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This article contains a translation of Gegenreformation from de.wikipedia. from section Direkter Machtbereich der Habsburger |
This article is in need of a "summary and legacy" section at the end. This article ends very abruptly and I think its inappropriate for a period of history that had so many reaching effects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.172.134.23 ( talk) 20:56, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
Wow, there is a lot of work to do here. The treatment of Trent is very poor. It should be outlined briefly by sessions without such sweeping statements with a POV tone. Since Trent had numerous sessions over the course of several decades, it should be a recurring subheading. There is so much material here that it should be first decided whether to organize it chronologically or thematically. Previously, the structure was a real mess with Trent as a heading following be Reforms as a heading with the "Reforms section being a continuation of the Trent discussion. It is even confusing to describe it!
Anyway, am chipping away at this, if anyone out there is interested, give me a holler!-- Vaquero100 00:36, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
== I've deleted the signed comment suggesting this page be moved. If the move is uncontroversial, just do it. If you expect the move to be controversial, follow the procedure described at Wikipedia:Requested moves. -- Stebulus 03:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was no consensus for the move -- Philip Baird Shearer 22:06, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I would like to propose that this article be moved to "Catholic Reformation." There are several good reasons for this. First, it was a reform in the Church. "Counter Reformation" makes it sound like it was anti-reform, which is clearly not true. Second, "Counter Reformation" also makes it sound like it was only a response to the "Protestant Reformation." This is only partially true. Many of the reforms of the Catholic Reformation are not particularly related to Luther or his successors. These aspects include: the profound spiritual movements of the spanish mystics and the French school of spirituality as well as the development of the seminary syste -- Vaquero100 07:51, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Counter-Reformation → Catholic Reformation — The term "Counter-Reformation" implies that the movement was anti-reform. "Catholic Reformation" is the more accurate term as it describes a reform within the Catholic Church. This has become the academically accepted term. -- Vaquero100 05:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Comment Would anyone object if the circular redirect and signed comment were removed from the front page? Maestlin 16:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I just removed the signed comment without reading your comments here. -- 84.153.53.206 17:13, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
A singular voice of opposition is not enough to justify ceasing the question. -- Vaquero100 00:31, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me if this has already been addressed, but what do recent undergraduate history texts call it? Tom Harrison Talk 20:10, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Moved from survey section I had never even heard the term "Catholic Reformation" before coming to this talk page. It is quite commonly referred to as the Counter-Reformation even by
Catholic scholars.
[7] —
Mi
r
a 01:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Maestin, you have cited the most controversial and least repected of "Catholic theologians." Read again more closely Richard McBrien's article and you will see he is listed as a dissident and his principal work is banned for use with college students. -- Vaquero100 20:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Count at least one other supporter for this proposal. Know that he is not a Catholic, but a firm believer that this movement was a response to Humanism before it was a response to Protestantism (a response to Humanism which counted among its tennets a rejection of intercessors, and therefore the Catholic Church).
Another thing: why is there no mention of catechism in an article about the Catholic Reformation?
I know this is late but I support the change. Arthurian Legend ( talk) 00:52, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Counter Reformation:
GOAL:
to take back what the Catholic Church lost to Protestantism.
PROBLEM:
Protestants didn't come back to the Catholic Church
WANTED:
One main church
VS
Catholic Reformation:
GOAL:
to reform Catholic Church (hence the name "Catholic reformation")
PROBLEM:
Popes aren't calling meetings because they are scared their authority will be lowered,
Finally decide that they will call
Council of Trent because Protestantism is spreading fast!
WANTED:
Reform in Catholic Church
71.138.91.40 03:01, 11 October 2006 (UTC)AP STUDENT in HS
Scholars use the terms Catholic Reformation and Counter-Reformation to identify the changes in the Roman Catholic Church that occurred in the 1400s and 1500s. The phrase Catholic Reformation generally refers to the efforts at reform that began in the late Middle Ages and continued throughout the Renaissance. Counter-Reformation means the steps the Catholic Church took to oppose the growth of Protestantism in the 1500s.
For example, Erasmus, More, Fisher, Colet would be regarded as Catholic Reformers, but they were certainly not involved in the Counter Reformation period, which is anchored to Trent. (I would even suggest that the Catholic Reformation goes back 100 years before to Jean Gerson, or perhaps to the Council of Basel.) Of course, there is some overlap, in Rome especially: some members of the Oratory of Divine Love and then the Oratory of Philip Neri spanned some sessions of the Council of Trent.
I would be in favour of a separate page on the Catholic Reformation, as it has its own dynamics, issues and personalities, different from the Counter Reformation and more tied to Southern and Northern Humanism, and it goes against the mythology that the Reformers were the first ones treating corruption seriously. Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 12:46, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
The widely-used term "Counter-Reformation" usually means not only the spiritual reformation of the Catholic Church, but also the violent trials to destroy the protestant movement. E.g. the Hugenots Wars and the Thirty Years War are usually seen as a part of the Counter-Reformation.
In this article, the war violence of the catholic powers is not mentioned at all. The protestants are named "sects", and their eventual return to catholicism is described as fully peaceful. (In the reality, there were hundreds of thousands of victims.)
The article should be completed in this direction, or marked as non-NPOV. (I myself cannot do it because of my poor English.)
-- M.m.h 13:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Sadly, I think that linking the term "Counter-Reformation" to the violence due to religious intolerance between both Protestants and Catholics (who were equally guilty of such violence as were royalty who wished to excuse mass-murder under religious justifications) is a distraction. Some actually believe that the Jesuits are sworn enemies of Protestantism willing to do whatever it takes to demolish the Protestant sects. I know about this because someone from my church tried to excuse his admittedly anti-papist prejudice using such "reasoning."
