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...* Most wiki links are nominals (nouns and noun phrases) or words and phrases derived from nominals. With a few exceptions where something else just works better. Let's not forget, the goal is comprehension and convenience for the readers. Peter Grey 21:19, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
In two Commonwealth Realms -- Papua New Guinea and the Solomon Islands -- the governors-general are elected by the parliament. I think this should be mentioned here, but I admit that I don't understand how this practice reconciles with the legal theory of the Westminster system. Is the Queen appointing the G-Gs in those realms on the advice of her Parliament, rather than of her government? Or has the Queen's reserve powers in those realms been restrained by constitutional law? -- Jfruh 21:02, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
While I understand why Ireland is on the list of former commonwealth realms, I believe that Ireland's departure from the commonwealth in 1949 predated the existence of the term "Commonwealth Realm" altogether (the term Dominion was in use at the time). In addition, Ireland's political setup for the bulk of this period -- with an elected President coexisting with the monarch -- is different from any other Commonwealth Realm. At the risk of adding extraneous material to this page, I think this stuff ought to be mentioned at least -- Jfruh 21:05, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Nice map, whoever did it, but you left off St. Vincent and the Grenadines
Regarding the Monarch of Australia, would it not be more appropriate to title her Queen Elizabeth I (Queen of Australia) rather than Queen Elizabeth II (Queen of England)? After all, there was no previous Elizabeth who would have reigned over Australia even as a colony. In fact, since Federation 1901, should not the previous Kings of Australia (not of England) too (since after Federation Australia was now an independent country with its own monarch head of state, separate from England) should have had their titles re-ordered in the Australian context by ordinal number?
And since the creation of the British Commonwealth, should not other Commonwealth countries now being independent (previous simply existing as colonies of a "empire") now also be titled Elizabeth I to reflect that she is now a monarch of many independent countries rather than previously Queen Elizabeth II of England via her former colonial empire? And since she is the "Queen of the Commonwealth", a new position from during her reign and should, while keeping her as Queen Elizabeth II as Queen of England, then also title her in the Commonwealth context as Elizabeth I of the British Commonwealth?
And the "republics" in the commonwealth, while they have elected presidents by the people, are they not actually under the Queen as her popularly elected representatives of the Head of the Commonwealth, with the difference from monarchies like Australia being that her representative as Head of State is appointed and delegated by her personally as as Governor-General?
In terms of the seats of power, the Commonwealth republican presidents and the Governor-Generals of the Commonwealth monarchies may difffer, but in terms of the seat of delegation, functionally I would see them to be the same: still representing the Monarch under the Commonwealth. Under my understanding then, the Queen would legally (though probably politically no be able to do so) have the authority to dismiss any of her representatives under her delegation of each independent country of the Commonwealth, such as perhaps Robert Mugabe or, in earlier times, Idi Amin? Interesting question!
As a corrolary regarding Australian (and other Commonwealth country) coins, would they be not genuinely actual "Legal Tender" in Australia since it is her image as Queen of England, Head of State of England (Elizabeth II) which bears all Australian coins and not her image as Queen of Australia, Head of State of Australia (Elizabeth I) which ought to be borne on Australian coins? This would lead it to consider that "Australian" coins are not realy Australian Legal Tender but rather they are English Legal Tender but denoted in terms of Australian Dollar / cents denominations! The Australian $5 note would still be Austraian Legal Tender since the image of the Queen does not specify the name. Nor does it make sense for the Australian Prime Minister to swear his oath to the Queen of England (Elizabeth II). Why not swear his oath to the Queen of Australia (Elizabeth I) if he is the Prime Minister of Australia?
Sincerely, Vytautas B. Radzivanas, Perth, Western Australia
Thanks for your comments Chris. I had come up with my comments above looking at a similar situation in another part of Europe. Lithuania and Poland were several hundred years in a commonwealth situation where the two countries were independent, but shared a common monarch - most of the time! This was because the Grand Duke Jogaila of Lithuania married Hedwig the Queen of Poland and therefore Jogaila (in Polish: Jagiello) became concurrently but separately the Head of State of each of the two countries: King of the Kingom of Poland, and Grand Duke of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. My understanding is that Poland being a Kingdom, the King was in a dynastic succession, but Lithuania being a Grand Duchy (a different form of statehood) had as its Head of State being the Grand Duke, where the all various Dukes of the Lithuanian federal duchies state in council would acclaim one of them to be the "first of equals" to be the Grand Duke, or the Head of State OF Lithuania. In most cases, the hereditary accession of the King of Poland would be acceeded by the Lithuanian Dukes to also be the Grand Duke of Lithuania. While in the same Grand Ducal (extended) Family, there were a few cases when the person of the King of Poland and the Grand Duke of Lithuania were not the same person, and as a result, there were different ordinal numberings among the later same Kings/Grand Dukes. Sometimes there were staggered reigns in each of the two countries. The most notable was where the Lithuanian Grand Duke Zygimantas I was never a King of Poland, and King John Albrecht of Poland was never a Grand Duke of Lithuania. When in a later century Lithuania's Grand Duke Zygimantas II became King of Poland, as Poland's king there was never any previous Zygimantas (name in Polish: Sigismund), so while he was Zygimantas II Grand Duke of Lithuania, he was Zygimantas I (Sigismund I) King of Poland.
When eventually the dynasty died without issue, Poland was no longer able to continue dynastic succession,and joined with Lithuania's "accession of first among equal Dukes" idea for the 2 countries to develop a common voting by nobility to elect a common monarch as King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania, which included nobles from each country as Kings / Grand Dukes of the day. Later, royalty from other countries were elected as common King / Grand Duke of each of the two countries and wound up having common monarchs from Saxony, France, Sweeden, Hungary etc. In a sense, it was no longer a "monarchy" but almost a republic with a presidential head of state "for life term" elected from among royalty of any country. In the 1790's, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was partitioned and annexed by 3 growing powers in Europe: Russia, Prussia, and Austria (commonly described as "partitions of Poland") and both countries ceased to exist as sovereign states until their independences were restored after World War I, and after the Soviet occupations and sattelite statuses from World War II, the now are fully independent since 1990.
I believe there was also precedent for different ordinal numbers of common monarchs reigning in several countries concurrently, evain in Great Britain, where I believe that a James in Scotland and England had different ordinal numbers at the same time, and that also led me to the question I raised above.
Sincerely, Vytautas B. Radzivanas Perth, Western Australia
The Commonwealth Realms choose to have a common numbering. No, it's not perfectly logical, it's better because it helps give the monarchy some of its human charm. (It could be interesting if we ever have a "King Louis", because Canada has already had a Louis XV.) Peter Grey 06:58, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I raised this issue in regards to Canada on the Elizabeth II talk page. The outcome of the discussion was that Elizabeth is entitled to call herself whatever she wants in any of her kingdoms. So she is still Elizabeth II. Earlier I thought this was otherwise but I was wrong. So Chris Bennet, you are incorrect about her needing to be called merely Elizabeth in Australia. FDR | FDR 16:20 May 26, 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I should have read the discussion more carefully. FDR FDR:MyTalk 15:58 May 27, 2006 (UTC)
Just made a small change to this part - Victoria certainly didn't vote in favour - Only the ACT did. Further to that the 'defeated by a narrow margin overall' is certainly debateable - given the double majority required. 220.235.156.94 12:10, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
In case I am wrong in assumption of a prior merger being in force or if such a split is contemplated in the future, IMHO as someone who writes frequently in matters historical, this particular section ought to be in it's own article.
