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I dont get it. How is Christianity classified as a monotheistic religion when it has three Gods? Trinity and stuff yet its classified as a monotheism.
Giovanni, as per edit summary, there is no Christian denomination that I know of which believes God and Jesus two be two seperate gods.
Even so, why not in "controversies" mention that Christianity is alleged to be polytheistic, most notably by many Muslims? That would be an appropriate place for it, and as a major world POV, it's something that should be briefly mentioned, perhaps with a link to Isa.
The "self-defined" is rather derisive in tone, and suggests that they are deluding themselves in this regard. Why not, "Christianity (as self-defined) claims to be a so-called "Monotheistic" religion..."? Yes, that's parody on my part, but illustrative of the feeling I get from this phrase. It's too off-key for the intro sentence, which is not meant to provoke cognitive dissonance, but only provide a clear framework for subsequent critical discussion. Timothy Usher 03:09, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Tritheism: There are three Gods, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, against the Trinity. Present day Mormonism is tritheistic
Tritheism is the teaching that the Godhead is really three separate beings forming three separate gods. This erring view is often misplaced by the cults for the doctrine of the Trinity which states that there is but one God in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The doctrine of the trinity is, by definition, monothestic. That is, it is a doctrine that affirms that there is only one God in all the universe.
Tritheism has taken different forms throughout the centuries. In the early church the Christians were accused of being tritheists by those who either refused to understand or could not understand the doctrine of the Trinity. In the late 11th century a Catholic monk of Compiègne in France, Roscelin considered the three Divine Persons as three independent beings and that it could be said they were three gods. He maintained that God the Father and God the Holy Ghost would have become incarnate with God the Son unless there were three gods.
Present day Mormonism is tritheistic -- but with a twist. Mormonism teaches that there are many God's in the universe but they serve and worship only one of them. The godhead for earth is to them really three separate gods: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. The Father used to be a man on another world who brought one of his wives with him to this world - they both have bodies of flesh and bones. The son is a second god who was literally begotten between god the father and his goddess wife. The holy ghost is a third god. Therefore, in reality, Mormonism is polytheistic with a tritheistic emphasis. Giovanni33 03:29, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Tom, Can you please help me understand how is it possible that Jesus be God and still he directs the father as God, says "trust in God, ALSO trust me", prays to God, changes his mind in some cases, learns and does not have the knowledge of the "hour"? I can agree that he was the second most important being in the world, having recieved all the authority in heaven and earth, but yet not God. -- Aminz 04:15, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I need to go now, but let me ask another question which I will be thankful if you could answer. Let's assume that Jesus claimed God is three in one and he told his disciples about this. Shouldn't they ask him to explain these fascinating facts to him? It should have been definitely interesting for them to know. There should be a conversation about it in NT. It should be somewhere where Jesus tells them about the nature of God and tells them that this concept is hard to understand but should have trust in it, or at least he should illuminate his disciples. -- Aminz 04:23, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I added the subject to the Controversies section. I had to mention Egypt again to pull in a parallel, not knowing of another. But if there is a another parallel, feel free to replace it. I think there should be some parallel included to explain the Christian argument. I also have some information from Hall which may do good for another controversy, involving whether God could have a son, based upon God needing to have a mate and procreate in that manner. KV 04:45, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
This concept of God/Godhead and monotheism is one of the great mysteries of those who worship the God of Israel. Gio you had a colorful explanation of what Mormons believe about God, but as a LDS, I would never and have never expressed myself in that fashion. I suspect that churches teach a doctrine and their members easily believe something different. Latter-day Saints (Mormons), IMPO, worship one God, the Father, through His Son, Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is the communicator of God in many ways. Surely He can speak directly do us, his children, but the vast majority of the time it is through the Holy Spirit. I tend to think that I strive to worship the same God that Jesus prayed to in the Garden of Gethsemane. They are one Godhead, though they are three distinct personages. The Nicene Creed, from most theologians with whom I have spoken, is a mystery to understand. I think it is beyond the understanding of most, if not all, people. The Nicene Creed is a product of the 4th century. It strives to instruct its adherents in a way that attempts to provide an understanding of an incomprehensible subject. It is a mystery. They are three, but one. Though I can understand whay Muslims would say that Christians are polytheistic; for them there is one God, end of the story. No need for one to atone for the wages of sin, no need for a sacrifice of the Son of God. Sometimes we need to acknowledge how things look to other people, though we would say things differently and believe differently. Some people say Mormons are polythesitic, to which I disagree, but I understand why they say it. Just as the Bible mentions other gods, Israel worshipped One God. LDS worship One God and the vast majority of Christians worship One God. Saying one "self-defines" or similar statement does not cast dispersions, but is a statement of fact. I can't tell you the numbers of times I have been forced to write that Mormons are self-described as Christians. Is it a pain in backside? You bet. If it is good for the goose, it is good for the gander. Cheers. Storm Rider (talk) 06:43, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I fixed the information, adding citations from reputable sources. The one that gave the most information was an old college textbook done by historians. The other was a book that's bias would only be in apologism for Christians, so I don't see Str having a problem with that book's bias. I of course used the biased source where it is speaking against its bias. This version clarifies orthodoxy and heresy, and the origins of both. And yes, it was the Catholic/Mainstream Christian biased source that told me that Constantine was involved in the debates. I plan on using them more in the persecution section.
There should be no doubt that these authors are better than Str's opinion as far as verifiability goes.
I still need to figure out how this all weaves in to convert it to proper reference format, citebook wasn't cutting it for this. Anyone able to help convert it would be appreciated.
So, you are using biased books (again). I don't like it. I am for serious historical scholarship. Some problems with the new version:
So all in all, you take a passage that needs no improvement (IMHO) and turn it upside down and into a hotch potch of half-baked stuff. For those who want to see the diff nonetheless, here it is: [2] In German we call this "Verschlimmbessern" (roughly: Im-worse-prove). Str1977 (smile back) 19:39, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Not cornered at all. I have stated my case and stick to it. Str1977 (smile back) 20:25, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
KV, it would be helpful to go ahead and name the policies. While I think KV's version is somewhere between misleading and inaccurate, KV is right to ask for a citation or three to the contrary. It won't be hard to find, but it needs to be added before the whole thing is fixed. However, it would also help to clarify that by "one creed" we mean a general "shared set of beliefs" rather than a specific creed with a specific text, like the Nicene or Apostles' Creed.
KV wrote above, For example, there was a shared creed that Jesus had come, taught, was crucified, buried, and raised again. However, some people like the Arians thought that Jesus was fully mortal and not at all divine. Others like the Gnostics preferred other gospels than the proto-Catholics. Some believed that Judas betrayed Jesus, others that Jesus asked Judas to turn him in. Some believed that Mary Magdeleine was Jesus' wife and closest apostle, whereas most didn't believe her an apostle at all, and Jesus celibate. All of this without disagreeing with the basic creed described above. I suggest we use the scholars in this area, and not your own personal opinion. KV
These gnostics do not all agree that Jesus "came, taught, was crucified, buried, and raised again." The Arians thought that Jesus was a highly exalted being created near the beginning of time by God, but not God himself. Regarding those who believed that Jesus asked Judas to turn him in, the Gospel of Judas doesn't record any events after Jesus' arrest. It earlier suggests that Jesus needed to die on the Cross to be free of his physical body, so it's unlikely that this group would have believed in a bodily resurrection, as that would have been a reimprisonment to them. The same is true of many of the gnostics; they would have supported perhaps a spiritual resurrection, but not a physical one. Suggesting the resurrection was only spiritual, was the gnostics' attempt to adapt Christianity and make it more palatable to their listeners. Most Christians did and do include Mary Magdalene as an apostle, calling her and the other first witnesses to the resurrection the "apostles to the apostles." As Str said, belief that she was Jesus' wife or lover is a very modern idea not found in antiquity, despite Gnostic accounts of her having received other "secret teachings." This is pretty basic stuff. I'll try to get sources soon, if no one beats me to it. Wesley 16:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Mediation procedures have begun. Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2006-05-15_Christianity
I suppose we'll have to finish discussing this there. KV 18:13, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Giovanni33, re your change: "Christianity began within the Jewish religion among those who claimed to be followers of Jesus of Nazareth". Is there any basis for doubt in this regard? It sounds scare-quotey and snarky, without adding anything useful. Timothy Usher 18:58, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
If everything is in doubt because the historical sources are questioned then the sentence should read "Christianity claimed to begin within those who claimed to be part of the Jewish religion among those who claimed to be followers of the person who claimed to be Jesus of Nazareth" XXX
Dear whoever, that's a big "if" - the historical sources are not questioned in the way you think. Str1977 (smile back) 13:12, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I think whether or not Christianity is monotheistic, or whether any religion can be other than monotheistic, is better discussed in context at monotheism. Tom Harrison Talk 23:53, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Drogo, your sentence, "According to some Moslems, Christianity is a polytheistic religion which worships three false gods", aside from being wildly misplaced (the actual Muslim point of view is represented further in the article), is inaccurate: Muslims do *not* hold that the Christian God is a false God, only that Christians shouldn't worship Jesus or Mary alongside him. The Holy Spirit doesn't come up, so it's unclear what the Islamic position would be - I'd guess that it'd be that this is just God.
It is likewise false to state that Christians belief that there is more than one god. As monotheism is defined as the belief in one God, there should be no debate here. The prevailing belief is that Jesus is God, not that he is another God - in fact, I've never heard anyone propose the latter.
Suppose we have a branch of Islam which holds that the Black Stone is God. Are they now polytheists, in that they worship both God and the Black Stone? By the logic you've advanced here, they would be: 1) The black stone isn't really God 2) such that they worship two entities, not one as they believe 3) hence they are polytheistic. There are many more possible, increasingly ridiculous-sounding examples. Ultimately, your re-definition of monotheism requires us to decide what God is to determine when the use of the term is appropriate without hedging, which is beyond the scope of our mission (and, I'd add, our expertise) here on wikipedia. Timothy Usher 03:21, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
According to the Qur'an, Christians have strayed from strict monotheism. Moslems believe that Christianity is not a monotheistic religion. Drogo Underburrow 05:11, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I think it is becoming apparent that saying Xty IS monotheistic is POV. The easiest solution is to just drop the word from the description in the intro & later on mention that Xns view Xty as monotheistic, while others do not -- JimWae 05:14, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
After a bit of edit warring I made a simple edit that states "most Christians believe firmly they are monotheistic". This sentence is very choppy; however, this introduction has taken uncounted hours of negotation to get to where it was. I find it silly that because Islam disputes Christain claims to monotheism that we now have to bend over backwards to take care of another religions concerns in an article about Christianity. Surely readers will assume that an article on Christianity will understand that the article is about Christian beliefs and is not taking a side. This kind of dispute is best handled later in the article. Now having said the above, I still find it acceptable to clarify in the article that Christians believe...x, y, and z.
I have also requested the edit war participants to refrain from further edits and focus on gaining concensus on the discussion page. Let's make this a simple issue and not complicate it any further. Storm Rider (talk) 07:20, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I have to agree with Drogo. Islam generally believes that Christianity is not monotheistic, and there are non-religious observers who, noting the trinity, Virgin Mary, and the countless saints and angels, agree. To say that Christianity is monotheistic is as POV as insisting that Jesus was the son of God and not just the prophet who preceded the final prophet, Mohammed. It's not up to us to weigh in on whether Christianity or Islam is correct on doctrinal matters such as these, just to report them neutrally.
Timothy and Homestarmy, you both want to re-write the basic rules that Wikipedia operates under, and that is not allowed. Wikipedia has a method of solving this problem, and its called NPOV for short. You can either read it and learn it and support it, or you force us to explain it to you here on the talk page. I promise you, if you read, knew, and supported NPOV, we would not be having any discussion, the issue would magically go away. Drogo Underburrow 16:32, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Look, this issue is not as complicated as both of you, Timothy and Homestarmy are trying to make it out to be.
The bottom line is that the rules here prohibit us from writing in an article that "Christianity is monotheistic" Here is why:
1. Christians believe that Christianity is monotheistic. 2. Muslims believe that Christianity isn't monotheistic.
The two groups do not agree. Are you with me so far? Is this not all perfectly clear and factual so far?
3. Saying "Christianity IS monotheistic" is saying that the Christians are right and the Muslims are wrong. The Muslims say its not, and the sentence says it is, and its contradicting them, therefore they are wrong, according to the article.
4. NPOV says we can't say that. We can't take sides, no matter how badly you want to say that Christians are right, no matter how firmly you believe that they are right, its not allowed.
