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I notice that a certain name was removed and replaced by another. The original name is back in the news again, as since the grandstand that he was fighting against is now being demolished for rebuilding, he intends to take up the cheese cudgel again.
Coon cheese next on anti-racism hit-list
September 26, 2008, 1:01 pm
http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/latest/5042301/coon-cheese-antiracism-hitlist/
I'll also comment that there has been a large amount of vandalism against this page, I expect more in future.
FoolesTroupe ( talk) 13:37, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Process for ripening cheese.
Document Type and Number:. United States Patent 1579196.
Inventors:. William, Coon Edward.
Publication Date:. 03/30/1926
www.freepatentsonline.com/1579196.html
FoolesTroupe ( talk) 13:55, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
It is notable that the official history of Coon cheese says that the brandname was used in America as early as 1870. This weakens the argument that it was named after Edward Coon and destroys the argument that American uses of "coon" are irrelevant. As to the inventor, the history makes the strange comment that he was not an academic which seems to be correcting an earlier company legend...
Right or wrong, the allegation should be fairly dealt with and not dismissed vehemently as it is here.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 09:45, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
It should be noted that both the "C" and "N" words, while apparently of common American usage, were rarely if ever used in Australia, several other words (which I won't mention here, as they were often used derogatively) being the norm (I am a Mature Age Australian Citizen). The Australian Courts have rejected several previous approaches against both the Cheese (C word), and name of a Grandstand (N word) in Toowoomba.
FoolesTroupe ( talk) 08:29, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
maturin ( talk) 02:16, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
Note: "The case was brought to court by Stephen Hagan, an ATSIC regional councillor from Toowoomba, west of Brisbane, who has also campaigned unsuccessfully for a ban on the name Coon cheese." from the link
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/03/19/1016519809826.html
I don't know where the name "Sir Tomas Jackson" came from except blatant (humourous) vandalism - the name seems obviously a joke to me (Aussie) as very few such Commissioners would have been Knighted! Indeed part of a significant area of complaint was that such individuals were often excluded from 'normal society'.
I note that a Google of that name reveals
http://au.messages.yahoo.com/news/top-stories/1256880?p=last which has been deleted - nothing else relvant. A search of Wiki under both Sir Tomas Jackson & Sir Thomas Jackson reveals nothing relevant to the time period.
I will replace the name if no other comments and/or supporting verification are made.
FoolesTroupe (
talk)
08:43, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
There hasn't actually been a court case regarding Coon cheese yet - the Age article says that Stephen Hagan 'campaigned' about the name but only brought a court case against the 'Nigger Brown' sign.
BedeWilson ( talk) 14:13, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I found this scan of a page from a 1923 edition of The Journal & Republican, Lowville, NY which has an article announcing that E.W. Coon of Philadelphia, maker & shipper of cheese, sold 5 milk plants to the Dairyman's League Co-operative Association. This strikes me as a pretty strong rebuttal to Stephen Hagan's assertion. I'm not sure how to work it into the article so I'm leaving that to soemone else. http://fultonhistory.com/Process%20small/Newspapers/Lowvile%20Ny%20Rebulican/1923/Newspaper%20Lowville%20NY%20Journal%20Republican%201923%20-%20%28294%29.PDF —Preceding unsigned comment added by The axel ( talk • contribs) 01:27, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
In case someone should delete it, I have added the following information on the Coon family, which is from John Harvey Treat, The Treat family: a genealogy of Trott, Tratt, and Treat for fifteen generations, and four hundred and fifty years in England and America (1893), pp. 319-320 online here, and the Official Gazette of the United States Patent Office, vol. 181 (1912), p. 535. Moonraker2 ( talk) 07:16, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
E. W. Coon was the grandson of Amherst Coon (1795-1877), a farmer born in Russia, New York, who married Sally Betsey Treat in 1822. His sons Mattison (b. 1823) and Ephraim Coon (b. 1832) were described in 1893 as having been in the butter and cheese business together at 29, South Water Street, Philadelphia, for more than thirty years. Ephraim's son Edward Willie Coon was born on July 30, 1871, and had taken out at least one cheese patent by 1912.
No, you're wrong. You simply cannot say, "On that basis alone the supposed racist aspect is invalid". Just because the name had no racist origin you cannot conclude there is no racist aspect. Did the company make a pun on the name as was the case with "Birdseye" or "Greenseas". Did they really produce packaging with a stereotypical grinning "nigger"? As for your comparison with the "Nigger" Brown controversy, you have really defeated your own argument. E S Brown wasn't dark-skinned. He was called "Nigger" as a joke based on his surname. If the epithet "Nigger" is now considered racist, the making puns about coons/racoons/blackface is all the more. Either the joke was made, or it wasn't. Let's be honest.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 11:05, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
This article is making business history claims based on original research, there are few secondary sources. 60.242.186.80 ( talk) 13:33, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
The article gives EW Coon's middle name as both William and Willie. Which is it?
