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The article hints that there might be some minor differences with marriage. E.g. rights are not "identical" with marriage - they "mirror" those of marriage, while partnership dissolution is only "similar" to divorce. A section outlining any differences would be useful. If there are no differences, then the language in the article should make that clearer. The difference (or not) between marriage and civil partnership is a hot topic, so this distinction is worthy of discussion. Fig ( talk) 10:13, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
In this entry, there is the statement that the Civil Partnership Act 2004 gives same-sex couples rights and responsibilities identical to civil marriage. This is not true as there are a number of differences between the two unions and their consequences.
The processes of civil marriage and civil partnership are different. At both, a Licensed Registrar officiates, but whereas there is set wording at a marriage that has to be articulated, at a civil partnership there is set wording, but there is no requirement for it to be said, it merely has to be read by both parties. Indeed, although a civil wedding differs from a religious wedding in that one is a ceremony and the other a service, a civil partnership differs from a civil wedding on the basis that the latter requires no ceremony to take place at all. A civil partnership is merely an agreement that has to be signed by the parties and a Licensed Registrar and this can be done in silence.
Couples who marry become spouses whereas couples who register their civil partnership become civil partners. The rights of spouses regarding survivor pensions in certain final salary pension schemes do not extend to civil partners. Thus, it can arise that the surviving civil partner of a person who has contributed to such a scheme has no entitlement to a survivor’s pension from the scheme, but a surviving spouse is entitled to a widow’s or widower’s pension.
Although access to life insurance is equalised between opposite-sex and same-sex couples, this is not true of some other types of insurance. For example, some underwriters of car insurance policies offer lower premiums to married couples but do not offer lower rates to civil partners. Indeed, some refuse to allow civil partners to specify their marital status on insurance application forms and in doing so deny civil partners the opportunity to use their services at all. [I’d like a lawyer to tell me if this contravenes the Equality Act 2006 that outlaws discrimination against people on the basis of sexual orientation in the provision of goods and services].
TimChapman ( talk) 08:55, 12 November 2008 (UTC)Tim Chapman
I mentioned the process of registering a civil partnership at the Register Office because my understanding and experience is that civil partners have the right to insist that no ceremony takes place whereas same-sex couples getting married are obliged to have some form of ceremony. This, then, is one difference between the rights and responsibilities of civil partners and married people, albeit a small one.
Contrary to your assertion, I did not claim that being called a civil partner or a spouse was a right under the CPA or the Marriage Act. Without reference to legislation, I stated the fact that couples who marry become spouses and couples who register their civil partnership become civil partners. I made this statement in order to introduce the terminology so that I could use it to demonstrate how the rights of civil partners are different to those of spouses in relation to certain final salary pension schemes.
Given that you are part of a gay legal firm, assuming you are qualified, you’ll already be aware that legislation obliges certain company pension schemes to equalise benefits for spouses and civil partners, but only from 5th December 2005. This means that, for example, a single person who is a member of such a scheme could have made contributions into a pension fund for, say, 25 years then, in June 2006, become a civil partner. Any subsequent surviving civil partner pension from the fund will be based only on the member’s contributions from 5th December 2005 – ignoring the previous 25 years’ worth of contributions. However, had the member become a spouse in June 2006 through marriage, then any surviving spouse’s pension would be based on the entire contributions record, resulting in a substantially greater widow’s or widower’s pension over that of a surviving civil partner’s. If that’s not a difference between the rights of civil partners and those of married people, then I don’t know what is.
The above example reflects my own experience. I worked for a large plc for many years and on becoming a civil partner was advised that the 5th December 2005 cut-off applied. However, by using the company’s own claim to be an equal opportunities employer, I mounted a challenge and eventually the trustees of my pension scheme agreed to treat civil partners the same as spouses. But this was nevertheless a matter for the trustees’ discretion rather than the right that spouses have under the scheme. As the pension scheme is acting within the law, I shall not name it. Nevertheless, I know that there is at least one other final salary pension scheme which goes no further than the legislation requires because I read a letter in Gay Times a while back where a civil partner was complaining about this very thing – his scheme confirmed that they will ignore his contributions prior to 5th December 2005 in calculating the pension his civil partner will receive in the event of his death. I wrote to GT to try to contact this person and although my letter was published, he never replied, so I do not know the name of his pension scheme. But shame on the legislators who have allowed this to happen.
