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Yesterday King of Hearts posted the results of the AfD poll, he stated: "This article was nominated for deletion on 18 February 2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus."
Less than an hour later Sbandrews arbitrarily killed the article with the single word "redirect" as the only comment. The page is now reduced to a couple of paragraphs at the bottom of the Climate of Mars page where it will never be found or read. When the AfD was "no consensus" how do they have the right to unilaterally destroy hundreds of hours of work and go against the votes???
The documented history of Censorship (23 February 2007):
-- Rameses 05:08, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Before the Talk:Martian global warming page gets deleted, I have copied below the relevant discussion about censorship: -- Rameses 15:33, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
National Geographic are reporting on this issue now: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html Mixino1 00:14, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Oren0, he is writing about Martian warming. There appears to be evidence of warming occurring on other planets and this is certainly valid information to reference in this article as it points to a likely possible cause - the Sun. I have checked on the Global Warming article and it appears that William M. Connolley is colluding with others in a concerted effort to revert all changes which reflect any uncertainty regarding the fact of man made global warming. This kind of hijacking of Wikipedia will only discredit it as a source of unbiased, balanced information. -- Censorship Bias 02:53, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Here's proof of Wikifriends, with an axe to grind on climate change, taking it out of open discussion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:William_M._Connolley
I quote:
"SPM
Can we give Summary for policymakers a decent burial? Or even an indecent one? Is there a protocol to follow, or can I just move the (very small amount of) useful information in the article somewhere else? It's been tagged for merger several months now. Raymond Arritt 04:23, 3 January 2007 (UTC) Don't forget what links to it... [6] Gack. Is there no automagic way of taking care of such things? Raymond Arritt 22:28, 3 January 2007 (UTC) Well if you replaced it with a redirect to IPCC it would be transparent. I quite like the existence of a separate SPM page, myself William M. Connolley 22:35, 3 January 2007 (UTC)'"
What have you got against talking in the open? Mixino1 01:54, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Now they have gutted the article completely - almost everything has been deleted. This is obviously the prelude to deleting it altogether or "merging" it into Mars. This shows how far the Global warming pushers will go to hide any evidence that GW may be due to the obvious cause of the highest level of solar activity in 1,000 years (and probably in the last 8,000 years - according to the Max Planck Institute in Germany, See: The truth about global warming - it's the Sun that's to blame.). I expect to see this article and this discussion disappear soon as a result of blatant censorship. -- Rameses 18:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
At best, the consensus to move the Martian global warming page here was a weak one. I believe that the intent of those of us who voted for it was that Martian global warming would get fair play in this article, which it doesn't have at this point. Warming should at least be mentioned in the opening paragraph. Oren0 18:30, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
A merge of Martian global warming into Mars was proposed, then pre-empted by an AfD proposal. In the AfD, a plurality of responses (15 out of 31) favored merging Martian global warming into another article while most of the rest proposed deletion. Only four respondents recommended keeping Martian global warming as a separate article. Thus, am reopening the merge discussion following sentiments expressed in the AfD. Please give your comments here. Raymond Arritt 02:22, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
More blatant misuse of power over all global warming topics: What is the point of even having this discussion when William M. Connolley has already arbitrarily merged the articles without even pretending he cared what the rest of us think??? It is high time this Administrator was scrutinized - he should have his Administrator status revoked. -- Rameses 03:33, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Are we of the opinion that this article still needs cleanup? It seems reasonable enough to me. If so, please say which parts you believe need to be fixed. Oren0 07:04, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
"A lingering pre-scientific fascination with "the planet of war" also contributes to interest."? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.124.170.103 ( talk) 03:53, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Jakosky, B.M. & Haberle, R.M. "Year-to-year instability of the Mars Polar Cap" J.Geophys Res, 95, 1359-1365 (1990) If anyone with access to this article (I don't have) wants to paraphrase the reasons they give for the instability it would make a nice conclusion to this page, regards sbandrews 22:14, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Head, Science, 2003
-- Jespley 19:13, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm thinking of putting Climate of Mars forward for GAC - any comments, suggestions for improvements etc? sbandrews ( t) 20:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I just threw in some content from the Mars page into the section on polar caps. It needs cleaning up and expanding - we shouldn't have more on the general Mars page about this than on the climate-specific page. -- zandperl 00:25, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
FYI, this stuff is coming up at Political_positions_of_Fred_Thompson#Global_warming. He has been pushing this theory. Crust 14:15, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Since martian global warming was (weakly) considered part of climate of mars, but that decision was pretty strongly disputed, I propose that when Climate of Mars grows to the point where it's feasible to break it out, that section be broken back out to its own page. It's grown and matured and obviously it's its own controversial topic and really ought to be examined on its own. But on the other hand, I want to give fair notice that this is coming down the pike in talk so nobody can complain that it's some sort of politically motivated ambush. So, any thoughts on how to properly do it? TMLutas 16:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
I removed the following unsourced sentence:
Global warming on Mars cannot be caused by humanity and observable warming there does serve to cast doubt on current theories put out by anthropogenic global warming activists as there is a natural presumption against coincidence.
I first tried to improve it to:
Global warming on Mars cannot be caused by humanity and observable warming there is used to cast doubt on current theories by using the presumption that the correlation proves the Sun is warming up — despite all solar measurements suggesting otherwise.
However, I realized that was redundant. Ben Hocking ( talk| contribs) 19:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Dry ice submlimates, its doesn't evaporate William M. Connolley 20:11, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Taken from: http://www.mps.mpg.de/projects/sun-climate/resu_body.html
live links in the original.
