This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
User:Jredmond removed the text ", a form of genital mutilation. If done on males it is a the" [1] claiming "revert to Fuzheado's last revert, for NPOV". Now I wonder what's so POV with calling things by their name? // Liftarn
My source is many the swedisg magazine Läkartidningen and they are only available online if you are a member, but one axample available is http://ltarkiv.lakartidningen.se/artNo22925 you may also want to check out [3]. You can also try searching for "MGM" or "Male Genital Mutilation". Also see Talk:Female_circumcision for a discussion about what consitutes genital mutilation. // Liftarn
Where do you find evidence of that doctors disagree with using the term "genital mutilation"? Since it's clearly is a form of mutilation by any use of the term it should somehow be included in the article. Also the intro should be rewritten to cover both male and female circumcision (becoming gender neutral). I think the controvery over calling things what they are is due to the US bias of Wikipedia. // Liftarn
Let's try and see where we agree first, and then describe the areas of disagreement.
I don't know if any of the above analysis helps. If not, then just consider this:
The problem is that it is mutilation. However, some find the word offensive. Some words are avoided because they feel uncomfortable. For instance in Sweden I have never heard anybody use the word "piercing" when it's done in the ears. Having the ears pierces is so mainstream it's not even considered a form of piercing. Also circ is not the only form of mutilation, only the most common form. Also from another perspecive I find it odd that we have an article about female circ, but not about male. // Liftarn
You can't call it mutilation as a fact. That statement will be true or false depending on your point of view concerning circumcision. If you are against it then the definition of mutilation will fit, if are for it then the definition will not fit. Dictionary.com defines mutilation as (1) To deprive of a limb or an essential part; cripple. (2) To disfigure by damaging irreparably. (3) To make imperfect by excising or altering parts. 1: Your foreskin is not a limb, but it may or may not be considered essential, that is dependant on your POV. 2: While circumcision is irreparable, whether it is disfigurement or damaging is again dependant on your views. 3: You are certainly excising or altering a part of you but whether that makes you imperfect or not is once again a judgement based on POV. Add to that mutilation certainly implies negativity. In the quest for a NPOV article it would be a mistake to imply negativity by calling circumcision mutilation without a qualifying explanation such as the one Uncle Ed alluded to above. -- Starx 03:31, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
By the way, should we mention that an estimated 50-300 male babies die each year in the USA as a result of circumcision? // Liftarn
Not without a reference like this: "While American medicine keeps no systematic record, estimates of US deaths rates range to over 200 per year." [5] -- Uncle Ed 16:57, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The above website seem sympathetic to "genital integrity", so I doubt that they're downplaying the life-or-death aspect. -- Uncle Ed 17:04, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I'm getting the idea that it's when primitive tribes do it (especially to girls) that it's so dangerous. But, we'll know when we finish the research. Anyone else want to do the googling now? -- Uncle Ed 17:06, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
First, a quote from "Webster's Dictionary" is completely useless. Anyone can make a dictionary and call it "Webster's". You might as well say your definition is from "some dictionary". On the other hand, the "Merriam-Webster Dictionary" has a long tradition and reputation for accuracy, and the Merriam-Webster dictionary defines "mutilate" as :
Given this definition, I don't think it is neutral to use it to describe circumcision. Many people would disagree that a circumcised penis is "altered radically", "imperfect", or "permanently destroyed", yours truly included. The word mutilate has a very strong connotation of negative effect and therefore using it to describe circumcision is inherently POV.
