This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I would like to add that the 'criticism' section links to an article that uses circular logic and a single POV to 'criticize' contempletive prayer. (E.g. the author uses Biblical quotes ad hoc to support his claims.) Unfortunately, as there is no universal understanding of 'union with God', any claim on its value is completely subjective, and opinion doesn't have a place in encyclopedic articles. Therefore, we aught to keep to the facts and describe contemplative prayer rather than put value judgements on it.
Needs a lot of work, general formatting to fit the standards. The external link at the bottom needs changed too - by no means is it universally agreed upon that contemplation is in any way "dangerous", so there's an apparent NPOV issue here. I suggest discussing in the body negative views on contemplation, not just linking to an alternate website. Maybe use that link as an example. Theli 93
I agree thoroughly about this piece failing minimal standards of scholarship. This article is remarkably biased and needs to be removed. It lacks objectivity and clearly seeks to promote one viewpoint. No alternative explanations are given and the writer presents highly judgemental conclusions without substantiating evidence. This is the poorest article that I have seen on Wikipedia.
I'll reformat a little bit to try to make it work. Any changes to my writing by anyone are, of course, appreciated. Theli 93
This article makes the claim that contemplative prayer and centering prayer are the same, and then gives the method of centering prayer as its description. In fact, in the Christian Tradition, the two are strongly distinct: centering prayer is a form of mental meditation, where contemplative prayer is a prayer of the soul. I can give a drastic re-write of this section if I don't hear any complaints.
Additionally, this article claims that contemplative prayer was in decline after the 14th century. To the contrary, it experienced wide acclaim in the 16th century do to the writings and works of St. John of the Cross and St. Therese of Avila, and remained a principal form of prayer in certan Christian groups before Thomas Merton's influence. Threej_lc
Actually you are wrong. Centering prayer and contemplation are precisely identical. Please see the articles on the monastery website at the bottom. If you can provide sources that point to a revival of contemplation during the dominance of scholasticism, please change that - as it is I am keeping things as they stand. Theli 93
I haven't found any reference on Wikipedia of modern/conteporary contemplatives, most notably Jens Soering, whose writings on the subject of Centering Prayer and Centering Pratice have been noted by Basil Pennington and Thomas Keating, among others. His manual, The Way Of The Prisoner, is a major contribution to the study of CP. I would start an article on Soering, but I fear the inevitable concentration on his incarceration and the Haysom murders. Cravenmonket 23:05, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Threej_lc: contemplative prayer is far older and more established than centering prayer. According to T. Keating, one of the founders of the centering prayer movement: "It is not contemplation in the strict sense, which in Catholic tradition has always been regarded as a pure gift of the Spirit, but rather it is a preparation for contemplation by reducing the obstacles caused by the hyperactivity of our minds and of our lives" ( http://www.centeringprayer.com/intimacy/intimacy01a.htm). David Chiang 02:02, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Also, how can it be said that contemplation suffered decline from the scholastic period through the 20th century when St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross, two of the most significant exponents of contemplative prayer, lived in the 16th century? I don't understand this point. David Chiang 02:07, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I see, the history section is drawn from the Centering Prayer literature and is essentially a history of the roots of Centering Prayer. Since "Centering prayer" is the more precise term and even at least one of its proponents is careful to point out the difference between centering prayer and contemplative prayer, I am going to move most of this article over to Centering prayer (which already exists but is very short) unless someone objects.... David Chiang 14:37, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
With all due respect, please note that:
I do not think this is consonant with Wikipedia's policies. David Chiang 22:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I have removed this comment from the article, as it seemed to belong here better:
I have removed the source - Contemplative Prayer, the heart of Mysticism in Think On These Things by Gary Gilley from this article, as it does not comply with the guidelines for WP:V, specifically WP:sps:
Per WP:V
Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason self-published media, whether books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, Internet forum postings, tweets etc., are largely not acceptable.[nb 4] Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. However, caution should be exercised when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so.