Protestants right after the Reformation were just as guilty of murdering Catholics as Catholics were of murdering Protestants. Back then, folks in Europe were not as educated as they are today. The Gutenberg Press was recently invented, and Martin Luther's protest was just starting to get attention. To slur present-day Catholics by using the past is akin to blaming German babies most recently born for the Holocaust. In other words, it is wholly inaccurate.
-- Kulturvultur 04:46, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
You are not right. It is not the question to blame somebody, but to describe the term as exactly as possible. At present, only one point of view, or one of several definitions is described. We should at least discern between (1) the counter-reformation as a movement within the catholic church and (2) the counter-reformation as a historical period. -- M.m.h 13:48, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the following statement, as it was tagged "citation needed" for several months.
If anyone can find a source to back up this statement, feel free to re-add it. — An gr If you've written a quality article... 18:32, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Can we expand Counter-Reformation#Spiritual Movements. I believe it's necessary for that's short it provides very little information. You only said about that Spirituali, but that there are so many other movements have sprung up, including those seen on the introduction part of the article. - Pika ten10 ( talk) 06:38, 5 January 2008 (UTC) Well, I expanded. The Spirituali had according to the Wikipedia article here, Zero influence, so why include them? I could name 100 persons equally unimportant at that time -- Ambrosius007 ( talk) 14:09, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm surprised that there's nothing in the article about Counter-Reformation painting or other art forms except music, or the wider cultural project of the Counter-Reformation. There is a separate entry on The Reformation and art which discusses both Protestant and Catholic art, but perhaps there should be a brief summary in this article. I added a reference to the "See also" at the bottom, but that's not a substitute for a proper mention of visual arts, literature, etc, in the article body. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.172.19.20 ( talk) 17:41, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
There should be something more here. -- Secisek ( talk) 19:07, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Being a "protestant", I cannot avoid criticise the idiotic term "counter-reformation". OK, a reformation to counter reformations? The best way to counter-reform is to refuse to do anything... Isn't it instead a reformation in parallel, inspired by (the bad sides, mostly) of protestant reformation? This is my criticism, but shouldn't the name of the article be "Roman-Catholic Revival"? Counter-reformation seems to be a bad term, since it gives the false reactionary impression about a constructive and progressive spiritual work. (??) Said: Rursus ☻ 09:33, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, Johnbod, it might or might not be idiotic, but since you seem to have serious difficulties expressing yourself in English, you hardly seem the right person to pass judgement on a question of terminology. I also notice that most European languages use a similar term: Controriforma in Italian, Contrarreforma in Spanish, Gegenreformation in German, Contre-Réforme in French. It seems both firmly and widely established. Campolongo ( talk) 15:00, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no move. JPG-GR ( talk) 02:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Counter-Reformation → Catholic Reformation — I see that this has been discussed here before, but it has been a while. In my experience, Catholic Reformation is the scholarly norm; rejecting the earlier understanding (mostly originating among 19th protestant scholastic historians) that the reforms of Trent and the Jesuits were entirely reactionary. I realize that this scholarly consensus is not necessarily reflected in online usage (i.e., g-hits), but most online sources are based on the 19th/early 20th cent. scholarship that has passed into the public domain. Pastordavid ( talk) 18:28, 15 June 2008 (UTC) — Pastordavid ( talk) 18:28, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions."In my experience, Catholic Reformation is the scholarly norm." Sources please? Also, while the scholarly norm may have changed, an encyclopedia should reflect more general usage for a wider audience. — AjaxSmack 03:21, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Some sources, collapsed for readability
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That one of your cited sources reads: "Counter-Reformation...By convention, this process is known as the Counter-Reformation, though some scholars prefer Catholic Reformation" seems to support the current title for the article. Cf. some scholars prefer the War for Southern Independence for the less accurate and POV American Civil War but Wikipedia opts for the common name. — AjaxSmack 04:39, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Revision as of 17:55, 26 February 2009 (edit) (undo) 75.165.18.28 (talk)
Removing the unsourced text: "In the end of the Reformation Martian Luther announced, at his death bed, that they were better off under the church."
As it has nothing to do with the article, and a reasonably sourced blog entry denies it: http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2007/01/did-luther-recant-on-his-deathbed.html
FlowRate ( talk) 03:20, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
Leaving the title "Counter Reformation" on the pretext that it is "commonly used" is equivalent to naming an article "America" instead of "The United States of America", "Flu" instead of "Influenza", or "Aryan" instead of "Indo-European"...
To start with, the Protestant Reformation is itself a misnomer. A "reform" in any community, society, or organization is something initiated by existing leadership, using existing channels, in accordance with existing rules - e.g. Catholic Reformation this article deals with, Gorbachev's reforms in the USSR, Deng Xiaoping's reforms in China, healthcare reforms made by governments, education reforms etc. But when some lower-ranking members of any organization claim authority and take things into their own hands locally, capture buildings, expulse their superiors etc - this is should be called a mutiny, rebelion, etc. What if someone today enters, say, a City Hall, throws out all the officials and starts issuing "reforms"? Will we consider that guy a "reformer"??? Thus, correct names would be "Protestant Revolt" and "Catholic Reformation". But even though Protestants incorrectly (as discussed above) called their movement a "Reformation", it should not prevent us from accurately describing the events of this article as a "Catholic Reformation", for the second wrong will not make things right.