This (following) duplicates a post to user talk:Mel Etitis as my UK 'goto guy'. Best regards, Fra nkB
Hi! This is of national interest to you, so I'll pick on you about this vexation!
Thanks, Best! Fra nkB 13:50, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
There is a discussion re whether Canada is a kingdom at Talk:Canada#Canada_is_not_a_kingdom. As this affects all realms, it is relevant here & discussion should probably continue here. -- JimWae 20:11, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
This article is a little inaccurate in how it defines "realm", but I can't think off-hand how to reword it simply to avoid the problem.
For example, the very first paragraph currently says this:
A Commonwealth Realm is any one of the 16 sovereign states of the Commonwealth of Nations that recognise Queen Elizabeth II as their Queen and head of state.
The problem with this and other examples that equate being a realm with a sovereign state is the Realm of New Zealand. That realm is not a state, but is virtually a mini version of the Commonwealth in its own right, being made up of three sovereign states and two dependencies:
Constitutionally, the Cook Islands and Niue are equal partners with New Zealand proper within the Realm of New Zealand, and are sovereign states in their own right. Possibly the only way to neatly reflect this in the article is to insert a footnote at the very first reference to realms being sovereign states. Any other approach would probably involve quite clunky phrasing.
Silverhelm 12:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC).
The long form full name is the
Dominion of New Zealand and its Dependencies. The Royal Proclamation of September 8, 1907 declaring "the Colony of New Zealand shall be known as the Dominion of New Zealand" on and after September 26, 1907 was never formally revoked.
The Cook Islands, Niue (an Associated State), Tokelau and the Ross Dependency are the Dependencies of the Dominion of New Zealand. Someday in the future, Niue will change its Associated State Status, and gain Dominion Status (or perhaps a Republic within the British Commonwealth of Nations).
70.30.193.143 18:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I am researching the history and constitutional law of the British Commonwealth of Nations. The name of this organisation used to be refered to as the British Empire. Then following the formation of the British Dominions of the Dominion of Canada (1867), the Commonwealth of Australia (1901), the Dominion of New Zealand (1907), and the Union of South Africa (1910), the organisation was refered to as the British Empire-Commonwealth. This hyphenated term was used to denote that the majority of the territory was still under the direct government of the United Kingdom (i.e., the British Empire part), whereas the British Dominions were independent countries within the British Empire (i.e., the British Commonwealth part).
On December 6, 1921, the Irish Free State was formed and granted Dominion Status as well. This left the Mother-Country with the name of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The Irish Free State unambigiously retained its Dominion Status (1921-1937), and later left the British Commonwealth in 1949, to become the Republic of Ireland. During this period on August 15, 1947, the British colony of the Empire of India was partitioned into the Dominion of India, and the Dominion of Pakistan (who later became the Republic of India, and the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, in 1950 and 1956, repectively).
Following the partition of 1947, the majority of the organisations' territory were no longer British colonies, and were in fact British Dominions. Thus the usage of the term British Empire was discontinued, and it became known as the British Commonwealth of Nations (later in fact the term Commonwealth of Nations has become prevalent).
Therefore, up until the Royal Styles and Titles Act 1953, the term Dominion Status was in use, and completely understood in legal and constitutonal terms. The intent of the framers of the Royal Styles and Titles Act 1953 is clearly and explicitly expressed in the body of the text. Nowhere within the text did it state the intent to abolish the term Dominion Status, and replace it with term known as a Commonwealth Realm.
So, can anyone give me a legal reference to begin my research into the origin and legal definition of the term Commonwealth Realm? If other Wikipedians would be so kind, I would be most greatful indeed.
70.30.193.143 20:47, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Is "commonwealth realm" a legal term at all? It was my understanding that it was really just a common description. john k 18:02, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Gbambino has objected to Lholden's edit that "This [i.e. replacement of monarchy by republic] was especially true in post-colonial Africa, whose leaders often regarded the monarchy as a colonial hangover, preferring to patriate the office of Head of State."
Initially he objected on the grounds that it was POV. When I pointed out that Lholden's statement is about historical motivation, and therefore not POV, he changed his objection to the grounds that "Evidence is needed that they regarded monarchy as a "post-colonial (sic) hangover". Patriated isn't correct either." He prefers the statement to read "This was especially true in post-colonial Africa, whose leaders preferred not to continue in a personal union relationship with other nations."
The trouble with Gbambino's text is that it says very little -- it's not much more than "African leaders converted their Commonwealth realms to republics because that's what they wanted to do." Lholden's statement actually provides an explanation of why almost all of them converted status within 2-3 years. Which is why I would prefer to keep it.
To my knowledge, Lholden's statement is accurate: it was seen as casting off the last shackles of colonialism. It's what I hazily remember of the period and it certainly fits the general nationalist and pan-Africanist temper of the times. I don't see an obvious alternative that would apply across the continent, and Gbambino hasn't proposed one (let alone provided any evidence for it)
As to hard evidence for it, while I suspect Gbambino's demand is disingenuous (since he is changing his argument to get a desired result), it is also not unfair. However, I am not an African history expert and a quick search of the web reveals very little contemporary material on the transition. If Lholden, or some African expert who follows this topic, is reading this, it would move the discussion ahead if he could cite an item of hard evidence on the point, preferably a speech or article available on the web.
As to "patriation", it seems to me to be a perfectly accurate description -- the Head of State formerly resided in London, but thereafter resided in the presidential palace. However, I believe the word has a very particular connotation in Canada, so I'm not going to fight for it.
-- Chris Bennett 22:50, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
The last edit stated: "...[African] leaders often regarded the monarchy as a colonial hangover, preferring to patriate the office of Head of State". This edit was reverted because "Evidence is needed that they regarded monarchy as a "post-colonial hangover". Patriated isn't correct either." On the second issue:
-- Lholden 21:38, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
As discussed over at Talk:Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom, I fail to find any evidence outside of wikipedia-derived sources that the United Kingdom is considered a commonwealth realm. What evidence I can find - mostly on the royal website, suggests the opposite, referring to "the UK and the Commonwealth Realms" as being separate things. I have changed the article accordingly. john k 11:51, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
-- Chris Bennett 17:15, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
In the spirit of compromise, though, I'd be willing to accept wording which suggests that the question of whether the UK is a commonwealth realm is ambiguous or unclear, and that it is sometimes referred to as such, particularly in the (other) commonwealth realms. But we should certainly not state that it is unambiguously considered a commonwealth realm, when there are pretty clear examples of major sources using the term in a way to exclude the UK. john k 17:50, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Let me add that, if it can be demonstrated that "commonwealth realm" is a term with a formal legal meaning that includes the UK, I would be happy with Chris's proposed wording. Until that time, though, I'm going to oppose any attempt to label the UK as being a commonwealth realm as though it is a statement of fact. john k 19:22, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
If "commonwealth realm" basically means, as a formal term, "what we used to call a dominion," the UK is clearly not included. There is obviously some actual usage to the contrary, which refers to the UK as a commonwealth realm, but that, at best, makes the issue "somewhat ambiguous." There is yet to be any clear evidence that the UK is included in any kind of formal way. john k 21:27, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
As I alluded to at Talk:Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom earlier, the only really authoritative definition of the term "Commonwealth Realm" was that previously on the royal family's website [2], where it said "A Commonwealth realm is a country where The Queen is the Sovereign. The Queen is Queen not only of the United Kingdom and its overseas territories, but also of the following realms: Antigua and Barbuda, Australia, Bahamas, Barbados, Belize, Canada, Grenada, Jamaica, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, St Christopher and Nevis, St Lucia, St Vincent and the Grenadines, Solomon Islands and Tuvalu." Logically, this means that the term includes the UK, yet that very page, and the rest of the royal website consistently used the term in a way that suggests (without definitely implying) that the UK is not included.
