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warum mir das erst in der spanischen version auffällt - zwischen gründer und an neu gegründeter zeitschrift gleich mitgearbeitet ist ja doch a bisserl nen unterschied, was stimmt denn jetzt? dann fehlt ja was in der deutschen version.-- Das-Geheimnis-der-Sphinx ( talk) 21:45, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
There is a WP:COI in this article. As McWien therefore is blocked on German Wikipedia, the author and one of his friends now play the same game in en:WP. This friend in en:WP called Das-Geheimnis-der-Sphinx, in ge:WP the same account has another name (we know this, just have a look at the discussion pages, you'll realize at once), (And also in es:WP). There are several things not correctly sourced. The German Article is blocked as well because of edit-wars. -- Robertsan ( talk) 18:08, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
> Studio Molotov: The Photograph collectors' resource directory > John Dugdale: catalogue by Studio Molotov, Vienna 1984 > Marcus Leatherdale: catalogue listed > Robert Mapplethorpe: included in catalogue Fotografie 83, already listed in article > Todd Watts: http://www.toddwatts.com/toddwatts_exhibitions.html > Joel-Peter Witkin: included in catalogue Fotografie 83, already listed in article -- 88.165.218.161 ( talk) 01:43, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
I ask that all conversations pertaining to the alleged conflict of interest be taken to the associated discussion section here at thhe conflict of interest noticeboard. Things are a little unclear at this point and I think it would be beneficial to everyone and Wikipedia if we have this conversation at a centralized location. Thank you. OlYeller21 Talktome 19:34, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Warning user Robertsan because of his vandalism in this article, see [2] McWien ( talk) 21:49, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
Frankly I admit, that I have lost my temper in der German WP because of arguments ignored and reality denied. Therefore I was blocked there. I went on to work in the en:WP and have done some translation work here and created one new article [3], all during the last month. (I also translated this article for the Spanish WP, see [4]). My work has not been disputed here (nor in the Spanish WP) till Robertsan came over from the German WP. I would like to explain my concerns with Robertsan's changes in this article here, as I intend to ask for a Third Opinion. In German WP there is a bitter battle going about this article [5], [6], 22.8.2011, 10.9.2011, 21.9.2011, 30.9.2011, 30.9.2011, 6.11.2011 - a battle, by the way, that continued after I was blocked, and Robertsan is still participating in this battle. I refrain from reverting Robertsan's changes right away as I would like to - in order to prevent another edit war and the spilling over of the German battle. By the way, in German WP I was the one who shortened the article from about 14.000 bytes to approx. 6.000 bytes because - IMHO - a lot of rubbish was in there (and still is - i.e. the Germans and/or Austrians included one specific participation of Michelides in a committee meeting of parliament although he was only 1 of 13 speakers there and there was actually no press coverage of what Michelides said there, but Elisabeth59 insisted that it remain included). In German WP, I was confronted with a very hostile attitude and ungrounded suspicions and grave accusations. The climate here is all different, I feel welcomed and helped. I like very much, what OlYeller21 wrote on his userpage:
What kind of material do I have: six catalogues from ed. Molotov, a programme of Opfer der Pflicht, some press clippings, a very extensive CV (filed at the the ministry of health), an article from Who is Who in Österreich (13th edition) and a book by Alfred Pritz (with one article, that I didn't quote yet), plus the internet. Do I know the subject of the article: Yes, I do. Can I still be neutral: I think so, at least I try hard. Am I a fan: Not at all.
Heavy debate in German WP about this issue, you can now compare the two versions: [7]. I couldn't hold laughing when I noticed that now even the dog was contested. By the way, Who is Who in Österreich cited the former dog Bobby Brown. The present dog is black and supports the therapist in some sessions with emotionally disturbed patients. I really do not have an opinion if it should be in or out, but I find it ridiculous and a waste of time to remove (and censor) this nice looking animal once it is in here.
