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This article should be called something like 'Acts of collective punishment throughout history'. It contains no relevant information about rights or laws that protect against collective punishment in the modern word, nor any of the various definitions for the term under the law.
You could add in something about the guerre de la vendee http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonnes_infernales The first democratically sanctioned genocide
Sus scrofa: Please stop inserting unbalanced anti-Israel POV. "Unambigious" and "clear cut" are unambigious and clear cut indications of an anti-Israel POV, as is eliminating any indication that pro-Israel people consider "collective punishment" an anti-Israel code word while maintaining that pro-US people consider it an anti-American code word, the latter being a far more questionable statemtent. Any critical mind looking at the article would see the tenor of language and realize that it is not reliable as is. I'll try to rework the language to make it more balanced, but please take your anti-Israel stance to a discussion board (e.g., here) rather than hashing it out on the article page. Calbaer 20:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm deleting the mention of proportionality (political maxim), since collective punishment can be proportional in the sense of the proportionality (political maxim) article. For example, taking hostage a family member of a terrorist might be the most effective way of achieving a military objective, but it is often considered collective punishment. Even in the sense of proportionality in war, the Japanese American internment was proportional, as it led to the deaths of fewer people, led to the injuries of fewer people, and affected fewer people than Japanese attacks on American interests. Yet it too is often considered collective punishment, and for good reason. Thoughts? Calbaer 22:48, 15 July 2006 (UTC).
My thought is that you're a stupid fucking shithead and hide your neoliberal agenda behind a veneer of "neutrality." Any discussion of gaza that doesn't discuss israel's many warcrimes and its unquestionable use of collective punishment is by definition not neutral and not reliable.
Actions have to satisfy several criteria in order not to be considered collective punishment. It is possible to fit the rule of law and still be collective punishment. If you want to make the argument that the "rule of law" in war is the Geneva Conventions and that covers proportionality, then at least you have an argument. Otherwise, proportionality is a main criteria for collective punishment. What about Hussein's killing citizens in Dujail after an assassination attempt? As a dictator, he is law. However, what he did to some citizens was not proportional. It also fails our understanding of "due process" (although that has taken quite a hit lately with the problems the US has discovered with due process).
Your examples of proportional actions are flawed. What I understand you to say is that anything goes so long as it achieves some military goal. Most likely, you don't understand the concept as used in, for example, the Geneva Conventions. This concept has nothing to do with "most effective way of achieving a military objective," or "cost fewer lives." Instead it reserves rights to noncombatants (in the real sense, not the way the US currently uses the term). If someone from my city kills a general, it is "reasonable" to expect some inconveniences, such as short detentions or curfews, etc. If we are beaten while being arrested, mostly likely noone would raise a fuss. If the army cuts off the water, electricity, gas, sewage, etc. to the entire city permanantly, or doesn't lift the curfew periodically to allow for citizens to get supplies, then there is probably a problem with proportionality. Whether or not that is a good tactic to get the assassin is irrelevant. Ted Talk/ Contributions 01:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
It is interesting that there was a time when Britain or Germany or the US freely used the term "collective punishment" instead of doing it and pretending it is something else. I added some examples of official collective punishment. Certainly there are more, but these I found in the New York Times historical files. In 1914 authorities on the laws of war as they were formulated then said that collective punishment was the only recourse when, say, a partisan sniper shoots a sentry in an occupied country, since the occupiers were unlikely to catch the shooter who will be concealed by the populace, even if the saw him do it. Some said the problem was when you burn the village as a reprisal, you just create 100 more shooters. Edison 05:17, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Someone has made repeated use of uncheckable clips from the New York Times as proof that the English used communal punishment in places like 1920s Palestine, Malaya, Kenya, Cyprus etc.
None of the actions of the English in these places resulted in the huge backlash from the population that the actions of other powers have frequently done (eg post-1967 Palestine, Vietnam, Iraq, Chechnya etc).
Either the English were as so nasty that the technique worked (as it did for the Nazis) or else what they were doing was considered proportionate and "fair" to other civilians in the region.
