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Archive 1 |
It would appear that the simple hangul consonants are used for voiced stops ("bahasa" for bahasa), doubled hangul for tenuis stops ("jjiajjia" for ci'aci'a, "ttellefisi" for telefisi), doubled rieul for /l/ and single rieul for /r/. Not clear how /l/ and /r/ are distinguished word-initially. It would also appear that ieung is being used for glottal stop. The aspirate consonant series is also used. The compound vowel letter e is common, but I can't find simple eo, and I've only found eu before and after r, so I assume this is for Cr sequences like sri and coda r as opposed to coda l. [1] kwami ( talk) 00:32, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
This blog [2] suggests that ㅸ is [v], and that for [f] ㆄ would be needed. But that may be OR; he appears to be assuming that the Middle Korean values hold. "Television" could be either telefisi or televisi, so that does not decide the issue, though assuming a Malay loan would suggest televisi.
Anyone know how "Cia-Cia" is pronounced? Judging by the comment on August 6, 2009, 8:46 pm
here (saying that in some books it was written "Ssia-Ssia"), I would imagine it's something like [sja sja]...but anyway, if anyone can find a reliable source on this, it would be a useful addition.
rʨanaɢ
talk/
contribs 19:15, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
I understand deleting the Hangeul since it was unsourced, but the entire section is unsourced, so I don't see why it was more worthy of deletion. Also note that the transliteration was inferred from the deleted material itself, and is even farther removed from the source (in this case, the Korean Wikipedia apparently). Mo-Al ( talk) 03:09, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
If anyone is near the following libraries, [4] you could check out "Struktur bahasa Cia-cia". Even if you don't read Malay, there's bound to be a list or chart of phonemes, or at least a romanized orthography, that would help with this article, at least with things like knowing whether there is a voiced-tenuis-asp. distinction. However, the chapter in Excursies in Celebes is more widely available, [5] (plus a couple in Germany: [6]) and is perhaps adequate. kwami ( talk) 05:42, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
There are implosives ("bh" and "dh") which are more frequent than plain voiced /b/, /d/. kwami ( talk) 06:04, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
This article [7] gives the beginning of the text as 가까나다타따라마바… Now, there's an 'aspirate' t but no 'aspirate' k, suggesting that 'aspiration' might be used for implosion? Perhaps a transliteration of Roman dh? Unfortunately the p series is incomplete. But these are supposed to be more common than the voiced plosives, whereas in the text they're rare, so it could be the reverse. kwami ( talk) 22:12, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
I've alerady said this in a response to Kwami's question regarding Hangul number spellings, but I feel it's important enough to be repeated here. Kwami asked where did I source the Hangul spelling's of the numbers. The Answer is basically, I didn't as such, but rather I deduced them from the Alphabet given in the main article, the transliteration of the numbers in the article, and that one of the pages from the textbooks shown in the photo slideshow (picture 3/8), shows the consonsants listed. The number five (lima 을리마) written as an example of the spelling of "l". Given the alphabet as listed in the article, and seen in one of the videos, I worked out that the numbers would be spelled thusly:
English | one | two | three | four | five | six | seven | eight | nine | ten |
Cia-cia | 디세 | 루아 | 똘루 | 빠아 | 을리마 | 노오 | 삐쭈 | 활루 | 시우아 | 옴뿔루 |
Romanization | dise | rua | tolu | pa'a | lima | no'o | picu | walu | siua | ompulu |
Runic code ( talk) 13:28, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Okay, this is weird: Abidin, the Cia-Cia teacher whose 3rd-grade class is the pilot project for hangul, has asked the hangul society to send a native Korean teacher to teach hangul, as his Korean isn't good enough. Why would you need to know Korean to teach hangul in your native tongue, any more than you'd need to know Latin to teach the Roman alphabet? Perhaps they have a Korean-language program as well, and the reports just got mixed up. kwami ( talk) 20:58, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Actually, you can see from this slideshow [8] that Abidin is teaching Korean as well, evidently at the local high school. kwami ( talk) 21:02, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
I wonder who exactly made the decision to use hangul script. The references given (from Agence France Presse and the New York Times) seem to indicate that the purpose is primarily to export the Korean script, rather than to empower the local community. In the Indonesian context where only Roman-based (and sometimes Arabic-based) scripts are used, it is difficult to believe that a local community would choose to adopt the Korean script, unless that community was encouraged to do so through foreign-based educational materials, expertise, and funds. It sounds a bit like an instance of modern-day "cultural colonialism"; does anybody have information that would show this not to be the case? -- Molare ( talk) 01:34, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Sounds like some Hangul supremacy propaganda. -- Givesaved ( talk) 02:23, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
The piece states that they will adopt Korean hangul. How many types of hangul are there? Why is the adjective required? This is sort of goofy...and certainly not encyclopedic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.220.193.142 ( talk) 01:04, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
Victor Mair has written an update on the Hangul orthography thing:
It also has links to a few recent news articles. rʨanaɢ talk/ contribs 03:58, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
And another update:
-- pne (talk) 13:30, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
Since Hangul was never adopted or even standardized, it is completely false to list it as the writing system, and there is no point in giving examples written in Hangul. So I took the stuff out.