Wikipedia should be primarily concerned with its titles be as accurate and as descriptive as possible, and not use titles generated by old-days political propaganda, just because they are "popular", especially as it is possible for everyone searching for "Counter Reformation" to be directed to "Catholic Reformation". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vox Veritatae ( talk • contribs) 10:53, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
The Wikopedia article on the counter-reformation must include a major section on the attacks by Catholics on Protestants. The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary defines "counter-reformation" as "... the movement in the Church of Rome which followed on the Prostetant Reformation." This sense of the term is wider than and not synonymous with The Catholic Revival or the Catholic Reform as the first line of the article suggests. The Oxford definition certainly reflects the approach taken in my university course on European history. I fear that the authors in the WikiProject Catholicism are slanting the article towards the views of the Roman Catholic Church. This is a disservice to the entire Wikopedia undertaking. 24.108.224.158 ( talk) 19:31, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
In Council of Trent Section, it says: "as epistle of st. James states...", is St. james stands for Authorized King James Version for Bible? if so why it is not linked to the specified page? also where is the citation?, which epistle?, the number of chapter and sentence?? thx Wafaashohdy ( talk) 11:24, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
There are references in the article to devotional, observantine, and legalist traditions, but these are not defined. The links are to either to dictionary definitions of devotion and legalism, or to Franciscans in the case of observantine (an article in which the word "observantine" does not occur). What are these words referring to in the context of this article? If observantine is a synonym for Fransiscan, I don't understand what is the specifically Fransiscan influence on the development of the Jesuits. Underalms ( talk) 16:40, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
While I realize that this article has decided to limit itself greatly with the consensus holding that the counter-reformation title should be retained, it nonetheless is true that part of the reason catholic reformation is currently favoured is that the movement to change the church didn't merely start at trent but began even before the council of trent. this is no less evident than the changes in piety in spain, where the reformation itself ended up having little effect. To that end I question why the inquisition isn't even mentioned in this article when it is an integral part of the catholic reformation. indeed it wasn't just a political activity but also combined spiritual movements and an increase in popular piety which fought against many of the abuses the reformation reacted against.
Aquahelper ( talk) 14:43, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
If work on the calendar causes a scientific revolution, then the calendrical work of the Babylonians and Egyptians must have done so in 3,000 B.C. The Maya of Central America did some work on the calendar without starting a scientific revolution. There is a feeble attempt at sarcasm in the article, from James Burke and Kchishol1970. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.176.252.226 ( talk) 13:01, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
It seems to me that LeRoy Froom may not be a reliable source for this article. He is quoted as writing that preterism and futurism were used as ruses by Jesuits to argue with Protestants during this time period. However, Wikipedia lists preterism as developed in the 3rd century, and futurism not developed until the 20th century. The latter (article) does not seem related to theology.
Froom is a Seventh Day Adventist. That religion is listed as believing (among other things) that: "(a) the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon; (b) the pope is the Antichrist; (c) in the last days, Sunday worship will be "the mark of the beast.."
Perhaps a less-biased and more reliable source can be found to replace him? Student7 ( talk) 23:21, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
Froom is reliable. His WP page quotes several book reviews which state that despite his SDA views, his books are invaluable resources for religious and church historians. Froom documents, with quotes and photos of documents, Jesuit sources that show that Preterism and Futurism were developed for the Counter-Reformation. Preterism does have its seeds in the 3rd century, but it was not fully developed and named Preterism until the 16 century specifically to counter the protestant reformation. The wikilink to Futurism should be changed to Futurism (Christianity). Those who read Froom know that his works are exhaustive and largely unbiased. -- RoyBurtonson ( talk) 05:23, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
I'm being flattering to Rome in calling it a flop, the counter-reformation didn't even get to leave a scratch (: — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.65.142.56 ( talk) 07:05, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
I looked at the reliable sources and find "Roman Catholic" is used without any problems as a standard term. I browsed the titles in some self-identified Catholic scholarly journals to demonstrate this: 1) "Faith and Leadership: The Papacy and the Roman Catholic Church" in Catholic Historical Review. (Autumn 2015); 2) "The Feast Of Corpus Christi In Mikulov, Moravia: Strategies Of Roman Catholic Counter-Reform (1579-86)" in Catholic Historical Review (Oct 2010); 3) "Divided Friends: Portraits of the Roman Catholic Modernist Crisis in the United States." in U.S. Catholic Historian (Fall 2013); 4) "The church and the seer: Veronica Lueken, the Bayside movement, and the Roman Catholic hierarchy" in American Catholic Studies (Fall 2012); 5) "Incompatible with God's Design: A History of the Women's Ordination Movement in the U.S. Roman Catholic Church." Catholic Historical Review (Oct 2013); 6) "The Rise and Fall of Triumph: The History of a Radical Roman Catholic Magazine, 1966-1976." Catholic Historical Review (Spring 2015); 7) "Mary, star of hope: Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary in the United States from 1854 to 2010, as seen through the lens of Roman Catholic Marian congregational song." American Catholic Studies (Spring 2013); 8) "Roman Catholic Ecclesiastics In English North America, 1610-58: A Comparative Assessment" CCHA Study Sessions (Canadian Catholic Historical Association). 1999; 9) "Gender, Catholicism, and Spirituality: Women and the Roman Catholic Church in Britain and Europe, 1200-1900." American Catholic Studies (Fall 2012); 10) "Master'S Theses And Doctoral Dissertations On Roman Catholic History In The United States: A Selected Bibliography" U.S. Catholic Historian (Jan 1987). Rjensen ( talk) 10:01, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 13:05, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Counter-Reformation's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "britannica.com":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 20:41, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
There should be a section devoted to the title itself. I'm not not suggesting changing the title, only that the historiography of the term 'Counter-Reformation' and the field needs to be explained. It should show that the field originated within German scholarship which considered this 16th century movement to be a reaction to the Protestant Reformers, but that that view is no longer the predominate view amongst scholars of this movement.
For example, the opening paragraph cites a 180 year old text to define the parameters of the field: Der geschichtliche Ablauf der Auswanderung aus dem Zillertal. In: 1837-auswanderer.de. Zillertaler Auswanderer 1837. Abgerufen am 11. Oktober 2016.). This citation gives the original view of the field, but today is anachronistic.