I think it should be in there, as it is quite unusual that a 17 or 18 yr old guy from a provincial town succeeds to get this job. It is sourced (a) in the CV, (b) in the programme of Opfer der Pflicht (by Ionesco). I do not have the programme of Der Präsident (Thomas Bernhard), but it is mentioned in the CV. By the way, I did not include the job as assistent director and actor in a Hauptmann production (1978) with Hanna Schygulla in Germany, did not include his directoral debut at the italian theatre school (Schnitzler: Reigen) in 1979, and I did not include the job as assistent to Robert Wilson in Munich in 1982, as I thought these were jobs more or less typical for a student of theatre directing.
The CV cites:
Who is Who in Österreich cites:
I doubt about Berlin, as in the CV Berlin is mentioned much earlier (1975-77) - i.e. before the highschool diploma (1978). As was said in German WP discussion: No studies without Matura. Florence was never mentioned in the discussion till now, I think it's abdicable (too short). But Robertsan kicks out (a) Milan, (b) arts in Vienna, (c) New York. (a) and (b) is still in the German version, so why kicking it out here. I know that the subject never achieved a degree, but why do we have to delete substantial life experience?
There is a lengthy debate in German WP about the exhibitions organized by the subject, see: [8]. The CV cites only:
Robertsan succeeded in German WP to reduce all this to two exhibitions - although there were at least 30, of what I know till now:
(C) = with the publication of a catalogue. The original version from Machtjan X was explaining it all (until Robertsan questioned everything):
My abbreviated (german) version was pretty short:
So please, dear Robertsan, please don't charge me again with glorfying Michelides.
I don't have a clue why Robertsan wants to limit all this to some exhibitions in the rooms of GGK Wien. And I don't have a clue why he adds a citation needed to Studio Molotov - as it was Robertsan himself who quoted The Photograph collectors' resource directory as a source for Studio Molotov in German WP.
And I don't see any reason why it should not be mentioned, that the subject was the first one to bring notable American photographers to Europe.
Will be cont' on friday or saturday. Regards from McWien ( talk) 01:23, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
Where is an source for the italian-directoral debut, but i guess this is not needed, if someone need this source i will tell.-- Das-Geheimnis-der-Sphinx ( talk) 10:34, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
Some examples for exhibitions: "Josephine" was no art gallery but a bothel, the "Ring" was a pub. So why should these exhibitions be part of an encyclopedia? The catalogues are all self published and (without one example) there is no book found in the national gallery or in any art library. These are private books, and no need to take them in the article. The art fair in the Wiener Stadthalle was a commercial one. You can rent the space in the fair and then sell what you want. So what shall that be goog for? Now lets have a look at Studio Molotov. This was a gallery for photography founded by Michelides and a photographer named Aust. I found only one book where the Studio Molotov is mentioned, but only the adress, no more explaination. This book was a adress advice for Photo studios, not an art magazine or art encyclopedia. Thousands of artists found a gallery to promote their own work. They print also their own catalogues and make exhibitions. They rent spaces at private art fairs. That's their job. The members of the art board in German WP focuse on museums and big galleries, but the private cultural events are not relevant enough to become part of an encyclopedia. Important art fairs are documenta, Venice Biennale or the Art Cologne, where international curators do their job. Maybe that there had been some exhibitions, but these were not important enough, because no art library has taken a notice, and no art magazine has wrote about them.
The way the exhibitons are mentioned in the article is th glorify the person Christian Michelides. In the most sources used in the closing argument Michelides is not even mentioned.