Benwing ( talk) 23:03, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
I read over the example in the orthography section, and is "뗄레ᄫᅵ시" really how to spell "televisi"? This isn't even properly formed Hangeul. If Cia-cia uses Hangeul letters but with different syllable formation rules, this is worth noting in the text. True ( talk) 17:48, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
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This picture does not have anything to do with the Cia-Cia language. The hangul text is in Korean, it says ko:국립 (national) ko:초등학교 (primary school). You can see those are Korean words not Cia-Cia words. It should be removed from this page for irrelevance. 59.149.124.29 ( talk) 03:37, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
What? I know they're both written in hangul, but it is rather odd having a picture captioned "Korean". I do not know how to speak either language, and so cannot tell it is a or b, but shouldnt this be sorted? Mr anonymous username ( talk) 19:49, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
This source gives a population statistic radically different from Ethnologue's. Mo-Al ( talk) 07:12, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
It would appear that the simple hangul consonants are used for voiced stops ("bahasa" for bahasa), doubled hangul for tenuis stops ("jjiajjia" for ci'aci'a, "ttellefisi" for telefisi), doubled rieul for /l/ and single rieul for /r/. Not clear how /l/ and /r/ are distinguished word-initially. It would also appear that ieung is being used for glottal stop. The aspirate consonant series is also used. The compound vowel letter e is common, but I can't find simple eo, and I've only found eu before and after r, so I assume this is for Cr sequences like sri and coda r as opposed to coda l. [1] kwami ( talk) 00:32, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
This blog [2] suggests that ㅸ is [v], and that for [f] ㆄ would be needed. But that may be OR; he appears to be assuming that the Middle Korean values hold. "Television" could be either telefisi or televisi, so that does not decide the issue, though assuming a Malay loan would suggest televisi.
Anyone know how "Cia-Cia" is pronounced? Judging by the comment on August 6, 2009, 8:46 pm
here (saying that in some books it was written "Ssia-Ssia"), I would imagine it's something like [sja sja]...but anyway, if anyone can find a reliable source on this, it would be a useful addition.
