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Two links to anti conceptual art sites were deleted. These are relevant in an examination of conceptual art, particularly as anti conceptual art is also included in the article, so I have reinstated them. Any discussion on this can be held here.
Tyrenius 03:38, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
I think there is a real problem to be addressed in the way Emin and Hirst, and the backlash against YBA, feature so strongly at the end of this article. While the "Anti-Conceptual" section might have a place somewhere in this story, as it stands the comments and actions mentioned so far refer only to the backlash against YBA and those artists the Stuckists have deemed "conceptual", while the article itself sets out a definition of Conceptual art and criteria by which these very artists should be excluded (along with their detractors, by extension). This is clear because, a) the article identifies Conceptual art with a consistently negative or indifferent attitude to the art object, whereas it is the very materiality, the choice of object, of Hirst's, and particularly Emin's, art that, I would argue, so offends the sensibility of their critics, and, b) the article points to the central place that collaboration, discussion and social engagement held in the work of the Conceptual artists, whereas the YBA bonded over their dislike of theory and the over-intellectualisation of art, and thus their work is usually inward-looking and personal in nature.
This is a difficult issue because the Conceptual tag seems to have stuck to YBA, for whatever reason (could be the fault of the Stuckists), and so, though I'm tempted to remove all reference to them, it will be seen as an omission by many readers. And yet their presence in the article confounds much that it (correctly) sets out. Kramer J 20:50, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
I am a young British artist certainly much younger than Emin or Hurst, I have to say that I despise most conceptual art and view it as the domain of the establishment and those with no real talent. I not a stuckist either though and I believe it is misleading to suggest that anyone opposed to conceptual art is a stuckist. Rather the anticonceptual art movement is spawned by a wide variety of artists from different diciplines, some very innovative, who make all kinds of art but who feel oppressed by the domination of conceptualists in the art world (especially in the uK). In this respect I am glad that the anti conceptual art links have been left in as I believe that they are an important and relevant commentary on conceptual art and todays' art world. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.85.12.211 ( talk • contribs) .
sure - I wasn't refering to the article but responding to comments made in this discussion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.15.254.115 ( talk • contribs) .
Conceptual art was the first truly international avant-garde art movement, and perhaps the last of the great avant-gardes of the twentieth century; "Modernism's nervous breakdown", as Art & Language termed it. The anonymous editor who deleted the entire "Controversy in the UK" section is correct; the Turner Prize and UK public reaction to it is a parochial issue, a tabloid news media "beat up" that has become an annual ritual for the Murdoch press in the UK and its readership, irrelevant to the history and unfolding of the Conceptual art movement.
Unless legitimate counter-arguments by registered editors are lodged in this forum so that the issue may be seriously debated, I believe I have put enough arguments forward to support the deletion or removal (to another article?) of this section. Kramer J 10:09, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Analysis of arguments for deletion of controversy section:
The material is properly referenced, unlike most of the information in the article, which can therefore be removed, if any editor chooses to do so. I suggest it is more profitable to add to the article and reference it, rather than to battle for the removal of parts of it which properly belong. If any substantiation with references can be provided for the fact that public reaction to conceptual art is indeed "irrelevant to the history and unfolding" of it, then that statement can be included in the article, in addition to counter-views, but at the moment it remains pure POV.
Tyrenius 03:49, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Thank you Tyrenius for making some good points. However, I feel you misunderstand my arguments and that your attribution of POV is a little looose. All of my contributions are factual, NPOV and verifiable, and if I haven't verified something yet it is due to time constraints and not because I don't have references. My quibble with the section in question is precisely that it is the only POV section of the article. That's what is so disconcerting. If you're keen to leave it in, then I will indeed endeavour to add some balance, but I didn't want to have to go down that track. Up until that section, and the previous gratuitous Schopenhaur quote, the article is neutral, factual, and represents no bias (except for your latest addition, which is a matter I'll come to in a moment). And I have read the Wiki policies you've singled out, by the way.
