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Bellatores keeps reverting the insertion of the WikiProject tagging without discussion in the talk page, and has been reverted by three different users. Clearly there is no consensus for the removal. One user, when restoring, included [1] as a reason. Other than that no one, including Bellatores, has done anyhting other than speak via edit summary. While I love its twitter-like qualities, which mean succinct messages, this clearly needs to stop and be discussed under BRD.
So, discuss. In the meantime, consensus clearly shows "keep" so do not change it again or we will think you are edit warring. We could change it after a process of discussion, but we should discuss it first instead of warring.--
Cerejota (
talk) 07:11, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Ok. I've now expanded the article, added some subheadings and listed a scholarly source, as well as one of the movement's most prominent members view on why the movement exists. The negative allegations have been grouped into one paragraph and to some extent rephrased in more neutral language. The paragraph on organization is rather stubbish, but offers a starting point for further editing. I've done a bit of research and expect to be able to write a couple of paragraphs on various affiliate organizations. For the convenience of other editors, take a look at this report and this internet resource. The question of whether counterjihad should be grouped with the project fascism as such remains unresolved, for my part. -- benjamil ( talk) 19:12, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
For the record, according to Baron Bodissey, The Breivik Portfolio, Part Four: The Dot-Connection, Gates of Vienna, 2011-08-29, the 2011 Norway attacks were an epic win for the Counterjihad movement, because of "the increased Gates of Vienna traffic, which was unprecedented. The number of new readers at Jihad Watch and Atlas Shrugs [...] must have been astronomical. [...] Mr. Breivik [...] showed himself to be brilliant, dedicated, focused, and single-minded at Utøya." Visite fortuitement prolongée ( talk) 21:37, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
For the record: A Brief History of the Transatlantic Counterjihad, Gates of Vienna, 2011. Visite fortuitement prolongée ( talk) 22:42, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
I haven't heard of "Counterjihad" before, and I find this article confusing. To begin with, keeping in mind the WP:BLP implications of the labeling going on here, can people here provide three reliable sources each for the claim that it is "Islamophobic" and "far-right"? We would need the source, and the quote that explicitly uses the term "Islamophobic" or "Far-right". Jayjg (talk) 20:01, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
I don't get this, criticizing a religion that teaches rape victims should be stoned to death while the rapist walks scot free is akin to being a Nazi? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.252.209.89 ( talk) 09:57, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Reading through this article, I came across this sentence:
Anders Behring Breivik, responsible for the 2011 Norway attacks, published a manifesto explaining his views which drew heavily on the work of counterjihad bloggers such as Fjordman. [1]
I read the source supporting this particular sentence, and its use appears to be WP:NOR, since it nowhere mentions "Counterjihad". Can anyone here explain why it is being used here? Have I missed a reference to Counterjihad in the source? Jayjg (talk) 20:12, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
The article correctly mentions Breivik's copious usages of Counterjihad literature. However, it is somewhat ambiguous when it says "his views ... drew heavily on." What views? His goals and ambitious for Norway? Or his view on violent conflict? The reason I bring this up is that there is and was a condemnation of his tactics (see ref 5, New York Times). Just as we used to distinguish between socialism and communism by the latter's dedication to violent overthrow, we should be careful not to imply that Breivik's revolutionary philosophy is shared by what may be a movement that is dedicated to democratic change. During the Cold War, calling all socialist "communists" was considered "red-baiting" and unfair. As far as I know, Breivik's terrorist attack and all violent revolutionary action is rejected by the leaders of the counterjihad. One can find most of them condemning violence as a path to social change. They seem to be the "socialist" evolutionary types while Breivik is the "communist" revolutionary counterpart.
I suggest we add a quote from ref 5 that balances this statement:
Jason from nyc ( talk) 13:01, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
There is no wiki page for "Edward S. May" nor do I see any reference that May is Barron Bodissey. Was the page or link removed? This needs to be fixed. Jason from nyc ( talk) 15:01, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
Visite fortuitement prolongée, I removed your edits because the references weren't talking about the Counter-jihad movement in general. There is no mention of "counter-jihad." There are specific articles on the individuals in question. I believe the material is worthy of inclusion ... elsewhere. To include it in this article would be WP:OR and WP:Synthesis. Jason from nyc ( talk) 02:38, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
Mumbo-jumbophobe wrote: The following sentence was deleted because it has no discernible meaning, thus it cannot be either true or false: "Firstly, the establishment of an allegedly continuous and coherent connection between the present-day conflict between the Christian West and Muslims, whereas analyses based on established historical science will dismiss any such claim as unfounded." Something seems to be missing. Moreover not a single one of the alleged "analyses based on established historical science" is cited. That sounds like ideologically inspired baloney. If she can't cite any sources, the passage should be deleted. Mumbo-jumbophobe ( talk) 18:44, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
The anti racism organization 'Hope not hate' has opened a section on the 'counter jihad' movement mapping out the prime movers and shakers. I expect this valuable information to be incorporated into this wikipedia article. located here — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.231.88.234 ( talk) 19:04, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
Clearly "Hope not Hate" is a partisan group with an opinion. I question the source. Jason from nyc ( talk) 11:37, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
About "Counterjihad have largely replaced earlier neo-nazism and the traditional far right thus making their ideas more respectable.", I would rather write "Counterjihad take place in a broard change in European far right, which is less antisemitic and more anti-Islam."
Two other sources:
Visite fortuitement prolongée ( talk) 20:26, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Hope not hate is a great source, but it doesn't cover every single node in the international "counterjihad" network . Anyhow, it is quite interesting to see the listed organizations' links to Israel and how many individuals involved in those organizations are jewish. Makes it very obvious for what purpose this anti Muslim hatred is being promoted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.165.201.86 ( talk) 06:08, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
Here is a source from real British nationalists explaining what "counterjihad" is all about http://www.bnp.org.uk/news/national/propaganda-web-guide-all-nationalists
I always knew that Communists and Nazis were allied. Thanks for confirming this for me, 188.165.201.86.
Hi. I've reverted an edit by Jason from nyc, which, as I read it, aimed to specify which parts of the Eurabia theory is important for American counter-jihadists. I've done this mainly because I think the new text was imprecise. That is, while the reference does not make any specification at all, I've got a clear impression that the possible shift in European nations' views on Israel is not the only reason why they have found interest in the Eurabia conspiracy theories. -- benjamil ( talk) 19:35, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
When professor Cas Mudde moved to the U.S., he was surprised by the prevalence/penetration/reach (no. "gjennomslagskraft" means something like "ability to reach through") of the Eurabia conspiracy and people like Bruce Bawer. -I met conservatives who were obviously not nuts, who were asking about Eurabia. What I'd failed to grasp when I was living in Europe, was how 'mainstream' people like Bruce Bawer are in the U.S. Those using Eurabia-arguments are influential people in the conservative movement. Bawer is regarded as an expert on the European situation, because he lives there, says Mudde. -Why hasn't the idea got the same foothold in Europe? -Most Europeans are not convinced by the arguments. The idea that there will be a muslim majority by 2050 just doesn't strike home. Mudde points out that the Eurabia theory bolsters the argument that Europe has let the U.S. and Israel down in the war against terror, because it is infiltrated by muslims. -In the U.S. Eurabia is a matter of foreign policy, in Europe it's a domestic matter. The concept of Eurabia isn't as relevant to European political parties as to a small group of counterjihadis, most of them American, says Mudde, and stresses that the milieu is non-violent.
