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Christian Universalism should not REDIRECT to Christian Reconciliation. They are simular, but Christian Universalism is a much broader catagory which should include the following Wiki articles:
Discussion welcome, changes made to reflect the complexity of the Christian Universalism issue. StudentoftheWord 19:15, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Set out that trinitarian dogma and unitiarian logic differs radically before you start explaining the term universalism.
Weatherlawyer ( talk) 03:58, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
If "Christian Universalism" is distinct from "Universal Reconciliation" then please write an article on one that is not merely a copy-and-paste of the other. Right now this article is a near-identical duplication of the lede of Universal Reconciliation and should therefore redirect to that article for the time being. Redirecting. Mike R 15:11, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
I much enjoyed reading this article. But I note that it seems to be entirely USA-centric from about 1700 onward. David.Throop ( talk) 22:08, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Also, I am wondering whether the general ideas of Christian Universalism apply to all Christians, or all of humanity. The article is vague concerning this distinction. --
DMP47 (
talk)
19:14, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
I came looking for information on New England Universalist beliefs and the Universalist connection to Spiritualism. The article seems to be largely focused on contemporary beliefs at the expense of historical development. Unitarians and Universalists were not always united as they are now, and the historical distinction needs to be made by someone who knows the history.
MarkBul ( talk) 17:35, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
"The first five of these beliefs were found in the Five Principles of Faith adopted in 1899 by the Universalist General Convention, a historical Christian denomination which was later called the Universalist Church of America.[5] All six of these beliefs are found in the statement of faith adopted in 2007 by the Christian Universalist Association.[6]"
I only see five beliefs listed with bullet points. Why are six beliefs mentioned in the second sentence?
Removed 'Scotch' because it's meaningless. Scotus and Eriugena meant the same thing at the time: Irish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.74.64.44 ( talk) 03:41, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Most of this article is busy with establishing that universal reconciliation was a belief present in early Christianity. This is not the place to do this, as we have a dedicated article, at Universal reconciliation. The topic of this article should remain restricted to the Christian denomination of the 1770s to the present known as "Christian Universalism". It is also pointless to dwell on the fact that Christian Universalists believe in God and Jesus Christ etc. since they share this conviction with all Christians, and it is sufficient to just say they are a Christian denomination. The salient point is their belief in universal reconciliation, which is certainly not shared by most other denominations. -- dab (𒁳) 11:45, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
This article has a major flaw: Universalism is not the same belief as Ultimate Reconciliation; not even from the narrowest Christian definition. This article blurs the two into a muddy topic. That is the cause of some of the disagreement I'm reading. To drastically over-simplify the difference; Universalism means everyone gets a "pass," while Ultimate Reconciliation recognizes that the unrepentant get punished, but all will eventually be reconciled to Christ. --LanceHaverkamp 17:46, 13 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lance W. Haverkamp ( talk • contribs)
The article claims:
Are you saying this is wrong? Then please present better references establishing what the actual principles adopted were. If it is correct, I don't see how you can argue that Christian Universalism is not characterized by the belief in universal reconciliation? After all, the other four principles, belief in God, Jesus Christ, the soul and the reality of sin is accepted by every Christian denomination I have ever heard of. Thus, principles 1 to 4 make "Christian Universalism" Christian, while principle 5 distinguishes it as Univeralism. -- dab (𒁳) 11:58, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, but what is there in this article that does not duplicate universal salvation article? In ictu oculi ( talk) 01:41, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
It is also about the 19th century religious movement. The article could be {{ split}} into Universalist Church of America and Universal reconciliation. -- dab (𒁳) 12:01, 3 December 2010 (UTC) That suggestion makes sense. The duplicate content could be redistributed and a disambiguation page left In ictu oculi ( talk) 20:50, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
Christian Universalism is a religious tradition that includes Universal reconciliation, a.k.a. Universal Salvation. I argue that maintaining both pages is necessary, as Christian Universalism includes so much more than Universal reconciliation. The article on Christian Universalism describes the history and beliefs (note: beliefs, plural) of the tradition, whereas the article on Universasl reconciliation is about the singular belief of Universal reconciliation. It would be unnecessary and confusing to merge them. Again, my opinion. Americanseeker ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:18, 15 December 2010 (UTC).