A last word to the dog. The dog is not part of the psychologic work or in any other way important. So there is no need to get the dog in the article. The photo without dog is neutral. I would like to have a dog in an article of a dog's psychotherapist or an animal trainer, but Micheldies is not the one and not the other. (sorry for my broken English). -- Robertsan ( talk) 11:18, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
Have a look. McWien ( talk) 15:12, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
No given source does confirm this information yet. All what is known is that one of his pictures was used in a local online newspaper in 2016. Is this enough to claim that he is an "opera and theatre photographer all over europe since 2014" by ocupation? I doubt that. The unsourced information by another user that he got permission to take pictures in some opera-houses doesnt confirm this information in the article and this looks a lot like based on Wikipedia:Original Research. Kind regards Seader ( talk) 08:46, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Christian Michelides article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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|
warum mir das erst in der spanischen version auffällt - zwischen gründer und an neu gegründeter zeitschrift gleich mitgearbeitet ist ja doch a bisserl nen unterschied, was stimmt denn jetzt? dann fehlt ja was in der deutschen version.-- Das-Geheimnis-der-Sphinx ( talk) 21:45, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
There is a WP:COI in this article. As McWien therefore is blocked on German Wikipedia, the author and one of his friends now play the same game in en:WP. This friend in en:WP called Das-Geheimnis-der-Sphinx, in ge:WP the same account has another name (we know this, just have a look at the discussion pages, you'll realize at once), (And also in es:WP). There are several things not correctly sourced. The German Article is blocked as well because of edit-wars. -- Robertsan ( talk) 18:08, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
> Studio Molotov: The Photograph collectors' resource directory > John Dugdale: catalogue by Studio Molotov, Vienna 1984 > Marcus Leatherdale: catalogue listed > Robert Mapplethorpe: included in catalogue Fotografie 83, already listed in article > Todd Watts: http://www.toddwatts.com/toddwatts_exhibitions.html > Joel-Peter Witkin: included in catalogue Fotografie 83, already listed in article -- 88.165.218.161 ( talk) 01:43, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
I ask that all conversations pertaining to the alleged conflict of interest be taken to the associated discussion section here at thhe conflict of interest noticeboard. Things are a little unclear at this point and I think it would be beneficial to everyone and Wikipedia if we have this conversation at a centralized location. Thank you. OlYeller21 Talktome 19:34, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Warning user Robertsan because of his vandalism in this article, see [2] McWien ( talk) 21:49, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
Frankly I admit, that I have lost my temper in der German WP because of arguments ignored and reality denied. Therefore I was blocked there. I went on to work in the en:WP and have done some translation work here and created one new article [3], all during the last month. (I also translated this article for the Spanish WP, see [4]). My work has not been disputed here (nor in the Spanish WP) till Robertsan came over from the German WP. I would like to explain my concerns with Robertsan's changes in this article here, as I intend to ask for a Third Opinion. In German WP there is a bitter battle going about this article [5], [6], 22.8.2011, 10.9.2011, 21.9.2011, 30.9.2011, 30.9.2011, 6.11.2011 - a battle, by the way, that continued after I was blocked, and Robertsan is still participating in this battle. I refrain from reverting Robertsan's changes right away as I would like to - in order to prevent another edit war and the spilling over of the German battle. By the way, in German WP I was the one who shortened the article from about 14.000 bytes to approx. 6.000 bytes because - IMHO - a lot of rubbish was in there (and still is - i.e. the Germans and/or Austrians included one specific participation of Michelides in a committee meeting of parliament although he was only 1 of 13 speakers there and there was actually no press coverage of what Michelides said there, but Elisabeth59 insisted that it remain included). In German WP, I was confronted with a very hostile attitude and ungrounded suspicions and grave accusations. The climate here is all different, I feel welcomed and helped. I like very much, what OlYeller21 wrote on his userpage:
What kind of material do I have: six catalogues from ed. Molotov, a programme of Opfer der Pflicht, some press clippings, a very extensive CV (filed at the the ministry of health), an article from Who is Who in Österreich (13th edition) and a book by Alfred Pritz (with one article, that I didn't quote yet), plus the internet. Do I know the subject of the article: Yes, I do. Can I still be neutral: I think so, at least I try hard. Am I a fan: Not at all.
Heavy debate in German WP about this issue, you can now compare the two versions: [7]. I couldn't hold laughing when I noticed that now even the dog was contested. By the way, Who is Who in Österreich cited the former dog Bobby Brown. The present dog is black and supports the therapist in some sessions with emotionally disturbed patients. I really do not have an opinion if it should be in or out, but I find it ridiculous and a waste of time to remove (and censor) this nice looking animal once it is in here.
