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![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Close helm was copied or moved into Close helmet on 23:41, 5 December 2012 (UTC). The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Close_helmet was copied or moved into close helm on 23:41, 5 December 2012 (UTC). The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
The page has no references and seems confused and confusing. The term smelting is incorrectly used. Armour was usually cold worked once the sheet was formed. The page seems to be describing early helmets with complete face protection, ancestral to the "great helm." These developed from about 1170, but one of the first illustrations of one is on the second great seal of Richard I of England in the 1190s. As far as I'm aware the various forms of "proto-great helm" have no recognised collective name, certainly not "close helmet". Also the illustration most definitely is of a close helm of the 16th century, not an early helmet with face-protection of the 12th century as described in the text! Incidentally "close helmet" and "close helm" are used interchangably in scholarship for the same type of 16th to 17th century helmet where a two-part visor and bevor all rotate from the same two rivet points on the sides of the skullpiece, another cogent reason to delete this article.
It strikes me that the creator of the page should have added a "development" section to the page Great helm rather than usurp a term already in use to describe a different helmet type. Urselius ( talk) 08:02, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a
wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the edit this page link at the top.
The Wikipedia community encourages you to
be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out
how to edit a page, or use the
sandbox to try out your editing skills.
New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to
log in (although there are
many reasons why you might want to).
Urselius (
talk)
11:35, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
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– Per discussion above. Neither article is quite right (and see the history, as recent changes have made this worse, not better, but the two articles refer to separate, distinct and both notable topics. However they are confused at present. A better start at re-working them would be made (especially as regards their edit history) if they were both re-named to exchange their current names.
Scope would then become:
The basic difficulty is that "close helm" is used in the available literature as an alternative to "close helmet" to describe the same 16-17th century helmet with a bevor attached to the same pivot as the visor(s).
To appropriate "close helm" to describe early fore-runners of the "great helm" dating to c. 1170-1220 is a neologism and as such cannot be countenanced in any form of encyclopedia.
The present article "Close helm" has to be renamed, there is no alternative. Urselius ( talk) 08:53, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
I have just searched Google Books and JSTOR, there is no usage of the term "close helm" for the transitional forms of helmet dating to c. 1170-1220. The majority of works call these "great helms" or describe a transition between helmets with nasals and great helms without giving any name to the intermediate forms. I found a single reputable source which called the intermediate form a "barrel helm." I would suggest that if you want to keep a separate article for these helmets that you call the article "Barrel helm". Urselius ( talk) 09:12, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
I have re-written most of the article, with greatly increased citation. I hope it makes better reading now. Urselius ( talk) 15:33, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
It redirects to the category Savoyard helmets, the right one is Close helmets ( https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Close_helmets). -- The real Marcoman ( talk) 01:20, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
![]() | Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This page was proposed for deletion by an editor in the past. |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Close helm was copied or moved into Close helmet on 23:41, 5 December 2012 (UTC). The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Close_helmet was copied or moved into close helm on 23:41, 5 December 2012 (UTC). The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
The page has no references and seems confused and confusing. The term smelting is incorrectly used. Armour was usually cold worked once the sheet was formed. The page seems to be describing early helmets with complete face protection, ancestral to the "great helm." These developed from about 1170, but one of the first illustrations of one is on the second great seal of Richard I of England in the 1190s. As far as I'm aware the various forms of "proto-great helm" have no recognised collective name, certainly not "close helmet". Also the illustration most definitely is of a close helm of the 16th century, not an early helmet with face-protection of the 12th century as described in the text! Incidentally "close helmet" and "close helm" are used interchangably in scholarship for the same type of 16th to 17th century helmet where a two-part visor and bevor all rotate from the same two rivet points on the sides of the skullpiece, another cogent reason to delete this article.
It strikes me that the creator of the page should have added a "development" section to the page Great helm rather than usurp a term already in use to describe a different helmet type. Urselius ( talk) 08:02, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a
wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the edit this page link at the top.
The Wikipedia community encourages you to
be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out
how to edit a page, or use the
sandbox to try out your editing skills.
New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to
log in (although there are
many reasons why you might want to).
Urselius (
talk)
11:35, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
External image | |
---|---|
![]() |
– Per discussion above. Neither article is quite right (and see the history, as recent changes have made this worse, not better, but the two articles refer to separate, distinct and both notable topics. However they are confused at present. A better start at re-working them would be made (especially as regards their edit history) if they were both re-named to exchange their current names.
Scope would then become:
The basic difficulty is that "close helm" is used in the available literature as an alternative to "close helmet" to describe the same 16-17th century helmet with a bevor attached to the same pivot as the visor(s).
To appropriate "close helm" to describe early fore-runners of the "great helm" dating to c. 1170-1220 is a neologism and as such cannot be countenanced in any form of encyclopedia.
The present article "Close helm" has to be renamed, there is no alternative. Urselius ( talk) 08:53, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
I have just searched Google Books and JSTOR, there is no usage of the term "close helm" for the transitional forms of helmet dating to c. 1170-1220. The majority of works call these "great helms" or describe a transition between helmets with nasals and great helms without giving any name to the intermediate forms. I found a single reputable source which called the intermediate form a "barrel helm." I would suggest that if you want to keep a separate article for these helmets that you call the article "Barrel helm". Urselius ( talk) 09:12, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
I have re-written most of the article, with greatly increased citation. I hope it makes better reading now. Urselius ( talk) 15:33, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
It redirects to the category Savoyard helmets, the right one is Close helmets ( https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Close_helmets). -- The real Marcoman ( talk) 01:20, 8 July 2017 (UTC)