If the latter, then it's not the well-recognised crime of "communal punishment" (whatever themselves called it). MalcolmKing 20:20, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
My recent edits, which were consistently edit-summarized, have been reverted solely on the grounds that "actually [previous version] is more NPOV". Perhaps I have not explained myself thoroughly enough. I will do so phrase-by-phrase.
Clearly both have talked of collective punishment, but it's more notable and important that human rights groups have. One would expect Palestinian supporters to criticize Israel regardless, so it doesn't mean much. The fact that human rights groups have said the same thing is more informative.
Both mean essentially the same thing, but the second is more readable. If "described" is viewed as too sympathetic, "criticized" or "condemned" would be acceptable. Using tangled language on behalf of Israel's critics might have the effect of downplaying their claims.
The Israeli house demolitions are NOT limited to terrorists; in fact, the policy of destroying bombers' homes is probably a propaganda device to obscure a much more widespread and ongoing policy of punitive demolitions. In particular, Israel has demolished homes in Gaza on the basis that they are, or might be, termination points for smugglers' tunnels. They've demolished homes in West Bank and Gaza on the basis that their military forces have received fire from those homes, although firing on soldiers engaged in military operations is by definition not terrorism. Attempting to limit the discussion to homes of terrorists masks broader issues. In fact, the version I created is STILL somewhat POV towards Israel, because many house demolitions are conducted with NO officially stated reasons at all; just an administrative order by military authorities, and a gunpoint 30-minute-warning in the dead of night.
The particular interpretation and application of the conventions is open to dispute, but not the wording itself. "Citation needed" is insult to injury. The article reads as if we don't know whether or not the Palestinians even made these allegations!
If the "citation needed" tag is meant to apply to the "policy of systematic destruction" part, then this is more sensible. Widespread destruction of civilian infrastructure is an indisputable fact which I can cite; the "systematic" nature, and whether it is a "policy", may be open to dispute but should at least be reported as allegations.
In conclusion, I would appreciate at least SOME attempt to document and discuss edits, rather than giving the appearance of "reflex" reversion of all edits which might be seen to impugn Israel.
Eleland 02:49, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
I am thinking that stopping direct trade, no sporting or other cultural links, which results in far worse conditions in the north, because of the actons of the various other powers (Republic of Cyprus/Greece/Turkey) is an act of collective punishment. Should it be included in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.245.111 ( talk • contribs)
There are many more modern instances of Collective Punishment in the world than Israel/Palestine. I believe that the article needs more of these for the sake of balance. I have endeavored to add a few today. Please help with this.
As it stands today I believe that at least a part of the article has been commandeered by people seeking to use it to push an anti-Israel point of view. I have tried as best I can to ensure that both sides of the argument (whether Israel's actions are or are not collective punishment) are represented fairly. ForeverFreeSpeech ( talk) 19:38, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
WTF? "reasonable and evenhanded" - this the same HRW and AI I know of, who regularly bitch and moan in countries that have free speech but barely raise a whisper about countries like China and Iran and Saudi Arabia who beat people up just for showing a cross necklace?
It would probably go a long way towards civility in this article if you would explain these edits. I have no doubt that you probably do not mind some of them but in a fit of WP:COI reverted much more than you otherwise would, given the poisonous nature of the Israeli/Palestinian debate. M1rth ( talk) 16:59, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I am not so sure I can agree with you. The UN faces a large amount of condemnation, particularly for putting human rights abusers on its human rights councils and for the lopsided voting structure. This is especially true since "special sessions" have been held numerous times to make some pretty outrageous claims against Israel, and yet it took the UN more than a year to even take up the question of what was happening in Darfur.
The Red Cross has been very biased in creating the Red Crescent subshoot, while not allowing Israel's emergency medical personnel (the Magen David Adom) to join for 57 years (they first applied in 1949 and were only allowed to join in 2006). There have also been numerous documented incidents of Red Cross vehicles being used as transportation vehicles by the Palestinian side as well as propaganda tools. Amnesty International seems highly anti-Western in general - as evidenced by its failure to condemn the mockery that was the 2001 UN conference in Durban.