The fact that the UK was not referred to as a dominion is irrelevant. The use of the term "Commonwealth realm" (the royal website never capitalises the r), came after the dominions stopped being "the British dominions" but were simply "the Queen's realms" instead. Much of the point in the change in the terminology was to better reflect the consitutional equality. There are indeed more similarities between the arrangements in the 15 other countries than between them and Britain, and so it would be reasonable to have a term to describe them, but it is not clear that "Commonwealth realm" is that term. As for usage on the web, most of it is from Wikipedia or is similarly guessing what the term means based on the royal website. Some sites use the clearly wrong "the Commonwealth Realm" or the "UK Commonwealth Realm". The term actually has had fairly limited usage on the royal website and a few other places always in the context of issues involving the Queen herself. As far as I can tell, the wider usage of the term originated with Wikipedia, which is probably not a good thing. JPD ( talk) 09:16, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
To clarify what I said earlier, the page on Commonwalth Realms from which I quoted the "definition" is no longer on the royal website, although part of the definition does remain as an answer in the Q&A section. The rest of the website does indeed focus on the role of the monarchy in the UK, inserting "the Commonwealth realms" as though an afterthought. Anyway, apart form the influence of Wikipedia, all the references to the term I have seen are in the specific context of sharing the Queen as sovereign, rather than other consitutional arrangements such as Governors-General, etc., including the quote above from the British PM implying that the UK is a Commonwealth Realm. I don't think it is fair to say that the term is used in the UK to refer to the UK any less than it is used in, say, Australia to refer to Australia. It simply isn't used very much anywhere. I also think that all the usages I have seen do use the term in a formal or technical manner. After all, even our use of "dominion" in this discussion has been with the technical meaning - the UK clearly is a dominion according to the more normal meaning of the word. JPD ( talk) 15:54, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
What is the issue noted about the Queen's speech in Jordan during 1984- states her speech contradicted Australian government- but does not provide details. Astrotrain 20:31, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
This is truely one of the stranger articles at Wikipedia. The term Commonwealth Realm does not exist. There is no legal and constitutional basis for this term. This article is really a complete fantasy. Sadly so.
ArmchairVexillologistDon 03:42, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I have read them. The term Commonwealth Realm does not exist outside of Wikipedia. There is not one bone fide legal or constitutional reference to this term. Not one.
Note in Added Proof: The Hansard of the House of Commons only records the words used in Parliament, it does not make them legally or constitutionally bone fide (i.e., formally defined in law) entities unto themselves. Hansard just records what was said. Nothing more, nothing less.
ArmchairVexillologistDon 05:07, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
You are using false logic, Chris Bennett. A simple mention of the words Commonwealth Realm in Hansard does not validate the term. Simply put, there is no accepted legal and/or constitutional reference/definition of this term. On the other hand, the term Dominion (and Dominion Status) have long been apart of the "Legal-Lexicon" . Case-in-point, the short form name of the Union of England and Wales (1536-1707) has offical status as England and Wales. Yes it does, just read a law-book (please do Chris!).
Bluntly put, the term Commonwealth Realm has no standing what-so-ever , and this article is a complete fantasy (but this has never stopped Wikipedia before, eh)
ArmchairVexillologistDon 09:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Chris Bennett, on the contrary, the TERM Commonwealth Realm is a complete fantasy. This whole Wikipedia article is a complete perversion of the Royal Styles and Titles Act 1953.
An Act to provide for an alteration of the Royal Style and Titles.
1 & 2 Eliz. 2 c. 9 [26th March 1953.]
WHEREAS it is expedient that the style and titles at present appertaining to the Crown should be altered so as to reflect more clearly the existing constitutional relations of the members of the Commonwealth to one another and their recognition of the Crown as the symbol of their free association and of the Sovereign as the Head of the Commonwealth: And whereas it was agreed between representatives of Her Majesty's Governments in the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the Union of South Africa, Pakistan and Ceylon assembled in London in the month of December, nineteen hundred and fifty-two, that there is need for an alteration thereof which, whilst permitting of the use in relation to each of those countries of a form suiting its particular circumstances, would retain a substantial element common to all:
Be it therefore enacted by the Queen's most Excellent Majesty by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal and Commons in this present Parliament assembled and by the authority of the same as follows:
1. The assent of the Parliament of the United Kingdom is hereby given to the adoption by Her Majesty, for use in relation to the United Kingdom and all other the territories for whose foreign relations Her Government in the United Kingdom is responsible, of such style and titles as Her Majesty may think fit having regard to the said agreement, in lieu of the style and titles at present appertaining to the Crown, and to the issue by Her for that purpose of Her Royal Proclamation under the Great Seal of the Realm.
2. This Act may be cited as the Royal Titles Act, 1953.
ROYAL PROCLAMATION reciting the altered Style and Titles of the Crown.
London, 29th May, 1953
(British and Foreign State Papers, vol. 160, p. 2; citing the Eleventh Supplement of The London Gazette of 26th May, 1953.)
BY THE QUEEN A PROCLAMATION ELIZABETH R.
WHEREAS there has been passed in the present Session of Parliament the Royal Titles Act, 1953 [1 & 2 Eliz. 2. c.9], which Act recites that it is expedient that the style and titles at present appertaining to the Crown should be altered so as to reflect more clearly the existing constitutional relations of the members of the Commonwealth to one another and their recognition of the Crown as the symbol of their free association and of the Sovereign as the Head of the Commonwealth, and which Act also recites that it was agreed between representatives of Her Majesty's Governments in the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the Union of South Africa, Pakistan and Ceylon assembled in London in the month of December, nineteen hundred and fifty-two, that there is need for an alteration thereof which, whilst permitting of the use in relation to each of those countries of a form suiting its particular circumstances, would retain a substantial element common to all:
And Whereas by the said Act the assent of the Parliament of the United Kingdom was given to the adoption by Us, for use in relation to the United Kingdom and all other the territories for whose foreign relations Our Government in the United Kingdom is responsible, of such style and titles as We may think fit having regard to the said agreement, in lieu of the style and titles at present appertaining to the Crown, and to the issue by Us for that purpose of Our Royal Proclamation under the Great Seal of the Realm: We have thought fit, and We do hereby appoint and declare, by and with the advice of Our Privy Council, that so far as conveniently may be, on all occasions and in all instruments wherein Our style and titles are used in relation to all or any one or more of the following, that is to say, the United Kingdom and all other the territories for whose foreign relations Our Government in the United Kingdom is responsible, Our style and titles shall henceforth be accepted, taken and used as the same are set forth in manner and form following, that is to say, the same shall be expressed in the English tongue by these words:—
"Elizabeth II, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith ". And in the Latin tongue by these words:—
" Elizabeth II, Dei Gratia Britanniarum Regnorumque Suorum Ceterorum Regina, Consortionis Populorum Princeps, Fidei Defensor ". Given at Our Court at Buckingham Palace, this twenty-eighth day of May, in the year of our Lord One thousand nine hundred and fifty-three, and in the Second year of Our Reign.
