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vocabulary in Busbecq's letter:
[305] 19 Broe. Panis. 20 Plut. Sanguis. 21 Stul. Sedes. 22 Hus. Domus. 23 Wingart. Vitis. 24 Reghen. Pluvia. 25 Bruder. Frater. 26 Schvveſter. Soror. 27 Alt. Senex. 28 Wintch. Ventus. 29 Siluir. Argentum. 30 Goltz. Aurum.
[306]
1 Kor. Triticum. 2 Salt. Sal. 3 Fiſct. Piſcis. 4 Hoef. Caput. 5 Thurn. Porta. 6 Stein. Stella. 7 Sune. Sol. 8 Mine. Luna. 9 Tag. Dies. 10 Oeghene. Oculi. 11 Bars. Barba. 12 Handa. Manus. 13 Boga. Arcus. 14 Miera. Formica. 15 Rinck. ſiue. 16 Ringo. Annulus. 17 Brunna. Fons. 18 Waghen. Currus. 19 Apel. Pomum. 20 Schietê. Mittere ſagittâ. 21 Schlipen. Dormire. 22 Kommen. Venire. 23 Singhen. Canere. 24 Lachen. Ridere. 25 Eriten. Flere. 26 Geen. Ire. 27 Breen. Aſſare. 28 Schvvalth. Mors. 29 Knauen tag erat illi Bonus dies: Knauen 30 bonum dicebat, et pleraque alia cum no/ſtra
[307] 1 Kor. Triticum. 2 Salt. Sal. 3 Fiſct. Piſcis. 4 Hoef. Caput. 5 Thurn. Porta. 6 Stein. Stella. 7 Sune. Sol. 8 Mine. Luna. 9 Tag. Dies. 10 Oeghene. Oculi. 11 Bars. Barba. 12 Handa. Manus. 13 Boga. Arcus. 14 Miera. Formica. 15 Rinck. ſiue. 16 Ringo. Annulus. 17 Brunna. Fons. 18 Waghen. Currus. 19 Apel. Pomum. 20 Schietê. Mittere ſagittâ. 21 Schlipen. Dormire. 22 Kommen. Venire. 23 Singhen. Canere. 24 Lachen. Ridere. 25 Eriten. Flere. 26 Geen. Ire. 27 Breen. Aſſare. 28 Schvvalth. Mors. 29 Knauen tag erat illi Bonus dies: Knauen 30 bonum dicebat, et pleraque alia cum no/ſtra
[308] 1 Iuſſus ita numerabat. Ita, tua, tria, 2 fyder, fyuf, ſeis, ſeuene, prorſus, ut nos 3 Flandri. Nam vos Brabanti, qui vos Ger/manice 4 loqui factis, hic magnifice vos ef/ferre, 5 et nos ſoletis habere deriſui, ac ſi 6 iſtam vocem pronunciemus rancidius, quam 7 vos Seuenffertis. Proſequebatur deinde, 8 Athenyne, thiine, thiinita, thunetua, thu/netria, 9 etc. Viginti dicebat ſtega, triginta 10 treithyen, quadraginta furdeithien, centum 11 ſada, hazer mille. Quin etiam cantilenam 12 eius linguæ recitabat, cuius initium erat 13 hujuſmodi: 14 Wara Wara ingdolou: 15 Scu te gira Galizu. 16 Hœmiſclep dorbiza ea.
does that make it a Satem language? ;) dab (ᛏ) 17:12, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
more interestingly, is there a translation to the song fragment?
Wara Wara ingdolou: Scu te gira Galizu. Hoemisclep dorbiza ea.
dab (ᛏ) 17:13, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I have heard the storry from a hungarian count that some of the gothic may have come to middle europe with them and where settelt together with jews ( chasars ?) on the eastern border of hungary, today the middle part of Lower Austria and Styria. It would explain why the bavarian colonialisation in this area was going so smoothly without wars. The Austrian would than be a bavarian gothic mixture and the background of jiddisch ,witch i as Austrian can understand very easely, would rather be gothic and not german, as the Chasar inhabited the former gothic areas. It would explain too, why their is no genetical evidenz of the chasars in the jewish genes.
Thinking of this a prooved my own Austrian dialect to the gothic words and i must say that 60 % is very close some words only exist in Austrian. So ist the Austrian word for speaking angrily "meutern" witch is close to the gothic word of speaking. I am not a linguist, but I dont know any german dialect witch uses this word like this. The concept of the articels is close to the Austrian dialect witch use "te" (e like ending) for women and plural and "tea" (a like bar )for man. All other wordforms can at least exist in forms of the Austrian dialect.