I quote from the article itself: "Christian Universalism is a school of Christian theology which includes the belief in Universal reconciliation." Emphasis on the word "includes." Americanseeker ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:22, 15 December 2010 (UTC).
I believe the two concepts are distinct enough that they're fine the way they are. Gateman1997 ( talk) 19:07, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
This article barely even touches on Christian teachings of universal reconciliation before modern times Where are all the pre-modern fathers and theologians that modern denominations build on (Figures like Origen and the Cappadocian fathers, various medievals such as H. Julian of Norwich)? They are not part of this article. As such, it is quite incomplete.
F.W. Farrar's public domain book Mercy and Judgment should be a very useful resource for expanding this article. 74.133.104.185 ( talk) 03:13, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Agreed. 174.4.163.53 ( talk) 12:31, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 05:31, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
We read in 2 Corinthians 5:19 that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them;" and that the veil which obscures one's realization of what they have is removed through faith in Jesus. In 2 Corinthians 4:4 we read "the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." 81.11.230.198 ( talk) 07:52, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
Not sure what you are trying to say? Sethie ( talk) 11:00, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
I have begun to work on the section which was titled "Reforming 'hell' biblically through discussion across denominational lines"
I have renamed it, removed some of what seemed like OR and added what I consider a strong citation.
Any input welcome Sethie ( talk) 11:00, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
I moved this out, because I don't believe it is accurate- not all universalists believe in theosis, and many demonimations believe in theosis, just not for all people.
"The two central beliefs which distinguish Christian Universalism from mainstream Christianity are universal reconciliation (all will eventually be reconciled to God-without exception, the penalty for sin is not irrevocable at the point of death, i.e. doctrines of everlasting damnation to hell and annihilationism are rejected) and theosis (all souls will ultimately be reconciled and conformed to the image of the glorified resurrected Christ)." Sethie ( talk) 12:48, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
I moved out of the article this because I don't think it belongs in the intro- and actually I think it is quite innaccurate-
"Many in the Universalist camp believe that all human beings are already reconciled to God even if they are unaware of it. We read in 2 Corinthians 5:19 that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them;" and that the veil which obscures one's realization of what they have is removed through faith in Jesus. In 2 Corinthians 4:4 we read "the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."
I don't know that many believe that at all!
Any input is welcome Sethie ( talk) 13:27, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
It would be great to get some quptes from the Bible in this article, a section on Biblical foundations of universalism maybe?... I am working on pruning that section over at universalism] anyones input welcome.
Also, I found the following inside this article, I have moved it here. It would be nice to put some of the artcle, though I think it would need to be cleaned up quite a bit:
Scriptural support Christian Universalists claim that Jesus taught Universalist principles including universal reconciliation and the divine origin and destiny of all people, and that these teachings were further developed by Saint Paul, Saint Peter, and Saint John the Apostle. They also argue that some Universalist principles were taught or foreshadowed in the Old Testament.
Christian Universalists
who? often point to the following Biblical teachings as evidence of Universalism
citation neededCite error: A <ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page).
--> Sethie ( talk) 02:43, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
References
This section was recently deleted, I think the following are significant and have strong enough citation to stay:
The entire section was recently chopped... I think some of it is relevant- here are the ones I think could stay in- input welcome,
"Modern Exponents of Christian Universalism"
The conversion of Bishop Carlton Pearson to a form of Universalism and his subsequent excommunication by the Joint College of African-American Pentecostal Bishops in 2004 caused Christian Universalism to gain increased media attention because of Pearson's popularity and celebrity status. [1]
In 2007, Eric Stetson and Kalen Fristad gathered a group of thirteen ministers and evangelists from several denominations to found the
Christian Universalist Association, an
interdenominational organization for churches, ministries, and individuals who believe in Christian Universalism.