GOD SAVE THE QUEEN
No-where in these two above documents does your "beloved fantasy term" Commonwealth Realm ever get defined in any legal and/or constitutional fashion. This whole Wikipedia article is in essence "Political Science Fiction".
ArmchairVexillologistDon 20:46, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello gbambino. Thank you very much for your helpful comment. I am an English-Canadian Constitutional-Monarchist, just I believe you are as well. You adhere to the Split-Crowns constitutional construct, whereas I adhere to the Single-Crown Personal Union constitutional construct. Other than that major difference, I believe you and I see eye-to-eye on the value of the British Constitutional-Monarchy system that governs our home-country of the Dominion of Canada.
Now the British Commonwealth of Nations (also known as the British Empire, British Empire-Commonwealth, [the British Commonwealth of Nations], the Commonwealth of Nations, or the Commonwealth) may be REFERED TO by a series of NAMES. Some are explicitly legally and constitutionally defined (i.e., the British Empire, the British Commonwealth of Nations) and others are NOT (i.e., the British Empire-Commonwealth, the Commonwealth of Nations, the Commonwealth).
Plainly stated, the simple usage of Commonwealth Realm is a politically-correct "nick-name" UN-OFFICAL euphemism for the Mother-Country and the British Dominions (i.e., the terms Dominion and Dominion Status are the bone fide genuine article).
euphemism
http://www.answers.com/topic/euphemism
ArmchairVexillologistDon 22:34, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
A Dominion is a Constitutional-Monarchy (excluding the UK) that has a Governor-General to represent the British Monarch that is their accepted the figure Head-of-State (i.e., an independent country within the British Commonwealth of Nations). The politically correct euphemism of a Commonwealth Realm granted fully responsible status is nothing more than hollow "phrasiology" the placate Asian and African Colonies who did not want to retain their Dominion Status anyways. We should of let the Republic of India LEAVE the Commonwealth, and kept it CONSTITUTIONAL-MONARCHIES ONLY (i.e., membership by Dominion Status only).
Hello Chris Bennett. The term Realm is identical in law to a Kingdom, Dominion, Union, Commonwealth (its the same bloody thing!).
In legal terms I am wrong?
How so? (i.e, this I would love to hear eh).
FYI, in legal terms a Dominion (i.e., an independent country within the British Commonwealth of Nations) that has accepted the British Monarch as their figure Head-of-State (i.e., been granted Dominion Status) is the CORRECT designation. In has the force of British Commonwealth Constitutional Law behind it. The term Commonwealth Realm is simply a politically correct euphemism. There is NO LEGAL/CONSTITUTIONAL DEFINITION that you can find to contradict me on this point. Try as you may, you will find nothing, Chris Bennett (Go check the Law-books, bub!).
ArmchairVexillologistDon 04:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Certainly "dominion" is not the right term, especially as it has apparently never been used to describe any of the countries under discussion save Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and, formerly, South Africa, Ireland (?), India, Pakistan, and Ceylon. It seems as though "commonwealth realm" is the best term available, even if it isn't used all that much. john k 03:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello John Kenney. On the contrary the term Dominion IS the proper legal/constitutional designation of the 15 Constitutional-Monarchies that have a Governor-General to represent the British Constitutional Monarch. The United Kingdomg of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has NO Governor-General as the British Monarch resides within the country.
The Feudal Rank of a Kingdom is equivalent to that of a Dominion (i.e., they are both ruled by a King).
ArmchairVexillologistDon 04:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello Grant65, I want to apologise to you. I probably came off to you as being "heavy-handed" and arrogant. I am sorry about that, it was not my intent. I am very passionate about the British Commonwealth of Nations and our bretheren in the United States of America (did you know that in the Benjamin Franklins' 1st draft of the Articles of Confederation (of the USA) that he proposed that the newly independent country (formed from the seceeding 13 of the 19 Colonies of British America) be styled and titled the United Colonies of North America).
Please note the pattern in the names,
Colonies of British America
United Colonies of North America
United States of America
Anyways, if you wish not to continue this discussion with me, I understand. I can get a "wee-bit cranky" when I feel people are not listening. For this I apologise to you, Grant65.
ArmchairVexillologistDon 16:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello Grant65. Point-in-fact,
The German Empire (1871-1918) was a Federal Empire.
The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a Unitary Kingdom.
The United States of America is a Federal Republic.
The Dominion of Canada is a Federal Dominion.
The Commonwealth of Australia is a Federal Dominion.
The Dominion of New Zealand is a Unitary Dominion.
The Union of South Africa (1910-1961) was a Unitary Dominion.
ArmchairVexillologistDon 06:48, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello Grant65, thank you for you kind response.
Do you note the pattern in the names listed below?
Colonies of British America
United Colonies of North America
United States of America
A country (or colony) possesses a long form name, and a short form name. The long form name is of the syntax (Rank) (short form name). If the country is a Monarchy the (Rank) is a Feudal Rank (i.e., Empire, Kingdom, Principality, Duchy, Marche, Earldom, County, or Estate). If the coutry is a Republic, then the (Rank) is just "Republic".
ArmchairVexillologistDon 14:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
A Realm is a general term for a country that is ruled by a Monarch. An older term for Realm is Fief (i.e., a Fiefdom).
The generic syntax is given below,
The Lord of the Fief rules a Fiefdom.
The Order of Precedence (he who procedes first) is given as follows (from highest to lowest Feudal Rank),
An Emperor rules an Empire.
A King rules a Kingdom.
A Prince rules a Principality.
A Duke rules a Duchy.
A Marquis rules a Marche.
An Earl rules an Earldom.
A Count rules a County.
A Baron rules an Estate.
The Feudal Rank of a Kingdom, Union, Dominion, Commonwealth are EQUAL, i.e., they are ruled by a King.
Get it now eh?
ArmchairVexillologistDon 00:39, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
The Realm of an Emperor is an Empire.
The Realm of a King is a Kingdom.
The Realm of a Prince is a Principality.
The Realm of a Duke is a Duchy.
The Realm of a Marquis is a Marche.
The Realm of a Earl is an Earldom.
The Realm of a Count is a County.
The Realm of a Baron is an Estate.
The Feudal Rank of a Kingdom, Union, Dominion, Commonwealth are EQUAL, i.e., they are ruled by a King.
Therefore, the Realms of a King are a Kingdom, Union, Dominion, Commonwealth.
ArmchairVexillologistDon 04:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Please name a country with the word Realm as part of its' name?