Finally, I think that the POV problem that User:Jmabel was alluding to in Talk:Circumcision/Archive 2 is that this article focuses too much on the controversy and strong opinions held by advocates on both sides of the circumcision debate. The reality is that most people don't hold strong points of view on circumcision—like me, many people simply don't care whether or note babies are routinely circumcised or consider whether or not it is mutilation. As a circumcised male, I find much of the anti-circumcision advocates' implications that my parents and pediatrician mutilated me or that I'm in some way sexually dysfunctional not only specious, but offensive. In fact, I'd qualify my POV as being against BOTH anti-circumcision and pro-circumcision advocates, who seek to normalize society and make everyone's penises the same. But I don't see this POV represented in the article at all. Nohat 17:24, 2004 Mar 18 (UTC)
I regard any alteration of the natural state of an infant's body (or child's body) without a compelling medical reason to be mutilation. We know the "disease prevention" argument is entirely specious; it would be far more effective to perform routine radical mastectomies on girls for disease prevention than to perform routine circumcision on boys. The only true reasons for circumcision is for an alteration in appearance and in function. While many men seem to feel that circumcision has not affected their sexual functioning, a significant number do. Thus, while I agree that the "mutilation" thing should be couched in NPOV language, I strongly feel that that's exactly what it is by any truly objective definition. And it's clearly a COERCIVE act; that's inescapable -- the victim has absolutely no say in the matter on any level at any time in his life. jaknouse 17:39, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Let's not confuse "objective" with "neutral". Anyway, Jaknouse has a point of view:
Let's do a bit of research and see if we can find a published author who agrees, and then quote that source. Heck, why not quote two different sources, one medical and one civilian? There's plenty of room in the database... -- Uncle Ed 18:58, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
To destroy or remove a part of: it's that simple. If you don't like the term or feel that it is POV, that is because you are attaching your own feelings to it. Tannin 20:44, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I agree, and I am completely against circumcision. Let's use the term "mutilation" with attribution, as it implies certain conclusions (foreskin=essential, removing foreskin=makes body less perfect) which are at the very center of the circumcision debate. —Eloquence 20:54, Mar 18, 2004 (UTC)
"foreskin amputation"? "forscinectomy"? // Liftarn
Hello, I've been reading the mutilation discussion and I think that it maybe better to do as you've been trying to do, find a word that is better suited to the situation. Mutilation has a negative connotation, and thus a likely pov problem, (from www.m-w.com):
Synonyms MAIM, cripple, dislimb, dismember, mayhem Related Word damage, hurt, injure, mar, spoil; deface 2 Synonyms STERILIZE, alter, castrate, change, desexualize, fix, geld, neuter, unsex
Perhaps use foreskin amputation like it was suggested and use the mutilation term as the "discription used by some opponents of circumcision" in the pro/con section. -- ShaunMacPherson 05:40, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Nohat: since some people think that circumcised penises are superior to uncircumcised ones -- well, they are demonstrably wrong. And anyway, it is still damage to tissue. If I have a life-saving operation, there is still damage done to me when they cut me open. -- Tarquin 16:36, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)
So you think aesthetics justify the removal of a body part that has a clear purpose? Do you approve of female circumcision too, because it's more aesthetic? -- Tarquin 12:13, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
It's not POV to state that circumcision constitutes mutilation. To say that genitaly mutilating babies is wrong is POV, soem people obviously feel that genital mutilation is OK. To state that the pain felt by babies is the same as pain felt by sentient persons is in line with current medical knowledge so it's not POV. To state that circumcision is abusive is POV, but to state that non-consentual circumcision is abusive is not. To state that newborn babies have the right not be circumcised is perhaps POV since it raised the qyestion about what a right is. // Liftarn
That's your POV. You are ofcourse entitled to an opinion, but just because you think something doesn't make it a fact. // Liftarn
I am not "intent on portraying circumcision in a negative light", but I am interested in showing it in an unbiased light. If you have a problem with unbiased text and words I suggest you first take a look at your own bias. You whitewash certainly is POV. // Liftarn
I am astonished at the temerity of you, Liftarn, as a non-native speaker, to argue with native speakers about what words in their own language mean! I am simply dumbfounded that you would have such impudent assurance as to engage in such a heated debate using an understanding of the meaning of a word based on how it is translated to another language! Anyone who has learned a second language should know that even if words have equivalent denotations in different languages their connotations can vary dramatically, as seems that's the case with "mutilation". I'm a fairly competent Spanish speaker but I would never, ever have the gall to argue with a native Spanish speaker about the meaning of a Spanish word. For shame, Liftarn, for shame. Nohat 18:11, 2004 Apr 7 (UTC)
"könsstympning" is used to describe both male and female circumcision ("omskärelse" in Swedish) as well as some rarer practices. The useage of the term "genital mutilation" is advocated because it simplifies the language. If you just say "circumcision" people may think it's just the male form you are refering to. If you instead use the term "genital modification" it isn't clear what you are refering to. Try the google test and see what you find. I think I understand why you are trying to push yout POV, perhaps it's beacause I'm an "outsider" I can see the issue without your cultural bias. // Liftarn
A ritual where you simply cut the ridged band have been suggested as a more humane alternative to removing the entire foreskin. Perhaps this could also go into the article. // Liftarn
I reorganized the article, putting all the discussion of contemporary circumcision at the top, and the history at the end, rather than having the history separating two sections containing information about contemporary circumcision. I also renamed the section "The movement against routine neonatal circumcision" to "Contemporary attitudes towards circumcision", which more completely describes the content of that section. I also reorganized that section so the pro-circumcision content comes first, and the anti-circumcision content comes second. I defend this decision on two prongs: first, arguments are usually presented in PRO/CON order, but also, the pro-circumcision content in that section is only most of one paragraph, while the remaining five paragraphs are anti-circumcision, so putting the pro-circumcision content first balances the fact that it's much less. Feel free to tweak it, but if you revert it, I'd like to know why. Nohat 22:48, 2004 Mar 29 (UTC)
Quote: The United States is the only country that still practices circumcision routinely on a majority of infants for non-religious reasons.
