This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I see that Manscher and Arthur Rubin want to edit-war the word pejorative into the lead of this article without discussion and without citation. diff This word is highly value-laden, and its use compared to the previous studiously neutral language, "...describes efforts to state..." is unjust. It is also unjustified with no citation of any reliable source that applies that term to this subject.
I also note that, just to confuse the discussion we're are going to have to have, they are trying to remove "and disinformation" from a later sentence in the lede. This is despite the fact that that word is used no fewer than four times in the cited source at the end of that sentence. -- Nigelj ( talk) 19:00, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
@Peterlewis: Please don't revert-war in the article - please rather join the discussion here.
Please note that, by a decision of the Wikipedia community, this article and others relating to climate change (broadly construed) has been placed under article probation. Editors making disruptive edits may be blocked temporarily from editing the encyclopedia, or subject to other administrative remedies, according to standards that may be higher than elsewhere on Wikipedia. Please see Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation for full information and to review the decision. -- ChrisO ( talk) 01:59, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
People keep disputing this, when I think the point is pretty clear. Here are a few sources.
I am sure the term has at some point been used in a non-pejorative sense; sometimes, as is well known, people even decide to embrace a pejorative used to describe them. Nevertheless, the phrase is a pejorative. It is often used as a pejorative. We have sources for this, so if people want to discuss other ways to write it let's do so with reference to what these and other reliable sources say. Mackan79 ( talk) 21:04, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
The definition of the term and more broadly, the first paragraph of this article, appears to be original research. Does anyone have a reliable source that can provide a neutral, accepted definition of the term? -- DGaw ( talk) 23:44, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
It seems to me from this discussion that the term "climate change denial" is a rhetorical device used mainly in opinion pieces whose meaning varies greatly with the writer. It does not have a single, broadly accepted, reliably sourced definition. I can see value in an article that traces the term's various meanings, but I have great concerns about then going on to describe various organizations and individuals as engaging in climate change denial. In the Climate Change Risk Communication: The Problem of Psychological Denial example cited above by Jaymax, the reusable shopping bag is called a form of climate change denial. Therefore the sections describing specific activities should be moved elsewhere, either to one of the other articles on climate change or a new article, perhaps Efforts to downplay the significance of climate change, a phrase that occurs in the current article and at least has the virtue of being clear.-- agr ( talk) 16:39, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
Last month, a Washington Post-ABC News poll found that 40 percent of Americans distrust what scientists say about the environment, a considerable increase from April 2007. Meanwhile, public belief in the science of global warming is in decline.
I commented the section out since it adds systemic bias and a comment in a court case it not notable for this article. A one line comment if anything may suffice. -- Alan Liefting ( talk) - 19:54, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
(undent) I know from glancing at AFD that everybody screams that ghits don't make a case. I'm not making a case (yet), but suggesting that looking into this is worthwhile: see 32,000 Internet ghits for climate change dissent. I looked in both Google Books and Google scholar and found further instances; dealing with them appropriately would take considerable time.... here's climate change dissenter oh and even a national newspaper of record, USA Today, leads off the ghits for climate change dissenters. More can be found. Can we talk about pagemoves now? Am I permitted to speak? • Ling.Nut 07:04, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
I would not be against merging the content to global warming controversy, and renaming it to "global warming consent" or something similar wouldn't change my opinion on that. Moreover the article is specifically about denialism in global warming, not dissent, which is well covered in the controversy article and others. -- TS 10:22, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
