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I'm going to spin off this article into a new one, there's enough history, information, and external links to justify expanding the article more AStudent 15:33, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
We will not have an all-volunteer army. And yet, this week ---- we will have an all-volunteer army!
--Dubya's own supporters bail him out of a verbal snafu, Daytona Beach, Florida, Oct. 16, 2004
--This section should be removed. It makes no useful contribution whatsoever to improving the associated article. The guidelines for Talk pages are very explicit about the idea that Talk pages are NOT intended as forums for general discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.40.69.21 ( talk) 23:02, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
For an October 2004 deletion debate over this page see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Revival of the draft
Unfortunately, Kerry's 100 day plan has disappeared from his site. I still prefer the John Kerry forum URL I posted because it is an exact quote, obviously a cut and paste of the original. The quote is also preserved several other places on the web, just search google:
Here is a URL that references a fact sheet:
Bush in the second debate, practically did a "read my lips" that he would not implement a draft. Kerry is far more likely to implement a draft. He is a nationalist with the hubris to beleive he knows what is best for others. In addition to his "100 Day Plan to Change America" where he proposes mandatory public service to graduate from high school. He thinks everyone has a duty to serve their nation and to encourage this he proposes a system where college tuition is paid for in exchange for service. His key supporter, Ted Kennedy proposed mandatory public service back in the late 70s, perhaps they were inspired by JFK, "Ask not ...". Then look at the history of the volunteer army and the draft. Senator's Barry Goldwater and Mark Hatfield co-sponsored the bill to end the draft in 1968. Conservatives have been behind the professional army movement and critical of the quality of a conscript army, especially in this technological age. While more of a moderate than a conservative, Bush subscribes to conservative principles in this area. I can't support Bush for other reasons, but with a son that would become draft age during a 2nd Kerry term, there is no way I could support him. Bush is more predictible than Kerry, and he will avoid a draft on principle, and I also believe Bush is less likely to institute a draft based on his and Kerry's personal historys. Note that he chose to avoid the combat that Kerry thought was his "duty". Now perhaps you think that is admirable, but the problem with these "duty" types, is that not only do they think it was their duty, they think it is you and your son's duty also-- Silverback 08:13, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
page snapped from google before the purge-- Silverback 20:02, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
from the article:
An early report from the early summer of 2004 claimed that the administration of George W. Bush had authorized 27 million dollars for for investigation and preparation for reinstating conscription as early as January of 2005. A vigorous debate than ensued as to whether or not a no-draft position was feasible within the parameters of Bush's sweeping military goals. In mid-October of 2004, a separate proposal appeared for conscripting only medical personnel.
Nevertheless, the Bush administration has been criticized for implementing a "back door draft" by involuntarily extending the enlistment periods of military personnel for an additional two years after the expiration of their original commitments. 7
-- Silverback 11:35, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC) I think the first paragraph and the stricken one should go, they are minor political fluff and very POV. Perhaps the realistic provisions for a medical draft can be retained. If we are to retain the first paragraph, it should be noted that Charles Wrangel also voted against the proposal, and the list of oppenents should be made more balanced, the libertarian party, milton freidman, william F. Buckley, George W. Bush, John Kerry, hundreds of congressmen and senators, etc. The back door draft issue seems more legitimate, although in my modification, I note that I put "involuntary" in quotes. Soldeirs receive a lot of "involuntary" orders in war. In a voluntary military, the question is whether they are really "involuntary" in the usual sense, and whether they are "innocent civilians", the usual victims of a draft. Frankly, I question whether anyone can really give informed consent to yield such complete control over their lives to a government given the unpredictable nature of the future. Critics of people who change their mind midstream and refuse to follow orders, argue that they don't see how the military can work without discipline. Advocates of freedom suggest that the military get better at screening for the right kind of people, issuing orders that they will follow and paying the amounts necessary to attract and retain them.-- Silverback 11:35, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
On the first paragraph disputed paragraph, no one has really defended. It is true that there is a contingency plan for a draft. But this seems to be required by a law of Congress from several years back. So putting it at Bush's feet seems a tad unfair. Currently, the DoD, SecDef, & Pres all disavow any plans to draft doctors. [1] Removing paragraph.
I believe that the NPOV tag ought to be stricken, as Alkivar's stated concerns have been addressed. Wolfman 14:53, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Excuse me for lack of formatting, but I had to register to show this point. The article is very biased against Bush because it discusses the "Back Door Draft" twice but never once ever mentions that it is a practice done in every major conflict in United states history. Lasersailor184 15:33, 15 Feb 2006
Herewith my explanation for reverting Alkivar's latest edits:
The external links have included this one: " Dan Smith article in FCNL". I expanded " FCNL" to Friends Committee on National Legislation, but then, when I went to check the link, it turned out be a list of a whole bunch of articles. It wasn't immediately obvious what was being linked to here, or why.
The closest match I could find was this one. Although it's titled "Rock the Draft", it's more about campaign-related issues than about conscription itself. (It's about the Republican National Committee trying to intimidate Rock the Vote.) This link might belong in one of the campaign articles, but it doesn't seem to be appropriate here. I'm removing the link. If the reader should be directed to a different article on the FCNL site, the link should be restored but with a more precise URL. JamesMLane 06:52, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Removed the Hagel quote because the link-footnote does not contain it - it just goes to Wes Pruden's latest column. Certainly if a correct link can be found the quote can go back in.
Ellsworth 00:37, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
This is all probably unrescueable POV. Zeimusu 14:17, 2004 Dec 16 (UTC)
Some people feel that the draft is unfair because only males are required to register with the Selective Service, and it's only males that could potentially be drafted. The draft has been perceived by some as unfairly targeting the poor and lower middle classes. Because of college deferments, children of wealthy and upper middle class families that could afford to send them to college could avoid the draft. The fact that President Clinton had avoided military service through the use of a deferment caused controversy during his campaigns and during his time in office.
Some children of wealthy families wished to avoid a perception of avoiding military service. Those individuals would often sign up for the National Guard. The fact that some were able to use their family's connections to gain a position when spots in the guard were limited also led to a perception that the wealthy were using the National Guard to ensure that their children were assigned low risk duty in the states. This is an issue that has affected President George W. Bush - some of his critics contend that his family influence gained him a spot in what was called the Champagne unit of the Texas National Guard rather than being drafted.
Also, the draft system itself in the United States was not entirely a fair and impartial system. There have been cases where local draft boards misused their authority in the past.
While the government had instituted reforms to deal with what were perceived to be the worst abuses, some people feel that more can still be done. Others feel that any military draft is inherently unfair because only a small percentage of eligible draftees are needed at only one time. One leading opponent of military draft restoration, State Rep. Mark B. Cohen of Philadelphia, said "The draft hurts military efficiency by substituting well motivated volunteers for unmotivated draftees, undermines military pay and benefits by removing the need to attract volunteers, and creates anxiety and unrest among tens of millions of people who will never serve. It is a dangerous psuedo-solution to a non-existent problem."
The provisions for conscientious objection to the draft have also been viewed as unfairly descriminatory, favoring religious objection over non-religious objection, and favoring those who value peace and non-violence over those who value freedom. Alternative mandatory service can assuage objections based on peace and non-violence, but do nothing for those who objections arise from strongly held convictions about freedom. Many who object to the draft find it directly conflicts with the liberty clause they committed themselves to in the Pledge of Allegiance.
I believe it is a mistake to take this section out. Yes, it expresses a point of view, but it is a point of view that is necessary to understand why there has not been a draft in the United States for over 31 years, and why both Bush and Kerry, and well as the the platforms of the Republican and Democratic Parties, as well as the Liberterian and Green Parties, opposed reinstatement.
It is one thing to advocate for something; it is something else to explain the intellectual reasons why something is the way it is. Are sections of articles on the revolutionary war going to be edited so that the grievances of the American colonists not be listed for fear of a violation of NPOV? Are sections of articles on the civil war going to be edited so that views for and against the abolition of slavery not be printed for fear of a violation of NPOV? Are articles on communism, McCarthyism, Nazism, etc. going to be edited so that a reader will not be able to learn of either the appeal or repulsion that these ideologies held?
NPOV is an ideal, which, like other ideals, should be leavened with common sense. A literal all encompassing view of NPOV will lead to the destruction of Wikipedia as a valuable resource for history, political science, sociology, economics, etc.
Zulitz, 20:44, December 26, 2004 (UTC)
There is a conscription template. Shall we use it? Zeimusu 00:12, 2004 Dec 17 (UTC)
There's a reference to a 1919 Supreme Court decision but with no title, citation or link. A somewhat similar decision from 1920 is Gilbert v. Minnesota, 254 U.S. 325 (1920) (text available here). Is that the one that's meant? Regardless, I'm dubious about including any such reference, given that those cases are clearly no longer good law. For example, during the Vietnam War, the Supreme Court held that wearing a jacket saying "Fuck the Draft" was protected free speech. JamesMLane 01:40, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Apparently the courts have not ruled that conscription is not "involuntary servitude", just that other things such as powers granted in other parts of the constitution and "supreme and noble duty" (as long as "exacted" by representative bodies) outweight this particular amendement. The apropo part of the 1918 decision, which only addressed 1 line to the great questions summarily dismisses it without supporting analysis or deliberation. I quote it here:
This is basically little more than an argument from nationalism in the Hegelian/fascist style. There is no evidence this aspect of the decision was made on "legal" grounds, no consideration of legislative intent, no comparison with other forms of servitude, not even a suggestion of conflict with other parts of the constitution. They assert a "duty", without suggesting a "legal" duty, they are intruding on moral grounds better addressed by respected authorities such as Einstein, Gandhi and Rand.-- Silverback 09:22, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The sentence you quoted is, IMO, polite legalese for the following: "It's been argued that the draft violates the Thirteenth Amendment. This argument is absurd. Chattel slavery and military conscription are two completely different things, and you'd have to be an idiot to think that the Thirteenth Amendment, intended to bar the former, also barred the latter." The "unable to conceive" language doesn't mean "we're too dumb to understand the argument" or "we've decided not to consider the argument." It means, "We've considered the argument, but this decision isn't even close."
Here again, if you want to find a reputable legal scholar who says something critical of the Arver decision, that comment would at least be a candidate for inclusion.