Solar Variability of Possible Relevance for Planetary Climates (S.K. Solanki & N.A. Krivova 2006, Sp. Sci. Rev., vol. 125, 25-37) Modelling of irradiance variations through atmosphere models (N.A. Krivova & S.K. Solanki 2005, Mem. Soc. Astron. It., vol. 76, 834-841)
Solar irradiance variations: From current measurements to long-term estimates (S.K. Solanki & N.A. Krivova 2004, Sol. Phys., vol. 224, 197-208)
Solar total and spectral irradiance: Modelling and a possible impact on climate (N.A. Krivova & S.K. Solanki 2003, ESA SP-535, 275-284)
Reconstruction of solar irradiance variations in cycle 23: Is solar surface magnetism the cause? (N.A. Krivova, S.K. Solanki, M. Fligge & Y.C. Unruh 2003, A&A 399, L1-L4)
Harold Jeffreys Lecture: Solar variability and climate change: is there a link? (S.K. Solanki 2002, Astronomy & Geophysics, vol. 43, issue 5, 5.09-5.13)
Klimaveraenderung - Treibhauseffekt oder Sonnenaktivitaet? ( D. Schmitt & M. Schuessler 2002, Astronomie + Raumfahrt im Unterricht 39, 5, 31-35, in German)
Evolution of the Sun's large-scale magnetic field since the Maunder minimum (S.K. Solanki, M.Schuessler & M. Fligge 2000, Nature 408, 445-447) TMLutas 21:49, 6 September 2007 (UTC) (sig added later)
Somewhere along the way recently we seem to have lost this: ^ S. K. Solanki (2004). "Unusual activity of the Sun during recent decades compared to the previous 11,000 years". Nature 431: 1084-1087. DOI:10.1038/nature02995. Retrieved on 2007-02-26. Is there really any reason why this is not considered relevant as part of an examination of why Mars might be getting warmer? Keep the solar theorist fringer in but let's wipe out the peer reviewed stuff is not good behavior. Perhaps a mistake? TMLutas 23:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
How can people possibly be talking about global warming on mars in the absence of a time series for its temperature? Is there one? If so, why aren't we referring to it? Ab vapours on about "parrallel warmings" without telling us: what period; what the change is on Mars; indeed anything at all really William M. Connolley 20:40, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
End the above threads, please. This nonsense remains nonsense, and has already been purged from Wikipedia at least three times. See the discussions for deletion on 'solar system warming' and 'martian global warming'. I was involved in the debunking, which was thorough. For the last time: there is no censorship of Wikipedia. I'll still be branded part of a non-existent conspiracy, since I predict that the fanatics will not accept any denial. My lack of patience with such is why I've largely ceased editing. Michaelbusch 23:04, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
William Connolly seems to be intent on an edit war. I'm not up for that childishness so I just NPOV'd the section and would like to talk it out here. I think that it is a reasonable position to state that warming is being detected, lay out the facts as they exist today, and give the various theories as to extent and causation. Mr Connolly seems to disagree, repeatedly changing what's been the approach to this section for quite some time. So please justify your edits, I didn't remove them yet. TMLutas 21:25, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Well TML can *almost* spell my name and I don't usually insist on Dr, so we're not too far adrift. "I think that it is a reasonable position to state that warming is being detected" - is it really? In which case... by how much has Mars warmed over the last... whenever. Silly question really, because we all know that you don't know. I see no evidence at all that anyone has a global time series for Martian temperature, and without that there is nothing but local proxy evidence. I'm happy to be proved wrong, and would be very interested to see it if there is one. To clarify, try these questions: (1) have you seen a global or hemispheric time series for Mars? (2) do you have reason to believe that one exists? (3) do you have any evidence for change anywhere outside the south polar region? William M. Connolley 08:07, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
RA modded the text to There are presently no time series of Martian data long enough to establish "climate" in a statistically meaningful sense. - this is true, but carries the implication that there are at least some data points... are there? William M. Connolley 08:19, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
A prerequistite for discussing climate change should be some knowledge of the climate. This article oddly lacks a "temperature" section. We should add one, summarising what is known William M. Connolley 19:07, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I've made a start. Note that the martian atmosphere is very thin - 1/100 of earth - and a radiosonde at 10 mb in the sunlight on earth would be in need of radiation corrections. Mind you the sunlight is weaker there. I wonder if they designed this into the sensors? William M. Connolley 19:23, 8 September 2007 (UTC) This [2] is an interesting paper - frustratingly lacking the figs! I haven't found any useful data ain it yet, though... Unfortunately, the record of air temperature from the Viking IRTM instrument was evidently contaminated, making the extended, multispacecraft air temperature record the most tainted (relative to the dust and water ice records). suggests there may be problems William M. Connolley 19:35, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
The changes referred to are local, of course, but I don't see that we have proof that the causes are local. This is as I said in my last edit summary.
The fact that you reverted all my changes - including the correction of the degree symbol - can only be intended as an insult. It is likely that you are doing this because you think I am a global warming 'sceptic' (I am not) and that you believe such should be harassed as much as possible.
The paragraph I had removed was likely intended to bash 'sceptics' and as such can not be appropriate for this article, which is about Mars, not Earth. In addition it incorrectly uses the Nature source, as I explained above. The way, the truth, and the light 21:34, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Added by TML. No source for it, clearly a leading statement. Might be acceptable if qualified by "there is no evidence for a trend" William M. Connolley 09:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
TML added this to the sandox - at least I presume thats what he means. Interesting ref, good quotes ""Odyssey is giving us indications of recent global climate change in Mars," said Jeffrey Plaut, project scientist for the mission at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory.", how to explain it away :-?
Firstly, there are no time scales. Does "recent" mean years, decades, millenia? Second its just a web site, and the quote is from 2003, so anything useable there should have got into the literature by now. This looks like the source, but its just a meeting talk.
Icarus is a journal, but the text there is more cautious. The only timescale mentioned is 10 kyr
William M. Connolley 17:51, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
not every notable view on scientific topics is documented in science journals. Reliability is determined neutrally, using WP:RS and evidence of the community's view. The primary purpose of WP:RS is to clarify and guide communal views on the reliability of different sources, not to support unilateral demands for an unreasonably narrow personal definition of "reliable" as a means to exclude appropriate sources that document notable opposing views.