With regard to car insurers, a recent email to me from moneysupermarket.com advised “To confirm whether the lower premiums applied to Married couples also applies to a Civil Partnership you will have to contact the Car Insurer provided”. So here we have a player in the industry confirming that married people receive favourable treatment. My experience is that my premiums were higher when I was single than they would have been had I been married (even though my partner and I have been together since the late 1970s). Of course, this would also have applied to an unmarried same-sex couple, but they’ve always had the opportunity to gain marital rights by, er, getting married! There was nothing I could do to get them because I could not, and still cannot, marry my partner. I assumed that when I became a civil partner, I would have access to the same lower “married” premiums without difficulty. Not so, many insurance companies, such as Churchill and Saga to name two, do not even list civil partnership as an option.
Other service providers are also guilty of this. Abbey plc requires marital status information on its savings account online application forms but gives no option for civil partners. Ditto Citi Financial Europe plc and Egg plc in relation to their online applications for credit cards.
I am interested to read that you would relish the opportunity to tackle firms who do not comply with legislation in this area. If, as a gay man, my only option to gain legal recognition of my relationship with my male partner was to register a civil partnership and I then find my access to services barred as a consequence of my marital status, is that not discrimination against me on the basis of my sexual orientation? If so, isn’t that in breach of the Equality Act 2006? As these questions are outside the scope of this article, will you be good enough to contact me at tim.chapman@inbox.com as I’d be very interested in a legal professional’s take on this?
TimChapman ( talk) 16:42, 16 November 2008 (UTC)TimChapman
Many thanks for taking the trouble to reply again. The sentence that didn’t make sense was entirely my error, I meant to say “opposite-sex couples getting married”. I do apologise.
You say that, notwithstanding the 12/05 date, the right to the benefit itself matches that obtained by entering into a civil marriage. It may be that both civil partners and spouses gain rights to survivors’ pensions for their partners should they predecease them, but is it really the same right when one partner ends up getting far more money than the other? They both gain a right to the pension accrued from 12/05 but only the spouse gains the right to, as you put it, the full benefit of umpteen years of contributions.
You’re right that there’s a lot of personal experience in my posts and I seem to have misunderstood the nature of this forum. I guess that my experience to date of civil partnership has re-enforced my belief from the outset that we should not have been fobbed off with civil partnership but should simply have been allowed to get married like everyone else – then equality would have been delivered at a stroke; there would be no differences in relation to procedures, administration or rights and responsibilities and I would not be wasting my time being annoyed by them. Even this WP article would not need to exist - don’t forget the thing that started this off for me was the statement on WP that civil partners have identical rights and responsibilities to people in a civil marriage. As I have said, that statement is not true - my civil partner’s pension will be at someone’s discretion whereas if we were married it would be his right. They are not identical and that is not equality.
I don’t find it acceptable for civil partners to have to state that they are married in order to access services even if it is completely legal (and can you cite the legislation that confirms this?). With online forms, it’s not possible to cross out “married” and insert “civil partner” because one is obliged to select from available options in a pick-list, yet the application cannot proceed otherwise. I’m sure nobody would say to married people, “oh just tick something you’re not and carry on regardless”. If a form that asked about ethnicity and, in relation to skin colour, omitted black you would not suggest that a black person should just tick white, would you? If I was denied the right to use the marriage word at the Registry Office, I’m not willing to use it subsequently. I’ll be happy to call it marriage when they issue me with a marriage certificate. Meanwhile, I suggest that these organisations are, consequently, barring my access to their services on the basis of something that arises out of my sexual orientation. Not only do they have to provide their services on an equal basis, they also have to provide access to them on an equal basis. So, if group one sails straight through the process without difficulty but group two encounters obstacles, whether insurmountable or not, then they’re not offering equal access. There’s still stuff that needs fixing and if we all just pretend that what we’ve got now is okay, then it’ll stay broken.