[2]
About the current state of Christian Universalism, they state:
"Many Christian philosophers, theologians, writers, and scholars are coming to believe in a Universalist interpretation of Christianity. A rapidly growing number of books are being published on the subject of Christian Universalism. Hundreds of Christian Universalist websites have exploded across the internet over the past few years, run by people with a wide variety of religious backgrounds and viewpoints. It appears that Universalism is beginning to develop into one of the most significant ecumenical movements among Christians of our time."
[3]
Sethie ( talk) 18:54, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
References
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Removed "New Jerusalem" and "Heaven" from lead sentence, while some universalists may have a vision of what Universal Reconciliation looks like, I do not believe that this is a key part of Universalist theology. Maybe we could have a section on universalist vision of what universal reconciliation will look like? Input welcomed Sethie ( talk) 04:13, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
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I came to believe in universalism and I believe there are many misconceptions. I do not believe all people will be saved without believing the Gospel without a repentant heart. I believe from what I read in scripture that all unbelievers will be thrown into the Lake of Fire and be there until they repent and are reconciled with God. MrLW97 ( talk) 22:46, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
It's not clear that Trinitarian universalism is historically or even theologically distinct from other forms of Christian universalism. The history section of Trinitarian universalism already discusses Christian universalism more broadly, and the theological discussion is likewise more broadly applicable. Daask ( talk) 14:43, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
From the article:
"According to the New Schaff–Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge (1912), over the first five hundred years of Christian history there are records of at least six theological schools: Four of these schools were Universalist (one each in Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa–Nisibis), one taught conditional immortality (in Ephesus), and the last taught eternal hell (in Carthage or Rome).[24]"
But this isn't quite right. The article in Schaff-Herzog does include the claim that four of the six schools were universalist, but then it backtracks and says most modern scholars would have problems with labelling them as universalist. In other words, Schaff-Herzog does not throw its unqualified weight behind this claim. We should have something better than a century-old source that can't make up its mind to back a claim like this. 98.28.188.184 ( talk) 18:15, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
Is there no critique of the idea of 'universalism' from a Christian point of view? There actually should be many, since it is rather misleading and Jesus Christ actually rejected universalism several times. 105.12.1.35 ( talk) 09:50, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
This is the
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Christian universalism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Christian Universalism should not REDIRECT to Christian Reconciliation. They are simular, but Christian Universalism is a much broader catagory which should include the following Wiki articles:
Discussion welcome, changes made to reflect the complexity of the Christian Universalism issue. StudentoftheWord 19:15, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Set out that trinitarian dogma and unitiarian logic differs radically before you start explaining the term universalism.
Weatherlawyer ( talk) 03:58, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
If "Christian Universalism" is distinct from "Universal Reconciliation" then please write an article on one that is not merely a copy-and-paste of the other. Right now this article is a near-identical duplication of the lede of Universal Reconciliation and should therefore redirect to that article for the time being. Redirecting. Mike R 15:11, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
I much enjoyed reading this article. But I note that it seems to be entirely USA-centric from about 1700 onward. David.Throop ( talk) 22:08, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Also, I am wondering whether the general ideas of Christian Universalism apply to all Christians, or all of humanity. The article is vague concerning this distinction. --
DMP47 (
talk)
19:14, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
I came looking for information on New England Universalist beliefs and the Universalist connection to Spiritualism. The article seems to be largely focused on contemporary beliefs at the expense of historical development. Unitarians and Universalists were not always united as they are now, and the historical distinction needs to be made by someone who knows the history.
MarkBul ( talk) 17:35, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
"The first five of these beliefs were found in the Five Principles of Faith adopted in 1899 by the Universalist General Convention, a historical Christian denomination which was later called the Universalist Church of America.[5] All six of these beliefs are found in the statement of faith adopted in 2007 by the Christian Universalist Association.[6]"
I only see five beliefs listed with bullet points. Why are six beliefs mentioned in the second sentence?