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Maybe I'm mistaken, but I think everyone involved in the disputes above needs to remember Wikipedia:No original research. Connelley is quite right to insist on reliable sourcing, but that is not enough. Michaelbusch 21:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Other than myself, nobody ever used Ben Hocking's sandbox so what's the point of contributing there in good faith trying to avoid an edit war? I'll do a review as I can to get all my changes in the main article. After that, I'd kill the subpage. TMLutas 18:40, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
From RA's recent edit explanation "Replaced problematic interpretation with a direct quote from one of the cited scientists". I thought the replaced sentence "The observed trend so far is a warming one though nobody is currently asserting an airtight case has been established for any particular theory." was a straightforward summary of the facts we have so far. I'd even go so far as "the observed trend, where there is a trend, is a warming one though nobody is currently asserting an airtight case has been established for any particular theory."
I would like some sort of summary of the evidence that tries to make sense of it all, not just a grab-bag of evidence. I'm just not interested in doing so to a cry of "original research, original research". I'm looking for a structure of here's evidence of something going on, this is the trend we've got based on incomplete data, and here is a grab bag of contending theories that try to explain it all. Ideally we'd eventually sort them as to weight but I'm not sure we can do that honestly other than put the direct solar warming stuff at the end (due to the TSI measurements that contradict the theory).
So I'm opening the floor to better ideas to the end of the week. If Monday rolls around and nobody has a better idea, I'll put something back in. TMLutas 19:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
the Astronomy on Mars article has an interesting NASA pic speculating what Mars looked like during an ice age. Any objection to eventually putting it up in the article? Here's the pic. TMLutas 21:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
The more I think about it, the more I think Abdusamatov's claims aren't relevant to the article. Given the lack of reputability he currently enjoys, I don't see them as notable and anything that shouldn't be removed under the ArbCom Pseudoscience case. There are more than enough crazy claims about global warming - we don't need to spread them. Michaelbusch 22:24, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
If you run Abdumsamtov through Google, you get ~15000 hits. Coupling that with Mars drops it down to <1000, none of which are news sources indexed by Google and many of which were a relic of my keyword choice. The only news outlet that covered him talking about Mars was a series in the Canada National Post, which seems to have been a general assemblage of all manner of dubious, and sometimes mutually contradicting, claims of the Sun causing global warming. The National Post is known for publishing such, apparently. One story only, which has been copied to a few hundred pages. Of these, very many are critical and many are Wikipedia mirrors. By comparison, there are several hundred thousand references to the climate of Mars. Michaelbusch 22:50, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the solar-variation stuff needs to be in here. But its a mistake to focus on A. I think we should have a section on assertions that martian warming shows that earth warming is natural, and why there is no real evidence for this. A is only a minor part; he is in because, weak as he is, its the only ref with a shred of credibility. We have filtered out the nonsense too well William M. Connolley 09:10, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Atmosphere of Mars seems intimately related to Climate of Mars, especially with regards to the low atmospheric pressure section. There doesn't seem to be any formal link other than a "see also" link at the bottom. I propose reorganizing things so that atmosphere features that impact climate be demoted underneath an atmosphere section and grouped together with an in section "see main article" link be made back to atmosphere of Mars. Any objections? TMLutas 18:10, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
better polar scarps pictures available here that show the length of the evidence available. Since the camera taking this recently died, it's likely not going to get better than this. It's credited as a NASA/JPL photo so there should be no copyright issues. TMLutas 13:57, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
I removed the ice age section again:
Its (a) non-notable and (b) very speculative (indeed [7] has Feldman "speculating" not "saying". It was said in 2003, after one year of Mars obs; you cannot deduce a trend from one year.
Also, the pacemakers stuff has no clear connection. Indeed, the pacemaker article says In contrast to Earth's ice ages, a Martian ice age waxes when the poles warm, and water vapor is transported toward lower latitudes. Martian ice ages wane when the poles cool and lock water into polar icecaps... so if an ice age has just ended, the poles are cooling, not warming William M. Connolley 16:02, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't particularly think that Abdusamatov has things right but for wikipedia's purposes, this is *irrelevant* and smarmy notes on edits implying I hold opinions I do not are ill advised. This encyclopedia, by policy, is aiming at verifiable (ie the position can be sourced as actually having been held), notable opinions and not at a grand search for truth. If WP were looking for truth, it would not open up edits to everybody the way it does.
Abdusamatov's position can be debunked, and I think it has been adequately debunked in the article. If you want to make the debunking larger, more detailed, knock yourself out. You may be surprised to find me editing to improve the debunking. I have before. I have defended others' edits recently and in the more distant past, trying to preserve and even expand points that do not necessarily agree with what I personally feel is going on regarding the recent odd data that's popping up. That's because I think that the positions were a good stub for a notable current of opinion and deserved to be in the article on that basis. Others have disagreed that all viewpoints deserve to have a respectable amount of time to demonstrate that they are notable and have engaged in what I view as slash and burn deletion. But there's worse than slash and burn out there.