I am going to put something together. I'll post it here, wait a bit to see if there are any comments, then add it to the article.
German historians in the 19th century coined the term 'Counter-Reformation' to describe a reforming movement within the Catholic Church in the 16th. The consensus at that time was that this movement originated as a response to the challenges of the Protestant Reformers (e.g. Martin Luther and Ulrich Zwingli) in the early decades of the 16t century. Following the writings of the Reformers themselves, this historiography held that the Catholic Church (ca. 1520) was corrupt and badly in need of reform. Luther began opened a path towards reform that attacked abuses and in response the Catholic Church began its own program of reform. The historians called this program the 'Counter-Reformation.'
This historiography remained the consensus within the Anglo-American and German historical academies. Scholars in the 1950s seriously began to question this reading of history. Over the next 20 years, historians, such as John Olin (1969), studying the Catholic Church in the 16th century began to use the term 'Catholic Reformation' in place of 'Counter Reformation'; however, there was no consensus to change the terminology. Between the 1960s and the present day, a number of factors have led to the rejection of the 19th century concept of the 'counter-Reformation'. One important factor has been periodization. Historians of the Catholic Church argued that limiting the beginning of the 'Counter-Reformation' to the start of the years after the Council of Trent (1545-1563) ignored important movements of Catholic reform such as: Conciliarism, the observant movement within religious orders, a renewed focus on the bible, the Brethren of Common Life, reformers such as Erasmus, and new spiritual trends that emphasized a closer personal relationship with God rather than a ritualistic faith.
A second factor contributing to the reappraisal was the reexamination of the concept of 'abuse'. Historians in the second half of the 20th century realized that the abuses that concerned Luther (mandatory fast days, an emphasis on the process of sanctification at the cost of the moment of justification) and Catholic reformers (lax episcopal oversight of dioceses and pluralism) were not the same abuses written about by historians such as Jean Delumeau (the continued and widespread existence of pre-Christian/pagan folk religion and practice).
The debate over terminology was summed up by John O'Malley in Trent and All That: Renaming Catholicism in the Early Modern Era, published 2000. He examined multiple possible terms to describe the Catholic Church's actions in the years between 1400 and 1600 and examined the faults and benefits of each. Safinski ( talk) 20:48, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for your reply. Footnotes will be forthcoming. Can you clarify some things for me? Do you mean that the discussions I brought up have "little trace" in the art-history context and that 15th century art-trends are unhelpful, or do you mean a larger context? I do academic writing, not wikipedia writing, so the wikipedia citation practices still baffle me. Do I have to cite 19th century German sources, can I use 20th century English sources that discuss 19th century German sources? Safinski ( talk) 21:57, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
It's wonderfully clever to package all this up in a single sentence, but to anyone who isn't cramming for the next midterm, after hearing all these terms bandied about in endless permutations and combinations in dull lectures for half a semester, it reads like a grad-school crib sheet.
Key events of the period include: the Council of Trent (1545–63); the excommunication of Elizabeth I (1570), the codification of the uniform Roman Rite Mass (1570), and the Battle of Lepanto (1571), occurring during the pontificate of Pius V; the construction of the Gregorian observatory in Rome, the founding of the Gregorian University, the adoption of the Gregorian calendar, and the Jesuit China mission of Matteo Ricci, all under Pope Gregory XIII (r. 1572–1585); the French Wars of Religion; the Long Turkish War and the execution of Giordano Bruno in 1600, under Pope Clement VIII; the birth of the Lyncean Academy of the Papal States, of which the main figure was Galileo Galilei (later put on trial); the final phases of the Thirty Years' War (1618–48) during the pontificates of Urban VIII and Innocent X; and the formation of the last Holy League by Innocent XI during the Great Turkish War (1683–1699).
Check this micro-fragment out:
the birth of the Lyncean Academy of the Papal States, of which the main figure was Galileo Galilei (later put on trial [under XXX?])
Uniquely not under any particular pontiff, I guess because the birth of the Lyncean Academy, taken together, lacks a clean overlap with the revolving papal door.
In this compacted format, it's very hard for anyone to wade in to edit, to clarify such an omission, whether originally deliberate or otherwise. Not the right register for Wikipedia, IMO. — MaxEnt 17:34, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
I think sentence in the current lead needs improvement: "the Counter-Reformation was a comprehensive effort composed of apologetic and polemical documents and ecclesiastical configuration as decreed by the Council of Trent. " Apart from the odd phrasing, I don't think it summarizes the article: what "ecclesiastical configuration" changed because of Trent? And it makes the Counter-Reformation into ivory tower thing, rather than something that had devotional and theological impact.
One thing about Trent, and the Counter-Reformation, was that it had two threads: one was acting on the same backlog of needed reforms that fed the Reformation, the other was specific responses to the theology of the Reformers (not always contra, but sometimes pro.) I think it would be better to couch the Counter-Reformation in that way. Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 04:17, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
I am adding a Terminology section, and moved some material into it. This what the Reformation article has, and it is a good approach to handle controversial issues which come down to different definitions used by different groups. Rather than the article coming down in favour of one definition, it exposes that some experts say X and some say Y: this gives NPOV by providing balance.
When we look at many of the discussions above, many would have been better handled by a terminology section. The issue is too complex and fraught to be left to the lead, or to be buried near the bottom Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 04:45, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
I have reverted a recent change to the lead.
The cited paper might be used in a paragraph in the body, in some section on architecture, to mention that in the 1560s, Popes improved Rome's sanitation and water system (work started in the 1400s), as Rome had been running out of water and they wanted Rome to be beautiful and glorious. But it is not suitable as a justification for dumbing down the the lead.
