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That 1941 rehearsal photo of von Karajan is in very bad taste. By 1939 all of the Jewish musicians in Germany were dismissed from the orchestra and replaced with gentiles (some of whom were mediocre musicians). Many of those Jews were murdered or waiting to die in concentration camps. The concert for which this rehearsal transpires is for the Nazi elite; some of whom were complicit in the Holocaust. This is NOT accusing Herbert van Karajan of anything. It's the Nazi era photo that is disturbing. David Cary Hart ( talk) 00:38, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Duple/Double: sorry, my ignorance. -- Viajero 09:16 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Do we need to disambiguate this from conducting electricity? Rmhermen 13:23 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I'm intrigued by the information regarding Lully's conducting misadventure -- are there any other known cases of "fatal conducting"? TrbleClef 23:58, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
It also happened often that conductors faint of fatigue on stage, particulary in long operas. (I study conducting, and, as far as I know, it is a widly respected and not uncommon dream of conductors to die on stage, after conducting the last note, although younger ones, like me, say that it would be kinder to die the moment you left the stage and entered your dressing room.)-- Mary C. 18:06, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't think so. Also, we can't say "It also happened often that conductors faint of fatigue on stage, particulary in long operas." In decades of conducting I have never seen or heard of this happening. Gingermint ( talk) 05:17, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
I'm a student in my school band, and we've always learned the downbeat to be the first "half" of the note and the upbeat to be the second "half" For example, if we're in 4/4 time there are four upbeats, four downbeats. Has anyone else taught this way? If so should the article be changed to reflect this? Mutton 12:22, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
This article really makes me cringe. A very large percentage of everything after the history section violates WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:OR. I hope we can clean up this very important topic. MarkBuckles (talk) 05:31, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
-Really? I don't see how it does. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.177.28.141 ( talk • contribs) 18:04, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Okeydoke. Here you go:
Hey, there's tons of good information in this article and I thank its contributors for that! There's just some that needs to be written in a more encyclopedic and neutral manner. If there's something you disagree with, let me know and let's figure out a way to say what needs to be said in a way that works for everybody. Best,
MarkBuckles
(talk)
17:06, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
An extremely clear point must be made that choral conductors use a completely different language (and some may say nuance) of gesture based on the fact that choral conductors are required to *show* the sound they want. The human voice is the only instrument that is not "man-made" per se and the scope of the choral conductor also includes "teaching" singers how to produce the sound the conductor requests. By contrast, an orchestral conductor is standing in front of a group of people who already know how to play their instruments and have been taught how to achieve any effect through technique. The vocal standard is not so cut and dry, and the responsibilities of the choral conductor (while to the superficial eye manages fewer people and/or "events") is responsible for showing much greater detail by nature of the instruments involved. Such detail is regularly unnecessary for an orchestral conductor to show because of both delegation and the simple fact that it can all be mentioned as an aside in rehearsal. Singers regularly rely upon the gesture to help them produce the requested sound, while more often instrumentalists are able to create that sound on their own -- in fact showing TOO much in the gesture with instrumentalists can be both patronizing and confusing, as it is often unclear, based on the sheer number or parts, who that particular gesture is meant for without prior rehearsal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashuduanna ( talk • contribs) 08:50, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
I've had a go at improving some of these points and have removed the POV tag. I feel some of the sections still need to be made clearer for the non-specialist (e.g. subdivsion), but I feel much better about the general content and tone of the article. If I've done anything contentious, please let me know and let's find a way to make it work. MarkBuckles (talk) 17:10, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The grip of the baton is a contentious issue that varies from conductor to conductor. Despite a wide variety of styles, a number of standard conventions have developed.
Anybody care to expand that? :) The externally linked article has a very good description of good conductor grip. I understand why the sentence is so very vague (as to limit POV bias), but more info is always nice, don't you think?