I suggest you re-read this article that you cite [10]. Somehow you've summarised this whole article as:
The inception of the term in the 1960s referred to a narrow practice of idea-based art. Through its association with the Young British Artists and the Turner Prize during the 1990s, its popular usage, particularly in the UK, developed as as synonym for all contemporary art which did not practice the traditional skills of painting and sculpture.
The article actually says:
In the tabloid press in particular, ‘conceptual’ is used as a blanket term to describe any contemporary art, often in a derogatory fashion.
It also makes the point that the Turner prize is not a conceptual art prize, and that previous winners have had varied practices. Outside of the UK tabloid press, there is as yet no clear synonymity between "conceptual art" and contemporary art, so do we want to use this wiki to further legitimise the conflation of the two terms, particularly when the discourse from which the conflation derives is one of derision?
On the matter of POV, the characterisation of early conceptual art as "a narrow practice of idea-based art" can hardly be called a neutral description. It was the first wave of conceptual artists, after all, who blew art wide open, making it possible for artists like Hirst and Emin to even have a practice today. I wouldn't call what they were doing "narrow". Kramer J 18:34, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I have adjusted the "controversy" intro to remove what I regard as a tone of bias. It is not enough to simply report the existence of the backlash. By not adequately contextualising the use of the word "conceptual" as a term of derision in the UK and the origin of that usage in the tabloid media, you let the reader assume it is the consensus of scholarly opinion that "conceptual" is interchangeable with "contemporary" art. This is not the case. If colloquially the terms are interchangeable, then the fact it is a colloquial usage should be mentioned. Kramer J 03:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
All good and true, and I don't have problem with your edit. I think the article as a whole is the better for this productive debate. Kramer J 04:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
The references to the UK YBAs are relevant. The term 'conceptual' is still perjoratively used in the UK press to describe all sorts of contemporary art. I understand that this may be a parochial concern, but it is certainly an advantage to allow UK users to understand the wider context.-- Ethicoaestheticist 22:10, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I have added a quote by Joseph Kosuth which I feel is essential in establishing Duchamp's influence on later conceptual artists. Also, I concur with Kramer J that the omission of Kosuth in the timeline is appalling. I will attempt to add some artists and works in the timeline in later posts this Fall.
Mcameronboyd
04:08, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
The word concept has more than one meaning. The most sensible being "that which is common to several perceptions." The word idea has many meanings, from mental images to metaphysical forms. Words are mere signs that designate concepts and ideas. Conceptual art mixes these ambiguities together. The resulting product is made manifest for the public's evaluation. Lestrade 18:08, 30 August 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
It is an interesting proposal to mount a critique of the first wave of conceptual artists based on their conflation of "idea" and "concept", though I'm not sure I entirely agree with your account of the distinction between the two terms. I don't really wish to debate that here, but it might be worth pointing out that the words are commonly interchangeable in everyday English usage, and thus it's not surprising that the early conceptual artists and writers adopted one, or both, without too much regard for a distinction between the terms. As you can see from the bibliography attached to the article, both labels were deployed in the earliest anthologies, although the word "conceptual" seems to have been more in favour, and this has stuck; nobody really calls it "idea art" anymore. The pertinent point is that both "idea art" and "conceptual art" were current labels during the early discourse of conceptualism, a fact of history rather than a significant theoretical issue for the early project of Conceptualism. However, some of the early writers did have a preference for one term over