Christians believe that Christianity is monotheistic. - This is the fact that Muslims and Christians can both agree on, and can go in the article.
Christianity is monotheistic. - This is a statement that Muslims and Christians do not agree on, and hence cannot be treated as a fact, and cannot go in the article.
It's really simple, and has nothing to do with Tom Cruise.
Its called NPOV, you might want to read up on it sometime, and spare us the trouble of having to explain at length the basic rules over and over.
Bringing up Scientology does not change the above. Attempts to confuse the issue will not work. - Drogo Underburrow 17:11, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
"Why does the Islam article state that Islam is monotheistic?" I don't know. If you object, do it on their talk page, not here.
"I don't know of any church where you'll ever hear anyone worship a plurality of Gods." - So what?
"I also don't know of a single variety of Bible ...that does not state that God is the only God." - So what? Just because the Bible says something, does not mean Muslims cannot dispute what it says. When significant numbers of people dispute things, NPOV prohibits us from saying one side is right.
"Christianity is almost compleatly(sic) based on either the Bible or a Church's practices ....and either way you slice it, it is clearly monotheistic." - So you say. Muslims disagree. NPOV says the article can't choose sides.
"This is not New Agepedia, if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and sounds like a duck, its a duck." - Unless a significant body of people disagree, and call it a sheep. In which case, we are not allowed to say, "Its a duck", we can only say, 'Group X thinks it is a duck."
This is not my opinion. I'm simply applying the NPOV rules. You could do the same for yourself if you would only take the time to learn them and decide they apply instead of whatever rules you make up yourself, and then we could discuss much more complex things to make the article better and not dwell on this basic stuff. But if we do not agree on the basic stuff, there is nothing at all we can agree on, since we arn't playing by the same rules. If one team thinks its baseball, they can't play if the other team insists on using a football. - Drogo Underburrow 17:55, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
“If you were to ask any of a billion Muslims if they thought Christians worshiped only one god, their answer would be "no"”...“The Muslims say its not”...
You cannot speak for all Muslims, Drogo (indeed, I doubt if you could even speak for one). You need a reputable scholarly source, for starters.
“We can't take sides, no matter how badly you want to say that Christians are right, no matter how firmly you believe that they are right, its not allowed.”
Sorry, but there is a line that we draw when it comes to basic findings of fact as related to dictionary definitions.
What Muslims who believe this are simply misinformed. It is also a common belief among Christians that Allah is not the same as God. In both cases, we cannot be hedging indisputable facts with prejudice and ignorance. It is the job of wikipedia to inform. WP:NPOV must not be construed in such a way as to compromise encyclopedicity. The mere fact that something is widely believed does not in itself merit equal inclusion. Sometimes it’s enough to inform the reader that a certain opinion exists.
“So, its wrong to say "Christianity IS monotheistic" which says that Muslims are wrong.”
No wronger that it is to give the approximate age of the Earth, which says that creationists are wrong. You need a reputable scholarly source which says not just that many Muslims believe Christianity to be polytheistic, which would warrant only a statement to that effect (which we already have), but one which advances the opinion that Christianity actually is polytheistic. Timothy Usher 17:58, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
You insist on a source that says Moslems object? I'm not suggesting that the article say that Muslims object. I'm only suggesting that it say that Christians say that Christianity is monotheistic. My reason is that Moslems object. I don't need a source for this, its not going in the article, I am just asserting it. Are you seriously arguing that they don't? That would be very argumentive of you, arguing just to argue. But, if you truly doubt that more than a few Moslems feel that Christianity is not monotheistic, I won't debate you. Instead, I will insist that you entirely remove all mention of monotheism from the article unless every sentence on the topic is sourced and attributed, as required under the WP:Verify policy.
"Sorry, but there is a line that we draw when it comes to basic findings of fact as related to dictionary definitions" - it doesn't say that in the policy pages, and you can't make up your own rules. It makes no difference anyway. If significant numbers of people do not believe something that is defined in a dictionary, then NPOV requires we deal with their POV.
"What Muslims who believe this are simply misinformed." - it doesn't matter, the issue is not wether they are right, but whether they believe something.
" WP:NPOV must not be construed in such a way as to compromise encyclopedicity." - Another rule you just made up? Show me where it says this in the policy pages.
"The mere fact that something is widely believed does not in itself merit equal inclusion." No one is asking for equal inclusion. The point is one cannot say that the side is wrong. Drogo Underburrow 18:26, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
It is unfortunate to have this type of discussion and have Myopic make edits without gaining concensus. I would request that all editors stop editing the intro until we have come to a conclusion. The proposal on the table is to edit the first paragraph to read, in some way or form, that Christians believe in a monotheistic concept of God. The operative term is believe, the rest of the sentence can be changed.
Also, it does not help to bring up other articles and how they are written. Believe me, the same standards are meant to apply to every article and some just "get it" sooner than others. As a LDS this has long been a thorn in my side as other Christians insist on telling me what I believe; it is not fun, but it is part of the game we play here at WIKI.
The concept of monotheism is so fundamental to Christianity that it is a bit boggling that it should be clarified. However, the simple change mentioned above will ensure that we meet all standards of NPOV however silly we sometimes apply the rules. Enough said. Storm Rider (talk) 18:38, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to go into what others' have said and simply state my view:
Two more points:
Can someone say exactly what this means? I'd like to adjust the writing but don't want to change the meaning. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I think it's simply saying that within Christian scriptures, the first reference to the term "Christian" is in Acts. — Aiden 23:04, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, I think the reference is the passage in Acts, which says that the name Christians was first coined in Antioch. It was not coined when this passage was written (and Paul's letters - which might or might not include the term) preceded Acts) but this passage reports on this. Str1977 (smile back) 14:31, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Do any reliable sources describe Christianity as other than monotheistic? Tom Harrison Talk 19:00, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Christianity is religion centered on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, known by Christians as Jesus Christ, as recounted in the New Testament. Generally it is thought of by Christians as monotheistic, though some ancient sects were not and some critics, most notably Muslims accuse it of being polytheistic.
This is more specific. but I don't really like it much. - Drogo Underburrow 20:04, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Let's try to leave the attacks and 'but some people say' stuff until at least after the introduction. All Christians consider the religion monotheistic (the number of exceptions is trivial). The fact that some outspoken members of other religions think differently is worth mentioning, but not in the intro. We shouldn't include what is said by a minority critics in the intro. I can find sources who call Islam "Satanic" but I wouldn't put it in the intro to Islam. (I wouldn't put it in the article at all in fact, but there you go). DJ Clayworth 14:24, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
And those Christians who disagree AFAIK reject the Trinity rather than the monotheistic character of their religion, e.g. Unitarians. Str1977 (smile back) 14:28, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I have made a version with changes in the first paragraph (minimal) and added information in Monotheism under Beliefs. If this is accepted, we can pull it out of controversies.
I am unable to find so far any sourced references to Islam viewing Christianity as not monotheistic. Pecher Talk 17:54, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I looked at the current link, and the site is hosted by "The Sabr Foundation" which says it "is a not-for-profit educational and religious foundation." How is that not reputable?
The term "Abrahamic religion" carries with it a very strong POV. Christians do not ususally consider teir religion to be an "Abrahamic" one; to be more, Christian theology does not recognize any relationship to Islam. Furthermore, Judaism does not recognize any special relationship with either Christianity or Islam, considering them man-made religions alongside Buddhism, Hinduism, and everything else. Only in Islam can we find the view that these three religions share a common root in the faith of Abraham. I'm not sure about the views of the majority of contemporary scholars of religion, but I did not see any references in this article as to who among the scholars calls Christianity an "Abrahamic religion". Pecher Talk 18:15, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I do not see this as a NPOV issue at all, however the way the sentence is currently phrased is a little weasely: Christianity is considered an Abrahamic religion. This naturally raises the question "by whom"? I think if we can state who consideres Christianity an Abrahamic religion, we can fix the POV issues right then and there. Personally, I would remove the phrase "considered", but apparently there is at least one person (maybe more?) who disagree with this claim. Therefore, the easiest fix is to simply state who is making the claim, either by qualifying the sentence, or adding a citation.-- Andrew c 22:47, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
This page was apparently deleted at some point. AnnH apparently ended up restoring it. I'm only stating this since I notice it's not showing up on my watchlist, so people will now know that it has been edited. Top of your watchlist now...
Why is there a 'citation needed' tag on the clause stating the term 'Christian' is first used in the New Testament in Acts 11:26? Maybe I'm missing something. The clause links directly to the verse. This verse is the first mention in the New Testament of the term. See here. — Aiden 22:20, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Christianity is a religion centered on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, as recounted in the New Testament. Most Christians believe Jesus to be divine, one of three persons in a triune God, and refer to him as Jesus Christ. With an estimated 2.1 billion adherents in 2001, Christianity is the world's largest religion. [1]
Timothy Usher, I'd like to briefly explain why I felt it necessary to revert most of your changes. The main issue here is monotheism. Christians see themselves as monotheistic, and it would be POV for us to say otherwise. We must report what Christians believe about their own religion. However, we cannot decide whether these beliefs are true. It is a common belief among Muslims that Christianity falls short of true monotheism because they worship a mortal prophet -- Jesus -- as a god. Yes, I realize that trinitarianism says that God is one entity with three aspects, but this is clearly not accepted by Muslims. Who's right? Who cares?! We just report both sides. Given the number of Muslims out there, I hardly think they qualify as a minor view. They deserve a sentence or two, no?
Now, I encourage you to hash this issue out fully in Talk before making any edits at all that involve these topics. This will avoid an edit war. Thank you for understanding. Al 03:11, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
"no matter how much you claim that the Trinity is One God, it still mixes a human being (Jesus) with God, and thus results in worshiping either a deified human being (Jesus as God) or a micro-god (God with Jesus's human characteristics) and this is not monotheism. You are worshiping a false image not the real God."[ [6]
christianity
n 1: a monotheistic system of beliefs and practices based on the Old Testament and the teachings of Jesus as embodied in the New Testament and emphasizing the role of Jesus as savior.
Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University
I'm sorry, but you're simply mistaken. Even if Christians define their religion as monotheistic, it is not up to us to support or deny this claim: we just report it.
Oh, and note that many definitions of Christianity somehow manage not to mention monotheism, so your point is diminished even on its own terms. For example:
The bottom line is that it is as POV to assert that Christianity is in fact monotheistic as it would be to assert that Islam is in fact wrong. THat's because the former necessitates the latter. Al 04:38, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Replacing www.islamic.org.uk with www.muhammad.net is not adequate. We need reputable scholarly sources, not religious pamphleteering. This is because WP:NPOV does not include the ignorant point of view, which I allege is all this is. Show me an acknlowledged academic expert on Christianity who is claiming that Christianity is polytheistic. Then, we have something. Now, all we have is misunderstanding which believe it or not, despite WP:NPOV, doesn't count. That is why we have WP:V.
Also, Alienus, your allegations of "edit-warring" (in your edit summary), like charges you've put to other editors since your last unblock, is unwarranted, as I've been a regular contributor to this talk page, and have discussed this issue extensively above. Timothy Usher 03:17, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
No one is trying to prove that Christianity is polytheistic. That would be as silly as trying to prove it is monotheistic. There are no proofs of these ideas. This is not science, and we are not dealing with facts. That is why it is wrong of you to make the claim "Christianity is monotheistic". Its not. It says it is, and various scholars say it is, and that is all one can say about it. However, a lot of people, particularly Muslims, feel Christianity is not monotheistic, not in the sense that Islam is. Would you dispute that Muslims do not believe that the dogma of the Trinity is true? In that case, you have 1.2 billion people who object to your saying that the dogma of the Trinity is a fact and therefore Christianity is monotheistic. But that is in fact why Christianity is considered by its adherants as monotheism. Drogo Underburrow 03:59, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Can someone come to a count on Aiden's reverts, it seems in the past 24 hours he's done at least 5 without me counting. I have to get to bed, so I can't do this right now.
I'm going to do something which might be rare here; I'd be curious to know other examples of it here on Wikipedia. What I'm going to do, is change my mind, and state that the opposition has convinced me that they are correct and I am wrong. I've argued very long and hard; now I've decided I was wrong. I now believe that its ok to state as a fact, that Christianity is monotheistic. Here's why I have changed my mind.