I do agree, however, that we’re descending into chat so I guess I should stop here. It’s a shame we cannot chat offline but I do understand. Thank you for your input.
Tim Chapman —Preceding unsigned comment added by TimChapman ( talk • contribs) 16:41, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
WP:JARGON is not absolute (it's an essay, not a policy), but it does suggest using the common sense, not the technical legal sense of words, particularly when those usages are unqualified. As such I've changed the lede to say "almost" entirely. This does not reflect any sense on my part that the difference is large, quite the contrary, it is, generally speaking, a quite trivial difference. And yet it is one, a mathematician would not say that 1.999999999993 is 2, although one might say that they were "almost identical." If you'd like to further qualify "almost identical", e.g., "identical except for the most trivial differences", or approach making this point otherwise, I'll have no issue. Rather than judging for our readers what is or isn't such a trivial difference that we just ignore that it exists entirely for them, it's more accurate (and emphasizes just how close the two institutions are, I'll add) to be explicit about the differences. -- Joe Decker ( talk) 15:11, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
From 1 May 2009, IVF, surrogacy and other parentage rights and even access rights will be granted to all couples regardless of sexual orientation, marital or relationship status or gender of the partners. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.148.207.230 ( talk) 13:32, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
This article is extremely limited, barely saying anything other than the mechanics of the legislation. It ought to have sections on the subsequent impact on society (approval rates amongst the population/proportion of civil-partnered couples remaining together etc. etc.) and the attitude to civil partnerships from those favouring equal marriage and/or equal partnership, including political parties (Lib Dems for the former, Greens for both). Salopian ( talk) 06:59, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Paul Jeffrey Thompson 09:00, 17 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pjthompso ( talk • contribs)
Hi, I’ve been working on a biographic entry about Dr. Peter Scott-Morgan who’s notable for non-LGBT issues – though in my research I’ve just discovered he also helped change same-sex immigration law in the USA! The BBC coverage about him having been the first civil partner in Devon (with his partner of 27 years) was complete news to me and a complete other side to what’s generally reported about him. So I thought it might be interesting to add this bridge between the two very-different entries. Hope that’s helpful and OK. LisaNotsimpson ( talk) 12:51, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
For clarity, I'm opening a new section. I have provided a corrected lede multiple times (as had another user, who created a different wording) which reflects the fact that the legally-entitled courtesy titles given to spouses of peers, not being available to civil partners of peers, represent a difference in the rights (in the general sense of the word) between the two institutions. I have cited WP:JARGON as a policy statement suggesting that the general sense, rather than the technical legal sense, is the most appropriate usage of the word "rights" in this Wikipedia article. An anonymous user at 86.172.196.114 has reverted these changes 3-4 times. I've asked the matter be discussed here on the Talk page with respect to the specific points I've made, and at this time I repeat my request. -- Joe Decker ( talk) 07:38, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Fair point. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 22:15, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Does anyone know if civil partnerships are available in British Overseas Territories, or perhaps in some of the territories that have less legislative autonomy, or what? I ask because Wikipedia's world map of laws on the subject has blue coloring (i.e. civil partnerships recognized) for Pitcairn Island and a couple of islands in the Lesser Antilles that I believe are Anguilla and Montserrat, but other BOT (e.g. Bermuda, the Caymans) are grey (i.e. no partnerships are recognized). There doesn't seem to be any info on the relevant recognition of same-sex unions article or in this article. -- Jfruh ( talk) 16:29, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
*Anguilla - have sodomy laws *Bermuda - NO - sodomy laws *the British Antarctic Territory - no population / no elected government. *the British Indian Ocean Territory - no population / no elected government. *the British Virgin Islands - have sodomy laws punishable with up to life imprisonment at the discretion of the judge. *the Cayman Islands - limited equal rights *the Falkland Islands - homosexuality is legal *Gibraltar - has no sodomy laws, the age of sexual consent is 18 for homosexuals, and 16 for heterosexuals. *Montserrat - have sodomy laws *Saint Helena, Ascension, Tristan da Cunha, - homosexuality is legal *the Turks and Caicos Islands - have sodomy laws *the Pitcairn Islands, South Georgia and South Sandwich Islands,
The Falkland Islands are looking at offering Civil Partnerships under UK legislation. This is possible and should come into action in September 2011 — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
195.59.131.38 (
talk)
21:43, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