ArmchairVexillologistDon 23:56, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I know I'm a newcomer to this article and I gather there's quite a history here, but I have a question for ArmchairVexillologistDon. I gather that you believe that the name and focus of this article aren't the best way of describing the information contained in it. Having said that, I'm sure there are other articles on Wikipedia that you believe contain a more accurate description that could be even further improved with the benefit of your expertise. My question is, why don't you spend more of your time and energy working on editing and improving those articles, and less time venting negative energy at this one? Regards,
Newyorkbrad
00:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
As far as I can see there is no proposal on the table here. AVD doesn't like the term Commonwealth Realm nor the article that discusses it. This is his right, whatever I or anyone else may think of his reasons. But he's also not actually proposing to change anything, and nor is anybody else. So let's just drop this whole discussion. -- Chris Bennett 08:09, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
...* Most wiki links are nominals (nouns and noun phrases) or words and phrases derived from nominals. With a few exceptions where something else just works better. Let's not forget, the goal is comprehension and convenience for the readers. Peter Grey 21:19, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
In two Commonwealth Realms -- Papua New Guinea and the Solomon Islands -- the governors-general are elected by the parliament. I think this should be mentioned here, but I admit that I don't understand how this practice reconciles with the legal theory of the Westminster system. Is the Queen appointing the G-Gs in those realms on the advice of her Parliament, rather than of her government? Or has the Queen's reserve powers in those realms been restrained by constitutional law? -- Jfruh 21:02, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
While I understand why Ireland is on the list of former commonwealth realms, I believe that Ireland's departure from the commonwealth in 1949 predated the existence of the term "Commonwealth Realm" altogether (the term Dominion was in use at the time). In addition, Ireland's political setup for the bulk of this period -- with an elected President coexisting with the monarch -- is different from any other Commonwealth Realm. At the risk of adding extraneous material to this page, I think this stuff ought to be mentioned at least -- Jfruh 21:05, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Nice map, whoever did it, but you left off St. Vincent and the Grenadines
Regarding the Monarch of Australia, would it not be more appropriate to title her Queen Elizabeth I (Queen of Australia) rather than Queen Elizabeth II (Queen of England)? After all, there was no previous Elizabeth who would have reigned over Australia even as a colony. In fact, since Federation 1901, should not the previous Kings of Australia (not of England) too (since after Federation Australia was now an independent country with its own monarch head of state, separate from England) should have had their titles re-ordered in the Australian context by ordinal number?
And since the creation of the British Commonwealth, should not other Commonwealth countries now being independent (previous simply existing as colonies of a "empire") now also be titled Elizabeth I to reflect that she is now a monarch of many independent countries rather than previously Queen Elizabeth II of England via her former colonial empire? And since she is the "Queen of the Commonwealth", a new position from during her reign and should, while keeping her as Queen Elizabeth II as Queen of England, then also title her in the Commonwealth context as Elizabeth I of the British Commonwealth?
And the "republics" in the commonwealth, while they have elected presidents by the people, are they not actually under the Queen as her popularly elected representatives of the Head of the Commonwealth, with the difference from monarchies like Australia being that her representative as Head of State is appointed and delegated by her personally as as Governor-General?
In terms of the seats of power, the Commonwealth republican presidents and the Governor-Generals of the Commonwealth monarchies may difffer, but in terms of the seat of delegation, functionally I would see them to be the same: still representing the Monarch under the Commonwealth. Under my understanding then, the Queen would legally (though probably politically no be able to do so) have the authority to dismiss any of her representatives under her delegation of each independent country of the Commonwealth, such as perhaps Robert Mugabe or, in earlier times, Idi Amin? Interesting question!
As a corrolary regarding Australian (and other Commonwealth country) coins, would they be not genuinely actual "Legal Tender" in Australia since it is her image as Queen of England, Head of State of England (Elizabeth II) which bears all Australian coins and not her image as Queen of Australia, Head of State of Australia (Elizabeth I) which ought to be borne on Australian coins? This would lead it to consider that "Australian" coins are not realy Australian Legal Tender but rather they are English Legal Tender but denoted in terms of Australian Dollar / cents denominations! The Australian $5 note would still be Austraian Legal Tender since the image of the Queen does not specify the name. Nor does it make sense for the Australian Prime Minister to swear his oath to the Queen of England (Elizabeth II). Why not swear his oath to the Queen of Australia (Elizabeth I) if he is the Prime Minister of Australia?
Sincerely, Vytautas B. Radzivanas, Perth, Western Australia
Thanks for your comments Chris. I had come up with my comments above looking at a similar situation in another part of Europe. Lithuania and Poland were several hundred years in a commonwealth situation where the two countries were independent, but shared a common monarch - most of the time! This was because the Grand Duke Jogaila of Lithuania married Hedwig the Queen of Poland and therefore Jogaila (in Polish: Jagiello) became concurrently but separately the Head of State of each of the two countries: King of the Kingom of Poland, and Grand Duke of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. My understanding is that Poland being a Kingdom, the King was in a dynastic succession, but Lithuania being a Grand Duchy (a different form of statehood) had as its Head of State being the Grand Duke, where the all various Dukes of the Lithuanian federal duchies state in council would acclaim one of them to be the "first of equals" to be the Grand Duke, or the Head of State OF Lithuania. In most cases, the hereditary accession of the King of Poland would be acceeded by the Lithuanian Dukes to also be the Grand Duke of Lithuania. While in the same Grand Ducal (extended) Family, there were a few cases when the person of the King of Poland and the Grand Duke of Lithuania were not the same person, and as a result, there were different ordinal numberings among the later same Kings/Grand Dukes. Sometimes there were staggered reigns in each of the two countries. The most notable was where the Lithuanian Grand Duke Zygimantas I was never a King of Poland, and King John Albrecht of Poland was never a Grand Duke of Lithuania. When in a later century Lithuania's Grand Duke Zygimantas II became King of Poland, as Poland's king there was never any previous Zygimantas (name in Polish: Sigismund), so while he was Zygimantas II Grand Duke of Lithuania, he was Zygimantas I (Sigismund I) King of Poland.
When eventually the dynasty died without issue, Poland was no longer able to continue dynastic succession,and joined with Lithuania's "accession of first among equal Dukes" idea for the 2 countries to develop a common voting by nobility to elect a common monarch as King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania, which included nobles from each country as Kings / Grand Dukes of the day. Later, royalty from other countries were elected as common King / Grand Duke of each of the two countries and wound up having common monarchs from Saxony, France, Sweeden, Hungary etc. In a sense, it was no longer a "monarchy" but almost a republic with a presidential head of state "for life term" elected from among royalty of any country. In the 1790's, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was partitioned and annexed by 3 growing powers in Europe: Russia, Prussia, and Austria (commonly described as "partitions of Poland") and both countries ceased to exist as sovereign states until their independences were restored after World War I, and after the Soviet occupations and sattelite statuses from World War II, the now are fully independent since 1990.
I believe there was also precedent for different ordinal numbers of common monarchs reigning in several countries concurrently, evain in Great Britain, where I believe that a James in Scotland and England had different ordinal numbers at the same time, and that also led me to the question I raised above.
Sincerely, Vytautas B. Radzivanas Perth, Western Australia
The Commonwealth Realms choose to have a common numbering. No, it's not perfectly logical, it's better because it helps give the monarchy some of its human charm. (It could be interesting if we ever have a "King Louis", because Canada has already had a Louis XV.) Peter Grey 06:58, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I raised this issue in regards to Canada on the Elizabeth II talk page. The outcome of the discussion was that Elizabeth is entitled to call herself whatever she wants in any of her kingdoms. So she is still Elizabeth II. Earlier I thought this was otherwise but I was wrong. So Chris Bennet, you are incorrect about her needing to be called merely Elizabeth in Australia. FDR | FDR 16:20 May 26, 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I should have read the discussion more carefully. FDR FDR:MyTalk 15:58 May 27, 2006 (UTC)
Just made a small change to this part - Victoria certainly didn't vote in favour - Only the ACT did. Further to that the 'defeated by a narrow margin overall' is certainly debateable - given the double majority required. 220.235.156.94 12:10, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
In case I am wrong in assumption of a prior merger being in force or if such a split is contemplated in the future, IMHO as someone who writes frequently in matters historical, this particular section ought to be in it's own article.
