historical claims are bogus. It is hard to filter the valid material from his writings. For example, the dominant castes in South India are all Shudra castes, not Brahmins. Brahmin ascendance in South India is a modern phenomenon, no older than the British Raj. Even then, it was quickly countered by powerhul "non-Brahmin movements" within a few decades and the Shudra castes regained their old prominence. None of this has anything to do with Hindusim by the way. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 17:32, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
I think our article is missing crucial criticisms from Buddhism. For instance, from the Buddha; our article on Buddha summarizes various points at Gautama Buddha#Critique of Brahmanism. We could create a new section titled "Criticism from Buddhism" and insert those in there. Would like to know the opinions of other editors. (@ TrangaBellam, Joshua Jonathan, and Kautilya3:) WikiLinuz { talk} 🍁 03:54, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
I would like to suggest the inclusion of a "Criticism from Other Religions" section in this article. Acknowledging potential bias, it is important to note that the reader would be aware of this inherent bias, as the section would focus specifically on opinions from different religious perspectives.
I recall that another user previously proposed adding a section on criticism from Buddhism. For reference, the " Criticism of Christianity" article contains a section dedicated to critiques from various religions. Even if specific religions are not addressed, it would be beneficial to include criticisms from different schools of thought, such as views from Abrahamic religions. This addition would be relatively easy to source, given the historical interactions between Christians, Muslims, and Hindus.
I believe this would enhance the article's comprehensiveness and provide a more balanced view. I am interested in hearing what others think about this proposal, as this article currently seems somewhat sparse compared to other articles on the criticism of different religions. Sadlyiamhuman ( talk) 19:40, 13 June 2024 (UTC)