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Are we attempting to make any distinction between the ages of the people under 18 involved? I see a huge difference between a 15-year-old boy fooling around with a 22-year-old girl, and a 40something-year-old man raping an 4-year-old girl. I know people who have been in both of these situations. The girl was (and is) devastated. The teenager was psyched and went back for more. As far as I know nothing magical happens overnight when you turn 18. Are we making any account of that in this article? It sounds like some people think that people under 18 are sexless beings who do not (or must not) have any sexual experiences at all. That just doesn't jive with the recalled high school experiences of almost everyone I know. Almost everyone I know personally enough to talk about it with was sexually active on some level after the age of 16 or so. Many were younger when they began having sexual experiences with peers. Must we lump normal sexual development in with pathological rape and abuse of prepubescent children? They're not the same thing! Joie de Vivre 02:33, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I propose that the "effects" section and the "positive and consensual cases" sections be combined into one "effects" section. Both concern the same subject, that is, how child sexual abuse affects children. The "effects" section is NPOV, discussing effects regardless of 'positive/negative'. Rind's study is discussed in both sections, to make the same point. The idea of the experience being reported as positive appears in both sections. Therefore, it seems to me that the separate 'positive' section serves only to accentuate a certain POV. I also noticed that Rind's meta-analysis of 59 college studies has been changed to 15 studies in one section, but continues to be 59 in the other--citation to the same publication. What am I missing?
In 'effects':
One study found that most men formerly involved in woman-boy sexual relations, however, evaluate their experience as positive upon reflection.[17]
Wakefield and Underwager note the difference between CSA experiences of males and females, where more males than females report the experience as neutral or positive, saying that "It may be that women perceive such experiences as sexual violation, while men perceive them as sexual initiation."[18] The research by Rind et al. suggests that this difference was present in 59 college studies on the issue, suggesting that males who claimed that their abuse was consensual were not significantly less well adjusted than the norm.[5]
In 'positive...':
Several studies have indicated that some children regard their sexual abuse positively.[39][40][41] Boys have a tendency to experience the sexual contacts as positive more often than girls. A meta-analysis by Rind et al. of 15 studies found that boys reacted positively in 37% of the cases while girls reacted positively in 11% of the cases.[5] The Rind study is criticized by other researchers on a number of grounds.
Adrian Coxell examined the effects of child sexual abuse in a sample of 2474 men in Great Britain and found that of those who had a sexual encounter prior to the age of 16, over half of the experiences had been consensual. (The mean age for first or only experience of abuse was 11, with a standard deviation of 3.) [42] An examination of the main effect of harm showed that the consenting children had no more problems than the control group.[43] Rind stated that the normal perception on child sexual abuse is based on an incest model where father-daughter incest serves as a model for child sexual abuse cases. He says that this view may not provide an accurate model for the effects of consensual experiences.[40]
What is "the main effect of harm" referred to here? "An examination of the main effect of harm showed that the consenting children had no more problems than the control group." Shouldn't we be told specifically what that main effect is? Did the analysis of other effects, not the "main effect" indicate that there were more problems? - Jmh123 17:30, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
I think the whole posotive bit needs throughly researching, eg children may report positive effects and a few years later realise their lives have been devastrated by this. There was a recent report on CNN of a sex offender of boys whop said he had thoyught hios victims would enjoy being abused as he thought he had enjoyed being abused, but doubtless if he hadnt been abused he would not have abused and this abusing clearly had ruined his life. I strongly support he merging into an effects section,
SqueakBox
17:49, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
there. ~[[ kinda]] 19:18, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
all we have is vague complaints, so--suggestions? ~[[ kinda]] 20:14, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
squeakbox was interested in this, so i may or may not write it. somebody should write it. here's my suggested sources:
for a historical perspective, this website has an pretty complete bibliography. ~[[ kinda]] 00:00, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
perhaps i'm impatient but we don't seem to be making much progress in reaching a version of this article we can agree on. are we waiting for something, or is the plan to just leave the tag on there for eternity? i'm not sure what i should do since there's very little reasonable imput on what needs to be done from the people who want to keep the tag. ~[[ kinda]] 00:30, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Someone bring that part back. That's a very important part. 80.167.84.86
Was it without connsensus. There certainly was no consensus to keep it. What information got lost? SqueakBox 21:29, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
So, are you (Nandaba) supporting the addition of something like the following into the legal section?
Sexual relations between children and adults is illegal. As such, children cannot consent to sexual relationships and all such contact is illegal and by definition, abusive.
