This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
Editing of Introduction
Reference to ridged band and speculative "sensitivity" deleted to maintain neutrality. It is not acceptable to focus only on male circumcision as this indicates that circumcision is only mentioned so as to criticise the male practice. For the rest editing serves to balance the introduction between male and female circumcision. The subheadings are in need of review and extensive editing and rewriting. Robert Brookes
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References removed to review
The references were such that would be more inplace on an anti-male circumcision web site. They have been removed with the intent to compile relevant references once the whole article has been reviewed. Robert Brookes
---
External links weeded down ...
Starx wrote: External links weeded down to 7 on each side, though I think that's still too much.
This article is called "circumcision", no? The article should be about male and female circumcision and not a platform for the debate around male circumcision, yes? In an article about the earth would you insist that the "flat earth society" got the right to an equal number of external links? Why?
I suggest that when the entire article is rewritten and restructured and this particular aspect reviewed in detail later on in the process a selection of references and external links can be made. There is little point in keeping any of the references or external links as they now stand. Robert Brookes
*Obviously a complete article on circumcision is going to have to address the debate.
And your comment about the Flat Earth society is absurd. The earth is round, this is a scientific fact that is not disputed by anyone with credibility. The pros and cons of circumcision are disputed by credible people on both sides. Untill that's resolved to a certainty by the medical community the article, in the spirit of NPOV, should try and represent both sides equally. -- Starx 17:18, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
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Responding to Starx
If you analyse the volumes of trash posted by someone (I suppose it would have to be anti-circumcision) to the circumcision article you can see that the entry is not supposed to be an explanation of circumcision but rather a platform for a anti-circumcision rant. I am sad that this simple fact seems to escape you.
By all means have an entry/article by the title The circumcision debate where the "debate" will be the central point and where each side can have 10kb to state their case, but would it need any more than a passing reference and a link on the circumcision page?
Now a question. For the love of G_d can you explain to me what a link to foreskin.org is doing on the page of the circumcision article? Now I suppose it follows that the entry on "foreskin" should be dominated by coments and links to circumcision sites and issues?
As to absurd comparisons. The comparison with the flat earth society is not as absurd as you may think. It takes a fertile imagination and a joint to turn the humble old mammalian penile sheath into the prime sexual organ of the male. Its off the wall stuff. By all means mention this stuff but for heavens sake keep it in perspective otherwise it is really like demanding the Flat Earth Society is granted equal time at every geography conference. Robert Brookes
Female circumcision
Recent editors of this page have seemed to act under the conception that male circumcision and female circumcision are both forms of circumcision, and therefore should both be the focus of this page. However, it seems to me that circumcision is a modification of the male genitalia, and while some modifications of the female genitalia are sometimes called "female circumcision" by analogy, they are not circumcision.
Therefore, I think this page should contain a sentence in the header that acknolwedges that female genital modification / mutilation is sometimes called female circumcision, provides a link to the article on these practices, and states that this article concerns the removal of the prepuce.
The approach adopted by these recent editors seems aking to writing the article at ship to equally concern oceangoing vessels and lighter-than-air aircraft, on the grounds that the latter can be called airships, or writing the articles at carriage to concern horse-drawn vehicles and automobles, on the grounds that the latter can be called horseless carriages. Shimmin 17:49, Aug 13, 2004 (UTC)
Response to Shimmin
It is not helpful when to dabble in a subject you clearly know little about. Quite clearly there are aspects of female circumcision which are unique as there are aspects of male circumcision. The anti-male circumcision mob hang onto the female circumcision activism (not because they give a jot about what happens to women but) so as to attempt to have some of the respectability of that activism rub off on their own psycho-sexual obsession. 30 odd KB can't do justice to the subjects of both female and male circumcision. It would make sense to then have a "circumcision" page which acknowledges the two, highlights what is common and what is different and the allows interested parties to go to either (or both) a female circumcision or a male circumcision article.
This is the easy part. The difficult part is ensuring the objectivity of the end result. Take a read through the "circumcision" article as it was (and mainly still is) and see what a lack of NPOV and also the lack of factual accuracy means (this is a glaring example). One understands that the “first in” get to decide on what gets posted but eventually sanity must prevail, yes?