The underlying problem with this is that even while an organization's leadership may make a claim to be unbiased, the information that they are getting from the Israel/Palestine area cannot hope to be unbiased. They are as vulnerable as anyone else to emotional attachments, "fudged" reports, and outright lies. The Israel/Palestine situation is a poisonous atmosphere, and so I am very careful when viewing reports on it even from sources I would otherwise find trustworthy and I think you should do so as well. Normally, HRW/Amnesty International would be considered reliable, but in this case all sides need to be triple-checked or more and their biases accounted for.
The other problem is that while many of these groups are "international", Israel is one nation surrounded by a large number of hostile nations, and thus we have a severe problem if we fall into the trap of declaring that the Israeli groups responding to the biased reporting from these groups are themselves "less notable" or, more to the point, not worthy of having their side represented in keeping with WP:NPOV. M1rth ( talk) 16:13, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
I believe that the presence of the Israel/Palestine section in this article is a detriment to the article, getting in the way of making the article better since so many edits pass through its lens. I will list a few points:
I believe that point #3 is the best solution to prevent edit warring on this topic and make this topic easier for editors to improve. M1rth ( talk) 07:49, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Is that not what I just suggested, spinning the content out to Israeli-Palestinian conflict and leaving a link in this article, rather than have this article be yet another poisonous Israel/Palestinian POV-pushers battleground? Also, regarding Sometimes neutral treatment of facts reflects very poorly on one side or another, because the facts themselves are not "neutral" in the sense of 1:1 correspondence between two sides. - I refer you to above, where I was able to find a number of sources that fit reliability and indicate that the various sources you mention are themselves biased in this instance. Regardless, this is yet another reason to try to keep such a conflict off of this page and in the sector of Israel/Palestine articles where it belongs. M1rth ( talk) 08:03, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
That would be fine by me.—Preceding unsigned comment added by ForeverFreeSpeech ( talk • contribs) 14:51, 25 February 2008
As Per Consensus of this RfC, I have moved the section to Israeli-Palestinian_conflict#Collective_punishment. M1rth ( talk) 22:19, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
The headline of this article is of a very general subject. Since most of the Article's contents are about The history of Collective Punishment, it should be general. The capacity and nature of information about a state's Collective Punishment should be equal to another, and a single state's one cant be bigger than or equal to that of a hole century (Let alone a section about a conflict that deals with one side of it). It is unproportional, unprofessional, and by doing so you are being sympathetic to a certain state and its history, making the Article Opinionated, political and journalistic, not informative as encyclopedia should be. I recommend all state's examples should be removed until edited on an equal basis.-- Bob1969 ( talk) 10:49, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
WTF? The most discussed example of collective punishment of our time isn't worth mentioning in this article? This is a good example of why Wikipedia is almost totally worthless in this area.
Grace Note (
talk) 00:03, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
The example being 'The most discussed of our time' is not a fact, but an opinion which you share. The fact that it is the most discussed in the Media doesnt and shouldnt serve as a basis for writing and editing informative (Encylopedic) Articles. Reasons: my previous post. -- Bob1969 ( talk) 11:52, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
The article seems to be an aspect of the Geneva Conventions. Using it to label conflicts that occurred before they were in place seems excessively revisionist and in violation of WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. Wouldnt it be better just to link the individual articles on the topics to this page so that people might make up their own minds? The article seems to give an excessively brief treatment of the topic at hand but has a very long list of examples. I dont know enough about the topic personally but Im sure someone does. Savonneux ( talk) 10:17, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
This article is too heavily focused the citation of large scale historical example of the phenomenon. There an absence of the role of collective punishment generally within cultural contexts. The use of collective punishment within, for example, eduction systems may seem trivial when compared the scale of atrocities afflicted across nations but this belies it's significance in terms of it's social and psychological impact.