Further to this discussion, I've added a section to the article about British crown dependencies and overseas territories, because I feel it's something unlikely to be covered adequately elsewhere and because the UK is, ultimately, sovereign. The UK could force territories' hands if desired, and if not doing so is ever deemed contrary to EU law in the future, probably will. So far, to my knowledge, only the Isle of Man and Jersey have implemented CP legislation; Guernsey is looking into it. I can't find any confirmation about the Falklands at present, and certainly some of the Caribbean territories have been openly against the prospect of CPs (most vocally, the Caymans). But I think the whole area of the OTs will be worth watching on this subject in the years to come. Bradpogo ( talk) 00:44, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
A section describing the differences between CP and traditional marriage would be useful. As someone above said, the article hints at there being some differences but doesn't really say what. From what I can gather there are only a few differences - 1. it isn't called marriage, 2. it is only available to people of the same sex, 3. it can't be performed in a place of worship (unless that has now changed) and 4. the issue about hereditary titles which isn't really of much importance. Is that it? How does this compare to CPs in other countries? Most don't allow for custody of children and many have limits on insurance rights and inheritance. A proper comparison with traditional marriage and between different countries is needed. Plus how amazing is it that it will be a Conservative government who finally open marriage to everybody? Just 20 years ago they didn't even consider gay people to be normal yet they've come so far since (shame about the economic mess though).-- 79.34.11.198 ( talk) 22:49, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
1. Civil partnerships are not recognised anywhere else in the world. This can cause major problems with immigration and holidays. Even countries which have same-sex marriage or civil unions do not recognise British civil partnerships, because they are not the same. Marriage, on the other hand, is recognised universally.
2. Pension differences, which actually continue an inequality in the law that already existed. If a married person dies, their spouse is entitled to a higher amount from their pension if they are a widow than if they are a widower. If a person in a civil partnership dies, their partner is treated as a married man and receives the lower amount, regardless of their actual gender.
3. By calling it "civil partnership" instead of "marriage", this means that people in a civil partnership have to out themselves as LGBT every time they so much as tick a box on a form which lists civil partnership separately from marriage. We would not ask people to identify on such forms if they were in a mixed-race or mixed-faith relationship.
4. A marriage can be performed in a house of worship and be legally binding. A civil partnership is purely civil, and is not permitted to contain any religious content. And yes, there are several religions which have openly lobbied for the ability to marry same-sex couples, namely Reform Judaism, Liberal Judaism, Quakerism (the Society of Friends), and Unitarianism.
5. There is no appropriate title for a woman in a civil partnership: neither "Miss" nor "Mrs" apply. "Ms" is still not used all that much, and many organisations simply do not recognise it as an option (trust me, I've been called "Mrs" or "Miss" more times than I've been called "Ms", even though I make a point of insisting that my title is "Ms". This is actually a problem for all women who are neither single nor married, for instance if they are living with their partner, or any woman who does not wish to reveal her marital status in her title).
6. Language is also lacking in other areas: there is no verb analagous to "marry", so you can't say "I got civil-partnered last year". "Civil partner" is too clunky for everyday use (I have never encountered a single person who refers to their partner in that way), and few people accept the terms "husband", "wife" or "spouse" for same-sex couples. This reflects a continuing social inequality where civil partnerships are seen as being inferior to marriage.
Elettaria ( talk) 12:34, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
Gibraltar has recently legalised a civil partnership bill which has been given Royal Assent. I was wondering if the wording in the Overseas Territories section of the article should therefore be changed? Specifically when it says "none of the overse... etc." which is now incorrect Bezuidenhout ( talk) 14:37, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
I came to this article looking to see if the number of couples opting for CP was in decline following the equalisation of the marriage laws in England & Wales, but as yet there seems to be no information about that. It would be interesting to know if CP is now effectively moribund - are there any figures available anywhere? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.156.255.22 ( talk) 13:55, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
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The article hints that there might be some minor differences with marriage. E.g. rights are not "identical" with marriage - they "mirror" those of marriage, while partnership dissolution is only "similar" to divorce. A section outlining any differences would be useful. If there are no differences, then the language in the article should make that clearer. The difference (or not) between marriage and civil partnership is a hot topic, so this distinction is worthy of discussion. Fig ( talk) 10:13, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
In this entry, there is the statement that the Civil Partnership Act 2004 gives same-sex couples rights and responsibilities identical to civil marriage. This is not true as there are a number of differences between the two unions and their consequences.