Timothy Usher has convinced me, it IS a matter of dictionary definitions, and my understanding of the meaning of "monotheistic" was wrong. Monotheism means to believe that God is one; it doesn't mean that God really is one. So, the mere fact that Christians profess that God is one, makes their religion monotheistic by definition. It doesn't matter if their reason for so believing is wrong. It doesn't matter if others think they are nuts. The only thing that counts, under the definition of monotheism, is for Christians to believe that God is one. I believe that Christians honestly do believe that. Therefore, its ok to state, "Christianity is monotheistic", as this means exactly the same thing as saying, "Christians believe that Jesus, The Holy Spirit, and the Father, are all one God." (or however they want to say it, I'm not 100% on their wording.
Its not POV to say "Christianity is monotheistic" because this IS saying that Christians believe in one God". It is not saying, "Only one God exists", nor is it saying that Christians are right to believe so. It is is simply stating what Christians believe, a point I was not aware of. Now, the only way "Christianity is monotheistic" would violate NPOV, is if other people believed that Christians were liars, and secretly believed that God was not one. If Muslims claim that Christians really believe that God isn't one, then the claim that Christianity is monotheistic becomes again a POV I don't think anyone makes that argument, but if they do, I will again have to rethink my opinion here. But Muslims simply think that Christians only think they believe in one God, but actually are believing in three gods. Am I right about this? On this revolves the whole issue, as it is the Muslim belief that really determines whether it is NPOV to state that "Christianity is monotheistic".
That is, because we only can state that as a fact if there is no one who believes otherwise; if any significant group of people, like 1.2 billion Muslims, believe that Christians don't believe in one God, are lying and secretly worship three gods, then we can't state it as a fact. Its my impression that Moslems do not assert that Christians are liars and secretly worship three Gods. What Moslems assert is that while Christians profess to believe in one God, they actually worship three. But that's ok, as long as Christians honestly profess a belief in one God, even if their dogma makes no sense, they have met the definition of monotheism, which is about belief only.
Congratulations, Timothy, you've convinced me. I hope you will think more kindly of me after this. Drogo Underburrow 04:49, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
What group disputes the statement that Christianity is a monotheistic religion? Drogo Underburrow 06:57, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Where is monotheism defined as "a religion with just one god"? I think its defined in terms of belief, not in terms of facts such as you just stated. I don't have access to good dictionaries, so I'm asking. Drogo Underburrow 07:07, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Christianity is a monotheistic religion means the same as saying "Christians believe in one god". Drogo Underburrow 07:14, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
My edit-conflicted post is remarkably like Drogo's: what you call "believing in monotheism" is by definition monotheism. Timothy Usher 07:19, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Agree. One dictionary definition of monotheism is "The doctrine or belief that there is only one God". So if Christians have a doctrine that there is only one God, but in practice believe that there are three or even more gods (i.e. by praying to the Virgin Mary), then its not so clear that Christianity is monotheistic. Why not leave such hair-splitting issues to the body of the article where they can be covered, and simply omit the word "monotheism" from the intro? Drogo Underburrow 08:25, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Kudos to Drogo for changing his mind, which is not an easy thing to do under these circumstances. DJ Clayworth 14:47, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
The Oxford English Dictionary gives the following definitions:
Note that it's not defined as "the belief that one believes in and worships one God".
Now I don't think there can be any question that Christian Churches teach that there is one God, or that Christians believe there is one God. The POV is not whether Christians believe that there is one God (it's a fact that they do); the POV is whether or not it is logical or reasonable for them to believe there is one God when they believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
The very first words in the ancient Nicene Creed are Credo in unum Deum — I believe in one God. The (also ancient) Athanasian Creed says something like "So is the Father God, the Son God, and the Holy Ghost God. And yet they are not three gods but One God." I think we're getting confused about whether the issue is whether Christianity teaches that there is one God (which it does, and which is what monotheism means) or whether it's logical for them to teach that when they recognize Three Persons as One God. Even Moslems, if they doubt the logic of the Christian position, cannot deny that Christianity teaches that there is one God.
If I state officially that my bedroom wallpaper is pink, and then elaborate on it so that you realize I think the colour is a mixture of blue and yellow, you can then say that my wallpaper is green, or that I'm crazy to say that it's pink, but you cannot deny that I state officially that it is pink. (Not that I'd want to imply that the doctrine of the Trinity is as crazy as thinking that blue and yellow make pink — but just giving an example that for you to acknowledge that I officially say something does not mean that you have to think it makes sense.)
In my view, to challenge the monotheistic nature of Christianity based on Islamic belief that Christians can't really believe in one God is a little bit like denying the theistic nature of Christianity based on atheists' belief that there is no God, so Christians can't really be worshipping Him — it's not a theistic religion, because although they think they worship a God, they don't really, since there is no God for them to worship.
Ask any Christian priest or theologian or peasant or seven-year-old child from a catechism class "how many Gods are there", and you will always get the same answer — "one". Because that is what Chrisianity teaches. I stress again that monotheism is not the belief that one believes in one God: it is the belief that there is one God, without reference to whether or not the believer can logically hold that belief in combination with his or her other beliefs. AnnH ♫ 13:22, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
If you read the 'Martyrdom of Polycarp', you'll see that after his arrest, the Romans accused Polycarp and Christians in general of atheism because he refused to worship the Roman gods; so at the coliseum, they asked him to recant by saying "Away with the atheists!" He said the words, but gestured towards the crowd as he did so, meaning that he considered the Roman public atheists because they didn't believe in the god of Christianity. So 'atheism' at least used to be used to mean disbelief in a particular god or pantheon.
Are the claims against Christianity's monotheism really claims that Christians don't believe or teach there is one god? Do we have anything that demonstrates that Islam in general thinks Christianity believes in many gods, or just some outspoken apologists? Wesley 16:50, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
OK, so I made up the term as a tip to Ockam's Razor!
This whole discussion is very nice, but the WP:CITE, WP:V and WP:NOR policies require all this to be documented. So, folks, everything should be sustaiable from legitimate sources. Who's got them? -- CTSWyneken 10:40, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
This whole discussion is rather silly. Monotheism is defined as "belief in one God." Christians believe in one God, and that makes Christianity monotheistic. The only arguments I've seen against this statement is that Christianity is not monothestic by the standards of Islam or Judaism. All that means is that Christian beliefs are different from Islamic beliefs and Judaic beliefs, which should be a no-brainer since they are today distinct religions.
Is Judaism monotheistic? Yet the Qur'an states that Judaism strayed from monotheism: "The Jews call Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Jesus the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!" (Qu'ran 9:30). Uzair=Ezra. Are we then to favor the Islamic view of Judaism over Judaic beliefs? Or, if we prefer to say that religious Jews believe what Judaism teaches, should not the same be said of Christianity? To do otherwise would be to exercise a double standard and violate WP:NPOV.
For that matter, Wikipedia lists
Zoroastrianism as a monotheistic faith. Zorastrianism (mostly) worships acknowledges two gods, the good Ahura Mazda and the evil Angra Mainyu; I recently discovered that some Zoroastrians worship a third god, the neutral
Zurvan, who is the father of both. AFAIK Zoroastrianism makes no claim that these three persons are of one substance, or are otherwise united in one God. If Wikipedia is to list Zoroasrianism as a monotheistic faith, without qualifiers, shouldn't Wikipedia do the same for Christianity? To do otherwise would be to exercise a double standard, and violate both WP:NPOV and
WP:NOR.
Arch O. La
Grigory
Deepdelver
13:25, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
KV explained why Zoroastrianism is a monotheistic faith. It occurs to me that Zoroastrians would consider bitheism to be a misunderstanding of their religion, just as Christians consider tritheism to be a misunderstanding of our religion. It would solve the double standard to say that outsiders sometimes consider Zoroastrianism to be bitheistic rather than monotheistic, although I wonder if Zoroastrians might consider that to be an attack on their religion?
Closer to home, I think the real issue is that use of the word "person" (persona in Latin) can lead to confusion. The term used in Greek, hypostasis, has a more specific meaning. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 15:54, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
After a quick scan on Google books, I've listed a few sources on Zoroastrianism as dualism and/or ditheism. One source in particular lists these labels as Islamic and Christian misunderstandings of Zoroastrianism. By the same standard, I assert that labeling Christianity as tritheistic is a misunderstanding of the trinity. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 16:31, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm reposting this here in case people don't see it far far above (I had no idea the talk page had gotten so long!):
I apologize to Kash again, as I did on that other page. My main point was that a single standard should apply to the term "monotheism," and beyond that to any term used in comparative religion. However, if it's a misunderstanding to call Zoroastrianism bitheism, it is a similar misunderstanding to call Christianity tritheism. As Kash says, it call comes down to the oneness of God. By that standard, both Zoroastrianism and Christianity are monotheism, even though we have different understandings of God. Ditto Judaism, Samaritanism and Islam. More specifically, Trinitarian Christians believe in three members (or persons or hypostases) in one God, which is still monotheism but is different from the views of the other religions. Fishhead64 also has good points about the appropriate place for some of this discussion. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 17:57, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
PS: I should clarify that I am not pushing a pro-Christian POV; I am merely asking for equal treatment. Misunderstanding or not, we can certainly say that such claims have been made (and cite who) against both religions. So yes, Christians profess monotheism, others may not agree that we are monotheistic. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 18:06, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm not exactly sure why Christianity needs to define itself against Zoroastrianism, or why it was necessary to pull Zoroastrianism into the equation, but I've been asked for my opinion, so here goes:
Addressing some of the points made by others:
-- Fullstop 11:56, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Authoritative about what? The Pope can speak authoritatively of what Christians believe. He can insist, for example, that Christianity is monotheistic, and we should certainly include this, properly cited. Any imam, for example, can speak authoritatively about what Muslims believe about Christianity, even if it is that Christians are not true monotheists, and we should include this, too. Having included both, it would be biased to assert that the Pope is right and that imam is wrong. The issue of what constitutes monotheism is a subtle one, depending both on what status is ascribed to Jesus and on what the minimum requirements for godhood are. These are too subtle for us to rule on using our own authority. Al 15:18, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Since Aiden or Pecher, one of the two, simply undid it without thought or comment. I'd like to see what others think of the version I made to solve this dillema.
(Partially copied from above.) It's not a matter of being "generally seen"; it's a matter of definition. The debate over the Trinity being one or three Gods is irrelevent and let me tell you why: Those who do not believe in the Trinity content there is only one God. Those who do believe in the Trinity still content there is only one God. (Refer to any Christian creed or text for confirmation.) By definition of monotheism--"The doctrine or belief that there is only one God"--both groups are monotheist. It is not a matter or who is right or wrong, it is a matter of the English language. Notice the definition says nothing about facts but simply doctrine of belief. Every single Christian group--and I challenge you to prove otherwise--believes there exists only one God. Thus, by definition, all Christian groups are monotheist.
I really don't see why we have to qualify something that by definition is what it says it is. While Islam contents Christians believe in three Gods, Christians none the less believe that there is only one. There is a difference and the latter determines what consitutes monotheism. It seems to me to be a big double standard that people are so adamant about qualifying everything Christianity says about its own beliefs but I don't see this happening anywhere else. There is no reason why we should have to say "generally considered". — Aiden 19:08, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I think the reason is that while Christians say they believe in one god, editors think that a significant group is of the opinion that Christians do not believe in one god. The definition in many dictionaries is not "Those who profess to believe" but "those who believe". Drogo Underburrow 23:38, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
mon·o·the·ism
The doctrine or belief that there is only one God.
Most dictionaries say "belief that there is one God" not "belief in one God." Some Muslims might believe Christians believe in three Gods, but think they're one. However, the definition only requires belief that there is only one God. Christians believe there is only one God. Whether or not they're right, and whether or not the one God they believe in is actually three is irrelevent. Christianity is by definition monotheistic. No Christian believes there are three Gods. — Aiden 00:28, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
"Every single Christian group--and I challenge you to prove otherwise--believes there exists only one God" I can prove otherwise very quickly, and that is mentioning the Cainites. The Cainites believed that there were several gods, and that the god of the old testament was not the same, and actually was evil btw, as the god who created the world and sent Jesus.
Now, Christians believe in A) God the Father, B) God the Son, and C) God the Holy Spirit. I do not see any evidence that Christians even thought that these three were one originally. I placed a fact tag AFTER monotheistic and still no one bothered to provide a reference, my demand for a citation was simply deleted. Now, Christians had no problem telling the Northern Pagans that they were worshipping Satan, which was their POV on the matter. Now, if Muslims think that Christians worship three god, that is equally their POV on the matter. And according to NPOV policy, we have to cover it all.