DPeterson talk 02:13, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Removed false statement:
American age of consent laws may or may not apply to emancipated minors, particularly married or divorced individuals under the age of consent. Emancipated minors, including married or divorced teenagers, are legally adults. A 2003 U.S. Supreme Court case (Lawrence v. Texas) implies that adults have the right to sexual relations with other adults. Whether or not a 40 year old man having sex with an underaged divorced woman is legal is untested. Likewise, incest between emancipated minors and other adult family members is also legally untested.
In the states where emancipation is allowed, statutory rape and age of marriage laws still apply. An emancipated minor is not a status equal to that of adulthood. The laws are listed here: http://www.jlc.org/index.php/factsheets/emancipationus. Lawrence v. Texas has no bearing on sex with minors, and not having tested a law does not make the law of questionable application. ZeroZ 07:55, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Children may be the initiators of the sexual contact and aggressively seek it, as is shown in the following case involving a 12-year-old: It developed over time and was great. We became friends and I invited him over once when my parents weren’t home. I practically had to force sex on him because he was afraid about losing his job. Ended when I went away for the summer and he wasn’t a teacher at my school no more
this seems to be an original synethesis of facts, which Wikipedia:No original research discourages. as far as i know, rind does not use this case to argue that some children aggresively seek sex. ~[[ kinda]] 22:04, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
It absolutely does not belong here. Please can we concentrate on making this article more NPOV instead of making it less so, SqueakBox 22:33, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
You have made sucha claim just above, SqueakBox 23:54, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Pages would be great, SqueakBox 23:54, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Rind is controversial and contested. Extensive use of this is really off point and POV. Furthermore, the use of annecdotes is not useful to support statements. I still feel strongly, as other editors do, that this should NOT be in the article. If someone feels strongly otherwise, I'd suggest we conduct an informal poll to see what consensus exists. DPeterson talk 00:39, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Exactly right. It does not matter even a little bit if a child "initiates" sexual behavior. The problem is the adult's (or much older child's) behavior. Children are by our reckoning incapable of informed consent which is the basis of individual freedom. Abuse is the leveraging of a power imbalance to the disadvantage of another. The lack of informed consent is the power imbalance. The negative impact on children's normal development, and therefore to many other outcomes bearing directly on individual welfare is the disadvantage. Maybe a few of these basic concepts should preface the article. Vendrov 09:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
To use the latest tag you need to fill atleast one criteria (which is does not at this point):
- it contains a lot of unlikely information, without providing references.
- it contains information which is particularly difficult to verify.
- in, for example, a long list, some errors have been found, suggesting that the list as a whole may need further checking.
- it has been written (or edited) by a user who is known to write inaccurately on the topic.
Nandaba Naota 22:57, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
"The editors who published the critique of the Rind et al. study argued that it had little merit but published it anyway to keep the debate inside the scientific community."[33] The reference is to McNally, R. J. (2003). Remembering Trauma. The Belknap press of Harvard University press, p. 25. No indication is given as to the context of this statement. It sounds gossipy and unprofessional. Is it something that was said to someone in the hallway at a conference, on the phone, by e-mail, or was it published in a scientific study? If the latter, why isn't the study quoted rather than this book? Or is this simply the opinion of McNally, in which case the statement as written is inaccurate and misleading. The latter part of the statement makes no sense. As I understand it, the debate went beyond the scientific community very rapidly. And why publish a poor study for this reason when a poor study wouldn't have silenced critics anyway? Can this be clarified please? - Jmh123 02:24, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I do have access to this. Pertinent here:
McNally bemoans the (remarkably) unanimous Congressional condemnation of the Bruce Rind meta-analysis, which claims no evidence of ill effects of childhood sexual abuse, as “perhaps the most egregious example of (perceived) advocacy trumping science”. But he does not mention that Psychological Bulletin published two full-length methodological criticisms of the Rind paper. The problem with that meta-analysis is not just its conclusions, but its assumptions and methods: deficient science, not politics.
Another quote that isn't directly relevant, but:
McNally also states, startlingly, that “the low base rate of HIV infection in the general population means that a positive HIV test will almost always be wrong”. Huh?