A number of standard conventions have developed... which are...? =o) Kareeser| Talk! 05:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I think this talk of "standard conventions" having "developed" is fiction. Gingermint ( talk) 05:19, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to see a bit about how the general public, as part of their ignorance of "classical music", has no idea what conductors do; it's a staple of low-grade stand-up comedy that "the guy just stands there waving his arms while the musicians do all the work". There was a Saturday Night Live sketch about a "Conductors Club", where a bunch of guys met in somebody's living room, compared batons, and mimed vigorously while Beethoven's 5th was on the record player. Duh-di-di-DUuh! Duh-di-di-DUUUuhh!! jnestorius( talk) 17:43, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Having the diagrams of beat patterns on the page seems to imply that they are the standard way of conducting; there is a variety of styles that disagree with this. For example, the majority of my teachers have placed all the beats in the center. Maybe it should be noted that the patterns shown are from a specific style? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.218.223.167 ( talk) 21:06, 3 March 2007 (UTC).
These beat patterns are just a general guide to gesture which is mutually understood by both instrumentalists and singers. It is simply a guide and should be deviated from based on required interpretation and effect. You may liken these patterns to a basic dress pattern; Each pattern must be modified to suit the size and silhouette of each particular person (or sonic event, in this case), and deviation from the standards is a gesture in itself to create a desired effect. The pattern a conductor chooses is absolutely inconsequential as long as the gesture communicates his interpretation. This is most often accomplished through rehearsal. Conductors will simply say "I'm beating two here." It is up to the individual performer to in turn use that as a guide to keep time with the rest of the group and guide his own interpretation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashuduanna ( talk • contribs) 09:00, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
The text says beat patterns for the commonest meters are shown, but none is shown for 4/4. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.186.166.197 ( talk) 04:26, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
In Italian literally means master. Although "teacher" is a common usage, perhaps Master is a better translation for this page? Or that alternate meaning ought to be mentioned? Calaf 07:23, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
It would be fun if someone could add how to become a conductor. Jack Daw 22:43, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
There isn't a standard way. Some people study at college or university, but with a few exceptions that sort of training has not provided us with great conductors. Some fall into the business, others conduct as an extension of their composing activities and some... well, there are a lot of different ways. Gingermint ( talk) 05:24, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
The Palais Garnier is much after Lully's time and I've removed it; he hit himself in a church anyway. If it was meant that the Opera using a large baton through the mid 19c, this should be documented as well as clarified. Sparafucil 12:19, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi,
in all the orchestra performances I've seen, the players look at their score sheet and not the conductor 99% of the time. So, what's the purpose of the conductor?
--Murmur 81.208.83.232 12:39, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
MatthieuV ( talk) 02:40, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
The score is simply a list of instructions. How those instructions are implemented is the realm of the conductor. It's sort of like having a map with no key, and you need the help of someone to interpret those markings so you can make sense of them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashuduanna ( talk • contribs) 09:02, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Where is List of conductors ? I worked on that page a lot. There were well over a thousand names on the list. Now it doesn't come up on "go" or "search" and is in red instead of blue. In general, how does one find a lost article? Abstrator 22:32, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your response. I have now read the debate over the deletion, which I was unaware of at the time. I strongly disagree with the decision and want to contest it. Having read policy and deletion review pages, I'm still not sure where I'm supposed to post my views. For now, I will post them here:
1) I strongly recommend looking at that puny debate [1] and noting the weak, often flip, reasoning offered to justify discarding the long work of many editors. It hardly seems that the detractors understood what they were looking at.
2) One of the objections was that it supposedly duplicated Category:Conductors. In reality, the deleted list was far more extensive, and the information was not transferred to Category:Conductors before being deleted. How extraordinarily irresponsible! Maybe the list should be incorporated in the category. Or maybe it is worthy of being improved as an article. Not a reason to delete entirely.
3) Someone objected that the list included names of amateur conductors, and cited one example. I doubt there were many, but any such names could be removed rather than deleting the whole list. I, for one, checked a lot of names for their validity on various counts. This was a pseudo-argument.
4) Someone quoted from the introduction, "Inclusion on this list does not necessariy suggest conducting was their primary occupation or talent." arguing that this makes the list "hopelessly broad". I was the one who added that statement, with the intention to point out that some conductors are better known for another occupation or talent, such as composer or musician.