Now, no one has made much of a fuss about my actual version, it's been the same debate other than a claim that a comma missing. Now, let me tell you what's good about this version, that you should try to see. It does cover both sides, it gives the benefit of the doubt to Christianity, and it explains the nature of the debate. It expands the knowledge of the reader. That is why it is great, you have a large amount of evidence that the Muslims are wrong, and you can lay that information out, but you cannot decide on the page who is right. It's blatantly POV to state that Christianity is monotheistic when so many think otherwise. It's blatantly POV to state that it's not. You must leave the gray area and leave it for the leader to decide.
From WP:NPOV: "We sometimes give an alternative formulation of the non-bias policy: assert facts, including facts about opinions — but don't assert opinions themselves. There is a difference between facts and opinions. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute". In this sense, that a survey produced a certain published result is a fact. That there is a planet called Mars is a fact. That Plato was a philosopher is a fact. No one seriously disputes any of these things. So we can feel free to assert as many of them as we can."
If you are missing recent conversations, please check the new /Archive 30. 322kb file size is just rediculous. Hope this doesn't cause problems, but I tried not to touch anything that had been edited within the last week. -- Andrew c 18:20, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
All the above is very nice, but does anyone have a source for their opinions beyond SlimVirgin? -- CTSWyneken 23:57, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Do they believe? We cannot simply take them at their word, for that is only proof about what they profess to believe. No, to know what they truly believe, we would have to know their hearts, which is impossible. So asking Christians does not decide the issue. Next, do Moslems feel Christians do not believe in one God? Yes, they have to, or they contradict their own beliefs. Drogo Underburrow 00:55, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Er, I'm not sure how you could call a matter of value judgment, which is based ones basic beliefs, a matter of "fact"...how could you check if Christianity is monotheistic? Do you, like, weigh it on a scale, or see how fast it falls in a vacuum or something? I think that no matter what alleged "disproof" you could pose, a Christian could always claim that some things are mysterious to finite minds and still claim to believe in only one God; or just add another, up-to-then undiscovered attribute, to the one God (a la some forms of Hinduism). Anyhow, here are some non-Christian sources (some "hostile", some reputable and ostensibly disinterested):
"Three of the world's major religions -- the monotheist traditions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam -- were all born in the Middle East and are all inextricably linked to one another. Christianity was born from within the Jewish tradition, and Islam developed from both Christianity and Judaism." [17]
"The History of Monotheistic Religion. Jews, Christians, and Muslims all have a sense about the origins of their religion." [18]
"The term is applied particularly to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, as well as Zoroastrianism." [19]
". . .the largest monotheistic religious systems: Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Sikhism." [20]
"Batak religion is bound up with Islam and Christianity and the majority of Batak are Muslim or Christian. Contact with the monotheistic religions differs greatly from one Batak society to another." [21]
"While this monotheistic religion [Christianity] developed from Judaism, there are several key differences in its teachings." [22]
And I'm sure there are quite few more in the "101,000" results "for christianity "monotheistic religion"" on Google as I only browsed to the third page. » MonkeeSage « 01:22, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Do their adherents or their adversaries? I think that is the main question we have to keep going back to. The views of the vast majority of a professed religion will always have more relevance in the article about that religion than those of a vast majority of other religions (or no religions). That's just a simple edict of fairness. It would give undue weight to a view from without a group for it to displace the accepted view within the group. Space should be given for dissent and to represent the debates on the issues, but to push aside the most significant view in favor of others, in the name of fair representation, is a contradiction of terms. It is unfair to the group about which the article is written, to force their view to be filtered through the hostile views of outsiders. Those outside views can be represented, but not given equality with or priority over the view of the group in question, as the view of the group, is, by definition, the most important and relevant one to the article. » MonkeeSage « 00:50, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I think we can all agree that Christians profess monotheism. To me, that is exactly the same thing as monotheism (since monotheism is by definition a belief) but apparently there is some dispute over the definition of term. I also think that "Christians profess monotheism" is more neutral than saying "Christianity is regarded by its followers as monotheistic." The second statement has a negative connotation, is equivical, is weasly, is wordy, and is redundant because any religion is defined by its beliefs. If Christianity were to be defined by the beliefs of Islam, it would be Islam. However, Christianity is not defined by Islam, just as Judaism is not defined by Christianity (a point that has needed to be raised in several articles). Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 03:47, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Heather says, "I have two mommies." Jack Chick disagrees, and says that Heather only has one mommy and one mommy's lesbian lover. Clearly, Heather and Jack mean different things by the word "mommy"; Jack's definition encompasses only biological mommies (and perhaps heterosexual adoptive mommies) whereas Heather's definition is broader. Nonetheless, it is NPOV to say that Heather claims to have two mommies.
Likewise, Jack Chick (who is a Christian) claims to believe in one God. However, Hasan (who is a Muslim) claims that Jack actually believes in three gods. Hasan's claim with regards to Jack is analogous to Jack's claim with regards to Heather. Hasan and Jack are working with different definitions of "God", just as Jack and Heather use different definitions of "mommy". Nonetheless, it is NPOV to say that Jack professes a belief in one God. -- FOo 08:18, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Dear Friends: This discussion misses the point. It makes no difference if something is common knowledge or not, according to WP:CITE. Everything needs to be documented, even Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence. Anything that is not documented is subject to removal by another editor at any time. WP:V, WP:NOR. So, as silly as it seems, we need to document everything. So, Drogo, my friend, produce a reference that says, "Christianity is not monotheistic" and we can then do a "some"/"others" or change the statement to Christians believe there is only one God, or some such other thing.
At this time, however, we have one citation on this phrase. It is a scholarly dictionary and literally says, without qualification, that Christianity is monotheistic. Until a conflicting cite is provided, that is how it has to stay. -- CTSWyneken 03:30, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Here are some relevant verses from the Qur'an:
The first verse states that Jesus never told people to worship him or Mary as gods. Of course this suggests that Christians do this, but recognize this is not a proper critique of Trinitarianism, as Mary is not a member of the trinity, nor does it actually state that Christians are polytheistic.
Only one translation of the last verse speaks of other gods, and even here they're said to be joined with God. The point is better stated as, don't ascribe partners to God.
There is also no reason to accept Muhammad as a reputable scholarly source on Christianity. Timothy Usher 04:30, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, let's start listing reputable scholarly sources. I encourage people on both sides of the devate to add to this list. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 04:28, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I see nobody suggesting that the article should say Xty is not monotheistic. It has elements of monotheism AND elements of tritheism. The article cited below points out that every purported expression/explanation leans either too much to modalism or to tritheism - both of which are heresy. That article does not claim Xty is completely monotheistic with no elements of tritheism. Saying Xty is a "monotheistic religion" in the intro is an oversimplification and I see no reason to include it other than to have wikipedia endorse dogma -- JimWae 06:04, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I am not recommending anything additional be put in the article - rather that something controversial not be stated as fact. WP:NOR does not apply. -- JimWae 06:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
You are doing original research on WP:NOR now? -- JimWae 06:30, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
CTSWyneken is obviously right (per policy). The problem is not with the lack of sources; in fact there are so many sources that it's difficult to pinpoint the "most notable" ones for the various views. Time for a linguistic tally of common parlance. (I'll ignore forms like -istic and -ism which does not change the figures significantly). A Google search for "christianity" yields some 80 million hits, 1 million of which only contain the word "monotheistic", 200,000 both "monotheistic" and "polytheistic", 100,000 only "polytheistic". The latter two, together some 25% of the hits, generally deal with the Moslim criticism. One can safely say that in the US/Western world/Christianity-oriented English language monotheism has become synonymous with come to include the Trinity concept; criticism comes from people with a different concept called Thaweed. It's basically a translation problem. Thaweed does not translate as monotheism because monotheism encompasses the Christian concept (just like the word "god" in English generally calls up images of the God of the Christians). People who visit the English Wikipedia are supposed to speak English and understand the concepts behind the words. This is not to say we should ignore the difference. Like Sophia said, Wikipedia has a clear western-world-centric
systemic bias and we should do everything we can to remove that bias. We cannot change the meaning of the word monotheism which includes the Christian concept. We can point out the difference. If this can be done in the lead, great. Otherwise we had better leave the word "monotheism" out of the lead.
(Statistically, the question whether or not Christianity is monotheistic is not a big deal. Assertions of monotheism only involve 1.25% of the hits; discussion 0.4% or less.)
All the above still needs citations but I'm sure they won't differ significantly. And I think they should not end up in the lead. If only because I am not a native speaker of English and fully aware of the all-important translation aspects here - something is "lost in translation" if we translate "monotheism" into "thaweed" - I can't imagine an authoritative English-Arabic dictionary doing that (especially not if published in a predominantly Islamic country).
Finally think about consensus and what would happen if Moslim editors were present in proportions mirroring the real world... in that case a compromise (does it exist?) or outright removal of monotheistic from the lead would be mandated by the consensus process.
Sorry if this is rambles a bit, I'm in a hurry... AvB ÷ talk 07:40, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I think we're getting a little off track here. In the last section on "controversies" is the statement "Some Muslims argue that Trinitarian Christianity is a form of polytheism known as tritheism rather than monotheism.[citation needed]." So, let's see if we can find a citation from an authoritative Muslim source. We've already seen that the Qur'an does not specifically state that Christianity is tritheism. So, moving on: is there anything in the Hadith that makes that claim? Or, to speed this up: Is there an authoritative Muslim source (of any type) that we can cite here and thus remove the "citation needed" tag? Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 14:14, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I have yet to find a cite that says Muslims accuse Christians of tritheism. I have found cites that say Christians accuse Muslims of accusing Christians of tritheism, but that is not what Mulsims themselves say. Here's an example: "Furthermore, there is no truth in the assertion of Christian apologists and many scholars of religion that Muslim theologians have always misinterpreted the Christian doctrine of the Trinity (three in one) as a doctrine of tritheism (three gods)." Reference: Kung, Hans, "Christianity and World Religions: Dialogue with Islam," pg. 9. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 15:00, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Another cite making the same point: "In particular, Jesus is said to be God the Son, or the Son of God. As the Muslim questions details of this theology, the Christian characteristically forms a common explanation for our differences: He complains that Muslims do not understand the Trinity; that we are actually accusing Christians of Tritheism and other heresies." (emphasis added). This is from truereligion.org, a Muslim website.
So, I have to ask: is it verifiable that there are Muslims who say Christians are tritheistic? Or is this a Christian misunderstanding of what Muslims are saying? Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 15:18, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I rephrased the sentence so that it's halfway between the original and Alienus' proposal. I added two citations: the one from Alienus, which at least associates trinitarianism with polytheism, and the one by Dr. Miller, who argues that Christian apologists are misrepresenting Muslims by using the word "tritheism." That should (I hope) cover a range of Muslim responses. Now to find the other three citations needed as listed in the next section. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 15:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Timothy, you were right about it being a matter of definition. Monotheism is the belief in one God. But I have again changed my mind about whether its right to say in the article, "Christianity is monotheistic". Here's why: we don't know what Christians believe. We only know what they say they believe. Therefore, this everyone can agree is correct: Christianity is a religion whose adherants profess monotheism but Christianity is a monotheistic religion is both contradicted by Muslims, who say it isn't, and something that is impossible to know, as it requires knowing what is in the hearts of Christians, what they trully believe, as opposed to what they profess to belief. Please note, monotheism is not defined as "the profession of belief" but as believing. Drogo Underburrow 19:27, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
"Christianity is an Abrahamic religion centered on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as recounted in the New Testament. Most Christians profess a form of monotheism called trinitarianism, while others are nontrinitarian. Christians believe Jesus to be the Messiah, and thus refer to him as Jesus Christ. With an estimated 2.1 billion adherents in 2001, Christianity is the world's largest religion."
Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 19:38, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
It's not the scientific method, but there are recognized authorities on religion as well: on the religious side, you have theologians and clergy (both Christian and Muslim and anyone else who has commented); on the secular side, you have PhD's in the sociology of religion, philosophy of religion and the like. No, you can't broadly say that the Pope knows more about what exists than the average Buddhist, but you can definitely say that the Pope is a more credible source on Christian (or at least Catholic) beliefs than the Buddhist is, and that the Buddhist is a more credible source on Buddhist beliefs than the pope is. To say that "every person is just as credible as another" is to violate WP:RS. You say, "there is no need to cite an expert on Christianity to state that Muslims have one view or another about Christianity." True, but we do need to cite a verifiable and reliable Muslim authority. True, we cannot choose sides. We can only cite reliable, verifiable sources. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 22:02, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
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I dont get it. How is Christianity classified as a monotheistic religion when it has three Gods? Trinity and stuff yet its classified as a monotheism.