The processes of civil marriage and civil partnership are different. At both, a Licensed Registrar officiates, but whereas there is set wording at a marriage that has to be articulated, at a civil partnership there is set wording, but there is no requirement for it to be said, it merely has to be read by both parties. Indeed, although a civil wedding differs from a religious wedding in that one is a ceremony and the other a service, a civil partnership differs from a civil wedding on the basis that the latter requires no ceremony to take place at all. A civil partnership is merely an agreement that has to be signed by the parties and a Licensed Registrar and this can be done in silence.
Couples who marry become spouses whereas couples who register their civil partnership become civil partners. The rights of spouses regarding survivor pensions in certain final salary pension schemes do not extend to civil partners. Thus, it can arise that the surviving civil partner of a person who has contributed to such a scheme has no entitlement to a survivor’s pension from the scheme, but a surviving spouse is entitled to a widow’s or widower’s pension.
Although access to life insurance is equalised between opposite-sex and same-sex couples, this is not true of some other types of insurance. For example, some underwriters of car insurance policies offer lower premiums to married couples but do not offer lower rates to civil partners. Indeed, some refuse to allow civil partners to specify their marital status on insurance application forms and in doing so deny civil partners the opportunity to use their services at all. [I’d like a lawyer to tell me if this contravenes the Equality Act 2006 that outlaws discrimination against people on the basis of sexual orientation in the provision of goods and services].
TimChapman ( talk) 08:55, 12 November 2008 (UTC)Tim Chapman
I mentioned the process of registering a civil partnership at the Register Office because my understanding and experience is that civil partners have the right to insist that no ceremony takes place whereas same-sex couples getting married are obliged to have some form of ceremony. This, then, is one difference between the rights and responsibilities of civil partners and married people, albeit a small one.
Contrary to your assertion, I did not claim that being called a civil partner or a spouse was a right under the CPA or the Marriage Act. Without reference to legislation, I stated the fact that couples who marry become spouses and couples who register their civil partnership become civil partners. I made this statement in order to introduce the terminology so that I could use it to demonstrate how the rights of civil partners are different to those of spouses in relation to certain final salary pension schemes.
Given that you are part of a gay legal firm, assuming you are qualified, you’ll already be aware that legislation obliges certain company pension schemes to equalise benefits for spouses and civil partners, but only from 5th December 2005. This means that, for example, a single person who is a member of such a scheme could have made contributions into a pension fund for, say, 25 years then, in June 2006, become a civil partner. Any subsequent surviving civil partner pension from the fund will be based only on the member’s contributions from 5th December 2005 – ignoring the previous 25 years’ worth of contributions. However, had the member become a spouse in June 2006 through marriage, then any surviving spouse’s pension would be based on the entire contributions record, resulting in a substantially greater widow’s or widower’s pension over that of a surviving civil partner’s. If that’s not a difference between the rights of civil partners and those of married people, then I don’t know what is.
The above example reflects my own experience. I worked for a large plc for many years and on becoming a civil partner was advised that the 5th December 2005 cut-off applied. However, by using the company’s own claim to be an equal opportunities employer, I mounted a challenge and eventually the trustees of my pension scheme agreed to treat civil partners the same as spouses. But this was nevertheless a matter for the trustees’ discretion rather than the right that spouses have under the scheme. As the pension scheme is acting within the law, I shall not name it. Nevertheless, I know that there is at least one other final salary pension scheme which goes no further than the legislation requires because I read a letter in Gay Times a while back where a civil partner was complaining about this very thing – his scheme confirmed that they will ignore his contributions prior to 5th December 2005 in calculating the pension his civil partner will receive in the event of his death. I wrote to GT to try to contact this person and although my letter was published, he never replied, so I do not know the name of his pension scheme. But shame on the legislators who have allowed this to happen.