For example: Felix Mendelssohn and Pierre Boulez are better known as composers, but also as noted conductors. Daniel Barenboim and Vladimir Ashkenazy are known both as conductors and pianists. That is what is documented on the list. Perhaps this could be pointed out better in the statement, but this is not a reason to delete the list.
5) The lack of sources was mentioned. Perhaps someone would suggest how to reference each name on the list. Is that done for all lists on Wikipedia? Since most of the names are linked to articles, the articles justify those names, and work should be done to source articles that need it. And:
6) Someone objected that there were many names in the red. There's a lot of red all over Wikipedia. The solution is to write articles to link, not to delete valid valuable lists. Perhaps some would prefer to put some names into black, but I challenge anyone to find many invalid names on that list, and if you do, maybe you should delete them, but with great care. One good way to check is to Google (for example) "Stephen Gunzenhauser" conductor. I checked a vast number and only once in a while found a questionable one. I wrote articles for a bunch of them.
7) Some complained that the article is "difficult to maintain". I rather doubt the complainers were the ones maintaining it. I periodically checked new additions made by others. Other than that, suggesting improvements (and giving them time) or leaving it as it is would be called for, not simply deleting the valuable work already done.
8) Here's a beauty: Someone complained that it wasn't "necessary to have an article listing conductors, their orchestras, their dates of birth and death, etc., since there's nothing to be gained by comparing one to another." Sounds as if this person just isn't interested in the subject. I suggest that adding information on orchestras, dates, etc. would be a good project for Wikipedia. Rather than deleting the article, add to it and reformat it for best effect.
9) Someone's contribution to the debate was to write: "Can you believe the author forgot Copper?" Is this debator one of the people who voted? First of all, how could a serious Wikipedian refer to "the author", when it was written by many? Could someone tell me about this "Copper"? Yes, I did forget that one.
10) I wonder why a six month old version was the one chosen to archive at The Wayback Machine here. There were improvements made between March and the September deletion. There is a somewhat later version thanks to Answers.com . See: [2]. Hopefully, there is still copy of the latest at Wikipedia, but if someone had managed to excise it completely, we can work form the Answers.com version when we reinstate the list. Abstrator 00:56, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry but this section is being written as a personal essay, and is not in an encyclopaedic tone, much also duplicates material in teh existing "Technique" section. David Underdown ( talk) 10:02, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
This mentioned source is not accessible. Does anybody have any other proof that those conductors did not use the baton? Thanks -- Biopresto ( talk) 18:41, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
I deleted the sentence: "Kapellmeister simply refers to the music director of a church or chapel (Kapell)." In German, the term Kapelle (sic!) is used for both a small church and a musical ensemble. Both meanings have the same roots, but Kapellmeister was only used from the 16th century on when Kapelle could designate a secular, e.g. court orchestra as well as a church ensemble.
-- Pjt56 ( talk) 15:14, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Help! If there are any bored editors looking for a project, I rescued this article from oblivion... but I do not have the proper musical background to finish it. If anyone has expertise here, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. -- Oliver Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 09:17, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
While textbooks and teachers say that the first beat of a measure should be a downbeat, in practice many conductors beat "up" on the first beat - although not necessarily all the time. If you watch Zubin Mehta or film of Leonard Bernstein you'll see the effect I'm talking about. Many people will swear that no real conductor would ever do this, but if you watch carefully you'll see that it's very common. In fact, one choral conductor who usually conducts on the downbeat complained that whenever he conducted an orchestra they'd come in late, effectively forcing him to conduct on the upbeat. To see the kind of thing I'm talking about have a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41-f2o-1W4A If you tap along with the beat you'll see that Mehta's baton is up on the beat rather than down. My guess is that conductors do this because a beat up is more visible to a large group than a beat down. I know this complicates the explanation of baton movements, but it's the real world of conducting, not just something out of a textbook. I think some comment in the article about this reality would be in order. I can't give any specific reference for this, it's just something you can observe with your own eyes. Gerry246 ( talk) 04:37, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
In my years of experience in various orchestras, I can say that most conductors say that their downbeat is at the bottom of the stroke, but it's actually at the top. If you actually play the downbeat when the baton is at the bottom, they will accuse you of playing ahead of the beat. 68.196.1.236 ( talk) 17:59, 13 April 2021 (UTC)captcrisis
The list of conductors offered in the "history" paragraph is bizarre. I don't think anyone would consider Boulez to be one of the most important conductors of his era, and certainly not Harnoncourt. Where are Furtwaengler, Karajan, Szell, Solti? It seems silly to offer a hunt-and-peck list of five or six conductors of wildly varying stature without articulating why they were selected for mention above all others. 76.90.232.8 ( talk) 05:26, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
I know there are many more male conductors than female, especially for orchetras and symphonies. Anybody know the woman:man ratio? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexir11 ( talk • contribs) 05:10, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
Nice to know classical orchestral music under conductors is still alive and well in the USA. I wonder what happened to it in Europe after the death of Furtwangler? Apart from someone called Karajan who seems to have conducted in Berlin, it looks as if it died the death. Delahays ( talk) 17:44, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
category:conductors. Daft. In ictu oculi ( talk) 09:33, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
There isn't one, at present -- just on the technique of conducting.