Giovanni, as per edit summary, there is no Christian denomination that I know of which believes God and Jesus two be two seperate gods.
Even so, why not in "controversies" mention that Christianity is alleged to be polytheistic, most notably by many Muslims? That would be an appropriate place for it, and as a major world POV, it's something that should be briefly mentioned, perhaps with a link to Isa.
The "self-defined" is rather derisive in tone, and suggests that they are deluding themselves in this regard. Why not, "Christianity (as self-defined) claims to be a so-called "Monotheistic" religion..."? Yes, that's parody on my part, but illustrative of the feeling I get from this phrase. It's too off-key for the intro sentence, which is not meant to provoke cognitive dissonance, but only provide a clear framework for subsequent critical discussion. Timothy Usher 03:09, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Tritheism: There are three Gods, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, against the Trinity. Present day Mormonism is tritheistic
Tritheism is the teaching that the Godhead is really three separate beings forming three separate gods. This erring view is often misplaced by the cults for the doctrine of the Trinity which states that there is but one God in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The doctrine of the trinity is, by definition, monothestic. That is, it is a doctrine that affirms that there is only one God in all the universe.
Tritheism has taken different forms throughout the centuries. In the early church the Christians were accused of being tritheists by those who either refused to understand or could not understand the doctrine of the Trinity. In the late 11th century a Catholic monk of Compiègne in France, Roscelin considered the three Divine Persons as three independent beings and that it could be said they were three gods. He maintained that God the Father and God the Holy Ghost would have become incarnate with God the Son unless there were three gods.
Present day Mormonism is tritheistic -- but with a twist. Mormonism teaches that there are many God's in the universe but they serve and worship only one of them. The godhead for earth is to them really three separate gods: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. The Father used to be a man on another world who brought one of his wives with him to this world - they both have bodies of flesh and bones. The son is a second god who was literally begotten between god the father and his goddess wife. The holy ghost is a third god. Therefore, in reality, Mormonism is polytheistic with a tritheistic emphasis. Giovanni33 03:29, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Tom, Can you please help me understand how is it possible that Jesus be God and still he directs the father as God, says "trust in God, ALSO trust me", prays to God, changes his mind in some cases, learns and does not have the knowledge of the "hour"? I can agree that he was the second most important being in the world, having recieved all the authority in heaven and earth, but yet not God. -- Aminz 04:15, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I need to go now, but let me ask another question which I will be thankful if you could answer. Let's assume that Jesus claimed God is three in one and he told his disciples about this. Shouldn't they ask him to explain these fascinating facts to him? It should have been definitely interesting for them to know. There should be a conversation about it in NT. It should be somewhere where Jesus tells them about the nature of God and tells them that this concept is hard to understand but should have trust in it, or at least he should illuminate his disciples. -- Aminz 04:23, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I added the subject to the Controversies section. I had to mention Egypt again to pull in a parallel, not knowing of another. But if there is a another parallel, feel free to replace it. I think there should be some parallel included to explain the Christian argument. I also have some information from Hall which may do good for another controversy, involving whether God could have a son, based upon God needing to have a mate and procreate in that manner. KV 04:45, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
This concept of God/Godhead and monotheism is one of the great mysteries of those who worship the God of Israel. Gio you had a colorful explanation of what Mormons believe about God, but as a LDS, I would never and have never expressed myself in that fashion. I suspect that churches teach a doctrine and their members easily believe something different. Latter-day Saints (Mormons), IMPO, worship one God, the Father, through His Son, Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is the communicator of God in many ways. Surely He can speak directly do us, his children, but the vast majority of the time it is through the Holy Spirit. I tend to think that I strive to worship the same God that Jesus prayed to in the Garden of Gethsemane. They are one Godhead, though they are three distinct personages. The Nicene Creed, from most theologians with whom I have spoken, is a mystery to understand. I think it is beyond the understanding of most, if not all, people. The Nicene Creed is a product of the 4th century. It strives to instruct its adherents in a way that attempts to provide an understanding of an incomprehensible subject. It is a mystery. They are three, but one. Though I can understand whay Muslims would say that Christians are polytheistic; for them there is one God, end of the story. No need for one to atone for the wages of sin, no need for a sacrifice of the Son of God. Sometimes we need to acknowledge how things look to other people, though we would say things differently and believe differently. Some people say Mormons are polythesitic, to which I disagree, but I understand why they say it. Just as the Bible mentions other gods, Israel worshipped One God. LDS worship One God and the vast majority of Christians worship One God. Saying one "self-defines" or similar statement does not cast dispersions, but is a statement of fact. I can't tell you the numbers of times I have been forced to write that Mormons are self-described as Christians. Is it a pain in backside? You bet. If it is good for the goose, it is good for the gander. Cheers. Storm Rider (talk) 06:43, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I fixed the information, adding citations from reputable sources. The one that gave the most information was an old college textbook done by historians. The other was a book that's bias would only be in apologism for Christians, so I don't see Str having a problem with that book's bias. I of course used the biased source where it is speaking against its bias. This version clarifies orthodoxy and heresy, and the origins of both. And yes, it was the Catholic/Mainstream Christian biased source that told me that Constantine was involved in the debates. I plan on using them more in the persecution section.
There should be no doubt that these authors are better than Str's opinion as far as verifiability goes.
I still need to figure out how this all weaves in to convert it to proper reference format, citebook wasn't cutting it for this. Anyone able to help convert it would be appreciated.
So, you are using biased books (again). I don't like it. I am for serious historical scholarship. Some problems with the new version:
So all in all, you take a passage that needs no improvement (IMHO) and turn it upside down and into a hotch potch of half-baked stuff. For those who want to see the diff nonetheless, here it is: [2] In German we call this "Verschlimmbessern" (roughly: Im-worse-prove). Str1977 (smile back) 19:39, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Not cornered at all. I have stated my case and stick to it. Str1977 (smile back) 20:25, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
KV, it would be helpful to go ahead and name the policies. While I think KV's version is somewhere between misleading and inaccurate, KV is right to ask for a citation or three to the contrary. It won't be hard to find, but it needs to be added before the whole thing is fixed. However, it would also help to clarify that by "one creed" we mean a general "shared set of beliefs" rather than a specific creed with a specific text, like the Nicene or Apostles' Creed.
KV wrote above, For example, there was a shared creed that Jesus had come, taught, was crucified, buried, and raised again. However, some people like the Arians thought that Jesus was fully mortal and not at all divine. Others like the Gnostics preferred other gospels than the proto-Catholics. Some believed that Judas betrayed Jesus, others that Jesus asked Judas to turn him in. Some believed that Mary Magdeleine was Jesus' wife and closest apostle, whereas most didn't believe her an apostle at all, and Jesus celibate. All of this without disagreeing with the basic creed described above. I suggest we use the scholars in this area, and not your own personal opinion. KV
These gnostics do not all agree that Jesus "came, taught, was crucified, buried, and raised again." The Arians thought that Jesus was a highly exalted being created near the beginning of time by God, but not God himself. Regarding those who believed that Jesus asked Judas to turn him in, the Gospel of Judas doesn't record any events after Jesus' arrest. It earlier suggests that Jesus needed to die on the Cross to be free of his physical body, so it's unlikely that this group would have believed in a bodily resurrection, as that would have been a reimprisonment to them. The same is true of many of the gnostics; they would have supported perhaps a spiritual resurrection, but not a physical one. Suggesting the resurrection was only spiritual, was the gnostics' attempt to adapt Christianity and make it more palatable to their listeners. Most Christians did and do include Mary Magdalene as an apostle, calling her and the other first witnesses to the resurrection the "apostles to the apostles." As Str said, belief that she was Jesus' wife or lover is a very modern idea not found in antiquity, despite Gnostic accounts of her having received other "secret teachings." This is pretty basic stuff. I'll try to get sources soon, if no one beats me to it. Wesley 16:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Mediation procedures have begun. Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2006-05-15_Christianity
I suppose we'll have to finish discussing this there. KV 18:13, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Giovanni33, re your change: "Christianity began within the Jewish religion among those who claimed to be followers of Jesus of Nazareth". Is there any basis for doubt in this regard? It sounds scare-quotey and snarky, without adding anything useful. Timothy Usher 18:58, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
If everything is in doubt because the historical sources are questioned then the sentence should read "Christianity claimed to begin within those who claimed to be part of the Jewish religion among those who claimed to be followers of the person who claimed to be Jesus of Nazareth" XXX
Dear whoever, that's a big "if" - the historical sources are not questioned in the way you think. Str1977 (smile back) 13:12, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I think whether or not Christianity is monotheistic, or whether any religion can be other than monotheistic, is better discussed in context at monotheism. Tom Harrison Talk 23:53, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Drogo, your sentence, "According to some Moslems, Christianity is a polytheistic religion which worships three false gods", aside from being wildly misplaced (the actual Muslim point of view is represented further in the article), is inaccurate: Muslims do *not* hold that the Christian God is a false God, only that Christians shouldn't worship Jesus or Mary alongside him. The Holy Spirit doesn't come up, so it's unclear what the Islamic position would be - I'd guess that it'd be that this is just God.
It is likewise false to state that Christians belief that there is more than one god. As monotheism is defined as the belief in one God, there should be no debate here. The prevailing belief is that Jesus is God, not that he is another God - in fact, I've never heard anyone propose the latter.
Suppose we have a branch of Islam which holds that the Black Stone is God. Are they now polytheists, in that they worship both God and the Black Stone? By the logic you've advanced here, they would be: 1) The black stone isn't really God 2) such that they worship two entities, not one as they believe 3) hence they are polytheistic. There are many more possible, increasingly ridiculous-sounding examples. Ultimately, your re-definition of monotheism requires us to decide what God is to determine when the use of the term is appropriate without hedging, which is beyond the scope of our mission (and, I'd add, our expertise) here on wikipedia. Timothy Usher 03:21, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
According to the Qur'an, Christians have strayed from strict monotheism. Moslems believe that Christianity is not a monotheistic religion. Drogo Underburrow 05:11, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I think it is becoming apparent that saying Xty IS monotheistic is POV. The easiest solution is to just drop the word from the description in the intro & later on mention that Xns view Xty as monotheistic, while others do not -- JimWae 05:14, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
After a bit of edit warring I made a simple edit that states "most Christians believe firmly they are monotheistic". This sentence is very choppy; however, this introduction has taken uncounted hours of negotation to get to where it was. I find it silly that because Islam disputes Christain claims to monotheism that we now have to bend over backwards to take care of another religions concerns in an article about Christianity. Surely readers will assume that an article on Christianity will understand that the article is about Christian beliefs and is not taking a side. This kind of dispute is best handled later in the article. Now having said the above, I still find it acceptable to clarify in the article that Christians believe...x, y, and z.
I have also requested the edit war participants to refrain from further edits and focus on gaining concensus on the discussion page. Let's make this a simple issue and not complicate it any further. Storm Rider (talk) 07:20, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I have to agree with Drogo. Islam generally believes that Christianity is not monotheistic, and there are non-religious observers who, noting the trinity, Virgin Mary, and the countless saints and angels, agree. To say that Christianity is monotheistic is as POV as insisting that Jesus was the son of God and not just the prophet who preceded the final prophet, Mohammed. It's not up to us to weigh in on whether Christianity or Islam is correct on doctrinal matters such as these, just to report them neutrally.
Timothy and Homestarmy, you both want to re-write the basic rules that Wikipedia operates under, and that is not allowed. Wikipedia has a method of solving this problem, and its called NPOV for short. You can either read it and learn it and support it, or you force us to explain it to you here on the talk page. I promise you, if you read, knew, and supported NPOV, we would not be having any discussion, the issue would magically go away. Drogo Underburrow 16:32, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Look, this issue is not as complicated as both of you, Timothy and Homestarmy are trying to make it out to be.
The bottom line is that the rules here prohibit us from writing in an article that "Christianity is monotheistic" Here is why:
1. Christians believe that Christianity is monotheistic. 2. Muslims believe that Christianity isn't monotheistic.
The two groups do not agree. Are you with me so far? Is this not all perfectly clear and factual so far?
3. Saying "Christianity IS monotheistic" is saying that the Christians are right and the Muslims are wrong. The Muslims say its not, and the sentence says it is, and its contradicting them, therefore they are wrong, according to the article.
4. NPOV says we can't say that. We can't take sides, no matter how badly you want to say that Christians are right, no matter how firmly you believe that they are right, its not allowed.