There's also an angry response from McNally in a later issue. This is obviously an area of controversy. So we currently have in this entry Rind's study and a statement that Rind is controversial, followed by a statement demeaning Rind's critics, and we could now add another statement criticizing those who demean Rind's critics, or could we perhaps stick with the simple--"Rind said," "his study is controversial" and leave out the back room gossip and bickerfest? - Jmh123 15:47, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I have put tags on to lessen pov and those who are increasing pov with a misguided defence of pedophile criminals, can you please back off? We need an NPOV article not a pro pedophile rant, SqueakBox 03:16, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I dont wish it to reflect my POV at all, I wish it to reflect NPOV. This isnt a subject I have strong POVs about anyway, other than the normal ones almost everybody has and that is NPOV, SqueakBox 16:27, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Why was the following removed? [1]
Nandaba Naota 12:41, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I dont think we should include stuff only understandable by experts. can you source your claim Rind's research is the best in the field, SqueakBox 17:01, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
squeakbox said "pages would be great" in regard to sources. sorry if i went overboard. ~[[ kinda]] 18:23, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
the argument in the law section is unsourced and ridiculously illogical, so i'm going to replace it. here's my suggestion:
Perhaps the best known argument for prohibiting child sexual abuse was put forward by Finkelhor (1979). He argued that, because prepubescent children are ignorant of the mechanics and social aspects of sexuality, they cannot give informed consent since they do not understand what they are consenting to. (Finkelhor, D. (1979). What's wrong with sex between adults and children? Ethics and the problems of child abuse. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 49 (2), 692-697)
additions? ~[[ kinda]] 19:36, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Finkelhor (1979, 1984) many years ago already articulated the posi-tions Schmidt is currently espousing. But the weakness of his articulation is instructive, as it points to the problem of trying to be a scientist and a moralist simultaneously. Like Schmidt, Finkelhor argued that harm is not needed to establish the immorality and unacceptability of adult–child sex. Instead, Finkelhor continued, the unacceptability is based on the child’s inability to consent, because he does not know what he is getting into and he cannot say no. A critic then complained that, if it is true that children cannot make judgments about sex, how can they judge among rival claims of the various religious sects (e.g., agree with an adult to be taken to one church rather than another or none at all)?. Finkelhor responded that it is different with sex, because sex is more likely to be harmful. His argument is circular–the issue falls back to harm, even though harm is claimed to be unessential to the point. -- Nandaba Naota 19:45, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
why was this added? how is the controversy over this even deniable? there's a reason so many studies now control for family environment, you know... ~[[ kinda]] 21:02, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Its fair to assunme that people who persistently add pro pedophile material to wikipedia and attack those who want NPOV are pro pedophile activists, SqueakBox 21:43, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I deleted the following from the intro as I don't think it belongs there. Maybe other editors can comment on if it belongs at all, and if so, where:
The term have been criticized for implicating negative effects although empirical research have shown that this is not always the case. The use of negative terminology can have a negative biasing effect on how adult-nonadult sexual contacts is perceived. [1]
DPeterson talk 21:46, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
lol, I just made an edit that didnt ec and it turns out DPetersen made the exact same edit, SqueakBox 22:06, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Please stop edit warring while wrongly accusing others of doing so. It looks like you are trying to manipulate wiki[pedia rules to your advantage but wikipedia isnt a supporter of pedophilia or gaming the system, SqueakBox 23:06, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Well lying wont help nor will wikilawyering nor will anything else that is purely to support your POV that child sexual abuse is great, SqueakBox 23:11, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
SqueakBox just deleted a large chunk of text: [2] with no clear reason as to why. This must stop, you can't just remove things like that. Nandaba Naota 21:50, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
How about we blank the article and start over. This time we plan everything very carefully and base every decision on peer reviewed research. A work group with 4 serious editors would suffice.
Make new version
Not sure
Keep current version
I and anothe editor (Will Beback) requested and were granted page protection on this page because of Nandaba's edits. I continue to have concerns regarding Nandaba's Personal Attacks, for example, toward SqueakBox. DPeterson talk 23:40, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
"Sexual relations between children and adults is illegal. As such, children cannot consent to sexual relationships and all such contact is illegal and by definition, abusive."
problems with this: sexual contact is illegal because they cannot give informed consent, rather than they can't give informed consent because sexual contact is illegal. a prepubescent child's incapacity to give informed consent is a proposition established through logic, not an axiom. this argument is an unsourced mockery of the argument against child sexual abuse, so i'm going to replace with it finkelhor's well-known opinions. ~[[ kinda]] 18:34, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
"Pedophilia is a term often used to describe the acts of perpetrators and is a psychiatric diagnosis in the DSM-IV-R[2]." This is a confusing sentence. Could someone rewrite it? -- Gbleem 08:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I find the section on "Variation in cultural practices, norms and research findings" problematic. The first couple of sentences are not well-written at all. In the second two paragraphs there's a lot of appealing to the ancients, and I know from my own research in another field that ideas about what "archaic cultures" did are often speculative. A couple of the sources in the second paragraph--globalgayz and glbtq are not scientific sources. There's a list of cultural practices in the second paragraph, but only a few can be related to child sexual abuse. I understand the point of making a statement about culture relativism, but in my opinion this section is rather poorly written and vague. - Jmh123 16:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
There is no consensus as to whether past or present cultural practices in Western or non-Western societies can be defined as abusing either general universalistic human rights or special universalistic rights of minors. Cultural relativists argue that it is not right to condemn the practices of other cultures, even when repugnant to one's own; others may point to slavery as an example of a cultural norm of the pre- Civil War American South that was nearly universally rejected by others.