What do conductors do? Furtwangler spoke to Albert Speer toward the end of World War II, saying "What will become of my orchestra? I'm responsible for them." Speer arranged it so that the musicians would not be drafted.
This anecdote (reported by Speer) reveals that in some contexts conductors have administrative, musical, or even personal responsibilities, far beyond the technique of "conducting". 69.119.169.59 ( talk) 02:53, 15 April 2013 (UTC)captcrisis
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://musiced.about.com/od/musiccareer1/p/theconductor.htm. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Alfietucker ( talk) 19:40, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
It is my opinion that the top photo of the article should include a baton. What are your views? Arfæst ! 23:09, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
It's definitely interesting to read about women conductors and black conductors, but why does it have to be in the article twice (once in the history section, once in a section of its own)? This makes the article unbalanced. Roughly one fourth of the entire article currently deals with this matter.
I see the "neutrality" tag has recently been put up there, but nobody has bothered to give an explanation here. --
84.190.92.41 (
talk)
16:21, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
The German Wiki carries a separate article ("Schlagfigur", see URL below) on technique (conducting pattern) that I think should ideally crosslink to the "Technique" section of this article. Is that possible?
Here is the URL to German-language article: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlagfigur
94.223.163.195 ( talk) 09:41, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Conducting's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "theguardian.com":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 12:21, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
Miguel da Graça Moura (Porto, 1947) is a Portuguese conductor and Jesús López Cobos (born 25 February 1940) is a Spanish conductor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.2.5.53 ( talk) 19:33, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
I can't find anything on that. Does a conductor need to know how to play (all? most?) instruments (violin, piano, wind brass etc.) or does he just have a PhD in stick waving? Try to do a search, there's no returns. Why would a guy get all the glory when he does pretty much nothing? (I mean from what I read here, he just tells the violins when to start playing in relation to the trumpets but it seems they should know that already and the job is utterly useless and probably overpaid!) And how does he get his training? What does his sheet say? Does he even read music? I mean the musicians already have notes such as "staccato" or "crescendo" to tell them how to play, fast, slow, increasing the tempo, fade away etc. So, again: does a conductor need to know how to play any instrument or anyone with a musical ear off the streets can climb that podium and start waving a twig? Just tired of those glorifying such a position that, for all accounts and purposes, appears to be completely useless. Yet they clap for him instead of the musicians. (Or, rather, the guy turns and bows at the end, as if he is taking all the glory, while the musicians remain seated. I say he should instead step down from the podium so the audience has a clear view on the musicians, who ought to rise and bow.) Prove me wrong. 108.178.137.210 ( talk) 19:38, 31 January 2021 (UTC)Signed my post [1]
References
it is a form of musical pieces played together to form sound vibrations 102.134.175.220 ( talk) 17:45, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 January 2024 and 9 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Audreyhoggatt, Alexnelson04, Cadenrchase, Ainsleyeross ( article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Sanna Pederson Eroica sonata ( talk) 01:37, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
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That 1941 rehearsal photo of von Karajan is in very bad taste. By 1939 all of the Jewish musicians in Germany were dismissed from the orchestra and replaced with gentiles (some of whom were mediocre musicians). Many of those Jews were murdered or waiting to die in concentration camps. The concert for which this rehearsal transpires is for the Nazi elite; some of whom were complicit in the Holocaust. This is NOT accusing Herbert van Karajan of anything. It's the Nazi era photo that is disturbing. David Cary Hart ( talk) 00:38, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Duple/Double: sorry, my ignorance. -- Viajero 09:16 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Do we need to disambiguate this from conducting electricity? Rmhermen 13:23 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I'm intrigued by the information regarding Lully's conducting misadventure -- are there any other known cases of "fatal conducting"? TrbleClef 23:58, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