This (following) duplicates a post to user talk:Mel Etitis as my UK 'goto guy'. Best regards, Fra nkB
Hi! This is of national interest to you, so I'll pick on you about this vexation!
Thanks, Best! Fra nkB 13:50, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
There is a discussion re whether Canada is a kingdom at Talk:Canada#Canada_is_not_a_kingdom. As this affects all realms, it is relevant here & discussion should probably continue here. -- JimWae 20:11, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
This article is a little inaccurate in how it defines "realm", but I can't think off-hand how to reword it simply to avoid the problem.
For example, the very first paragraph currently says this:
A Commonwealth Realm is any one of the 16 sovereign states of the Commonwealth of Nations that recognise Queen Elizabeth II as their Queen and head of state.
The problem with this and other examples that equate being a realm with a sovereign state is the Realm of New Zealand. That realm is not a state, but is virtually a mini version of the Commonwealth in its own right, being made up of three sovereign states and two dependencies:
Constitutionally, the Cook Islands and Niue are equal partners with New Zealand proper within the Realm of New Zealand, and are sovereign states in their own right. Possibly the only way to neatly reflect this in the article is to insert a footnote at the very first reference to realms being sovereign states. Any other approach would probably involve quite clunky phrasing.
Silverhelm 12:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC).
The long form full name is the
Dominion of New Zealand and its Dependencies. The Royal Proclamation of September 8, 1907 declaring "the Colony of New Zealand shall be known as the Dominion of New Zealand" on and after September 26, 1907 was never formally revoked.
The Cook Islands, Niue (an Associated State), Tokelau and the Ross Dependency are the Dependencies of the Dominion of New Zealand. Someday in the future, Niue will change its Associated State Status, and gain Dominion Status (or perhaps a Republic within the British Commonwealth of Nations).
70.30.193.143 18:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I am researching the history and constitutional law of the British Commonwealth of Nations. The name of this organisation used to be refered to as the British Empire. Then following the formation of the British Dominions of the Dominion of Canada (1867), the Commonwealth of Australia (1901), the Dominion of New Zealand (1907), and the Union of South Africa (1910), the organisation was refered to as the British Empire-Commonwealth. This hyphenated term was used to denote that the majority of the territory was still under the direct government of the United Kingdom (i.e., the British Empire part), whereas the British Dominions were independent countries within the British Empire (i.e., the British Commonwealth part).
On December 6, 1921, the Irish Free State was formed and granted Dominion Status as well. This left the Mother-Country with the name of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The Irish Free State unambigiously retained its Dominion Status (1921-1937), and later left the British Commonwealth in 1949, to become the Republic of Ireland. During this period on August 15, 1947, the British colony of the Empire of India was partitioned into the Dominion of India, and the Dominion of Pakistan (who later became the Republic of India, and the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, in 1950 and 1956, repectively).
Following the partition of 1947, the majority of the organisations' territory were no longer British colonies, and were in fact British Dominions. Thus the usage of the term British Empire was discontinued, and it became known as the British Commonwealth of Nations (later in fact the term Commonwealth of Nations has become prevalent).
Therefore, up until the Royal Styles and Titles Act 1953, the term Dominion Status was in use, and completely understood in legal and constitutonal terms. The intent of the framers of the Royal Styles and Titles Act 1953 is clearly and explicitly expressed in the body of the text. Nowhere within the text did it state the intent to abolish the term Dominion Status, and replace it with term known as a Commonwealth Realm.
So, can anyone give me a legal reference to begin my research into the origin and legal definition of the term Commonwealth Realm? If other Wikipedians would be so kind, I would be most greatful indeed.
70.30.193.143 20:47, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Is "commonwealth realm" a legal term at all? It was my understanding that it was really just a common description. john k 18:02, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Gbambino has objected to Lholden's edit that "This [i.e. replacement of monarchy by republic] was especially true in post-colonial Africa, whose leaders often regarded the monarchy as a colonial hangover, preferring to patriate the office of Head of State."
Initially he objected on the grounds that it was POV. When I pointed out that Lholden's statement is about historical motivation, and therefore not POV, he changed his objection to the grounds that "Evidence is needed that they regarded monarchy as a "post-colonial (sic) hangover". Patriated isn't correct either." He prefers the statement to read "This was especially true in post-colonial Africa, whose leaders preferred not to continue in a personal union relationship with other nations."
The trouble with Gbambino's text is that it says very little -- it's not much more than "African leaders converted their Commonwealth realms to republics because that's what they wanted to do." Lholden's statement actually provides an explanation of why almost all of them converted status within 2-3 years. Which is why I would prefer to keep it.
To my knowledge, Lholden's statement is accurate: it was seen as casting off the last shackles of colonialism. It's what I hazily remember of the period and it certainly fits the general nationalist and pan-Africanist temper of the times. I don't see an obvious alternative that would apply across the continent, and Gbambino hasn't proposed one (let alone provided any evidence for it)
As to hard evidence for it, while I suspect Gbambino's demand is disingenuous (since he is changing his argument to get a desired result), it is also not unfair. However, I am not an African history expert and a quick search of the web reveals very little contemporary material on the transition. If Lholden, or some African expert who follows this topic, is reading this, it would move the discussion ahead if he could cite an item of hard evidence on the point, preferably a speech or article available on the web.
As to "patriation", it seems to me to be a perfectly accurate description -- the Head of State formerly resided in London, but thereafter resided in the presidential palace. However, I believe the word has a very particular connotation in Canada, so I'm not going to fight for it.
-- Chris Bennett 22:50, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
The last edit stated: "...[African] leaders often regarded the monarchy as a colonial hangover, preferring to patriate the office of Head of State". This edit was reverted because "Evidence is needed that they regarded monarchy as a "post-colonial hangover". Patriated isn't correct either." On the second issue:
-- Lholden 21:38, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
As discussed over at Talk:Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom, I fail to find any evidence outside of wikipedia-derived sources that the United Kingdom is considered a commonwealth realm. What evidence I can find - mostly on the royal website, suggests the opposite, referring to "the UK and the Commonwealth Realms" as being separate things. I have changed the article accordingly. john k 11:51, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
-- Chris Bennett 17:15, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
In the spirit of compromise, though, I'd be willing to accept wording which suggests that the question of whether the UK is a commonwealth realm is ambiguous or unclear, and that it is sometimes referred to as such, particularly in the (other) commonwealth realms. But we should certainly not state that it is unambiguously considered a commonwealth realm, when there are pretty clear examples of major sources using the term in a way to exclude the UK. john k 17:50, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Let me add that, if it can be demonstrated that "commonwealth realm" is a term with a formal legal meaning that includes the UK, I would be happy with Chris's proposed wording. Until that time, though, I'm going to oppose any attempt to label the UK as being a commonwealth realm as though it is a statement of fact. john k 19:22, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
If "commonwealth realm" basically means, as a formal term, "what we used to call a dominion," the UK is clearly not included. There is obviously some actual usage to the contrary, which refers to the UK as a commonwealth realm, but that, at best, makes the issue "somewhat ambiguous." There is yet to be any clear evidence that the UK is included in any kind of formal way. john k 21:27, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
As I alluded to at Talk:Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom earlier, the only really authoritative definition of the term "Commonwealth Realm" was that previously on the royal family's website [2], where it said "A Commonwealth realm is a country where The Queen is the Sovereign. The Queen is Queen not only of the United Kingdom and its overseas territories, but also of the following realms: Antigua and Barbuda, Australia, Bahamas, Barbados, Belize, Canada, Grenada, Jamaica, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, St Christopher and Nevis, St Lucia, St Vincent and the Grenadines, Solomon Islands and Tuvalu." Logically, this means that the term includes the UK, yet that very page, and the rest of the royal website consistently used the term in a way that suggests (without definitely implying) that the UK is not included.