Even noting that the Court didn't analyze the argument at length is more detail than most readers will want in an article about the draft. To say that the Court didn't spend a lot of time on the argument may be one more little rock to throw, and therefore pleasing to any reader who has an obsession with every negative thing that can possibly be said about conscription, but that doesn't make it worth including in the article. Nevertheless, in another attempt to compromise, I've tried an edit that mentions this minor fact; we can mention it, and convey the information, without devoting several lines to the full quotation.
In the certiorari decision in Holmes, Douglas's opinion commented on the constitutionality of the draft and on the more general question of granting certiorari. A few edits ago, I added a summary of what he said on the former point, which is the subject of this article. The quotation on the latter point doesn't tell the reader anything about the draft. The Supreme Court receives many more cert petitions than it can accept. They have to pick and choose. No one argues that the Court should concentrate on trivia and ignore "basic norms of the [constitutional] system".
The Justices vote according to which ones they think are important, and also according to whether they think the lower court got it right. I don't think that Douglas's quotation on that point adds anything to the reader's understanding of the draft. (Douglas, incidentally, was known for voting to grant cert quite often. If all the cert petitions that Douglas supported had been accepted, the Court would have been working off the backlog for years after his death. That's a fact that's relevant to assessing his vote to grant cert in Holmes, but I think it's too peripheral to include in an article on the draft. Because it would tend to undercut an anti-conscription point, I assume that there'll be no demand that it be included.)
I also don't see what the Rand quotation adds. As I've mentioned above, there's really no reason to cite her at all in this context. She's not a lawyer. She has no credentials for opining on a question of constitutional law. I would omit her entirely (at least from the "Legality" section). As a compromise, I'm (reluctantly) willing to say that she still thinks the draft violates the Thirteenth Amendment -- so if we say that, what does the quotation add? We've already stated that the Thirteenth Amendment prohibits "involuntary servitude". She doesn't elaborate on her reasoning beyond that. Given that there's no real reason to include her opinion in the first place, there's certainly no reason to state her opinion twice. JamesMLane 22:58, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
-- Silverback 07:24, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC) Now that I have read the rest of the opinion, I find the short passage to be representative of the quality if not the verbosity of the whole decision. Yes there are at least some cases cited and law discussed, but it is replete with leaps to conclusions justfied by no more than hyperbolic language about things which cannot be doubted or conceived, that can easily be doubted and conceived with very little effort. The inherent assumption of and deference to the perogatives of nations and sovereignty betray minds with limited analytic ability to be aware of or question their own assumptions.-- Silverback 07:24, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Silverback, marvelous job of defending the truth of the matter. I'll make a few more arguments in case anyone cares. It's obvious that the court failed to address the issue. Any idiot (except idiots with law degrees) can read the Constitution and understand it. For some reason I think it was designed that way intentionally. In order for amendments to have any effect, they must override previous articles. To believe otherwise makes the Constitution subject not to its words as written or to the wishes of its authors but to the whims of its interpreters. Clearly the authors of the 13th amendment wished to prohibit not only slavery, but any vestiges of it, no matter how ingrained. By including the prohibition of "involuntary servitude", they made the scope of the amendment as broad as possible, while still expressing the fundamental tenents of that which they found morally reprehensible: being forced to do that which one does not wish to do. In doing so, they recognized the effect this prohibition would have on the legitimate exercise of government power. They had the foresight to include an exception for that one legitimate purpose, "punishment for a crime whereof the accused shall have been duly convicted." They did not feel it necessary to permit any other acts of force by the state upon the people. Neither did Ayn Rand. And neither do I.
The court, however, seemingly too enamoured with their own role as constitutional interpreter, could not fathom any reason to limit the injurious, protested, and unnecessary exercise of ungranted state power. Well, I can think of one such reason: that the Constitution demands it. Morality demands it. Consent, as the basis of representative government, demands it.
But, while random strangers on the internet can spend hours writing pages of analysis on the 13th amendment and its effects on conscription, the US Supreme Court in their infinite legal wisdom can write little more than a single sentence devoid of meaning. To hold this sentence up as final judgement on the matter would be negligent of any American. At the least, I should hope that informing intelligent readers of its inadequacies would be germane to the mission of Wikipedia. -- Benjamindees 02:51, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Frightening news, if true....... The President has given the Selective Service System a set of readiness goals to be implemented by March 31, 2005. As part of these performance goals, the System must be ready to be fully operational within 75 days. This means we can look for the Draft to be in operation as early as June 15, 2005.
US Preparing for Military Draft in Spring 2005
The current agenda of the US federal government is to reinstate the draft in order to staff up for a protracted war on "terrorism." Pending legislation in the House and Senate (twin bills S 89 and HR 163) would time the program so the draft could begin at early as Spring 2005 -- conveniently just after the 2004 presidential election! But the administration is quietly trying to get these bills passed NOW, so our action is needed immediately. Details and links follow. If voters who currently supportU.S.aggression abroad were confronted with the possibility that their own children or grandchildren might not have a say about whether to fight, many of these same voters might have a change of mind. (Not that it should make a difference, but this plan would among other things eliminate higher education as a shelter and would not exclude women -- and Canada is no longer an option.)
I DELETED THE FOLLOWING:
Senator
Barry Goldwater proposed ending the draft during his unsuccessful
1964 campaign as the
Republican candidate for
President.
Ted Wilkes 22:26, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
Obviously the above text about the draft being reinstated by June is completely wrong, probably purposefully so. Its August now, and still no draft. Just another left wing bomb thrower. ColdFusion650
Under the section Perception of the Draft as Unfair, the article says "Also, the draft system itself in the United States was not entirely a fair and impartial system. There have been cases where local draft boards misused their authority in the past." I think this statement by itselt does not belong in the article. Examples of misused authority should be provided. Some guy 05:55, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
In 1775 the Town or Pownalborough, Maine issued a proclamation requiring "all able-bodied men resident in the town to be enlisted in the Militia: as a defensive measure given the only Court House in Maine at the time was in Pownalborough. The Town Council proclamation also listed the organization of the Militia and the names of those so "drafted". This remarkable document can be found in the Massachusetts Archives in the Town Hall records for Pownalborough. Please remember that in 1775, as with today, a "Town" in Maine includes the whole township.
Were they drafted to serve in the federal army - under Washington.? Were they required to leave the township? Did the town of Pownalborough have the authority to draft? It listed the names - all ablebodied men should have covered it, who did they not name - let me guess, the rich?
159.105.80.141 17:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
From earliest colonial times "states" often resorted to a draft to fill militia ranks, and also to help organize standing units for war service, such as during the French and Indian War.
During the Revolutionary War states often filled with quotas by resorting to a draft.
-- Al-Nofi ( talk) 14:22, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
This section (added by 67.171.144.181) is taken from a Selective Service website, and is copyrighted by them. I don't know if it is considered public domain because it is a work of the US government. I am going to delete this section until this issue is resolved. -- JW1805 16:50, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
as i understand one could buy a deferment from the draft in the civil war, also i heard a reference to such a practice during the vietnam conflict. Can anyone learned in this matter post relevant info?
I believe that you could buy your way out for $300. You could also buy out if you could get someone to go for you - ie give a poor man $100,etc to send his son or himself in your stead. In th eUnion army many young men were sent in place of their older brother - offshot of primogeniter(spelling) oldest son got the farm,etc the younger sons got the boot /hopefully a trade- usually the boot. 159.105.80.141 17:21, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
2 things. During 'nam, if you volunteered, you had a much better chance of choosing your specialty & much less chance of getting sent to the war; recall, the U.S. was deployed worldwide, especially Europe. And, doesn't "stop loss" violate contract law? One party (USG or DoD) isn't permitted to arbitrarily change the terms without the consent of the other...& damned if I'd agree to staying in Iraq after the Pres lied to the country to get it in there. Trekphiler 00:40, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
No, stop loss doesn't violate any laws. Its included in the contract. As well as the fact that most 1st termers are on 8 year contracts, 4 years active, 4 years reserve.
I posted a suggestion that Selective Service be merged into this article. Both deal with identical topics and I noted a lot of repitition between the two. Jtmichcock 14:13, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I saw where statements in the article had been placed about Clinton's draft deferments as he was attending college had been the source of controversy. If we are going to mention Clinton by name, then in the interests of balance, I think we should also mention how Bush's service in the National Guard has also attracted controversy that wealthy and powerful were able to use the National Guard to get low risk state side assingments.
JesseG 22:32, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
In the interest of being correct it should be stated that Bush was in the Air National Guard. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.193.15.52 ( talk) 04:39, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
I've always wondered this. If you already served your 4 years active duty and 4 years inactive duty, and was honorably discharged, if a draft law is passed, can you actually be redrafted into the military?
Yes, you can be, although it would have to be very bad.. Like the US mainland being invaded or the such.
There must be some WW1/WW2 and WW2/Korea vets who would know this - probably from sad personnel experience. Even Kores/VietNam cases must exist - real young in one war and middle aged in the next. I have never heard that being in a war was a draft deferment - at least officially. A veterans organization would know maybe - neat to see if there were appreciable numbers that we have never heard of ( noone ever thought to ask the question I bet )
159.105.80.141 12:35, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
"Get on Back Home I don't know why I left. But I must've done wrong. And it won't be long 'Till I get on back home. Got a letter in the mail. Go to war or go to jail."<- Frustrated undertone. 97.43.195.22 ( talk) 23:01, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
The first paragraph really misses the point:
"The U.S. armed forces are now designated as "all-volunteer", although, in 2004 as well as during the 1991 Gulf war, some enlisted personnel were involuntarily kept in the Army after their initial voluntary enlistment commitments had expired."
The point of a volunteer force is that its members voluntarily ENTER it. In doing so, they freely and knowingly forego a right to exit at will. Explicitly, enlistment contracts state circumstances wherein they can be extended unilaterally by the government (this can often occur when a ship is at sea, the sailor's enlistment is extended until the ship returns to port.) There is nothing inherently contradictory about this. Please enlighten me why the statement should not be removed? -pbs
This might help provide some explanation, PBS: * The draft would weaken the world's best military, The Wall Street Journal editorial, November 25, 2006 Asteriks 02:42, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
So might this: * Reinstating the military draft by Walter E. Williams Asteriks 15:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I've heard that if you're the only child, or the only male child in some instances, you cannot be drafted. Is this possible? Rockhound 18:48, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Its a myth.