It also happened often that conductors faint of fatigue on stage, particulary in long operas. (I study conducting, and, as far as I know, it is a widly respected and not uncommon dream of conductors to die on stage, after conducting the last note, although younger ones, like me, say that it would be kinder to die the moment you left the stage and entered your dressing room.)-- Mary C. 18:06, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't think so. Also, we can't say "It also happened often that conductors faint of fatigue on stage, particulary in long operas." In decades of conducting I have never seen or heard of this happening. Gingermint ( talk) 05:17, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
I'm a student in my school band, and we've always learned the downbeat to be the first "half" of the note and the upbeat to be the second "half" For example, if we're in 4/4 time there are four upbeats, four downbeats. Has anyone else taught this way? If so should the article be changed to reflect this? Mutton 12:22, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
This article really makes me cringe. A very large percentage of everything after the history section violates WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:OR. I hope we can clean up this very important topic. MarkBuckles (talk) 05:31, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
-Really? I don't see how it does. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.177.28.141 ( talk • contribs) 18:04, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Okeydoke. Here you go:
Hey, there's tons of good information in this article and I thank its contributors for that! There's just some that needs to be written in a more encyclopedic and neutral manner. If there's something you disagree with, let me know and let's figure out a way to say what needs to be said in a way that works for everybody. Best,
MarkBuckles
(talk)
17:06, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
An extremely clear point must be made that choral conductors use a completely different language (and some may say nuance) of gesture based on the fact that choral conductors are required to *show* the sound they want. The human voice is the only instrument that is not "man-made" per se and the scope of the choral conductor also includes "teaching" singers how to produce the sound the conductor requests. By contrast, an orchestral conductor is standing in front of a group of people who already know how to play their instruments and have been taught how to achieve any effect through technique. The vocal standard is not so cut and dry, and the responsibilities of the choral conductor (while to the superficial eye manages fewer people and/or "events") is responsible for showing much greater detail by nature of the instruments involved. Such detail is regularly unnecessary for an orchestral conductor to show because of both delegation and the simple fact that it can all be mentioned as an aside in rehearsal. Singers regularly rely upon the gesture to help them produce the requested sound, while more often instrumentalists are able to create that sound on their own -- in fact showing TOO much in the gesture with instrumentalists can be both patronizing and confusing, as it is often unclear, based on the sheer number or parts, who that particular gesture is meant for without prior rehearsal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashuduanna ( talk • contribs) 08:50, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
I've had a go at improving some of these points and have removed the POV tag. I feel some of the sections still need to be made clearer for the non-specialist (e.g. subdivsion), but I feel much better about the general content and tone of the article. If I've done anything contentious, please let me know and let's find a way to make it work. MarkBuckles (talk) 17:10, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The grip of the baton is a contentious issue that varies from conductor to conductor. Despite a wide variety of styles, a number of standard conventions have developed.
Anybody care to expand that? :) The externally linked article has a very good description of good conductor grip. I understand why the sentence is so very vague (as to limit POV bias), but more info is always nice, don't you think?