I haven't looked into it much, but I did see Ling.Nut say he thought the e-mail controversy should be mentioned here. If so, he or others might look for sources discussing the two topics together. I'm posting this to highlight a piece by George Monbiot I found here, also because it has perhaps a helpful comment on definitions:
Just one example, but perhaps of use along with others. Mackan79 ( talk) 02:17, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
I just removed an entire section that seems to have nothing to do with this subject. Please watch that topic drift tendency. -- TS 08:33, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
(considerably unindented here)
Maybe somebody who understands your explanation and agrees with it will explain why your text has to be restored. I do not see anything adequate--or even anything that I understand--above. -- TS 09:39, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Should Climate Change Denial be considered a religious POV (as opposed to a scientific). By definition, aren't proponents of man-made climate change theory, who attack opponents as climate change deniers, are themselves not using scientific argument, but are rather making their beliefs an article of faith? -- AnAbsolutelyOriginalUsername42 ( talk) 19:37, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Your question was confusing. If you say that CH denial/support is a matter of faith, then it's like saying that the entire Global Warming article should be tagged as POV/faith subject as well, not just the denial article. You realize of course that this is not something feasible. Although I personally doubt man-made global warming, the subject has nothing to do with faith. It's about facts, data, and interpreting/analyzing/understanding the data (so long as the data is not false or misleading). There are scientists who oppose the mainstream opinion, and there are scientists who go along with the mainstream opinion in order to keep their job/position. Rather than a religious issue, it's more a political/financial issue. John Hyams ( talk) 22:34, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Oh, to be sure - but to say that someone 'denies' global warming by definition is to say that there is an absolute consensus on the matter. In fact, it attacks any discussion of the matter. It is the antithesis of science (which is founded on constantly testing hypotheses, etc). This sort of knee-jerk reaction is similar to religious justification which specifically does not back up arguments with evidence (apart from liturgical), but instead attacks the apparent immorality of opponents for having questioned this article of faith. Now, climatology is a branch of science, but 'climate change denial' is something entirely different.
On an apparently different note, I am opposed to the illegality surrounding holocaust denial. History, and indeed all humanistic endeavours which aim to increase knowledge, and expose falsehood, are meant to engage with opposing views. Now some holocaust deniers suggest that the holocaust didn't happen at all. A fair enough viewpoint, but one which is very easily shown to be nonsense (due to whole reams of written, physical and video evidence, not to mention eyewitness accounts). Some holocaust deniers question the figures quoted in relation to the holocaust (with varying degrees of rationality and evidence). However, the imprisonment of people who fall into these categories is not done with the aim of furthering human knowledge, or to solidify historical truth, but rather to drive home a political point about ethnic tolerance. Whilst central European governments might rationalise this approach by saying that it disrupts anarchic elements which rally around the specter of fascism, the government of the Republic of China could equally justify the strict censorship surrounding Tiananmen Square protests, and falsification of information divulged to the public regarding it, as a means of safeguarding the nation against potential unrest. Either way it is a method of saying that certain viewpoints are politically (and legally) acceptable, somewhat divorced from the truth of the matter.
It is illegal in some countries to deny the 'existence' of God. Will it become illegal to deny the 'existence' of climate change? Ok, maybe 'climate change denial' isn't a religious POV, but it most certainly isn't scientific. -- AnAbsolutelyOriginalUsername42 ( talk) 21:10, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_care#Opposition_to_Evangelical_Environmentalism 99.184.231.107 ( talk) 06:32, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Reading through this section, it's remarkable to find that there is not actually anything on "Denial vs. Skepticism." Is there material that distinguishes between these two phrases?