Some of the sexual or sex-related practices sanctioned by cultural norms in different cultures include cutting and bleeding of the genitals, female genital cutting, circumcision (of males), castration, infibulation, sexual relationships between adolescent boys and adult men sanctioned by the state and sanctified by religion in ancient Greece, sexual relationships between adolescent boys and adult males in feudal Japan, and adult-child sexual relations in a variety of tribal cultures.
I propose that the entire section be deleted. Please indicate your support or opposition below RalphLender talk 18:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
There's nothing here about the physical effects of child sexual abuse. I changed the title of the "effects" section to psychological effects, as that is the topic of that section. I believe an additional "physical effects" section would be appropriate. - Jmh123 20:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
The changes of the last couple of days look really good. ZeroZ 12:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 9 |
I'm going to take a whack at rewriting the entire section and present it here for discussion within 48 hours. ZeroZ 12:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
My uncited/unverified edit to this page with the section "sexual mistreatment of minors" was removed due to exclusionism due to the page being controversial. What do you think of the separate definition of "sexual mistreatment" of minors that involves exposing minors to sexual material/pornography and corrupting their mental, emotional, and psychological state? Is this topic already covered in this article or in sexual abuse, does it merit an article/stub article of its own, etc.?
See my original edit. -- Wykypydya 22:08, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
There are a couple of inaccurate or misleading claims about what is generally prohibited under CSA laws in the "Prohibited activities" section such as:
Sexual activity betweens two related adults is not a crime in all U.S. states. Also I believe their is often a legal distinction made between closely related adults/children and distantly related adults/children.
If a parent advocates masturbation as a safe alternative to sexual activities for their teen/preteen son or daughter and their son or daughter later masturbates in private because of this then in a sense they "induced a child to touch his/her genitals for the purpose of sexual gratification" but unless I'm mistaken no U.S. state would consider that a crime. I believe the activity would need to take place in the presence of the adult. If the part about "for the purpose of sexual gratification" was meant to refer to the inducer's sexual gratification then that should be made clear. If no one expresses any reason why I shouldn't make changes to these two statements then I will go ahead and fix them. -- Cab88 23:32, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
My suggestion would be to change the sentences: to read:
Does the above rewrites seem satisfactory to everyone? -- Cab88 02:16, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I recently added:
Nonetheless, many women are married before the age of 15, often to older men, without their consent, and with financial motivations: up to 20% in some nations and 50% in some regions. [2] In some regions the arranged marriage of the Prophet Muhammed to a six-year-old girl, consummated at the age of nine, [3] [4] [5], is taken to illustrate the virtue of the practice.
In reference to a speedy revert I deleted a somewhat peripheral comment that the practice is vigorously defended, with reference to Submission (film) and murdered filmmaker Theo Van Gogh, which admittedly is somewhat more relevant to my POV than to the article.
Nonetheless, the overall statement is very important. The article currently gives the clear impression throughout that child molestation has been universally marginalized and occurs only in a criminal context, when in reality it remains the law of the land, and of God, in many places. 204.186.20.137 16:03, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to propose we add a section that describes the reasons for child sexual abuse.
Although I don't have a source to provide, I believe it's safe to say sexual abuse isn't always perpetrated by pedophiles - those who are sexually attracted to children. It can also be due to marital problems, alcohol/drugs, a form of punishment, etc.
Although the "Regressed Offenders" section touches on this a little bit, it doesn't do so in great detail.
I think the distinction between "pedophile" and "child sex offender" should be noted - because as someone has stated in the article, the word "pedophile" has unfortunately become a colloquialism to refer to child sex offenders.
What are your thoughts on the matter?