This seems suspect, especially in light of the later discussion concerning South Korea. Additionally, a number of Pacific Island nations are mentioned in the list. Is circumcision in these nations a native practice, or was the custom instroduced by English missionary activity or medical practice? Shimmin 18:09, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
"Many of these groups try to avoid vocabulary like "anti-circumcision" in order to avoid confusion with the adult circumcision issue; the critics of the movement, however, often use such vocabulary." This sentence is unclear: what is "the adult circumcision issue"? I think a discussion of debate over terms is appropriate, but I'm not sure what this means, so I'm not the one to clarify. Nohat 00:58, 2004 Apr 7 (UTC)
The Council of Florence is also viewed by many, including the Catholic Encyclopedia as cementing the rupture between Roman Catholicism and other Christian denominations, including Greek Catholics and Hussites. Exact opposite is true. The Council of Florence was last attempt of reconcialition of both Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. There were no Greek Catholics at that time and since their establishing they were always in good terms with the pope. Hussites had nothing to do with Council of Florence. It was the Council of Basle they took part in. Since the orginal statement was meaningless, I've deleted it. -- Vít Zvánovec 12:52, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
User:Jredmond removed the text ", a form of genital mutilation. If done on males it is a the" [1] claiming "revert to Fuzheado's last revert, for NPOV". Now I wonder what's so POV with calling things by their name? // Liftarn
My source is many the swedisg magazine Läkartidningen and they are only available online if you are a member, but one axample available is http://ltarkiv.lakartidningen.se/artNo22925 you may also want to check out [3]. You can also try searching for "MGM" or "Male Genital Mutilation". Also see Talk:Female_circumcision for a discussion about what consitutes genital mutilation. // Liftarn
Where do you find evidence of that doctors disagree with using the term "genital mutilation"? Since it's clearly is a form of mutilation by any use of the term it should somehow be included in the article. Also the intro should be rewritten to cover both male and female circumcision (becoming gender neutral). I think the controvery over calling things what they are is due to the US bias of Wikipedia. // Liftarn
Let's try and see where we agree first, and then describe the areas of disagreement.