Or maybe it's just intended to be an overview, as in, "Is it denial, or is it just healthy skepticism?" If so perhaps we should just call it an overview. In either case there is still woefully little material here discussing what makes something "denial," in comparison to the large volume of examples. If the article has merit, it seems this is one of the major discrepancies that needs to be improved. Mackan79 ( talk) 09:03, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Why haven’t we rallied our collective power to solve global warning? by Daniel Gilbert (psychologist) 99.24.248.144 ( talk) 16:29, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
I certainly think so. There are some other sources on psychology of climate denial at
http://greenfyre.wordpress.com/denier-vs-skeptic/#psychology . If someone who knows the policy on reliable sources better than I went through that, we could maybe put to bed the discussions about "does denial need its own section" and "is denial the right term"
155.56.68.216 (
talk)
07:06, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
"Why haven’t we rallied our collective power to solve global warning?" by Daniel Gilbert (psychologist) ... a useful addition to "human behavior", i.e. the depth of "denial", or more may be more accurately " Blind spot" ? 209.255.78.138 ( talk) 14:31, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
Suggest adding de-denial from Scientific American link "... . Their so-called "consensus" on global warming is scientifically irrelevant because science isn't settled by popularity." ==
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=seven-answers-to-climate-contrarian-nonsense&page=4 [6] ... "Claim 5: Climatologists conspire to hide the truth about global warming by locking away their data. Their so-called "consensus" on global warming is scientifically irrelevant because science isn't settled by popularity. > It is virtually impossible to disprove accusations of giant global conspiracies to those already convinced of them (can anyone prove that the Freemasons and the Roswell aliens aren't involved, too?). Let it therefore be noted that the magnitude of this hypothetical conspiracy would need to encompass many thousands of uncontroversial publications and respected scientists from around the world, stretching back through Arrhenius and Tyndall for almost 150 years [7]... 209.255.78.138 ( talk) 14:40, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
Climate change “artists“.
The same mindset which causes individuals to create and propagate self-replicating, harmful software viruses over the internet inciting the worries of huge population groups even though the individuals may never personally experience this actual “infection” is the identical mindset adopted by “climate change” activists. This “trollish” behaviour is characterised by the deliberate dissemination of un-provable “conclusions” which are purposefully calculated to evoke negative responses to “carefully designed incorrect statements” in order to stir up “fear of change” responses. Any exploration of these “conclusions” done by the authorities is necessarily done “off budget” and the goal is continually being shifted by these activists precluding thereby any definitive answer because there really is no definitive question. Only nebulous statements such as ‘the Ross ice-shelf collapsed and “climate change” is the mechanism responsible’. Definitely not good enough. Common sense dictates that if the ice-shelf never “broke” over the past millions of years our planet would, by this time, be encased in a sheet of ice several meters thick… At least the same common sense used by our climate bete noire… The question to these “climate change” activists and radicals, therefore, is a simple one. Show us all your previous research budgets and prove all the previous expenditure. Let’s see those payrolls. Let’s see those income statements. Let’s see those financial transactions! Let’s see that assets register with all the tools and apparatus required for your investigations and studies. We don’t want to know about your movies and pamphlets and books. We don’t want to know about your harrowing travels and tribulations. Show us your raw data and show us all your laboratory work. Show us your research premises. Show us your research staff - tell us who they are and let us examine/verify their science and mathematics credentials. Show us all your papers, published and peer-reviewed in the well-tried and tested publications. Let’s see your successful climate science seminars sans your chanting, screaming, placard-bearing, destructive, under-educated rentacrowds! Prove that your “assumptions” are not thumb-sucked and not a result of “magic mushrooms” and mescal/peyote cocktails and “trollish” ambitions. Let’s see your hard science without the massaged and polished statistics. Show us! No one can possibly examine and process such an enormous amount of data without matching massive administrative expenditure and the complimentary equipments. So prove it! We have sufficient genuine worldwide economic problems, pollution complications and natural disasters without needing to pander to your collective egotistical mischief eating away at our scarce resources! So prove it - publicly! Otherwise you must go away swearing loudly “I’m not gonna play with youse anymore if youse don’ts believes me!” And, truly, good riddance to you! Thanks for this opportunity and if I have somehow offended - kindly advise. You'all have my email address. Semperlibre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Semperlibre ( talk • contribs) 10:41, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
I found this interview interesting, in which Richard Lindzen says that he is not a skeptic but a denier, on the grounds that he considers the scientific evidence for his position clear. They mention the fact that it is used as a pejorative, and the whole thing seems to be rather tongue-in-cheek, but perhaps it's of some use. Mackan79 ( talk) 22:10, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