I don't think cheap propaganda tricks such as making titles disagree with the content of the paragraph and the actual assertions by the scientist whose position is being described is acceptable at Wikipedia. Leave that to the NY Times. They're better at it and they already seem to have pawned off their soul decades ago (see Walter Duranty). TMLutas 19:32, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
I didn't put in my reason in the edit note for reverting MB's latest content reducing edit which was that he knocked out a peer reviewed study (actually multiple studies, I was being conservative) by vaguely asserting that it had been debunked but not providing any rationale why the question was settled in favor of his interpretation nor providing links documenting his assertion. Now it may very well be true that the Duke study and the related Columbia study the ref refers to have been shown to be in error but wiping things out like that deserves a higher standard than he demonstrated. I'm only sorry that I quick fingered the edit and didn't refer to the talk page when I reverted him. Hopefully he'll come by and see this before the issue spirals to a revert war. TMLutas 20:05, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I was in a hurry, and didn't explain: if I remember correctly, the Duke study relied on stratospheric temperature measurements from balloon probes, which were found to be systematically off due to a design flaw (reported in Science last year). As Connolley notes, this is better kept under solar variation. Michaelbusch 20:29, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
So far as I can tell, there are two complete systems of categorizing ages on Mars. Sorting out age descriptions is important for the paleoclimatology section. I can see describing inline and using both or picking one and sticking to it with an explanation why. What's the consensus on this? TMLutas 20:37, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Ok, that's one opinion for Noachian et al age system being used, any others? Until there's a contrary opinion, I'm going to go with this. A month is long enough to wait. TMLutas ( talk) 18:22, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I paraphrased some additional detail from the ref page already accepted and of longstanding. It got reverted and I put it back in. I don't understand what's the problem so perhaps MB can detail it and we can come to some sort of understanding on how to expand the section. TMLutas 20:39, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
We have assertions that climate change is global and that climate change is local, the compromise seems obvious, don't use adjectives in the title that are controverted by text in the section. Also saying editorially that the change in the ice pits is slight while the quote we've agreed on says that they're prodigious triggers the same problem. I'm leaving the tag down because I fixed the underlying problems. Discuss them here if you disagree instead of going into edit war mode. TMLutas ( talk) 03:02, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Section Low atmospheric pressure says:
Fundamental question: does it ever exceed 0 °C, or is this just an if-Saturn-flowed-in-an-immense-ocean reasoning? Said: Rursus ( ☻) 15:03, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
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help)Paper dump for expanding the appropriate sections. MER-C 05:38, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
The article is quite long, so I wonder if it would be OK to remove the methane section from this article; it seems to me that, even if proven to be present, it takes no significant part in the climate. It is already covered at length in the Atmosphere of Mars article, so we could just leave a link in the 'See also' section. What say you? BatteryIncluded ( talk) 18:09, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
How is the weather box (designed for Earth) compatible with use for Mars? A Martian year is much longer, so seasons wouldn't repeat at the same time each Earth year, which the box initially suggests. In so far as Mars has months at all, it has two sets, "Phobos-months" and "Deimos-months", both far shorter than Lunar months. 12 "months" in a year is a very Earth-centered approach. As the sunshine hours seem to be for a Mars year, each "month" on the box would be around 45-50 days long (Earth) which means they can't be called January, February etc! A different weather box design is needed for other worlds (Mercury and Venus don't have months at all, as they have no moons). Walshie79 ( talk) 21:03, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
Hypothesis: Signs of Acid Fog Found on Mars. Press Release - Source: Geological Society of America November 2, 2015. Cheers, BatteryIncluded ( talk) 19:35, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
I am pleasantly suprised to see a quick "skim" of a research paper suggesting that the heat loss is reduced on Mars due to its low density air. https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/22924/apparent-temperature-mars (Another pop-sci article seems to independently agree with that, suggesting that solar radiation is good enough for a thermometer to register +7C at the Earth's orbit, https://www.space.com/14719-spacekids-temperature-outer-space.html ). The "feels like" temperature (heat loss speed) appears as important as the "final state" kinetic energy of atoms of bodies on the martian surface. -- ilgiz ( talk) 03:12, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
Since the Martian year is ~22.5 months, it would be inappropriate to align Mars's seasons and climate data with Earth's calendar as this table does. This exact structure does not appear to be in the sources, and the linked Twitter feed even says that today (a sol no less) is a summer day at that location on Mars, while it is not summer anywhere on Earth right now. Even if the data is correct, can this table either be restructured (aligned to a Martian calendar or Martian seasons, perhaps) or removed completely to fix this error-prone transcription? ComplexRational ( talk) 16:21, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
The article text quotes: "This day-night discrepancy is unexpected and not understood". Not having any specialist knowledge on this subject, I nevertheless wonder whether, at or around the nighttime temperatures, there might be a mechanism at work allowing heat exchange at a constant temperature. Such a mechanism is at work on Earth where fluid water and melting ice (or solid ice and freezing water) are in contact with each other (under appropriate pressure and temperature conditions).
Since Mars' atmosphere is reported to consist mainly of carbon dioxide, and since the surface pressure is reported to be around 6 hPa (and around 11.5 hPa in an approximately 7.1 km deep impact basin at/near Hellas Planitia), and since the average nighttime / minimum temperatures in the Gale Crater (which at its deepest point is reported to be around 5.5 km deep) are in the range of -90 deg C to -75 deg C (according to a table in the current article), I wondered whether these circumstances might correspond to a range where (a) phase change(s) for carbon dioxide is/are possible.
Looking at a phase diagram for carbon dioxide at https://earthscience.stackexchange.com/questions/4896/are-there-pockets-of-liquid-carbon-dioxide-in-earths-oceans, I could not help but notice that there is "some" closeness of the vapour-liquid and liguid-solid transition lines (as well as a clathrate region, if I interpret the diagram correctly) to the average nighttime temperature range and the pressure range at certain places on Mars.
Surely, someone else has already had thoughts of such a possibility, maybe even discarded them on good grounds. If not, would these thoughts be helpful in explaining the day-night discrepancy as it is quoted in the article? Redav ( talk) 13:18, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
Can we say how fast a thicker atmosphere in the past is calculated to have been lost by "boil-off" (ballistic escape of faster molecules) or stripping by the solar wind ? Article doesn't seem to say now, although I thought it used to. Eg. Would the thinning of the atmosphere quickly follow the declining magnetic field/magnetosphere, or lag it by hundreds of millions of years ? - Rod57 ( talk) 15:11, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
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Yesterday King of Hearts posted the results of the AfD poll, he stated: "This article was nominated for deletion on 18 February 2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus."