Also there is no acknowledgment on the on the removal of civil liberties by governments in order to combat perceived threats. This form of collective punishment is probably the most historically significant. Fourisplenty ( talk) 09:16, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
It would seem this is a popular social control method, especially in Europe, from medieval times up to recent times. Which is to say in use under (state) law. Since when has it become against international law, eg. crime against humanity, violation of laws of war, etc.? Can citations be found for this view? Int21h ( talk) 22:54, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
I've removed an old POV template with a dormant discussion, per the instructions on that template's page:
If editors are continuing to work toward resolution of any issue and I missed it, however, please feel free to restore. Cheers, -- Khazar2 ( talk) 12:56, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Do international sanctions (e.g. the west's current sanctions on Iran over its nuclear enrichment) constitute collective punishment? Some have argued that it does. Matt2h ( talk) 14:58, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
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here I restored appropriately sourced information regarding the kin of terrorists killed by US forces in recent air strikes. The reverting editor, who does this over several pages whenever the subject is the US failed to note that the phenomenon is already cited earlier on this page to define US actions ( in the 20th century). Further, while advising me to address the talk page, he reverted without giving any argument at all for the removal. POV pushing, as it stands. Nishidani ( talk) 17:19, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
Two U.S. officials speaking on condition of anonymity stated that the target of the October 14, 2011 airstrike was Ibrahim al-Banna, an Egyptian believed to be a senior operative in Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula.[8] Another U.S. administration official speaking on condition of anonymity described Abdulrahman al-Awlaki as a bystander who was "in the wrong place at the wrong time," stating that "the U.S. government did not know that Mr. Awlaki’s son was there" before the airstrike was ordered.[8] Former White House press secretary Robert Gibbs commented on the airstrike: "Maybe he (Abdulrahman Anwar al-Awlaki) should've had a more responsible father."[9][10] To say that it was collective punishment fails to use sources wisely, and shows perhaps your nationalist interest. Sir Joseph (talk) 21:12, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Is a US drone strike that killed the child of a suspected terrorist, added here, an example of collective punishment? Brad v 20:48, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
Sir Joseph (talk) 21:11, 31 January 2017 (UTC)Two U.S. officials speaking on condition of anonymity stated that the target of the October 14, 2011 airstrike was Ibrahim al-Banna, an Egyptian believed to be a senior operative in Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula.[8] Another U.S. administration official speaking on condition of anonymity described Abdulrahman al-Awlaki as a bystander who was "in the wrong place at the wrong time," stating that "the U.S. government did not know that Mr. Awlaki’s son was there" before the airstrike was ordered.[8]
The sources Nishidani provided is mintpressnews, which is not a RS, and an opinion piece from the Atlantic, again not a RS. The article itself, quotes senior US officials who say that it wasn't a targeted killing. It's not clear why we need an RFC when the sources clearly don't agree with Nishidani. Sir Joseph (talk) 21:21, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
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Internment of Japanese citizens in the United States. The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. More, I would imagine. MultiPoly ( talk) 00:00, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
Supporter clubs are often collectively punished for the actions of single individuals, in an effort to get the clubs to self-police their members. Examples are numerous. For example this paper describes how the throwing of fireworks onto the field in the 2014 KNVB Cup final (the so-called Fireworks incident) resulted in the Ajax supporter club being fined 70,000€ and its supporters and supporters of PEC Zwolle being banned from any future Ajax-Zwolle games the following three years. Similar incidents have occurred in Sweden. Malmö FF in a similar incident was fined 800,000kr (80,000€) by UEFA. KetchupSalt ( talk) 14:01, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
I have added the ArbCom Arab-Israeli enforcement template as parts of this article relate to the Arab–Israeli conflict. It is obvious which parts. This means that editors who want to edit that content must be extendedconfirmed. If they are not extendedconfirmed they should submit an WP:ER and someone will handle it. Following the WP:EDITXY advice is a way to increase the chance of the edit request being accepted. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 01:48, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
Does this topic apply to websites? Because Discord appears to have a policy of banning by association for serious crimes. Sources: [7] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9rOLaH5dJs [8] https://www.reddit.com/r/discordapp/comments/svbyzp/can_you_get_banned_for_association/
Or would that be more appropriate on Discord's page? Wiimeiser ( talk) 07:03, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
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This article should be called something like 'Acts of collective punishment throughout history'. It contains no relevant information about rights or laws that protect against collective punishment in the modern word, nor any of the various definitions for the term under the law.