To date there is a paucity of hard evidence to support either Finkelhor's model or the risk factors (Oates 1990). Oates believes that this can be used as an indication that child sexual abuse is a complicated phenomenon, with no simple solutions. Goddard and Carew (1993) contended that Finkelhor's model indicated more about how sexual abuse occurs rather than why it occurs. They argued that in order to understand sexual abuse, like other forms of child maltreatment, it is necessary to categorise and separate the various types of sexually abusive behaviour, given that different causative factors may be operating for each 'type' of abuse.
"Fear literally arises from the core of the brain, affecting all brain areas and their functions in rapidly expanding waves of neurchemical acticity...also important is a stress hormone called cortisol.", p. 64.
not only does this not explicitly support what it claims to, it appears to be speculative rather than empirical. i have never encountered any study supporting the claim made there in my research, and if a book just claims that rather than a study having found that, the statement should be either changed or removed, especially since empirical observations contradicts it. ~[[ kinda]] 23:58, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
It may be wrong and misleading but it should be included anyway, wikipedia does not claim to know the truth, it only speaks mirrors what other people say and beleive. If enough people beleive that the world is flat, then that will be the truth on wikipedia. Revolt against the modern world 11:09, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
It's up. I'm still working on formatting citations. Please comment here. - ZeroZ 12:04, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
By DSM def., if the behavior has a 6-month hx, then the person is a pedophile. DPeterson talk 13:12, 2 June 2007 (UTC)"Although the term pedophile is used colloquially to describe child sexual offenders, this is misleading, as not all child sexual offenders are principally sexually attracted to children, and not all pedophiles perpetrate child sexual abuse."
Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, OR behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children
DPeterson talk 13:12, 2 June 2007 (UTC)Pedophilia is a psychiatric diagnosis in the DSM-IV-R[2]; the term pedophile is often used colloquially to denote a child sexual abuser. The assailants can be of either sex as can the victim. Child sexual abuse is illegal in all countries about which information is available.
Under Effects (middle of third paragraph) it states:
I think this line may be inaccurate and should be removed:
Although the term "pedophile" is used colloquially to refer to child sexual offenders, this is inaccurate and confusing, because not all child sexual offenders meet the diagnostic criteria of pedophilia, and not all pedophiles act on their fantasies or urges.
for the following reasons:
1. A person convicted of child sexual abuse will generally meet the DSM criteria in all but a few very rare instances. 2. The convict will have engaged in activity involving secual activity 3. Age difference 4. Caused sign impairment on social functioning.
What do other editors think of changing this to:
The term "pedophile" is used colloquially to refer to child sexual offenders, although not all pedophiles act on their fantasies or urges, child sexual abuse, the activity, is illegal and also a mental illness.
DPeterson talk 13:36, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
This line:
The relationship between child sexual abuse and its attributed symptoms is contested,[30][45][46][47][48] because child sexual abuse frequently occurs alongside other possibly confounding variables, such as poor family environment.[49]
may not be accurate. The last study, #49, does 'not' reach the conclusion that, "The hypothesis advanced in this paper is that, in most cases, the fundamental damage inflicted by child sexual abuse is to the child's developing capacities for trust, intimacy, agency and sexuality, and that many of the mental health problems of adult life associated with histories of child sexual abuse are second-order effects." DPeterson talk 13:44, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I prpose deleting this line. What do others think? DPeterson talk 13:44, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
, the damage to these dimensions (trust, intimacy, etc) then lead to the other problems in later life not that those other issues (poor family environ) are confounding variables! Therefore, the line must go. DPeterson talk 20:56, 4 June 2007 (UTC)The hypothesis advanced in this paper is that, in most cases, the fundamental damage inflicted by child sexual abuse is to the child's developing capacities for trust, intimacy, agency and sexuality, and that many of the mental health problems of adult life associated with histories of child sexual abuse are second-order effects
Just reread the intro -- I don't agree with the new line that was added:
For individuals in late adolescence with Pedophilia, no precise age difference is specified, and clinical judement must be used.