Christians believe that Christianity is monotheistic. - This is the fact that Muslims and Christians can both agree on, and can go in the article.
Christianity is monotheistic. - This is a statement that Muslims and Christians do not agree on, and hence cannot be treated as a fact, and cannot go in the article.
It's really simple, and has nothing to do with Tom Cruise.
Its called NPOV, you might want to read up on it sometime, and spare us the trouble of having to explain at length the basic rules over and over.
Bringing up Scientology does not change the above. Attempts to confuse the issue will not work. - Drogo Underburrow 17:11, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
"Why does the Islam article state that Islam is monotheistic?" I don't know. If you object, do it on their talk page, not here.
"I don't know of any church where you'll ever hear anyone worship a plurality of Gods." - So what?
"I also don't know of a single variety of Bible ...that does not state that God is the only God." - So what? Just because the Bible says something, does not mean Muslims cannot dispute what it says. When significant numbers of people dispute things, NPOV prohibits us from saying one side is right.
"Christianity is almost compleatly(sic) based on either the Bible or a Church's practices ....and either way you slice it, it is clearly monotheistic." - So you say. Muslims disagree. NPOV says the article can't choose sides.
"This is not New Agepedia, if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and sounds like a duck, its a duck." - Unless a significant body of people disagree, and call it a sheep. In which case, we are not allowed to say, "Its a duck", we can only say, 'Group X thinks it is a duck."
This is not my opinion. I'm simply applying the NPOV rules. You could do the same for yourself if you would only take the time to learn them and decide they apply instead of whatever rules you make up yourself, and then we could discuss much more complex things to make the article better and not dwell on this basic stuff. But if we do not agree on the basic stuff, there is nothing at all we can agree on, since we arn't playing by the same rules. If one team thinks its baseball, they can't play if the other team insists on using a football. - Drogo Underburrow 17:55, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
“If you were to ask any of a billion Muslims if they thought Christians worshiped only one god, their answer would be "no"”...“The Muslims say its not”...
You cannot speak for all Muslims, Drogo (indeed, I doubt if you could even speak for one). You need a reputable scholarly source, for starters.
“We can't take sides, no matter how badly you want to say that Christians are right, no matter how firmly you believe that they are right, its not allowed.”
Sorry, but there is a line that we draw when it comes to basic findings of fact as related to dictionary definitions.
What Muslims who believe this are simply misinformed. It is also a common belief among Christians that Allah is not the same as God. In both cases, we cannot be hedging indisputable facts with prejudice and ignorance. It is the job of wikipedia to inform. WP:NPOV must not be construed in such a way as to compromise encyclopedicity. The mere fact that something is widely believed does not in itself merit equal inclusion. Sometimes it’s enough to inform the reader that a certain opinion exists.
“So, its wrong to say "Christianity IS monotheistic" which says that Muslims are wrong.”
No wronger that it is to give the approximate age of the Earth, which says that creationists are wrong. You need a reputable scholarly source which says not just that many Muslims believe Christianity to be polytheistic, which would warrant only a statement to that effect (which we already have), but one which advances the opinion that Christianity actually is polytheistic. Timothy Usher 17:58, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
You insist on a source that says Moslems object? I'm not suggesting that the article say that Muslims object. I'm only suggesting that it say that Christians say that Christianity is monotheistic. My reason is that Moslems object. I don't need a source for this, its not going in the article, I am just asserting it. Are you seriously arguing that they don't? That would be very argumentive of you, arguing just to argue. But, if you truly doubt that more than a few Moslems feel that Christianity is not monotheistic, I won't debate you. Instead, I will insist that you entirely remove all mention of monotheism from the article unless every sentence on the topic is sourced and attributed, as required under the WP:Verify policy.
"Sorry, but there is a line that we draw when it comes to basic findings of fact as related to dictionary definitions" - it doesn't say that in the policy pages, and you can't make up your own rules. It makes no difference anyway. If significant numbers of people do not believe something that is defined in a dictionary, then NPOV requires we deal with their POV.
"What Muslims who believe this are simply misinformed." - it doesn't matter, the issue is not wether they are right, but whether they believe something.
" WP:NPOV must not be construed in such a way as to compromise encyclopedicity." - Another rule you just made up? Show me where it says this in the policy pages.
"The mere fact that something is widely believed does not in itself merit equal inclusion." No one is asking for equal inclusion. The point is one cannot say that the side is wrong. Drogo Underburrow 18:26, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
It is unfortunate to have this type of discussion and have Myopic make edits without gaining concensus. I would request that all editors stop editing the intro until we have come to a conclusion. The proposal on the table is to edit the first paragraph to read, in some way or form, that Christians believe in a monotheistic concept of God. The operative term is believe, the rest of the sentence can be changed.
Also, it does not help to bring up other articles and how they are written. Believe me, the same standards are meant to apply to every article and some just "get it" sooner than others. As a LDS this has long been a thorn in my side as other Christians insist on telling me what I believe; it is not fun, but it is part of the game we play here at WIKI.
The concept of monotheism is so fundamental to Christianity that it is a bit boggling that it should be clarified. However, the simple change mentioned above will ensure that we meet all standards of NPOV however silly we sometimes apply the rules. Enough said. Storm Rider (talk) 18:38, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to go into what others' have said and simply state my view:
Two more points:
Can someone say exactly what this means? I'd like to adjust the writing but don't want to change the meaning. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I think it's simply saying that within Christian scriptures, the first reference to the term "Christian" is in Acts. — Aiden 23:04, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, I think the reference is the passage in Acts, which says that the name Christians was first coined in Antioch. It was not coined when this passage was written (and Paul's letters - which might or might not include the term) preceded Acts) but this passage reports on this. Str1977 (smile back) 14:31, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Do any reliable sources describe Christianity as other than monotheistic? Tom Harrison Talk 19:00, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Christianity is religion centered on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, known by Christians as Jesus Christ, as recounted in the New Testament. Generally it is thought of by Christians as monotheistic, though some ancient sects were not and some critics, most notably Muslims accuse it of being polytheistic.
This is more specific. but I don't really like it much. - Drogo Underburrow 20:04, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Let's try to leave the attacks and 'but some people say' stuff until at least after the introduction. All Christians consider the religion monotheistic (the number of exceptions is trivial). The fact that some outspoken members of other religions think differently is worth mentioning, but not in the intro. We shouldn't include what is said by a minority critics in the intro. I can find sources who call Islam "Satanic" but I wouldn't put it in the intro to Islam. (I wouldn't put it in the article at all in fact, but there you go). DJ Clayworth 14:24, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
And those Christians who disagree AFAIK reject the Trinity rather than the monotheistic character of their religion, e.g. Unitarians. Str1977 (smile back) 14:28, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I have made a version with changes in the first paragraph (minimal) and added information in Monotheism under Beliefs. If this is accepted, we can pull it out of controversies.
I am unable to find so far any sourced references to Islam viewing Christianity as not monotheistic. Pecher Talk 17:54, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I looked at the current link, and the site is hosted by "The Sabr Foundation" which says it "is a not-for-profit educational and religious foundation." How is that not reputable?
The term "Abrahamic religion" carries with it a very strong POV. Christians do not ususally consider teir religion to be an "Abrahamic" one; to be more, Christian theology does not recognize any relationship to Islam. Furthermore, Judaism does not recognize any special relationship with either Christianity or Islam, considering them man-made religions alongside Buddhism, Hinduism, and everything else. Only in Islam can we find the view that these three religions share a common root in the faith of Abraham. I'm not sure about the views of the majority of contemporary scholars of religion, but I did not see any references in this article as to who among the scholars calls Christianity an "Abrahamic religion". Pecher Talk 18:15, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I do not see this as a NPOV issue at all, however the way the sentence is currently phrased is a little weasely: Christianity is considered an Abrahamic religion. This naturally raises the question "by whom"? I think if we can state who consideres Christianity an Abrahamic religion, we can fix the POV issues right then and there. Personally, I would remove the phrase "considered", but apparently there is at least one person (maybe more?) who disagree with this claim. Therefore, the easiest fix is to simply state who is making the claim, either by qualifying the sentence, or adding a citation.-- Andrew c 22:47, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
This page was apparently deleted at some point. AnnH apparently ended up restoring it. I'm only stating this since I notice it's not showing up on my watchlist, so people will now know that it has been edited. Top of your watchlist now...
Why is there a 'citation needed' tag on the clause stating the term 'Christian' is first used in the New Testament in Acts 11:26? Maybe I'm missing something. The clause links directly to the verse. This verse is the first mention in the New Testament of the term. See here. — Aiden 22:20, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Christianity is a religion centered on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, as recounted in the New Testament. Most Christians believe Jesus to be divine, one of three persons in a triune God, and refer to him as Jesus Christ. With an estimated 2.1 billion adherents in 2001, Christianity is the world's largest religion. [1]
Timothy Usher, I'd like to briefly explain why I felt it necessary to revert most of your changes. The main issue here is monotheism. Christians see themselves as monotheistic, and it would be POV for us to say otherwise. We must report what Christians believe about their own religion. However, we cannot decide whether these beliefs are true. It is a common belief among Muslims that Christianity falls short of true monotheism because they worship a mortal prophet -- Jesus -- as a god. Yes, I realize that trinitarianism says that God is one entity with three aspects, but this is clearly not accepted by Muslims. Who's right? Who cares?! We just report both sides. Given the number of Muslims out there, I hardly think they qualify as a minor view. They deserve a sentence or two, no?
Now, I encourage you to hash this issue out fully in Talk before making any edits at all that involve these topics. This will avoid an edit war. Thank you for understanding. Al 03:11, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
"no matter how much you claim that the Trinity is One God, it still mixes a human being (Jesus) with God, and thus results in worshiping either a deified human being (Jesus as God) or a micro-god (God with Jesus's human characteristics) and this is not monotheism. You are worshiping a false image not the real God."[ [6]
christianity
n 1: a monotheistic system of beliefs and practices based on the Old Testament and the teachings of Jesus as embodied in the New Testament and emphasizing the role of Jesus as savior.
Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University
I'm sorry, but you're simply mistaken. Even if Christians define their religion as monotheistic, it is not up to us to support or deny this claim: we just report it.
Oh, and note that many definitions of Christianity somehow manage not to mention monotheism, so your point is diminished even on its own terms. For example:
The bottom line is that it is as POV to assert that Christianity is in fact monotheistic as it would be to assert that Islam is in fact wrong. THat's because the former necessitates the latter. Al 04:38, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Replacing www.islamic.org.uk with www.muhammad.net is not adequate. We need reputable scholarly sources, not religious pamphleteering. This is because WP:NPOV does not include the ignorant point of view, which I allege is all this is. Show me an acknlowledged academic expert on Christianity who is claiming that Christianity is polytheistic. Then, we have something. Now, all we have is misunderstanding which believe it or not, despite WP:NPOV, doesn't count. That is why we have WP:V.
Also, Alienus, your allegations of "edit-warring" (in your edit summary), like charges you've put to other editors since your last unblock, is unwarranted, as I've been a regular contributor to this talk page, and have discussed this issue extensively above. Timothy Usher 03:17, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
No one is trying to prove that Christianity is polytheistic. That would be as silly as trying to prove it is monotheistic. There are no proofs of these ideas. This is not science, and we are not dealing with facts. That is why it is wrong of you to make the claim "Christianity is monotheistic". Its not. It says it is, and various scholars say it is, and that is all one can say about it. However, a lot of people, particularly Muslims, feel Christianity is not monotheistic, not in the sense that Islam is. Would you dispute that Muslims do not believe that the dogma of the Trinity is true? In that case, you have 1.2 billion people who object to your saying that the dogma of the Trinity is a fact and therefore Christianity is monotheistic. But that is in fact why Christianity is considered by its adherants as monotheism. Drogo Underburrow 03:59, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Can someone come to a count on Aiden's reverts, it seems in the past 24 hours he's done at least 5 without me counting. I have to get to bed, so I can't do this right now.
I'm going to do something which might be rare here; I'd be curious to know other examples of it here on Wikipedia. What I'm going to do, is change my mind, and state that the opposition has convinced me that they are correct and I am wrong. I've argued very long and hard; now I've decided I was wrong. I now believe that its ok to state as a fact, that Christianity is monotheistic. Here's why I have changed my mind.