J.
The East Gothic/Crimean Gothic language may been extinct for two centuries, until recent times has ethnic anthropology accepted the idea of East Goths survived well into the 20th century. The question of how the Estgotes came to Eastern Europe and thrived with their language, a relic of the once-existent East Gothic tribes of the 1000's AD, would remain unknown and theorized until the answer is discovered.
There was speculation of the "lost Swedes" of western Ukraine (as well in Estonia, Belarus, Russia and the Crimea under Greek rule) are direct descendants of the Vikings or Scandinavians whom managed to retain a separate ethnocultural identity, but in small villages and isolated from the Slavic linguistic majority until the late 1800's. In Gotland, there are Lutheran church bells that actually came from the Ukraine in 1913 or 1914 serves as a reminder of a people whom returned to their ancestral homeland.
I've read the National Geographic August 1973 article Gotland, Sweden's treasure island had a brief mention of a few thousand Gotlander Swedes arrived to their "homeland" from the former USSR in the 1920's. In the 1921 Soviet census, about 900 Swedish-Russians (or Ukrainians) lived in one village, Gammalsvenskbi (Gamelsvinsk) became abandoned in World Wars I and II, when the Soviets expelled the "German" inhabitants who happened to be Swedish-speaking of East Gothic descent.
Gammalsvenskbi was settled in 1780 by a small wave of "Estegote" settlers from Estonia and northwest Russia. Due to ethnic conflict in the 19th and early 20th century, the village's residents disliked introducing themselves to their Russian and Ukrainian neighbors, whom would call them "bloody Germans". But when they say "I'm an Estgote Swede", they get insults on how the great Russians defeated King Charles VIII in the battle of Poltava and threatened the "barbarian Goths" to leave the country.
If any remnants of Estgotes, Swedish-Russians and Crimea Goths are around in the 21st century may get never known, but their language is well documented and preserved in writing for research in Crimean Gothic myths, stories and notes on their daily lives. The Soviet Union's policy of history denial and misinformation of ethnic and national minorities, and the "Russification" of Tsarist Russia followed by an equally intolerant "Sovietization" forced an doctrine of assimilation that killed many languages and ethnic identities across the large country, the Crimean Goths were the policy's victims. + 63.3.14.1 18:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
crimean gothic as busbecq recorded, clearly much more similar to continental germanic dialects than swedish. so i don't think they are swedes. i am crimean tatar though never lived in crimea. but my family told about many different ethnicities in crimea, including volga germans though not goths or any unidentified group which could be them. most likely, crimean goths were assimilated into other ethnicities before 19th. century. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.238.204.165 ( talk) 04:20, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Should we really mention an alphabet? 1st, it seems uncertain that Goths would write in runes at that time, 2nd, there's no attested (native) Crimean Gothic writing, anyway, so the information seems to be pure speculation. By checking out relevant Wikipedia articles, it seems Arabic writing was common in the area at the time, so it doesn't seem too improbable guessing that Crimean Gothic would occasionally be written in that script. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 07:02, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
busbecq also mentioned, the goth man he encountered wasn't very good at his native tongue and speaks greek better. a greek man who was with him knows gothic better. probably, crimean goths were bilingual and lived in interaction with greek co-religionists. so they probably write with greek letters if they write at all in their native tongue. most likely they used greek as literary language. it is a probablity that they may eventually assimilated to crimean greeks or urums. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.238.204.165 ( talk) 04:09, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
I assess this article to the stub level. I think the article contains all necessary to be rised to the start level, except proper headings to make it easy to read. If you disagree, then edit the {{WikiProject Languages|class=start}} uppermost on this page to your liking. Said: Rursus ( ☻) 09:33, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
What's the source for "razn" being loaned from Crimean Tatar? Razn is indeed found in Wulfila's Gothic: [2] [3] 惑乱 Wakuran ( talk) 15:44, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
i know crimean tatar and i didn't heard a word like "razn". it is inompatible with kypchak phonetics and even if loaned from gothic, it would have transformed into another vocalization. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.238.204.165 ( talk) 04:13, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
In the second table, no Dutch or German cognates are listed for malthata, 'said'. Malthata looks remarkably similar to the first and third person singular preterite of the verb melden, "to announce", which appears as meldete in German and as meldde in Dutch. Are there any specific reasons why these forms are not listed? Iblardi ( talk) 02:07, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Concerning the statement that "there is the possibility that Busbecq's transcription was influenced by his own language" (which has gone unsourced thus far), it is probably more accurate to speak of Flemish (as a Dutch dialect) rather than Dutch in general. This is based on the results of a simple Google Book search (I know, an imperfect method):
The author notes that the current spellings, to be sure, are based on a printed edition, not on Busbecq's original handwriting, which is not extant.