The fact that the UK was not referred to as a dominion is irrelevant. The use of the term "Commonwealth realm" (the royal website never capitalises the r), came after the dominions stopped being "the British dominions" but were simply "the Queen's realms" instead. Much of the point in the change in the terminology was to better reflect the consitutional equality. There are indeed more similarities between the arrangements in the 15 other countries than between them and Britain, and so it would be reasonable to have a term to describe them, but it is not clear that "Commonwealth realm" is that term. As for usage on the web, most of it is from Wikipedia or is similarly guessing what the term means based on the royal website. Some sites use the clearly wrong "the Commonwealth Realm" or the "UK Commonwealth Realm". The term actually has had fairly limited usage on the royal website and a few other places always in the context of issues involving the Queen herself. As far as I can tell, the wider usage of the term originated with Wikipedia, which is probably not a good thing. JPD ( talk) 09:16, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
To clarify what I said earlier, the page on Commonwalth Realms from which I quoted the "definition" is no longer on the royal website, although part of the definition does remain as an answer in the Q&A section. The rest of the website does indeed focus on the role of the monarchy in the UK, inserting "the Commonwealth realms" as though an afterthought. Anyway, apart form the influence of Wikipedia, all the references to the term I have seen are in the specific context of sharing the Queen as sovereign, rather than other consitutional arrangements such as Governors-General, etc., including the quote above from the British PM implying that the UK is a Commonwealth Realm. I don't think it is fair to say that the term is used in the UK to refer to the UK any less than it is used in, say, Australia to refer to Australia. It simply isn't used very much anywhere. I also think that all the usages I have seen do use the term in a formal or technical manner. After all, even our use of "dominion" in this discussion has been with the technical meaning - the UK clearly is a dominion according to the more normal meaning of the word. JPD ( talk) 15:54, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
What is the issue noted about the Queen's speech in Jordan during 1984- states her speech contradicted Australian government- but does not provide details. Astrotrain 20:31, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
This is truely one of the stranger articles at Wikipedia. The term Commonwealth Realm does not exist. There is no legal and constitutional basis for this term. This article is really a complete fantasy. Sadly so.
ArmchairVexillologistDon 03:42, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I have read them. The term Commonwealth Realm does not exist outside of Wikipedia. There is not one bone fide legal or constitutional reference to this term. Not one.
Note in Added Proof: The Hansard of the House of Commons only records the words used in Parliament, it does not make them legally or constitutionally bone fide (i.e., formally defined in law) entities unto themselves. Hansard just records what was said. Nothing more, nothing less.
ArmchairVexillologistDon 05:07, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
You are using false logic, Chris Bennett. A simple mention of the words Commonwealth Realm in Hansard does not validate the term. Simply put, there is no accepted legal and/or constitutional reference/definition of this term. On the other hand, the term Dominion (and Dominion Status) have long been apart of the "Legal-Lexicon" . Case-in-point, the short form name of the Union of England and Wales (1536-1707) has offical status as England and Wales. Yes it does, just read a law-book (please do Chris!).
Bluntly put, the term Commonwealth Realm has no standing what-so-ever , and this article is a complete fantasy (but this has never stopped Wikipedia before, eh)
ArmchairVexillologistDon 09:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Chris Bennett, on the contrary, the TERM Commonwealth Realm is a complete fantasy. This whole Wikipedia article is a complete perversion of the Royal Styles and Titles Act 1953.
An Act to provide for an alteration of the Royal Style and Titles.
1 & 2 Eliz. 2 c. 9 [26th March 1953.]
WHEREAS it is expedient that the style and titles at present appertaining to the Crown should be altered so as to reflect more clearly the existing constitutional relations of the members of the Commonwealth to one another and their recognition of the Crown as the symbol of their free association and of the Sovereign as the Head of the Commonwealth: And whereas it was agreed between representatives of Her Majesty's Governments in the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the Union of South Africa, Pakistan and Ceylon assembled in London in the month of December, nineteen hundred and fifty-two, that there is need for an alteration thereof which, whilst permitting of the use in relation to each of those countries of a form suiting its particular circumstances, would retain a substantial element common to all:
Be it therefore enacted by the Queen's most Excellent Majesty by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal and Commons in this present Parliament assembled and by the authority of the same as follows:
1. The assent of the Parliament of the United Kingdom is hereby given to the adoption by Her Majesty, for use in relation to the United Kingdom and all other the territories for whose foreign relations Her Government in the United Kingdom is responsible, of such style and titles as Her Majesty may think fit having regard to the said agreement, in lieu of the style and titles at present appertaining to the Crown, and to the issue by Her for that purpose of Her Royal Proclamation under the Great Seal of the Realm.
2. This Act may be cited as the Royal Titles Act, 1953.
ROYAL PROCLAMATION reciting the altered Style and Titles of the Crown.
London, 29th May, 1953
(British and Foreign State Papers, vol. 160, p. 2; citing the Eleventh Supplement of The London Gazette of 26th May, 1953.)
BY THE QUEEN A PROCLAMATION ELIZABETH R.
WHEREAS there has been passed in the present Session of Parliament the Royal Titles Act, 1953 [1 & 2 Eliz. 2. c.9], which Act recites that it is expedient that the style and titles at present appertaining to the Crown should be altered so as to reflect more clearly the existing constitutional relations of the members of the Commonwealth to one another and their recognition of the Crown as the symbol of their free association and of the Sovereign as the Head of the Commonwealth, and which Act also recites that it was agreed between representatives of Her Majesty's Governments in the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the Union of South Africa, Pakistan and Ceylon assembled in London in the month of December, nineteen hundred and fifty-two, that there is need for an alteration thereof which, whilst permitting of the use in relation to each of those countries of a form suiting its particular circumstances, would retain a substantial element common to all:
And Whereas by the said Act the assent of the Parliament of the United Kingdom was given to the adoption by Us, for use in relation to the United Kingdom and all other the territories for whose foreign relations Our Government in the United Kingdom is responsible, of such style and titles as We may think fit having regard to the said agreement, in lieu of the style and titles at present appertaining to the Crown, and to the issue by Us for that purpose of Our Royal Proclamation under the Great Seal of the Realm: We have thought fit, and We do hereby appoint and declare, by and with the advice of Our Privy Council, that so far as conveniently may be, on all occasions and in all instruments wherein Our style and titles are used in relation to all or any one or more of the following, that is to say, the United Kingdom and all other the territories for whose foreign relations Our Government in the United Kingdom is responsible, Our style and titles shall henceforth be accepted, taken and used as the same are set forth in manner and form following, that is to say, the same shall be expressed in the English tongue by these words:—
"Elizabeth II, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith ". And in the Latin tongue by these words:—
" Elizabeth II, Dei Gratia Britanniarum Regnorumque Suorum Ceterorum Regina, Consortionis Populorum Princeps, Fidei Defensor ". Given at Our Court at Buckingham Palace, this twenty-eighth day of May, in the year of our Lord One thousand nine hundred and fifty-three, and in the Second year of Our Reign.