There are currently about 30 non-indexed footnotes in this article. Adding <ref></ref> tags to what's there will take some effort that I can't expend right now (because it's bed time). I'll do it sometime in the next few days if someone else doesn't get to it first. Er iel hon an 07:24, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't know who the quote in the first paragraph is from. If it's just a student at Emerson College, it needs to be removed. No offense to the opinion, but an undergraduate is not a sufficient authority to get top billing on the page. I'm going to remove it but if there is more here, feel free to put it back with an explanation. Papercrab 21:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I wonder if it would be of any interest to post pics of selective service/draft cards from various eras? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.191.19.42 ( talk) 20:13, 12 March 2007 (UTC).
I would like to see a Civil War draft letter - "Welcome from Abe Lincoln...." 159.105.80.141 12:36, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Rangel's draft proposal - sort of tongue in cheek ( I don't think he was serious - maybe he was ) was in a way a sweeping indictment of the system. He also was warning Americans that constant war - big and/or small - would give us a draft when we weren't looking someday. Drafting everyone - no exemptions ( imagine seeing a kid from Greenich ducking the same bullet as a kid from Stamford ( seems almost unAmerican ). Rangel should have beefed up his bill to make sure that mission - ie frontline vs Hawaii - was also random. Imagine a kid from Greenich ducking bullets while a kid from Stamford loinged on the beach ( really perverted if you ask me ). 159.105.80.141 12:41, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I know it is cited - right from our government - but i find it hard to believe that only 2% were draftees in the Civil War. The average age of most of the soldiers from my state was in the mid-teens ( 15 I remember) and I doubt that most of these really volunteered. The replacement number - 6% - seems low. I suspect 15 year old poor boys didn't flock to war without a little push, nor would there have been draft riots from such a happy to serve crowd. 159.105.80.141 18:18, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Please merge relevant content, if any, from Poverty Draft per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Poverty Draft. (If there is nothing to merge, just leave it as a redirect.) Thanks. — Quarl ( talk) 2007-04-08 07:47Z
Is it me, or does the opening paragraph of this website sound familiar (hint: the beginning of this page). They could be taking it from here, but it seems more likely that somebody took it from there. Kasey Klynstra ( talk) 18:07, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Actually, looking at the page, it seems like most of it was just copied and pasted to here or from here. K² ( talk) 18:11, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Are there any laws governing under what conditions a draft can be reinstated? For example, I've heard that, after the disaster of Vietnam, a law was passed that forbade reinstatement of the draft barring an invasion of U.S. soil. In fact, I've heard this so many times, from so many people, that I thought it was true. But there's nothing about that here, and no such law exists as an amendment to the Constitution. Is that whole "invasion of U.S. soil" thing merely the political science equivalent of an urban myth? In any case, if there any laws governing under what conditions a draft can be reinstated, that would seem to be a glaring omission in this article. Minaker ( talk) 12:57, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
I read the Rod Powers article listed in the external links. It's worth pointing out that the article, while highly informative in terms of objective facts, makes an argument (that there is no danger that the draft will be reinstated) which is partially based on extremely flawed logic. Note that I'm not saying whether or not I agree with Mr. Powers's conclusions, I am merely pointing out the problem with the article's logic.
One piece of evidence Powers uses is the current administration's repeated and unequivocal public statements that it does not support the draft, which Powers says makes the administration's views on the draft "very clear." The problem with this argument is: How many times has the current administration repeated unequivocal claims about policy that have been outright lies? I won't get into a "Bush is bad, no he isn't" argument here, but whoever thinks the Bush administration has been 100% truthful in its public statements simply hasn't been paying attention, end of story.
Another piece of evidence Powers uses to prove that the draft will not be reinstated is that reinstatement of the draft would simply be a "bad idea," a major point which Powers then goes on to defend quite convincingly. However, the logical flaw here is that Powers is assuming that just because something is a bad idea means that it won't be put into action. Just some food for thought. Minaker ( talk) 13:46, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
hey the draft does break the constitution because it denies the pursuit of happiness and the right of life liberty
Can somebody have a look at the "draft induced" volunteerism? It's implying a causal relationship I'm unsure exists. If drafted, the Army chose where to send you; if you volunteered, you got some choice. I'm not sure the draft caused it as much as the desire to avoid getting sent to Vietnam (or am I splitting hairs?). TREKphiler hit me ♠ 03:11, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Was that what it acutally said, or has somebody "corrected" it in a false attempt at propriety to make the page suitable for the sensitive eyes of parents of easily-offended six year olds? TREKphiler hit me ♠ 15:06, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The article has a section headed "World War I and World War II" yet it begins with 1926, eight years after World War I ended. There is no discussion of the draft during World War I. I have a copy of the 1917 registration card of my grandfather, so I know some sort of draft existed.
I request that some knowledgeable person add a discussion of the draft for World War I.
Thank you. Boardstiff ( talk) 12:06, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Proposal for a new section (maybe a History subsection) that reviews what terms of conscription, from both gov't and soldier POVs, at each of the periods in the History section. There are some key questions not currently addressed in the current article. Here are a few that could be great for a table. Given a current period:
- age - main exemptions
- how long? - serve in any branch, or is Army the default? - other terms? - basically, what choices if any, if conscript did not enlist voluntarily?
Marquess ( talk) 21:19, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
This was touched on, but not fully developed. Volunteers currently enlist for four years, but have an obligation for six years. Before the Gulf war, this was a moot point, as there was no such thing as "stop loss." So, while previously, people got out after four years and were enrolled in the inactive reserves, this changed after 1990.
Today, people can get out of the service, get married, have kids, and be out of shape, and find themselves ordered back to military service. While this doesn't fit the definition of conscription (they volunteered), the effect is the same. These people (men and women) are sent to the front, and their infants and jobs are left behind. Many return to find their jobs gone, and their spouses divorced.
I believe there needs to be a section that outlines this modern "draft" technique. K5okc ( talk) 17:45, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
The primary google response, I came here looking to understand how the draft worked throughout our history. I was very disappointed with this article. It does not describe in detail how the draft was conducted at various times and spends way too much effort on anti-war and anti-draft narrative. For example, how were local draft boards composed and how did they pick and choose candidates?? What were the mechanics of selection throughout our history, with it's faults and successes. How were men selected just prior to the Vietnam lottery? There's a citation "President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed an executive order on July 11, 1953 that ended the paternity deferment for married men". Paternity deferment?? How did that work? When did that start?? The article does not even list the various Vietnam era classifications and deferments available. Wikipedia is way too political. "Conscription in the United States" should describe the history and mechanics of the draft. The protests and anti-war types and anti-service types had an influence but it should not be the focus of the article. Dubiousofwiki ( talk) 21:10, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
I concur with Dubiousofwiki on all points. Strip out all the pros, cons and political bias, get the facts of the timelines and legal mechanics down correctly and clearly first and put the benefits, detriments and political positions in trailing paragraphs - or, a separate article that refers back to this one. Confusing and incomplete as it is, I am unable to decipher just how many men were taken into the military in the years leading up to and including the first few years of WWII. As "unemployment" changes during this time period are often cited as evidence for one or another current policy, it is important to know just how much of the change was due to military inductions and how much due to employment in the civil and rapidly expanding military industry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.88.1.215 ( talk) 18:44, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
I created Draft board because I think it deserves its own artcicle. I don't really know much about it though, I think some editors of this article could add a lot more to it.-- Profitoftruth85 ( talk) 05:40, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
I was born in January 1957 and upon registering to vote in 1975 I distinctly remember receiving a draft status (inactive). So, I believe that the statement regarding the end of the draft needs to be revised to include at least "early 1957". WallyFromColumbia ( talk) 16:18, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
The second last sentence of the subsection "End of conscription" says "December 1972 saw the last men conscripted, who were born in 1953". I'm almost positive they were born in 1952, not 1953. I was born in 1953, and I distinctly remember that the 1953 cohort was the first from which no one was drafted, although draft priority numbers were assigned by lottery to birth dates for that year. Moreover, as far as I can see, the cited source does not state the birth year of the last people drafted—it just says "The last man was drafted in December 1972 and reported for training in June 1973."
Unless someone can come up with a source that says 1953, I'll remove the phrase "who were born in 1953". Better yet, could someone find a source that confirms it was 1952? Duoduoduo ( talk) 16:45, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
1953 Agreed- I was also born in 1953 and had a very bad draft number. No 1953 folks were drafted, although we were processed for 1-A classification up to a certain draft number (95). See www.sss.gov for confirming data. Importantly, 1953 was the first birth year that college freshmen like me had no student deferment option (196x Supreme Court ruling, right?). It should be noted that nobody has been drafted since the student deferment was ruled unconstitutional (1953 and later). TBILLT ( talk) 01:59, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
"December 28, 1972 had been scheduled to be the last day that draftees would be inducted that year. However, President Nixon declared that day a national day of mourning due to the death of former President Truman, and Federal offices were closed.[84] Men scheduled to report that day were never inducted, since the draft was not resumed in 1973." This appears to be inaccurate. [1] In this link, 646 men were drafted in 1973. Presumably, they would be people who were born in 1953, since they received their draft number the year before and were eligible for the draft. Lhammer610 ( talk) 16:49, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
Not sure if this should be included, but should there be a reference in the article about people who are autistic, and if they are exempt from the draft? Thank you.-- It's Senior Year! ( talk) 23:56, 20 September 2010 (UTC)Chris
For WW II, I was checking the original source - the Wiki article claims that Flynn gives
"n the massive draft of World War II, 50 million men from eighteen to forty-five were registered, 36 million classified, and 10 million inducted.[9]"
However, I just checked his book via a search at amazon, and what I found was
"From October 1940 to 31 March 1947, when the draft finally ended, SS registered 49 million men, selected 19 million, and saw 10 million inducted."
I could not find the 36 million classified quote (not sure even what that means? Is that those who took the reading and math ability tests? Those who were physically examined for fitness?). And as can be seen he says 49 million, not 50 million.