I don't know if any of the above analysis helps. If not, then just consider this:
The problem is that it is mutilation. However, some find the word offensive. Some words are avoided because they feel uncomfortable. For instance in Sweden I have never heard anybody use the word "piercing" when it's done in the ears. Having the ears pierces is so mainstream it's not even considered a form of piercing. Also circ is not the only form of mutilation, only the most common form. Also from another perspecive I find it odd that we have an article about female circ, but not about male. // Liftarn
You can't call it mutilation as a fact. That statement will be true or false depending on your point of view concerning circumcision. If you are against it then the definition of mutilation will fit, if are for it then the definition will not fit. Dictionary.com defines mutilation as (1) To deprive of a limb or an essential part; cripple. (2) To disfigure by damaging irreparably. (3) To make imperfect by excising or altering parts. 1: Your foreskin is not a limb, but it may or may not be considered essential, that is dependant on your POV. 2: While circumcision is irreparable, whether it is disfigurement or damaging is again dependant on your views. 3: You are certainly excising or altering a part of you but whether that makes you imperfect or not is once again a judgement based on POV. Add to that mutilation certainly implies negativity. In the quest for a NPOV article it would be a mistake to imply negativity by calling circumcision mutilation without a qualifying explanation such as the one Uncle Ed alluded to above. -- Starx 03:31, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
By the way, should we mention that an estimated 50-300 male babies die each year in the USA as a result of circumcision? // Liftarn
Not without a reference like this: "While American medicine keeps no systematic record, estimates of US deaths rates range to over 200 per year." [5] -- Uncle Ed 16:57, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The above website seem sympathetic to "genital integrity", so I doubt that they're downplaying the life-or-death aspect. -- Uncle Ed 17:04, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I'm getting the idea that it's when primitive tribes do it (especially to girls) that it's so dangerous. But, we'll know when we finish the research. Anyone else want to do the googling now? -- Uncle Ed 17:06, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
First, a quote from "Webster's Dictionary" is completely useless. Anyone can make a dictionary and call it "Webster's". You might as well say your definition is from "some dictionary". On the other hand, the "Merriam-Webster Dictionary" has a long tradition and reputation for accuracy, and the Merriam-Webster dictionary defines "mutilate" as :
Given this definition, I don't think it is neutral to use it to describe circumcision. Many people would disagree that a circumcised penis is "altered radically", "imperfect", or "permanently destroyed", yours truly included. The word mutilate has a very strong connotation of negative effect and therefore using it to describe circumcision is inherently POV.
Finally, I think that the POV problem that User:Jmabel was alluding to in Talk:Circumcision/Archive 2 is that this article focuses too much on the controversy and strong opinions held by advocates on both sides of the circumcision debate. The reality is that most people don't hold strong points of view on circumcision—like me, many people simply don't care whether or note babies are routinely circumcised or consider whether or not it is mutilation. As a circumcised male, I find much of the anti-circumcision advocates' implications that my parents and pediatrician mutilated me or that I'm in some way sexually dysfunctional not only specious, but offensive. In fact, I'd qualify my POV as being against BOTH anti-circumcision and pro-circumcision advocates, who seek to normalize society and make everyone's penises the same. But I don't see this POV represented in the article at all. Nohat 17:24, 2004 Mar 18 (UTC)
I regard any alteration of the natural state of an infant's body (or child's body) without a compelling medical reason to be mutilation. We know the "disease prevention" argument is entirely specious; it would be far more effective to perform routine radical mastectomies on girls for disease prevention than to perform routine circumcision on boys. The only true reasons for circumcision is for an alteration in appearance and in function. While many men seem to feel that circumcision has not affected their sexual functioning, a significant number do. Thus, while I agree that the "mutilation" thing should be couched in NPOV language, I strongly feel that that's exactly what it is by any truly objective definition. And it's clearly a COERCIVE act; that's inescapable -- the victim has absolutely no say in the matter on any level at any time in his life. jaknouse 17:39, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Let's not confuse "objective" with "neutral". Anyway, Jaknouse has a point of view:
Let's do a bit of research and see if we can find a published author who agrees, and then quote that source. Heck, why not quote two different sources, one medical and one civilian? There's plenty of room in the database... -- Uncle Ed 18:58, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
To destroy or remove a part of: it's that simple. If you don't like the term or feel that it is POV, that is because you are attaching your own feelings to it. Tannin 20:44, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I agree, and I am completely against circumcision. Let's use the term "mutilation" with attribution, as it implies certain conclusions (foreskin=essential, removing foreskin=makes body less perfect) which are at the very center of the circumcision debate. —Eloquence 20:54, Mar 18, 2004 (UTC)
"foreskin amputation"? "forscinectomy"? // Liftarn
Hello, I've been reading the mutilation discussion and I think that it maybe better to do as you've been trying to do, find a word that is better suited to the situation. Mutilation has a negative connotation, and thus a likely pov problem, (from www.m-w.com):