With regard to car insurers, a recent email to me from moneysupermarket.com advised “To confirm whether the lower premiums applied to Married couples also applies to a Civil Partnership you will have to contact the Car Insurer provided”. So here we have a player in the industry confirming that married people receive favourable treatment. My experience is that my premiums were higher when I was single than they would have been had I been married (even though my partner and I have been together since the late 1970s). Of course, this would also have applied to an unmarried same-sex couple, but they’ve always had the opportunity to gain marital rights by, er, getting married! There was nothing I could do to get them because I could not, and still cannot, marry my partner. I assumed that when I became a civil partner, I would have access to the same lower “married” premiums without difficulty. Not so, many insurance companies, such as Churchill and Saga to name two, do not even list civil partnership as an option.
Other service providers are also guilty of this. Abbey plc requires marital status information on its savings account online application forms but gives no option for civil partners. Ditto Citi Financial Europe plc and Egg plc in relation to their online applications for credit cards.
I am interested to read that you would relish the opportunity to tackle firms who do not comply with legislation in this area. If, as a gay man, my only option to gain legal recognition of my relationship with my male partner was to register a civil partnership and I then find my access to services barred as a consequence of my marital status, is that not discrimination against me on the basis of my sexual orientation? If so, isn’t that in breach of the Equality Act 2006? As these questions are outside the scope of this article, will you be good enough to contact me at tim.chapman@inbox.com as I’d be very interested in a legal professional’s take on this?
TimChapman ( talk) 16:42, 16 November 2008 (UTC)TimChapman
Many thanks for taking the trouble to reply again. The sentence that didn’t make sense was entirely my error, I meant to say “opposite-sex couples getting married”. I do apologise.
You say that, notwithstanding the 12/05 date, the right to the benefit itself matches that obtained by entering into a civil marriage. It may be that both civil partners and spouses gain rights to survivors’ pensions for their partners should they predecease them, but is it really the same right when one partner ends up getting far more money than the other? They both gain a right to the pension accrued from 12/05 but only the spouse gains the right to, as you put it, the full benefit of umpteen years of contributions.
You’re right that there’s a lot of personal experience in my posts and I seem to have misunderstood the nature of this forum. I guess that my experience to date of civil partnership has re-enforced my belief from the outset that we should not have been fobbed off with civil partnership but should simply have been allowed to get married like everyone else – then equality would have been delivered at a stroke; there would be no differences in relation to procedures, administration or rights and responsibilities and I would not be wasting my time being annoyed by them. Even this WP article would not need to exist - don’t forget the thing that started this off for me was the statement on WP that civil partners have identical rights and responsibilities to people in a civil marriage. As I have said, that statement is not true - my civil partner’s pension will be at someone’s discretion whereas if we were married it would be his right. They are not identical and that is not equality.
I don’t find it acceptable for civil partners to have to state that they are married in order to access services even if it is completely legal (and can you cite the legislation that confirms this?). With online forms, it’s not possible to cross out “married” and insert “civil partner” because one is obliged to select from available options in a pick-list, yet the application cannot proceed otherwise. I’m sure nobody would say to married people, “oh just tick something you’re not and carry on regardless”. If a form that asked about ethnicity and, in relation to skin colour, omitted black you would not suggest that a black person should just tick white, would you? If I was denied the right to use the marriage word at the Registry Office, I’m not willing to use it subsequently. I’ll be happy to call it marriage when they issue me with a marriage certificate. Meanwhile, I suggest that these organisations are, consequently, barring my access to their services on the basis of something that arises out of my sexual orientation. Not only do they have to provide their services on an equal basis, they also have to provide access to them on an equal basis. So, if group one sails straight through the process without difficulty but group two encounters obstacles, whether insurmountable or not, then they’re not offering equal access. There’s still stuff that needs fixing and if we all just pretend that what we’ve got now is okay, then it’ll stay broken.