While Gilley has published three books I can find, none deal with Contemplative Prayer. A church website is clearly self-published and has no place in Wikipedia.-- Lyonscc ( talk) 17:29, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
This article needs help, and big time help. There are empty sections(!!!) and few references and it is mostly haphazard sentences. I will try to clean it up in a few days, in the meantime suggestions will be appreciated. History2007 ( talk) 09:00, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
There is not much substance in Christian contemplation and it has no sources and is just floating there. Should merge. History2007 ( talk) 17:28, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Given that there is no objection, I think we can merge. If you want to do it, please do, else I will do it soon. But overall, several of these prayer articles are of low quality. To clean them up, we need a better structure anyway. I have almost finished fixing Lectio Divina - which got me to this page. And I had previously fixed Christian meditation to get a good article flag. I think we need to use the 3 level "accepted structure" that the articles refer to, i.e.: "Christian X", where X is in {prayer, meditation, contemplation}. Then there should be a top level short article that explains the 3 level structure and refers to them. The article Christian prayer is also in semi-hopeless form and needs to be fixed. Christian worship also needs major help. The worst one is probably prayer for the dead, and needs some type of resurrection at some later point. But all in good time, I guess. History2007 ( talk) 09:20, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
The article was merged via discussion on Talk:Contemplative_prayer#Merge_with_Christian_contemplation. History2007 ( talk) 13:14, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Where can I find examples of religiously neutral articles on similar topics to help in revising this article?
Most specifically I'd like to include other perspectives on the same experiences, like rational / skeptic / neurologist / psychologist interpretations of these exact same phenomena.
Or at the very least a link to "further reading" on such perspectives. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1010:B127:6A5D:C45C:B5F4:E434:4BFF ( talk) 17:08, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
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I've moved the content from Christian contemplation to Contemplative prayer, since that is the proper topic of that content. "Christian contemplation" can be used as a disambiguation page. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:04, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
I've moved the content from Theoria (Eastern Orthodox Christianity) to here; it's the same topic. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:29, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
I've moved a substantial amount of information from Christian contemplation to Mystical theology. See Talk:Theoria (Eastern Orthodox Christianity) for the history of this information. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:05, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
To make things even more complicated, I've merged "Contemplative prayer" back into Christian contemplation, to which I've also moved the content from Theoria (Eastern Orthodox Christianity). And that content was first at Theoria, which I had moved to Theoria (Eastern Orthodox Christianity). 'That's all, folks'... (sorry for the complicated merge & move history). Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:50, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
I must state for the record that I think you did a very poor job on this article. I disagree with how this article was taken over for someone who appears to have maybe a surface and very Western Eurocentric POV and an atheist one. LoveMonkey ( talk) 17:42, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
So again provide your sources here on the talkpage. Here I will start here is an academic book published by an academic source which is peer reviewed. It does not treat this subject in the way that your edits have made this article treat the same subject. Stanley S. Haraka (1983), Toward Transfigured Life: The Theoria of Eastern Orthodox Ethics, Light and Life Publishing Co. LoveMonkey ( talk) 18:59, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
Thanks! That's a good quote, and a very interesting distinction. Allow me the time to let that sink in. Was that distinction also clearly made in Theoria (Eastern Orthodox Christianity)? It also said:
In the Roman Rite (sometimes called the Latin or Western) Catholic Church, terms derived from Latin contemplatio, such as the English word "contemplation", are generally used in languages that are largely derived from Latin, rather than the Greek term theoria. The equivalence of the Latin and Greek terms[88] was noted by John Cassian, whose writings influenced the whole of Western monasticism,[89] in his Conferences.[90] However, Catholic writers do sometimes use the Greek term.[91]
So, that section does say that the two terms are equivalent, doesn't it? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 20:20, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
According to the standard ascetic formulation of this process, there are three stages [of theosis]: katharsis or purification, theoria or illumination, and theosis or deification (also referred to as union with God).[43]
I've copied info from Mystical theology to emphasize the difference between eastern and western practices/ideas. NB: the lead clearly states:
Christianity took up the use of both the Greek (theoria) and Latin (contemplatio, contemplation) terminology to describe various forms of prayer and the process of coming to know God. Eastern and Western traditions of Christianity grew apart as they incorporated the general notion of theoria into their respective teachings.
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:40, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
I've also added some specifications diff diff as for which practice/terminology belongs to which church. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:56, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
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I've moved the content from Christian contemplation to Contemplative prayer, since that is the proper topic of that content. "Christian contemplation" can be used as a disambiguation page. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:03, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
And to make things even more complicated, I've merged "Contemplative prayer" back into Christian contemplation, to which I've also moved the content from Theoria (Eastern Orthodox Christianity). And that content was first at Theoria, which I had moved to Theoria (Eastern Orthodox Churches). 'That's all, folks'... (sorry for the complicated merge & move history). Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:47, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I would like to add that the 'criticism' section links to an article that uses circular logic and a single POV to 'criticize' contempletive prayer. (E.g. the author uses Biblical quotes ad hoc to support his claims.) Unfortunately, as there is no universal understanding of 'union with God', any claim on its value is completely subjective, and opinion doesn't have a place in encyclopedic articles. Therefore, we aught to keep to the facts and describe contemplative prayer rather than put value judgements on it.