A number of standard conventions have developed... which are...? =o) Kareeser| Talk! 05:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I think this talk of "standard conventions" having "developed" is fiction. Gingermint ( talk) 05:19, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to see a bit about how the general public, as part of their ignorance of "classical music", has no idea what conductors do; it's a staple of low-grade stand-up comedy that "the guy just stands there waving his arms while the musicians do all the work". There was a Saturday Night Live sketch about a "Conductors Club", where a bunch of guys met in somebody's living room, compared batons, and mimed vigorously while Beethoven's 5th was on the record player. Duh-di-di-DUuh! Duh-di-di-DUUUuhh!! jnestorius( talk) 17:43, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Having the diagrams of beat patterns on the page seems to imply that they are the standard way of conducting; there is a variety of styles that disagree with this. For example, the majority of my teachers have placed all the beats in the center. Maybe it should be noted that the patterns shown are from a specific style? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.218.223.167 ( talk) 21:06, 3 March 2007 (UTC).
These beat patterns are just a general guide to gesture which is mutually understood by both instrumentalists and singers. It is simply a guide and should be deviated from based on required interpretation and effect. You may liken these patterns to a basic dress pattern; Each pattern must be modified to suit the size and silhouette of each particular person (or sonic event, in this case), and deviation from the standards is a gesture in itself to create a desired effect. The pattern a conductor chooses is absolutely inconsequential as long as the gesture communicates his interpretation. This is most often accomplished through rehearsal. Conductors will simply say "I'm beating two here." It is up to the individual performer to in turn use that as a guide to keep time with the rest of the group and guide his own interpretation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashuduanna ( talk • contribs) 09:00, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
The text says beat patterns for the commonest meters are shown, but none is shown for 4/4. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.186.166.197 ( talk) 04:26, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
In Italian literally means master. Although "teacher" is a common usage, perhaps Master is a better translation for this page? Or that alternate meaning ought to be mentioned? Calaf 07:23, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
It would be fun if someone could add how to become a conductor. Jack Daw 22:43, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
There isn't a standard way. Some people study at college or university, but with a few exceptions that sort of training has not provided us with great conductors. Some fall into the business, others conduct as an extension of their composing activities and some... well, there are a lot of different ways. Gingermint ( talk) 05:24, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
The Palais Garnier is much after Lully's time and I've removed it; he hit himself in a church anyway. If it was meant that the Opera using a large baton through the mid 19c, this should be documented as well as clarified. Sparafucil 12:19, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi,
in all the orchestra performances I've seen, the players look at their score sheet and not the conductor 99% of the time. So, what's the purpose of the conductor?
--Murmur 81.208.83.232 12:39, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
MatthieuV ( talk) 02:40, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
The score is simply a list of instructions. How those instructions are implemented is the realm of the conductor. It's sort of like having a map with no key, and you need the help of someone to interpret those markings so you can make sense of them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashuduanna ( talk • contribs) 09:02, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Where is List of conductors ? I worked on that page a lot. There were well over a thousand names on the list. Now it doesn't come up on "go" or "search" and is in red instead of blue. In general, how does one find a lost article? Abstrator 22:32, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your response. I have now read the debate over the deletion, which I was unaware of at the time. I strongly disagree with the decision and want to contest it. Having read policy and deletion review pages, I'm still not sure where I'm supposed to post my views. For now, I will post them here:
1) I strongly recommend looking at that puny debate [1] and noting the weak, often flip, reasoning offered to justify discarding the long work of many editors. It hardly seems that the detractors understood what they were looking at.
2) One of the objections was that it supposedly duplicated Category:Conductors. In reality, the deleted list was far more extensive, and the information was not transferred to Category:Conductors before being deleted. How extraordinarily irresponsible! Maybe the list should be incorporated in the category. Or maybe it is worthy of being improved as an article. Not a reason to delete entirely.
3) Someone objected that the list included names of amateur conductors, and cited one example. I doubt there were many, but any such names could be removed rather than deleting the whole list. I, for one, checked a lot of names for their validity on various counts. This was a pseudo-argument.
4) Someone quoted from the introduction, "Inclusion on this list does not necessariy suggest conducting was their primary occupation or talent." arguing that this makes the list "hopelessly broad". I was the one who added that statement, with the intention to point out that some conductors are better known for another occupation or talent, such as composer or musician.