I think it should be in there, as it is quite unusual that a 17 or 18 yr old guy from a provincial town succeeds to get this job. It is sourced (a) in the CV, (b) in the programme of Opfer der Pflicht (by Ionesco). I do not have the programme of Der Präsident (Thomas Bernhard), but it is mentioned in the CV. By the way, I did not include the job as assistent director and actor in a Hauptmann production (1978) with Hanna Schygulla in Germany, did not include his directoral debut at the italian theatre school (Schnitzler: Reigen) in 1979, and I did not include the job as assistent to Robert Wilson in Munich in 1982, as I thought these were jobs more or less typical for a student of theatre directing.
The CV cites:
Who is Who in Österreich cites:
I doubt about Berlin, as in the CV Berlin is mentioned much earlier (1975-77) - i.e. before the highschool diploma (1978). As was said in German WP discussion: No studies without Matura. Florence was never mentioned in the discussion till now, I think it's abdicable (too short). But Robertsan kicks out (a) Milan, (b) arts in Vienna, (c) New York. (a) and (b) is still in the German version, so why kicking it out here. I know that the subject never achieved a degree, but why do we have to delete substantial life experience?
There is a lengthy debate in German WP about the exhibitions organized by the subject, see: [8]. The CV cites only:
Robertsan succeeded in German WP to reduce all this to two exhibitions - although there were at least 30, of what I know till now:
(C) = with the publication of a catalogue. The original version from Machtjan X was explaining it all (until Robertsan questioned everything):
My abbreviated (german) version was pretty short:
So please, dear Robertsan, please don't charge me again with glorfying Michelides.
I don't have a clue why Robertsan wants to limit all this to some exhibitions in the rooms of GGK Wien. And I don't have a clue why he adds a citation needed to Studio Molotov - as it was Robertsan himself who quoted The Photograph collectors' resource directory as a source for Studio Molotov in German WP.
And I don't see any reason why it should not be mentioned, that the subject was the first one to bring notable American photographers to Europe.
Will be cont' on friday or saturday. Regards from McWien ( talk) 01:23, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
Where is an source for the italian-directoral debut, but i guess this is not needed, if someone need this source i will tell.-- Das-Geheimnis-der-Sphinx ( talk) 10:34, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
Some examples for exhibitions: "Josephine" was no art gallery but a bothel, the "Ring" was a pub. So why should these exhibitions be part of an encyclopedia? The catalogues are all self published and (without one example) there is no book found in the national gallery or in any art library. These are private books, and no need to take them in the article. The art fair in the Wiener Stadthalle was a commercial one. You can rent the space in the fair and then sell what you want. So what shall that be goog for? Now lets have a look at Studio Molotov. This was a gallery for photography founded by Michelides and a photographer named Aust. I found only one book where the Studio Molotov is mentioned, but only the adress, no more explaination. This book was a adress advice for Photo studios, not an art magazine or art encyclopedia. Thousands of artists found a gallery to promote their own work. They print also their own catalogues and make exhibitions. They rent spaces at private art fairs. That's their job. The members of the art board in German WP focuse on museums and big galleries, but the private cultural events are not relevant enough to become part of an encyclopedia. Important art fairs are documenta, Venice Biennale or the Art Cologne, where international curators do their job. Maybe that there had been some exhibitions, but these were not important enough, because no art library has taken a notice, and no art magazine has wrote about them.
The way the exhibitons are mentioned in the article is th glorify the person Christian Michelides. In the most sources used in the closing argument Michelides is not even mentioned.
A last word to the dog. The dog is not part of the psychologic work or in any other way important. So there is no need to get the dog in the article. The photo without dog is neutral. I would like to have a dog in an article of a dog's psychotherapist or an animal trainer, but Micheldies is not the one and not the other. (sorry for my broken English). -- Robertsan ( talk) 11:18, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
Have a look. McWien ( talk) 15:12, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
No given source does confirm this information yet. All what is known is that one of his pictures was used in a local online newspaper in 2016. Is this enough to claim that he is an "opera and theatre photographer all over europe since 2014" by ocupation? I doubt that. The unsourced information by another user that he got permission to take pictures in some opera-houses doesnt confirm this information in the article and this looks a lot like based on Wikipedia:Original Research. Kind regards Seader ( talk) 08:46, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Christian Michelides. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 08:38, 6 August 2017 (UTC)