Needs a lot of work, general formatting to fit the standards. The external link at the bottom needs changed too - by no means is it universally agreed upon that contemplation is in any way "dangerous", so there's an apparent NPOV issue here. I suggest discussing in the body negative views on contemplation, not just linking to an alternate website. Maybe use that link as an example. Theli 93
I agree thoroughly about this piece failing minimal standards of scholarship. This article is remarkably biased and needs to be removed. It lacks objectivity and clearly seeks to promote one viewpoint. No alternative explanations are given and the writer presents highly judgemental conclusions without substantiating evidence. This is the poorest article that I have seen on Wikipedia.
I'll reformat a little bit to try to make it work. Any changes to my writing by anyone are, of course, appreciated. Theli 93
This article makes the claim that contemplative prayer and centering prayer are the same, and then gives the method of centering prayer as its description. In fact, in the Christian Tradition, the two are strongly distinct: centering prayer is a form of mental meditation, where contemplative prayer is a prayer of the soul. I can give a drastic re-write of this section if I don't hear any complaints.
Additionally, this article claims that contemplative prayer was in decline after the 14th century. To the contrary, it experienced wide acclaim in the 16th century do to the writings and works of St. John of the Cross and St. Therese of Avila, and remained a principal form of prayer in certan Christian groups before Thomas Merton's influence. Threej_lc
Actually you are wrong. Centering prayer and contemplation are precisely identical. Please see the articles on the monastery website at the bottom. If you can provide sources that point to a revival of contemplation during the dominance of scholasticism, please change that - as it is I am keeping things as they stand. Theli 93
I haven't found any reference on Wikipedia of modern/conteporary contemplatives, most notably Jens Soering, whose writings on the subject of Centering Prayer and Centering Pratice have been noted by Basil Pennington and Thomas Keating, among others. His manual, The Way Of The Prisoner, is a major contribution to the study of CP. I would start an article on Soering, but I fear the inevitable concentration on his incarceration and the Haysom murders. Cravenmonket 23:05, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Threej_lc: contemplative prayer is far older and more established than centering prayer. According to T. Keating, one of the founders of the centering prayer movement: "It is not contemplation in the strict sense, which in Catholic tradition has always been regarded as a pure gift of the Spirit, but rather it is a preparation for contemplation by reducing the obstacles caused by the hyperactivity of our minds and of our lives" ( http://www.centeringprayer.com/intimacy/intimacy01a.htm). David Chiang 02:02, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Also, how can it be said that contemplation suffered decline from the scholastic period through the 20th century when St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross, two of the most significant exponents of contemplative prayer, lived in the 16th century? I don't understand this point. David Chiang 02:07, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I see, the history section is drawn from the Centering Prayer literature and is essentially a history of the roots of Centering Prayer. Since "Centering prayer" is the more precise term and even at least one of its proponents is careful to point out the difference between centering prayer and contemplative prayer, I am going to move most of this article over to Centering prayer (which already exists but is very short) unless someone objects.... David Chiang 14:37, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
With all due respect, please note that:
I do not think this is consonant with Wikipedia's policies. David Chiang 22:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I have removed this comment from the article, as it seemed to belong here better:
I have removed the source - Contemplative Prayer, the heart of Mysticism in Think On These Things by Gary Gilley from this article, as it does not comply with the guidelines for WP:V, specifically WP:sps:
Per WP:V
Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason self-published media, whether books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, Internet forum postings, tweets etc., are largely not acceptable.[nb 4] Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. However, caution should be exercised when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so.