For example: Felix Mendelssohn and Pierre Boulez are better known as composers, but also as noted conductors. Daniel Barenboim and Vladimir Ashkenazy are known both as conductors and pianists. That is what is documented on the list. Perhaps this could be pointed out better in the statement, but this is not a reason to delete the list.
5) The lack of sources was mentioned. Perhaps someone would suggest how to reference each name on the list. Is that done for all lists on Wikipedia? Since most of the names are linked to articles, the articles justify those names, and work should be done to source articles that need it. And:
6) Someone objected that there were many names in the red. There's a lot of red all over Wikipedia. The solution is to write articles to link, not to delete valid valuable lists. Perhaps some would prefer to put some names into black, but I challenge anyone to find many invalid names on that list, and if you do, maybe you should delete them, but with great care. One good way to check is to Google (for example) "Stephen Gunzenhauser" conductor. I checked a vast number and only once in a while found a questionable one. I wrote articles for a bunch of them.
7) Some complained that the article is "difficult to maintain". I rather doubt the complainers were the ones maintaining it. I periodically checked new additions made by others. Other than that, suggesting improvements (and giving them time) or leaving it as it is would be called for, not simply deleting the valuable work already done.
8) Here's a beauty: Someone complained that it wasn't "necessary to have an article listing conductors, their orchestras, their dates of birth and death, etc., since there's nothing to be gained by comparing one to another." Sounds as if this person just isn't interested in the subject. I suggest that adding information on orchestras, dates, etc. would be a good project for Wikipedia. Rather than deleting the article, add to it and reformat it for best effect.
9) Someone's contribution to the debate was to write: "Can you believe the author forgot Copper?" Is this debator one of the people who voted? First of all, how could a serious Wikipedian refer to "the author", when it was written by many? Could someone tell me about this "Copper"? Yes, I did forget that one.
10) I wonder why a six month old version was the one chosen to archive at The Wayback Machine here. There were improvements made between March and the September deletion. There is a somewhat later version thanks to Answers.com . See: [2]. Hopefully, there is still copy of the latest at Wikipedia, but if someone had managed to excise it completely, we can work form the Answers.com version when we reinstate the list. Abstrator 00:56, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry but this section is being written as a personal essay, and is not in an encyclopaedic tone, much also duplicates material in teh existing "Technique" section. David Underdown ( talk) 10:02, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
This mentioned source is not accessible. Does anybody have any other proof that those conductors did not use the baton? Thanks -- Biopresto ( talk) 18:41, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
I deleted the sentence: "Kapellmeister simply refers to the music director of a church or chapel (Kapell)." In German, the term Kapelle (sic!) is used for both a small church and a musical ensemble. Both meanings have the same roots, but Kapellmeister was only used from the 16th century on when Kapelle could designate a secular, e.g. court orchestra as well as a church ensemble.
-- Pjt56 ( talk) 15:14, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Help! If there are any bored editors looking for a project, I rescued this article from oblivion... but I do not have the proper musical background to finish it. If anyone has expertise here, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. -- Oliver Twisted (Talk) (Stuff) 09:17, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
While textbooks and teachers say that the first beat of a measure should be a downbeat, in practice many conductors beat "up" on the first beat - although not necessarily all the time. If you watch Zubin Mehta or film of Leonard Bernstein you'll see the effect I'm talking about. Many people will swear that no real conductor would ever do this, but if you watch carefully you'll see that it's very common. In fact, one choral conductor who usually conducts on the downbeat complained that whenever he conducted an orchestra they'd come in late, effectively forcing him to conduct on the upbeat. To see the kind of thing I'm talking about have a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41-f2o-1W4A If you tap along with the beat you'll see that Mehta's baton is up on the beat rather than down. My guess is that conductors do this because a beat up is more visible to a large group than a beat down. I know this complicates the explanation of baton movements, but it's the real world of conducting, not just something out of a textbook. I think some comment in the article about this reality would be in order. I can't give any specific reference for this, it's just something you can observe with your own eyes. Gerry246 ( talk) 04:37, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
In my years of experience in various orchestras, I can say that most conductors say that their downbeat is at the bottom of the stroke, but it's actually at the top. If you actually play the downbeat when the baton is at the bottom, they will accuse you of playing ahead of the beat. 68.196.1.236 ( talk) 17:59, 13 April 2021 (UTC)captcrisis
The list of conductors offered in the "history" paragraph is bizarre. I don't think anyone would consider Boulez to be one of the most important conductors of his era, and certainly not Harnoncourt. Where are Furtwaengler, Karajan, Szell, Solti? It seems silly to offer a hunt-and-peck list of five or six conductors of wildly varying stature without articulating why they were selected for mention above all others. 76.90.232.8 ( talk) 05:26, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
I know there are many more male conductors than female, especially for orchetras and symphonies. Anybody know the woman:man ratio? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexir11 ( talk • contribs) 05:10, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
Nice to know classical orchestral music under conductors is still alive and well in the USA. I wonder what happened to it in Europe after the death of Furtwangler? Apart from someone called Karajan who seems to have conducted in Berlin, it looks as if it died the death. Delahays ( talk) 17:44, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
category:conductors. Daft. In ictu oculi ( talk) 09:33, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
There isn't one, at present -- just on the technique of conducting.