Different variations. The intellectual ambitions of the Eurabia milieu/movement (milieu seems a bit high-brow i English?) have to a small extent been met by Academia. In Scandinavia, for instance, there are no academic milieus/groups that have studied the phenomenon. However, one researcher that has knowledge about the literature and theories is Mattias Gardell, professor at Uppsala University. He recently wrote an epilogue to his latest book, Islamophobia, where he analyses the so-called manifesto of Anders Behring Breivik. He explains that there are different variations over the Eurabia theme, in addition to Bat Ye'Or's "mother conspiracy". -One variety revolves around something called the "Protocol", which allegedly was found in a Swiss villa. According to the theory, this is supposedly a protocol for the Muslim Brotherhood, which reveals how they plan to take over Europe, how they are going to control the media, and how they will spread multiculturalism, anti-racism and other politically correct ideas to weaken the European will to resistance. A third variety argues that al-Qaida has a seven-step program for overtaking Europe, says Gardell. He sees clear similarities between these theories and the theory that flourished before World War II, about a Jewish world conspiracy. -They are constructed in the same way as this theory, and have the same credibility as it. They are obvious conspiracy theories, says gardell.
Spreading the theory. One of those who believe in the Eurabia conspiracy in its purest form, and is working actively to spread its ideas, is the American Robert Spencer, who runs the blog Jihadwatch and leads the organisation Stop Islamization of America. Spencer believes Europe is turning into Eurabia.
Professor [[Cas Mudde]], among others, argues that various [[conspiracy theories]] with roots in [[Bat Ye'Or]]'s [[Eurabia]] are important to the movement. The main theme of these theories is an allegation that European leaders allow a Muslim dominance of Europe, whether by intention or not, through multicultural policies and lax [[immigration laws]].
Unfortunately this article doesn't reflect the real essence of what counterjihad is. There is a long list of problems to be fixed, but for now the lead needs to be revised to the following.
Counterjihad is the exploitation of widespread concerns in Europe about immigration and the spread of Islam, in order to serve Israeli interests. The co-option of European nationalist movements began in the 1990s and had large successes during the 2000s and 2010s with many of those aforementioned movements realigning themselves with Israel and many more being created along the same lines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nygaardes ( talk • contribs) 23:18, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
SothernPoverty Law Centre claims "people are convinced that 0.6 percent of the U.S. population is on the verge of trampling the Constitution and imposing an Islamic, Shariah-guided caliphate in its place". This is a red herring that is constantly inserted by certain parties bent on confuding the issue. In the US, most Moslems are harmless. But the leadership of the Moslems are mostly terrorist sympathisers. See http://shariahthethreat.org/2010/09/thinkprogress-strikes-out-on-team-b-ii-report/ on the Fiqh Council of N America, which despite its pompous name, appears to be nothing but a gang of terrorists! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mumbo-jumbophobe ( talk • contribs) 15:41, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
What are the worth and reliability of
? Visite fortuitement prolongée ( talk) 20:51, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
I see some disagreement about the best way to describe this movement. There were some edits (not by me) over a POV issue. Let me raise the issue for discussion although I suspect it might have been discussed before.
The current versions describes the movement as Islamophobic. On the Islamophobia page it says: Islamophobia describes prejudice against, hatred or irrational fear of Islam or Muslims. Thus, a judgment is being made as to whether the movement is irrational in its fear. Should this be in a definition? I clearly should be expressed below with experts cited. But a definition should state the genus and differentia. Yes, I know the first statement isn't a formal definition. However, calling the movement irrational by definition puts forth a point of view, WP:POV. I suggest that Islamophobic be replaced by anti-Islam or better yet anti-Islamism. Further down, experts can be cited on the question of irrational or prejudice (i.e. a pre-jugment), etc. This should satisfy all and reach a consensus. Jason from nyc ( talk) 13:04, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
This fear of Islam and Muslims is central and distinguishing feature of the counter jihad.
European Muslims have come to be portrayed as a threat from a security perspective, as if all would-be terrorists, or at least in danger of being radicalized. There also arose a perception that Muslims pose a threat from a cultural perspective, with expositions that Islam is incompatible with Europe's traditions. ... In short, the American fear of Islam was linked to counter-terrorism, while Europeans established the links with immigration.
Finally he notes that the counter-jihadi, with a few exception such as the liberal gay Bruce Bawer, tend to be cultural conservatives. Thus, I don't see the more harsh term, Islamophobia, distinguishing the broad concerns of immigration and assimilation with the unique focus of the counter-jihadi. I'm not saying there isn't a heightened sense of alarm in the counter-jihadi movement. Obviously there is. I'm just questioning wether the first reference is clearly suggesting Islamophobia. I think that's an inference--a respectable inference--but an inference nevertheless. It should be stating this outright and it shouldn't be the only reference to do so. I'd like you to reconsider anti-Islam which, as you point out, is one way to be Islamophobic and which, as I pointed out, is redirected to the Islamophobia page through the hyperlinks. Jason from nyc ( talk) 00:24, 6 February 2012 (UTC)The idea of multiculturalism has failed, is now being promoted by many politicians, even among the moderate left and right parties ...
Ok, from today's newspaper I have added a source for the islamophobic element of the counterjihad movement. The relevant quote is "Med detta sagt måste man ändå komma ihåg att den islamofobiska ”counterjihad-rörelsen”, som Brevik inspirerats av, är något helt annat än den nazistiska vit makt-rörelsen som härjade på 90-talet." (rough translation: "Having said this one must remember that the islamophobic ”counterjihad-rörelsen” that inspired Breivik is something completley different than the nazi white power movement of the 90s.") // Liftarn ( talk)
It seems that editors (even with the exclusion of the few Nordic-phobic anonymous ones) have reservations on positioning the Islamophobic label in the lead sentence. As I was never satisfied on a number of grounds (see above), I question that use of this controversial label given that it is used in only a few of the sources. I believe it should be in the body of the article but has undue weight in the lead. I see others have similar reservations (leaving out the POV rants that are distracting). Jason from nyc ( talk) 14:41, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Once again we see continual objections to the Islamopobia label in the first sentence. There is a question that it satisfies WP:LEAD. It is used mainly by two Swedish journalists in the aftermath of the Utoya atrocity. The scholars we use are more cautious and careful picking terms and descriptors. This gives WP:UNDUE weight to specific journalists at a specific point in time that is unrepresented by the bulk of the article and broader community of commentators. I think it is time to move the term from the lead and mention it only in the body of the article. Jason from nyc ( talk) 11:58, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Sorry for edit warring btw, but it is far to much of a generalization and inaccuracy to label all counter jihad groups under these labels. Not all these groups promote Eurabia or call for an end Islamic migration. Many scholars may claim counter jihad groups are these terms but these are still claims and not fact so should be treated as such on wikepedia. The way I wrote the info as claims which they are is far more accurate. You cannot write down these claims as factual. How was my wording not more accurate. Also regarding accusations against these groups of being islamaphobic. Why is 1 or 2 sources written by random authors enough to factually claim these blogs or groups to be islamaphobic on wikepedia.
In my own opinion, regarding counter jihad, considering the only thing all counter jihad groups or blogs have in common, is there opposition to Islamic extremism, how is counter jihad inherently far right or islamaphobic. Some counter jihad groups are islamaphobic though but some aren't. Some counter jihad groups are actually quite liberal, so how are all counter jihad groups Far right.