-- PaulxSA ( talk) 19:54, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
There are several issues with this article
— Brian Halvorsen ( talk) 01:52, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
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@ Laterthanyouthink: I think you'll find the it was ALL CAPS, because that's how it's usually written, as "COON" and will be, "CHEER". See " Introducing CHEER heese", for example. Regards, 220 of ßorg 11:27, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved per WP:SNOW. Please wait to file another move request until after the change in branding has been done and, more importantly, picked up by reliable secondary sources. ( non-admin closure) ( t · c) buidhe 00:02, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Coon cheese → Cheer cheese – In line with the change of brand name effective July 2021 this page will require moving to the new name. As per usual move practices a redirect will be automatically created from the current name. This notice is posted in discussion for the reason that a move may not be appropriate until this time, and that this move may be considered controversial by some users. Matthew5of9 ( talk) 13:41, 13 January 2021 (UTC) Matthew5of9 ( talk) 13:41, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
Hi
AussieWikiDan. No worries about making further changes - I had not yet fully completed reviewing mine (I needed to return with fresh eyes), and I also had reservations about how or whether to express the past history of the company website. The company has since withdrawn its story, though, so I'm not sure that it's correct to quote it without a rider of some time - perhaps a footnote? But did you mean to remove the citation at the end of the first para. in the Naming controversy section? As I understand it, each paragraph (at least) needs a citation, according to
WP:CITE.
Two other things though, which I'll post here for comment and perhaps other editors could offer their opinions and suggestions?
Hi Laterthanyouthink, thanks for the information and listening to my feedback. All the best with the additions and it looks good about the new draft. AussieWikiDan ( talk) 15:12, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
See recent reverts. IMO it is relevant and notable that Hagan, an academic and one of the main protagonists in the debate, has published a book. It is not being used as a source (although I would imagine that it provides more relevant information), is mentioned in multiple sources - mainly paywalled unfortunately - and is clearly an indicator of the strength of feeling as well as the fact that there is research to indicate the lack of relationship of Coon to the cheese. I would like to hear from other editors on this. As always, happy to accept consensus view. Laterthanyouthink ( talk) 03:14, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
Back to this section's subject. If one examines the earliest history of this article, it seems that without Stephen Hagan's advocacy, there might not be an article. Any web search for "Coon cheese" is overwhelmed by the name controversy. Now that Hagan has published a book on the matter which has received some coverage, it would be amiss of Wikipedia not to mention it in the section "Naming controversy". Laterthanyouthink's edit from 4 February ought to be re-instated. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 03:42, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
I'm making this note on the talk page because I think it needs to be noted somewhere, as so many secondary and tertiary sources keep regurgitating this term. (I had added it as a footnote to the article, but it was removed, with some justification, but I thought it worthwhile noting for future reference.)
References
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I notice that a certain name was removed and replaced by another. The original name is back in the news again, as since the grandstand that he was fighting against is now being demolished for rebuilding, he intends to take up the cheese cudgel again.
Coon cheese next on anti-racism hit-list
September 26, 2008, 1:01 pm
http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/latest/5042301/coon-cheese-antiracism-hitlist/
I'll also comment that there has been a large amount of vandalism against this page, I expect more in future.
FoolesTroupe ( talk) 13:37, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Process for ripening cheese.
Document Type and Number:. United States Patent 1579196.
Inventors:. William, Coon Edward.
Publication Date:. 03/30/1926
www.freepatentsonline.com/1579196.html
FoolesTroupe ( talk) 13:55, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
It is notable that the official history of Coon cheese says that the brandname was used in America as early as 1870. This weakens the argument that it was named after Edward Coon and destroys the argument that American uses of "coon" are irrelevant. As to the inventor, the history makes the strange comment that he was not an academic which seems to be correcting an earlier company legend...
Right or wrong, the allegation should be fairly dealt with and not dismissed vehemently as it is here.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 09:45, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
It should be noted that both the "C" and "N" words, while apparently of common American usage, were rarely if ever used in Australia, several other words (which I won't mention here, as they were often used derogatively) being the norm (I am a Mature Age Australian Citizen). The Australian Courts have rejected several previous approaches against both the Cheese (C word), and name of a Grandstand (N word) in Toowoomba.
FoolesTroupe ( talk) 08:29, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
maturin ( talk) 02:16, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
Note: "The case was brought to court by Stephen Hagan, an ATSIC regional councillor from Toowoomba, west of Brisbane, who has also campaigned unsuccessfully for a ban on the name Coon cheese." from the link
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/03/19/1016519809826.html
I don't know where the name "Sir Tomas Jackson" came from except blatant (humourous) vandalism - the name seems obviously a joke to me (Aussie) as very few such Commissioners would have been Knighted! Indeed part of a significant area of complaint was that such individuals were often excluded from 'normal society'.
I note that a Google of that name reveals
http://au.messages.yahoo.com/news/top-stories/1256880?p=last which has been deleted - nothing else relvant. A search of Wiki under both Sir Tomas Jackson & Sir Thomas Jackson reveals nothing relevant to the time period.
I will replace the name if no other comments and/or supporting verification are made.
FoolesTroupe (
talk)
08:43, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
There hasn't actually been a court case regarding Coon cheese yet - the Age article says that Stephen Hagan 'campaigned' about the name but only brought a court case against the 'Nigger Brown' sign.