LetterRip ( talk) 03:01, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
under current circumstances, there is little need for the draft, and little demand by the military or Congress. However, the Iraq war taught the lesson that the occupation of a hostile country requires a large military presence -- 100,000 soldiers were too few for Iraq. An American or NATO occupation of some large country is hypothetically possible, and would require hundreds of thousands of new American soldiers, they would not have to be highly trained to operate advanced equipment. They would have to be boots on the ground. That would be the formula for a new draft. Rjensen ( talk) 09:10, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
Last month, Slate published an interview with J.E. McNeil. It looks to me to be a pretty reliable source - a mainstream publication and so on. Perhaps someone who is more interested in the topic might want to include some of the information from the article into this article. — Tom Morris ( talk) 23:34, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
It's true that among drafted men, African-Americans were proportionately over-represented in both world wars. But their overall proportion of the armed forces was actually lower than the percentage of black men of military age in the U.S. at the time. Prior to the outbreak of war, in both cases, the armed forces were overwhelmingly white. During WW I, for example, there were only about 10,000 black soldiers in the Regular Army, which had some 500,000 men by the time voluntary enlists were ended. The National Guard, which brought in about 435,0000 men, included only about 10,000 black personnel. Navy, which ended up with over 500,000 men, also had no more than about 10,000 African-Americans, while the Marine Corps, with nearly 80,000 men, had no black personnel at all. So of the first 1.5 million or so men who were either already in the service when war was declared, or who came in through the National Guard or voluntary enlistments, not more than 30,000 were African Americans. This meant that the pool of draftable men had proportionately more black men than whites, so that African Americans constituted about 13 percent of the men drafted, several points more than their proportion in the general population. I have never seen a full-scale study of this, but see my short essay, "Black Americans and the Draft in World War I",
at http://www.strategypage.com/cic/docs/cic56c.asp
Al-Nofi ( talk) 22:34, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
In the section titled World War II, we have conflicting statements about the maximum registration age:
"requiring the registration of all men eighteen to sixty-four years of age"
"amended the act to require all men from 18 to 65 to register"
I don't know which is correct, so I'm not going to do the edit myself.
By the way, just for those who might enjoy trivia: I happened across this article because we found draft registration cards for one of my wife's relatives from *both* WWI and WWII. The man was born in 1887--just right to have to register for both wars! Don't know whether he served or not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Poihths ( talk • contribs) 23:11, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
The facts stated in the second paragraph are at odds with the facts stated in the Wikipedia article on "The Selective Training and Service Act". Suggest that the differences between these two statements be resolved in favor of the actual facts and brought into line with each other. Also, as with the STSA article, there is no distinction made between draftees and volunteers with both being subsumed under the term and numbers "inducted", a term that can mean either the taking of an individual under coercion of law (a draftee) or the processing of all individuals (draftees and volunteers) entering service regardless of motivation. Those numbers should be separated and reported as such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.88.1.215 ( talk) 18:12, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
The SSA website tells how 39 state governments (this includes Guam and the Virgin Islands) require that minor boys applying for learners permits and first drivers licenses are required to have their personal information sent to the SSA in Washington, D.C. Isn't this technically pedophilia? Godofredo29 ( talk) 08:45, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
7 years later, this completely unreferenced and very POV-pushing section is still kicking around with no improvements. Since no one has stepped up to make it more than just a rant, it needs to go. Likewise, the following section, Controversies since 2003, is full of undue weight and almost completely unnecessary in an article about the draft overall. Most of the points made are little more than trivia anyway; the best thing to do would be to contextualize current events with historical ones. Foxyshadis( talk) 08:44, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Were people who were conscripted, conscripted into just the Army or into the other armed services as well? 76.246.36.153 ( talk) 06:13, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
{{
cite web}}
: External link in |publisher=
(
help)The persons inducted into the Armed Forces for training and service under this title (said sections) shall be assigned to stations or units of such forces. Persons inducted into the land forces of the United States pursuant to this title (said
sections) shall be deemed to be members of the Army of the United States; persons inducted into the naval forces of the United States pursuant to this title (said sections) shall be deemed to be members of the United States Navy or the United States Marine Corps or the United States Coast Guard, as appropriate; and persons inducted into the air forces of the United States pursuant to this title (said
sections) shall be deemed to be members of the Air Force of the United States.
When I was drafted in 1971, while processing at the induction center, some Marines came and called out some of the inductees. They got to be Marines while the rest of us went into the Army. The word was occasionally the Marines fell short on recruitment goals and resorted to the draft to fill out. Wschart ( talk) 18:40, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
I think this word, as the standard opening for letters informing a man of his being drafted, should be mentioned. i believe it was universally recognized, and i suppose feared.( User:Mercurywoodrose) 99.101.138.130 ( talk) 21:36, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
The earliest instance of conscription by the government was the impressment of men into the Continental Navy. If captains of American naval vessels were unable to fill their crew quotas from soliciting volunteers, they were allowed to conscript people into the navy through means known as impressment. For this article to be complete it should include details on impressment by the American navy during its early existance.
XavierGreen ( talk) 00:12, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
The WWI section contains a serious problem.
It currently states the following: "The military attempted to socialize and Americanize young immigrant recruits, not by forcing "angloconformity", but by showing remarkable sensitivity and respect for ethnic values and traditions and a concern for the morale of immigrant troops. Sports activities, keeping immigrant groups together, newspapers in various languages, the assistance of bilingual officers, and ethnic entertainment programs were all employed..."
This is demonstrably not the case and the cite used to back up the claim is not from a serious historian. There was very well documented and systematized Anglo conformity directed at WWI draftees. Sober Secondary sources are full of documentation of this. To discuss that on this articles main page would turn the WWI draft section into a long discussion of ethnic conformity and I propose to just remove the absurd text I cited.14:35, 9 December 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.48.226.29 ( talk)
The entire article reads like journalism, and second-rate journalism at that. "Finally, marriage and family were exempted because of its positive societal consequences." What does that mean - that marriage and family were applicants? "The United States breathed easier with the Korean War Armistice on July 27, 1953; however, technology brought new promises and threats." Breathed easier? The topic is conscription, not constriction. "President Kennedy's decision to send military troops to Vietnam as "advisors" was a signal that Selective Service Director Lewis B. Hershey needed to visit the Oval Office." The inanity of this sentence speaks for itself. And so on. Orthotox ( talk) 18:24, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
In March (in my edit summary I erroneously said April) an editor replaced the first paragraph of the Vietnam War subsection with a long-winded paragraph enclosed in quotes.
I have reverted this. Not because I think the previous paragraph was good (it has had a citation needed tag on it since 2012 and is not terribly well-written), but rather because what it was replaced with seems to be a quote from somewhere -- one that is completely unattributed. Whereas poor prose with weak citations isn't great, possible copyvio is serious.
There were no sources in the user's edits so they don't put the article on firmer footing, but if any editor wants to look at what he wrote and see if any of the content can be salvaged, please do so. Eniagrom ( talk) 08:30, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
Incidentally, that edit was the user's only edit on Wikipedia. Eniagrom ( talk) 08:32, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
Until just now, the article said that
Cite 23 is a 1993 book, The Draft, 1940–1973 by George Q. Flynn. Google Books will shows me snippets of that, and the key passage appears to be on page 85 and reads "During the war the nation had peacefully registered 49 million men, selected 19 million, and inducted 10 million." I have accordingly changed the article to say 49 million.
But as was just pointed out in a Reference Desk thread, this number still seems to be too large. See pages 57 and 156 of this Census Department PDF. If the total US population in 1940 was only about 132 million, and 18.2% of them were aged 15–24 and 30.1% were aged 25–44, then the number of males who were within the range 18–45 at some time when the US was involved in the war should have been something like 32 million, not 49 million. The higher number only makes sense if the draft registration involved a large number of people who were not males aged 18–45 and resident in the US.
I'm flagging this as dubious for now. What's the explanation? -- 76.69.45.64 ( talk) 23:58, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
The Kennedy book title link contains a typo. Where it says Worm it should read World. I would fix it myself, but there is a Soviet Socialist allowed to censor articles lest readers be affronted with the knowledge that the WWII German regime was run by the National Socialist party who would probably undo my correction. Until that entity's credentials are cancelled, I am disinclined to invest much more effort. translator ( talk) 13:32, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
A small missing fact from the article is that Gerald Ford ended Draft registration. The fact that Carter reinstated it is, however, in the article. So, it's a bit confusing. If I can find some reliable sources on Ford's ending the requirement to register for the draft I will add it to the "End of Conscription" section.
ZeroXero ( talk) 17:18, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
The National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2017 [2] (November 30, 2016) contains important information on recent developments in United States conscription policy. Title V, Subtitle F (sections 551–555) is of particular interest. Gmarmstrong ( talk) 03:23, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
Principles for Reforming the Military Selective Service Process [3] (April 3, 2017) is President Trump's message to Congress regarding Title F. Gmarmstrong ( talk) 03:22, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
References
Relative to Russia, during the Vietnam & Korean Wars, there was also a cold war vs USSR. But "cold war" seems inappropriate for Korea & Vietnam with all the body bags. ( PeacePeace ( talk) 16:33, 27 December 2019 (UTC))
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In doing a lookover of writeup of the lottery of 1969, I have not seen the aim of correcting the born-early-in-year problem. This refers to the greater tendency to draft those born earlier in the calendar year. Carlm0404 ( talk) 04:36, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
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I was looking at the Cold War section and saw this reference after wanting to check the source for more context:
I checked out that reference and noticed that a vast amount of material there was identical to what appears in this article. After suspecting a copyright violation, I checked the edit history and found that the material was added by DrBrett1 - presumably the author of the doctoral dissertation - who made 20 edits over a two hour period in July 2008. ( HERE] is his edit history.) I don't have any objection to the material, but I am wondering if this violated WP:OR in that the editor cited his own material rather than the original source. Not sure any of it really matters, but I'll leave this for those who understand the subject matter and Wikipedia policies a bit more than I do. - Location ( talk) 05:09, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
I looked up this Conscription article hoping to answer my question related to this section title, but the article does not supply this information, which in my opinion, it SHOULD. The article makes clear that draft registration was reinstated for birth-year 1960 by Jimmy Carter, but not what earlier birth-year had been the last to HAVE registration previously (the process by which, I presume, one would be issued a "draft card"), and thus, what period of birth-years, ending with 1959 obviously, were exempt. It does address what birth-years men were actually drafted, but not when they no longer had to even register. Somebody please answer my question, and include this information in the article! 2601:545:8201:6290:0:0:0:2EB7 ( talk) 08:48, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
I think the only periods of federal drafting before 1917 were during the Civil War, under the Militia Act of 1862, Enrollment Act of 1863, and Confederate Conscription Acts 1862–1864? I've been trying to get stats on how many men were drafted during this time, and I'm running out of time to continue searching. Some sources that might have this info, if anyone else is interested in tracking it down:
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I'm going to spin off this article into a new one, there's enough history, information, and external links to justify expanding the article more AStudent 15:33, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
We will not have an all-volunteer army. And yet, this week ---- we will have an all-volunteer army!