Anyway I just think claims and opinions should not be represented as fact. 88.104.212.172 ( talk) 22:40, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
The title of the movement is "Counterjihad", a term which make no sense other than as implicitly assuming that jihad is to be understood in its extremist sense and so suggesting an a priori hostility to Islam. The most prominent names associated with the Counterjihad movement are known not just for their denunciation of Islamic extremism but also for their opposition to Muslim immigration and manifestations of Muslim culture, accompanied by sweepingly hostile and often contemptuous generalisations about Muslim communities and individuals. they also tend to be supportive of one another's extreme positions. There is quite a lot of supporting evidence available and cited. If you want to convince anyone that counterjihad is not Islamophobic you need to come up with some evidence that a significant group of members of the Counterjihad movement are not far right Islamophobes. Opbeith ( talk) 23:19, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
Not all counter Jihad groups are Islamaphobes. I am pretty sure Robert Spencer for instance is not islamaphobic. He has stated that he is not against all muslims and that he supports religious freedom, equality of rights and welcomes any muslim to join his cause. He is liberal sand hates the far right. There are others obviously. On the other hand can you prove all counter jihad people are far right islamaphobes? Do you you seriously think all members of the Counterjihad movement are far right Islamophobes? Anyway claims and opinions should not be represented as fact on wikepedia. Also why was my version of the lead not more accurate since the sources are claims and opinions not fact. I am not interested in long debate over this. 88.104.212.172 ( talk) 23:52, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
Not all counter jihad groups are Islamaphobic far right so it should not be generalised as such. The KKK's ideology probably invloves antisemitism though. Not all counter Jihad groups ideology is islamaphobia or far right. Are all couter jihad groups islamaphobic. Of course not. Claims and Opinions should not be stated as fact. How is the wording Counterjihad is a political current that has been described as anti-Islamic, islamophobic, far-right and intellectual. not more accurate or better. Isn't wiki supposed to be about accuracy. These sources are claims and opinions not fact. It should be articulated that way. 88.104.212.172 ( talk) 09:43, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
How is this original research. I want to wright that counter jihad has been described as these terms which is exactly what the sources say. They are describing counter jihad as these terms in the sources. Not original research. You are the ones doing original research by writing down opinions and accusations as fact. Regardless of wether many scholars claim counter jihad is islamaphobic. The wording Counterjihad is a political current that has been described as anti-Islamic, islamophobic, far-right and intellectual. is more accurate and gives of the same impression as the current version. Surely there is a wiki rule saying you not supposed represent claims and accusations as fact. 88.104.212.172 ( talk) 11:44, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
By the way I have no problem with you describing Counter jihad as anti Islam because they themselves would hardly disagree. Also I would say a dislike for Muslim culture and a general oppostition would not inherently count as Islamaphobic. Obviously a general hatred of all Muslims would count as islamaphobic but not a general opposition to Islamic culture (including immigration). Although I do agree that the vast majority of these groups are extreme or go to far and some are without a doubt Islamaphobic I just think you are being very unfair to some of these by generalising. Frankly the Far-right is a more incorrect term than islamaphobic. Some of these would probably laugh at being described as far right (although some would welcome it). I will try an find sources to back up my claims. 88.104.212.172 ( talk) 12:35, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
Islamaphobia only applies to prejudice against, hatred or irrational fear of Muslims. Criticizing the Koran or Islamic culture unfairly does not count as islamaphobia. Islamaphobia is supposed to prejudice against someone for being Muslim. Islamaphobia is anti-Muslim like racism is anti-black or anti-white. Opposition to Islamic emigration is not inherently islamaphobic. This is an opposition to Islamic culture which is what they see Muslim communities bringing with them. Not that you mentioned this, but opposing Islamic culture is not Islamaphobic. Unfairly criticizing Islamic culture is like unfairly criticizing American culture. It is culture not racism(islamaphobia). Many will oppose Islamic emigration for islamaphobic reasons but many don't. Opposition to emigration is too extreme mostly but is not inherently islamaphobic. I don't know many of these counter jihad people but Robert Spencer for instance does not oppose Islam or argue without principled reason. Counter Jihad groups are not all the same so it they should not be labeled as all being these labels. Accusations and opinions should not be presented as facts.
How about the lead be changed from "Counterjihad is an anti-Islamic,[1][2][3] islamophobic,[4] far-right,[1] and intellectual[5][6] political current." to "Counterjihad is an anti-Islamic[1][2][3] and intellectual[5][6] political current usually associated with the far-right[1]. The movement has also regularily been described as islamophobic[4]." What are your thoughts? I don't really mind too much but I definitely think it is much fairer and more accurate as per sources as well. 88.104.212.172 ( talk) 14:21, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
I will shortly revert jason from nyc's removal of Munksgaard's thesis, because Little Green Footballs is a former centre of the counterjihad movement, from whence came, for instance Pamela Geller. This point is made in the thesis. Also, its separation from the counterjihad sphere is documented by a piece in Jihad Watch. The process of distancing is described as having taken place when the blog rejected outright Islamophobia, to the preference of a more subtle one. Why would you consider that not relevant? benjamil talk/ edits 21:41, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
Let's examine the 3 academic documents.First consider Denes’ work [10] His paper is organized in 5 sections: 1. Narrative plurality 2. Local events, globalising scripts: Homophobic and Islamophobic activism in London, 2011 3. Welcome to the Counterjihad: Confronting Europe’s Islamist overthrow 4. The Islamophobic international: Counterjihad as “all-European process” 5. Conclusion.
Section 3 actually isn’t about “confronting” but about cultural aspects of the anti-jihad writers such as Fallaci, Bawer, Thornton, Steyn, etc. He notes that they sound like Oswald Spengler in their resignation the West's decline. It’s section 4 that he notes activism and shows he has done his homework by talking about the main actors: Stop the Islamisation of Denmark, Gravers, Geller, Spencer, Filip Dewinter, EDL, etc. This section is actually about the counter-jihad movement and makes the paper worth citing in our article.
Liz Fekete shows she has read Breivik or about Breivik. She shows little evidence of having read the counter-jihadi websites but instead defers to Breivik and comentators of Breivik. At one point she defers to Toby Archer, who we use directly. Thus, she adds nothing of her own. Her analysis is to understand the counter-jihad as filtered through Breivik. This is fine in the Breivik article. Fekete does review cultural conservatives but there is no original research into the documents and websites of the counter-jihadi. Denes has read the primary material. Fekete gives us a boilerplate narrative that fits her ideology but she doesn’t give us facts from the sources. She adds nothing of substance for our article.
Munksgaard’s dissertation [11] considers 3 cases: Little Green Football, One Good Move, Fark. On page 34 he says LGF was “until recently one of the most influential blogs in the ‘anti-jihadist movement.’" (p34) He notes that Charles Johnson (the owner of LGF) is a Bush supporter (p39). The counter-jihadi oppose Bush’s policies in Iraq and Afghanistan. Oddly enough, Munksgaard spends pages on the anonymous people who leave comments on LGF’s blog when he could have analyzed Johnson’s writings. On page 65 Munksgaard starts to talk about Johnson’s refusal to join the counter-jihad shortly after its inception. It was “Gates of Vienna’s” and Geller’s association with Vlaams Belang that caused Johnson to avoid joining the counter-jihad. Geller and Spencer were “roundly denounced” by Johnson “for attending the counterjihad summit” in 2007. (page 66). Thus, Johnson never was a member of the counter-jihadi. This dissertation isn't about the counter-jihad.
Johnson regularly denounced other blogs for overt displays of racism, displays that Johnson saw as both morally and pragmatically detrimental to the anti-‐Jihadist cause. His uneasy feelings about his fellow anti-‐Jihadists became most apparent during a public struggle between himself and Pamela Geller, a former LGF member who runs the prominent conservative blog Atlas Shrugs and who claims that Johnson was “the reason I started blogging” (Weigel 2009).
After the final standing ovation organizer Geller called on those present to donate money for Wilders' lawsuit. "Alle bedragen zijn welkom want het is 'bloody expensive. "All amounts are welcome because it is bloody expensive." "How much money they had obtained it did not say, but it was probably not much. "But it was not for me. I have the rent for the room and all facilities paid. And all we get beautiful." On its Web site, which attracts thousands of visitors daily, is now a link to Wilders' fund.