BedeWilson ( talk) 14:13, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I found this scan of a page from a 1923 edition of The Journal & Republican, Lowville, NY which has an article announcing that E.W. Coon of Philadelphia, maker & shipper of cheese, sold 5 milk plants to the Dairyman's League Co-operative Association. This strikes me as a pretty strong rebuttal to Stephen Hagan's assertion. I'm not sure how to work it into the article so I'm leaving that to soemone else. http://fultonhistory.com/Process%20small/Newspapers/Lowvile%20Ny%20Rebulican/1923/Newspaper%20Lowville%20NY%20Journal%20Republican%201923%20-%20%28294%29.PDF —Preceding unsigned comment added by The axel ( talk • contribs) 01:27, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
In case someone should delete it, I have added the following information on the Coon family, which is from John Harvey Treat, The Treat family: a genealogy of Trott, Tratt, and Treat for fifteen generations, and four hundred and fifty years in England and America (1893), pp. 319-320 online here, and the Official Gazette of the United States Patent Office, vol. 181 (1912), p. 535. Moonraker2 ( talk) 07:16, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
E. W. Coon was the grandson of Amherst Coon (1795-1877), a farmer born in Russia, New York, who married Sally Betsey Treat in 1822. His sons Mattison (b. 1823) and Ephraim Coon (b. 1832) were described in 1893 as having been in the butter and cheese business together at 29, South Water Street, Philadelphia, for more than thirty years. Ephraim's son Edward Willie Coon was born on July 30, 1871, and had taken out at least one cheese patent by 1912.
No, you're wrong. You simply cannot say, "On that basis alone the supposed racist aspect is invalid". Just because the name had no racist origin you cannot conclude there is no racist aspect. Did the company make a pun on the name as was the case with "Birdseye" or "Greenseas". Did they really produce packaging with a stereotypical grinning "nigger"? As for your comparison with the "Nigger" Brown controversy, you have really defeated your own argument. E S Brown wasn't dark-skinned. He was called "Nigger" as a joke based on his surname. If the epithet "Nigger" is now considered racist, the making puns about coons/racoons/blackface is all the more. Either the joke was made, or it wasn't. Let's be honest.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 11:05, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
This article is making business history claims based on original research, there are few secondary sources. 60.242.186.80 ( talk) 13:33, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
The article gives EW Coon's middle name as both William and Willie. Which is it?
-- PaulxSA ( talk) 19:54, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
There are several issues with this article
— Brian Halvorsen ( talk) 01:52, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Coon cheese. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:39, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
@ Laterthanyouthink: I think you'll find the it was ALL CAPS, because that's how it's usually written, as "COON" and will be, "CHEER". See " Introducing CHEER heese", for example. Regards, 220 of ßorg 11:27, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved per WP:SNOW. Please wait to file another move request until after the change in branding has been done and, more importantly, picked up by reliable secondary sources. ( non-admin closure) ( t · c) buidhe 00:02, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Coon cheese → Cheer cheese – In line with the change of brand name effective July 2021 this page will require moving to the new name. As per usual move practices a redirect will be automatically created from the current name. This notice is posted in discussion for the reason that a move may not be appropriate until this time, and that this move may be considered controversial by some users. Matthew5of9 ( talk) 13:41, 13 January 2021 (UTC) Matthew5of9 ( talk) 13:41, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
Hi
AussieWikiDan. No worries about making further changes - I had not yet fully completed reviewing mine (I needed to return with fresh eyes), and I also had reservations about how or whether to express the past history of the company website. The company has since withdrawn its story, though, so I'm not sure that it's correct to quote it without a rider of some time - perhaps a footnote? But did you mean to remove the citation at the end of the first para. in the Naming controversy section? As I understand it, each paragraph (at least) needs a citation, according to
WP:CITE.
Two other things though, which I'll post here for comment and perhaps other editors could offer their opinions and suggestions?
Hi Laterthanyouthink, thanks for the information and listening to my feedback. All the best with the additions and it looks good about the new draft. AussieWikiDan ( talk) 15:12, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
See recent reverts. IMO it is relevant and notable that Hagan, an academic and one of the main protagonists in the debate, has published a book. It is not being used as a source (although I would imagine that it provides more relevant information), is mentioned in multiple sources - mainly paywalled unfortunately - and is clearly an indicator of the strength of feeling as well as the fact that there is research to indicate the lack of relationship of Coon to the cheese. I would like to hear from other editors on this. As always, happy to accept consensus view. Laterthanyouthink ( talk) 03:14, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
Back to this section's subject. If one examines the earliest history of this article, it seems that without Stephen Hagan's advocacy, there might not be an article. Any web search for "Coon cheese" is overwhelmed by the name controversy. Now that Hagan has published a book on the matter which has received some coverage, it would be amiss of Wikipedia not to mention it in the section "Naming controversy". Laterthanyouthink's edit from 4 February ought to be re-instated. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 03:42, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
I'm making this note on the talk page because I think it needs to be noted somewhere, as so many secondary and tertiary sources keep regurgitating this term. (I had added it as a footnote to the article, but it was removed, with some justification, but I thought it worthwhile noting for future reference.)
References