I think there are significant problems with a number of the sources in this article. Op-eds are reliable sources only for the author's opinions, and I'm unclear as to why these opinions are considered appropriate for inclusion in an encyclopedic article. Just to list a few, sources 1-4, 7, 15, 17-20 are either op-eds or blog posts, and therefore shouldn't be considered WP:RS, even under the broadest definition. I suggest removing these and similar sources, and any statements in the article upon which they are based. J. Langton ( talk) 16:56, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
(Unindent) Surely one can't contend that wikipedia policy allows for the inclusion of anything that anyone has ever written about a notable topic is fair game for inclusion in an article. In particular, I don't think a random collection of various opinion journalists opinions is particularly worthy of being included in an encyclopedia, regardless of how notable the subject of their opinions may be. Maybe the letter of WP:N or WP:RS doesn't specifically exclude these sources, but I think the spirit does. And in any case, the determining factor should be the quality of the article, and in this case, I think the article suffers because it's basically "opinion journalists have opinions!" which is not something I find particularly interesting. J. Langton ( talk) 21:55, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
I propose to change
to
Thoughts? ‒ Jaymax✍ 22:11, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
Since the page is protected, would an administrator please add the following quote to the article?: The December 2006 book, Hell and High Water, "discusses the urgency to act and the sad fact that America is refusing to do so.... [The author] gives a name to those such as ExxonMobil who deny that global warming is occurring and are working to persuade others of this money-making myth: they are the Denyers and Delayers. They are better rhetoriticians than scientists are.... [The book] gives us 10 years to change the way we live before it's too late to use existing technology to save the world. '...humanity already possesses the fundamental scientific, technical, and industrial know-how to solve the carbon and climate problem for the next half-century. The tragedy, then, as historians of the future will most certainly recount, is that we ruined their world not because we lacked the knowledge or the technology to save it but simply because we chose not to make the effort'" (Hell and High Water, p. 25). [10]
Please add the link ExxonSecrets.org ( Greenpeace USA). Thanks! -- Gsälzbär ( talk) 14:44, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Intresting video about exxonmobile's impact on climate change. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8066462153626602821# —Preceding unsigned comment added by DuKu ( talk • contribs) 14:19, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I see that Manscher and Arthur Rubin want to edit-war the word pejorative into the lead of this article without discussion and without citation. diff This word is highly value-laden, and its use compared to the previous studiously neutral language, "...describes efforts to state..." is unjust. It is also unjustified with no citation of any reliable source that applies that term to this subject.
I also note that, just to confuse the discussion we're are going to have to have, they are trying to remove "and disinformation" from a later sentence in the lede. This is despite the fact that that word is used no fewer than four times in the cited source at the end of that sentence. -- Nigelj ( talk) 19:00, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
@Peterlewis: Please don't revert-war in the article - please rather join the discussion here.
Please note that, by a decision of the Wikipedia community, this article and others relating to climate change (broadly construed) has been placed under article probation. Editors making disruptive edits may be blocked temporarily from editing the encyclopedia, or subject to other administrative remedies, according to standards that may be higher than elsewhere on Wikipedia. Please see Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation for full information and to review the decision. -- ChrisO ( talk) 01:59, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
People keep disputing this, when I think the point is pretty clear. Here are a few sources.
I am sure the term has at some point been used in a non-pejorative sense; sometimes, as is well known, people even decide to embrace a pejorative used to describe them. Nevertheless, the phrase is a pejorative. It is often used as a pejorative. We have sources for this, so if people want to discuss other ways to write it let's do so with reference to what these and other reliable sources say. Mackan79 ( talk) 21:04, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
The definition of the term and more broadly, the first paragraph of this article, appears to be original research. Does anyone have a reliable source that can provide a neutral, accepted definition of the term? -- DGaw ( talk) 23:44, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
It seems to me from this discussion that the term "climate change denial" is a rhetorical device used mainly in opinion pieces whose meaning varies greatly with the writer. It does not have a single, broadly accepted, reliably sourced definition. I can see value in an article that traces the term's various meanings, but I have great concerns about then going on to describe various organizations and individuals as engaging in climate change denial. In the Climate Change Risk Communication: The Problem of Psychological Denial example cited above by Jaymax, the reusable shopping bag is called a form of climate change denial. Therefore the sections describing specific activities should be moved elsewhere, either to one of the other articles on climate change or a new article, perhaps Efforts to downplay the significance of climate change, a phrase that occurs in the current article and at least has the virtue of being clear.-- agr ( talk) 16:39, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
Last month, a Washington Post-ABC News poll found that 40 percent of Americans distrust what scientists say about the environment, a considerable increase from April 2007. Meanwhile, public belief in the science of global warming is in decline.