Seeing you see only a major difference between male and female circumcision would you like to draft such a paragraph? Robert Brookes
Re-establishment of Male circumcision as a separate entry
I propose that as for the "Female circumcision" that "Male circumcision" be re-established as a separate entry. I would have done this myself if I had known how to terminate what appears to be a redirect to the "Circumcision" entry. This will effectively leave the circumcision entry with only an introduction and any areas of specific gender commonality together with internal links to sub-topics. Some help with removing the redirect will be appreciated. - Robert Brookes 19:48, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Establishment of History of male circumcision as a separate entry
History of male circumcision has been established as a separate entry. I have exported all the relevant stuff to the new entry but left "Origins of male circumcision" in place as it seems to be applicable to both entries. - Robert Brookes 19:54, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I've been following with great apprehension this renewed discussion on circumcision. I'm not going to comment on any other matter at the moment besides nomenclature. "Circumcision", without attribution, refers to what this article is now redundantly calling "Male Cicumcision". It's not logical, it's not equitable, and it's sexist, but it's the way English works. Using "circumcision" to mean "both circumcision and female circumcision" is just a misleading misuse of the language. Nohat 21:12, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I think that creating a separate article for "male circumcision" is completely unnecessary. The word "circumcision" almost universally refers to the circumcision of the penis, so moving all the information related to this practice is not good. Acegikmo1 23:41, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Redirect restored
The redirect from "Male circumcision" has been restored. I am happy to give the current option the best chance of working out. - Robert Brookes 16:40, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The sentence, "In the other English-speaking nations, this is no longer the case." has caused some problems. I think it should be included because it it significant.
The preceeding sentence is, "In the United States, the majority of men are circumcised for medical purposes." Hence, the sentence above states that other English-speaking countries (e.g. Britain) the majority of men used to be circumcised for medical purposes but no longer are. This relates the the following section, "Prevalence of Male Circumcision".
Acegikmo1 16:54, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Because most circumcisions are done for religious or cultural reasons, not medical reasons, it is correct to describe non-therapeutic circumcision as a form of permanent body modification. Non-therapeutic circumcision is the most common form of permanent body modification of the penis. DanBlackham 22:17, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
There is a broad consensus in the medical community as expressed in the official policy statements of national professional medical organizations that the small potential medical benefits of infant circumcision are about equal with the medical risks and harms. Stating the potential medical benefits of circumcision are larger or smaller than the medical risks and harms is POV. DanBlackham 22:17, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Although the majority of male infants in the United States are circumcised by doctors, they are circumcised primarily for cultural or social reasons, not medical reasons. DanBlackham 22:17, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I recently discovered this tempest in a teapot, out of a combination of amusement and dismay at learning that this topic was considered "controversial". (Just so you know where I'm coming from, I was circumcised shortly after birth, and am quite happy with what I've got. If I had a son, I probably wouldn't have him circumcised, but neither would I refuse my consent if his mother wanted it done. If there's a holy war going on here, I think I'm pretty much an agnostic.) I haven't researched the full history of the article, so forgive me if I rehash something, but I do want to offer a few observations from a fresh set of eyes: Tverbeek
(This message was posted by Tverbeek) - Acegikmo1 22:31, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
It appears as if you posted it. Can you explain why? Robert Brookes
I neglected to sign my remarks; Acegikmo1 noticed my oversight and did it to clarify. You're being excessively suspicious, Robert. As for your contribution to NPOV, I'd say that your generally insulting and sometimes hysterical tone in these comments serves to provoke responses and resistance from those you're belittling, and discourages centrists from participating in the process. I know that I don't plan to put up with it for very long; I'm gonna take a crack at a few revisions and then get away. Todd VerBeek
That "gem" I inserted is mathematics: You start with the number of sensory nerve endings in an uncircumcised penis, then you subtract the number of sensory nerve endings in the foreskin that is removed, and you end up with "fewer sensory nerve endings". Do you dispute the comment's factuality? If so, then go stand in line with the Flat Earthers. The purpose of that information in that context is not to argue an opinion, but to explain the scientific basis for anti-circ-ers' claim of greater sensitivity. So it is consistent with NPOV. Your objection is noted, but it is also baseless. Tverbeek
With all due modesty about my own contributions, I think the article in its current form is pretty close to NPOV. The historical background (with its biased selection of facts) is a separate article, and can be tackled separately. The bulk of the information about the anti-circumcision movement (which was not about circumcision per se, and introduced bias by discussing a specific POV) has been removed; a separate article about the movement as a social phenomenon, where copious information about their agenda and arguments would be on-topic and not inherently biasing, would be appropriate I think. There's certainly still room for quibbling, corrections, and such over this article, and I'm sure folks from both lunatic fringes will object to the other's viewpoint still being represented without ridicule. But that just supports the notion that it's close to NPOV. Tverbeek 18:04, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
Editing of Introduction
Reference to ridged band and speculative "sensitivity" deleted to maintain neutrality. It is not acceptable to focus only on male circumcision as this indicates that circumcision is only mentioned so as to criticise the male practice. For the rest editing serves to balance the introduction between male and female circumcision. The subheadings are in need of review and extensive editing and rewriting. Robert Brookes
---
References removed to review
The references were such that would be more inplace on an anti-male circumcision web site. They have been removed with the intent to compile relevant references once the whole article has been reviewed. Robert Brookes
---
External links weeded down ...