Removed 'Scotch' because it's meaningless. Scotus and Eriugena meant the same thing at the time: Irish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.74.64.44 ( talk) 03:41, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Most of this article is busy with establishing that universal reconciliation was a belief present in early Christianity. This is not the place to do this, as we have a dedicated article, at Universal reconciliation. The topic of this article should remain restricted to the Christian denomination of the 1770s to the present known as "Christian Universalism". It is also pointless to dwell on the fact that Christian Universalists believe in God and Jesus Christ etc. since they share this conviction with all Christians, and it is sufficient to just say they are a Christian denomination. The salient point is their belief in universal reconciliation, which is certainly not shared by most other denominations. -- dab (𒁳) 11:45, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
This article has a major flaw: Universalism is not the same belief as Ultimate Reconciliation; not even from the narrowest Christian definition. This article blurs the two into a muddy topic. That is the cause of some of the disagreement I'm reading. To drastically over-simplify the difference; Universalism means everyone gets a "pass," while Ultimate Reconciliation recognizes that the unrepentant get punished, but all will eventually be reconciled to Christ. --LanceHaverkamp 17:46, 13 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lance W. Haverkamp ( talk • contribs)
The article claims:
Are you saying this is wrong? Then please present better references establishing what the actual principles adopted were. If it is correct, I don't see how you can argue that Christian Universalism is not characterized by the belief in universal reconciliation? After all, the other four principles, belief in God, Jesus Christ, the soul and the reality of sin is accepted by every Christian denomination I have ever heard of. Thus, principles 1 to 4 make "Christian Universalism" Christian, while principle 5 distinguishes it as Univeralism. -- dab (𒁳) 11:58, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, but what is there in this article that does not duplicate universal salvation article? In ictu oculi ( talk) 01:41, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
It is also about the 19th century religious movement. The article could be {{ split}} into Universalist Church of America and Universal reconciliation. -- dab (𒁳) 12:01, 3 December 2010 (UTC) That suggestion makes sense. The duplicate content could be redistributed and a disambiguation page left In ictu oculi ( talk) 20:50, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
Christian Universalism is a religious tradition that includes Universal reconciliation, a.k.a. Universal Salvation. I argue that maintaining both pages is necessary, as Christian Universalism includes so much more than Universal reconciliation. The article on Christian Universalism describes the history and beliefs (note: beliefs, plural) of the tradition, whereas the article on Universasl reconciliation is about the singular belief of Universal reconciliation. It would be unnecessary and confusing to merge them. Again, my opinion. Americanseeker ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:18, 15 December 2010 (UTC).
I quote from the article itself: "Christian Universalism is a school of Christian theology which includes the belief in Universal reconciliation." Emphasis on the word "includes." Americanseeker ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:22, 15 December 2010 (UTC).
I believe the two concepts are distinct enough that they're fine the way they are. Gateman1997 ( talk) 19:07, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
This article barely even touches on Christian teachings of universal reconciliation before modern times Where are all the pre-modern fathers and theologians that modern denominations build on (Figures like Origen and the Cappadocian fathers, various medievals such as H. Julian of Norwich)? They are not part of this article. As such, it is quite incomplete.
F.W. Farrar's public domain book Mercy and Judgment should be a very useful resource for expanding this article. 74.133.104.185 ( talk) 03:13, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Agreed. 174.4.163.53 ( talk) 12:31, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 05:31, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
We read in 2 Corinthians 5:19 that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them;" and that the veil which obscures one's realization of what they have is removed through faith in Jesus. In 2 Corinthians 4:4 we read "the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." 81.11.230.198 ( talk) 07:52, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
Not sure what you are trying to say? Sethie ( talk) 11:00, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
I have begun to work on the section which was titled "Reforming 'hell' biblically through discussion across denominational lines"
I have renamed it, removed some of what seemed like OR and added what I consider a strong citation.
Any input welcome Sethie ( talk) 11:00, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
I moved this out, because I don't believe it is accurate- not all universalists believe in theosis, and many demonimations believe in theosis, just not for all people.
"The two central beliefs which distinguish Christian Universalism from mainstream Christianity are universal reconciliation (all will eventually be reconciled to God-without exception, the penalty for sin is not irrevocable at the point of death, i.e. doctrines of everlasting damnation to hell and annihilationism are rejected) and theosis (all souls will ultimately be reconciled and conformed to the image of the glorified resurrected Christ)." Sethie ( talk) 12:48, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
I moved out of the article this because I don't think it belongs in the intro- and actually I think it is quite innaccurate-
"Many in the Universalist camp believe that all human beings are already reconciled to God even if they are unaware of it. We read in 2 Corinthians 5:19 that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them;" and that the veil which obscures one's realization of what they have is removed through faith in Jesus. In 2 Corinthians 4:4 we read "the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."