But a person has to be 16 or older for this diagnosis. Persons younger than 16 *cannot* be diagnosed with pedophilia, according to the DSM-IV, because they don't fulfill Criterion C. (Of course, if someone younger than 16 commits child sexual abuse s/he *can* certainly be judged to be a sex offender.) Is there more information? - ZeroZ 03:36, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I have edited the intro along the lines of our discussion here. Removed the adjectives, added reference material to support the discussion of terminology. The 11:09am edit was me; got logged out accidentally. The line I asked about in "Query," just above this section, I left alone until we can reach consensus. Cheers, ZeroZ 11:29, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
your concerns HAVE BEEN ADDRESSED, as i have already explained thrice. there are NOT any comments here which are relevant to the information you are removing. please cease deleting material without discussion. ~[[ kinda]] 01:16, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I wish you'd read all the comments before you begin trying to argue a point. As I said before, the studies do not make your point...the study says, "The hypothesis advanced in this paper is that, in most cases, the fundamental damage inflicted by child sexual abuse is to the child's developing capacities for trust, intimacy, agency and sexuality, and that many of the mental health problems of adult life associated with histories of child sexual abuse are second-order effects." DPeterson talk 00:20, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Because child sexual abuse can occur alongside other possibly confounding variables, such as poor family environment and physical abuse, some scholars argue it is important to control for those variables in studies which measure the effects of sexual abuse [40][55][56][57][58] and some have hypothesized "that abuse effects are at least in part the results of dysfunctional family dynamics that support sexual abuse and produce psychological disturbance (Fromuth, 1986) and that concomitant physical or psychological abuse may account for some of the difficulties otherwise attributed to sexual abuse (Briere & Runtz, 1990)."[59] XXX, however, says, "in most cases, the fundamental damage inflicted by child sexual abuse is to the child's developing capacities for trust, intimacy, agency and sexuality, and that many of the mental health problems of adult life associated with histories of child sexual abuse are second-order effects." -- Jmh123 00:15, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
here is my attempt at the other side: "However, some other researchers say that controlling for these variables can be misleading, because sexual abuse may impact family environment negatively or bias the child's later perception of their family environment." ok? ~[[
kinda]]
00:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
What an old and minor article. DPeterson talk 01:32, 7 June 2007 (UTC) The paper, states just what I said, "The hypothesis advanced in this paper is that, in most cases, the fundamental damage inflicted by child sexual abuse is to the child's developing capacities for trust, intimacy, agency and sexuality, and that many of the mental health problems of adult life associated with histories of child sexual abuse are second-order effects." In other words, child sexual abuse causes serious pyschological damage because of its damaging effects on "the child's developing capacities for trust, intimacy, agency and sexuality." You've made my point, thank you. DPeterson talk 01:35, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
OK so we have this:
Because child sexual abuse can occur alongside other variables, such as poor family environment and physical abuse, some scholars argue it is important to control for those variables in studies which measure the effects of sexual abuse.[40][55][56][57][58] Briere has hypothesized that "some part of the effects are a result of dysfunctional family dynamics and that concomitant physical or psychological abuse may account for some of the difficulties otherwise attributed to sexual abuse."(add fn to Briere, one or both) Martin and Fleming, however, argue that, "in most cases, the fundamental damage inflicted by child sexual abuse is due to the child's developing capacities for trust, intimacy, agency and sexuality, and that many of the mental health problems of adult life associated with histories of child sexual abuse are second-order effects." - Jmh123 01:39, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
These are not confounding variable, but are 'INTERVENING' variables. That is an enormous difference. DPeterson talk 13:03, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I think the deletion is good and see no need to add anything else. SamDavidson 18:32, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Please stop adding material before consensus has been reached, Kind0. There exists a consensus to leave out the material you keep adding. I'd suggest you conduct an informal poll first before you continue on your edit war. DPeterson talk 22:55, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
You guys had an edit war over the capitalization of sections and subsections? I think it's fair to say that this article may be doomed ...I mean, come on now. At least argue over something important like the content or possibility of bias in cited research. Viper2k6 20:18, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
DPeterson (and a few others, to lesser extent) have insisted on removing the following information:
Originally, DPeterson justified this by pointing out that the reference used to evidence our assertion that child sexual abuse occurs alongside possibly confounding variables hypothesized that *many* of the problems attributed to CSA were "second-order effects." (See #Another line to be deleted.) However, this criticism is invalid--the cited article only sources the claim that "child sexual abuse frequently occurs alongside other possibly confounding variables, such as poor family environment." We do not claim that the relationship found between CSA and mental health problems is a spurious one, and we certainly do not cite that study to prove any such claim. The study is cited because of its summary of occurence alongside confounding variables: it says, "Child sexual abuse is not randomly distributed through the population. It occurs more frequently in children from socially deprived and disorganised family backgrounds (Finkelhor and Baron 1986; Beitchman et al. 1991; Russell 1986; Peters 1988; Mullen et al. 1993)." Additionally, although family environment, etc. certainly confounds with child sexual abuse and in this manner increases the found effect size of studies which fail to control for it, many studies have found that though the relationship between CSA and adult psychopathology lessens when family environment is controlled for, it does not disappear entirely. This is in accordance with that studies hypothesis: _many_ of the associations found are indeed valid.