Starx wrote: External links weeded down to 7 on each side, though I think that's still too much.
This article is called "circumcision", no? The article should be about male and female circumcision and not a platform for the debate around male circumcision, yes? In an article about the earth would you insist that the "flat earth society" got the right to an equal number of external links? Why?
I suggest that when the entire article is rewritten and restructured and this particular aspect reviewed in detail later on in the process a selection of references and external links can be made. There is little point in keeping any of the references or external links as they now stand. Robert Brookes
*Obviously a complete article on circumcision is going to have to address the debate.
And your comment about the Flat Earth society is absurd. The earth is round, this is a scientific fact that is not disputed by anyone with credibility. The pros and cons of circumcision are disputed by credible people on both sides. Untill that's resolved to a certainty by the medical community the article, in the spirit of NPOV, should try and represent both sides equally. -- Starx 17:18, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
---
Responding to Starx
If you analyse the volumes of trash posted by someone (I suppose it would have to be anti-circumcision) to the circumcision article you can see that the entry is not supposed to be an explanation of circumcision but rather a platform for a anti-circumcision rant. I am sad that this simple fact seems to escape you.
By all means have an entry/article by the title The circumcision debate where the "debate" will be the central point and where each side can have 10kb to state their case, but would it need any more than a passing reference and a link on the circumcision page?
Now a question. For the love of G_d can you explain to me what a link to foreskin.org is doing on the page of the circumcision article? Now I suppose it follows that the entry on "foreskin" should be dominated by coments and links to circumcision sites and issues?
As to absurd comparisons. The comparison with the flat earth society is not as absurd as you may think. It takes a fertile imagination and a joint to turn the humble old mammalian penile sheath into the prime sexual organ of the male. Its off the wall stuff. By all means mention this stuff but for heavens sake keep it in perspective otherwise it is really like demanding the Flat Earth Society is granted equal time at every geography conference. Robert Brookes
Female circumcision
Recent editors of this page have seemed to act under the conception that male circumcision and female circumcision are both forms of circumcision, and therefore should both be the focus of this page. However, it seems to me that circumcision is a modification of the male genitalia, and while some modifications of the female genitalia are sometimes called "female circumcision" by analogy, they are not circumcision.
Therefore, I think this page should contain a sentence in the header that acknolwedges that female genital modification / mutilation is sometimes called female circumcision, provides a link to the article on these practices, and states that this article concerns the removal of the prepuce.
The approach adopted by these recent editors seems aking to writing the article at ship to equally concern oceangoing vessels and lighter-than-air aircraft, on the grounds that the latter can be called airships, or writing the articles at carriage to concern horse-drawn vehicles and automobles, on the grounds that the latter can be called horseless carriages. Shimmin 17:49, Aug 13, 2004 (UTC)
Response to Shimmin
It is not helpful when to dabble in a subject you clearly know little about. Quite clearly there are aspects of female circumcision which are unique as there are aspects of male circumcision. The anti-male circumcision mob hang onto the female circumcision activism (not because they give a jot about what happens to women but) so as to attempt to have some of the respectability of that activism rub off on their own psycho-sexual obsession. 30 odd KB can't do justice to the subjects of both female and male circumcision. It would make sense to then have a "circumcision" page which acknowledges the two, highlights what is common and what is different and the allows interested parties to go to either (or both) a female circumcision or a male circumcision article.
This is the easy part. The difficult part is ensuring the objectivity of the end result. Take a read through the "circumcision" article as it was (and mainly still is) and see what a lack of NPOV and also the lack of factual accuracy means (this is a glaring example). One understands that the “first in” get to decide on what gets posted but eventually sanity must prevail, yes?