the other--they didn't all deem the words interchangeable--and I suspect you may find some discussion of their reasoning on this in the primary source material. Kramer J 14:10, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I didn't say it was valueless, I said it was an interesting idea. My point was simply that the article deals with the movement and its history, and the two terms were used interchangebly for much of that early history. However, I also ended by saying that the notion of distinguishing ideas from concepts may well have arisen as a topic of debate among the artists at the time. If you go to the source material and find whether and where this is the case, it could make an excellent contribution to the article. To simply mount your own case against the movement based on your thoughts regarding "ideas", "concepts" and Schopenhauer would be P.O.V., as well as original research, and therefore invalid in this context. Kramer J 18:25, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
So, the meaning (semantics) of the word conceptual has no place in the article or on the talk page. The value of the activity called conceptual art is also a forbidden topic. This reminds me on a story I once heard that was titled The Emperor's New Clothes. Lestrade 21:02, 26 October 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
As Kramer J has said above, "Conceptual art was the first truly international avant-garde art movement, and perhaps the last of the great avant-gardes of the twentieth century", what this article needs is not the removal of material, but the addition of substantial material to depict the birth, growth, transformation, impact, perception and reception of the art form. Tyrenius 14:33, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
At the beginning of Talk:Conceptual Art there is a box with a question mark. It reads: “It is requested that a photograph or photographs be included in this article to improve its quality.” Such a remark is an indication of the wooden iron contradiction in the words “Conceptual Art.” If User:Kramer J hadn’t deleted Schopenhauer’s remark, a reader would know why there is such a natural human desire and need to see a photograph or image of Conceptual Art. Art must be based on perceptions, not concepts. Schopenhauer asserted that concepts are useful in life, as well as necessary and productive in science. However, according to him, they are “eternally barren and unproductive in art.” User:Kramer J judged that incisive remark to be pointless and irrelevant. User:Kramer J also claimed that comments for or against Conceptual Art are infinite. “Why not include comments by Wittgenstein, Descartes, or Arthur Danto?”, he asks. But if these thinkers have important and clarifying insights and thoughts on the subject of Conceptual Art, why not include them in the article? Would a few dozen of these words harm the article? I have seen serious Wikipedia articles that contain long lists of references to popular culture, television, and movies. If some screenwriter mentions Einstein in his silly script, then the Wikipedia article finds room to mention it without concern for its being “pointless and irrelevant.” But, if a real thinker has a dozen words to say about the relationship between concepts and art, there is always a User:Kramer J who will quickly delete it. So the request to see Conceptual Art will remain at the head of the Talk page. But it would be understandable to a reader who could have benefited from Schopenhauer’s remark about the futility of basing art on mere abstract concepts and the words that are used to designate them. Lestrade 18:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
I admit my ignorance of the aforementioned Schopenhauer quote. However, I disagree with Lestrade that "Art must be based on perceptions, not concepts." The putative assessment (or Duchamp's word "consecration") of art is based on perception, after the fact. What art itself ought to be based on is highly variable and influenced by epistemic conditions and individual theories. The legislation of flawed "absolutes" that specify what art ought to entail are what helped to produce conceptual art. Lestrade re-states (I believe) a portion of the quote in question where Schopenhauer states that concepts are "eternally barren and unproductive in art.” As represented, this can be logically disproved, as actions are preceded by conscious thought (to act). At the very least, this makes the quote suspect in relevance and I would not recommend reinstatement.