To CodeCat: Why did you revert my translations? I made them clearer and more correct. I'm also a speaker of Swedish so I know a thing or two about my language. -- Shandris the azylean 14:49, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
This is a bit muddled, but it seems that the two different roots for "go, walk" aren't etymologically related (despite similarities in appearance); Gmc. *gangan (or similar) could be derived from PIE *ghengh- (step), while W. Gmc *gaian is derived from PIE *ghe- (release, let go). The Scandinavian form "gå" seems to have been borrowed from Middle Low German, and it's likely that "geen" would come from a West Germanic source, as well. 惑乱 Wakuran ( talk) 09:30, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
Quote: “There are two alternative solutions: that Crimean Gothic presents a separate branch of East Germanic, distinct from Ulfilas' Gothic; or that Crimean Gothic is descended from the dialect of West Germanic settlers who migrated to the Crimea in the early Middle Ages and whose language was subsequently influenced by Gothic.”
The Crimean Gothic verb form 'malthata' (said) is cognate to German 'meldete' as well as Netherlandish 'meldde' from the verb 'melden' meaning to tell or to report. This verb occurs in a more ancient form in a well known Salian Frankish fragment from the Lex Salica "Maltho thi afrio lito."; Salian Frankish is considered to be a kind of "Old Dutch". Amand Keultjes ( talk) 01:12, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
Sorry but I am slightly annoyed because of this salon science opinion. The etymologiebank.nl article clearly show that the position of the d/th is arbitrary; the d/th can even completely disappear. I have taken the effort to look more closely to the associated Balto-Slavic cognate words. I have found an etymological Lithuanian article on the mentioned Lithuanian word maldýti, which shows that the Balto-Slavic language group the position of the 'd' before or after the 'l' can change and that the 'd' can disappear as well. Common sense actually already does not leave any doubt beforehand, as basically 'meld' en 'malth' are as cognate as possibly can be and are almost impossible candidates for false cognates since their meanings are almost identical as well.
PS I am not going to start up an editing war: there are too many wrong and missed etymologies anyhow! (For instance Holland<Holtland, where it is next to Zeeland: Halland and Seeland are neighbouring regions around Copenhagen.) Amand Keultjes ( talk) 23:13, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
I think we shouldn't be directly identifying Crimean Gothic as an East Germanic language in the lede as it is contested by numerous authors as explained in Classification section. -- Gogolplex ( talk) 22:32, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
The more recently discovered Gothic graffiti from Crimea do not appear to be the same language as "Crimean Gothic," but rather new examples of Bible Gothic. Shouldn't they be mentioned over there rather than here? Pfold, do you have an opinion?-- Ermenrich ( talk) 16:57, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
The graffiti, datable to between about 850 and the end of the 10th century, exhibit words in Gothic known from Wulfila’s Bible translation, the script used being an archaic variant of Wulfila’s alphabet and the only specimen of this alphabet attested outside Pannonia and Italy.[9]. Via de Gruyter online, I did find:
In jüngerer Zeit sind Zeugnisse des (Krim-)got. aufgetaucht, die in die Zeit zwischen 850 und 1000 datiert werden (Korobov/Vinogradov 2016; Vinogradov/Korobov 2015; Vinogradov/Korobov 2018). Fünf got. Graffiti, die in einer frühbyzantinischen Kathedrale in Mangup-Kale auf zwei Spolien geritzt wurden, weisen Wörter auf, die auch aus Wulfilas Bibelübersetzung bekannt sind. Diese Inschriften belegen ein Überleben der got. Sprache auf der Bergkrim bis ins 9. oder 10. Jh. in Koexistenz mit dem Griech. Da keine wesentlichen Unterschiede zwischen der Sprache der Mangup-Graffiti und der got. Bibel erkennbar sind, ist Kontinuität anzunehmen, zumindest im Hinblick auf dieses in religiösen Kontexten verwendetes Idiom. Die mögliche Vokalkürzung von got. wei > wi in den Inschriften I.2 und I.4 (wina[gards] 'Weingarten' und wi[hins]) 'Priester', und die Vereinfachung des Konsonantenclusters -rht - > -rt- in der Genitivform frawaurtis (got. frawaúrhts 'sündig') können nicht zweifelsfrei als Veränderungen im Lautstand der Sprache interpretiert werden.