--Dubya's own supporters bail him out of a verbal snafu, Daytona Beach, Florida, Oct. 16, 2004
--This section should be removed. It makes no useful contribution whatsoever to improving the associated article. The guidelines for Talk pages are very explicit about the idea that Talk pages are NOT intended as forums for general discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.40.69.21 ( talk) 23:02, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
For an October 2004 deletion debate over this page see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Revival of the draft
Unfortunately, Kerry's 100 day plan has disappeared from his site. I still prefer the John Kerry forum URL I posted because it is an exact quote, obviously a cut and paste of the original. The quote is also preserved several other places on the web, just search google:
Here is a URL that references a fact sheet:
Bush in the second debate, practically did a "read my lips" that he would not implement a draft. Kerry is far more likely to implement a draft. He is a nationalist with the hubris to beleive he knows what is best for others. In addition to his "100 Day Plan to Change America" where he proposes mandatory public service to graduate from high school. He thinks everyone has a duty to serve their nation and to encourage this he proposes a system where college tuition is paid for in exchange for service. His key supporter, Ted Kennedy proposed mandatory public service back in the late 70s, perhaps they were inspired by JFK, "Ask not ...". Then look at the history of the volunteer army and the draft. Senator's Barry Goldwater and Mark Hatfield co-sponsored the bill to end the draft in 1968. Conservatives have been behind the professional army movement and critical of the quality of a conscript army, especially in this technological age. While more of a moderate than a conservative, Bush subscribes to conservative principles in this area. I can't support Bush for other reasons, but with a son that would become draft age during a 2nd Kerry term, there is no way I could support him. Bush is more predictible than Kerry, and he will avoid a draft on principle, and I also believe Bush is less likely to institute a draft based on his and Kerry's personal historys. Note that he chose to avoid the combat that Kerry thought was his "duty". Now perhaps you think that is admirable, but the problem with these "duty" types, is that not only do they think it was their duty, they think it is you and your son's duty also-- Silverback 08:13, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
page snapped from google before the purge-- Silverback 20:02, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
from the article:
An early report from the early summer of 2004 claimed that the administration of George W. Bush had authorized 27 million dollars for for investigation and preparation for reinstating conscription as early as January of 2005. A vigorous debate than ensued as to whether or not a no-draft position was feasible within the parameters of Bush's sweeping military goals. In mid-October of 2004, a separate proposal appeared for conscripting only medical personnel.
Nevertheless, the Bush administration has been criticized for implementing a "back door draft" by involuntarily extending the enlistment periods of military personnel for an additional two years after the expiration of their original commitments. 7
-- Silverback 11:35, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC) I think the first paragraph and the stricken one should go, they are minor political fluff and very POV. Perhaps the realistic provisions for a medical draft can be retained. If we are to retain the first paragraph, it should be noted that Charles Wrangel also voted against the proposal, and the list of oppenents should be made more balanced, the libertarian party, milton freidman, william F. Buckley, George W. Bush, John Kerry, hundreds of congressmen and senators, etc. The back door draft issue seems more legitimate, although in my modification, I note that I put "involuntary" in quotes. Soldeirs receive a lot of "involuntary" orders in war. In a voluntary military, the question is whether they are really "involuntary" in the usual sense, and whether they are "innocent civilians", the usual victims of a draft. Frankly, I question whether anyone can really give informed consent to yield such complete control over their lives to a government given the unpredictable nature of the future. Critics of people who change their mind midstream and refuse to follow orders, argue that they don't see how the military can work without discipline. Advocates of freedom suggest that the military get better at screening for the right kind of people, issuing orders that they will follow and paying the amounts necessary to attract and retain them.-- Silverback 11:35, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
On the first paragraph disputed paragraph, no one has really defended. It is true that there is a contingency plan for a draft. But this seems to be required by a law of Congress from several years back. So putting it at Bush's feet seems a tad unfair. Currently, the DoD, SecDef, & Pres all disavow any plans to draft doctors. [1] Removing paragraph.
I believe that the NPOV tag ought to be stricken, as Alkivar's stated concerns have been addressed. Wolfman 14:53, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Excuse me for lack of formatting, but I had to register to show this point. The article is very biased against Bush because it discusses the "Back Door Draft" twice but never once ever mentions that it is a practice done in every major conflict in United states history. Lasersailor184 15:33, 15 Feb 2006
Herewith my explanation for reverting Alkivar's latest edits:
The external links have included this one: " Dan Smith article in FCNL". I expanded " FCNL" to Friends Committee on National Legislation, but then, when I went to check the link, it turned out be a list of a whole bunch of articles. It wasn't immediately obvious what was being linked to here, or why.
The closest match I could find was this one. Although it's titled "Rock the Draft", it's more about campaign-related issues than about conscription itself. (It's about the Republican National Committee trying to intimidate Rock the Vote.) This link might belong in one of the campaign articles, but it doesn't seem to be appropriate here. I'm removing the link. If the reader should be directed to a different article on the FCNL site, the link should be restored but with a more precise URL. JamesMLane 06:52, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Removed the Hagel quote because the link-footnote does not contain it - it just goes to Wes Pruden's latest column. Certainly if a correct link can be found the quote can go back in.
Ellsworth 00:37, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
This is all probably unrescueable POV. Zeimusu 14:17, 2004 Dec 16 (UTC)
Some people feel that the draft is unfair because only males are required to register with the Selective Service, and it's only males that could potentially be drafted. The draft has been perceived by some as unfairly targeting the poor and lower middle classes. Because of college deferments, children of wealthy and upper middle class families that could afford to send them to college could avoid the draft. The fact that President Clinton had avoided military service through the use of a deferment caused controversy during his campaigns and during his time in office.
Some children of wealthy families wished to avoid a perception of avoiding military service. Those individuals would often sign up for the National Guard. The fact that some were able to use their family's connections to gain a position when spots in the guard were limited also led to a perception that the wealthy were using the National Guard to ensure that their children were assigned low risk duty in the states. This is an issue that has affected President George W. Bush - some of his critics contend that his family influence gained him a spot in what was called the Champagne unit of the Texas National Guard rather than being drafted.
Also, the draft system itself in the United States was not entirely a fair and impartial system. There have been cases where local draft boards misused their authority in the past.
While the government had instituted reforms to deal with what were perceived to be the worst abuses, some people feel that more can still be done. Others feel that any military draft is inherently unfair because only a small percentage of eligible draftees are needed at only one time. One leading opponent of military draft restoration, State Rep. Mark B. Cohen of Philadelphia, said "The draft hurts military efficiency by substituting well motivated volunteers for unmotivated draftees, undermines military pay and benefits by removing the need to attract volunteers, and creates anxiety and unrest among tens of millions of people who will never serve. It is a dangerous psuedo-solution to a non-existent problem."
The provisions for conscientious objection to the draft have also been viewed as unfairly descriminatory, favoring religious objection over non-religious objection, and favoring those who value peace and non-violence over those who value freedom. Alternative mandatory service can assuage objections based on peace and non-violence, but do nothing for those who objections arise from strongly held convictions about freedom. Many who object to the draft find it directly conflicts with the liberty clause they committed themselves to in the Pledge of Allegiance.
I believe it is a mistake to take this section out. Yes, it expresses a point of view, but it is a point of view that is necessary to understand why there has not been a draft in the United States for over 31 years, and why both Bush and Kerry, and well as the the platforms of the Republican and Democratic Parties, as well as the Liberterian and Green Parties, opposed reinstatement.
It is one thing to advocate for something; it is something else to explain the intellectual reasons why something is the way it is. Are sections of articles on the revolutionary war going to be edited so that the grievances of the American colonists not be listed for fear of a violation of NPOV? Are sections of articles on the civil war going to be edited so that views for and against the abolition of slavery not be printed for fear of a violation of NPOV? Are articles on communism, McCarthyism, Nazism, etc. going to be edited so that a reader will not be able to learn of either the appeal or repulsion that these ideologies held?
NPOV is an ideal, which, like other ideals, should be leavened with common sense. A literal all encompassing view of NPOV will lead to the destruction of Wikipedia as a valuable resource for history, political science, sociology, economics, etc.
Zulitz, 20:44, December 26, 2004 (UTC)
There is a conscription template. Shall we use it? Zeimusu 00:12, 2004 Dec 17 (UTC)
There's a reference to a 1919 Supreme Court decision but with no title, citation or link. A somewhat similar decision from 1920 is Gilbert v. Minnesota, 254 U.S. 325 (1920) (text available here). Is that the one that's meant? Regardless, I'm dubious about including any such reference, given that those cases are clearly no longer good law. For example, during the Vietnam War, the Supreme Court held that wearing a jacket saying "Fuck the Draft" was protected free speech. JamesMLane 01:40, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Apparently the courts have not ruled that conscription is not "involuntary servitude", just that other things such as powers granted in other parts of the constitution and "supreme and noble duty" (as long as "exacted" by representative bodies) outweight this particular amendement. The apropo part of the 1918 decision, which only addressed 1 line to the great questions summarily dismisses it without supporting analysis or deliberation. I quote it here:
This is basically little more than an argument from nationalism in the Hegelian/fascist style. There is no evidence this aspect of the decision was made on "legal" grounds, no consideration of legislative intent, no comparison with other forms of servitude, not even a suggestion of conflict with other parts of the constitution. They assert a "duty", without suggesting a "legal" duty, they are intruding on moral grounds better addressed by respected authorities such as Einstein, Gandhi and Rand.-- Silverback 09:22, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The sentence you quoted is, IMO, polite legalese for the following: "It's been argued that the draft violates the Thirteenth Amendment. This argument is absurd. Chattel slavery and military conscription are two completely different things, and you'd have to be an idiot to think that the Thirteenth Amendment, intended to bar the former, also barred the latter." The "unable to conceive" language doesn't mean "we're too dumb to understand the argument" or "we've decided not to consider the argument." It means, "We've considered the argument, but this decision isn't even close."
Here again, if you want to find a reputable legal scholar who says something critical of the Arver decision, that comment would at least be a candidate for inclusion.