Further, if we are including quotes of any nature in the article, I believe they should come from conceptual artists themselves or, in the exceptionally rare case, from someone writing specifically and substantively about the topic of Conceptual Art. Mcameronboyd 14:55, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
According to User:Mcameronboyd it is from LeWitt's "1969 piece 'Sentences on conceptual Art.' " As can be noted, LeWitt is as talented at making sentences as he is at making art. Lestrade 01:01, 13 September 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
The term "Conceptual Art" is an oxymoron or wooden iron. A concept is a general thought that consists of that which is common to several perceptions. For example, I see a poodle, a hound, and a pit bull. If I think of the general individual that is common to all three, I have the concept dog. For purposes of communication, concepts are designated by names. Therefore, Conceptual Art would either show an individual perception or a name. If it shows an individual perception, it is visual art, not Conceptual Art. If it shows a name, then it is a mere sign, similar to a billboard containing words. The adjective "conceptual" is the opposite of the noun "art." That results in its being an oxymoron, or contradiction between an adjective and a noun. Lestrade 17:15, 20 September 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
Re: the concept and the oxymoron. Jonathan Janes (?spelling) had an interesting discussion in his book "The origin of consciousness in the breakdown of the bi-cameral mind" which revolutionised the way i looked at poetry: the paraphrand and the metaphrand. These two may be useful in your thoughts on general versus specific terms. However, I agree with tyrenius that this ain't the place. In the end words are not pictures, though they are the only tools we have for communicating thoughts about art to each other, they are at best barely adequate. Lgh 04:45, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I have not seen a response to my query on the addition of Natasha Vita-More who I believe to be an exemplar conceptual artist. She is the first artist to conceptualize a future human in her well-received and highly publicized Primo Posthuman which has appeared in BBC, PBS, TLC, several times in Wired magazine, New York Times, London Guardian, amongst others. (The Atlantic Monthly magazine called her a cross between Duchamp and Madonna.) Regardless of whether or not authors are interested in the future, Vita-More is a pioneer and known conceptual thinker amongst scientists, technologists and artists who are interested in the future. I'd like to see her added to the list of artists in this article. Avantguarde 23:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Should artists be added to the list of Conceptual artists if they don't already have an article on Wikipedia? Isn't it the article on Wikipedia that establishes notability for an artist, as far as Wikipedia is concerned? I removed "red lettered" artists from the list but another editor put them back. Any opinions on this? Bus stop 23:53, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I find red links to artist's names problematic. That is because the product of the artist is for sale. Wikipedia is therefore just advertising the artist's work, unless, of course, notability is established. That is why I think an editor should be required to first establish an article for an artist before adding a red linked name to a list. Bus stop 00:15, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I suggest leaving in the reference to Metro Pictures Gallery (1990) as it was (and still is) the rare New York gallery to focus on conceptual art in the late 80s and 90s. I.A.Contino ( talk) 08:51, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
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Long lists make for boring reading and are not good form in a Wikipedia article. Individuals and examples of work should be contextualised as part of the history of the movement, and if they cannot be so contextualised then they don't belong in the article. A much shorter article that can be kept accurate is preferable to the inclusion of lengthy lists that only serve as invitations to opportunists to slot themselves in, in an attempt to legitimise themselves historically. This has been a problem over the several years of the life of this article and it's time to put a stop to it. Dr John (formerly Kramer J) ( talk) 08:17, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Kramer, Greenberg talks about "mannerisms" into which some painting has "degenerated". That is something that I would cite from Greenberg's essay that would tend to spur artists on to make a certain type of painting. But it is utterly unclear what type of painting such "coaching" would lead to. All that we can know is that it would lead to a painting that avoided "mannerisms." That leaves the field pretty wide open for the types of painting that might result. On the other hand, I don't really see, in this essay anyway, a positive direction being offered. Bus stop ( talk) 03:15, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
"...seminal Pop and Conceptual artist" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bus stop ( talk • contribs)
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Although conceptual art is at least as controversial as any other prominent new philosophy of art has been since at least the 19th century, there is currently *no* meaningful criticism in the article, no discussion of controversy around conceptual art except a few scattered apologetics for it, no discussion on artistic debate about conceptual art and little to no discussion of counter-movements. Currently, this is essentially an advertisement for conceptual art, not an encyclopedic treatment. Going over the edit history, the addition of criticism, even sourced, is consistently removed. This results in a badly unbalanced article that is strongly POV-pushing. This article is currently well below the quality standards that should be expected of it for the above reasons. 82.176.221.176 ( talk) 05:47, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
I think it would be good for somebody with the knowledge and patience required to go through the Further Reading section and thin it out a bit. There is a lot there and I suspect that some are minor publications of marginal value. We want to direct our readers to a few relevant publications not saddle them with a mile long reading list that might not all be worth their time. DanielRigal ( talk) 11:43, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
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Two links to anti conceptual art sites were deleted. These are relevant in an examination of conceptual art, particularly as anti conceptual art is also included in the article, so I have reinstated them. Any discussion on this can be held here.