I do agree, however, that we’re descending into chat so I guess I should stop here. It’s a shame we cannot chat offline but I do understand. Thank you for your input.
Tim Chapman —Preceding unsigned comment added by TimChapman ( talk • contribs) 16:41, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
WP:JARGON is not absolute (it's an essay, not a policy), but it does suggest using the common sense, not the technical legal sense of words, particularly when those usages are unqualified. As such I've changed the lede to say "almost" entirely. This does not reflect any sense on my part that the difference is large, quite the contrary, it is, generally speaking, a quite trivial difference. And yet it is one, a mathematician would not say that 1.999999999993 is 2, although one might say that they were "almost identical." If you'd like to further qualify "almost identical", e.g., "identical except for the most trivial differences", or approach making this point otherwise, I'll have no issue. Rather than judging for our readers what is or isn't such a trivial difference that we just ignore that it exists entirely for them, it's more accurate (and emphasizes just how close the two institutions are, I'll add) to be explicit about the differences. -- Joe Decker ( talk) 15:11, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
From 1 May 2009, IVF, surrogacy and other parentage rights and even access rights will be granted to all couples regardless of sexual orientation, marital or relationship status or gender of the partners. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.148.207.230 ( talk) 13:32, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
This article is extremely limited, barely saying anything other than the mechanics of the legislation. It ought to have sections on the subsequent impact on society (approval rates amongst the population/proportion of civil-partnered couples remaining together etc. etc.) and the attitude to civil partnerships from those favouring equal marriage and/or equal partnership, including political parties (Lib Dems for the former, Greens for both). Salopian ( talk) 06:59, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Paul Jeffrey Thompson 09:00, 17 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pjthompso ( talk • contribs)
Hi, I’ve been working on a biographic entry about Dr. Peter Scott-Morgan who’s notable for non-LGBT issues – though in my research I’ve just discovered he also helped change same-sex immigration law in the USA! The BBC coverage about him having been the first civil partner in Devon (with his partner of 27 years) was complete news to me and a complete other side to what’s generally reported about him. So I thought it might be interesting to add this bridge between the two very-different entries. Hope that’s helpful and OK. LisaNotsimpson ( talk) 12:51, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
For clarity, I'm opening a new section. I have provided a corrected lede multiple times (as had another user, who created a different wording) which reflects the fact that the legally-entitled courtesy titles given to spouses of peers, not being available to civil partners of peers, represent a difference in the rights (in the general sense of the word) between the two institutions. I have cited WP:JARGON as a policy statement suggesting that the general sense, rather than the technical legal sense, is the most appropriate usage of the word "rights" in this Wikipedia article. An anonymous user at 86.172.196.114 has reverted these changes 3-4 times. I've asked the matter be discussed here on the Talk page with respect to the specific points I've made, and at this time I repeat my request. -- Joe Decker ( talk) 07:38, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Fair point. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 22:15, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Does anyone know if civil partnerships are available in British Overseas Territories, or perhaps in some of the territories that have less legislative autonomy, or what? I ask because Wikipedia's world map of laws on the subject has blue coloring (i.e. civil partnerships recognized) for Pitcairn Island and a couple of islands in the Lesser Antilles that I believe are Anguilla and Montserrat, but other BOT (e.g. Bermuda, the Caymans) are grey (i.e. no partnerships are recognized). There doesn't seem to be any info on the relevant recognition of same-sex unions article or in this article. -- Jfruh ( talk) 16:29, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
*Anguilla - have sodomy laws *Bermuda - NO - sodomy laws *the British Antarctic Territory - no population / no elected government. *the British Indian Ocean Territory - no population / no elected government. *the British Virgin Islands - have sodomy laws punishable with up to life imprisonment at the discretion of the judge. *the Cayman Islands - limited equal rights *the Falkland Islands - homosexuality is legal *Gibraltar - has no sodomy laws, the age of sexual consent is 18 for homosexuals, and 16 for heterosexuals. *Montserrat - have sodomy laws *Saint Helena, Ascension, Tristan da Cunha, - homosexuality is legal *the Turks and Caicos Islands - have sodomy laws *the Pitcairn Islands, South Georgia and South Sandwich Islands,
The Falkland Islands are looking at offering Civil Partnerships under UK legislation. This is possible and should come into action in September 2011 — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
