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This is a disambiguation page. See wp:dab. Unsourced edits adding POV motivated text to the page is inappropriate. Given the wider context detailed in this report, http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&action=edit§ion=18 , such edits may be seen as disruptive. μηδείς ( talk) 15:31, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
First of all I am new here and I apologize for the newbie mistakes I made earlier. I hope what I am doing now is in compliance with the practice of this board. If not, your suggestion and comments are greatly appreciated. Dwarm12345 ( talk) 19:09, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
IMHO, dictionaries are far better source and authority on information when it comes to the use of words than any he-say-she-says. If dictionaries were not to be trusted, a significant percentage of Wiki contents would have to be removed or revised because their information are based on dictionaries one way or the other, in which case what do the readers have left to believe when it comes the use of words? Believe the posters/admins of this board? How can we assert that we are superior than the linguistics who edited Webster, Oxford and so on? Therefore any claims that the dictionaries are " all written "off each other" " are serious charges which warrant backing of concrete evidences. The only possible way out of this difficulty seems to be discrediting the dictionary ONLY on the part on Chinaman, which may be called "Cherrypicking cherrypicking dictionaries" :-) Dwarm12345 ( talk) 19:09, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
Discrediting dictionaries as well as denying the fact that "Chinaman" was indeed used mainly in contemptuous and racially derogatory contexts, especially in late 19th and throughout most of 20th centuries, rather than people being taught to, or seek to see the word as objectionable, as claimed by some on this board, IMHO, is irresponsible and misleading to online audience at the minimum. I do form the same impression as several authors on this topic did that there has been a conscious effort to mitigate the derogatory aspect of the term... Any comments are greatly appreciated. Dwarm12345 ( talk) 19:09, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
This is all very repetitive. Stradivarius has given you a source which specifically says it is rarely used maliciously, and the difference between something being inherently offensive and sometimes being found offensive has been explained at length. Contentious covers those who find it offensive while itself being a neutral term which no one will dispute. "Often" is unsupported and "offensive" is a POV. I don't intend to repeat myself. μηδείς ( talk) 02:33, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Regarding this edit, I reverted it mainly because the grammar is incorrect. It also goes against the comment by Medeis that using "often offensive" would introduce unnecessary verbiage, which I agree with. These two points are related. But firstly, I should say that I can't really see what you're concerned about. Calling Chinaman "contentious", to my mind, is the same thing as saying it is "often offensive". They express the same potential to anger. Dwarm, is this different from your understanding of the word contentious?
The grammar is incorrect because it implies that Chinaman is often a term, when in fact it is always a term. To use often offensive in this sentence correctly, you would need to use the unnecessary verbiage that Medeis was talking about. It would have to be like this: "Chinaman is a term, often offensive, referring to a Chinese person". Or perhaps this: "Chinaman is a term often used offensively to refer to a Chinese person", but this is even longer. If the meaning does not change when using contentious, then why not stick with the simpler grammar? This page is just meant to be a quick way for people to jump between articles, after all. — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 14:08, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
I found these by using OneLook and Google Books, along with a couple of other dictionary sites I knew of already. I have excluded very old sources (I think they are all newer than 1980), and I have also excluded duplicate entries. They are in no particular order.
Actually, finding all of these has made me eat my words. I don't think we can realistically claim that contentious is appropriate, given all this evidence. Not to mention the fact that there is not one source here that calls Chinaman "contentious". Going by the sources, it seems we should choose either offensive or derogatory. What do others think? — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 17:06, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Hello! This is a disambiguation page, not an article, and sourced statements are not allowed. μηδείς ( talk) 18:28, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Please read WP:DABNOT:
What not to include
*Dictionary definitionsDo not include references in disambiguation pages; disambiguation pages are not articles. Incorporate references into the disambiguated articles as needed. μηδείς ( talk) 17:51, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
I looked here for a reference for this use of 'Chinaman'. This is a direct quote from the book 'Remains of the Day'. It appears to be an article of furniture (maybe) Anyway several of them are discussed in the book however I am unable to find out what they are! 2829 VC 08:32, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
I've now added 'a nodding Chinaman' or 'nodding China-man as this (from watching the film) appears to be the right reference 2829 VC 20:23, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
All your sources defining Chinaman as offensive or derogatory are out of date. Not one millennial alive today has heard it use that way, or even Gen-x ers. Only boomers and elderly heard it used that way, and mostly people who were alive in 1930 or earlier. If people today think its offensive, they probably read that it was offensive, and believed it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.48.247 ( talk) 01:22, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Chinaman (term) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 16:01, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Chinaman (disambiguation) page. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This disambiguation page does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||