Regardless, I replaced this source to avoid further bickering. I pointed this out multiple times, but DPeterson hasn't yet acknowledged my change. The new study, which is anyway better and published in a more academic forum, is by the same auther as the previous and concludes: "Abuse of all types was more frequent in those from disturbed and disrupted family backgrounds. The background factors associated with reports of abuse were themselves often associated to the same range of negative adult outcomes as for abuse. Logistic regressions indicated that some, though not all, of the apparent associations between abuse and adult problems was accounted for by this matrix of childhood disadvantage from which abuse so often emerged." This indisputably supports the statement. Thus, I conclude that this issue is resolved and no longer relevant. DPeterson is welcome to explain any more objections he may have.
DPeterson gave a different argument on 6 June. He said, "The reason is that these are a very minor point and we should not give undue weight to ti. [sic]." First, lets deal with the policy he cites, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Undue_weight--a policy he has apparently not read. The policy says, "Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all." A "tiny-minority view" is apparently a view held by a very, very few people, and one for which it isn't "easy to name prominent adherents" of.
For anyone familiar with the study of CSA effects, this methodological issue is notable and definitely not only considered by a "tiny minority." Briere & Elliot, in their 1993 paper discussing the issue, note that "The most critical issue is wellknown to behavioral scientists: Does the statistical relationship between abuse and later distress reflect a causal phenomenon (i.e., does childhood sexual abuse have negative psychological impact), or is the relationship caused by other variables such as concomitant family dysfunction or the impact of other events during or after the abuse" (p.284) Indeed, dozens of researchers have expounded on this methodological issue in papers, (eg. Berliner and Conte, 1993; Pope and Hudson, 1995; Levitt & Pinnell, 1995; etc.) and many studies now control for confounding variables (eg. Ageton, 1988; Nash et al. 1993; Roosa et al., 1999; Levitan et al, 2003; Kendler et al. 2000; Boney-McCoy & Finkelhor 1995; Fergusson et al. 1996; Fleming et al. 1999; Molnar, Berkman et al. 2001; Rind and Tromovitch, 1997; Rind et al., 1998; Widom, 1999; Mullen et al. 1993; Stein et al. 1988; Beitchman et al., 1991; Fromuth & Burk, 1989; Gidycz et al., 1995; Higgins & McCabe, 1994; Cole, 1988; Fromuth, 1986; Yama et al., 1992; Pallotta, 1992; etc.) Nash et al. concluded that: "Perceived family environment appears to be an important mediating variable in determining general level of adult psychological distress ... Subsequent adult impairment may be an effect not only of abuse but also of the context in which it is embedded." (Nash, et al. (1993), p.282) Additionally, those studies which do not control for family environment and other confounding variables now often note that their findings are limited by this (eg. Beitchman et al, 1992; Najman et al., 2005; etc.)
I believe I have demonstrated the notability of this issue. Following from this notability, it should be included per Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Indeed, it is not even a minority view in the scientific realm, though I'm not sure how I would go about proving this. I am open to including other viewpoints, including Briere and Elliot's position, which can be summarized as follows: "However, some researchers say that controlling for these variables can be misleading, because sexual abuse may impact family environment negatively or bias the child's later perception of their family environment."
Finally to address DPeterson's claim that I must stop discussing this and poll instead: he is simply wrong. On Wikipedia, consensus is built through meaningful discussion, and polls can never establish consensus--see Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion. If DPeterson has no valid reason for excluding this, it should be in the article. A few of his friends saying "me too" is not relevant, per Wikipedia policy.