You could add in something about the guerre de la vendee http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonnes_infernales The first democratically sanctioned genocide
Sus scrofa: Please stop inserting unbalanced anti-Israel POV. "Unambigious" and "clear cut" are unambigious and clear cut indications of an anti-Israel POV, as is eliminating any indication that pro-Israel people consider "collective punishment" an anti-Israel code word while maintaining that pro-US people consider it an anti-American code word, the latter being a far more questionable statemtent. Any critical mind looking at the article would see the tenor of language and realize that it is not reliable as is. I'll try to rework the language to make it more balanced, but please take your anti-Israel stance to a discussion board (e.g., here) rather than hashing it out on the article page. Calbaer 20:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm deleting the mention of proportionality (political maxim), since collective punishment can be proportional in the sense of the proportionality (political maxim) article. For example, taking hostage a family member of a terrorist might be the most effective way of achieving a military objective, but it is often considered collective punishment. Even in the sense of proportionality in war, the Japanese American internment was proportional, as it led to the deaths of fewer people, led to the injuries of fewer people, and affected fewer people than Japanese attacks on American interests. Yet it too is often considered collective punishment, and for good reason. Thoughts? Calbaer 22:48, 15 July 2006 (UTC).
My thought is that you're a stupid fucking shithead and hide your neoliberal agenda behind a veneer of "neutrality." Any discussion of gaza that doesn't discuss israel's many warcrimes and its unquestionable use of collective punishment is by definition not neutral and not reliable.
Actions have to satisfy several criteria in order not to be considered collective punishment. It is possible to fit the rule of law and still be collective punishment. If you want to make the argument that the "rule of law" in war is the Geneva Conventions and that covers proportionality, then at least you have an argument. Otherwise, proportionality is a main criteria for collective punishment. What about Hussein's killing citizens in Dujail after an assassination attempt? As a dictator, he is law. However, what he did to some citizens was not proportional. It also fails our understanding of "due process" (although that has taken quite a hit lately with the problems the US has discovered with due process).
Your examples of proportional actions are flawed. What I understand you to say is that anything goes so long as it achieves some military goal. Most likely, you don't understand the concept as used in, for example, the Geneva Conventions. This concept has nothing to do with "most effective way of achieving a military objective," or "cost fewer lives." Instead it reserves rights to noncombatants (in the real sense, not the way the US currently uses the term). If someone from my city kills a general, it is "reasonable" to expect some inconveniences, such as short detentions or curfews, etc. If we are beaten while being arrested, mostly likely noone would raise a fuss. If the army cuts off the water, electricity, gas, sewage, etc. to the entire city permanantly, or doesn't lift the curfew periodically to allow for citizens to get supplies, then there is probably a problem with proportionality. Whether or not that is a good tactic to get the assassin is irrelevant. Ted Talk/ Contributions 01:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
It is interesting that there was a time when Britain or Germany or the US freely used the term "collective punishment" instead of doing it and pretending it is something else. I added some examples of official collective punishment. Certainly there are more, but these I found in the New York Times historical files. In 1914 authorities on the laws of war as they were formulated then said that collective punishment was the only recourse when, say, a partisan sniper shoots a sentry in an occupied country, since the occupiers were unlikely to catch the shooter who will be concealed by the populace, even if the saw him do it. Some said the problem was when you burn the village as a reprisal, you just create 100 more shooters. Edison 05:17, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Someone has made repeated use of uncheckable clips from the New York Times as proof that the English used communal punishment in places like 1920s Palestine, Malaya, Kenya, Cyprus etc.
None of the actions of the English in these places resulted in the huge backlash from the population that the actions of other powers have frequently done (eg post-1967 Palestine, Vietnam, Iraq, Chechnya etc).
Either the English were as so nasty that the technique worked (as it did for the Nazis) or else what they were doing was considered proportionate and "fair" to other civilians in the region.
