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Following the Czechoslovak invasion of Poland in January 1919, the city was divided in 1920 by the Conference of Ambassadors.
Czechoslovakia annexed the land, but "invasion" is too much. Xx236 13:40, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Zaolzie wasn't formally part of Poland, so Czechoslovakia eventually invided Zaolzie but not Poland. Xx236 12:20, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
After first World War there was an agreement between Polish Rada Narodowa Księstwa Cieszyńskiego and Czech Zemskym Narodnim Vyborem pro Slezsko that the part of Duchy of Cieszyn which was ethnically Polish should belong to Poland (76%) and rest (24%) which were more Czechs, the neighbourhood of Frydek and Silesian Ostrawa (the part of Ostrawa to the east of Ostravica river, Silesian Ostrawa was created, if I good remember from villages, one of them was so called Polish Ostrawa). Then in 23 January 1919 the Czechs invasioned that lands. They were stopped under Skoczów. There is a mistic legend in my family that my grandgrandfather fought in that battle ;) So, yes, Zaolzie belonged to Poland from the night between 5 XI 1918 to 28 VII 1920. D T G 10:12, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Why sb add "Citation needed" to that info? Here truly was such an invasion. There were 30 polish prisoners of war killed with bayonets by Czechs, they are planted in Stonawa in Czech Republic. Czechs also dispatched injured captain Haller (brother of Józef Haller). You can go to Cieszyn, Mennicza Street, there is an archive were you can find all needed documents to citate that fact. Maybe it was a small conflict, Czechoslovaks attacked only a small land belonging to Poland ( Cieszyn Silesia - my motherland), I can tell you that here still live people who remember exactly where Czechoslovak army drove, which roads they tooked. However nowadays we have good relationships with Czechs, and for us it's only a history, we must remember it, especially when some Czechs pass over conflict in 1919 and very loudly say about year 1938, and our pact with Hitler (untrue, but what can I do :S), however it is another story. D T G 19:23, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
,'the Cracovians should have been grateful to the Soviet soldiers forever. Instead, they refer to the liberation as "occupation" and sent the Marshal Konev statue back to Russia. Maybe because they were subject to terror of NKVD, had their relatives deported to Gulags, or murdered in Katyn, and endured half of century without freedom and in communist induced poverty When you chose to use such a vehement POV phrasing, please remember that Wikipedia is not a propaganda machine. -- Molobo 10:15, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Davies uses "Czechoslovak invasion of Ciescyn (Těšín)" and I suggest we stick to it. No, I don't think that "Polish invasion of Czechoslovakia" is appropriate unlike "complicity in partitioning of Czechoslovakia". But this would relate to a Cesky Tesin article raher than this one. -- Irpen 01:44, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Is this the same area that Poland invaded and annexed following the Munich Agreement? If it is, could Colonel Beck and Marshal Rydz-Śmigły be that stupid as to take Hitler's bait? Hmm? Dr. Dan 03:52, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
My dear Lysy, a couple of observations about your remarks above. In the article Český Těšín, reference to the Munich agreement is made. Is it wrong? As to your comment "...From the time perspective it seems stupid, even if this was more complicated then..." You know, stupid is, as stupid does. I don't agree that a period in time creates stupidity, anymore than in time, stupidity lessens. Hitler offered the the bait, and they stupidly took it. If fact, it is known that in many countries, Poland was criticized for invading this part of Czechoslovakia. Dr. Dan 16:27, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Urban was also banned from writing in the Communist Poland at a different time. Anyway, read his article at wiki. In any case, I don't see how this is related to what he was writing in this article. Did he misquote the Polish textbooks there? Attacking the speaker instead of disproving him is a known Demagogy#Methods_of_demagogy. -- Irpen 07:04, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Wanted to get back to you, Halibutt, sooner, but Wikipedia was down for a long while today. Now it's late and I probably shouldn't start what I can't finish. No one said Poland was invited to the Munich Conference. I don't know everything discussed by Beck and Hitler, at New Years, 1939, at the Berghof, but I believe I will be able to produce that the Polish minority question in Czechoslovakia was discussed. So, Poland wanted to protect its countrymen, eh? Your quote "wanted to protect the Polish majority living there". Hmm? That's reminiscent of the Soviet explantion of their invasion of Poland on September 17, 1939. If memory serves ME right, this WAS indeed a time of Polish ultimatums not only to Czechoslovakia (which was down and out, betrayed, and abandoned by its allies, friends, and neighbors, as a result of Munich), but other small adjoining countries. The ultimatum to Lithuania in 1938, to resume diplomatic realtions or else, comes to mind. I think that the late Marshal Pilsudski, once gave the Lithuanians, a similar ultimatum some years earlier in Switzerland, but as he had forgotten his limited knowledge of Lithuanian (unlike Narutowicz and his brother), he rather "impressively" delivered it in French. You are entitled to your opinions, and I to