Timothy Usher has convinced me, it IS a matter of dictionary definitions, and my understanding of the meaning of "monotheistic" was wrong. Monotheism means to believe that God is one; it doesn't mean that God really is one. So, the mere fact that Christians profess that God is one, makes their religion monotheistic by definition. It doesn't matter if their reason for so believing is wrong. It doesn't matter if others think they are nuts. The only thing that counts, under the definition of monotheism, is for Christians to believe that God is one. I believe that Christians honestly do believe that. Therefore, its ok to state, "Christianity is monotheistic", as this means exactly the same thing as saying, "Christians believe that Jesus, The Holy Spirit, and the Father, are all one God." (or however they want to say it, I'm not 100% on their wording.
Its not POV to say "Christianity is monotheistic" because this IS saying that Christians believe in one God". It is not saying, "Only one God exists", nor is it saying that Christians are right to believe so. It is is simply stating what Christians believe, a point I was not aware of. Now, the only way "Christianity is monotheistic" would violate NPOV, is if other people believed that Christians were liars, and secretly believed that God was not one. If Muslims claim that Christians really believe that God isn't one, then the claim that Christianity is monotheistic becomes again a POV I don't think anyone makes that argument, but if they do, I will again have to rethink my opinion here. But Muslims simply think that Christians only think they believe in one God, but actually are believing in three gods. Am I right about this? On this revolves the whole issue, as it is the Muslim belief that really determines whether it is NPOV to state that "Christianity is monotheistic".
That is, because we only can state that as a fact if there is no one who believes otherwise; if any significant group of people, like 1.2 billion Muslims, believe that Christians don't believe in one God, are lying and secretly worship three gods, then we can't state it as a fact. Its my impression that Moslems do not assert that Christians are liars and secretly worship three Gods. What Moslems assert is that while Christians profess to believe in one God, they actually worship three. But that's ok, as long as Christians honestly profess a belief in one God, even if their dogma makes no sense, they have met the definition of monotheism, which is about belief only.
Congratulations, Timothy, you've convinced me. I hope you will think more kindly of me after this. Drogo Underburrow 04:49, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
What group disputes the statement that Christianity is a monotheistic religion? Drogo Underburrow 06:57, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Where is monotheism defined as "a religion with just one god"? I think its defined in terms of belief, not in terms of facts such as you just stated. I don't have access to good dictionaries, so I'm asking. Drogo Underburrow 07:07, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Christianity is a monotheistic religion means the same as saying "Christians believe in one god". Drogo Underburrow 07:14, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
My edit-conflicted post is remarkably like Drogo's: what you call "believing in monotheism" is by definition monotheism. Timothy Usher 07:19, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Agree. One dictionary definition of monotheism is "The doctrine or belief that there is only one God". So if Christians have a doctrine that there is only one God, but in practice believe that there are three or even more gods (i.e. by praying to the Virgin Mary), then its not so clear that Christianity is monotheistic. Why not leave such hair-splitting issues to the body of the article where they can be covered, and simply omit the word "monotheism" from the intro? Drogo Underburrow 08:25, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Kudos to Drogo for changing his mind, which is not an easy thing to do under these circumstances. DJ Clayworth 14:47, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
The Oxford English Dictionary gives the following definitions:
Note that it's not defined as "the belief that one believes in and worships one God".
Now I don't think there can be any question that Christian Churches teach that there is one God, or that Christians believe there is one God. The POV is not whether Christians believe that there is one God (it's a fact that they do); the POV is whether or not it is logical or reasonable for them to believe there is one God when they believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
The very first words in the ancient Nicene Creed are Credo in unum Deum — I believe in one God. The (also ancient) Athanasian Creed says something like "So is the Father God, the Son God, and the Holy Ghost God. And yet they are not three gods but One God." I think we're getting confused about whether the issue is whether Christianity teaches that there is one God (which it does, and which is what monotheism means) or whether it's logical for them to teach that when they recognize Three Persons as One God. Even Moslems, if they doubt the logic of the Christian position, cannot deny that Christianity teaches that there is one God.
If I state officially that my bedroom wallpaper is pink, and then elaborate on it so that you realize I think the colour is a mixture of blue and yellow, you can then say that my wallpaper is green, or that I'm crazy to say that it's pink, but you cannot deny that I state officially that it is pink. (Not that I'd want to imply that the doctrine of the Trinity is as crazy as thinking that blue and yellow make pink — but just giving an example that for you to acknowledge that I officially say something does not mean that you have to think it makes sense.)
In my view, to challenge the monotheistic nature of Christianity based on Islamic belief that Christians can't really believe in one God is a little bit like denying the theistic nature of Christianity based on atheists' belief that there is no God, so Christians can't really be worshipping Him — it's not a theistic religion, because although they think they worship a God, they don't really, since there is no God for them to worship.
Ask any Christian priest or theologian or peasant or seven-year-old child from a catechism class "how many Gods are there", and you will always get the same answer — "one". Because that is what Chrisianity teaches. I stress again that monotheism is not the belief that one believes in one God: it is the belief that there is one God, without reference to whether or not the believer can logically hold that belief in combination with his or her other beliefs. AnnH ♫ 13:22, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
If you read the 'Martyrdom of Polycarp', you'll see that after his arrest, the Romans accused Polycarp and Christians in general of atheism because he refused to worship the Roman gods; so at the coliseum, they asked him to recant by saying "Away with the atheists!" He said the words, but gestured towards the crowd as he did so, meaning that he considered the Roman public atheists because they didn't believe in the god of Christianity. So 'atheism' at least used to be used to mean disbelief in a particular god or pantheon.
Are the claims against Christianity's monotheism really claims that Christians don't believe or teach there is one god? Do we have anything that demonstrates that Islam in general thinks Christianity believes in many gods, or just some outspoken apologists? Wesley 16:50, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
OK, so I made up the term as a tip to Ockam's Razor!
This whole discussion is very nice, but the WP:CITE, WP:V and WP:NOR policies require all this to be documented. So, folks, everything should be sustaiable from legitimate sources. Who's got them? -- CTSWyneken 10:40, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
This whole discussion is rather silly. Monotheism is defined as "belief in one God." Christians believe in one God, and that makes Christianity monotheistic. The only arguments I've seen against this statement is that Christianity is not monothestic by the standards of Islam or Judaism. All that means is that Christian beliefs are different from Islamic beliefs and Judaic beliefs, which should be a no-brainer since they are today distinct religions.
Is Judaism monotheistic? Yet the Qur'an states that Judaism strayed from monotheism: "The Jews call Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Jesus the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!" (Qu'ran 9:30). Uzair=Ezra. Are we then to favor the Islamic view of Judaism over Judaic beliefs? Or, if we prefer to say that religious Jews believe what Judaism teaches, should not the same be said of Christianity? To do otherwise would be to exercise a double standard and violate WP:NPOV.
For that matter, Wikipedia lists
Zoroastrianism as a monotheistic faith. Zorastrianism (mostly) worships acknowledges two gods, the good Ahura Mazda and the evil Angra Mainyu; I recently discovered that some Zoroastrians worship a third god, the neutral
Zurvan, who is the father of both. AFAIK Zoroastrianism makes no claim that these three persons are of one substance, or are otherwise united in one God. If Wikipedia is to list Zoroasrianism as a monotheistic faith, without qualifiers, shouldn't Wikipedia do the same for Christianity? To do otherwise would be to exercise a double standard, and violate both WP:NPOV and
WP:NOR.
Arch O. La
Grigory
Deepdelver
13:25, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
KV explained why Zoroastrianism is a monotheistic faith. It occurs to me that Zoroastrians would consider bitheism to be a misunderstanding of their religion, just as Christians consider tritheism to be a misunderstanding of our religion. It would solve the double standard to say that outsiders sometimes consider Zoroastrianism to be bitheistic rather than monotheistic, although I wonder if Zoroastrians might consider that to be an attack on their religion?
Closer to home, I think the real issue is that use of the word "person" (persona in Latin) can lead to confusion. The term used in Greek, hypostasis, has a more specific meaning. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 15:54, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
After a quick scan on Google books, I've listed a few sources on Zoroastrianism as dualism and/or ditheism. One source in particular lists these labels as Islamic and Christian misunderstandings of Zoroastrianism. By the same standard, I assert that labeling Christianity as tritheistic is a misunderstanding of the trinity. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 16:31, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm reposting this here in case people don't see it far far above (I had no idea the talk page had gotten so long!):
I apologize to Kash again, as I did on that other page. My main point was that a single standard should apply to the term "monotheism," and beyond that to any term used in comparative religion. However, if it's a misunderstanding to call Zoroastrianism bitheism, it is a similar misunderstanding to call Christianity tritheism. As Kash says, it call comes down to the oneness of God. By that standard, both Zoroastrianism and Christianity are monotheism, even though we have different understandings of God. Ditto Judaism, Samaritanism and Islam. More specifically, Trinitarian Christians believe in three members (or persons or hypostases) in one God, which is still monotheism but is different from the views of the other religions. Fishhead64 also has good points about the appropriate place for some of this discussion. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 17:57, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
PS: I should clarify that I am not pushing a pro-Christian POV; I am merely asking for equal treatment. Misunderstanding or not, we can certainly say that such claims have been made (and cite who) against both religions. So yes, Christians profess monotheism, others may not agree that we are monotheistic. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 18:06, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm not exactly sure why Christianity needs to define itself against Zoroastrianism, or why it was necessary to pull Zoroastrianism into the equation, but I've been asked for my opinion, so here goes:
Addressing some of the points made by others:
-- Fullstop 11:56, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Authoritative about what? The Pope can speak authoritatively of what Christians believe. He can insist, for example, that Christianity is monotheistic, and we should certainly include this, properly cited. Any imam, for example, can speak authoritatively about what Muslims believe about Christianity, even if it is that Christians are not true monotheists, and we should include this, too. Having included both, it would be biased to assert that the Pope is right and that imam is wrong. The issue of what constitutes monotheism is a subtle one, depending both on what status is ascribed to Jesus and on what the minimum requirements for godhood are. These are too subtle for us to rule on using our own authority. Al 15:18, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Since Aiden or Pecher, one of the two, simply undid it without thought or comment. I'd like to see what others think of the version I made to solve this dillema.
(Partially copied from above.) It's not a matter of being "generally seen"; it's a matter of definition. The debate over the Trinity being one or three Gods is irrelevent and let me tell you why: Those who do not believe in the Trinity content there is only one God. Those who do believe in the Trinity still content there is only one God. (Refer to any Christian creed or text for confirmation.) By definition of monotheism--"The doctrine or belief that there is only one God"--both groups are monotheist. It is not a matter or who is right or wrong, it is a matter of the English language. Notice the definition says nothing about facts but simply doctrine of belief. Every single Christian group--and I challenge you to prove otherwise--believes there exists only one God. Thus, by definition, all Christian groups are monotheist.
I really don't see why we have to qualify something that by definition is what it says it is. While Islam contents Christians believe in three Gods, Christians none the less believe that there is only one. There is a difference and the latter determines what consitutes monotheism. It seems to me to be a big double standard that people are so adamant about qualifying everything Christianity says about its own beliefs but I don't see this happening anywhere else. There is no reason why we should have to say "generally considered". — Aiden 19:08, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I think the reason is that while Christians say they believe in one god, editors think that a significant group is of the opinion that Christians do not believe in one god. The definition in many dictionaries is not "Those who profess to believe" but "those who believe". Drogo Underburrow 23:38, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
mon·o·the·ism
The doctrine or belief that there is only one God.
Most dictionaries say "belief that there is one God" not "belief in one God." Some Muslims might believe Christians believe in three Gods, but think they're one. However, the definition only requires belief that there is only one God. Christians believe there is only one God. Whether or not they're right, and whether or not the one God they believe in is actually three is irrelevent. Christianity is by definition monotheistic. No Christian believes there are three Gods. — Aiden 00:28, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
"Every single Christian group--and I challenge you to prove otherwise--believes there exists only one God" I can prove otherwise very quickly, and that is mentioning the Cainites. The Cainites believed that there were several gods, and that the god of the old testament was not the same, and actually was evil btw, as the god who created the world and sent Jesus.
Now, Christians believe in A) God the Father, B) God the Son, and C) God the Holy Spirit. I do not see any evidence that Christians even thought that these three were one originally. I placed a fact tag AFTER monotheistic and still no one bothered to provide a reference, my demand for a citation was simply deleted. Now, Christians had no problem telling the Northern Pagans that they were worshipping Satan, which was their POV on the matter. Now, if Muslims think that Christians worship three god, that is equally their POV on the matter. And according to NPOV policy, we have to cover it all.