Even noting that the Court didn't analyze the argument at length is more detail than most readers will want in an article about the draft. To say that the Court didn't spend a lot of time on the argument may be one more little rock to throw, and therefore pleasing to any reader who has an obsession with every negative thing that can possibly be said about conscription, but that doesn't make it worth including in the article. Nevertheless, in another attempt to compromise, I've tried an edit that mentions this minor fact; we can mention it, and convey the information, without devoting several lines to the full quotation.
In the certiorari decision in Holmes, Douglas's opinion commented on the constitutionality of the draft and on the more general question of granting certiorari. A few edits ago, I added a summary of what he said on the former point, which is the subject of this article. The quotation on the latter point doesn't tell the reader anything about the draft. The Supreme Court receives many more cert petitions than it can accept. They have to pick and choose. No one argues that the Court should concentrate on trivia and ignore "basic norms of the [constitutional] system".
The Justices vote according to which ones they think are important, and also according to whether they think the lower court got it right. I don't think that Douglas's quotation on that point adds anything to the reader's understanding of the draft. (Douglas, incidentally, was known for voting to grant cert quite often. If all the cert petitions that Douglas supported had been accepted, the Court would have been working off the backlog for years after his death. That's a fact that's relevant to assessing his vote to grant cert in Holmes, but I think it's too peripheral to include in an article on the draft. Because it would tend to undercut an anti-conscription point, I assume that there'll be no demand that it be included.)
I also don't see what the Rand quotation adds. As I've mentioned above, there's really no reason to cite her at all in this context. She's not a lawyer. She has no credentials for opining on a question of constitutional law. I would omit her entirely (at least from the "Legality" section). As a compromise, I'm (reluctantly) willing to say that she still thinks the draft violates the Thirteenth Amendment -- so if we say that, what does the quotation add? We've already stated that the Thirteenth Amendment prohibits "involuntary servitude". She doesn't elaborate on her reasoning beyond that. Given that there's no real reason to include her opinion in the first place, there's certainly no reason to state her opinion twice. JamesMLane 22:58, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
-- Silverback 07:24, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC) Now that I have read the rest of the opinion, I find the short passage to be representative of the quality if not the verbosity of the whole decision. Yes there are at least some cases cited and law discussed, but it is replete with leaps to conclusions justfied by no more than hyperbolic language about things which cannot be doubted or conceived, that can easily be doubted and conceived with very little effort. The inherent assumption of and deference to the perogatives of nations and sovereignty betray minds with limited analytic ability to be aware of or question their own assumptions.-- Silverback 07:24, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Silverback, marvelous job of defending the truth of the matter. I'll make a few more arguments in case anyone cares. It's obvious that the court failed to address the issue. Any idiot (except idiots with law degrees) can read the Constitution and understand it. For some reason I think it was designed that way intentionally. In order for amendments to have any effect, they must override previous articles. To believe otherwise makes the Constitution subject not to its words as written or to the wishes of its authors but to the whims of its interpreters. Clearly the authors of the 13th amendment wished to prohibit not only slavery, but any vestiges of it, no matter how ingrained. By including the prohibition of "involuntary servitude", they made the scope of the amendment as broad as possible, while still expressing the fundamental tenents of that which they found morally reprehensible: being forced to do that which one does not wish to do. In doing so, they recognized the effect this prohibition would have on the legitimate exercise of government power. They had the foresight to include an exception for that one legitimate purpose, "punishment for a crime whereof the accused shall have been duly convicted." They did not feel it necessary to permit any other acts of force by the state upon the people. Neither did Ayn Rand. And neither do I.
The court, however, seemingly too enamoured with their own role as constitutional interpreter, could not fathom any reason to limit the injurious, protested, and unnecessary exercise of ungranted state power. Well, I can think of one such reason: that the Constitution demands it. Morality demands it. Consent, as the basis of representative government, demands it.
But, while random strangers on the internet can spend hours writing pages of analysis on the 13th amendment and its effects on conscription, the US Supreme Court in their infinite legal wisdom can write little more than a single sentence devoid of meaning. To hold this sentence up as final judgement on the matter would be negligent of any American. At the least, I should hope that informing intelligent readers of its inadequacies would be germane to the mission of Wikipedia. -- Benjamindees 02:51, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Frightening news, if true....... The President has given the Selective Service System a set of readiness goals to be implemented by March 31, 2005. As part of these performance goals, the System must be ready to be fully operational within 75 days. This means we can look for the Draft to be in operation as early as June 15, 2005.
US Preparing for Military Draft in Spring 2005
The current agenda of the US federal government is to reinstate the draft in order to staff up for a protracted war on "terrorism." Pending legislation in the House and Senate (twin bills S 89 and HR 163) would time the program so the draft could begin at early as Spring 2005 -- conveniently just after the 2004 presidential election! But the administration is quietly trying to get these bills passed NOW, so our action is needed immediately. Details and links follow. If voters who currently supportU.S.aggression abroad were confronted with the possibility that their own children or grandchildren might not have a say about whether to fight, many of these same voters might have a change of mind. (Not that it should make a difference, but this plan would among other things eliminate higher education as a shelter and would not exclude women -- and Canada is no longer an option.)
I DELETED THE FOLLOWING:
Senator
Barry Goldwater proposed ending the draft during his unsuccessful
1964 campaign as the
Republican candidate for
President.
Ted Wilkes 22:26, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
Obviously the above text about the draft being reinstated by June is completely wrong, probably purposefully so. Its August now, and still no draft. Just another left wing bomb thrower. ColdFusion650
Under the section Perception of the Draft as Unfair, the article says "Also, the draft system itself in the United States was not entirely a fair and impartial system. There have been cases where local draft boards misused their authority in the past." I think this statement by itselt does not belong in the article. Examples of misused authority should be provided. Some guy 05:55, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
In 1775 the Town or Pownalborough, Maine issued a proclamation requiring "all able-bodied men resident in the town to be enlisted in the Militia: as a defensive measure given the only Court House in Maine at the time was in Pownalborough. The Town Council proclamation also listed the organization of the Militia and the names of those so "drafted". This remarkable document can be found in the Massachusetts Archives in the Town Hall records for Pownalborough. Please remember that in 1775, as with today, a "Town" in Maine includes the whole township.
Were they drafted to serve in the federal army - under Washington.? Were they required to leave the township? Did the town of Pownalborough have the authority to draft? It listed the names - all ablebodied men should have covered it, who did they not name - let me guess, the rich?
159.105.80.141 17:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
From earliest colonial times "states" often resorted to a draft to fill militia ranks, and also to help organize standing units for war service, such as during the French and Indian War.
During the Revolutionary War states often filled with quotas by resorting to a draft.
-- Al-Nofi ( talk) 14:22, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
This section (added by 67.171.144.181) is taken from a Selective Service website, and is copyrighted by them. I don't know if it is considered public domain because it is a work of the US government. I am going to delete this section until this issue is resolved. -- JW1805 16:50, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
as i understand one could buy a deferment from the draft in the civil war, also i heard a reference to such a practice during the vietnam conflict. Can anyone learned in this matter post relevant info?
I believe that you could buy your way out for $300. You could also buy out if you could get someone to go for you - ie give a poor man $100,etc to send his son or himself in your stead. In th eUnion army many young men were sent in place of their older brother - offshot of primogeniter(spelling) oldest son got the farm,etc the younger sons got the boot /hopefully a trade- usually the boot. 159.105.80.141 17:21, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
2 things. During 'nam, if you volunteered, you had a much better chance of choosing your specialty & much less chance of getting sent to the war; recall, the U.S. was deployed worldwide, especially Europe. And, doesn't "stop loss" violate contract law? One party (USG or DoD) isn't permitted to arbitrarily change the terms without the consent of the other...& damned if I'd agree to staying in Iraq after the Pres lied to the country to get it in there. Trekphiler 00:40, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
No, stop loss doesn't violate any laws. Its included in the contract. As well as the fact that most 1st termers are on 8 year contracts, 4 years active, 4 years reserve.
I posted a suggestion that Selective Service be merged into this article. Both deal with identical topics and I noted a lot of repitition between the two. Jtmichcock 14:13, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I saw where statements in the article had been placed about Clinton's draft deferments as he was attending college had been the source of controversy. If we are going to mention Clinton by name, then in the interests of balance, I think we should also mention how Bush's service in the National Guard has also attracted controversy that wealthy and powerful were able to use the National Guard to get low risk state side assingments.
JesseG 22:32, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
In the interest of being correct it should be stated that Bush was in the Air National Guard. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.193.15.52 ( talk) 04:39, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
I've always wondered this. If you already served your 4 years active duty and 4 years inactive duty, and was honorably discharged, if a draft law is passed, can you actually be redrafted into the military?
Yes, you can be, although it would have to be very bad.. Like the US mainland being invaded or the such.
There must be some WW1/WW2 and WW2/Korea vets who would know this - probably from sad personnel experience. Even Kores/VietNam cases must exist - real young in one war and middle aged in the next. I have never heard that being in a war was a draft deferment - at least officially. A veterans organization would know maybe - neat to see if there were appreciable numbers that we have never heard of ( noone ever thought to ask the question I bet )
159.105.80.141 12:35, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
"Get on Back Home I don't know why I left. But I must've done wrong. And it won't be long 'Till I get on back home. Got a letter in the mail. Go to war or go to jail."<- Frustrated undertone. 97.43.195.22 ( talk) 23:01, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
The first paragraph really misses the point:
"The U.S. armed forces are now designated as "all-volunteer", although, in 2004 as well as during the 1991 Gulf war, some enlisted personnel were involuntarily kept in the Army after their initial voluntary enlistment commitments had expired."
The point of a volunteer force is that its members voluntarily ENTER it. In doing so, they freely and knowingly forego a right to exit at will. Explicitly, enlistment contracts state circumstances wherein they can be extended unilaterally by the government (this can often occur when a ship is at sea, the sailor's enlistment is extended until the ship returns to port.) There is nothing inherently contradictory about this. Please enlighten me why the statement should not be removed? -pbs
This might help provide some explanation, PBS: * The draft would weaken the world's best military, The Wall Street Journal editorial, November 25, 2006 Asteriks 02:42, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
So might this: * Reinstating the military draft by Walter E. Williams Asteriks 15:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I've heard that if you're the only child, or the only male child in some instances, you cannot be drafted. Is this possible? Rockhound 18:48, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Its a myth.