Tyrenius 03:38, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
I think there is a real problem to be addressed in the way Emin and Hirst, and the backlash against YBA, feature so strongly at the end of this article. While the "Anti-Conceptual" section might have a place somewhere in this story, as it stands the comments and actions mentioned so far refer only to the backlash against YBA and those artists the Stuckists have deemed "conceptual", while the article itself sets out a definition of Conceptual art and criteria by which these very artists should be excluded (along with their detractors, by extension). This is clear because, a) the article identifies Conceptual art with a consistently negative or indifferent attitude to the art object, whereas it is the very materiality, the choice of object, of Hirst's, and particularly Emin's, art that, I would argue, so offends the sensibility of their critics, and, b) the article points to the central place that collaboration, discussion and social engagement held in the work of the Conceptual artists, whereas the YBA bonded over their dislike of theory and the over-intellectualisation of art, and thus their work is usually inward-looking and personal in nature.
This is a difficult issue because the Conceptual tag seems to have stuck to YBA, for whatever reason (could be the fault of the Stuckists), and so, though I'm tempted to remove all reference to them, it will be seen as an omission by many readers. And yet their presence in the article confounds much that it (correctly) sets out. Kramer J 20:50, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
I am a young British artist certainly much younger than Emin or Hurst, I have to say that I despise most conceptual art and view it as the domain of the establishment and those with no real talent. I not a stuckist either though and I believe it is misleading to suggest that anyone opposed to conceptual art is a stuckist. Rather the anticonceptual art movement is spawned by a wide variety of artists from different diciplines, some very innovative, who make all kinds of art but who feel oppressed by the domination of conceptualists in the art world (especially in the uK). In this respect I am glad that the anti conceptual art links have been left in as I believe that they are an important and relevant commentary on conceptual art and todays' art world. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.85.12.211 ( talk • contribs) .
sure - I wasn't refering to the article but responding to comments made in this discussion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.15.254.115 ( talk • contribs) .
Conceptual art was the first truly international avant-garde art movement, and perhaps the last of the great avant-gardes of the twentieth century; "Modernism's nervous breakdown", as Art & Language termed it. The anonymous editor who deleted the entire "Controversy in the UK" section is correct; the Turner Prize and UK public reaction to it is a parochial issue, a tabloid news media "beat up" that has become an annual ritual for the Murdoch press in the UK and its readership, irrelevant to the history and unfolding of the Conceptual art movement.
Unless legitimate counter-arguments by registered editors are lodged in this forum so that the issue may be seriously debated, I believe I have put enough arguments forward to support the deletion or removal (to another article?) of this section. Kramer J 10:09, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Analysis of arguments for deletion of controversy section:
The material is properly referenced, unlike most of the information in the article, which can therefore be removed, if any editor chooses to do so. I suggest it is more profitable to add to the article and reference it, rather than to battle for the removal of parts of it which properly belong. If any substantiation with references can be provided for the fact that public reaction to conceptual art is indeed "irrelevant to the history and unfolding" of it, then that statement can be included in the article, in addition to counter-views, but at the moment it remains pure POV.
Tyrenius 03:49, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Thank you Tyrenius for making some good points. However, I feel you misunderstand my arguments and that your attribution of POV is a little looose. All of my contributions are factual, NPOV and verifiable, and if I haven't verified something yet it is due to time constraints and not because I don't have references. My quibble with the section in question is precisely that it is the only POV section of the article. That's what is so disconcerting. If you're keen to leave it in, then I will indeed endeavour to add some balance, but I didn't want to have to go down that track. Up until that section, and the previous gratuitous Schopenhaur quote, the article is neutral, factual, and represents no bias (except for your latest addition, which is a matter I'll come to in a moment). And I have read the Wiki policies you've singled out, by the way.