That being said, I understand if someone thinks the current word "resurgence" does not give the whole picture. Perhaps "resurgence, reform and reaction" might be a better summary? Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 12:25, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
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This article contains a translation of Gegenreformation from de.wikipedia. from section Direkter Machtbereich der Habsburger |
This article is in need of a "summary and legacy" section at the end. This article ends very abruptly and I think its inappropriate for a period of history that had so many reaching effects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.172.134.23 ( talk) 20:56, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
Wow, there is a lot of work to do here. The treatment of Trent is very poor. It should be outlined briefly by sessions without such sweeping statements with a POV tone. Since Trent had numerous sessions over the course of several decades, it should be a recurring subheading. There is so much material here that it should be first decided whether to organize it chronologically or thematically. Previously, the structure was a real mess with Trent as a heading following be Reforms as a heading with the "Reforms section being a continuation of the Trent discussion. It is even confusing to describe it!
Anyway, am chipping away at this, if anyone out there is interested, give me a holler!-- Vaquero100 00:36, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
== I've deleted the signed comment suggesting this page be moved. If the move is uncontroversial, just do it. If you expect the move to be controversial, follow the procedure described at Wikipedia:Requested moves. -- Stebulus 03:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was no consensus for the move -- Philip Baird Shearer 22:06, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I would like to propose that this article be moved to "Catholic Reformation." There are several good reasons for this. First, it was a reform in the Church. "Counter Reformation" makes it sound like it was anti-reform, which is clearly not true. Second, "Counter Reformation" also makes it sound like it was only a response to the "Protestant Reformation." This is only partially true. Many of the reforms of the Catholic Reformation are not particularly related to Luther or his successors. These aspects include: the profound spiritual movements of the spanish mystics and the French school of spirituality as well as the development of the seminary syste -- Vaquero100 07:51, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Counter-Reformation → Catholic Reformation — The term "Counter-Reformation" implies that the movement was anti-reform. "Catholic Reformation" is the more accurate term as it describes a reform within the Catholic Church. This has become the academically accepted term. -- Vaquero100 05:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Comment Would anyone object if the circular redirect and signed comment were removed from the front page? Maestlin 16:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I just removed the signed comment without reading your comments here. -- 84.153.53.206 17:13, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
A singular voice of opposition is not enough to justify ceasing the question. -- Vaquero100 00:31, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me if this has already been addressed, but what do recent undergraduate history texts call it? Tom Harrison Talk 20:10, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Moved from survey section I had never even heard the term "Catholic Reformation" before coming to this talk page. It is quite commonly referred to as the Counter-Reformation even by
Catholic scholars.
[7] —
Mi
r
a 01:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Maestin, you have cited the most controversial and least repected of "Catholic theologians." Read again more closely Richard McBrien's article and you will see he is listed as a dissident and his principal work is banned for use with college students. -- Vaquero100 20:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Count at least one other supporter for this proposal. Know that he is not a Catholic, but a firm believer that this movement was a response to Humanism before it was a response to Protestantism (a response to Humanism which counted among its tennets a rejection of intercessors, and therefore the Catholic Church).
Another thing: why is there no mention of catechism in an article about the Catholic Reformation?
I know this is late but I support the change. Arthurian Legend ( talk) 00:52, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Counter Reformation:
GOAL:
to take back what the Catholic Church lost to Protestantism.
PROBLEM:
Protestants didn't come back to the Catholic Church
WANTED:
One main church
VS
Catholic Reformation:
GOAL:
to reform Catholic Church (hence the name "Catholic reformation")
PROBLEM:
Popes aren't calling meetings because they are scared their authority will be lowered,
Finally decide that they will call
Council of Trent because Protestantism is spreading fast!
WANTED:
Reform in Catholic Church
71.138.91.40 03:01, 11 October 2006 (UTC)AP STUDENT in HS
Scholars use the terms Catholic Reformation and Counter-Reformation to identify the changes in the Roman Catholic Church that occurred in the 1400s and 1500s. The phrase Catholic Reformation generally refers to the efforts at reform that began in the late Middle Ages and continued throughout the Renaissance. Counter-Reformation means the steps the Catholic Church took to oppose the growth of Protestantism in the 1500s.
For example, Erasmus, More, Fisher, Colet would be regarded as Catholic Reformers, but they were certainly not involved in the Counter Reformation period, which is anchored to Trent. (I would even suggest that the Catholic Reformation goes back 100 years before to Jean Gerson, or perhaps to the Council of Basel.) Of course, there is some overlap, in Rome especially: some members of the Oratory of Divine Love and then the Oratory of Philip Neri spanned some sessions of the Council of Trent.
I would be in favour of a separate page on the Catholic Reformation, as it has its own dynamics, issues and personalities, different from the Counter Reformation and more tied to Southern and Northern Humanism, and it goes against the mythology that the Reformers were the first ones treating corruption seriously. Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 12:46, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
The widely-used term "Counter-Reformation" usually means not only the spiritual reformation of the Catholic Church, but also the violent trials to destroy the protestant movement. E.g. the Hugenots Wars and the Thirty Years War are usually seen as a part of the Counter-Reformation.
In this article, the war violence of the catholic powers is not mentioned at all. The protestants are named "sects", and their eventual return to catholicism is described as fully peaceful. (In the reality, there were hundreds of thousands of victims.)
The article should be completed in this direction, or marked as non-NPOV. (I myself cannot do it because of my poor English.)
-- M.m.h 13:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Sadly, I think that linking the term "Counter-Reformation" to the violence due to religious intolerance between both Protestants and Catholics (who were equally guilty of such violence as were royalty who wished to excuse mass-murder under religious justifications) is a distraction. Some actually believe that the Jesuits are sworn enemies of Protestantism willing to do whatever it takes to demolish the Protestant sects. I know about this because someone from my church tried to excuse his admittedly anti-papist prejudice using such "reasoning."