There are currently about 30 non-indexed footnotes in this article. Adding <ref></ref> tags to what's there will take some effort that I can't expend right now (because it's bed time). I'll do it sometime in the next few days if someone else doesn't get to it first. Er iel hon an 07:24, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't know who the quote in the first paragraph is from. If it's just a student at Emerson College, it needs to be removed. No offense to the opinion, but an undergraduate is not a sufficient authority to get top billing on the page. I'm going to remove it but if there is more here, feel free to put it back with an explanation. Papercrab 21:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I wonder if it would be of any interest to post pics of selective service/draft cards from various eras? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.191.19.42 ( talk) 20:13, 12 March 2007 (UTC).
I would like to see a Civil War draft letter - "Welcome from Abe Lincoln...." 159.105.80.141 12:36, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Rangel's draft proposal - sort of tongue in cheek ( I don't think he was serious - maybe he was ) was in a way a sweeping indictment of the system. He also was warning Americans that constant war - big and/or small - would give us a draft when we weren't looking someday. Drafting everyone - no exemptions ( imagine seeing a kid from Greenich ducking the same bullet as a kid from Stamford ( seems almost unAmerican ). Rangel should have beefed up his bill to make sure that mission - ie frontline vs Hawaii - was also random. Imagine a kid from Greenich ducking bullets while a kid from Stamford loinged on the beach ( really perverted if you ask me ). 159.105.80.141 12:41, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I know it is cited - right from our government - but i find it hard to believe that only 2% were draftees in the Civil War. The average age of most of the soldiers from my state was in the mid-teens ( 15 I remember) and I doubt that most of these really volunteered. The replacement number - 6% - seems low. I suspect 15 year old poor boys didn't flock to war without a little push, nor would there have been draft riots from such a happy to serve crowd. 159.105.80.141 18:18, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Please merge relevant content, if any, from Poverty Draft per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Poverty Draft. (If there is nothing to merge, just leave it as a redirect.) Thanks. — Quarl ( talk) 2007-04-08 07:47Z
Is it me, or does the opening paragraph of this website sound familiar (hint: the beginning of this page). They could be taking it from here, but it seems more likely that somebody took it from there. Kasey Klynstra ( talk) 18:07, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Actually, looking at the page, it seems like most of it was just copied and pasted to here or from here. K² ( talk) 18:11, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Are there any laws governing under what conditions a draft can be reinstated? For example, I've heard that, after the disaster of Vietnam, a law was passed that forbade reinstatement of the draft barring an invasion of U.S. soil. In fact, I've heard this so many times, from so many people, that I thought it was true. But there's nothing about that here, and no such law exists as an amendment to the Constitution. Is that whole "invasion of U.S. soil" thing merely the political science equivalent of an urban myth? In any case, if there any laws governing under what conditions a draft can be reinstated, that would seem to be a glaring omission in this article. Minaker ( talk) 12:57, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
I read the Rod Powers article listed in the external links. It's worth pointing out that the article, while highly informative in terms of objective facts, makes an argument (that there is no danger that the draft will be reinstated) which is partially based on extremely flawed logic. Note that I'm not saying whether or not I agree with Mr. Powers's conclusions, I am merely pointing out the problem with the article's logic.
One piece of evidence Powers uses is the current administration's repeated and unequivocal public statements that it does not support the draft, which Powers says makes the administration's views on the draft "very clear." The problem with this argument is: How many times has the current administration repeated unequivocal claims about policy that have been outright lies? I won't get into a "Bush is bad, no he isn't" argument here, but whoever thinks the Bush administration has been 100% truthful in its public statements simply hasn't been paying attention, end of story.
Another piece of evidence Powers uses to prove that the draft will not be reinstated is that reinstatement of the draft would simply be a "bad idea," a major point which Powers then goes on to defend quite convincingly. However, the logical flaw here is that Powers is assuming that just because something is a bad idea means that it won't be put into action. Just some food for thought. Minaker ( talk) 13:46, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
hey the draft does break the constitution because it denies the pursuit of happiness and the right of life liberty
Can somebody have a look at the "draft induced" volunteerism? It's implying a causal relationship I'm unsure exists. If drafted, the Army chose where to send you; if you volunteered, you got some choice. I'm not sure the draft caused it as much as the desire to avoid getting sent to Vietnam (or am I splitting hairs?). TREKphiler hit me ♠ 03:11, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Was that what it acutally said, or has somebody "corrected" it in a false attempt at propriety to make the page suitable for the sensitive eyes of parents of easily-offended six year olds? TREKphiler hit me ♠ 15:06, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The article has a section headed "World War I and World War II" yet it begins with 1926, eight years after World War I ended. There is no discussion of the draft during World War I. I have a copy of the 1917 registration card of my grandfather, so I know some sort of draft existed.
I request that some knowledgeable person add a discussion of the draft for World War I.
Thank you. Boardstiff ( talk) 12:06, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Proposal for a new section (maybe a History subsection) that reviews what terms of conscription, from both gov't and soldier POVs, at each of the periods in the History section. There are some key questions not currently addressed in the current article. Here are a few that could be great for a table. Given a current period:
- age - main exemptions
- how long? - serve in any branch, or is Army the default? - other terms? - basically, what choices if any, if conscript did not enlist voluntarily?
Marquess ( talk) 21:19, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
This was touched on, but not fully developed. Volunteers currently enlist for four years, but have an obligation for six years. Before the Gulf war, this was a moot point, as there was no such thing as "stop loss." So, while previously, people got out after four years and were enrolled in the inactive reserves, this changed after 1990.
Today, people can get out of the service, get married, have kids, and be out of shape, and find themselves ordered back to military service. While this doesn't fit the definition of conscription (they volunteered), the effect is the same. These people (men and women) are sent to the front, and their infants and jobs are left behind. Many return to find their jobs gone, and their spouses divorced.
I believe there needs to be a section that outlines this modern "draft" technique. K5okc ( talk) 17:45, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
The primary google response, I came here looking to understand how the draft worked throughout our history. I was very disappointed with this article. It does not describe in detail how the draft was conducted at various times and spends way too much effort on anti-war and anti-draft narrative. For example, how were local draft boards composed and how did they pick and choose candidates?? What were the mechanics of selection throughout our history, with it's faults and successes. How were men selected just prior to the Vietnam lottery? There's a citation "President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed an executive order on July 11, 1953 that ended the paternity deferment for married men". Paternity deferment?? How did that work? When did that start?? The article does not even list the various Vietnam era classifications and deferments available. Wikipedia is way too political. "Conscription in the United States" should describe the history and mechanics of the draft. The protests and anti-war types and anti-service types had an influence but it should not be the focus of the article. Dubiousofwiki ( talk) 21:10, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
I concur with Dubiousofwiki on all points. Strip out all the pros, cons and political bias, get the facts of the timelines and legal mechanics down correctly and clearly first and put the benefits, detriments and political positions in trailing paragraphs - or, a separate article that refers back to this one. Confusing and incomplete as it is, I am unable to decipher just how many men were taken into the military in the years leading up to and including the first few years of WWII. As "unemployment" changes during this time period are often cited as evidence for one or another current policy, it is important to know just how much of the change was due to military inductions and how much due to employment in the civil and rapidly expanding military industry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.88.1.215 ( talk) 18:44, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
I created Draft board because I think it deserves its own artcicle. I don't really know much about it though, I think some editors of this article could add a lot more to it.-- Profitoftruth85 ( talk) 05:40, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
I was born in January 1957 and upon registering to vote in 1975 I distinctly remember receiving a draft status (inactive). So, I believe that the statement regarding the end of the draft needs to be revised to include at least "early 1957". WallyFromColumbia ( talk) 16:18, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
The second last sentence of the subsection "End of conscription" says "December 1972 saw the last men conscripted, who were born in 1953". I'm almost positive they were born in 1952, not 1953. I was born in 1953, and I distinctly remember that the 1953 cohort was the first from which no one was drafted, although draft priority numbers were assigned by lottery to birth dates for that year. Moreover, as far as I can see, the cited source does not state the birth year of the last people drafted—it just says "The last man was drafted in December 1972 and reported for training in June 1973."
Unless someone can come up with a source that says 1953, I'll remove the phrase "who were born in 1953". Better yet, could someone find a source that confirms it was 1952? Duoduoduo ( talk) 16:45, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
1953 Agreed- I was also born in 1953 and had a very bad draft number. No 1953 folks were drafted, although we were processed for 1-A classification up to a certain draft number (95). See www.sss.gov for confirming data. Importantly, 1953 was the first birth year that college freshmen like me had no student deferment option (196x Supreme Court ruling, right?). It should be noted that nobody has been drafted since the student deferment was ruled unconstitutional (1953 and later). TBILLT ( talk) 01:59, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
"December 28, 1972 had been scheduled to be the last day that draftees would be inducted that year. However, President Nixon declared that day a national day of mourning due to the death of former President Truman, and Federal offices were closed.[84] Men scheduled to report that day were never inducted, since the draft was not resumed in 1973." This appears to be inaccurate. [1] In this link, 646 men were drafted in 1973. Presumably, they would be people who were born in 1953, since they received their draft number the year before and were eligible for the draft. Lhammer610 ( talk) 16:49, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
Not sure if this should be included, but should there be a reference in the article about people who are autistic, and if they are exempt from the draft? Thank you.-- It's Senior Year! ( talk) 23:56, 20 September 2010 (UTC)Chris
For WW II, I was checking the original source - the Wiki article claims that Flynn gives
"n the massive draft of World War II, 50 million men from eighteen to forty-five were registered, 36 million classified, and 10 million inducted.[9]"
However, I just checked his book via a search at amazon, and what I found was
"From October 1940 to 31 March 1947, when the draft finally ended, SS registered 49 million men, selected 19 million, and saw 10 million inducted."
I could not find the 36 million classified quote (not sure even what that means? Is that those who took the reading and math ability tests? Those who were physically examined for fitness?). And as can be seen he says 49 million, not 50 million.