If the latter, then it's not the well-recognised crime of "communal punishment" (whatever themselves called it). MalcolmKing 20:20, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
My recent edits, which were consistently edit-summarized, have been reverted solely on the grounds that "actually [previous version] is more NPOV". Perhaps I have not explained myself thoroughly enough. I will do so phrase-by-phrase.
Clearly both have talked of collective punishment, but it's more notable and important that human rights groups have. One would expect Palestinian supporters to criticize Israel regardless, so it doesn't mean much. The fact that human rights groups have said the same thing is more informative.
Both mean essentially the same thing, but the second is more readable. If "described" is viewed as too sympathetic, "criticized" or "condemned" would be acceptable. Using tangled language on behalf of Israel's critics might have the effect of downplaying their claims.
The Israeli house demolitions are NOT limited to terrorists; in fact, the policy of destroying bombers' homes is probably a propaganda device to obscure a much more widespread and ongoing policy of punitive demolitions. In particular, Israel has demolished homes in Gaza on the basis that they are, or might be, termination points for smugglers' tunnels. They've demolished homes in West Bank and Gaza on the basis that their military forces have received fire from those homes, although firing on soldiers engaged in military operations is by definition not terrorism. Attempting to limit the discussion to homes of terrorists masks broader issues. In fact, the version I created is STILL somewhat POV towards Israel, because many house demolitions are conducted with NO officially stated reasons at all; just an administrative order by military authorities, and a gunpoint 30-minute-warning in the dead of night.
The particular interpretation and application of the conventions is open to dispute, but not the wording itself. "Citation needed" is insult to injury. The article reads as if we don't know whether or not the Palestinians even made these allegations!
If the "citation needed" tag is meant to apply to the "policy of systematic destruction" part, then this is more sensible. Widespread destruction of civilian infrastructure is an indisputable fact which I can cite; the "systematic" nature, and whether it is a "policy", may be open to dispute but should at least be reported as allegations.
In conclusion, I would appreciate at least SOME attempt to document and discuss edits, rather than giving the appearance of "reflex" reversion of all edits which might be seen to impugn Israel.
Eleland 02:49, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
I am thinking that stopping direct trade, no sporting or other cultural links, which results in far worse conditions in the north, because of the actons of the various other powers (Republic of Cyprus/Greece/Turkey) is an act of collective punishment. Should it be included in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.245.111 ( talk • contribs)
There are many more modern instances of Collective Punishment in the world than Israel/Palestine. I believe that the article needs more of these for the sake of balance. I have endeavored to add a few today. Please help with this.
As it stands today I believe that at least a part of the article has been commandeered by people seeking to use it to push an anti-Israel point of view. I have tried as best I can to ensure that both sides of the argument (whether Israel's actions are or are not collective punishment) are represented fairly. ForeverFreeSpeech ( talk) 19:38, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
WTF? "reasonable and evenhanded" - this the same HRW and AI I know of, who regularly bitch and moan in countries that have free speech but barely raise a whisper about countries like China and Iran and Saudi Arabia who beat people up just for showing a cross necklace?
It would probably go a long way towards civility in this article if you would explain these edits. I have no doubt that you probably do not mind some of them but in a fit of WP:COI reverted much more than you otherwise would, given the poisonous nature of the Israeli/Palestinian debate. M1rth ( talk) 16:59, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I am not so sure I can agree with you. The UN faces a large amount of condemnation, particularly for putting human rights abusers on its human rights councils and for the lopsided voting structure. This is especially true since "special sessions" have been held numerous times to make some pretty outrageous claims against Israel, and yet it took the UN more than a year to even take up the question of what was happening in Darfur.
The Red Cross has been very biased in creating the Red Crescent subshoot, while not allowing Israel's emergency medical personnel (the Magen David Adom) to join for 57 years (they first applied in 1949 and were only allowed to join in 2006). There have also been numerous documented incidents of Red Cross vehicles being used as transportation vehicles by the Palestinian side as well as propaganda tools. Amnesty International seems highly anti-Western in general - as evidenced by its failure to condemn the mockery that was the 2001 UN conference in Durban.