Protestants right after the Reformation were just as guilty of murdering Catholics as Catholics were of murdering Protestants. Back then, folks in Europe were not as educated as they are today. The Gutenberg Press was recently invented, and Martin Luther's protest was just starting to get attention. To slur present-day Catholics by using the past is akin to blaming German babies most recently born for the Holocaust. In other words, it is wholly inaccurate.
-- Kulturvultur 04:46, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
You are not right. It is not the question to blame somebody, but to describe the term as exactly as possible. At present, only one point of view, or one of several definitions is described. We should at least discern between (1) the counter-reformation as a movement within the catholic church and (2) the counter-reformation as a historical period. -- M.m.h 13:48, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the following statement, as it was tagged "citation needed" for several months.
If anyone can find a source to back up this statement, feel free to re-add it. — An gr If you've written a quality article... 18:32, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Can we expand Counter-Reformation#Spiritual Movements. I believe it's necessary for that's short it provides very little information. You only said about that Spirituali, but that there are so many other movements have sprung up, including those seen on the introduction part of the article. - Pika ten10 ( talk) 06:38, 5 January 2008 (UTC) Well, I expanded. The Spirituali had according to the Wikipedia article here, Zero influence, so why include them? I could name 100 persons equally unimportant at that time -- Ambrosius007 ( talk) 14:09, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm surprised that there's nothing in the article about Counter-Reformation painting or other art forms except music, or the wider cultural project of the Counter-Reformation. There is a separate entry on The Reformation and art which discusses both Protestant and Catholic art, but perhaps there should be a brief summary in this article. I added a reference to the "See also" at the bottom, but that's not a substitute for a proper mention of visual arts, literature, etc, in the article body. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.172.19.20 ( talk) 17:41, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
There should be something more here. -- Secisek ( talk) 19:07, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Being a "protestant", I cannot avoid criticise the idiotic term "counter-reformation". OK, a reformation to counter reformations? The best way to counter-reform is to refuse to do anything... Isn't it instead a reformation in parallel, inspired by (the bad sides, mostly) of protestant reformation? This is my criticism, but shouldn't the name of the article be "Roman-Catholic Revival"? Counter-reformation seems to be a bad term, since it gives the false reactionary impression about a constructive and progressive spiritual work. (??) Said: Rursus ☻ 09:33, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, Johnbod, it might or might not be idiotic, but since you seem to have serious difficulties expressing yourself in English, you hardly seem the right person to pass judgement on a question of terminology. I also notice that most European languages use a similar term: Controriforma in Italian, Contrarreforma in Spanish, Gegenreformation in German, Contre-Réforme in French. It seems both firmly and widely established. Campolongo ( talk) 15:00, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no move. JPG-GR ( talk) 02:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Counter-Reformation → Catholic Reformation — I see that this has been discussed here before, but it has been a while. In my experience, Catholic Reformation is the scholarly norm; rejecting the earlier understanding (mostly originating among 19th protestant scholastic historians) that the reforms of Trent and the Jesuits were entirely reactionary. I realize that this scholarly consensus is not necessarily reflected in online usage (i.e., g-hits), but most online sources are based on the 19th/early 20th cent. scholarship that has passed into the public domain. Pastordavid ( talk) 18:28, 15 June 2008 (UTC) — Pastordavid ( talk) 18:28, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions."In my experience, Catholic Reformation is the scholarly norm." Sources please? Also, while the scholarly norm may have changed, an encyclopedia should reflect more general usage for a wider audience. — AjaxSmack 03:21, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Some sources, collapsed for readability
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That one of your cited sources reads: "Counter-Reformation...By convention, this process is known as the Counter-Reformation, though some scholars prefer Catholic Reformation" seems to support the current title for the article. Cf. some scholars prefer the War for Southern Independence for the less accurate and POV American Civil War but Wikipedia opts for the common name. — AjaxSmack 04:39, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Revision as of 17:55, 26 February 2009 (edit) (undo) 75.165.18.28 (talk)
Removing the unsourced text: "In the end of the Reformation Martian Luther announced, at his death bed, that they were better off under the church."
As it has nothing to do with the article, and a reasonably sourced blog entry denies it: http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2007/01/did-luther-recant-on-his-deathbed.html
FlowRate ( talk) 03:20, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
Leaving the title "Counter Reformation" on the pretext that it is "commonly used" is equivalent to naming an article "America" instead of "The United States of America", "Flu" instead of "Influenza", or "Aryan" instead of "Indo-European"...
To start with, the Protestant Reformation is itself a misnomer. A "reform" in any community, society, or organization is something initiated by existing leadership, using existing channels, in accordance with existing rules - e.g. Catholic Reformation this article deals with, Gorbachev's reforms in the USSR, Deng Xiaoping's reforms in China, healthcare reforms made by governments, education reforms etc. But when some lower-ranking members of any organization claim authority and take things into their own hands locally, capture buildings, expulse their superiors etc - this is should be called a mutiny, rebelion, etc. What if someone today enters, say, a City Hall, throws out all the officials and starts issuing "reforms"? Will we consider that guy a "reformer"??? Thus, correct names would be "Protestant Revolt" and "Catholic Reformation". But even though Protestants incorrectly (as discussed above) called their movement a "Reformation", it should not prevent us from accurately describing the events of this article as a "Catholic Reformation", for the second wrong will not make things right.
Wikipedia should be primarily concerned with its titles be as accurate and as descriptive as possible, and not use titles generated by old-days political propaganda, just because they are "popular", especially as it is possible for everyone searching for "Counter Reformation" to be directed to "Catholic Reformation". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vox Veritatae ( talk • contribs) 10:53, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
The Wikopedia article on the counter-reformation must include a major section on the attacks by Catholics on Protestants. The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary defines "counter-reformation" as "... the movement in the Church of Rome which followed on the Prostetant Reformation." This sense of the term is wider than and not synonymous with The Catholic Revival or the Catholic Reform as the first line of the article suggests. The Oxford definition certainly reflects the approach taken in my university course on European history. I fear that the authors in the WikiProject Catholicism are slanting the article towards the views of the Roman Catholic Church. This is a disservice to the entire Wikopedia undertaking. 24.108.224.158 ( talk) 19:31, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
In Council of Trent Section, it says: "as epistle of st. James states...", is St. james stands for Authorized King James Version for Bible? if so why it is not linked to the specified page? also where is the citation?, which epistle?, the number of chapter and sentence?? thx Wafaashohdy ( talk) 11:24, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
There are references in the article to devotional, observantine, and legalist traditions, but these are not defined. The links are to either to dictionary definitions of devotion and legalism, or to Franciscans in the case of observantine (an article in which the word "observantine" does not occur). What are these words referring to in the context of this article? If observantine is a synonym for Fransiscan, I don't understand what is the specifically Fransiscan influence on the development of the Jesuits. Underalms ( talk) 16:40, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
While I realize that this article has decided to limit itself greatly with the consensus holding that the counter-reformation title should be retained, it nonetheless is true that part of the reason catholic reformation is currently favoured is that the movement to change the church didn't merely start at trent but began even before the council of trent. this is no less evident than the changes in piety in spain, where the reformation itself ended up having little effect. To that end I question why the inquisition isn't even mentioned in this article when it is an integral part of the catholic reformation. indeed it wasn't just a political activity but also combined spiritual movements and an increase in popular piety which fought against many of the abuses the reformation reacted against.
Aquahelper ( talk) 14:43, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
If work on the calendar causes a scientific revolution, then the calendrical work of the Babylonians and Egyptians must have done so in 3,000 B.C. The Maya of Central America did some work on the calendar without starting a scientific revolution. There is a feeble attempt at sarcasm in the article, from James Burke and Kchishol1970. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.176.252.226 ( talk) 13:01, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
It seems to me that LeRoy Froom may not be a reliable source for this article. He is quoted as writing that preterism and futurism were used as ruses by Jesuits to argue with Protestants during this time period. However, Wikipedia lists preterism as developed in the 3rd century, and futurism not developed until the 20th century. The latter (article) does not seem related to theology.
Froom is a Seventh Day Adventist. That religion is listed as believing (among other things) that: "(a) the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon; (b) the pope is the Antichrist; (c) in the last days, Sunday worship will be "the mark of the beast.."
Perhaps a less-biased and more reliable source can be found to replace him? Student7 ( talk) 23:21, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
Froom is reliable. His WP page quotes several book reviews which state that despite his SDA views, his books are invaluable resources for religious and church historians. Froom documents, with quotes and photos of documents, Jesuit sources that show that Preterism and Futurism were developed for the Counter-Reformation. Preterism does have its seeds in the 3rd century, but it was not fully developed and named Preterism until the 16 century specifically to counter the protestant reformation. The wikilink to Futurism should be changed to Futurism (Christianity). Those who read Froom know that his works are exhaustive and largely unbiased. -- RoyBurtonson ( talk) 05:23, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
I'm being flattering to Rome in calling it a flop, the counter-reformation didn't even get to leave a scratch (: — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.65.142.56 ( talk) 07:05, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
I looked at the reliable sources and find "Roman Catholic" is used without any problems as a standard term. I browsed the titles in some self-identified Catholic scholarly journals to demonstrate this: 1) "Faith and Leadership: The Papacy and the Roman Catholic Church" in Catholic Historical Review. (Autumn 2015); 2) "The Feast Of Corpus Christi In Mikulov, Moravia: Strategies Of Roman Catholic Counter-Reform (1579-86)" in Catholic Historical Review (Oct 2010); 3) "Divided Friends: Portraits of the Roman Catholic Modernist Crisis in the United States." in U.S. Catholic Historian (Fall 2013); 4) "The church and the seer: Veronica Lueken, the Bayside movement, and the Roman Catholic hierarchy" in American Catholic Studies (Fall 2012); 5) "Incompatible with God's Design: A History of the Women's Ordination Movement in the U.S. Roman Catholic Church." Catholic Historical Review (Oct 2013); 6) "The Rise and Fall of Triumph: The History of a Radical Roman Catholic Magazine, 1966-1976." Catholic Historical Review (Spring 2015); 7) "Mary, star of hope: Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary in the United States from 1854 to 2010, as seen through the lens of Roman Catholic Marian congregational song." American Catholic Studies (Spring 2013); 8) "Roman Catholic Ecclesiastics In English North America, 1610-58: A Comparative Assessment" CCHA Study Sessions (Canadian Catholic Historical Association). 1999; 9) "Gender, Catholicism, and Spirituality: Women and the Roman Catholic Church in Britain and Europe, 1200-1900." American Catholic Studies (Fall 2012); 10) "Master'S Theses And Doctoral Dissertations On Roman Catholic History In The United States: A Selected Bibliography" U.S. Catholic Historian (Jan 1987). Rjensen ( talk) 10:01, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 13:05, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Counter-Reformation's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "britannica.com":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 20:41, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
There should be a section devoted to the title itself. I'm not not suggesting changing the title, only that the historiography of the term 'Counter-Reformation' and the field needs to be explained. It should show that the field originated within German scholarship which considered this 16th century movement to be a reaction to the Protestant Reformers, but that that view is no longer the predominate view amongst scholars of this movement.
For example, the opening paragraph cites a 180 year old text to define the parameters of the field: Der geschichtliche Ablauf der Auswanderung aus dem Zillertal. In: 1837-auswanderer.de. Zillertaler Auswanderer 1837. Abgerufen am 11. Oktober 2016.). This citation gives the original view of the field, but today is anachronistic.
I am going to put something together. I'll post it here, wait a bit to see if there are any comments, then add it to the article.
German historians in the 19th century coined the term 'Counter-Reformation' to describe a reforming movement within the Catholic Church in the 16th. The consensus at that time was that this movement originated as a response to the challenges of the Protestant Reformers (e.g. Martin Luther and Ulrich Zwingli) in the early decades of the 16t century. Following the writings of the Reformers themselves, this historiography held that the Catholic Church (ca. 1520) was corrupt and badly in need of reform. Luther began opened a path towards reform that attacked abuses and in response the Catholic Church began its own program of reform. The historians called this program the 'Counter-Reformation.'
This historiography remained the consensus within the Anglo-American and German historical academies. Scholars in the 1950s seriously began to question this reading of history. Over the next 20 years, historians, such as John Olin (1969), studying the Catholic Church in the 16th century began to use the term 'Catholic Reformation' in place of 'Counter Reformation'; however, there was no consensus to change the terminology. Between the 1960s and the present day, a number of factors have led to the rejection of the 19th century concept of the 'counter-Reformation'. One important factor has been periodization. Historians of the Catholic Church argued that limiting the beginning of the 'Counter-Reformation' to the start of the years after the Council of Trent (1545-1563) ignored important movements of Catholic reform such as: Conciliarism, the observant movement within religious orders, a renewed focus on the bible, the Brethren of Common Life, reformers such as Erasmus, and new spiritual trends that emphasized a closer personal relationship with God rather than a ritualistic faith.
A second factor contributing to the reappraisal was the reexamination of the concept of 'abuse'. Historians in the second half of the 20th century realized that the abuses that concerned Luther (mandatory fast days, an emphasis on the process of sanctification at the cost of the moment of justification) and Catholic reformers (lax episcopal oversight of dioceses and pluralism) were not the same abuses written about by historians such as Jean Delumeau (the continued and widespread existence of pre-Christian/pagan folk religion and practice).
The debate over terminology was summed up by John O'Malley in Trent and All That: Renaming Catholicism in the Early Modern Era, published 2000. He examined multiple possible terms to describe the Catholic Church's actions in the years between 1400 and 1600 and examined the faults and benefits of each. Safinski ( talk) 20:48, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for your reply. Footnotes will be forthcoming. Can you clarify some things for me? Do you mean that the discussions I brought up have "little trace" in the art-history context and that 15th century art-trends are unhelpful, or do you mean a larger context? I do academic writing, not wikipedia writing, so the wikipedia citation practices still baffle me. Do I have to cite 19th century German sources, can I use 20th century English sources that discuss 19th century German sources? Safinski ( talk) 21:57, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
It's wonderfully clever to package all this up in a single sentence, but to anyone who isn't cramming for the next midterm, after hearing all these terms bandied about in endless permutations and combinations in dull lectures for half a semester, it reads like a grad-school crib sheet.
Key events of the period include: the Council of Trent (1545–63); the excommunication of Elizabeth I (1570), the codification of the uniform Roman Rite Mass (1570), and the Battle of Lepanto (1571), occurring during the pontificate of Pius V; the construction of the Gregorian observatory in Rome, the founding of the Gregorian University, the adoption of the Gregorian calendar, and the Jesuit China mission of Matteo Ricci, all under Pope Gregory XIII (r. 1572–1585); the French Wars of Religion; the Long Turkish War and the execution of Giordano Bruno in 1600, under Pope Clement VIII; the birth of the Lyncean Academy of the Papal States, of which the main figure was Galileo Galilei (later put on trial); the final phases of the Thirty Years' War (1618–48) during the pontificates of Urban VIII and Innocent X; and the formation of the last Holy League by Innocent XI during the Great Turkish War (1683–1699).
Check this micro-fragment out:
the birth of the Lyncean Academy of the Papal States, of which the main figure was Galileo Galilei (later put on trial [under XXX?])
Uniquely not under any particular pontiff, I guess because the birth of the Lyncean Academy, taken together, lacks a clean overlap with the revolving papal door.
In this compacted format, it's very hard for anyone to wade in to edit, to clarify such an omission, whether originally deliberate or otherwise. Not the right register for Wikipedia, IMO. — MaxEnt 17:34, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
I think sentence in the current lead needs improvement: "the Counter-Reformation was a comprehensive effort composed of apologetic and polemical documents and ecclesiastical configuration as decreed by the Council of Trent. " Apart from the odd phrasing, I don't think it summarizes the article: what "ecclesiastical configuration" changed because of Trent? And it makes the Counter-Reformation into ivory tower thing, rather than something that had devotional and theological impact.
One thing about Trent, and the Counter-Reformation, was that it had two threads: one was acting on the same backlog of needed reforms that fed the Reformation, the other was specific responses to the theology of the Reformers (not always contra, but sometimes pro.) I think it would be better to couch the Counter-Reformation in that way. Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 04:17, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
I am adding a Terminology section, and moved some material into it. This what the Reformation article has, and it is a good approach to handle controversial issues which come down to different definitions used by different groups. Rather than the article coming down in favour of one definition, it exposes that some experts say X and some say Y: this gives NPOV by providing balance.
When we look at many of the discussions above, many would have been better handled by a terminology section. The issue is too complex and fraught to be left to the lead, or to be buried near the bottom Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 04:45, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
I have reverted a recent change to the lead.
The cited paper might be used in a paragraph in the body, in some section on architecture, to mention that in the 1560s, Popes improved Rome's sanitation and water system (work started in the 1400s), as Rome had been running out of water and they wanted Rome to be beautiful and glorious. But it is not suitable as a justification for dumbing down the the lead.
That being said, I understand if someone thinks the current word "resurgence" does not give the whole picture. Perhaps "resurgence, reform and reaction" might be a better summary? Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 12:25, 21 October 2023 (UTC)