I suggest you re-read this article that you cite [10]. Somehow you've summarised this whole article as:
The inception of the term in the 1960s referred to a narrow practice of idea-based art. Through its association with the Young British Artists and the Turner Prize during the 1990s, its popular usage, particularly in the UK, developed as as synonym for all contemporary art which did not practice the traditional skills of painting and sculpture.
The article actually says:
In the tabloid press in particular, ‘conceptual’ is used as a blanket term to describe any contemporary art, often in a derogatory fashion.
It also makes the point that the Turner prize is not a conceptual art prize, and that previous winners have had varied practices. Outside of the UK tabloid press, there is as yet no clear synonymity between "conceptual art" and contemporary art, so do we want to use this wiki to further legitimise the conflation of the two terms, particularly when the discourse from which the conflation derives is one of derision?
On the matter of POV, the characterisation of early conceptual art as "a narrow practice of idea-based art" can hardly be called a neutral description. It was the first wave of conceptual artists, after all, who blew art wide open, making it possible for artists like Hirst and Emin to even have a practice today. I wouldn't call what they were doing "narrow". Kramer J 18:34, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I have adjusted the "controversy" intro to remove what I regard as a tone of bias. It is not enough to simply report the existence of the backlash. By not adequately contextualising the use of the word "conceptual" as a term of derision in the UK and the origin of that usage in the tabloid media, you let the reader assume it is the consensus of scholarly opinion that "conceptual" is interchangeable with "contemporary" art. This is not the case. If colloquially the terms are interchangeable, then the fact it is a colloquial usage should be mentioned. Kramer J 03:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
All good and true, and I don't have problem with your edit. I think the article as a whole is the better for this productive debate. Kramer J 04:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
The references to the UK YBAs are relevant. The term 'conceptual' is still perjoratively used in the UK press to describe all sorts of contemporary art. I understand that this may be a parochial concern, but it is certainly an advantage to allow UK users to understand the wider context.-- Ethicoaestheticist 22:10, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I have added a quote by Joseph Kosuth which I feel is essential in establishing Duchamp's influence on later conceptual artists. Also, I concur with Kramer J that the omission of Kosuth in the timeline is appalling. I will attempt to add some artists and works in the timeline in later posts this Fall.
Mcameronboyd
04:08, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
The word concept has more than one meaning. The most sensible being "that which is common to several perceptions." The word idea has many meanings, from mental images to metaphysical forms. Words are mere signs that designate concepts and ideas. Conceptual art mixes these ambiguities together. The resulting product is made manifest for the public's evaluation. Lestrade 18:08, 30 August 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
It is an interesting proposal to mount a critique of the first wave of conceptual artists based on their conflation of "idea" and "concept", though I'm not sure I entirely agree with your account of the distinction between the two terms. I don't really wish to debate that here, but it might be worth pointing out that the words are commonly interchangeable in everyday English usage, and thus it's not surprising that the early conceptual artists and writers adopted one, or both, without too much regard for a distinction between the terms. As you can see from the bibliography attached to the article, both labels were deployed in the earliest anthologies, although the word "conceptual" seems to have been more in favour, and this has stuck; nobody really calls it "idea art" anymore. The pertinent point is that both "idea art" and "conceptual art" were current labels during the early discourse of conceptualism, a fact of history rather than a significant theoretical issue for the early project of Conceptualism. However, some of the early writers did have a preference for one term over