Geller was there (at the Counterjihad conference in 2007, my note), as well as Robert Spencer of jihadwatch.org (a Web site Johnson himself designed)(my emphasis)
Thus, it is only Denes is relevant to our article. The others can be valuable to other articles but not as authorities that are suitable for the leading paragraph of this article. Jason from nyc ( talk) 02:04, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
PS. Since I reverted the bold edit, according to WP:BRD it shouldn't be inserted until we discuss and reach a consensus. Please leave out Fekete and Munksgaard until a consensus is reached. Jason from nyc ( talk) 02:19, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
In summary, we’ve arrived at a new consensus (read 22:01, 31 August 2012 (UTC) insert above and after). We’ll rely on Denes in the lead to support the descriptor Islamophobia but without prejudice towards the other two academic authors for the insertion of statements in the body of the article or other articles as their work supports. We’ll continue to maintain anti-Islamic descriptor in addition to Islamophobia. Jason from nyc ( talk) 12:01, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
Several times [13] [14] [15] on no or spurious grounds. Please discuss it here. // Liftarn ( talk)
Sorry to bother you, but I have found an other source claiming suggesting that, if the Eurabia theory is right (as claimed by most of the Counterjihad movement), then violence is the only option to save Europe from her doomy fate:
If you buy those very arguments, as expressed by [Andrew] Berwick (and Geller and Spencer), what option do you really have but the fascist solutions [Anders Behring Breivik] recommends and the neo-fascist violence he unleashed? When an entire population in your midst is the enemy within and your government is acquiescing to it and your entire civilization is thereby doomed, what does Bruce [Bawer] think a blue-eyed patriot like Berwick should do? Is the leap to violence so obviously insane? Or is it actually the only logical conclusion to the tyranny Berwick believed he faced?
in Andrew Sullivan, Bawer vs Bawer, 2011-07-25. Thought? Visite fortuitement prolongée ( talk) 20:07, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
Fascism is openly contemptuous of democracy. I don't think any counter jihad group matches this description. Your logic is faulty if you conclude that countejihad MUST be Fascist because its strategic outlook leaves them no choice but to opt for Fascist methods. This reasoning makes assumptions about facts and about peoples' desires and thoughts that are not explicitly set forth and appear to me very dubious. In any case the reasoning depends on a lot of assumptions that must be clarified,. Thus a diagnosis of Fascism is premature, to say the least. Mumbo-jumbophobe (talk) 15:27, 12 November 2012 (UTC) Mumbojumbophobe Mumbo-jumbophobe ( talk) 15:32, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
The leading french newsmagazine Le Nouvel Observateur published today several pages about right or far-right people and organisation, including the French proponents of the Counterjihad movement . Visite fortuitement prolongée ( talk) 20:47, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
An RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 16:37, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps the description of "intellectual" should be replaced with "ideological". There is an important distinction to be made here.
Especially regarding connotations -- the intolerance implied with far-right and islamophobic doesn't sit well with the notion that academics tend to see the topic approvingly implied by intellectual.
Never mind the fact that the sources linked to do little to show counter-jihad as something "intellectual" or "deep".
Guys - the counterjihad movement is VERY multi-colored and many parts of society is involved. Please keep the NPOV. Hamnavoe ( talk) 11:08, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
In topics of ongoing political polemics, you may by all means use your sources to attribute opinions. Obviously you cannot take random opinions you happen to agree with and present them as "facts". This should be easy to understand and respect. Think about it. Because humans are deceitful, both of the following are absolutely real:
If you call bs on one, you'll also have to call bs on the other. It will be best for you and for everybody else if you just stay make it a general rule to denounce disingenious propaganda while paying attention to intelligent criticism. -- dab (𒁳) 12:49, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
The lead should give a purported or nominal use of the term in the first sentence. This is more the style of an encyclopedia. For example, socialism is nominally the social ownership of production and capitalism is the private ownership. One wouldn't want to define capitalism saying it creates great inequality or is a social system by and for capitalists. This is part of the further analysis and controversy. Jason from nyc ( talk) 12:30, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
In our case, it appears that everyone (including counter-jihadi) sees the movement as an opposition to the spread in the West. Critics point out that it doesn't stop there but is generally anti-Muslim. That's in the second sentence as it should be. How the movement opposes "Islam" is a detailed question explored by the rest of the article. Also, notice that it is a local movement. It is not "let's go there and fight them" but merely "go home, we don't want you here." This is a parochialism (if you think of it as benign) or a nativism (if you think it malignant) that gives rise to the far-right contention. Jason from nyc ( talk) 12:30, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
The first two sentences give both nominal meaning and substantive criticism to complete the picture and reflect the sources in the manner that an encyclopedia should. Jason from nyc ( talk) 12:30, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
Saying that counterjihad is "opposing the spread of Islam in the West" is very misleading as that a) they oppose Islam everywhere, b) the spread is dubious, c) they are also against Muslims and not just the religion. To cover everything the best wording would be "opposing Islam and/or Muslims". // Liftarn ( talk)
This section is opened for discussion of the Counterjihad movement's influence on European political groups.
Luther Blissetts 10:03, 21 May 2016 (UTC) — Preceding
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After reading through this talk page, I thought it might be useful to gather some reliable resources together.
Luther Blissetts 11:27, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
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Luther Blissetts 12:07, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
LutherBlissetts (
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Counterjihad delegate Elisabeth Sabaditsch-Wolff "was found guilty and fined 480 euros" "by an Austrian court of 'disparagement of a religious doctrine: namely Islam" after remarks she made at "an FPO sponsored seminar" (Rosenthal 2011:64)
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help)Luther Blissetts 13:46, 23 May 2016 (UTC) LutherBlissetts ( talk • contribs)
The result of the move request was: Moved to Counter-jihad. No such user ( talk) 11:40, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
Counterjihad → Counter-Jihad – More common usage in the academic literature. See:
Icewhiz removed sourced material here. Can the user explain why? Did the user actually read the paper and it failed verification? I recall the paper saying that counter-jihad is an anti-Muslim network. VR talk 15:33, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
This informal, transnational and web-based network incites hate against Muslims as well as political opponents on the left, often by drawing arguments from a well-known and time-worn repertoire of sources.- without the source used in the body. The article from which this was pulled, wasn't focused on counter-jihad in particular but on far-right movements in Europe in general (or neo-fascist).
@ Icewhiz:, counter-jihad is not counter-terrorism. Far from that. Please educate yourself on the topic before whitewashing this hate movement. Al-Andalusi ( talk) 18:36, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
I agree that there shouldn't be Terrorism or Counter-terrorism tags in this article. VR talk 06:10, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
The article says,
Critics have variously dubbed it as pro-Israel,[2] anti-Islamic[3][4][5], Islamophobic,[6][7][8][9], hate inciting against Muslims,[10] or far-right.[3][9][11]
Given the large number of high quality sources, it should be fair to remove the "critics have" attribution. Or at the very least, change it to "Academic scholars regard the counter-jihad movement to be...". VR talk 22:29, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
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The lead section is overly heavy with citations, and it would help to give a more neutral overview of information cited later in the article. see: WP:LEADCITE
Four different sources from Ben Lee are in the lead alone, representing the corpus of his published work. Mr. Lee does not appear to have expertise related to Islam, only on the internet populism and the right wing. Over-reliance on a single author may give undue weight to a single point of view on the topic, only reflecting aspects of counter-jihad that fit within his area of study, not the movement as a whole.
Lee is heavily used in the article, beginning with the first sentence, to give the impression that the counter-jihad movement deals primarily in far-right conspiracy theories.
The article should begin by laying out the claims (scholarly or otherwise) of the counter-jihad movement before going into criticism or analysis of the claims. I notice this issue is the same with Robert Spencer's WP page, in that the topic is sourced solely on criticism without the main body content of the subject being established first.
Counter-jihadists, aside from 'conspiracy theories', advance critical examination of Islamic sources of theology and current teaching, comparing them to various Islamist organizations, including mainstream Islamic teaching, purporting to raise awareness about Islamic doctrines that are used to justify violence. They also frequently focus on the Muslim Brotherhood and other fundamentalist Islamic organizations who have ties to advocacy groups in the West. Starting the article, fleshing out the article, and concluding the article with sources that categorize the entirety of this activity as far-right conspiracy theorizing is POV, since the work of self-described counter-jihad activists encompasses a much larger range of topics. Again, the WP:Undue Weight given to Lee skews the perception that counter-jihad is entirely a far-right or bigoted movement. Many activists who might fall under the counter-jihad label are in fact left-leaning ex-Muslims.