GOD SAVE THE QUEEN
No-where in these two above documents does your "beloved fantasy term" Commonwealth Realm ever get defined in any legal and/or constitutional fashion. This whole Wikipedia article is in essence "Political Science Fiction".
ArmchairVexillologistDon 20:46, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello gbambino. Thank you very much for your helpful comment. I am an English-Canadian Constitutional-Monarchist, just I believe you are as well. You adhere to the Split-Crowns constitutional construct, whereas I adhere to the Single-Crown Personal Union constitutional construct. Other than that major difference, I believe you and I see eye-to-eye on the value of the British Constitutional-Monarchy system that governs our home-country of the Dominion of Canada.
Now the British Commonwealth of Nations (also known as the British Empire, British Empire-Commonwealth, [the British Commonwealth of Nations], the Commonwealth of Nations, or the Commonwealth) may be REFERED TO by a series of NAMES. Some are explicitly legally and constitutionally defined (i.e., the British Empire, the British Commonwealth of Nations) and others are NOT (i.e., the British Empire-Commonwealth, the Commonwealth of Nations, the Commonwealth).
Plainly stated, the simple usage of Commonwealth Realm is a politically-correct "nick-name" UN-OFFICAL euphemism for the Mother-Country and the British Dominions (i.e., the terms Dominion and Dominion Status are the bone fide genuine article).
euphemism
http://www.answers.com/topic/euphemism
ArmchairVexillologistDon 22:34, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
A Dominion is a Constitutional-Monarchy (excluding the UK) that has a Governor-General to represent the British Monarch that is their accepted the figure Head-of-State (i.e., an independent country within the British Commonwealth of Nations). The politically correct euphemism of a Commonwealth Realm granted fully responsible status is nothing more than hollow "phrasiology" the placate Asian and African Colonies who did not want to retain their Dominion Status anyways. We should of let the Republic of India LEAVE the Commonwealth, and kept it CONSTITUTIONAL-MONARCHIES ONLY (i.e., membership by Dominion Status only).
Hello Chris Bennett. The term Realm is identical in law to a Kingdom, Dominion, Union, Commonwealth (its the same bloody thing!).
In legal terms I am wrong?
How so? (i.e, this I would love to hear eh).
FYI, in legal terms a Dominion (i.e., an independent country within the British Commonwealth of Nations) that has accepted the British Monarch as their figure Head-of-State (i.e., been granted Dominion Status) is the CORRECT designation. In has the force of British Commonwealth Constitutional Law behind it. The term Commonwealth Realm is simply a politically correct euphemism. There is NO LEGAL/CONSTITUTIONAL DEFINITION that you can find to contradict me on this point. Try as you may, you will find nothing, Chris Bennett (Go check the Law-books, bub!).
ArmchairVexillologistDon 04:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Certainly "dominion" is not the right term, especially as it has apparently never been used to describe any of the countries under discussion save Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and, formerly, South Africa, Ireland (?), India, Pakistan, and Ceylon. It seems as though "commonwealth realm" is the best term available, even if it isn't used all that much. john k 03:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello John Kenney. On the contrary the term Dominion IS the proper legal/constitutional designation of the 15 Constitutional-Monarchies that have a Governor-General to represent the British Constitutional Monarch. The United Kingdomg of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has NO Governor-General as the British Monarch resides within the country.
The Feudal Rank of a Kingdom is equivalent to that of a Dominion (i.e., they are both ruled by a King).
ArmchairVexillologistDon 04:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello Grant65, I want to apologise to you. I probably came off to you as being "heavy-handed" and arrogant. I am sorry about that, it was not my intent. I am very passionate about the British Commonwealth of Nations and our bretheren in the United States of America (did you know that in the Benjamin Franklins' 1st draft of the Articles of Confederation (of the USA) that he proposed that the newly independent country (formed from the seceeding 13 of the 19 Colonies of British America) be styled and titled the United Colonies of North America).
Please note the pattern in the names,
Colonies of British America
United Colonies of North America
United States of America
Anyways, if you wish not to continue this discussion with me, I understand. I can get a "wee-bit cranky" when I feel people are not listening. For this I apologise to you, Grant65.
ArmchairVexillologistDon 16:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello Grant65. Point-in-fact,
The German Empire (1871-1918) was a Federal Empire.
The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a Unitary Kingdom.
The United States of America is a Federal Republic.
The Dominion of Canada is a Federal Dominion.
The Commonwealth of Australia is a Federal Dominion.
The Dominion of New Zealand is a Unitary Dominion.
The Union of South Africa (1910-1961) was a Unitary Dominion.
ArmchairVexillologistDon 06:48, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello Grant65, thank you for you kind response.
Do you note the pattern in the names listed below?
Colonies of British America
United Colonies of North America
United States of America
A country (or colony) possesses a long form name, and a short form name. The long form name is of the syntax (Rank) (short form name). If the country is a Monarchy the (Rank) is a Feudal Rank (i.e., Empire, Kingdom, Principality, Duchy, Marche, Earldom, County, or Estate). If the coutry is a Republic, then the (Rank) is just "Republic".
ArmchairVexillologistDon 14:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
A Realm is a general term for a country that is ruled by a Monarch. An older term for Realm is Fief (i.e., a Fiefdom).
The generic syntax is given below,
The Lord of the Fief rules a Fiefdom.
The Order of Precedence (he who procedes first) is given as follows (from highest to lowest Feudal Rank),
An Emperor rules an Empire.
A King rules a Kingdom.
A Prince rules a Principality.
A Duke rules a Duchy.
A Marquis rules a Marche.
An Earl rules an Earldom.
A Count rules a County.
A Baron rules an Estate.
The Feudal Rank of a Kingdom, Union, Dominion, Commonwealth are EQUAL, i.e., they are ruled by a King.
Get it now eh?
ArmchairVexillologistDon 00:39, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
The Realm of an Emperor is an Empire.
The Realm of a King is a Kingdom.
The Realm of a Prince is a Principality.
The Realm of a Duke is a Duchy.
The Realm of a Marquis is a Marche.
The Realm of a Earl is an Earldom.
The Realm of a Count is a County.
The Realm of a Baron is an Estate.
The Feudal Rank of a Kingdom, Union, Dominion, Commonwealth are EQUAL, i.e., they are ruled by a King.
Therefore, the Realms of a King are a Kingdom, Union, Dominion, Commonwealth.
ArmchairVexillologistDon 04:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Please name a country with the word Realm as part of its' name?
ArmchairVexillologistDon 23:56, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I know I'm a newcomer to this article and I gather there's quite a history here, but I have a question for ArmchairVexillologistDon. I gather that you believe that the name and focus of this article aren't the best way of describing the information contained in it. Having said that, I'm sure there are other articles on Wikipedia that you believe contain a more accurate description that could be even further improved with the benefit of your expertise. My question is, why don't you spend more of your time and energy working on editing and improving those articles, and less time venting negative energy at this one? Regards,
Newyorkbrad
00:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
As far as I can see there is no proposal on the table here. AVD doesn't like the term Commonwealth Realm nor the article that discusses it. This is his right, whatever I or anyone else may think of his reasons. But he's also not actually proposing to change anything, and nor is anybody else. So let's just drop this whole discussion. -- Chris Bennett 08:09, 14 November 2006 (UTC)