mine. The Polish actions regarding this moment in its history were deplorable. Dr. Dan 06:15, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Nope, Soviets admitted they were lying. Here : http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/nazsov/ns073.htm Molotov added that he would present my communication to his Government but he believed that a joint communiqu� was no longer needed; the Soviet Government intended to motivate its procedure as follows: the Polish State had collapsed and no longer existed; therefore all agreements concluded with Poland were void; third powers might try to profit by the chaos which had arisen; the Soviet Union considered itself obligated to intervene to protect its Ukrainian and White Russian brothers and make it possible for these unfortunate people to work in peace. The Soviet Government intended to publicize the above train of thought by the radio, press, etc., immediately after the Red Army had crossed the border, and at the same time communicate it in an official note to the Polish Ambassador here and to all the missions here. Molotov conceded that the projected argument of the Soviet Government contained a note that was jarring to German sensibilities but asked that in view of the difficult situation of the Soviet Government we not let a trifle like this stand in our way. The Soviet Government unfortunately saw no possibility of any other motivation, since the Soviet Union had thus far not concerned itself about the plight of its minorities in Poland and had to justify abroad, in some way or other, its present intervention. -- Molobo 11:42, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
The argument should stop right here. Lysy provided the conclusive evidence by linking us to a university lecture by Anna M. Cieciala. Please refer to her in the future as Hanka, afterall, she uses her diminutive in her email address. BTW, most academics (from my personal experience), have a rather snobbish and condescending attitude towards Wikipedians anyway. Dr. Dan 03:16, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
This might help you-an extensive documentation of the effort. It includes large number of photos as well. http://www.kc-cieszyn.pl/zaolzie1938/zaolzie/ramka4.php?autor=dokumenty&autor2=dokumentymini&idx=47 -- Molobo 11:34, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Simply when Hitler told Lipski that he would annex Sudentland, he also implied that he won't stop at the ethnic line(of German settlement), which made Polish government make demands towards Polish inhabited lines http://www.kc-cieszyn.pl/zaolzie1938/zaolzie/jpg/dokumenty/32b.jpg -- Molobo 11:37, 14 February 2006 (UTC)-- Molobo 11:37, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
They were some small scale skirmishes but not even between soldiers but Polish sponsored militia on minimal scale: http://www.kc-cieszyn.pl/zaolzie1938/zaolzie/jpg/dokumenty/34b.jpg -- Molobo 11:38, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Bzdura, small scale and minimal scale. I'll say it again, Poland's actions were deplorable. Agression and military violence kills, wounds, and destroys whether it's 10 people, or 100,000, people. Its morality has nothing to do with its numbers or scale. And you're always trying to "whitewash" these maters when your nationalist biases are challenged. I'm sorry, but that's my position. Let me quote Churchill from The Gathering Storm, (like you probably, I don't care for him terribly much, but he writes very well), writing about Poland "...In 1938, over a question as minor as Teschen, they sundered themselves from friends in France and Britain and the United States...we see them hurrying, while the might of Germany glowered up against them, to grasp their share of the pillage and ruin of Czechoslovakia." Maybe just maybe thoughts like these crossed his mind at Yalta and Potsdam. Dr. Dan 03:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Please concentrate on the issue and stick to subject. Poland's actions were deplorable.Yes we already know you find Poland deplorable especially when it tries to regain independence, territory or protect its citizens. If you believe Churchill thought about Poland regaining its territory in 1938 that Czechs took during Bolshevik Invasion, at the time of dealing with Soviets, provide scholary sources instead of your POV. -- Molobo 08:24, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Good old Molobo, can always depend on you. "Yes we already know you find Poland deplorable especially when it tries to regain independence, territory or protect its citizens". Yada, yada, yada. When all else fails, try the personal attack. Churchill wrote the statement, not me. That was Churchill's opinion about Poland's annexation of this area. And that my friend is not POV. He is not the only non-Pole, besides myself, who thought or thinks that Poland's actions in this case, were deplorable. You on the other hand, must think that all of Poland's acts of aggression (whenever they occur), are always tied into their desire to regain independence, territory, or protect its citizens. For sure!! Halibutt, please remember that my position has always been, that debate on the discussion page is dfferent than editing the article page. Everybody puts in a lot of personal opinion on the Talk Pages. It doesn't bother me at all. Even when it comes from Molobo. I wish he would tell me where the accent on Molobo should be placed, sometimes. Is it MOlobo, MoLObo, or MoloBO? Dr. Dan 03:16, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Following the Czechoslovak invasion of Poland in January 1919, the city was divided in 1920 by the Conference of Ambassadors.