In what amounts to no less than sensational new evidence, significant light has now been shed on these two important questions. In a recently published paper (2016) the Russian scholars Maksim Korobov and Andrei Vinogradov present five newly dis-covered Gothic graffiti scratched on two reused fragments from an early Byzantine cornice from the basilica of the Crimean rock town-stronghold of Mangup (see map in Kokowski 2013, p. 76), graffiti which for archaeological and other reasons may safely be dated to between c. 850 AD and the beginning of the 10th century. Nearly all the words evidenced by the five graffiti are familiar to us from what is extant of Wulfila’s Bible translation. The longest of the Mangup texts contains a quotation from Psalms 77:13–14 (76:14–15 in the Hebrew Bible), an Old Testament passage not recorded else-where in Biblical Gothic. As for the remaining graffiti, two represent Byzantine invo-cations, one is perhaps a commemoration with a formula of modesty, and one has just barely survived. The script used is an archaic variant of Wulfila’s alphabet, and this is the first and only attestation of this alphabet outside Pannonia and Italy (where Wulfila’s script barely survived the middle of the 6th century). The five graffiti suggest that in the second half of the 9th century Gothic served not just as a spoken medium in the Crimea but as a written one as well (in diglossia with Greek). The evidence available does not show any marked differences between the idiom of the five Mangup texts and Wulfila’s Biblical Gothic.(The paper later uses the inscriptions to argue for the East Germanic affiliation of Crimean Gothic).
Ermenrich you are surely going to be better informed than me but it is surprising that "malthata" is not being associated with this extremely similar looking word *melþōdā which is also close in meaning [ [12]. I can see how that connecting it to *maþlijaną is good for the Gothic connection argument but I can't see who made that proposal or whether it was ever doubted. If you have a source handy it might be good to insert it. Interesting. Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 15:01, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
If we are correct in interpreting both s and schas representations of CG /s/, then several words may show that CG retained the PGmc nominative singular masculine ending -z as CG /s/. Consider the following examples: CG VVintch 'wind' (if a misprint for *VVintsch, cf. BG winds), CG Fers 'man' (cf. BG faírƕus), CG Rintsch'mountain', CH Borrotsch 'desire'.also:
Among adjectives, CG Ieltsch 'healthy' may employ the transcription sch to reflect a strong nominative singular masculine ending CG /s/, and is thus equivalent to BG háils.. There’s also other evidence for lacking rhoticism in some words.— Ermenrich ( talk) 19:09, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
Ermenrich I see the word "Trümmersprache" mentioned a fair bit in the secondary literature. Do we cover that aspect? I am possibly influenced by the fact that I find some of the neater explanations a bit too neat (and relying more upon strong assumptions about the transmitter's mistakes than linguistics as such). I for one find the idea of de Busbecq using "sch" for "s" really very strange. I can't imagine any Flemish person doing that. It would be a bit like an English diplomat using gh for an f sound. (They know it is an exceptional spelling because they learn it that way. It may only happen in certain positions.) And if Greek was one of the key languages being used I also can't imagine that anyone would use "th" to mean something other than the th sound in English and Greek, and tz instead, which is also used in Greek transcription, but not for the th sound. Of course I am not a linguist, but none of this is linguistics. Is there really no criticism of these assumptions? I do appreciate that you added that remark about Erasmus already. Very interesting. I am not making any concrete proposals here I know, just wondering.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 15:40, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
Consider the following examples: CG Goltz 'gold' (cf. BG gulþ), CG Statz 'land' (cf. BG dat. sg. staþa, OS stað, OHG stad, stado 'shore'), and CG Tzo 'thou' (cf. BG þu, OE þu, ON þú). [...] This digraph only occurs in places where one expects PGmc *þ, though *þ also appears as t, th, and d. It could of course be a misprint, but the correspondences with *þ are not chance, so that this is not likely. As mentioned above, Busbecq may have misunderstood [þ] as [ts] and thus written tz. On the other hand, he may have been attempting to transcribe the voiced fricative [ð]. But since the informant would have distinguished [ð] and [þ], he may have pronounced [ð] in CG Tzo 'thou', but it is less likely in Goltz and Statz. In the end, Busbecq likely heard CG [þ] correctly, but was confounded in how to transcribe it. Perhaps tz was his solution to this dilemma.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 17:50, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
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vocabulary in Busbecq's letter:
[305] 19 Broe. Panis. 20 Plut. Sanguis. 21 Stul. Sedes. 22 Hus. Domus. 23 Wingart. Vitis. 24 Reghen. Pluvia. 25 Bruder. Frater. 26 Schvveſter. Soror. 27 Alt. Senex. 28 Wintch. Ventus. 29 Siluir. Argentum. 30 Goltz. Aurum.