I commented the section out since it adds systemic bias and a comment in a court case it not notable for this article. A one line comment if anything may suffice. -- Alan Liefting ( talk) - 19:54, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
(undent) I know from glancing at AFD that everybody screams that ghits don't make a case. I'm not making a case (yet), but suggesting that looking into this is worthwhile: see 32,000 Internet ghits for climate change dissent. I looked in both Google Books and Google scholar and found further instances; dealing with them appropriately would take considerable time.... here's climate change dissenter oh and even a national newspaper of record, USA Today, leads off the ghits for climate change dissenters. More can be found. Can we talk about pagemoves now? Am I permitted to speak? • Ling.Nut 07:04, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
I would not be against merging the content to global warming controversy, and renaming it to "global warming consent" or something similar wouldn't change my opinion on that. Moreover the article is specifically about denialism in global warming, not dissent, which is well covered in the controversy article and others. -- TS 10:22, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
I haven't looked into it much, but I did see Ling.Nut say he thought the e-mail controversy should be mentioned here. If so, he or others might look for sources discussing the two topics together. I'm posting this to highlight a piece by George Monbiot I found here, also because it has perhaps a helpful comment on definitions:
Just one example, but perhaps of use along with others. Mackan79 ( talk) 02:17, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
I just removed an entire section that seems to have nothing to do with this subject. Please watch that topic drift tendency. -- TS 08:33, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
(considerably unindented here)
Maybe somebody who understands your explanation and agrees with it will explain why your text has to be restored. I do not see anything adequate--or even anything that I understand--above. -- TS 09:39, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Should Climate Change Denial be considered a religious POV (as opposed to a scientific). By definition, aren't proponents of man-made climate change theory, who attack opponents as climate change deniers, are themselves not using scientific argument, but are rather making their beliefs an article of faith? -- AnAbsolutelyOriginalUsername42 ( talk) 19:37, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Your question was confusing. If you say that CH denial/support is a matter of faith, then it's like saying that the entire Global Warming article should be tagged as POV/faith subject as well, not just the denial article. You realize of course that this is not something feasible. Although I personally doubt man-made global warming, the subject has nothing to do with faith. It's about facts, data, and interpreting/analyzing/understanding the data (so long as the data is not false or misleading). There are scientists who oppose the mainstream opinion, and there are scientists who go along with the mainstream opinion in order to keep their job/position. Rather than a religious issue, it's more a political/financial issue. John Hyams ( talk) 22:34, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Oh, to be sure - but to say that someone 'denies' global warming by definition is to say that there is an absolute consensus on the matter. In fact, it attacks any discussion of the matter. It is the antithesis of science (which is founded on constantly testing hypotheses, etc). This sort of knee-jerk reaction is similar to religious justification which specifically does not back up arguments with evidence (apart from liturgical), but instead attacks the apparent immorality of opponents for having questioned this article of faith. Now, climatology is a branch of science, but 'climate change denial' is something entirely different.