Czechoslovakia annexed the land, but "invasion" is too much. Xx236 13:40, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Zaolzie wasn't formally part of Poland, so Czechoslovakia eventually invided Zaolzie but not Poland. Xx236 12:20, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
After first World War there was an agreement between Polish Rada Narodowa Księstwa Cieszyńskiego and Czech Zemskym Narodnim Vyborem pro Slezsko that the part of Duchy of Cieszyn which was ethnically Polish should belong to Poland (76%) and rest (24%) which were more Czechs, the neighbourhood of Frydek and Silesian Ostrawa (the part of Ostrawa to the east of Ostravica river, Silesian Ostrawa was created, if I good remember from villages, one of them was so called Polish Ostrawa). Then in 23 January 1919 the Czechs invasioned that lands. They were stopped under Skoczów. There is a mistic legend in my family that my grandgrandfather fought in that battle ;) So, yes, Zaolzie belonged to Poland from the night between 5 XI 1918 to 28 VII 1920. D T G 10:12, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Why sb add "Citation needed" to that info? Here truly was such an invasion. There were 30 polish prisoners of war killed with bayonets by Czechs, they are planted in Stonawa in Czech Republic. Czechs also dispatched injured captain Haller (brother of Józef Haller). You can go to Cieszyn, Mennicza Street, there is an archive were you can find all needed documents to citate that fact. Maybe it was a small conflict, Czechoslovaks attacked only a small land belonging to Poland ( Cieszyn Silesia - my motherland), I can tell you that here still live people who remember exactly where Czechoslovak army drove, which roads they tooked. However nowadays we have good relationships with Czechs, and for us it's only a history, we must remember it, especially when some Czechs pass over conflict in 1919 and very loudly say about year 1938, and our pact with Hitler (untrue, but what can I do :S), however it is another story. D T G 19:23, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
,'the Cracovians should have been grateful to the Soviet soldiers forever. Instead, they refer to the liberation as "occupation" and sent the Marshal Konev statue back to Russia. Maybe because they were subject to terror of NKVD, had their relatives deported to Gulags, or murdered in Katyn, and endured half of century without freedom and in communist induced poverty When you chose to use such a vehement POV phrasing, please remember that Wikipedia is not a propaganda machine. -- Molobo 10:15, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Davies uses "Czechoslovak invasion of Ciescyn (Těšín)" and I suggest we stick to it. No, I don't think that "Polish invasion of Czechoslovakia" is appropriate unlike "complicity in partitioning of Czechoslovakia". But this would relate to a Cesky Tesin article raher than this one. -- Irpen 01:44, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Is this the same area that Poland invaded and annexed following the Munich Agreement? If it is, could Colonel Beck and Marshal Rydz-Śmigły be that stupid as to take Hitler's bait? Hmm? Dr. Dan 03:52, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
My dear Lysy, a couple of observations about your remarks above. In the article Český Těšín, reference to the Munich agreement is made. Is it wrong? As to your comment "...From the time perspective it seems stupid, even if this was more complicated then..." You know, stupid is, as stupid does. I don't agree that a period in time creates stupidity, anymore than in time, stupidity lessens. Hitler offered the the bait, and they stupidly took it. If fact, it is known that in many countries, Poland was criticized for invading this part of Czechoslovakia. Dr. Dan 16:27, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Urban was also banned from writing in the Communist Poland at a different time. Anyway, read his article at wiki. In any case, I don't see how this is related to what he was writing in this article. Did he misquote the Polish textbooks there? Attacking the speaker instead of disproving him is a known Demagogy#Methods_of_demagogy. -- Irpen 07:04, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Wanted to get back to you, Halibutt, sooner, but Wikipedia was down for a long while today. Now it's late and I probably shouldn't start what I can't finish. No one said Poland was invited to the Munich Conference. I don't know everything discussed by Beck and Hitler, at New Years, 1939, at the Berghof, but I believe I will be able to produce that the Polish minority question in Czechoslovakia was discussed. So, Poland wanted to protect its countrymen, eh? Your quote "wanted to protect the Polish majority living there". Hmm? That's reminiscent of the Soviet explantion of their invasion of Poland on September 17, 1939. If memory serves ME right, this WAS indeed a time of Polish ultimatums not only to Czechoslovakia (which was down and out, betrayed, and abandoned by its allies, friends, and neighbors, as a result of Munich), but other small adjoining countries. The ultimatum to Lithuania in 1938, to resume diplomatic realtions or else, comes to mind. I think that the late Marshal Pilsudski, once gave the Lithuanians, a similar ultimatum some years earlier in Switzerland, but as he had forgotten his limited knowledge of Lithuanian (unlike Narutowicz and his brother), he rather "impressively" delivered it in French. You are entitled to your opinions, and I to mine. The Polish