[306]
1 Kor. Triticum. 2 Salt. Sal. 3 Fiſct. Piſcis. 4 Hoef. Caput. 5 Thurn. Porta. 6 Stein. Stella. 7 Sune. Sol. 8 Mine. Luna. 9 Tag. Dies. 10 Oeghene. Oculi. 11 Bars. Barba. 12 Handa. Manus. 13 Boga. Arcus. 14 Miera. Formica. 15 Rinck. ſiue. 16 Ringo. Annulus. 17 Brunna. Fons. 18 Waghen. Currus. 19 Apel. Pomum. 20 Schietê. Mittere ſagittâ. 21 Schlipen. Dormire. 22 Kommen. Venire. 23 Singhen. Canere. 24 Lachen. Ridere. 25 Eriten. Flere. 26 Geen. Ire. 27 Breen. Aſſare. 28 Schvvalth. Mors. 29 Knauen tag erat illi Bonus dies: Knauen 30 bonum dicebat, et pleraque alia cum no/ſtra
[307] 1 Kor. Triticum. 2 Salt. Sal. 3 Fiſct. Piſcis. 4 Hoef. Caput. 5 Thurn. Porta. 6 Stein. Stella. 7 Sune. Sol. 8 Mine. Luna. 9 Tag. Dies. 10 Oeghene. Oculi. 11 Bars. Barba. 12 Handa. Manus. 13 Boga. Arcus. 14 Miera. Formica. 15 Rinck. ſiue. 16 Ringo. Annulus. 17 Brunna. Fons. 18 Waghen. Currus. 19 Apel. Pomum. 20 Schietê. Mittere ſagittâ. 21 Schlipen. Dormire. 22 Kommen. Venire. 23 Singhen. Canere. 24 Lachen. Ridere. 25 Eriten. Flere. 26 Geen. Ire. 27 Breen. Aſſare. 28 Schvvalth. Mors. 29 Knauen tag erat illi Bonus dies: Knauen 30 bonum dicebat, et pleraque alia cum no/ſtra
[308] 1 Iuſſus ita numerabat. Ita, tua, tria, 2 fyder, fyuf, ſeis, ſeuene, prorſus, ut nos 3 Flandri. Nam vos Brabanti, qui vos Ger/manice 4 loqui factis, hic magnifice vos ef/ferre, 5 et nos ſoletis habere deriſui, ac ſi 6 iſtam vocem pronunciemus rancidius, quam 7 vos Seuenffertis. Proſequebatur deinde, 8 Athenyne, thiine, thiinita, thunetua, thu/netria, 9 etc. Viginti dicebat ſtega, triginta 10 treithyen, quadraginta furdeithien, centum 11 ſada, hazer mille. Quin etiam cantilenam 12 eius linguæ recitabat, cuius initium erat 13 hujuſmodi: 14 Wara Wara ingdolou: 15 Scu te gira Galizu. 16 Hœmiſclep dorbiza ea.
does that make it a Satem language? ;) dab (ᛏ) 17:12, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
more interestingly, is there a translation to the song fragment?
Wara Wara ingdolou: Scu te gira Galizu. Hoemisclep dorbiza ea.
dab (ᛏ) 17:13, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I have heard the storry from a hungarian count that some of the gothic may have come to middle europe with them and where settelt together with jews ( chasars ?) on the eastern border of hungary, today the middle part of Lower Austria and Styria. It would explain why the bavarian colonialisation in this area was going so smoothly without wars. The Austrian would than be a bavarian gothic mixture and the background of jiddisch ,witch i as Austrian can understand very easely, would rather be gothic and not german, as the Chasar inhabited the former gothic areas. It would explain too, why their is no genetical evidenz of the chasars in the jewish genes.
Thinking of this a prooved my own Austrian dialect to the gothic words and i must say that 60 % is very close some words only exist in Austrian. So ist the Austrian word for speaking angrily "meutern" witch is close to the gothic word of speaking. I am not a linguist, but I dont know any german dialect witch uses this word like this. The concept of the articels is close to the Austrian dialect witch use "te" (e like ending) for women and plural and "tea" (a like bar )for man. All other wordforms can at least exist in forms of the Austrian dialect.