|
|
|
This is a disambiguation page. See wp:dab. Unsourced edits adding POV motivated text to the page is inappropriate. Given the wider context detailed in this report, http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&action=edit§ion=18 , such edits may be seen as disruptive. μηδείς ( talk) 15:31, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
First of all I am new here and I apologize for the newbie mistakes I made earlier. I hope what I am doing now is in compliance with the practice of this board. If not, your suggestion and comments are greatly appreciated. Dwarm12345 ( talk) 19:09, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
IMHO, dictionaries are far better source and authority on information when it comes to the use of words than any he-say-she-says. If dictionaries were not to be trusted, a significant percentage of Wiki contents would have to be removed or revised because their information are based on dictionaries one way or the other, in which case what do the readers have left to believe when it comes the use of words? Believe the posters/admins of this board? How can we assert that we are superior than the linguistics who edited Webster, Oxford and so on? Therefore any claims that the dictionaries are " all written "off each other" " are serious charges which warrant backing of concrete evidences. The only possible way out of this difficulty seems to be discrediting the dictionary ONLY on the part on Chinaman, which may be called "Cherrypicking cherrypicking dictionaries" :-) Dwarm12345 ( talk) 19:09, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
Discrediting dictionaries as well as denying the fact that "Chinaman" was indeed used mainly in contemptuous and racially derogatory contexts, especially in late 19th and throughout most of 20th centuries, rather than people being taught to, or seek to see the word as objectionable, as claimed by some on this board, IMHO, is irresponsible and misleading to online audience at the minimum. I do form the same impression as several authors on this topic did that there has been a conscious effort to mitigate the derogatory aspect of the term... Any comments are greatly appreciated. Dwarm12345 ( talk) 19:09, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
This is all very repetitive. Stradivarius has given you a source which specifically says it is rarely used maliciously, and the difference between something being inherently offensive and sometimes being found offensive has been explained at length. Contentious covers those who find it offensive while itself being a neutral term which no one will dispute. "Often" is unsupported and "offensive" is a POV. I don't intend to repeat myself. μηδείς ( talk) 02:33, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Regarding this edit, I reverted it mainly because the grammar is incorrect. It also goes against the comment by Medeis that using "often offensive" would introduce unnecessary verbiage, which I agree with. These two points are related. But firstly, I should say that I can't really see what you're concerned about. Calling Chinaman "contentious", to my mind, is the same thing as saying it is "often offensive". They express the same potential to anger. Dwarm, is this different from your understanding of the word contentious?
The grammar is incorrect because it implies that Chinaman is often a term, when in fact it is always a term. To use often offensive in this sentence correctly, you would need to use the unnecessary verbiage that Medeis was talking about. It would have to be like this: "Chinaman is a term, often offensive, referring to a Chinese person". Or perhaps this: "Chinaman is a term often used offensively to refer to a Chinese person", but this is even longer. If the meaning does not change when using contentious, then why not stick with the simpler grammar? This page is just meant to be a quick way for people to jump between articles, after all. — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 14:08, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
I found these by using OneLook and Google Books, along with a couple of other dictionary sites I knew of already. I have excluded very old sources (I think they are all newer than 1980), and I have also excluded duplicate entries. They are in no particular order.
Actually, finding all of these has made me eat my words. I don't think we can realistically claim that contentious is appropriate, given all this evidence. Not to mention the fact that there is not one source here that calls Chinaman "contentious". Going by the sources, it seems we should choose either offensive or derogatory. What do others think? — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 17:06, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Hello! This is a disambiguation page, not an article, and sourced statements are not allowed. μηδείς ( talk) 18:28, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Please read WP:DABNOT:
What not to include
*Dictionary definitionsDo not include references in disambiguation pages; disambiguation pages are not articles. Incorporate references into the disambiguated articles as needed. μηδείς ( talk) 17:51, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
I looked here for a reference for this use of 'Chinaman'. This is a direct quote from the book 'Remains of the Day'. It appears to be an article of furniture (maybe) Anyway several of them are discussed in the book however I am unable to find out what they are! 2829 VC 08:32, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
I've now added 'a nodding Chinaman' or 'nodding China-man as this (from watching the film) appears to be the right reference 2829 VC 20:23, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
All your sources defining Chinaman as offensive or derogatory are out of date. Not one millennial alive today has heard it use that way, or even Gen-x ers. Only boomers and elderly heard it used that way, and mostly people who were alive in 1930 or earlier. If people today think its offensive, they probably read that it was offensive, and believed it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.48.247 ( talk) 01:22, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Chinaman (term) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 16:01, 24 March 2023 (UTC)