LetterRip ( talk) 03:01, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
under current circumstances, there is little need for the draft, and little demand by the military or Congress. However, the Iraq war taught the lesson that the occupation of a hostile country requires a large military presence -- 100,000 soldiers were too few for Iraq. An American or NATO occupation of some large country is hypothetically possible, and would require hundreds of thousands of new American soldiers, they would not have to be highly trained to operate advanced equipment. They would have to be boots on the ground. That would be the formula for a new draft. Rjensen ( talk) 09:10, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
Last month, Slate published an interview with J.E. McNeil. It looks to me to be a pretty reliable source - a mainstream publication and so on. Perhaps someone who is more interested in the topic might want to include some of the information from the article into this article. — Tom Morris ( talk) 23:34, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
It's true that among drafted men, African-Americans were proportionately over-represented in both world wars. But their overall proportion of the armed forces was actually lower than the percentage of black men of military age in the U.S. at the time. Prior to the outbreak of war, in both cases, the armed forces were overwhelmingly white. During WW I, for example, there were only about 10,000 black soldiers in the Regular Army, which had some 500,000 men by the time voluntary enlists were ended. The National Guard, which brought in about 435,0000 men, included only about 10,000 black personnel. Navy, which ended up with over 500,000 men, also had no more than about 10,000 African-Americans, while the Marine Corps, with nearly 80,000 men, had no black personnel at all. So of the first 1.5 million or so men who were either already in the service when war was declared, or who came in through the National Guard or voluntary enlistments, not more than 30,000 were African Americans. This meant that the pool of draftable men had proportionately more black men than whites, so that African Americans constituted about 13 percent of the men drafted, several points more than their proportion in the general population. I have never seen a full-scale study of this, but see my short essay, "Black Americans and the Draft in World War I",
at http://www.strategypage.com/cic/docs/cic56c.asp
Al-Nofi ( talk) 22:34, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
In the section titled World War II, we have conflicting statements about the maximum registration age:
"requiring the registration of all men eighteen to sixty-four years of age"
"amended the act to require all men from 18 to 65 to register"
I don't know which is correct, so I'm not going to do the edit myself.
By the way, just for those who might enjoy trivia: I happened across this article because we found draft registration cards for one of my wife's relatives from *both* WWI and WWII. The man was born in 1887--just right to have to register for both wars! Don't know whether he served or not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Poihths ( talk • contribs) 23:11, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
The facts stated in the second paragraph are at odds with the facts stated in the Wikipedia article on "The Selective Training and Service Act". Suggest that the differences between these two statements be resolved in favor of the actual facts and brought into line with each other. Also, as with the STSA article, there is no distinction made between draftees and volunteers with both being subsumed under the term and numbers "inducted", a term that can mean either the taking of an individual under coercion of law (a draftee) or the processing of all individuals (draftees and volunteers) entering service regardless of motivation. Those numbers should be separated and reported as such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.88.1.215 ( talk) 18:12, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
The SSA website tells how 39 state governments (this includes Guam and the Virgin Islands) require that minor boys applying for learners permits and first drivers licenses are required to have their personal information sent to the SSA in Washington, D.C. Isn't this technically pedophilia? Godofredo29 ( talk) 08:45, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
7 years later, this completely unreferenced and very POV-pushing section is still kicking around with no improvements. Since no one has stepped up to make it more than just a rant, it needs to go. Likewise, the following section, Controversies since 2003, is full of undue weight and almost completely unnecessary in an article about the draft overall. Most of the points made are little more than trivia anyway; the best thing to do would be to contextualize current events with historical ones. Foxyshadis( talk) 08:44, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Were people who were conscripted, conscripted into just the Army or into the other armed services as well? 76.246.36.153 ( talk) 06:13, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
{{
cite web}}
: External link in |publisher=
(
help)The persons inducted into the Armed Forces for training and service under this title (said sections) shall be assigned to stations or units of such forces. Persons inducted into the land forces of the United States pursuant to this title (said
sections) shall be deemed to be members of the Army of the United States; persons inducted into the naval forces of the United States pursuant to this title (said sections) shall be deemed to be members of the United States Navy or the United States Marine Corps or the United States Coast Guard, as appropriate; and persons inducted into the air forces of the United States pursuant to this title (said
sections) shall be deemed to be members of the Air Force of the United States.
When I was drafted in 1971, while processing at the induction center, some Marines came and called out some of the inductees. They got to be Marines while the rest of us went into the Army. The word was occasionally the Marines fell short on recruitment goals and resorted to the draft to fill out. Wschart ( talk) 18:40, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
I think this word, as the standard opening for letters informing a man of his being drafted, should be mentioned. i believe it was universally recognized, and i suppose feared.( User:Mercurywoodrose) 99.101.138.130 ( talk) 21:36, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
The earliest instance of conscription by the government was the impressment of men into the Continental Navy. If captains of American naval vessels were unable to fill their crew quotas from soliciting volunteers, they were allowed to conscript people into the navy through means known as impressment. For this article to be complete it should include details on impressment by the American navy during its early existance.
XavierGreen ( talk) 00:12, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
The WWI section contains a serious problem.
It currently states the following: "The military attempted to socialize and Americanize young immigrant recruits, not by forcing "angloconformity", but by showing remarkable sensitivity and respect for ethnic values and traditions and a concern for the morale of immigrant troops. Sports activities, keeping immigrant groups together, newspapers in various languages, the assistance of bilingual officers, and ethnic entertainment programs were all employed..."
This is demonstrably not the case and the cite used to back up the claim is not from a serious historian. There was very well documented and systematized Anglo conformity directed at WWI draftees. Sober Secondary sources are full of documentation of this. To discuss that on this articles main page would turn the WWI draft section into a long discussion of ethnic conformity and I propose to just remove the absurd text I cited.14:35, 9 December 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.48.226.29 ( talk)
The entire article reads like journalism, and second-rate journalism at that. "Finally, marriage and family were exempted because of its positive societal consequences." What does that mean - that marriage and family were applicants? "The United States breathed easier with the Korean War Armistice on July 27, 1953; however, technology brought new promises and threats." Breathed easier? The topic is conscription, not constriction. "President Kennedy's decision to send military troops to Vietnam as "advisors" was a signal that Selective Service Director Lewis B. Hershey needed to visit the Oval Office." The inanity of this sentence speaks for itself. And so on. Orthotox ( talk) 18:24, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
In March (in my edit summary I erroneously said April) an editor replaced the first paragraph of the Vietnam War subsection with a long-winded paragraph enclosed in quotes.
I have reverted this. Not because I think the previous paragraph was good (it has had a citation needed tag on it since 2012 and is not terribly well-written), but rather because what it was replaced with seems to be a quote from somewhere -- one that is completely unattributed. Whereas poor prose with weak citations isn't great, possible copyvio is serious.
There were no sources in the user's edits so they don't put the article on firmer footing, but if any editor wants to look at what he wrote and see if any of the content can be salvaged, please do so. Eniagrom ( talk) 08:30, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
Incidentally, that edit was the user's only edit on Wikipedia. Eniagrom ( talk) 08:32, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
Until just now, the article said that
Cite 23 is a 1993 book, The Draft, 1940–1973 by George Q. Flynn. Google Books will shows me snippets of that, and the key passage appears to be on page 85 and reads "During the war the nation had peacefully registered 49 million men, selected 19 million, and inducted 10 million." I have accordingly changed the article to say 49 million.
But as was just pointed out in a Reference Desk thread, this number still seems to be too large. See pages 57 and 156 of this Census Department PDF. If the total US population in 1940 was only about 132 million, and 18.2% of them were aged 15–24 and 30.1% were aged 25–44, then the number of males who were within the range 18–45 at some time when the US was involved in the war should have been something like 32 million, not 49 million. The higher number only makes sense if the draft registration involved a large number of people who were not males aged 18–45 and resident in the US.
I'm flagging this as dubious for now. What's the explanation? -- 76.69.45.64 ( talk) 23:58, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
The Kennedy book title link contains a typo. Where it says Worm it should read World. I would fix it myself, but there is a Soviet Socialist allowed to censor articles lest readers be affronted with the knowledge that the WWII German regime was run by the National Socialist party who would probably undo my correction. Until that entity's credentials are cancelled, I am disinclined to invest much more effort. translator ( talk) 13:32, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
A small missing fact from the article is that Gerald Ford ended Draft registration. The fact that Carter reinstated it is, however, in the article. So, it's a bit confusing. If I can find some reliable sources on Ford's ending the requirement to register for the draft I will add it to the "End of Conscription" section.
ZeroXero ( talk) 17:18, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
The National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2017 [2] (November 30, 2016) contains important information on recent developments in United States conscription policy. Title V, Subtitle F (sections 551–555) is of particular interest. Gmarmstrong ( talk) 03:23, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
Principles for Reforming the Military Selective Service Process [3] (April 3, 2017) is President Trump's message to Congress regarding Title F. Gmarmstrong ( talk) 03:22, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
References
Relative to Russia, during the Vietnam & Korean Wars, there was also a cold war vs USSR. But "cold war" seems inappropriate for Korea & Vietnam with all the body bags. ( PeacePeace ( talk) 16:33, 27 December 2019 (UTC))
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In doing a lookover of writeup of the lottery of 1969, I have not seen the aim of correcting the born-early-in-year problem. This refers to the greater tendency to draft those born earlier in the calendar year. Carlm0404 ( talk) 04:36, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
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I was looking at the Cold War section and saw this reference after wanting to check the source for more context:
I checked out that reference and noticed that a vast amount of material there was identical to what appears in this article. After suspecting a copyright violation, I checked the edit history and found that the material was added by DrBrett1 - presumably the author of the doctoral dissertation - who made 20 edits over a two hour period in July 2008. ( HERE] is his edit history.) I don't have any objection to the material, but I am wondering if this violated WP:OR in that the editor cited his own material rather than the original source. Not sure any of it really matters, but I'll leave this for those who understand the subject matter and Wikipedia policies a bit more than I do. - Location ( talk) 05:09, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
I looked up this Conscription article hoping to answer my question related to this section title, but the article does not supply this information, which in my opinion, it SHOULD. The article makes clear that draft registration was reinstated for birth-year 1960 by Jimmy Carter, but not what earlier birth-year had been the last to HAVE registration previously (the process by which, I presume, one would be issued a "draft card"), and thus, what period of birth-years, ending with 1959 obviously, were exempt. It does address what birth-years men were actually drafted, but not when they no longer had to even register. Somebody please answer my question, and include this information in the article! 2601:545:8201:6290:0:0:0:2EB7 ( talk) 08:48, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
I think the only periods of federal drafting before 1917 were during the Civil War, under the Militia Act of 1862, Enrollment Act of 1863, and Confederate Conscription Acts 1862–1864? I've been trying to get stats on how many men were drafted during this time, and I'm running out of time to continue searching. Some sources that might have this info, if anyone else is interested in tracking it down: