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This article presents factually incorrect information about Coriolis. More than nearly any physics phenomenon, Coriolis seems to be shrouded in anecdotal explanations that have nothing at all to do with Coriolis, and this "Eotvos = vertical Coriolis" is one that is repeated constantly. And yet in one minute at a white board, Coriolis and Eotvos are easily shown to be discrete unrelated phenomenon. Just because they both act in the same direction (+Z with an eastward velocity, -Z with a westward velocity, does not mean they are the same or even related.
Imagine I am shooting a bullet to the east at the equator. My intended sightline from Rifle to Target creates a linear vector RT. The eastward rotation of the earth also imposes an inertial vector that is tangential to my location on earth, and thus is ever so slightly inclined upward in relation to vector RT. The net vector that becomes my resulting sightline is the sum of RT and this inertia vector I, or I+RT. THIS is Coriolis and will make my bullet strike about 3.6 inches high on a typical 1,000 yard eastward shot and about 3.6 inches low on a typical 1,000 yard westward shot.
Completely separate and unrelated to this is the Eotvos phenomenon. Eastward or westward velocity will be higher (east) or lower (west) relative to the center of the earth's mass. This increases (east) or reduces (west) the perceived centrifugal force, which is actually just a reduction (east) or increase (west) net gravitational force G. This means my ballistic computation of the correct superelevation that creates a trajectory arc that is subtended by vector RT will be slightly off because it assumes a constant for G. This means my bullet will arrive a tiny bit high firing east and a tiny bit low firing west. In my example above this G error may be +/- a half inch or an inch at these 1,000 yard times of flight. But this is NOT Coriolis and is unrelated in every way to Coriolis.
SkyKing36 ( talk) 00:56, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
The "cannon on turntable" section is mentioned, but does not exist in the article. Darkman101 ( talk) 00:23, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
I came here to add an article on the subject of this section (which I did) but found this section to be a mess for many reasons. I have attempted to clean it up a bit. RobP ( talk) 19:20, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
The first sentence is "In physics, the Coriolis force is an inertial or fictitious force" In meteorology, the Coriolis force is an inertial term in the expression of the horizontal dynamics. It looks like an inertial force but it has just the formulation of an inertial force.
You wrote "The (inertial) force affecting the motion of air "sliding" over the Earth's surface" which is a well known analogy, yes an analogy. The truth is that air is not sliding, it is constrained by the ambient hydrostatics and Earth sphericity+rotation. The exact statement, without the analogy, is: "The true force affecting an air parcel that is forced to move horizontally over the Earth's surface"
I suppose that only a very very very few people remarked that, but it is pretty evident that the impossibility of cyclones to be filled (geostrophic approximation) can not be due to geometry and inertia, but due to a true opposing force involving ambient hydrostatics and Earth sphericity+rotation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a01:e0a:9d2:3e20:c540:bf51:1a8b:5496 ( talk) 10:11, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
The direction of the ball from the point of view of an observer as moving from the thrower is described here as going in the opposite sense of motion to that of the turntable (or carroussel). But when altitude winds move northwards from the equator they go eastwards, pushed by coriolis force (and would tend to go round in a clockwise manner if not diverted and reversed by presure gradients that exist on the borders of depressions when moving north). Wouldn't it then go further than the thrower (like the texan boy tossing a paperplane northwards to Nebraska but which lands in Delaware*) instead of apparently marking a delay relative to the motion of the carroussel like is showed here ? To me the curves represented on this page would only be right if the paperplane of the boy landed in california*.. ??? I might be completely mistaken, thanks in advance for your help.
Samoth Yallavec'h ( talk) 14:31, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
(Context: I am a non-mathematician, non-physics major that nonetheless uses Wikipedia to gain better understanding of a wide variety of topics.)
The Intuitive Explanation section should be written such that the explanation is accessible to anyone with a basic knowledge of science, but, to be honest, most people do not have the math to understand the preceding sections and so may get discouraged before they even get this far. The graphic at the beginning of the article is wonderful to show the inertial force. A second animation depicting the effects of the inertial force on a long-range object traveling from the equator towards a pole (or from a middle latitude towards the nearer pole would be great in the introduction. I don’t believe that graphic and the brief explanation would interrupt the introduction too much. That way, the Intuitive Section could be deleted. Comments appreciated. SmokeyShyla ( talk) 16:41, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
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Coriolis force article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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This article presents factually incorrect information about Coriolis. More than nearly any physics phenomenon, Coriolis seems to be shrouded in anecdotal explanations that have nothing at all to do with Coriolis, and this "Eotvos = vertical Coriolis" is one that is repeated constantly. And yet in one minute at a white board, Coriolis and Eotvos are easily shown to be discrete unrelated phenomenon. Just because they both act in the same direction (+Z with an eastward velocity, -Z with a westward velocity, does not mean they are the same or even related.