195.59.131.38 (
talk)
21:43, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
Further to this discussion, I've added a section to the article about British crown dependencies and overseas territories, because I feel it's something unlikely to be covered adequately elsewhere and because the UK is, ultimately, sovereign. The UK could force territories' hands if desired, and if not doing so is ever deemed contrary to EU law in the future, probably will. So far, to my knowledge, only the Isle of Man and Jersey have implemented CP legislation; Guernsey is looking into it. I can't find any confirmation about the Falklands at present, and certainly some of the Caribbean territories have been openly against the prospect of CPs (most vocally, the Caymans). But I think the whole area of the OTs will be worth watching on this subject in the years to come. Bradpogo ( talk) 00:44, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
A section describing the differences between CP and traditional marriage would be useful. As someone above said, the article hints at there being some differences but doesn't really say what. From what I can gather there are only a few differences - 1. it isn't called marriage, 2. it is only available to people of the same sex, 3. it can't be performed in a place of worship (unless that has now changed) and 4. the issue about hereditary titles which isn't really of much importance. Is that it? How does this compare to CPs in other countries? Most don't allow for custody of children and many have limits on insurance rights and inheritance. A proper comparison with traditional marriage and between different countries is needed. Plus how amazing is it that it will be a Conservative government who finally open marriage to everybody? Just 20 years ago they didn't even consider gay people to be normal yet they've come so far since (shame about the economic mess though).-- 79.34.11.198 ( talk) 22:49, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
1. Civil partnerships are not recognised anywhere else in the world. This can cause major problems with immigration and holidays. Even countries which have same-sex marriage or civil unions do not recognise British civil partnerships, because they are not the same. Marriage, on the other hand, is recognised universally.
2. Pension differences, which actually continue an inequality in the law that already existed. If a married person dies, their spouse is entitled to a higher amount from their pension if they are a widow than if they are a widower. If a person in a civil partnership dies, their partner is treated as a married man and receives the lower amount, regardless of their actual gender.
3. By calling it "civil partnership" instead of "marriage", this means that people in a civil partnership have to out themselves as LGBT every time they so much as tick a box on a form which lists civil partnership separately from marriage. We would not ask people to identify on such forms if they were in a mixed-race or mixed-faith relationship.
4. A marriage can be performed in a house of worship and be legally binding. A civil partnership is purely civil, and is not permitted to contain any religious content. And yes, there are several religions which have openly lobbied for the ability to marry same-sex couples, namely Reform Judaism, Liberal Judaism, Quakerism (the Society of Friends), and Unitarianism.
5. There is no appropriate title for a woman in a civil partnership: neither "Miss" nor "Mrs" apply. "Ms" is still not used all that much, and many organisations simply do not recognise it as an option (trust me, I've been called "Mrs" or "Miss" more times than I've been called "Ms", even though I make a point of insisting that my title is "Ms". This is actually a problem for all women who are neither single nor married, for instance if they are living with their partner, or any woman who does not wish to reveal her marital status in her title).
6. Language is also lacking in other areas: there is no verb analagous to "marry", so you can't say "I got civil-partnered last year". "Civil partner" is too clunky for everyday use (I have never encountered a single person who refers to their partner in that way), and few people accept the terms "husband", "wife" or "spouse" for same-sex couples. This reflects a continuing social inequality where civil partnerships are seen as being inferior to marriage.
Elettaria ( talk) 12:34, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
Gibraltar has recently legalised a civil partnership bill which has been given Royal Assent. I was wondering if the wording in the Overseas Territories section of the article should therefore be changed? Specifically when it says "none of the overse... etc." which is now incorrect Bezuidenhout ( talk) 14:37, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
I came to this article looking to see if the number of couples opting for CP was in decline following the equalisation of the marriage laws in England & Wales, but as yet there seems to be no information about that. It would be interesting to know if CP is now effectively moribund - are there any figures available anywhere? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.156.255.22 ( talk) 13:55, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
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