Less than an hour later Sbandrews arbitrarily killed the article with the single word "redirect" as the only comment. The page is now reduced to a couple of paragraphs at the bottom of the Climate of Mars page where it will never be found or read. When the AfD was "no consensus" how do they have the right to unilaterally destroy hundreds of hours of work and go against the votes???
The documented history of Censorship (23 February 2007):
-- Rameses 05:08, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Before the Talk:Martian global warming page gets deleted, I have copied below the relevant discussion about censorship: -- Rameses 15:33, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
National Geographic are reporting on this issue now: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html Mixino1 00:14, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Oren0, he is writing about Martian warming. There appears to be evidence of warming occurring on other planets and this is certainly valid information to reference in this article as it points to a likely possible cause - the Sun. I have checked on the Global Warming article and it appears that William M. Connolley is colluding with others in a concerted effort to revert all changes which reflect any uncertainty regarding the fact of man made global warming. This kind of hijacking of Wikipedia will only discredit it as a source of unbiased, balanced information. -- Censorship Bias 02:53, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Here's proof of Wikifriends, with an axe to grind on climate change, taking it out of open discussion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:William_M._Connolley
I quote:
"SPM
Can we give Summary for policymakers a decent burial? Or even an indecent one? Is there a protocol to follow, or can I just move the (very small amount of) useful information in the article somewhere else? It's been tagged for merger several months now. Raymond Arritt 04:23, 3 January 2007 (UTC) Don't forget what links to it... [6] Gack. Is there no automagic way of taking care of such things? Raymond Arritt 22:28, 3 January 2007 (UTC) Well if you replaced it with a redirect to IPCC it would be transparent. I quite like the existence of a separate SPM page, myself William M. Connolley 22:35, 3 January 2007 (UTC)'"
What have you got against talking in the open? Mixino1 01:54, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Now they have gutted the article completely - almost everything has been deleted. This is obviously the prelude to deleting it altogether or "merging" it into Mars. This shows how far the Global warming pushers will go to hide any evidence that GW may be due to the obvious cause of the highest level of solar activity in 1,000 years (and probably in the last 8,000 years - according to the Max Planck Institute in Germany, See: The truth about global warming - it's the Sun that's to blame.). I expect to see this article and this discussion disappear soon as a result of blatant censorship. -- Rameses 18:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
At best, the consensus to move the Martian global warming page here was a weak one. I believe that the intent of those of us who voted for it was that Martian global warming would get fair play in this article, which it doesn't have at this point. Warming should at least be mentioned in the opening paragraph. Oren0 18:30, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
A merge of Martian global warming into Mars was proposed, then pre-empted by an AfD proposal. In the AfD, a plurality of responses (15 out of 31) favored merging Martian global warming into another article while most of the rest proposed deletion. Only four respondents recommended keeping Martian global warming as a separate article. Thus, am reopening the merge discussion following sentiments expressed in the AfD. Please give your comments here. Raymond Arritt 02:22, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
More blatant misuse of power over all global warming topics: What is the point of even having this discussion when William M. Connolley has already arbitrarily merged the articles without even pretending he cared what the rest of us think??? It is high time this Administrator was scrutinized - he should have his Administrator status revoked. -- Rameses 03:33, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Are we of the opinion that this article still needs cleanup? It seems reasonable enough to me. If so, please say which parts you believe need to be fixed. Oren0 07:04, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
"A lingering pre-scientific fascination with "the planet of war" also contributes to interest."? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.124.170.103 ( talk) 03:53, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Jakosky, B.M. & Haberle, R.M. "Year-to-year instability of the Mars Polar Cap" J.Geophys Res, 95, 1359-1365 (1990) If anyone with access to this article (I don't have) wants to paraphrase the reasons they give for the instability it would make a nice conclusion to this page, regards sbandrews 22:14, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Head, Science, 2003
-- Jespley 19:13, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm thinking of putting Climate of Mars forward for GAC - any comments, suggestions for improvements etc? sbandrews ( t) 20:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I just threw in some content from the Mars page into the section on polar caps. It needs cleaning up and expanding - we shouldn't have more on the general Mars page about this than on the climate-specific page. -- zandperl 00:25, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
FYI, this stuff is coming up at Political_positions_of_Fred_Thompson#Global_warming. He has been pushing this theory. Crust 14:15, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Since martian global warming was (weakly) considered part of climate of mars, but that decision was pretty strongly disputed, I propose that when Climate of Mars grows to the point where it's feasible to break it out, that section be broken back out to its own page. It's grown and matured and obviously it's its own controversial topic and really ought to be examined on its own. But on the other hand, I want to give fair notice that this is coming down the pike in talk so nobody can complain that it's some sort of politically motivated ambush. So, any thoughts on how to properly do it? TMLutas 16:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
I removed the following unsourced sentence:
Global warming on Mars cannot be caused by humanity and observable warming there does serve to cast doubt on current theories put out by anthropogenic global warming activists as there is a natural presumption against coincidence.
I first tried to improve it to:
Global warming on Mars cannot be caused by humanity and observable warming there is used to cast doubt on current theories by using the presumption that the correlation proves the Sun is warming up — despite all solar measurements suggesting otherwise.
However, I realized that was redundant. Ben Hocking ( talk| contribs) 19:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Dry ice submlimates, its doesn't evaporate William M. Connolley 20:11, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Taken from: http://www.mps.mpg.de/projects/sun-climate/resu_body.html
live links in the original.