rʨanaɢ
talk/
contribs 19:15, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
I understand deleting the Hangeul since it was unsourced, but the entire section is unsourced, so I don't see why it was more worthy of deletion. Also note that the transliteration was inferred from the deleted material itself, and is even farther removed from the source (in this case, the Korean Wikipedia apparently). Mo-Al ( talk) 03:09, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
If anyone is near the following libraries, [4] you could check out "Struktur bahasa Cia-cia". Even if you don't read Malay, there's bound to be a list or chart of phonemes, or at least a romanized orthography, that would help with this article, at least with things like knowing whether there is a voiced-tenuis-asp. distinction. However, the chapter in Excursies in Celebes is more widely available, [5] (plus a couple in Germany: [6]) and is perhaps adequate. kwami ( talk) 05:42, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
There are implosives ("bh" and "dh") which are more frequent than plain voiced /b/, /d/. kwami ( talk) 06:04, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
This article [7] gives the beginning of the text as 가까나다타따라마바… Now, there's an 'aspirate' t but no 'aspirate' k, suggesting that 'aspiration' might be used for implosion? Perhaps a transliteration of Roman dh? Unfortunately the p series is incomplete. But these are supposed to be more common than the voiced plosives, whereas in the text they're rare, so it could be the reverse. kwami ( talk) 22:12, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
I've alerady said this in a response to Kwami's question regarding Hangul number spellings, but I feel it's important enough to be repeated here. Kwami asked where did I source the Hangul spelling's of the numbers. The Answer is basically, I didn't as such, but rather I deduced them from the Alphabet given in the main article, the transliteration of the numbers in the article, and that one of the pages from the textbooks shown in the photo slideshow (picture 3/8), shows the consonsants listed. The number five (lima 을리마) written as an example of the spelling of "l". Given the alphabet as listed in the article, and seen in one of the videos, I worked out that the numbers would be spelled thusly:
English | one | two | three | four | five | six | seven | eight | nine | ten |
Cia-cia | 디세 | 루아 | 똘루 | 빠아 | 을리마 | 노오 | 삐쭈 | 활루 | 시우아 | 옴뿔루 |
Romanization | dise | rua | tolu | pa'a | lima | no'o | picu | walu | siua | ompulu |
Runic code ( talk) 13:28, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Okay, this is weird: Abidin, the Cia-Cia teacher whose 3rd-grade class is the pilot project for hangul, has asked the hangul society to send a native Korean teacher to teach hangul, as his Korean isn't good enough. Why would you need to know Korean to teach hangul in your native tongue, any more than you'd need to know Latin to teach the Roman alphabet? Perhaps they have a Korean-language program as well, and the reports just got mixed up. kwami ( talk) 20:58, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Actually, you can see from this slideshow [8] that Abidin is teaching Korean as well, evidently at the local high school. kwami ( talk) 21:02, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
I wonder who exactly made the decision to use hangul script. The references given (from Agence France Presse and the New York Times) seem to indicate that the purpose is primarily to export the Korean script, rather than to empower the local community. In the Indonesian context where only Roman-based (and sometimes Arabic-based) scripts are used, it is difficult to believe that a local community would choose to adopt the Korean script, unless that community was encouraged to do so through foreign-based educational materials, expertise, and funds. It sounds a bit like an instance of modern-day "cultural colonialism"; does anybody have information that would show this not to be the case? -- Molare ( talk) 01:34, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Sounds like some Hangul supremacy propaganda. -- Givesaved ( talk) 02:23, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
The piece states that they will adopt Korean hangul. How many types of hangul are there? Why is the adjective required? This is sort of goofy...and certainly not encyclopedic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.220.193.142 ( talk) 01:04, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
Victor Mair has written an update on the Hangul orthography thing:
It also has links to a few recent news articles. rʨanaɢ talk/ contribs 03:58, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
And another update:
-- pne (talk) 13:30, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
Since Hangul was never adopted or even standardized, it is completely false to list it as the writing system, and there is no point in giving examples written in Hangul. So I took the stuff out.
Benwing ( talk) 23:03, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
I read over the example in the orthography section, and is "뗄레ᄫᅵ시" really how to spell "televisi"? This isn't even properly formed Hangeul. If Cia-cia uses Hangeul letters but with different syllable formation rules, this is worth noting in the text. True ( talk) 17:48, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
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This picture does not have anything to do with the Cia-Cia language. The hangul text is in Korean, it says ko:국립 (national) ko:초등학교 (primary school). You can see those are Korean words not Cia-Cia words. It should be removed from this page for irrelevance. 59.149.124.29 ( talk) 03:37, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
What? I know they're both written in hangul, but it is rather odd having a picture captioned "Korean". I do not know how to speak either language, and so cannot tell it is a or b, but shouldnt this be sorted? Mr anonymous username ( talk) 19:49, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
This source gives a population statistic radically different from Ethnologue's. Mo-Al ( talk) 07:12, 10 August 2009 (UTC)