The article needs serious work or to be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beepborpwhoorpp ( talk • contribs) 02:26, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
The scare-quotes around the terms "keynote speakers", "country reports", and "delegates" are unnecessary, and possibly in violation of Wikipedia policy. AnonMoos ( talk) 02:45, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
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Bellatores keeps reverting the insertion of the WikiProject tagging without discussion in the talk page, and has been reverted by three different users. Clearly there is no consensus for the removal. One user, when restoring, included [1] as a reason. Other than that no one, including Bellatores, has done anyhting other than speak via edit summary. While I love its twitter-like qualities, which mean succinct messages, this clearly needs to stop and be discussed under BRD.
So, discuss. In the meantime, consensus clearly shows "keep" so do not change it again or we will think you are edit warring. We could change it after a process of discussion, but we should discuss it first instead of warring.--
Cerejota (
talk) 07:11, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Ok. I've now expanded the article, added some subheadings and listed a scholarly source, as well as one of the movement's most prominent members view on why the movement exists. The negative allegations have been grouped into one paragraph and to some extent rephrased in more neutral language. The paragraph on organization is rather stubbish, but offers a starting point for further editing. I've done a bit of research and expect to be able to write a couple of paragraphs on various affiliate organizations. For the convenience of other editors, take a look at this report and this internet resource. The question of whether counterjihad should be grouped with the project fascism as such remains unresolved, for my part. -- benjamil ( talk) 19:12, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
For the record, according to Baron Bodissey, The Breivik Portfolio, Part Four: The Dot-Connection, Gates of Vienna, 2011-08-29, the 2011 Norway attacks were an epic win for the Counterjihad movement, because of "the increased Gates of Vienna traffic, which was unprecedented. The number of new readers at Jihad Watch and Atlas Shrugs [...] must have been astronomical. [...] Mr. Breivik [...] showed himself to be brilliant, dedicated, focused, and single-minded at Utøya." Visite fortuitement prolongée ( talk) 21:37, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
For the record: A Brief History of the Transatlantic Counterjihad, Gates of Vienna, 2011. Visite fortuitement prolongée ( talk) 22:42, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
I haven't heard of "Counterjihad" before, and I find this article confusing. To begin with, keeping in mind the WP:BLP implications of the labeling going on here, can people here provide three reliable sources each for the claim that it is "Islamophobic" and "far-right"? We would need the source, and the quote that explicitly uses the term "Islamophobic" or "Far-right". Jayjg (talk) 20:01, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
I don't get this, criticizing a religion that teaches rape victims should be stoned to death while the rapist walks scot free is akin to being a Nazi? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.252.209.89 ( talk) 09:57, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Reading through this article, I came across this sentence:
Anders Behring Breivik, responsible for the 2011 Norway attacks, published a manifesto explaining his views which drew heavily on the work of counterjihad bloggers such as Fjordman. [1]
I read the source supporting this particular sentence, and its use appears to be WP:NOR, since it nowhere mentions "Counterjihad". Can anyone here explain why it is being used here? Have I missed a reference to Counterjihad in the source? Jayjg (talk) 20:12, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
The article correctly mentions Breivik's copious usages of Counterjihad literature. However, it is somewhat ambiguous when it says "his views ... drew heavily on." What views? His goals and ambitious for Norway? Or his view on violent conflict? The reason I bring this up is that there is and was a condemnation of his tactics (see ref 5, New York Times). Just as we used to distinguish between socialism and communism by the latter's dedication to violent overthrow, we should be careful not to imply that Breivik's revolutionary philosophy is shared by what may be a movement that is dedicated to democratic change. During the Cold War, calling all socialist "communists" was considered "red-baiting" and unfair. As far as I know, Breivik's terrorist attack and all violent revolutionary action is rejected by the leaders of the counterjihad. One can find most of them condemning violence as a path to social change. They seem to be the "socialist" evolutionary types while Breivik is the "communist" revolutionary counterpart.
I suggest we add a quote from ref 5 that balances this statement:
Jason from nyc ( talk) 13:01, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
There is no wiki page for "Edward S. May" nor do I see any reference that May is Barron Bodissey. Was the page or link removed? This needs to be fixed. Jason from nyc ( talk) 15:01, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
Visite fortuitement prolongée, I removed your edits because the references weren't talking about the Counter-jihad movement in general. There is no mention of "counter-jihad." There are specific articles on the individuals in question. I believe the material is worthy of inclusion ... elsewhere. To include it in this article would be WP:OR and WP:Synthesis. Jason from nyc ( talk) 02:38, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
Mumbo-jumbophobe wrote: The following sentence was deleted because it has no discernible meaning, thus it cannot be either true or false: "Firstly, the establishment of an allegedly continuous and coherent connection between the present-day conflict between the Christian West and Muslims, whereas analyses based on established historical science will dismiss any such claim as unfounded." Something seems to be missing. Moreover not a single one of the alleged "analyses based on established historical science" is cited. That sounds like ideologically inspired baloney. If she can't cite any sources, the passage should be deleted. Mumbo-jumbophobe ( talk) 18:44, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
The anti racism organization 'Hope not hate' has opened a section on the 'counter jihad' movement mapping out the prime movers and shakers. I expect this valuable information to be incorporated into this wikipedia article. located here — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.231.88.234 ( talk) 19:04, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
Clearly "Hope not Hate" is a partisan group with an opinion. I question the source. Jason from nyc ( talk) 11:37, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
About "Counterjihad have largely replaced earlier neo-nazism and the traditional far right thus making their ideas more respectable.", I would rather write "Counterjihad take place in a broard change in European far right, which is less antisemitic and more anti-Islam."
Two other sources:
Visite fortuitement prolongée ( talk) 20:26, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Hope not hate is a great source, but it doesn't cover every single node in the international "counterjihad" network . Anyhow, it is quite interesting to see the listed organizations' links to Israel and how many individuals involved in those organizations are jewish. Makes it very obvious for what purpose this anti Muslim hatred is being promoted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.165.201.86 ( talk) 06:08, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
Here is a source from real British nationalists explaining what "counterjihad" is all about http://www.bnp.org.uk/news/national/propaganda-web-guide-all-nationalists
I always knew that Communists and Nazis were allied. Thanks for confirming this for me, 188.165.201.86.
Hi. I've reverted an edit by Jason from nyc, which, as I read it, aimed to specify which parts of the Eurabia theory is important for American counter-jihadists. I've done this mainly because I think the new text was imprecise. That is, while the reference does not make any specification at all, I've got a clear impression that the possible shift in European nations' views on Israel is not the only reason why they have found interest in the Eurabia conspiracy theories. -- benjamil ( talk) 19:35, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
When professor Cas Mudde moved to the U.S., he was surprised by the prevalence/penetration/reach (no. "gjennomslagskraft" means something like "ability to reach through") of the Eurabia conspiracy and people like Bruce Bawer. -I met conservatives who were obviously not nuts, who were asking about Eurabia. What I'd failed to grasp when I was living in Europe, was how 'mainstream' people like Bruce Bawer are in the U.S. Those using Eurabia-arguments are influential people in the conservative movement. Bawer is regarded as an expert on the European situation, because he lives there, says Mudde. -Why hasn't the idea got the same foothold in Europe? -Most Europeans are not convinced by the arguments. The idea that there will be a muslim majority by 2050 just doesn't strike home. Mudde points out that the Eurabia theory bolsters the argument that Europe has let the U.S. and Israel down in the war against terror, because it is infiltrated by muslims. -In the U.S. Eurabia is a matter of foreign policy, in Europe it's a domestic matter. The concept of Eurabia isn't as relevant to European political parties as to a small group of counterjihadis, most of them American, says Mudde, and stresses that the milieu is non-violent.
Different variations. The intellectual ambitions of the Eurabia milieu/movement (milieu seems a bit high-brow i English?) have to a small extent been met by Academia. In Scandinavia, for instance, there are no academic milieus/groups that have studied the phenomenon. However, one researcher that has knowledge about the literature and theories is Mattias Gardell, professor at Uppsala University. He recently wrote an epilogue to his latest book, Islamophobia, where he analyses the so-called manifesto of Anders Behring Breivik. He explains that there are different variations over the Eurabia theme, in addition to Bat Ye'Or's "mother conspiracy". -One variety revolves around something called the "Protocol", which allegedly was found in a Swiss villa. According to the theory, this is supposedly a protocol for the Muslim Brotherhood, which reveals how they plan to take over Europe, how they are going to control the media, and how they will spread multiculturalism, anti-racism and other politically correct ideas to weaken the European will to resistance. A third variety argues that al-Qaida has a seven-step program for overtaking Europe, says Gardell. He sees clear similarities between these theories and the theory that flourished before World War II, about a Jewish world conspiracy. -They are constructed in the same way as this theory, and have the same credibility as it. They are obvious conspiracy theories, says gardell.