Synonyms MAIM, cripple, dislimb, dismember, mayhem Related Word damage, hurt, injure, mar, spoil; deface 2 Synonyms STERILIZE, alter, castrate, change, desexualize, fix, geld, neuter, unsex
Perhaps use foreskin amputation like it was suggested and use the mutilation term as the "discription used by some opponents of circumcision" in the pro/con section. -- ShaunMacPherson 05:40, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Nohat: since some people think that circumcised penises are superior to uncircumcised ones -- well, they are demonstrably wrong. And anyway, it is still damage to tissue. If I have a life-saving operation, there is still damage done to me when they cut me open. -- Tarquin 16:36, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)
So you think aesthetics justify the removal of a body part that has a clear purpose? Do you approve of female circumcision too, because it's more aesthetic? -- Tarquin 12:13, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
It's not POV to state that circumcision constitutes mutilation. To say that genitaly mutilating babies is wrong is POV, soem people obviously feel that genital mutilation is OK. To state that the pain felt by babies is the same as pain felt by sentient persons is in line with current medical knowledge so it's not POV. To state that circumcision is abusive is POV, but to state that non-consentual circumcision is abusive is not. To state that newborn babies have the right not be circumcised is perhaps POV since it raised the qyestion about what a right is. // Liftarn
That's your POV. You are ofcourse entitled to an opinion, but just because you think something doesn't make it a fact. // Liftarn
I am not "intent on portraying circumcision in a negative light", but I am interested in showing it in an unbiased light. If you have a problem with unbiased text and words I suggest you first take a look at your own bias. You whitewash certainly is POV. // Liftarn
I am astonished at the temerity of you, Liftarn, as a non-native speaker, to argue with native speakers about what words in their own language mean! I am simply dumbfounded that you would have such impudent assurance as to engage in such a heated debate using an understanding of the meaning of a word based on how it is translated to another language! Anyone who has learned a second language should know that even if words have equivalent denotations in different languages their connotations can vary dramatically, as seems that's the case with "mutilation". I'm a fairly competent Spanish speaker but I would never, ever have the gall to argue with a native Spanish speaker about the meaning of a Spanish word. For shame, Liftarn, for shame. Nohat 18:11, 2004 Apr 7 (UTC)
"könsstympning" is used to describe both male and female circumcision ("omskärelse" in Swedish) as well as some rarer practices. The useage of the term "genital mutilation" is advocated because it simplifies the language. If you just say "circumcision" people may think it's just the male form you are refering to. If you instead use the term "genital modification" it isn't clear what you are refering to. Try the google test and see what you find. I think I understand why you are trying to push yout POV, perhaps it's beacause I'm an "outsider" I can see the issue without your cultural bias. // Liftarn
A ritual where you simply cut the ridged band have been suggested as a more humane alternative to removing the entire foreskin. Perhaps this could also go into the article. // Liftarn
I reorganized the article, putting all the discussion of contemporary circumcision at the top, and the history at the end, rather than having the history separating two sections containing information about contemporary circumcision. I also renamed the section "The movement against routine neonatal circumcision" to "Contemporary attitudes towards circumcision", which more completely describes the content of that section. I also reorganized that section so the pro-circumcision content comes first, and the anti-circumcision content comes second. I defend this decision on two prongs: first, arguments are usually presented in PRO/CON order, but also, the pro-circumcision content in that section is only most of one paragraph, while the remaining five paragraphs are anti-circumcision, so putting the pro-circumcision content first balances the fact that it's much less. Feel free to tweak it, but if you revert it, I'd like to know why. Nohat 22:48, 2004 Mar 29 (UTC)
Quote: The United States is the only country that still practices circumcision routinely on a majority of infants for non-religious reasons.
This seems suspect, especially in light of the later discussion concerning South Korea. Additionally, a number of Pacific Island nations are mentioned in the list. Is circumcision in these nations a native practice, or was the custom instroduced by English missionary activity or medical practice? Shimmin 18:09, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
"Many of these groups try to avoid vocabulary like "anti-circumcision" in order to avoid confusion with the adult circumcision issue; the critics of the movement, however, often use such vocabulary." This sentence is unclear: what is "the adult circumcision issue"? I think a discussion of debate over terms is appropriate, but I'm not sure what this means, so I'm not the one to clarify. Nohat 00:58, 2004 Apr 7 (UTC)
The Council of Florence is also viewed by many, including the Catholic Encyclopedia as cementing the rupture between Roman Catholicism and other Christian denominations, including Greek Catholics and Hussites. Exact opposite is true. The Council of Florence was last attempt of reconcialition of both Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. There were no Greek Catholics at that time and since their establishing they were always in good terms with the pope. Hussites had nothing to do with Council of Florence. It was the Council of Basle they took part in. Since the orginal statement was meaningless, I've deleted it. -- Vít Zvánovec 12:52, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)