Solar Variability of Possible Relevance for Planetary Climates (S.K. Solanki & N.A. Krivova 2006, Sp. Sci. Rev., vol. 125, 25-37) Modelling of irradiance variations through atmosphere models (N.A. Krivova & S.K. Solanki 2005, Mem. Soc. Astron. It., vol. 76, 834-841)
Solar irradiance variations: From current measurements to long-term estimates (S.K. Solanki & N.A. Krivova 2004, Sol. Phys., vol. 224, 197-208)
Solar total and spectral irradiance: Modelling and a possible impact on climate (N.A. Krivova & S.K. Solanki 2003, ESA SP-535, 275-284)
Reconstruction of solar irradiance variations in cycle 23: Is solar surface magnetism the cause? (N.A. Krivova, S.K. Solanki, M. Fligge & Y.C. Unruh 2003, A&A 399, L1-L4)
Harold Jeffreys Lecture: Solar variability and climate change: is there a link? (S.K. Solanki 2002, Astronomy & Geophysics, vol. 43, issue 5, 5.09-5.13)
Klimaveraenderung - Treibhauseffekt oder Sonnenaktivitaet? ( D. Schmitt & M. Schuessler 2002, Astronomie + Raumfahrt im Unterricht 39, 5, 31-35, in German)
Evolution of the Sun's large-scale magnetic field since the Maunder minimum (S.K. Solanki, M.Schuessler & M. Fligge 2000, Nature 408, 445-447) TMLutas 21:49, 6 September 2007 (UTC) (sig added later)
Somewhere along the way recently we seem to have lost this: ^ S. K. Solanki (2004). "Unusual activity of the Sun during recent decades compared to the previous 11,000 years". Nature 431: 1084-1087. DOI:10.1038/nature02995. Retrieved on 2007-02-26. Is there really any reason why this is not considered relevant as part of an examination of why Mars might be getting warmer? Keep the solar theorist fringer in but let's wipe out the peer reviewed stuff is not good behavior. Perhaps a mistake? TMLutas 23:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
How can people possibly be talking about global warming on mars in the absence of a time series for its temperature? Is there one? If so, why aren't we referring to it? Ab vapours on about "parrallel warmings" without telling us: what period; what the change is on Mars; indeed anything at all really William M. Connolley 20:40, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
End the above threads, please. This nonsense remains nonsense, and has already been purged from Wikipedia at least three times. See the discussions for deletion on 'solar system warming' and 'martian global warming'. I was involved in the debunking, which was thorough. For the last time: there is no censorship of Wikipedia. I'll still be branded part of a non-existent conspiracy, since I predict that the fanatics will not accept any denial. My lack of patience with such is why I've largely ceased editing. Michaelbusch 23:04, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
William Connolly seems to be intent on an edit war. I'm not up for that childishness so I just NPOV'd the section and would like to talk it out here. I think that it is a reasonable position to state that warming is being detected, lay out the facts as they exist today, and give the various theories as to extent and causation. Mr Connolly seems to disagree, repeatedly changing what's been the approach to this section for quite some time. So please justify your edits, I didn't remove them yet. TMLutas 21:25, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Well TML can *almost* spell my name and I don't usually insist on Dr, so we're not too far adrift. "I think that it is a reasonable position to state that warming is being detected" - is it really? In which case... by how much has Mars warmed over the last... whenever. Silly question really, because we all know that you don't know. I see no evidence at all that anyone has a global time series for Martian temperature, and without that there is nothing but local proxy evidence. I'm happy to be proved wrong, and would be very interested to see it if there is one. To clarify, try these questions: (1) have you seen a global or hemispheric time series for Mars? (2) do you have reason to believe that one exists? (3) do you have any evidence for change anywhere outside the south polar region? William M. Connolley 08:07, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
RA modded the text to There are presently no time series of Martian data long enough to establish "climate" in a statistically meaningful sense. - this is true, but carries the implication that there are at least some data points... are there? William M. Connolley 08:19, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
A prerequistite for discussing climate change should be some knowledge of the climate. This article oddly lacks a "temperature" section. We should add one, summarising what is known William M. Connolley 19:07, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I've made a start. Note that the martian atmosphere is very thin - 1/100 of earth - and a radiosonde at 10 mb in the sunlight on earth would be in need of radiation corrections. Mind you the sunlight is weaker there. I wonder if they designed this into the sensors? William M. Connolley 19:23, 8 September 2007 (UTC) This [2] is an interesting paper - frustratingly lacking the figs! I haven't found any useful data ain it yet, though... Unfortunately, the record of air temperature from the Viking IRTM instrument was evidently contaminated, making the extended, multispacecraft air temperature record the most tainted (relative to the dust and water ice records). suggests there may be problems William M. Connolley 19:35, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
The changes referred to are local, of course, but I don't see that we have proof that the causes are local. This is as I said in my last edit summary.
The fact that you reverted all my changes - including the correction of the degree symbol - can only be intended as an insult. It is likely that you are doing this because you think I am a global warming 'sceptic' (I am not) and that you believe such should be harassed as much as possible.
The paragraph I had removed was likely intended to bash 'sceptics' and as such can not be appropriate for this article, which is about Mars, not Earth. In addition it incorrectly uses the Nature source, as I explained above. The way, the truth, and the light 21:34, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Added by TML. No source for it, clearly a leading statement. Might be acceptable if qualified by "there is no evidence for a trend" William M. Connolley 09:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
TML added this to the sandox - at least I presume thats what he means. Interesting ref, good quotes ""Odyssey is giving us indications of recent global climate change in Mars," said Jeffrey Plaut, project scientist for the mission at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory.", how to explain it away :-?
Firstly, there are no time scales. Does "recent" mean years, decades, millenia? Second its just a web site, and the quote is from 2003, so anything useable there should have got into the literature by now. This looks like the source, but its just a meeting talk.
Icarus is a journal, but the text there is more cautious. The only timescale mentioned is 10 kyr
William M. Connolley 17:51, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
not every notable view on scientific topics is documented in science journals. Reliability is determined neutrally, using WP:RS and evidence of the community's view. The primary purpose of WP:RS is to clarify and guide communal views on the reliability of different sources, not to support unilateral demands for an unreasonably narrow personal definition of "reliable" as a means to exclude appropriate sources that document notable opposing views.