While Gilley has published three books I can find, none deal with Contemplative Prayer. A church website is clearly self-published and has no place in Wikipedia.-- Lyonscc ( talk) 17:29, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
This article needs help, and big time help. There are empty sections(!!!) and few references and it is mostly haphazard sentences. I will try to clean it up in a few days, in the meantime suggestions will be appreciated. History2007 ( talk) 09:00, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
There is not much substance in Christian contemplation and it has no sources and is just floating there. Should merge. History2007 ( talk) 17:28, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Given that there is no objection, I think we can merge. If you want to do it, please do, else I will do it soon. But overall, several of these prayer articles are of low quality. To clean them up, we need a better structure anyway. I have almost finished fixing Lectio Divina - which got me to this page. And I had previously fixed Christian meditation to get a good article flag. I think we need to use the 3 level "accepted structure" that the articles refer to, i.e.: "Christian X", where X is in {prayer, meditation, contemplation}. Then there should be a top level short article that explains the 3 level structure and refers to them. The article Christian prayer is also in semi-hopeless form and needs to be fixed. Christian worship also needs major help. The worst one is probably prayer for the dead, and needs some type of resurrection at some later point. But all in good time, I guess. History2007 ( talk) 09:20, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
The article was merged via discussion on Talk:Contemplative_prayer#Merge_with_Christian_contemplation. History2007 ( talk) 13:14, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Where can I find examples of religiously neutral articles on similar topics to help in revising this article?
Most specifically I'd like to include other perspectives on the same experiences, like rational / skeptic / neurologist / psychologist interpretations of these exact same phenomena.
Or at the very least a link to "further reading" on such perspectives. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1010:B127:6A5D:C45C:B5F4:E434:4BFF ( talk) 17:08, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Christian contemplation. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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I've moved the content from Christian contemplation to Contemplative prayer, since that is the proper topic of that content. "Christian contemplation" can be used as a disambiguation page. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:04, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
I've moved the content from Theoria (Eastern Orthodox Christianity) to here; it's the same topic. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:29, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
I've moved a substantial amount of information from Christian contemplation to Mystical theology. See Talk:Theoria (Eastern Orthodox Christianity) for the history of this information. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:05, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
To make things even more complicated, I've merged "Contemplative prayer" back into Christian contemplation, to which I've also moved the content from Theoria (Eastern Orthodox Christianity). And that content was first at Theoria, which I had moved to Theoria (Eastern Orthodox Christianity). 'That's all, folks'... (sorry for the complicated merge & move history). Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:50, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
I must state for the record that I think you did a very poor job on this article. I disagree with how this article was taken over for someone who appears to have maybe a surface and very Western Eurocentric POV and an atheist one. LoveMonkey ( talk) 17:42, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
So again provide your sources here on the talkpage. Here I will start here is an academic book published by an academic source which is peer reviewed. It does not treat this subject in the way that your edits have made this article treat the same subject. Stanley S. Haraka (1983), Toward Transfigured Life: The Theoria of Eastern Orthodox Ethics, Light and Life Publishing Co. LoveMonkey ( talk) 18:59, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
Thanks! That's a good quote, and a very interesting distinction. Allow me the time to let that sink in. Was that distinction also clearly made in Theoria (Eastern Orthodox Christianity)? It also said:
In the Roman Rite (sometimes called the Latin or Western) Catholic Church, terms derived from Latin contemplatio, such as the English word "contemplation", are generally used in languages that are largely derived from Latin, rather than the Greek term theoria. The equivalence of the Latin and Greek terms[88] was noted by John Cassian, whose writings influenced the whole of Western monasticism,[89] in his Conferences.[90] However, Catholic writers do sometimes use the Greek term.[91]
So, that section does say that the two terms are equivalent, doesn't it? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 20:20, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
According to the standard ascetic formulation of this process, there are three stages [of theosis]: katharsis or purification, theoria or illumination, and theosis or deification (also referred to as union with God).[43]
I've copied info from Mystical theology to emphasize the difference between eastern and western practices/ideas. NB: the lead clearly states:
Christianity took up the use of both the Greek (theoria) and Latin (contemplatio, contemplation) terminology to describe various forms of prayer and the process of coming to know God. Eastern and Western traditions of Christianity grew apart as they incorporated the general notion of theoria into their respective teachings.
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:40, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
I've also added some specifications diff diff as for which practice/terminology belongs to which church. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:56, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:52, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
I've moved the content from Christian contemplation to Contemplative prayer, since that is the proper topic of that content. "Christian contemplation" can be used as a disambiguation page. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:03, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
And to make things even more complicated, I've merged "Contemplative prayer" back into Christian contemplation, to which I've also moved the content from Theoria (Eastern Orthodox Christianity). And that content was first at Theoria, which I had moved to Theoria (Eastern Orthodox Churches). 'That's all, folks'... (sorry for the complicated merge & move history). Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:47, 7 April 2017 (UTC)