Spreading the theory. One of those who believe in the Eurabia conspiracy in its purest form, and is working actively to spread its ideas, is the American Robert Spencer, who runs the blog Jihadwatch and leads the organisation Stop Islamization of America. Spencer believes Europe is turning into Eurabia.
Professor [[Cas Mudde]], among others, argues that various [[conspiracy theories]] with roots in [[Bat Ye'Or]]'s [[Eurabia]] are important to the movement. The main theme of these theories is an allegation that European leaders allow a Muslim dominance of Europe, whether by intention or not, through multicultural policies and lax [[immigration laws]].
Unfortunately this article doesn't reflect the real essence of what counterjihad is. There is a long list of problems to be fixed, but for now the lead needs to be revised to the following.
Counterjihad is the exploitation of widespread concerns in Europe about immigration and the spread of Islam, in order to serve Israeli interests. The co-option of European nationalist movements began in the 1990s and had large successes during the 2000s and 2010s with many of those aforementioned movements realigning themselves with Israel and many more being created along the same lines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nygaardes ( talk • contribs) 23:18, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
SothernPoverty Law Centre claims "people are convinced that 0.6 percent of the U.S. population is on the verge of trampling the Constitution and imposing an Islamic, Shariah-guided caliphate in its place". This is a red herring that is constantly inserted by certain parties bent on confuding the issue. In the US, most Moslems are harmless. But the leadership of the Moslems are mostly terrorist sympathisers. See http://shariahthethreat.org/2010/09/thinkprogress-strikes-out-on-team-b-ii-report/ on the Fiqh Council of N America, which despite its pompous name, appears to be nothing but a gang of terrorists! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mumbo-jumbophobe ( talk • contribs) 15:41, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
What are the worth and reliability of
? Visite fortuitement prolongée ( talk) 20:51, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
I see some disagreement about the best way to describe this movement. There were some edits (not by me) over a POV issue. Let me raise the issue for discussion although I suspect it might have been discussed before.
The current versions describes the movement as Islamophobic. On the Islamophobia page it says: Islamophobia describes prejudice against, hatred or irrational fear of Islam or Muslims. Thus, a judgment is being made as to whether the movement is irrational in its fear. Should this be in a definition? I clearly should be expressed below with experts cited. But a definition should state the genus and differentia. Yes, I know the first statement isn't a formal definition. However, calling the movement irrational by definition puts forth a point of view, WP:POV. I suggest that Islamophobic be replaced by anti-Islam or better yet anti-Islamism. Further down, experts can be cited on the question of irrational or prejudice (i.e. a pre-jugment), etc. This should satisfy all and reach a consensus. Jason from nyc ( talk) 13:04, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
This fear of Islam and Muslims is central and distinguishing feature of the counter jihad.
European Muslims have come to be portrayed as a threat from a security perspective, as if all would-be terrorists, or at least in danger of being radicalized. There also arose a perception that Muslims pose a threat from a cultural perspective, with expositions that Islam is incompatible with Europe's traditions. ... In short, the American fear of Islam was linked to counter-terrorism, while Europeans established the links with immigration.
Finally he notes that the counter-jihadi, with a few exception such as the liberal gay Bruce Bawer, tend to be cultural conservatives. Thus, I don't see the more harsh term, Islamophobia, distinguishing the broad concerns of immigration and assimilation with the unique focus of the counter-jihadi. I'm not saying there isn't a heightened sense of alarm in the counter-jihadi movement. Obviously there is. I'm just questioning wether the first reference is clearly suggesting Islamophobia. I think that's an inference--a respectable inference--but an inference nevertheless. It should be stating this outright and it shouldn't be the only reference to do so. I'd like you to reconsider anti-Islam which, as you point out, is one way to be Islamophobic and which, as I pointed out, is redirected to the Islamophobia page through the hyperlinks. Jason from nyc ( talk) 00:24, 6 February 2012 (UTC)The idea of multiculturalism has failed, is now being promoted by many politicians, even among the moderate left and right parties ...
Ok, from today's newspaper I have added a source for the islamophobic element of the counterjihad movement. The relevant quote is "Med detta sagt måste man ändå komma ihåg att den islamofobiska ”counterjihad-rörelsen”, som Brevik inspirerats av, är något helt annat än den nazistiska vit makt-rörelsen som härjade på 90-talet." (rough translation: "Having said this one must remember that the islamophobic ”counterjihad-rörelsen” that inspired Breivik is something completley different than the nazi white power movement of the 90s.") // Liftarn ( talk)
It seems that editors (even with the exclusion of the few Nordic-phobic anonymous ones) have reservations on positioning the Islamophobic label in the lead sentence. As I was never satisfied on a number of grounds (see above), I question that use of this controversial label given that it is used in only a few of the sources. I believe it should be in the body of the article but has undue weight in the lead. I see others have similar reservations (leaving out the POV rants that are distracting). Jason from nyc ( talk) 14:41, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Once again we see continual objections to the Islamopobia label in the first sentence. There is a question that it satisfies WP:LEAD. It is used mainly by two Swedish journalists in the aftermath of the Utoya atrocity. The scholars we use are more cautious and careful picking terms and descriptors. This gives WP:UNDUE weight to specific journalists at a specific point in time that is unrepresented by the bulk of the article and broader community of commentators. I think it is time to move the term from the lead and mention it only in the body of the article. Jason from nyc ( talk) 11:58, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Sorry for edit warring btw, but it is far to much of a generalization and inaccuracy to label all counter jihad groups under these labels. Not all these groups promote Eurabia or call for an end Islamic migration. Many scholars may claim counter jihad groups are these terms but these are still claims and not fact so should be treated as such on wikepedia. The way I wrote the info as claims which they are is far more accurate. You cannot write down these claims as factual. How was my wording not more accurate. Also regarding accusations against these groups of being islamaphobic. Why is 1 or 2 sources written by random authors enough to factually claim these blogs or groups to be islamaphobic on wikepedia.
In my own opinion, regarding counter jihad, considering the only thing all counter jihad groups or blogs have in common, is there opposition to Islamic extremism, how is counter jihad inherently far right or islamaphobic. Some counter jihad groups are islamaphobic though but some aren't. Some counter jihad groups are actually quite liberal, so how are all counter jihad groups Far right.