The underlying problem with this is that even while an organization's leadership may make a claim to be unbiased, the information that they are getting from the Israel/Palestine area cannot hope to be unbiased. They are as vulnerable as anyone else to emotional attachments, "fudged" reports, and outright lies. The Israel/Palestine situation is a poisonous atmosphere, and so I am very careful when viewing reports on it even from sources I would otherwise find trustworthy and I think you should do so as well. Normally, HRW/Amnesty International would be considered reliable, but in this case all sides need to be triple-checked or more and their biases accounted for.
The other problem is that while many of these groups are "international", Israel is one nation surrounded by a large number of hostile nations, and thus we have a severe problem if we fall into the trap of declaring that the Israeli groups responding to the biased reporting from these groups are themselves "less notable" or, more to the point, not worthy of having their side represented in keeping with WP:NPOV. M1rth ( talk) 16:13, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
I believe that the presence of the Israel/Palestine section in this article is a detriment to the article, getting in the way of making the article better since so many edits pass through its lens. I will list a few points:
I believe that point #3 is the best solution to prevent edit warring on this topic and make this topic easier for editors to improve. M1rth ( talk) 07:49, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Is that not what I just suggested, spinning the content out to Israeli-Palestinian conflict and leaving a link in this article, rather than have this article be yet another poisonous Israel/Palestinian POV-pushers battleground? Also, regarding Sometimes neutral treatment of facts reflects very poorly on one side or another, because the facts themselves are not "neutral" in the sense of 1:1 correspondence between two sides. - I refer you to above, where I was able to find a number of sources that fit reliability and indicate that the various sources you mention are themselves biased in this instance. Regardless, this is yet another reason to try to keep such a conflict off of this page and in the sector of Israel/Palestine articles where it belongs. M1rth ( talk) 08:03, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
That would be fine by me.—Preceding unsigned comment added by ForeverFreeSpeech ( talk • contribs) 14:51, 25 February 2008
As Per Consensus of this RfC, I have moved the section to Israeli-Palestinian_conflict#Collective_punishment. M1rth ( talk) 22:19, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
The headline of this article is of a very general subject. Since most of the Article's contents are about The history of Collective Punishment, it should be general. The capacity and nature of information about a state's Collective Punishment should be equal to another, and a single state's one cant be bigger than or equal to that of a hole century (Let alone a section about a conflict that deals with one side of it). It is unproportional, unprofessional, and by doing so you are being sympathetic to a certain state and its history, making the Article Opinionated, political and journalistic, not informative as encyclopedia should be. I recommend all state's examples should be removed until edited on an equal basis.-- Bob1969 ( talk) 10:49, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
WTF? The most discussed example of collective punishment of our time isn't worth mentioning in this article? This is a good example of why Wikipedia is almost totally worthless in this area.
Grace Note (
talk) 00:03, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
The example being 'The most discussed of our time' is not a fact, but an opinion which you share. The fact that it is the most discussed in the Media doesnt and shouldnt serve as a basis for writing and editing informative (Encylopedic) Articles. Reasons: my previous post. -- Bob1969 ( talk) 11:52, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
The article seems to be an aspect of the Geneva Conventions. Using it to label conflicts that occurred before they were in place seems excessively revisionist and in violation of WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. Wouldnt it be better just to link the individual articles on the topics to this page so that people might make up their own minds? The article seems to give an excessively brief treatment of the topic at hand but has a very long list of examples. I dont know enough about the topic personally but Im sure someone does. Savonneux ( talk) 10:17, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
This article is too heavily focused the citation of large scale historical example of the phenomenon. There an absence of the role of collective punishment generally within cultural contexts. The use of collective punishment within, for example, eduction systems may seem trivial when compared the scale of atrocities afflicted across nations but this belies it's significance in terms of it's social and psychological impact.