actions regarding this moment in its history were deplorable. Dr. Dan 06:15, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Nope, Soviets admitted they were lying. Here : http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/nazsov/ns073.htm Molotov added that he would present my communication to his Government but he believed that a joint communiqu� was no longer needed; the Soviet Government intended to motivate its procedure as follows: the Polish State had collapsed and no longer existed; therefore all agreements concluded with Poland were void; third powers might try to profit by the chaos which had arisen; the Soviet Union considered itself obligated to intervene to protect its Ukrainian and White Russian brothers and make it possible for these unfortunate people to work in peace. The Soviet Government intended to publicize the above train of thought by the radio, press, etc., immediately after the Red Army had crossed the border, and at the same time communicate it in an official note to the Polish Ambassador here and to all the missions here. Molotov conceded that the projected argument of the Soviet Government contained a note that was jarring to German sensibilities but asked that in view of the difficult situation of the Soviet Government we not let a trifle like this stand in our way. The Soviet Government unfortunately saw no possibility of any other motivation, since the Soviet Union had thus far not concerned itself about the plight of its minorities in Poland and had to justify abroad, in some way or other, its present intervention. -- Molobo 11:42, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
The argument should stop right here. Lysy provided the conclusive evidence by linking us to a university lecture by Anna M. Cieciala. Please refer to her in the future as Hanka, afterall, she uses her diminutive in her email address. BTW, most academics (from my personal experience), have a rather snobbish and condescending attitude towards Wikipedians anyway. Dr. Dan 03:16, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
This might help you-an extensive documentation of the effort. It includes large number of photos as well. http://www.kc-cieszyn.pl/zaolzie1938/zaolzie/ramka4.php?autor=dokumenty&autor2=dokumentymini&idx=47 -- Molobo 11:34, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Simply when Hitler told Lipski that he would annex Sudentland, he also implied that he won't stop at the ethnic line(of German settlement), which made Polish government make demands towards Polish inhabited lines http://www.kc-cieszyn.pl/zaolzie1938/zaolzie/jpg/dokumenty/32b.jpg -- Molobo 11:37, 14 February 2006 (UTC)-- Molobo 11:37, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
They were some small scale skirmishes but not even between soldiers but Polish sponsored militia on minimal scale: http://www.kc-cieszyn.pl/zaolzie1938/zaolzie/jpg/dokumenty/34b.jpg -- Molobo 11:38, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Bzdura, small scale and minimal scale. I'll say it again, Poland's actions were deplorable. Agression and military violence kills, wounds, and destroys whether it's 10 people, or 100,000, people. Its morality has nothing to do with its numbers or scale. And you're always trying to "whitewash" these maters when your nationalist biases are challenged. I'm sorry, but that's my position. Let me quote Churchill from The Gathering Storm, (like you probably, I don't care for him terribly much, but he writes very well), writing about Poland "...In 1938, over a question as minor as Teschen, they sundered themselves from friends in France and Britain and the United States...we see them hurrying, while the might of Germany glowered up against them, to grasp their share of the pillage and ruin of Czechoslovakia." Maybe just maybe thoughts like these crossed his mind at Yalta and Potsdam. Dr. Dan 03:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Please concentrate on the issue and stick to subject. Poland's actions were deplorable.Yes we already know you find Poland deplorable especially when it tries to regain independence, territory or protect its citizens. If you believe Churchill thought about Poland regaining its territory in 1938 that Czechs took during Bolshevik Invasion, at the time of dealing with Soviets, provide scholary sources instead of your POV. -- Molobo 08:24, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Good old Molobo, can always depend on you. "Yes we already know you find Poland deplorable especially when it tries to regain independence, territory or protect its citizens". Yada, yada, yada. When all else fails, try the personal attack. Churchill wrote the statement, not me. That was Churchill's opinion about Poland's annexation of this area. And that my friend is not POV. He is not the only non-Pole, besides myself, who thought or thinks that Poland's actions in this case, were deplorable. You on the other hand, must think that all of Poland's acts of aggression (whenever they occur), are always tied into their desire to regain independence, territory, or protect its citizens. For sure!! Halibutt, please remember that my position has always been, that debate on the discussion page is dfferent than editing the article page. Everybody puts in a lot of personal opinion on the Talk Pages. It doesn't bother me at all. Even when it comes from Molobo. I wish he would tell me where the accent on Molobo should be placed, sometimes. Is it MOlobo, MoLObo, or MoloBO? Dr. Dan 03:16, 19 February 2006 (UTC)