What do conductors do? Furtwangler spoke to Albert Speer toward the end of World War II, saying "What will become of my orchestra? I'm responsible for them." Speer arranged it so that the musicians would not be drafted.
This anecdote (reported by Speer) reveals that in some contexts conductors have administrative, musical, or even personal responsibilities, far beyond the technique of "conducting". 69.119.169.59 ( talk) 02:53, 15 April 2013 (UTC)captcrisis
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://musiced.about.com/od/musiccareer1/p/theconductor.htm. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Alfietucker ( talk) 19:40, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
It is my opinion that the top photo of the article should include a baton. What are your views? Arfæst ! 23:09, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
It's definitely interesting to read about women conductors and black conductors, but why does it have to be in the article twice (once in the history section, once in a section of its own)? This makes the article unbalanced. Roughly one fourth of the entire article currently deals with this matter.
I see the "neutrality" tag has recently been put up there, but nobody has bothered to give an explanation here. --
84.190.92.41 (
talk)
16:21, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
The German Wiki carries a separate article ("Schlagfigur", see URL below) on technique (conducting pattern) that I think should ideally crosslink to the "Technique" section of this article. Is that possible?
Here is the URL to German-language article: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlagfigur
94.223.163.195 ( talk) 09:41, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Conducting's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "theguardian.com":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 12:21, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
Miguel da Graça Moura (Porto, 1947) is a Portuguese conductor and Jesús López Cobos (born 25 February 1940) is a Spanish conductor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.2.5.53 ( talk) 19:33, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
I can't find anything on that. Does a conductor need to know how to play (all? most?) instruments (violin, piano, wind brass etc.) or does he just have a PhD in stick waving? Try to do a search, there's no returns. Why would a guy get all the glory when he does pretty much nothing? (I mean from what I read here, he just tells the violins when to start playing in relation to the trumpets but it seems they should know that already and the job is utterly useless and probably overpaid!) And how does he get his training? What does his sheet say? Does he even read music? I mean the musicians already have notes such as "staccato" or "crescendo" to tell them how to play, fast, slow, increasing the tempo, fade away etc. So, again: does a conductor need to know how to play any instrument or anyone with a musical ear off the streets can climb that podium and start waving a twig? Just tired of those glorifying such a position that, for all accounts and purposes, appears to be completely useless. Yet they clap for him instead of the musicians. (Or, rather, the guy turns and bows at the end, as if he is taking all the glory, while the musicians remain seated. I say he should instead step down from the podium so the audience has a clear view on the musicians, who ought to rise and bow.) Prove me wrong. 108.178.137.210 ( talk) 19:38, 31 January 2021 (UTC)Signed my post [1]
References
it is a form of musical pieces played together to form sound vibrations 102.134.175.220 ( talk) 17:45, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 January 2024 and 9 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Audreyhoggatt, Alexnelson04, Cadenrchase, Ainsleyeross ( article contribs).
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