Anyway I just think claims and opinions should not be represented as fact. 88.104.212.172 ( talk) 22:40, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
The title of the movement is "Counterjihad", a term which make no sense other than as implicitly assuming that jihad is to be understood in its extremist sense and so suggesting an a priori hostility to Islam. The most prominent names associated with the Counterjihad movement are known not just for their denunciation of Islamic extremism but also for their opposition to Muslim immigration and manifestations of Muslim culture, accompanied by sweepingly hostile and often contemptuous generalisations about Muslim communities and individuals. they also tend to be supportive of one another's extreme positions. There is quite a lot of supporting evidence available and cited. If you want to convince anyone that counterjihad is not Islamophobic you need to come up with some evidence that a significant group of members of the Counterjihad movement are not far right Islamophobes. Opbeith ( talk) 23:19, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
Not all counter Jihad groups are Islamaphobes. I am pretty sure Robert Spencer for instance is not islamaphobic. He has stated that he is not against all muslims and that he supports religious freedom, equality of rights and welcomes any muslim to join his cause. He is liberal sand hates the far right. There are others obviously. On the other hand can you prove all counter jihad people are far right islamaphobes? Do you you seriously think all members of the Counterjihad movement are far right Islamophobes? Anyway claims and opinions should not be represented as fact on wikepedia. Also why was my version of the lead not more accurate since the sources are claims and opinions not fact. I am not interested in long debate over this. 88.104.212.172 ( talk) 23:52, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
Not all counter jihad groups are Islamaphobic far right so it should not be generalised as such. The KKK's ideology probably invloves antisemitism though. Not all counter Jihad groups ideology is islamaphobia or far right. Are all couter jihad groups islamaphobic. Of course not. Claims and Opinions should not be stated as fact. How is the wording Counterjihad is a political current that has been described as anti-Islamic, islamophobic, far-right and intellectual. not more accurate or better. Isn't wiki supposed to be about accuracy. These sources are claims and opinions not fact. It should be articulated that way. 88.104.212.172 ( talk) 09:43, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
How is this original research. I want to wright that counter jihad has been described as these terms which is exactly what the sources say. They are describing counter jihad as these terms in the sources. Not original research. You are the ones doing original research by writing down opinions and accusations as fact. Regardless of wether many scholars claim counter jihad is islamaphobic. The wording Counterjihad is a political current that has been described as anti-Islamic, islamophobic, far-right and intellectual. is more accurate and gives of the same impression as the current version. Surely there is a wiki rule saying you not supposed represent claims and accusations as fact. 88.104.212.172 ( talk) 11:44, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
By the way I have no problem with you describing Counter jihad as anti Islam because they themselves would hardly disagree. Also I would say a dislike for Muslim culture and a general oppostition would not inherently count as Islamaphobic. Obviously a general hatred of all Muslims would count as islamaphobic but not a general opposition to Islamic culture (including immigration). Although I do agree that the vast majority of these groups are extreme or go to far and some are without a doubt Islamaphobic I just think you are being very unfair to some of these by generalising. Frankly the Far-right is a more incorrect term than islamaphobic. Some of these would probably laugh at being described as far right (although some would welcome it). I will try an find sources to back up my claims. 88.104.212.172 ( talk) 12:35, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
Islamaphobia only applies to prejudice against, hatred or irrational fear of Muslims. Criticizing the Koran or Islamic culture unfairly does not count as islamaphobia. Islamaphobia is supposed to prejudice against someone for being Muslim. Islamaphobia is anti-Muslim like racism is anti-black or anti-white. Opposition to Islamic emigration is not inherently islamaphobic. This is an opposition to Islamic culture which is what they see Muslim communities bringing with them. Not that you mentioned this, but opposing Islamic culture is not Islamaphobic. Unfairly criticizing Islamic culture is like unfairly criticizing American culture. It is culture not racism(islamaphobia). Many will oppose Islamic emigration for islamaphobic reasons but many don't. Opposition to emigration is too extreme mostly but is not inherently islamaphobic. I don't know many of these counter jihad people but Robert Spencer for instance does not oppose Islam or argue without principled reason. Counter Jihad groups are not all the same so it they should not be labeled as all being these labels. Accusations and opinions should not be presented as facts.
How about the lead be changed from "Counterjihad is an anti-Islamic,[1][2][3] islamophobic,[4] far-right,[1] and intellectual[5][6] political current." to "Counterjihad is an anti-Islamic[1][2][3] and intellectual[5][6] political current usually associated with the far-right[1]. The movement has also regularily been described as islamophobic[4]." What are your thoughts? I don't really mind too much but I definitely think it is much fairer and more accurate as per sources as well. 88.104.212.172 ( talk) 14:21, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
I will shortly revert jason from nyc's removal of Munksgaard's thesis, because Little Green Footballs is a former centre of the counterjihad movement, from whence came, for instance Pamela Geller. This point is made in the thesis. Also, its separation from the counterjihad sphere is documented by a piece in Jihad Watch. The process of distancing is described as having taken place when the blog rejected outright Islamophobia, to the preference of a more subtle one. Why would you consider that not relevant? benjamil talk/ edits 21:41, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
Let's examine the 3 academic documents.First consider Denes’ work [10] His paper is organized in 5 sections: 1. Narrative plurality 2. Local events, globalising scripts: Homophobic and Islamophobic activism in London, 2011 3. Welcome to the Counterjihad: Confronting Europe’s Islamist overthrow 4. The Islamophobic international: Counterjihad as “all-European process” 5. Conclusion.
Section 3 actually isn’t about “confronting” but about cultural aspects of the anti-jihad writers such as Fallaci, Bawer, Thornton, Steyn, etc. He notes that they sound like Oswald Spengler in their resignation the West's decline. It’s section 4 that he notes activism and shows he has done his homework by talking about the main actors: Stop the Islamisation of Denmark, Gravers, Geller, Spencer, Filip Dewinter, EDL, etc. This section is actually about the counter-jihad movement and makes the paper worth citing in our article.
Liz Fekete shows she has read Breivik or about Breivik. She shows little evidence of having read the counter-jihadi websites but instead defers to Breivik and comentators of Breivik. At one point she defers to Toby Archer, who we use directly. Thus, she adds nothing of her own. Her analysis is to understand the counter-jihad as filtered through Breivik. This is fine in the Breivik article. Fekete does review cultural conservatives but there is no original research into the documents and websites of the counter-jihadi. Denes has read the primary material. Fekete gives us a boilerplate narrative that fits her ideology but she doesn’t give us facts from the sources. She adds nothing of substance for our article.
Munksgaard’s dissertation [11] considers 3 cases: Little Green Football, One Good Move, Fark. On page 34 he says LGF was “until recently one of the most influential blogs in the ‘anti-jihadist movement.’" (p34) He notes that Charles Johnson (the owner of LGF) is a Bush supporter (p39). The counter-jihadi oppose Bush’s policies in Iraq and Afghanistan. Oddly enough, Munksgaard spends pages on the anonymous people who leave comments on LGF’s blog when he could have analyzed Johnson’s writings. On page 65 Munksgaard starts to talk about Johnson’s refusal to join the counter-jihad shortly after its inception. It was “Gates of Vienna’s” and Geller’s association with Vlaams Belang that caused Johnson to avoid joining the counter-jihad. Geller and Spencer were “roundly denounced” by Johnson “for attending the counterjihad summit” in 2007. (page 66). Thus, Johnson never was a member of the counter-jihadi. This dissertation isn't about the counter-jihad.
Johnson regularly denounced other blogs for overt displays of racism, displays that Johnson saw as both morally and pragmatically detrimental to the anti-‐Jihadist cause. His uneasy feelings about his fellow anti-‐Jihadists became most apparent during a public struggle between himself and Pamela Geller, a former LGF member who runs the prominent conservative blog Atlas Shrugs and who claims that Johnson was “the reason I started blogging” (Weigel 2009).
After the final standing ovation organizer Geller called on those present to donate money for Wilders' lawsuit. "Alle bedragen zijn welkom want het is 'bloody expensive. "All amounts are welcome because it is bloody expensive." "How much money they had obtained it did not say, but it was probably not much. "But it was not for me. I have the rent for the room and all facilities paid. And all we get beautiful." On its Web site, which attracts thousands of visitors daily, is now a link to Wilders' fund.