On an apparently different note, I am opposed to the illegality surrounding holocaust denial. History, and indeed all humanistic endeavours which aim to increase knowledge, and expose falsehood, are meant to engage with opposing views. Now some holocaust deniers suggest that the holocaust didn't happen at all. A fair enough viewpoint, but one which is very easily shown to be nonsense (due to whole reams of written, physical and video evidence, not to mention eyewitness accounts). Some holocaust deniers question the figures quoted in relation to the holocaust (with varying degrees of rationality and evidence). However, the imprisonment of people who fall into these categories is not done with the aim of furthering human knowledge, or to solidify historical truth, but rather to drive home a political point about ethnic tolerance. Whilst central European governments might rationalise this approach by saying that it disrupts anarchic elements which rally around the specter of fascism, the government of the Republic of China could equally justify the strict censorship surrounding Tiananmen Square protests, and falsification of information divulged to the public regarding it, as a means of safeguarding the nation against potential unrest. Either way it is a method of saying that certain viewpoints are politically (and legally) acceptable, somewhat divorced from the truth of the matter.
It is illegal in some countries to deny the 'existence' of God. Will it become illegal to deny the 'existence' of climate change? Ok, maybe 'climate change denial' isn't a religious POV, but it most certainly isn't scientific. -- AnAbsolutelyOriginalUsername42 ( talk) 21:10, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_care#Opposition_to_Evangelical_Environmentalism 99.184.231.107 ( talk) 06:32, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Reading through this section, it's remarkable to find that there is not actually anything on "Denial vs. Skepticism." Is there material that distinguishes between these two phrases?
Or maybe it's just intended to be an overview, as in, "Is it denial, or is it just healthy skepticism?" If so perhaps we should just call it an overview. In either case there is still woefully little material here discussing what makes something "denial," in comparison to the large volume of examples. If the article has merit, it seems this is one of the major discrepancies that needs to be improved. Mackan79 ( talk) 09:03, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Why haven’t we rallied our collective power to solve global warning? by Daniel Gilbert (psychologist) 99.24.248.144 ( talk) 16:29, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
I certainly think so. There are some other sources on psychology of climate denial at
http://greenfyre.wordpress.com/denier-vs-skeptic/#psychology . If someone who knows the policy on reliable sources better than I went through that, we could maybe put to bed the discussions about "does denial need its own section" and "is denial the right term"
155.56.68.216 (
talk)
07:06, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
"Why haven’t we rallied our collective power to solve global warning?" by Daniel Gilbert (psychologist) ... a useful addition to "human behavior", i.e. the depth of "denial", or more may be more accurately " Blind spot" ? 209.255.78.138 ( talk) 14:31, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
Suggest adding de-denial from Scientific American link "... . Their so-called "consensus" on global warming is scientifically irrelevant because science isn't settled by popularity." ==
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=seven-answers-to-climate-contrarian-nonsense&page=4 [6] ... "Claim 5: Climatologists conspire to hide the truth about global warming by locking away their data. Their so-called "consensus" on global warming is scientifically irrelevant because science isn't settled by popularity. > It is virtually impossible to disprove accusations of giant global conspiracies to those already convinced of them (can anyone prove that the Freemasons and the Roswell aliens aren't involved, too?). Let it therefore be noted that the magnitude of this hypothetical conspiracy would need to encompass many thousands of uncontroversial publications and respected scientists from around the world, stretching back through Arrhenius and Tyndall for almost 150 years [7]... 209.255.78.138 ( talk) 14:40, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
Climate change “artists“.