I don't know that many believe that at all!
Any input is welcome Sethie ( talk) 13:27, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
It would be great to get some quptes from the Bible in this article, a section on Biblical foundations of universalism maybe?... I am working on pruning that section over at universalism] anyones input welcome.
Also, I found the following inside this article, I have moved it here. It would be nice to put some of the artcle, though I think it would need to be cleaned up quite a bit:
Scriptural support Christian Universalists claim that Jesus taught Universalist principles including universal reconciliation and the divine origin and destiny of all people, and that these teachings were further developed by Saint Paul, Saint Peter, and Saint John the Apostle. They also argue that some Universalist principles were taught or foreshadowed in the Old Testament.
Christian Universalists
who? often point to the following Biblical teachings as evidence of Universalism
citation neededCite error: A <ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page).
--> Sethie ( talk) 02:43, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
References
This section was recently deleted, I think the following are significant and have strong enough citation to stay:
The entire section was recently chopped... I think some of it is relevant- here are the ones I think could stay in- input welcome,
"Modern Exponents of Christian Universalism"
The conversion of Bishop Carlton Pearson to a form of Universalism and his subsequent excommunication by the Joint College of African-American Pentecostal Bishops in 2004 caused Christian Universalism to gain increased media attention because of Pearson's popularity and celebrity status. [1]
In 2007, Eric Stetson and Kalen Fristad gathered a group of thirteen ministers and evangelists from several denominations to found the
Christian Universalist Association, an
interdenominational organization for churches, ministries, and individuals who believe in Christian Universalism.
[2]
About the current state of Christian Universalism, they state:
"Many Christian philosophers, theologians, writers, and scholars are coming to believe in a Universalist interpretation of Christianity. A rapidly growing number of books are being published on the subject of Christian Universalism. Hundreds of Christian Universalist websites have exploded across the internet over the past few years, run by people with a wide variety of religious backgrounds and viewpoints. It appears that Universalism is beginning to develop into one of the most significant ecumenical movements among Christians of our time."
[3]
Sethie ( talk) 18:54, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
References
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Removed "New Jerusalem" and "Heaven" from lead sentence, while some universalists may have a vision of what Universal Reconciliation looks like, I do not believe that this is a key part of Universalist theology. Maybe we could have a section on universalist vision of what universal reconciliation will look like? Input welcomed Sethie ( talk) 04:13, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
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I came to believe in universalism and I believe there are many misconceptions. I do not believe all people will be saved without believing the Gospel without a repentant heart. I believe from what I read in scripture that all unbelievers will be thrown into the Lake of Fire and be there until they repent and are reconciled with God. MrLW97 ( talk) 22:46, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
It's not clear that Trinitarian universalism is historically or even theologically distinct from other forms of Christian universalism. The history section of Trinitarian universalism already discusses Christian universalism more broadly, and the theological discussion is likewise more broadly applicable. Daask ( talk) 14:43, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
From the article:
"According to the New Schaff–Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge (1912), over the first five hundred years of Christian history there are records of at least six theological schools: Four of these schools were Universalist (one each in Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa–Nisibis), one taught conditional immortality (in Ephesus), and the last taught eternal hell (in Carthage or Rome).[24]"
But this isn't quite right. The article in Schaff-Herzog does include the claim that four of the six schools were universalist, but then it backtracks and says most modern scholars would have problems with labelling them as universalist. In other words, Schaff-Herzog does not throw its unqualified weight behind this claim. We should have something better than a century-old source that can't make up its mind to back a claim like this. 98.28.188.184 ( talk) 18:15, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
Is there no critique of the idea of 'universalism' from a Christian point of view? There actually should be many, since it is rather misleading and Jesus Christ actually rejected universalism several times. 105.12.1.35 ( talk) 09:50, 3 April 2023 (UTC)