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Maybe I'm mistaken, but I think everyone involved in the disputes above needs to remember Wikipedia:No original research. Connelley is quite right to insist on reliable sourcing, but that is not enough. Michaelbusch 21:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Other than myself, nobody ever used Ben Hocking's sandbox so what's the point of contributing there in good faith trying to avoid an edit war? I'll do a review as I can to get all my changes in the main article. After that, I'd kill the subpage. TMLutas 18:40, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
From RA's recent edit explanation "Replaced problematic interpretation with a direct quote from one of the cited scientists". I thought the replaced sentence "The observed trend so far is a warming one though nobody is currently asserting an airtight case has been established for any particular theory." was a straightforward summary of the facts we have so far. I'd even go so far as "the observed trend, where there is a trend, is a warming one though nobody is currently asserting an airtight case has been established for any particular theory."
I would like some sort of summary of the evidence that tries to make sense of it all, not just a grab-bag of evidence. I'm just not interested in doing so to a cry of "original research, original research". I'm looking for a structure of here's evidence of something going on, this is the trend we've got based on incomplete data, and here is a grab bag of contending theories that try to explain it all. Ideally we'd eventually sort them as to weight but I'm not sure we can do that honestly other than put the direct solar warming stuff at the end (due to the TSI measurements that contradict the theory).
So I'm opening the floor to better ideas to the end of the week. If Monday rolls around and nobody has a better idea, I'll put something back in. TMLutas 19:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
the Astronomy on Mars article has an interesting NASA pic speculating what Mars looked like during an ice age. Any objection to eventually putting it up in the article? Here's the pic. TMLutas 21:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
The more I think about it, the more I think Abdusamatov's claims aren't relevant to the article. Given the lack of reputability he currently enjoys, I don't see them as notable and anything that shouldn't be removed under the ArbCom Pseudoscience case. There are more than enough crazy claims about global warming - we don't need to spread them. Michaelbusch 22:24, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
If you run Abdumsamtov through Google, you get ~15000 hits. Coupling that with Mars drops it down to <1000, none of which are news sources indexed by Google and many of which were a relic of my keyword choice. The only news outlet that covered him talking about Mars was a series in the Canada National Post, which seems to have been a general assemblage of all manner of dubious, and sometimes mutually contradicting, claims of the Sun causing global warming. The National Post is known for publishing such, apparently. One story only, which has been copied to a few hundred pages. Of these, very many are critical and many are Wikipedia mirrors. By comparison, there are several hundred thousand references to the climate of Mars. Michaelbusch 22:50, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the solar-variation stuff needs to be in here. But its a mistake to focus on A. I think we should have a section on assertions that martian warming shows that earth warming is natural, and why there is no real evidence for this. A is only a minor part; he is in because, weak as he is, its the only ref with a shred of credibility. We have filtered out the nonsense too well William M. Connolley 09:10, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Atmosphere of Mars seems intimately related to Climate of Mars, especially with regards to the low atmospheric pressure section. There doesn't seem to be any formal link other than a "see also" link at the bottom. I propose reorganizing things so that atmosphere features that impact climate be demoted underneath an atmosphere section and grouped together with an in section "see main article" link be made back to atmosphere of Mars. Any objections? TMLutas 18:10, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
better polar scarps pictures available here that show the length of the evidence available. Since the camera taking this recently died, it's likely not going to get better than this. It's credited as a NASA/JPL photo so there should be no copyright issues. TMLutas 13:57, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
I removed the ice age section again:
Its (a) non-notable and (b) very speculative (indeed [7] has Feldman "speculating" not "saying". It was said in 2003, after one year of Mars obs; you cannot deduce a trend from one year.
Also, the pacemakers stuff has no clear connection. Indeed, the pacemaker article says In contrast to Earth's ice ages, a Martian ice age waxes when the poles warm, and water vapor is transported toward lower latitudes. Martian ice ages wane when the poles cool and lock water into polar icecaps... so if an ice age has just ended, the poles are cooling, not warming William M. Connolley 16:02, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't particularly think that Abdusamatov has things right but for wikipedia's purposes, this is *irrelevant* and smarmy notes on edits implying I hold opinions I do not are ill advised. This encyclopedia, by policy, is aiming at verifiable (ie the position can be sourced as actually having been held), notable opinions and not at a grand search for truth. If WP were looking for truth, it would not open up edits to everybody the way it does.
Abdusamatov's position can be debunked, and I think it has been adequately debunked in the article. If you want to make the debunking larger, more detailed, knock yourself out. You may be surprised to find me editing to improve the debunking. I have before. I have defended others' edits recently and in the more distant past, trying to preserve and even expand points that do not necessarily agree with what I personally feel is going on regarding the recent odd data that's popping up. That's because I think that the positions were a good stub for a notable current of opinion and deserved to be in the article on that basis. Others have disagreed that all viewpoints deserve to have a respectable amount of time to demonstrate that they are notable and have engaged in what I view as slash and burn deletion. But there's worse than slash and burn out there.
