![]() | Cirth was nominated as a Language and literature good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (December 19, 2016). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated. |
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Who wrote this? and why do people care more about the tengwar that the angerthas??? Jrcrisologo 03:03, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
this is an awful article. doesn't fit in with formatting standards. inadequate information. doesn't cite sources of information. i don't know how to do it because i'm a newbie but i suggest a senior merge it with the other article "cirth" as was suggested by the other user or at the very elast exand on the information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tony4moroney ( talk • contribs) 12:28, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Maybe the table that shows the Cirth characters should have the IPA in it, just to help with pronunciation. Seriously, it's as if a child wrote it. How is anyone supposed to know what the table is talking about? I could add the IPA pronunciation myself, but I don't know how to pronounce the letters. Adding the IPA would probably make more sense than "nj-z" or "&" or "+h". I could also possibly upload some images of the runic letters for those who don't have the unicode to support them, which would make more sense than "mirror rune of ᚹ w". Also, characters number 57 and 58 don't appear to have any kind of pronunciation, and the footnotes don't seem to lead anywhere. In short, that table seems pretty darn confusing. Cloudy fox 001 ( talk) 22:58, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
![]() |
p |
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ʒ |
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l |
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ɛ |
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b |
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ndʒ–z |
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l̥ |
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ɛ: |
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f |
![]() |
k |
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ŋg–nd |
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ɑ |
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v |
![]() |
g |
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s–h |
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ɑ: |
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ʍ |
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x |
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s–ʔ |
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ɔ |
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m |
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ɣ |
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z–ŋ |
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ɔ: |
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ɱ, mb |
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ŋ–n |
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ŋg* |
![]() ![]() |
œ |
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t |
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kʷ |
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nd–ndʒ |
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n* |
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d |
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gʷ |
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i, (j) |
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h–s |
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θ |
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xʷ |
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j* |
![]() ![]() |
ə* ? |
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ð |
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ɣʷ, w |
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ç* ? |
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ʌ* ? |
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n–r |
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ŋgʷ |
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u |
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ps* |
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tʃ |
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nʷ |
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u: |
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ts* |
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dʒ |
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r–dʒ |
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w |
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ʰ |
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ʃ |
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r̥–ʒ |
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y |
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& |
mh won't be [ɱ]; rather it will presumably be old Sindarin lenited m, [ṽ]. The other guesses look reasonable, though I might've written devoiced [j̥] rather than [ç]. 4pq1injbok ( talk) 21:31, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
I've modified the annotation of the table in § Letters.
-- Thnidu ( talk) 03:44, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
I have rewritten the whole article in my "User sandbox" (see
User:Asþont/Cirth), improving the table with IPA sounds and creating a section for each of the modes used to write with Cirth (Early Cirth, Runes used in The Hobbit, Certhas Daeron, Angerthas Daeron, Angerthas Moria, Angerthas Erebor) allowing a complete set of information on Tolkien's runic alphabets.
Hope you'll like it. If you do, could I substitute this version with mine?
PS. if I submit my sandbox for review, am I going to create a page conflict (As my version and the current would have the same title)?
ᚪᛋᚦᚩᚾᛏ (Asþont) | Talk 22:50, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
This article has been marked with the {{
In-universe}}
template by
Kintetsubuffalo (
talk ·
contribs). I am going to rewrite it in order to explain the fiction more clearly and provide non-fictional perspective in my sandbox:
User:Asþont/Cirth. I will then post the new-written article here so to receive feedbacks. Advices are always well accepted!
ᚪᛋᚦᚩᚾᛏ (Asþont) |
Talk
12:48, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
There are many references to the rune values, but checking up on those references they are almost all for Tengwar, not Cirth. Of course, different alphabets for the languages probably provide the same pronunciations, but I still see some weird discrepancies I cannot resolve.
For example the chart 'The later Noldorin use' (APPENDIX ON RUNES, p. 461 of The History of Middle-earth Vol. 7: The Treason of Isengard) uses transliteration 'st' for the letter here marked with transliteration 'ch' (after Appendix E from LotR 3: Return of the King), using IPA [c⁽ȷ̊⁾] for Noldorin, while using transliteration 'ch' for the letter here marked 'kh' (/x/). This is very weird to me, because there is no way I can imagine using 'st' to transliterate a value close to /c/. The source 'RealElvish.net' seems to me less trustful than Tolkien's first-hand transliteration. Parma Eldalamberon XXII is a bit too dense for me to parse immediately, but at first glance it seems to not actually discuss the letter in question, and needs a bunch of linguistic inferencing. I think this needs to be made more explicit, or rather removed completely because it comes down to original work that deviates from Tolkien's source. Ocky7 ( talk) 12:59, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
![]() | Cirth was nominated as a Language and literature good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (December 19, 2016). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated. |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
Who wrote this? and why do people care more about the tengwar that the angerthas??? Jrcrisologo 03:03, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
this is an awful article. doesn't fit in with formatting standards. inadequate information. doesn't cite sources of information. i don't know how to do it because i'm a newbie but i suggest a senior merge it with the other article "cirth" as was suggested by the other user or at the very elast exand on the information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tony4moroney ( talk • contribs) 12:28, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Maybe the table that shows the Cirth characters should have the IPA in it, just to help with pronunciation. Seriously, it's as if a child wrote it. How is anyone supposed to know what the table is talking about? I could add the IPA pronunciation myself, but I don't know how to pronounce the letters. Adding the IPA would probably make more sense than "nj-z" or "&" or "+h". I could also possibly upload some images of the runic letters for those who don't have the unicode to support them, which would make more sense than "mirror rune of ᚹ w". Also, characters number 57 and 58 don't appear to have any kind of pronunciation, and the footnotes don't seem to lead anywhere. In short, that table seems pretty darn confusing. Cloudy fox 001 ( talk) 22:58, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
![]() |
p |
![]() |
ʒ |
![]() |
l |
![]() |
ɛ |
![]() |
b |
![]() |
ndʒ–z |
![]() |
l̥ |
![]() |
ɛ: |
![]() |
f |
![]() |
k |
![]() |
ŋg–nd |
![]() |
ɑ |
![]() |
v |
![]() |
g |
![]() |
s–h |
![]() |
ɑ: |
![]() |
ʍ |
![]() |
x |
![]() |
s–ʔ |
![]() |
ɔ |
![]() |
m |
![]() |
ɣ |
![]() |
z–ŋ |
![]() ![]() |
ɔ: |
![]() |
ɱ, mb |
![]() |
ŋ–n |
![]() |
ŋg* |
![]() ![]() |
œ |
![]() |
t |
![]() |
kʷ |
![]() ![]() |
nd–ndʒ |
![]() |
n* |
![]() |
d |
![]() |
gʷ |
![]() |
i, (j) |
![]() |
h–s |
![]() |
θ |
![]() |
xʷ |
![]() |
j* |
![]() ![]() |
ə* ? |
![]() |
ð |
![]() |
ɣʷ, w |
![]() |
ç* ? |
![]() ![]() |
ʌ* ? |
![]() |
n–r |
![]() |
ŋgʷ |
![]() |
u |
![]() |
ps* |
![]() |
tʃ |
![]() |
nʷ |
![]() |
u: |
![]() |
ts* |
![]() |
dʒ |
![]() |
r–dʒ |
![]() |
w |
![]() |
ʰ |
![]() |
ʃ |
![]() |
r̥–ʒ |
![]() ![]() |
y |
![]() |
& |
mh won't be [ɱ]; rather it will presumably be old Sindarin lenited m, [ṽ]. The other guesses look reasonable, though I might've written devoiced [j̥] rather than [ç]. 4pq1injbok ( talk) 21:31, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
I've modified the annotation of the table in § Letters.
-- Thnidu ( talk) 03:44, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
I have rewritten the whole article in my "User sandbox" (see
User:Asþont/Cirth), improving the table with IPA sounds and creating a section for each of the modes used to write with Cirth (Early Cirth, Runes used in The Hobbit, Certhas Daeron, Angerthas Daeron, Angerthas Moria, Angerthas Erebor) allowing a complete set of information on Tolkien's runic alphabets.
Hope you'll like it. If you do, could I substitute this version with mine?
PS. if I submit my sandbox for review, am I going to create a page conflict (As my version and the current would have the same title)?
ᚪᛋᚦᚩᚾᛏ (Asþont) | Talk 22:50, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
This article has been marked with the {{
In-universe}}
template by
Kintetsubuffalo (
talk ·
contribs). I am going to rewrite it in order to explain the fiction more clearly and provide non-fictional perspective in my sandbox:
User:Asþont/Cirth. I will then post the new-written article here so to receive feedbacks. Advices are always well accepted!
ᚪᛋᚦᚩᚾᛏ (Asþont) |
Talk
12:48, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
There are many references to the rune values, but checking up on those references they are almost all for Tengwar, not Cirth. Of course, different alphabets for the languages probably provide the same pronunciations, but I still see some weird discrepancies I cannot resolve.
For example the chart 'The later Noldorin use' (APPENDIX ON RUNES, p. 461 of The History of Middle-earth Vol. 7: The Treason of Isengard) uses transliteration 'st' for the letter here marked with transliteration 'ch' (after Appendix E from LotR 3: Return of the King), using IPA [c⁽ȷ̊⁾] for Noldorin, while using transliteration 'ch' for the letter here marked 'kh' (/x/). This is very weird to me, because there is no way I can imagine using 'st' to transliterate a value close to /c/. The source 'RealElvish.net' seems to me less trustful than Tolkien's first-hand transliteration. Parma Eldalamberon XXII is a bit too dense for me to parse immediately, but at first glance it seems to not actually discuss the letter in question, and needs a bunch of linguistic inferencing. I think this needs to be made more explicit, or rather removed completely because it comes down to original work that deviates from Tolkien's source. Ocky7 ( talk) 12:59, 2 January 2023 (UTC)