J.
The East Gothic/Crimean Gothic language may been extinct for two centuries, until recent times has ethnic anthropology accepted the idea of East Goths survived well into the 20th century. The question of how the Estgotes came to Eastern Europe and thrived with their language, a relic of the once-existent East Gothic tribes of the 1000's AD, would remain unknown and theorized until the answer is discovered.
There was speculation of the "lost Swedes" of western Ukraine (as well in Estonia, Belarus, Russia and the Crimea under Greek rule) are direct descendants of the Vikings or Scandinavians whom managed to retain a separate ethnocultural identity, but in small villages and isolated from the Slavic linguistic majority until the late 1800's. In Gotland, there are Lutheran church bells that actually came from the Ukraine in 1913 or 1914 serves as a reminder of a people whom returned to their ancestral homeland.
I've read the National Geographic August 1973 article Gotland, Sweden's treasure island had a brief mention of a few thousand Gotlander Swedes arrived to their "homeland" from the former USSR in the 1920's. In the 1921 Soviet census, about 900 Swedish-Russians (or Ukrainians) lived in one village, Gammalsvenskbi (Gamelsvinsk) became abandoned in World Wars I and II, when the Soviets expelled the "German" inhabitants who happened to be Swedish-speaking of East Gothic descent.
Gammalsvenskbi was settled in 1780 by a small wave of "Estegote" settlers from Estonia and northwest Russia. Due to ethnic conflict in the 19th and early 20th century, the village's residents disliked introducing themselves to their Russian and Ukrainian neighbors, whom would call them "bloody Germans". But when they say "I'm an Estgote Swede", they get insults on how the great Russians defeated King Charles VIII in the battle of Poltava and threatened the "barbarian Goths" to leave the country.
If any remnants of Estgotes, Swedish-Russians and Crimea Goths are around in the 21st century may get never known, but their language is well documented and preserved in writing for research in Crimean Gothic myths, stories and notes on their daily lives. The Soviet Union's policy of history denial and misinformation of ethnic and national minorities, and the "Russification" of Tsarist Russia followed by an equally intolerant "Sovietization" forced an doctrine of assimilation that killed many languages and ethnic identities across the large country, the Crimean Goths were the policy's victims. + 63.3.14.1 18:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
crimean gothic as busbecq recorded, clearly much more similar to continental germanic dialects than swedish. so i don't think they are swedes. i am crimean tatar though never lived in crimea. but my family told about many different ethnicities in crimea, including volga germans though not goths or any unidentified group which could be them. most likely, crimean goths were assimilated into other ethnicities before 19th. century. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.238.204.165 ( talk) 04:20, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Should we really mention an alphabet? 1st, it seems uncertain that Goths would write in runes at that time, 2nd, there's no attested (native) Crimean Gothic writing, anyway, so the information seems to be pure speculation. By checking out relevant Wikipedia articles, it seems Arabic writing was common in the area at the time, so it doesn't seem too improbable guessing that Crimean Gothic would occasionally be written in that script. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 07:02, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
busbecq also mentioned, the goth man he encountered wasn't very good at his native tongue and speaks greek better. a greek man who was with him knows gothic better. probably, crimean goths were bilingual and lived in interaction with greek co-religionists. so they probably write with greek letters if they write at all in their native tongue. most likely they used greek as literary language. it is a probablity that they may eventually assimilated to crimean greeks or urums. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.238.204.165 ( talk) 04:09, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
I assess this article to the stub level. I think the article contains all necessary to be rised to the start level, except proper headings to make it easy to read. If you disagree, then edit the {{WikiProject Languages|class=start}} uppermost on this page to your liking. Said: Rursus ( ☻) 09:33, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
What's the source for "razn" being loaned from Crimean Tatar? Razn is indeed found in Wulfila's Gothic: [2] [3] 惑乱 Wakuran ( talk) 15:44, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
i know crimean tatar and i didn't heard a word like "razn". it is inompatible with kypchak phonetics and even if loaned from gothic, it would have transformed into another vocalization. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.238.204.165 ( talk) 04:13, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
In the second table, no Dutch or German cognates are listed for malthata, 'said'. Malthata looks remarkably similar to the first and third person singular preterite of the verb melden, "to announce", which appears as meldete in German and as meldde in Dutch. Are there any specific reasons why these forms are not listed? Iblardi ( talk) 02:07, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Concerning the statement that "there is the possibility that Busbecq's transcription was influenced by his own language" (which has gone unsourced thus far), it is probably more accurate to speak of Flemish (as a Dutch dialect) rather than Dutch in general. This is based on the results of a simple Google Book search (I know, an imperfect method):
The author notes that the current spellings, to be sure, are based on a printed edition, not on Busbecq's original handwriting, which is not extant.