I don't think cheap propaganda tricks such as making titles disagree with the content of the paragraph and the actual assertions by the scientist whose position is being described is acceptable at Wikipedia. Leave that to the NY Times. They're better at it and they already seem to have pawned off their soul decades ago (see Walter Duranty). TMLutas 19:32, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
I didn't put in my reason in the edit note for reverting MB's latest content reducing edit which was that he knocked out a peer reviewed study (actually multiple studies, I was being conservative) by vaguely asserting that it had been debunked but not providing any rationale why the question was settled in favor of his interpretation nor providing links documenting his assertion. Now it may very well be true that the Duke study and the related Columbia study the ref refers to have been shown to be in error but wiping things out like that deserves a higher standard than he demonstrated. I'm only sorry that I quick fingered the edit and didn't refer to the talk page when I reverted him. Hopefully he'll come by and see this before the issue spirals to a revert war. TMLutas 20:05, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I was in a hurry, and didn't explain: if I remember correctly, the Duke study relied on stratospheric temperature measurements from balloon probes, which were found to be systematically off due to a design flaw (reported in Science last year). As Connolley notes, this is better kept under solar variation. Michaelbusch 20:29, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
So far as I can tell, there are two complete systems of categorizing ages on Mars. Sorting out age descriptions is important for the paleoclimatology section. I can see describing inline and using both or picking one and sticking to it with an explanation why. What's the consensus on this? TMLutas 20:37, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Ok, that's one opinion for Noachian et al age system being used, any others? Until there's a contrary opinion, I'm going to go with this. A month is long enough to wait. TMLutas ( talk) 18:22, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I paraphrased some additional detail from the ref page already accepted and of longstanding. It got reverted and I put it back in. I don't understand what's the problem so perhaps MB can detail it and we can come to some sort of understanding on how to expand the section. TMLutas 20:39, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
We have assertions that climate change is global and that climate change is local, the compromise seems obvious, don't use adjectives in the title that are controverted by text in the section. Also saying editorially that the change in the ice pits is slight while the quote we've agreed on says that they're prodigious triggers the same problem. I'm leaving the tag down because I fixed the underlying problems. Discuss them here if you disagree instead of going into edit war mode. TMLutas ( talk) 03:02, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Section Low atmospheric pressure says:
Fundamental question: does it ever exceed 0 °C, or is this just an if-Saturn-flowed-in-an-immense-ocean reasoning? Said: Rursus ( ☻) 15:03, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
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help)Paper dump for expanding the appropriate sections. MER-C 05:38, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
The article is quite long, so I wonder if it would be OK to remove the methane section from this article; it seems to me that, even if proven to be present, it takes no significant part in the climate. It is already covered at length in the Atmosphere of Mars article, so we could just leave a link in the 'See also' section. What say you? BatteryIncluded ( talk) 18:09, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
How is the weather box (designed for Earth) compatible with use for Mars? A Martian year is much longer, so seasons wouldn't repeat at the same time each Earth year, which the box initially suggests. In so far as Mars has months at all, it has two sets, "Phobos-months" and "Deimos-months", both far shorter than Lunar months. 12 "months" in a year is a very Earth-centered approach. As the sunshine hours seem to be for a Mars year, each "month" on the box would be around 45-50 days long (Earth) which means they can't be called January, February etc! A different weather box design is needed for other worlds (Mercury and Venus don't have months at all, as they have no moons). Walshie79 ( talk) 21:03, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
Hypothesis: Signs of Acid Fog Found on Mars. Press Release - Source: Geological Society of America November 2, 2015. Cheers, BatteryIncluded ( talk) 19:35, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
I am pleasantly suprised to see a quick "skim" of a research paper suggesting that the heat loss is reduced on Mars due to its low density air. https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/22924/apparent-temperature-mars (Another pop-sci article seems to independently agree with that, suggesting that solar radiation is good enough for a thermometer to register +7C at the Earth's orbit, https://www.space.com/14719-spacekids-temperature-outer-space.html ). The "feels like" temperature (heat loss speed) appears as important as the "final state" kinetic energy of atoms of bodies on the martian surface. -- ilgiz ( talk) 03:12, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
Since the Martian year is ~22.5 months, it would be inappropriate to align Mars's seasons and climate data with Earth's calendar as this table does. This exact structure does not appear to be in the sources, and the linked Twitter feed even says that today (a sol no less) is a summer day at that location on Mars, while it is not summer anywhere on Earth right now. Even if the data is correct, can this table either be restructured (aligned to a Martian calendar or Martian seasons, perhaps) or removed completely to fix this error-prone transcription? ComplexRational ( talk) 16:21, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
The article text quotes: "This day-night discrepancy is unexpected and not understood". Not having any specialist knowledge on this subject, I nevertheless wonder whether, at or around the nighttime temperatures, there might be a mechanism at work allowing heat exchange at a constant temperature. Such a mechanism is at work on Earth where fluid water and melting ice (or solid ice and freezing water) are in contact with each other (under appropriate pressure and temperature conditions).
Since Mars' atmosphere is reported to consist mainly of carbon dioxide, and since the surface pressure is reported to be around 6 hPa (and around 11.5 hPa in an approximately 7.1 km deep impact basin at/near Hellas Planitia), and since the average nighttime / minimum temperatures in the Gale Crater (which at its deepest point is reported to be around 5.5 km deep) are in the range of -90 deg C to -75 deg C (according to a table in the current article), I wondered whether these circumstances might correspond to a range where (a) phase change(s) for carbon dioxide is/are possible.
Looking at a phase diagram for carbon dioxide at https://earthscience.stackexchange.com/questions/4896/are-there-pockets-of-liquid-carbon-dioxide-in-earths-oceans, I could not help but notice that there is "some" closeness of the vapour-liquid and liguid-solid transition lines (as well as a clathrate region, if I interpret the diagram correctly) to the average nighttime temperature range and the pressure range at certain places on Mars.
Surely, someone else has already had thoughts of such a possibility, maybe even discarded them on good grounds. If not, would these thoughts be helpful in explaining the day-night discrepancy as it is quoted in the article? Redav ( talk) 13:18, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
Can we say how fast a thicker atmosphere in the past is calculated to have been lost by "boil-off" (ballistic escape of faster molecules) or stripping by the solar wind ? Article doesn't seem to say now, although I thought it used to. Eg. Would the thinning of the atmosphere quickly follow the declining magnetic field/magnetosphere, or lag it by hundreds of millions of years ? - Rod57 ( talk) 15:11, 21 May 2022 (UTC)