The same mindset which causes individuals to create and propagate self-replicating, harmful software viruses over the internet inciting the worries of huge population groups even though the individuals may never personally experience this actual “infection” is the identical mindset adopted by “climate change” activists. This “trollish” behaviour is characterised by the deliberate dissemination of un-provable “conclusions” which are purposefully calculated to evoke negative responses to “carefully designed incorrect statements” in order to stir up “fear of change” responses. Any exploration of these “conclusions” done by the authorities is necessarily done “off budget” and the goal is continually being shifted by these activists precluding thereby any definitive answer because there really is no definitive question. Only nebulous statements such as ‘the Ross ice-shelf collapsed and “climate change” is the mechanism responsible’. Definitely not good enough. Common sense dictates that if the ice-shelf never “broke” over the past millions of years our planet would, by this time, be encased in a sheet of ice several meters thick… At least the same common sense used by our climate bete noire… The question to these “climate change” activists and radicals, therefore, is a simple one. Show us all your previous research budgets and prove all the previous expenditure. Let’s see those payrolls. Let’s see those income statements. Let’s see those financial transactions! Let’s see that assets register with all the tools and apparatus required for your investigations and studies. We don’t want to know about your movies and pamphlets and books. We don’t want to know about your harrowing travels and tribulations. Show us your raw data and show us all your laboratory work. Show us your research premises. Show us your research staff - tell us who they are and let us examine/verify their science and mathematics credentials. Show us all your papers, published and peer-reviewed in the well-tried and tested publications. Let’s see your successful climate science seminars sans your chanting, screaming, placard-bearing, destructive, under-educated rentacrowds! Prove that your “assumptions” are not thumb-sucked and not a result of “magic mushrooms” and mescal/peyote cocktails and “trollish” ambitions. Let’s see your hard science without the massaged and polished statistics. Show us! No one can possibly examine and process such an enormous amount of data without matching massive administrative expenditure and the complimentary equipments. So prove it! We have sufficient genuine worldwide economic problems, pollution complications and natural disasters without needing to pander to your collective egotistical mischief eating away at our scarce resources! So prove it - publicly! Otherwise you must go away swearing loudly “I’m not gonna play with youse anymore if youse don’ts believes me!” And, truly, good riddance to you! Thanks for this opportunity and if I have somehow offended - kindly advise. You'all have my email address. Semperlibre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Semperlibre ( talk • contribs) 10:41, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
I found this interview interesting, in which Richard Lindzen says that he is not a skeptic but a denier, on the grounds that he considers the scientific evidence for his position clear. They mention the fact that it is used as a pejorative, and the whole thing seems to be rather tongue-in-cheek, but perhaps it's of some use. Mackan79 ( talk) 22:10, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
I think there are significant problems with a number of the sources in this article. Op-eds are reliable sources only for the author's opinions, and I'm unclear as to why these opinions are considered appropriate for inclusion in an encyclopedic article. Just to list a few, sources 1-4, 7, 15, 17-20 are either op-eds or blog posts, and therefore shouldn't be considered WP:RS, even under the broadest definition. I suggest removing these and similar sources, and any statements in the article upon which they are based. J. Langton ( talk) 16:56, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
(Unindent) Surely one can't contend that wikipedia policy allows for the inclusion of anything that anyone has ever written about a notable topic is fair game for inclusion in an article. In particular, I don't think a random collection of various opinion journalists opinions is particularly worthy of being included in an encyclopedia, regardless of how notable the subject of their opinions may be. Maybe the letter of WP:N or WP:RS doesn't specifically exclude these sources, but I think the spirit does. And in any case, the determining factor should be the quality of the article, and in this case, I think the article suffers because it's basically "opinion journalists have opinions!" which is not something I find particularly interesting. J. Langton ( talk) 21:55, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
I propose to change
to
Thoughts? ‒ Jaymax✍ 22:11, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
Since the page is protected, would an administrator please add the following quote to the article?: The December 2006 book, Hell and High Water, "discusses the urgency to act and the sad fact that America is refusing to do so.... [The author] gives a name to those such as ExxonMobil who deny that global warming is occurring and are working to persuade others of this money-making myth: they are the Denyers and Delayers. They are better rhetoriticians than scientists are.... [The book] gives us 10 years to change the way we live before it's too late to use existing technology to save the world. '...humanity already possesses the fundamental scientific, technical, and industrial know-how to solve the carbon and climate problem for the next half-century. The tragedy, then, as historians of the future will most certainly recount, is that we ruined their world not because we lacked the knowledge or the technology to save it but simply because we chose not to make the effort'" (Hell and High Water, p. 25). [10]
Please add the link ExxonSecrets.org ( Greenpeace USA). Thanks! -- Gsälzbär ( talk) 14:44, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Intresting video about exxonmobile's impact on climate change. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8066462153626602821# —Preceding unsigned comment added by DuKu ( talk • contribs) 14:19, 26 January 2010 (UTC)