To CodeCat: Why did you revert my translations? I made them clearer and more correct. I'm also a speaker of Swedish so I know a thing or two about my language. -- Shandris the azylean 14:49, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
This is a bit muddled, but it seems that the two different roots for "go, walk" aren't etymologically related (despite similarities in appearance); Gmc. *gangan (or similar) could be derived from PIE *ghengh- (step), while W. Gmc *gaian is derived from PIE *ghe- (release, let go). The Scandinavian form "gå" seems to have been borrowed from Middle Low German, and it's likely that "geen" would come from a West Germanic source, as well. 惑乱 Wakuran ( talk) 09:30, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
Quote: “There are two alternative solutions: that Crimean Gothic presents a separate branch of East Germanic, distinct from Ulfilas' Gothic; or that Crimean Gothic is descended from the dialect of West Germanic settlers who migrated to the Crimea in the early Middle Ages and whose language was subsequently influenced by Gothic.”
The Crimean Gothic verb form 'malthata' (said) is cognate to German 'meldete' as well as Netherlandish 'meldde' from the verb 'melden' meaning to tell or to report. This verb occurs in a more ancient form in a well known Salian Frankish fragment from the Lex Salica "Maltho thi afrio lito."; Salian Frankish is considered to be a kind of "Old Dutch". Amand Keultjes ( talk) 01:12, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
Sorry but I am slightly annoyed because of this salon science opinion. The etymologiebank.nl article clearly show that the position of the d/th is arbitrary; the d/th can even completely disappear. I have taken the effort to look more closely to the associated Balto-Slavic cognate words. I have found an etymological Lithuanian article on the mentioned Lithuanian word maldýti, which shows that the Balto-Slavic language group the position of the 'd' before or after the 'l' can change and that the 'd' can disappear as well. Common sense actually already does not leave any doubt beforehand, as basically 'meld' en 'malth' are as cognate as possibly can be and are almost impossible candidates for false cognates since their meanings are almost identical as well.
PS I am not going to start up an editing war: there are too many wrong and missed etymologies anyhow! (For instance Holland<Holtland, where it is next to Zeeland: Halland and Seeland are neighbouring regions around Copenhagen.) Amand Keultjes ( talk) 23:13, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
I think we shouldn't be directly identifying Crimean Gothic as an East Germanic language in the lede as it is contested by numerous authors as explained in Classification section. -- Gogolplex ( talk) 22:32, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
The more recently discovered Gothic graffiti from Crimea do not appear to be the same language as "Crimean Gothic," but rather new examples of Bible Gothic. Shouldn't they be mentioned over there rather than here? Pfold, do you have an opinion?-- Ermenrich ( talk) 16:57, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
The graffiti, datable to between about 850 and the end of the 10th century, exhibit words in Gothic known from Wulfila’s Bible translation, the script used being an archaic variant of Wulfila’s alphabet and the only specimen of this alphabet attested outside Pannonia and Italy.[9]. Via de Gruyter online, I did find:
In jüngerer Zeit sind Zeugnisse des (Krim-)got. aufgetaucht, die in die Zeit zwischen 850 und 1000 datiert werden (Korobov/Vinogradov 2016; Vinogradov/Korobov 2015; Vinogradov/Korobov 2018). Fünf got. Graffiti, die in einer frühbyzantinischen Kathedrale in Mangup-Kale auf zwei Spolien geritzt wurden, weisen Wörter auf, die auch aus Wulfilas Bibelübersetzung bekannt sind. Diese Inschriften belegen ein Überleben der got. Sprache auf der Bergkrim bis ins 9. oder 10. Jh. in Koexistenz mit dem Griech. Da keine wesentlichen Unterschiede zwischen der Sprache der Mangup-Graffiti und der got. Bibel erkennbar sind, ist Kontinuität anzunehmen, zumindest im Hinblick auf dieses in religiösen Kontexten verwendetes Idiom. Die mögliche Vokalkürzung von got. wei > wi in den Inschriften I.2 und I.4 (wina[gards] 'Weingarten' und wi[hins]) 'Priester', und die Vereinfachung des Konsonantenclusters -rht - > -rt- in der Genitivform frawaurtis (got. frawaúrhts 'sündig') können nicht zweifelsfrei als Veränderungen im Lautstand der Sprache interpretiert werden.