Now, no one has made much of a fuss about my actual version, it's been the same debate other than a claim that a comma missing. Now, let me tell you what's good about this version, that you should try to see. It does cover both sides, it gives the benefit of the doubt to Christianity, and it explains the nature of the debate. It expands the knowledge of the reader. That is why it is great, you have a large amount of evidence that the Muslims are wrong, and you can lay that information out, but you cannot decide on the page who is right. It's blatantly POV to state that Christianity is monotheistic when so many think otherwise. It's blatantly POV to state that it's not. You must leave the gray area and leave it for the leader to decide.
From WP:NPOV: "We sometimes give an alternative formulation of the non-bias policy: assert facts, including facts about opinions — but don't assert opinions themselves. There is a difference between facts and opinions. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute". In this sense, that a survey produced a certain published result is a fact. That there is a planet called Mars is a fact. That Plato was a philosopher is a fact. No one seriously disputes any of these things. So we can feel free to assert as many of them as we can."
If you are missing recent conversations, please check the new /Archive 30. 322kb file size is just rediculous. Hope this doesn't cause problems, but I tried not to touch anything that had been edited within the last week. -- Andrew c 18:20, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
All the above is very nice, but does anyone have a source for their opinions beyond SlimVirgin? -- CTSWyneken 23:57, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Do they believe? We cannot simply take them at their word, for that is only proof about what they profess to believe. No, to know what they truly believe, we would have to know their hearts, which is impossible. So asking Christians does not decide the issue. Next, do Moslems feel Christians do not believe in one God? Yes, they have to, or they contradict their own beliefs. Drogo Underburrow 00:55, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Er, I'm not sure how you could call a matter of value judgment, which is based ones basic beliefs, a matter of "fact"...how could you check if Christianity is monotheistic? Do you, like, weigh it on a scale, or see how fast it falls in a vacuum or something? I think that no matter what alleged "disproof" you could pose, a Christian could always claim that some things are mysterious to finite minds and still claim to believe in only one God; or just add another, up-to-then undiscovered attribute, to the one God (a la some forms of Hinduism). Anyhow, here are some non-Christian sources (some "hostile", some reputable and ostensibly disinterested):
"Three of the world's major religions -- the monotheist traditions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam -- were all born in the Middle East and are all inextricably linked to one another. Christianity was born from within the Jewish tradition, and Islam developed from both Christianity and Judaism." [17]
"The History of Monotheistic Religion. Jews, Christians, and Muslims all have a sense about the origins of their religion." [18]
"The term is applied particularly to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, as well as Zoroastrianism." [19]
". . .the largest monotheistic religious systems: Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Sikhism." [20]
"Batak religion is bound up with Islam and Christianity and the majority of Batak are Muslim or Christian. Contact with the monotheistic religions differs greatly from one Batak society to another." [21]
"While this monotheistic religion [Christianity] developed from Judaism, there are several key differences in its teachings." [22]
And I'm sure there are quite few more in the "101,000" results "for christianity "monotheistic religion"" on Google as I only browsed to the third page. » MonkeeSage « 01:22, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Do their adherents or their adversaries? I think that is the main question we have to keep going back to. The views of the vast majority of a professed religion will always have more relevance in the article about that religion than those of a vast majority of other religions (or no religions). That's just a simple edict of fairness. It would give undue weight to a view from without a group for it to displace the accepted view within the group. Space should be given for dissent and to represent the debates on the issues, but to push aside the most significant view in favor of others, in the name of fair representation, is a contradiction of terms. It is unfair to the group about which the article is written, to force their view to be filtered through the hostile views of outsiders. Those outside views can be represented, but not given equality with or priority over the view of the group in question, as the view of the group, is, by definition, the most important and relevant one to the article. » MonkeeSage « 00:50, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I think we can all agree that Christians profess monotheism. To me, that is exactly the same thing as monotheism (since monotheism is by definition a belief) but apparently there is some dispute over the definition of term. I also think that "Christians profess monotheism" is more neutral than saying "Christianity is regarded by its followers as monotheistic." The second statement has a negative connotation, is equivical, is weasly, is wordy, and is redundant because any religion is defined by its beliefs. If Christianity were to be defined by the beliefs of Islam, it would be Islam. However, Christianity is not defined by Islam, just as Judaism is not defined by Christianity (a point that has needed to be raised in several articles). Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 03:47, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Heather says, "I have two mommies." Jack Chick disagrees, and says that Heather only has one mommy and one mommy's lesbian lover. Clearly, Heather and Jack mean different things by the word "mommy"; Jack's definition encompasses only biological mommies (and perhaps heterosexual adoptive mommies) whereas Heather's definition is broader. Nonetheless, it is NPOV to say that Heather claims to have two mommies.
Likewise, Jack Chick (who is a Christian) claims to believe in one God. However, Hasan (who is a Muslim) claims that Jack actually believes in three gods. Hasan's claim with regards to Jack is analogous to Jack's claim with regards to Heather. Hasan and Jack are working with different definitions of "God", just as Jack and Heather use different definitions of "mommy". Nonetheless, it is NPOV to say that Jack professes a belief in one God. -- FOo 08:18, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Dear Friends: This discussion misses the point. It makes no difference if something is common knowledge or not, according to WP:CITE. Everything needs to be documented, even Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence. Anything that is not documented is subject to removal by another editor at any time. WP:V, WP:NOR. So, as silly as it seems, we need to document everything. So, Drogo, my friend, produce a reference that says, "Christianity is not monotheistic" and we can then do a "some"/"others" or change the statement to Christians believe there is only one God, or some such other thing.
At this time, however, we have one citation on this phrase. It is a scholarly dictionary and literally says, without qualification, that Christianity is monotheistic. Until a conflicting cite is provided, that is how it has to stay. -- CTSWyneken 03:30, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Here are some relevant verses from the Qur'an:
The first verse states that Jesus never told people to worship him or Mary as gods. Of course this suggests that Christians do this, but recognize this is not a proper critique of Trinitarianism, as Mary is not a member of the trinity, nor does it actually state that Christians are polytheistic.
Only one translation of the last verse speaks of other gods, and even here they're said to be joined with God. The point is better stated as, don't ascribe partners to God.
There is also no reason to accept Muhammad as a reputable scholarly source on Christianity. Timothy Usher 04:30, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, let's start listing reputable scholarly sources. I encourage people on both sides of the devate to add to this list. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 04:28, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I see nobody suggesting that the article should say Xty is not monotheistic. It has elements of monotheism AND elements of tritheism. The article cited below points out that every purported expression/explanation leans either too much to modalism or to tritheism - both of which are heresy. That article does not claim Xty is completely monotheistic with no elements of tritheism. Saying Xty is a "monotheistic religion" in the intro is an oversimplification and I see no reason to include it other than to have wikipedia endorse dogma -- JimWae 06:04, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I am not recommending anything additional be put in the article - rather that something controversial not be stated as fact. WP:NOR does not apply. -- JimWae 06:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
You are doing original research on WP:NOR now? -- JimWae 06:30, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
CTSWyneken is obviously right (per policy). The problem is not with the lack of sources; in fact there are so many sources that it's difficult to pinpoint the "most notable" ones for the various views. Time for a linguistic tally of common parlance. (I'll ignore forms like -istic and -ism which does not change the figures significantly). A Google search for "christianity" yields some 80 million hits, 1 million of which only contain the word "monotheistic", 200,000 both "monotheistic" and "polytheistic", 100,000 only "polytheistic". The latter two, together some 25% of the hits, generally deal with the Moslim criticism. One can safely say that in the US/Western world/Christianity-oriented English language monotheism has become synonymous with come to include the Trinity concept; criticism comes from people with a different concept called Thaweed. It's basically a translation problem. Thaweed does not translate as monotheism because monotheism encompasses the Christian concept (just like the word "god" in English generally calls up images of the God of the Christians). People who visit the English Wikipedia are supposed to speak English and understand the concepts behind the words. This is not to say we should ignore the difference. Like Sophia said, Wikipedia has a clear western-world-centric
systemic bias and we should do everything we can to remove that bias. We cannot change the meaning of the word monotheism which includes the Christian concept. We can point out the difference. If this can be done in the lead, great. Otherwise we had better leave the word "monotheism" out of the lead.
(Statistically, the question whether or not Christianity is monotheistic is not a big deal. Assertions of monotheism only involve 1.25% of the hits; discussion 0.4% or less.)
All the above still needs citations but I'm sure they won't differ significantly. And I think they should not end up in the lead. If only because I am not a native speaker of English and fully aware of the all-important translation aspects here - something is "lost in translation" if we translate "monotheism" into "thaweed" - I can't imagine an authoritative English-Arabic dictionary doing that (especially not if published in a predominantly Islamic country).
Finally think about consensus and what would happen if Moslim editors were present in proportions mirroring the real world... in that case a compromise (does it exist?) or outright removal of monotheistic from the lead would be mandated by the consensus process.
Sorry if this is rambles a bit, I'm in a hurry... AvB ÷ talk 07:40, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I think we're getting a little off track here. In the last section on "controversies" is the statement "Some Muslims argue that Trinitarian Christianity is a form of polytheism known as tritheism rather than monotheism.[citation needed]." So, let's see if we can find a citation from an authoritative Muslim source. We've already seen that the Qur'an does not specifically state that Christianity is tritheism. So, moving on: is there anything in the Hadith that makes that claim? Or, to speed this up: Is there an authoritative Muslim source (of any type) that we can cite here and thus remove the "citation needed" tag? Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 14:14, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I have yet to find a cite that says Muslims accuse Christians of tritheism. I have found cites that say Christians accuse Muslims of accusing Christians of tritheism, but that is not what Mulsims themselves say. Here's an example: "Furthermore, there is no truth in the assertion of Christian apologists and many scholars of religion that Muslim theologians have always misinterpreted the Christian doctrine of the Trinity (three in one) as a doctrine of tritheism (three gods)." Reference: Kung, Hans, "Christianity and World Religions: Dialogue with Islam," pg. 9. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 15:00, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Another cite making the same point: "In particular, Jesus is said to be God the Son, or the Son of God. As the Muslim questions details of this theology, the Christian characteristically forms a common explanation for our differences: He complains that Muslims do not understand the Trinity; that we are actually accusing Christians of Tritheism and other heresies." (emphasis added). This is from truereligion.org, a Muslim website.
So, I have to ask: is it verifiable that there are Muslims who say Christians are tritheistic? Or is this a Christian misunderstanding of what Muslims are saying? Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 15:18, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I rephrased the sentence so that it's halfway between the original and Alienus' proposal. I added two citations: the one from Alienus, which at least associates trinitarianism with polytheism, and the one by Dr. Miller, who argues that Christian apologists are misrepresenting Muslims by using the word "tritheism." That should (I hope) cover a range of Muslim responses. Now to find the other three citations needed as listed in the next section. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 15:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Timothy, you were right about it being a matter of definition. Monotheism is the belief in one God. But I have again changed my mind about whether its right to say in the article, "Christianity is monotheistic". Here's why: we don't know what Christians believe. We only know what they say they believe. Therefore, this everyone can agree is correct: Christianity is a religion whose adherants profess monotheism but Christianity is a monotheistic religion is both contradicted by Muslims, who say it isn't, and something that is impossible to know, as it requires knowing what is in the hearts of Christians, what they trully believe, as opposed to what they profess to belief. Please note, monotheism is not defined as "the profession of belief" but as believing. Drogo Underburrow 19:27, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
"Christianity is an Abrahamic religion centered on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as recounted in the New Testament. Most Christians profess a form of monotheism called trinitarianism, while others are nontrinitarian. Christians believe Jesus to be the Messiah, and thus refer to him as Jesus Christ. With an estimated 2.1 billion adherents in 2001, Christianity is the world's largest religion."
Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 19:38, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
It's not the scientific method, but there are recognized authorities on religion as well: on the religious side, you have theologians and clergy (both Christian and Muslim and anyone else who has commented); on the secular side, you have PhD's in the sociology of religion, philosophy of religion and the like. No, you can't broadly say that the Pope knows more about what exists than the average Buddhist, but you can definitely say that the Pope is a more credible source on Christian (or at least Catholic) beliefs than the Buddhist is, and that the Buddhist is a more credible source on Buddhist beliefs than the pope is. To say that "every person is just as credible as another" is to violate WP:RS. You say, "there is no need to cite an expert on Christianity to state that Muslims have one view or another about Christianity." True, but we do need to cite a verifiable and reliable Muslim authority. True, we cannot choose sides. We can only cite reliable, verifiable sources. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 22:02, 20 May 2006 (UTC)