Imagine I am shooting a bullet to the east at the equator. My intended sightline from Rifle to Target creates a linear vector RT. The eastward rotation of the earth also imposes an inertial vector that is tangential to my location on earth, and thus is ever so slightly inclined upward in relation to vector RT. The net vector that becomes my resulting sightline is the sum of RT and this inertia vector I, or I+RT. THIS is Coriolis and will make my bullet strike about 3.6 inches high on a typical 1,000 yard eastward shot and about 3.6 inches low on a typical 1,000 yard westward shot.
Completely separate and unrelated to this is the Eotvos phenomenon. Eastward or westward velocity will be higher (east) or lower (west) relative to the center of the earth's mass. This increases (east) or reduces (west) the perceived centrifugal force, which is actually just a reduction (east) or increase (west) net gravitational force G. This means my ballistic computation of the correct superelevation that creates a trajectory arc that is subtended by vector RT will be slightly off because it assumes a constant for G. This means my bullet will arrive a tiny bit high firing east and a tiny bit low firing west. In my example above this G error may be +/- a half inch or an inch at these 1,000 yard times of flight. But this is NOT Coriolis and is unrelated in every way to Coriolis.
SkyKing36 ( talk) 00:56, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
The "cannon on turntable" section is mentioned, but does not exist in the article. Darkman101 ( talk) 00:23, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
I came here to add an article on the subject of this section (which I did) but found this section to be a mess for many reasons. I have attempted to clean it up a bit. RobP ( talk) 19:20, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
The first sentence is "In physics, the Coriolis force is an inertial or fictitious force" In meteorology, the Coriolis force is an inertial term in the expression of the horizontal dynamics. It looks like an inertial force but it has just the formulation of an inertial force.
You wrote "The (inertial) force affecting the motion of air "sliding" over the Earth's surface" which is a well known analogy, yes an analogy. The truth is that air is not sliding, it is constrained by the ambient hydrostatics and Earth sphericity+rotation. The exact statement, without the analogy, is: "The true force affecting an air parcel that is forced to move horizontally over the Earth's surface"
I suppose that only a very very very few people remarked that, but it is pretty evident that the impossibility of cyclones to be filled (geostrophic approximation) can not be due to geometry and inertia, but due to a true opposing force involving ambient hydrostatics and Earth sphericity+rotation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a01:e0a:9d2:3e20:c540:bf51:1a8b:5496 ( talk) 10:11, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
The direction of the ball from the point of view of an observer as moving from the thrower is described here as going in the opposite sense of motion to that of the turntable (or carroussel). But when altitude winds move northwards from the equator they go eastwards, pushed by coriolis force (and would tend to go round in a clockwise manner if not diverted and reversed by presure gradients that exist on the borders of depressions when moving north). Wouldn't it then go further than the thrower (like the texan boy tossing a paperplane northwards to Nebraska but which lands in Delaware*) instead of apparently marking a delay relative to the motion of the carroussel like is showed here ? To me the curves represented on this page would only be right if the paperplane of the boy landed in california*.. ??? I might be completely mistaken, thanks in advance for your help.
Samoth Yallavec'h ( talk) 14:31, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
(Context: I am a non-mathematician, non-physics major that nonetheless uses Wikipedia to gain better understanding of a wide variety of topics.)
The Intuitive Explanation section should be written such that the explanation is accessible to anyone with a basic knowledge of science, but, to be honest, most people do not have the math to understand the preceding sections and so may get discouraged before they even get this far. The graphic at the beginning of the article is wonderful to show the inertial force. A second animation depicting the effects of the inertial force on a long-range object traveling from the equator towards a pole (or from a middle latitude towards the nearer pole would be great in the introduction. I don’t believe that graphic and the brief explanation would interrupt the introduction too much. That way, the Intuitive Section could be deleted. Comments appreciated. SmokeyShyla ( talk) 16:41, 13 July 2023 (UTC)