the other--they didn't all deem the words interchangeable--and I suspect you may find some discussion of their reasoning on this in the primary source material. Kramer J 14:10, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I didn't say it was valueless, I said it was an interesting idea. My point was simply that the article deals with the movement and its history, and the two terms were used interchangebly for much of that early history. However, I also ended by saying that the notion of distinguishing ideas from concepts may well have arisen as a topic of debate among the artists at the time. If you go to the source material and find whether and where this is the case, it could make an excellent contribution to the article. To simply mount your own case against the movement based on your thoughts regarding "ideas", "concepts" and Schopenhauer would be P.O.V., as well as original research, and therefore invalid in this context. Kramer J 18:25, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
So, the meaning (semantics) of the word conceptual has no place in the article or on the talk page. The value of the activity called conceptual art is also a forbidden topic. This reminds me on a story I once heard that was titled The Emperor's New Clothes. Lestrade 21:02, 26 October 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
As Kramer J has said above, "Conceptual art was the first truly international avant-garde art movement, and perhaps the last of the great avant-gardes of the twentieth century", what this article needs is not the removal of material, but the addition of substantial material to depict the birth, growth, transformation, impact, perception and reception of the art form. Tyrenius 14:33, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
At the beginning of Talk:Conceptual Art there is a box with a question mark. It reads: “It is requested that a photograph or photographs be included in this article to improve its quality.” Such a remark is an indication of the wooden iron contradiction in the words “Conceptual Art.” If User:Kramer J hadn’t deleted Schopenhauer’s remark, a reader would know why there is such a natural human desire and need to see a photograph or image of Conceptual Art. Art must be based on perceptions, not concepts. Schopenhauer asserted that concepts are useful in life, as well as necessary and productive in science. However, according to him, they are “eternally barren and unproductive in art.” User:Kramer J judged that incisive remark to be pointless and irrelevant. User:Kramer J also claimed that comments for or against Conceptual Art are infinite. “Why not include comments by Wittgenstein, Descartes, or Arthur Danto?”, he asks. But if these thinkers have important and clarifying insights and thoughts on the subject of Conceptual Art, why not include them in the article? Would a few dozen of these words harm the article? I have seen serious Wikipedia articles that contain long lists of references to popular culture, television, and movies. If some screenwriter mentions Einstein in his silly script, then the Wikipedia article finds room to mention it without concern for its being “pointless and irrelevant.” But, if a real thinker has a dozen words to say about the relationship between concepts and art, there is always a User:Kramer J who will quickly delete it. So the request to see Conceptual Art will remain at the head of the Talk page. But it would be understandable to a reader who could have benefited from Schopenhauer’s remark about the futility of basing art on mere abstract concepts and the words that are used to designate them. Lestrade 18:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
I admit my ignorance of the aforementioned Schopenhauer quote. However, I disagree with Lestrade that "Art must be based on perceptions, not concepts." The putative assessment (or Duchamp's word "consecration") of art is based on perception, after the fact. What art itself ought to be based on is highly variable and influenced by epistemic conditions and individual theories. The legislation of flawed "absolutes" that specify what art ought to entail are what helped to produce conceptual art. Lestrade re-states (I believe) a portion of the quote in question where Schopenhauer states that concepts are "eternally barren and unproductive in art.” As represented, this can be logically disproved, as actions are preceded by conscious thought (to act). At the very least, this makes the quote suspect in relevance and I would not recommend reinstatement.