In what amounts to no less than sensational new evidence, significant light has now been shed on these two important questions. In a recently published paper (2016) the Russian scholars Maksim Korobov and Andrei Vinogradov present five newly dis-covered Gothic graffiti scratched on two reused fragments from an early Byzantine cornice from the basilica of the Crimean rock town-stronghold of Mangup (see map in Kokowski 2013, p. 76), graffiti which for archaeological and other reasons may safely be dated to between c. 850 AD and the beginning of the 10th century. Nearly all the words evidenced by the five graffiti are familiar to us from what is extant of Wulfila’s Bible translation. The longest of the Mangup texts contains a quotation from Psalms 77:13–14 (76:14–15 in the Hebrew Bible), an Old Testament passage not recorded else-where in Biblical Gothic. As for the remaining graffiti, two represent Byzantine invo-cations, one is perhaps a commemoration with a formula of modesty, and one has just barely survived. The script used is an archaic variant of Wulfila’s alphabet, and this is the first and only attestation of this alphabet outside Pannonia and Italy (where Wulfila’s script barely survived the middle of the 6th century). The five graffiti suggest that in the second half of the 9th century Gothic served not just as a spoken medium in the Crimea but as a written one as well (in diglossia with Greek). The evidence available does not show any marked differences between the idiom of the five Mangup texts and Wulfila’s Biblical Gothic.(The paper later uses the inscriptions to argue for the East Germanic affiliation of Crimean Gothic).
Ermenrich you are surely going to be better informed than me but it is surprising that "malthata" is not being associated with this extremely similar looking word *melþōdā which is also close in meaning [ [12]. I can see how that connecting it to *maþlijaną is good for the Gothic connection argument but I can't see who made that proposal or whether it was ever doubted. If you have a source handy it might be good to insert it. Interesting. Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 15:01, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
If we are correct in interpreting both s and schas representations of CG /s/, then several words may show that CG retained the PGmc nominative singular masculine ending -z as CG /s/. Consider the following examples: CG VVintch 'wind' (if a misprint for *VVintsch, cf. BG winds), CG Fers 'man' (cf. BG faírƕus), CG Rintsch'mountain', CH Borrotsch 'desire'.also:
Among adjectives, CG Ieltsch 'healthy' may employ the transcription sch to reflect a strong nominative singular masculine ending CG /s/, and is thus equivalent to BG háils.. There’s also other evidence for lacking rhoticism in some words.— Ermenrich ( talk) 19:09, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
Ermenrich I see the word "Trümmersprache" mentioned a fair bit in the secondary literature. Do we cover that aspect? I am possibly influenced by the fact that I find some of the neater explanations a bit too neat (and relying more upon strong assumptions about the transmitter's mistakes than linguistics as such). I for one find the idea of de Busbecq using "sch" for "s" really very strange. I can't imagine any Flemish person doing that. It would be a bit like an English diplomat using gh for an f sound. (They know it is an exceptional spelling because they learn it that way. It may only happen in certain positions.) And if Greek was one of the key languages being used I also can't imagine that anyone would use "th" to mean something other than the th sound in English and Greek, and tz instead, which is also used in Greek transcription, but not for the th sound. Of course I am not a linguist, but none of this is linguistics. Is there really no criticism of these assumptions? I do appreciate that you added that remark about Erasmus already. Very interesting. I am not making any concrete proposals here I know, just wondering.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 15:40, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
Consider the following examples: CG Goltz 'gold' (cf. BG gulþ), CG Statz 'land' (cf. BG dat. sg. staþa, OS stað, OHG stad, stado 'shore'), and CG Tzo 'thou' (cf. BG þu, OE þu, ON þú). [...] This digraph only occurs in places where one expects PGmc *þ, though *þ also appears as t, th, and d. It could of course be a misprint, but the correspondences with *þ are not chance, so that this is not likely. As mentioned above, Busbecq may have misunderstood [þ] as [ts] and thus written tz. On the other hand, he may have been attempting to transcribe the voiced fricative [ð]. But since the informant would have distinguished [ð] and [þ], he may have pronounced [ð] in CG Tzo 'thou', but it is less likely in Goltz and Statz. In the end, Busbecq likely heard CG [þ] correctly, but was confounded in how to transcribe it. Perhaps tz was his solution to this dilemma.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 17:50, 29 November 2023 (UTC)