Geller was there (at the Counterjihad conference in 2007, my note), as well as Robert Spencer of jihadwatch.org (a Web site Johnson himself designed)(my emphasis)
Thus, it is only Denes is relevant to our article. The others can be valuable to other articles but not as authorities that are suitable for the leading paragraph of this article. Jason from nyc ( talk) 02:04, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
PS. Since I reverted the bold edit, according to WP:BRD it shouldn't be inserted until we discuss and reach a consensus. Please leave out Fekete and Munksgaard until a consensus is reached. Jason from nyc ( talk) 02:19, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
In summary, we’ve arrived at a new consensus (read 22:01, 31 August 2012 (UTC) insert above and after). We’ll rely on Denes in the lead to support the descriptor Islamophobia but without prejudice towards the other two academic authors for the insertion of statements in the body of the article or other articles as their work supports. We’ll continue to maintain anti-Islamic descriptor in addition to Islamophobia. Jason from nyc ( talk) 12:01, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
Several times [13] [14] [15] on no or spurious grounds. Please discuss it here. // Liftarn ( talk)
Sorry to bother you, but I have found an other source claiming suggesting that, if the Eurabia theory is right (as claimed by most of the Counterjihad movement), then violence is the only option to save Europe from her doomy fate:
If you buy those very arguments, as expressed by [Andrew] Berwick (and Geller and Spencer), what option do you really have but the fascist solutions [Anders Behring Breivik] recommends and the neo-fascist violence he unleashed? When an entire population in your midst is the enemy within and your government is acquiescing to it and your entire civilization is thereby doomed, what does Bruce [Bawer] think a blue-eyed patriot like Berwick should do? Is the leap to violence so obviously insane? Or is it actually the only logical conclusion to the tyranny Berwick believed he faced?
in Andrew Sullivan, Bawer vs Bawer, 2011-07-25. Thought? Visite fortuitement prolongée ( talk) 20:07, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
Fascism is openly contemptuous of democracy. I don't think any counter jihad group matches this description. Your logic is faulty if you conclude that countejihad MUST be Fascist because its strategic outlook leaves them no choice but to opt for Fascist methods. This reasoning makes assumptions about facts and about peoples' desires and thoughts that are not explicitly set forth and appear to me very dubious. In any case the reasoning depends on a lot of assumptions that must be clarified,. Thus a diagnosis of Fascism is premature, to say the least. Mumbo-jumbophobe (talk) 15:27, 12 November 2012 (UTC) Mumbojumbophobe Mumbo-jumbophobe ( talk) 15:32, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
The leading french newsmagazine Le Nouvel Observateur published today several pages about right or far-right people and organisation, including the French proponents of the Counterjihad movement . Visite fortuitement prolongée ( talk) 20:47, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
An RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 16:37, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps the description of "intellectual" should be replaced with "ideological". There is an important distinction to be made here.
Especially regarding connotations -- the intolerance implied with far-right and islamophobic doesn't sit well with the notion that academics tend to see the topic approvingly implied by intellectual.
Never mind the fact that the sources linked to do little to show counter-jihad as something "intellectual" or "deep".
Guys - the counterjihad movement is VERY multi-colored and many parts of society is involved. Please keep the NPOV. Hamnavoe ( talk) 11:08, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
In topics of ongoing political polemics, you may by all means use your sources to attribute opinions. Obviously you cannot take random opinions you happen to agree with and present them as "facts". This should be easy to understand and respect. Think about it. Because humans are deceitful, both of the following are absolutely real:
If you call bs on one, you'll also have to call bs on the other. It will be best for you and for everybody else if you just stay make it a general rule to denounce disingenious propaganda while paying attention to intelligent criticism. -- dab (𒁳) 12:49, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
The lead should give a purported or nominal use of the term in the first sentence. This is more the style of an encyclopedia. For example, socialism is nominally the social ownership of production and capitalism is the private ownership. One wouldn't want to define capitalism saying it creates great inequality or is a social system by and for capitalists. This is part of the further analysis and controversy. Jason from nyc ( talk) 12:30, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
In our case, it appears that everyone (including counter-jihadi) sees the movement as an opposition to the spread in the West. Critics point out that it doesn't stop there but is generally anti-Muslim. That's in the second sentence as it should be. How the movement opposes "Islam" is a detailed question explored by the rest of the article. Also, notice that it is a local movement. It is not "let's go there and fight them" but merely "go home, we don't want you here." This is a parochialism (if you think of it as benign) or a nativism (if you think it malignant) that gives rise to the far-right contention. Jason from nyc ( talk) 12:30, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
The first two sentences give both nominal meaning and substantive criticism to complete the picture and reflect the sources in the manner that an encyclopedia should. Jason from nyc ( talk) 12:30, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
Saying that counterjihad is "opposing the spread of Islam in the West" is very misleading as that a) they oppose Islam everywhere, b) the spread is dubious, c) they are also against Muslims and not just the religion. To cover everything the best wording would be "opposing Islam and/or Muslims". // Liftarn ( talk)
This section is opened for discussion of the Counterjihad movement's influence on European political groups.
Luther Blissetts 10:03, 21 May 2016 (UTC) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
LutherBlissetts (
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After reading through this talk page, I thought it might be useful to gather some reliable resources together.
Luther Blissetts 11:27, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
LutherBlissetts (
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Luther Blissetts 12:07, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
LutherBlissetts (
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Counterjihad delegate Elisabeth Sabaditsch-Wolff "was found guilty and fined 480 euros" "by an Austrian court of 'disparagement of a religious doctrine: namely Islam" after remarks she made at "an FPO sponsored seminar" (Rosenthal 2011:64)
{{
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: |issue=
has extra text (
help)Luther Blissetts 13:46, 23 May 2016 (UTC) LutherBlissetts ( talk • contribs)
The result of the move request was: Moved to Counter-jihad. No such user ( talk) 11:40, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
Counterjihad → Counter-Jihad – More common usage in the academic literature. See:
Icewhiz removed sourced material here. Can the user explain why? Did the user actually read the paper and it failed verification? I recall the paper saying that counter-jihad is an anti-Muslim network. VR talk 15:33, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
This informal, transnational and web-based network incites hate against Muslims as well as political opponents on the left, often by drawing arguments from a well-known and time-worn repertoire of sources.- without the source used in the body. The article from which this was pulled, wasn't focused on counter-jihad in particular but on far-right movements in Europe in general (or neo-fascist).
@ Icewhiz:, counter-jihad is not counter-terrorism. Far from that. Please educate yourself on the topic before whitewashing this hate movement. Al-Andalusi ( talk) 18:36, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
I agree that there shouldn't be Terrorism or Counter-terrorism tags in this article. VR talk 06:10, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
The article says,
Critics have variously dubbed it as pro-Israel,[2] anti-Islamic[3][4][5], Islamophobic,[6][7][8][9], hate inciting against Muslims,[10] or far-right.[3][9][11]
Given the large number of high quality sources, it should be fair to remove the "critics have" attribution. Or at the very least, change it to "Academic scholars regard the counter-jihad movement to be...". VR talk 22:29, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
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The lead section is overly heavy with citations, and it would help to give a more neutral overview of information cited later in the article. see: WP:LEADCITE
Four different sources from Ben Lee are in the lead alone, representing the corpus of his published work. Mr. Lee does not appear to have expertise related to Islam, only on the internet populism and the right wing. Over-reliance on a single author may give undue weight to a single point of view on the topic, only reflecting aspects of counter-jihad that fit within his area of study, not the movement as a whole.
Lee is heavily used in the article, beginning with the first sentence, to give the impression that the counter-jihad movement deals primarily in far-right conspiracy theories.
The article should begin by laying out the claims (scholarly or otherwise) of the counter-jihad movement before going into criticism or analysis of the claims. I notice this issue is the same with Robert Spencer's WP page, in that the topic is sourced solely on criticism without the main body content of the subject being established first.
Counter-jihadists, aside from 'conspiracy theories', advance critical examination of Islamic sources of theology and current teaching, comparing them to various Islamist organizations, including mainstream Islamic teaching, purporting to raise awareness about Islamic doctrines that are used to justify violence. They also frequently focus on the Muslim Brotherhood and other fundamentalist Islamic organizations who have ties to advocacy groups in the West. Starting the article, fleshing out the article, and concluding the article with sources that categorize the entirety of this activity as far-right conspiracy theorizing is POV, since the work of self-described counter-jihad activists encompasses a much larger range of topics. Again, the WP:Undue Weight given to Lee skews the perception that counter-jihad is entirely a far-right or bigoted movement. Many activists who might fall under the counter-jihad label are in fact left-leaning ex-Muslims.
The article needs serious work or to be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beepborpwhoorpp ( talk • contribs) 02:26, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
The scare-quotes around the terms "keynote speakers", "country reports", and "delegates" are unnecessary, and possibly in violation of Wikipedia policy. AnonMoos ( talk) 02:45, 23 February 2020 (UTC)