Also there is no acknowledgment on the on the removal of civil liberties by governments in order to combat perceived threats. This form of collective punishment is probably the most historically significant. Fourisplenty ( talk) 09:16, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
It would seem this is a popular social control method, especially in Europe, from medieval times up to recent times. Which is to say in use under (state) law. Since when has it become against international law, eg. crime against humanity, violation of laws of war, etc.? Can citations be found for this view? Int21h ( talk) 22:54, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
I've removed an old POV template with a dormant discussion, per the instructions on that template's page:
If editors are continuing to work toward resolution of any issue and I missed it, however, please feel free to restore. Cheers, -- Khazar2 ( talk) 12:56, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Do international sanctions (e.g. the west's current sanctions on Iran over its nuclear enrichment) constitute collective punishment? Some have argued that it does. Matt2h ( talk) 14:58, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
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here I restored appropriately sourced information regarding the kin of terrorists killed by US forces in recent air strikes. The reverting editor, who does this over several pages whenever the subject is the US failed to note that the phenomenon is already cited earlier on this page to define US actions ( in the 20th century). Further, while advising me to address the talk page, he reverted without giving any argument at all for the removal. POV pushing, as it stands. Nishidani ( talk) 17:19, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
Two U.S. officials speaking on condition of anonymity stated that the target of the October 14, 2011 airstrike was Ibrahim al-Banna, an Egyptian believed to be a senior operative in Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula.[8] Another U.S. administration official speaking on condition of anonymity described Abdulrahman al-Awlaki as a bystander who was "in the wrong place at the wrong time," stating that "the U.S. government did not know that Mr. Awlaki’s son was there" before the airstrike was ordered.[8] Former White House press secretary Robert Gibbs commented on the airstrike: "Maybe he (Abdulrahman Anwar al-Awlaki) should've had a more responsible father."[9][10] To say that it was collective punishment fails to use sources wisely, and shows perhaps your nationalist interest. Sir Joseph (talk) 21:12, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Is a US drone strike that killed the child of a suspected terrorist, added here, an example of collective punishment? Brad v 20:48, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
Sir Joseph (talk) 21:11, 31 January 2017 (UTC)Two U.S. officials speaking on condition of anonymity stated that the target of the October 14, 2011 airstrike was Ibrahim al-Banna, an Egyptian believed to be a senior operative in Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula.[8] Another U.S. administration official speaking on condition of anonymity described Abdulrahman al-Awlaki as a bystander who was "in the wrong place at the wrong time," stating that "the U.S. government did not know that Mr. Awlaki’s son was there" before the airstrike was ordered.[8]
The sources Nishidani provided is mintpressnews, which is not a RS, and an opinion piece from the Atlantic, again not a RS. The article itself, quotes senior US officials who say that it wasn't a targeted killing. It's not clear why we need an RFC when the sources clearly don't agree with Nishidani. Sir Joseph (talk) 21:21, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
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Internment of Japanese citizens in the United States. The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. More, I would imagine. MultiPoly ( talk) 00:00, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
Supporter clubs are often collectively punished for the actions of single individuals, in an effort to get the clubs to self-police their members. Examples are numerous. For example this paper describes how the throwing of fireworks onto the field in the 2014 KNVB Cup final (the so-called Fireworks incident) resulted in the Ajax supporter club being fined 70,000€ and its supporters and supporters of PEC Zwolle being banned from any future Ajax-Zwolle games the following three years. Similar incidents have occurred in Sweden. Malmö FF in a similar incident was fined 800,000kr (80,000€) by UEFA. KetchupSalt ( talk) 14:01, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
I have added the ArbCom Arab-Israeli enforcement template as parts of this article relate to the Arab–Israeli conflict. It is obvious which parts. This means that editors who want to edit that content must be extendedconfirmed. If they are not extendedconfirmed they should submit an WP:ER and someone will handle it. Following the WP:EDITXY advice is a way to increase the chance of the edit request being accepted. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 01:48, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
Does this topic apply to websites? Because Discord appears to have a policy of banning by association for serious crimes. Sources: [7] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9rOLaH5dJs [8] https://www.reddit.com/r/discordapp/comments/svbyzp/can_you_get_banned_for_association/
Or would that be more appropriate on Discord's page? Wiimeiser ( talk) 07:03, 7 May 2024 (UTC)