Seeing you see only a major difference between male and female circumcision would you like to draft such a paragraph? Robert Brookes
Re-establishment of Male circumcision as a separate entry
I propose that as for the "Female circumcision" that "Male circumcision" be re-established as a separate entry. I would have done this myself if I had known how to terminate what appears to be a redirect to the "Circumcision" entry. This will effectively leave the circumcision entry with only an introduction and any areas of specific gender commonality together with internal links to sub-topics. Some help with removing the redirect will be appreciated. - Robert Brookes 19:48, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Establishment of History of male circumcision as a separate entry
History of male circumcision has been established as a separate entry. I have exported all the relevant stuff to the new entry but left "Origins of male circumcision" in place as it seems to be applicable to both entries. - Robert Brookes 19:54, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I've been following with great apprehension this renewed discussion on circumcision. I'm not going to comment on any other matter at the moment besides nomenclature. "Circumcision", without attribution, refers to what this article is now redundantly calling "Male Cicumcision". It's not logical, it's not equitable, and it's sexist, but it's the way English works. Using "circumcision" to mean "both circumcision and female circumcision" is just a misleading misuse of the language. Nohat 21:12, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I think that creating a separate article for "male circumcision" is completely unnecessary. The word "circumcision" almost universally refers to the circumcision of the penis, so moving all the information related to this practice is not good. Acegikmo1 23:41, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Redirect restored
The redirect from "Male circumcision" has been restored. I am happy to give the current option the best chance of working out. - Robert Brookes 16:40, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The sentence, "In the other English-speaking nations, this is no longer the case." has caused some problems. I think it should be included because it it significant.
The preceeding sentence is, "In the United States, the majority of men are circumcised for medical purposes." Hence, the sentence above states that other English-speaking countries (e.g. Britain) the majority of men used to be circumcised for medical purposes but no longer are. This relates the the following section, "Prevalence of Male Circumcision".
Acegikmo1 16:54, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Because most circumcisions are done for religious or cultural reasons, not medical reasons, it is correct to describe non-therapeutic circumcision as a form of permanent body modification. Non-therapeutic circumcision is the most common form of permanent body modification of the penis. DanBlackham 22:17, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
There is a broad consensus in the medical community as expressed in the official policy statements of national professional medical organizations that the small potential medical benefits of infant circumcision are about equal with the medical risks and harms. Stating the potential medical benefits of circumcision are larger or smaller than the medical risks and harms is POV. DanBlackham 22:17, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Although the majority of male infants in the United States are circumcised by doctors, they are circumcised primarily for cultural or social reasons, not medical reasons. DanBlackham 22:17, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I recently discovered this tempest in a teapot, out of a combination of amusement and dismay at learning that this topic was considered "controversial". (Just so you know where I'm coming from, I was circumcised shortly after birth, and am quite happy with what I've got. If I had a son, I probably wouldn't have him circumcised, but neither would I refuse my consent if his mother wanted it done. If there's a holy war going on here, I think I'm pretty much an agnostic.) I haven't researched the full history of the article, so forgive me if I rehash something, but I do want to offer a few observations from a fresh set of eyes: Tverbeek
(This message was posted by Tverbeek) - Acegikmo1 22:31, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
It appears as if you posted it. Can you explain why? Robert Brookes
I neglected to sign my remarks; Acegikmo1 noticed my oversight and did it to clarify. You're being excessively suspicious, Robert. As for your contribution to NPOV, I'd say that your generally insulting and sometimes hysterical tone in these comments serves to provoke responses and resistance from those you're belittling, and discourages centrists from participating in the process. I know that I don't plan to put up with it for very long; I'm gonna take a crack at a few revisions and then get away. Todd VerBeek
That "gem" I inserted is mathematics: You start with the number of sensory nerve endings in an uncircumcised penis, then you subtract the number of sensory nerve endings in the foreskin that is removed, and you end up with "fewer sensory nerve endings". Do you dispute the comment's factuality? If so, then go stand in line with the Flat Earthers. The purpose of that information in that context is not to argue an opinion, but to explain the scientific basis for anti-circ-ers' claim of greater sensitivity. So it is consistent with NPOV. Your objection is noted, but it is also baseless. Tverbeek
With all due modesty about my own contributions, I think the article in its current form is pretty close to NPOV. The historical background (with its biased selection of facts) is a separate article, and can be tackled separately. The bulk of the information about the anti-circumcision movement (which was not about circumcision per se, and introduced bias by discussing a specific POV) has been removed; a separate article about the movement as a social phenomenon, where copious information about their agenda and arguments would be on-topic and not inherently biasing, would be appropriate I think. There's certainly still room for quibbling, corrections, and such over this article, and I'm sure folks from both lunatic fringes will object to the other's viewpoint still being represented without ridicule. But that just supports the notion that it's close to NPOV. Tverbeek 18:04, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)