Further, if we are including quotes of any nature in the article, I believe they should come from conceptual artists themselves or, in the exceptionally rare case, from someone writing specifically and substantively about the topic of Conceptual Art. Mcameronboyd 14:55, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
According to User:Mcameronboyd it is from LeWitt's "1969 piece 'Sentences on conceptual Art.' " As can be noted, LeWitt is as talented at making sentences as he is at making art. Lestrade 01:01, 13 September 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
The term "Conceptual Art" is an oxymoron or wooden iron. A concept is a general thought that consists of that which is common to several perceptions. For example, I see a poodle, a hound, and a pit bull. If I think of the general individual that is common to all three, I have the concept dog. For purposes of communication, concepts are designated by names. Therefore, Conceptual Art would either show an individual perception or a name. If it shows an individual perception, it is visual art, not Conceptual Art. If it shows a name, then it is a mere sign, similar to a billboard containing words. The adjective "conceptual" is the opposite of the noun "art." That results in its being an oxymoron, or contradiction between an adjective and a noun. Lestrade 17:15, 20 September 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
Re: the concept and the oxymoron. Jonathan Janes (?spelling) had an interesting discussion in his book "The origin of consciousness in the breakdown of the bi-cameral mind" which revolutionised the way i looked at poetry: the paraphrand and the metaphrand. These two may be useful in your thoughts on general versus specific terms. However, I agree with tyrenius that this ain't the place. In the end words are not pictures, though they are the only tools we have for communicating thoughts about art to each other, they are at best barely adequate. Lgh 04:45, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I have not seen a response to my query on the addition of Natasha Vita-More who I believe to be an exemplar conceptual artist. She is the first artist to conceptualize a future human in her well-received and highly publicized Primo Posthuman which has appeared in BBC, PBS, TLC, several times in Wired magazine, New York Times, London Guardian, amongst others. (The Atlantic Monthly magazine called her a cross between Duchamp and Madonna.) Regardless of whether or not authors are interested in the future, Vita-More is a pioneer and known conceptual thinker amongst scientists, technologists and artists who are interested in the future. I'd like to see her added to the list of artists in this article. Avantguarde 23:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Should artists be added to the list of Conceptual artists if they don't already have an article on Wikipedia? Isn't it the article on Wikipedia that establishes notability for an artist, as far as Wikipedia is concerned? I removed "red lettered" artists from the list but another editor put them back. Any opinions on this? Bus stop 23:53, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I find red links to artist's names problematic. That is because the product of the artist is for sale. Wikipedia is therefore just advertising the artist's work, unless, of course, notability is established. That is why I think an editor should be required to first establish an article for an artist before adding a red linked name to a list. Bus stop 00:15, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I suggest leaving in the reference to Metro Pictures Gallery (1990) as it was (and still is) the rare New York gallery to focus on conceptual art in the late 80s and 90s. I.A.Contino ( talk) 08:51, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
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Long lists make for boring reading and are not good form in a Wikipedia article. Individuals and examples of work should be contextualised as part of the history of the movement, and if they cannot be so contextualised then they don't belong in the article. A much shorter article that can be kept accurate is preferable to the inclusion of lengthy lists that only serve as invitations to opportunists to slot themselves in, in an attempt to legitimise themselves historically. This has been a problem over the several years of the life of this article and it's time to put a stop to it. Dr John (formerly Kramer J) ( talk) 08:17, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Kramer, Greenberg talks about "mannerisms" into which some painting has "degenerated". That is something that I would cite from Greenberg's essay that would tend to spur artists on to make a certain type of painting. But it is utterly unclear what type of painting such "coaching" would lead to. All that we can know is that it would lead to a painting that avoided "mannerisms." That leaves the field pretty wide open for the types of painting that might result. On the other hand, I don't really see, in this essay anyway, a positive direction being offered. Bus stop ( talk) 03:15, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
"...seminal Pop and Conceptual artist" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bus stop ( talk • contribs)
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Although conceptual art is at least as controversial as any other prominent new philosophy of art has been since at least the 19th century, there is currently *no* meaningful criticism in the article, no discussion of controversy around conceptual art except a few scattered apologetics for it, no discussion on artistic debate about conceptual art and little to no discussion of counter-movements. Currently, this is essentially an advertisement for conceptual art, not an encyclopedic treatment. Going over the edit history, the addition of criticism, even sourced, is consistently removed. This results in a badly unbalanced article that is strongly POV-pushing. This article is currently well below the quality standards that should be expected of it for the above reasons. 82.176.221.176 ( talk) 05:47, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
I think it would be good for somebody with the knowledge and patience required to go through the Further Reading section and thin it out a bit. There is a lot there and I suspect that some are minor publications of marginal value. We want to direct our readers to a few relevant publications not saddle them with a mile long reading list that might not all be worth their time. DanielRigal ( talk) 11:43, 16 May 2024 (UTC)