Over! ~[[ kinda]] 17:35, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Since no one is willing to provide any arguments against Kinda, Kinda's version should be restored. 00a00a0aa 23:30, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Proposed alternative for full paragraph in which disputed text appeared:
Because child sexual abuse can occur alongside other possibly confounding variables, such as poor family environment and physical abuse, [6] some scholars argue it is important to control for those variables in studies which measure the effects of sexual abuse [7] [8] [9] [10], and some have hypothesized "that abuse effects are at least in part the results of dysfunctional family dynamics that support sexual abuse and produce psychological disturbance (Fromuth, 1986) and that concomitant physical or psychological abuse may account for some of the difficulties otherwise attributed to sexual abuse (Briere & Runtz, 1990)." [11] Martin and Fleming, however, argue that, "in most cases, the fundamental damage inflicted by child sexual abuse is due to the child's developing capacities for trust, intimacy, agency and sexuality, and that many of the mental health problems of adult life associated with histories of child sexual abuse are second-order effects" while the primary variable is the sexual abuse. [12] Kendler et al. found an independent association of child sexual abuse with adverse psychological outcomes. [8] [7] [13], and found that most of the relationship between severe forms of child sexual abuse and adult psychopathology in their sample could not be explained by family discord, because the effect size of this association decreased only slightly after they controlled for possible confounding variables. Their examination of a small sample of CSA-discordant twins also supported a causal link between child sexual abuse and adult psychopathology; the CSA-exposed subjects had a consistently higher risk for psychopathologic disorders than their CSA non-exposed twins. [8] (full ref data is missing) After controlling for possible confounding variables, Widom (1999) found that child sexual abuse independently predicts the number of symptoms for PTSD a person displays. 37.5% of their sexually abused subjects, 32.7% of their physically abused subjects, and 20.4% of their control group met the criteria for a diagnosis of PTSD. The authors concluded, "Victims of child abuse (sexual and physical) and neglect are at increased risk for developing PTSD, but childhood victimization is not a sufficient condition. Family, individual, and lifestyle variables also place individuals at risk and contribute to the symptoms of PTSD." [14]
This version flows more smoothly, and contextualizes the material beginning with Kendler more effectively than the previous version. - Jmh123 23:42, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
The proposal still has lots of problems...best just to leave it out as others suggest. For example, the lines:
Because child sexual abuse can occur alongside other possibly confounding variables, such as poor family environment and physical abuse,[5] some scholars argue it is important to control for those variables in studies which measure the effects of sexual abuse[6][7][8][9], and some have hypothesized "that abuse effects are at least in part the results of dysfunctional family dynamics that support sexual abuse and produce psychological disturbance (Fromuth, 1986) and that concomitant physical or psychological abuse may account for some of the difficulties otherwise attributed to sexual abuse (Briere & Runtz, 1990)."[10]
have several problems. First, I don't think the term "confounding" is used in cite 5...I don't see that 6, 7, 8, and 9 state that they, "argue it is important..." The quote is from a very old cite...not really relevant. and, if you must propose using it, you do need a page number. I could go on...but this is indicative of the problems with this section and why it just should be left out completed as others have suggested. DPeterson talk 00:36, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, RalphLender, it does look like there is a clear agreement or consensus among five or six editors and only one (or two?) who seem to disagree. Deletion is the plan now. SamDavidson 19:29, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
The previous suggestions were did not address the concerns raised in this and other sections above. But if otherw want to take a stab a developing a compromise, that's fine with me. As it stands now, most editors agree this is not a releveant section and gives undue weight...But If Will Beback or otherw want to try something different, I am open to that. DPeterson talk 00:42, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I am a registered user in other wikis, and I just happened to have read the whole discussion page. I find repulsive that people with clear pro-paedophile viewpoints are even allowed to write about this issue in Wikipedia, their lack of humanity and empathy is self-evident in their quest to find pathetic materialistic justifications to approach the issue of children sexual abuse from a "it's not always negative for the kid's health" point, while completely ignoring the clear psychological and human side-effects .
Emanuele -- 81.125.177.1 07:42, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
How about the following:
Some writers argue it is important to control for variables that may be associated with child sexual abuse, such as physical abusele, in studies which measure the effects of sexual abuse[40][57]. Martin and Fleming, however, argue that, "in most cases, the fundamental damage inflicted by child sexual abuse is due to the child's developing capacities for trust, intimacy, agency and sexuality, and that many of the mental health problems of adult life associated with histories of child sexual abuse are second-order effects."[60]
DPeterson talk 23:36, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}} The above proposal has broad agreement. Please add it to the effects of child abuse section at the end. Thanks. DPeterson talk 22:02, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
The revision is an improvement, but, in my opinion, it is not as effective as it could be as an topical introduction to the studies which follow in that paragraph, studies which, other than Rind, highlight results in studies in which significant effects are found even when variables are controlled for. Diminishing the issue diminishes the power of the response. See below for an alternative possibility. I have made several changes throughout in attempt to emphasize the topic of the paragraph. Rather than leading with Rind, I think it is more effective to lead with a general statement about the issue that Rind raised. - Jmh123 21:38, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
first, please reread the paragraph as it is written in the current entry:
Rind et al.'s[47] disputed 1998 meta-analysis of studies using college student samples concluded that the relationship between poorer adjustment and child sexual abuse is generally found nonsignificant in studies which control for these variables.[55] Other more current studies, however, have found an independent association of child sexual abuse with adverse psychological outcomes.[56][40][43] Kendler et al. (2000) found that most of the relationship between severe forms of child sexual abuse and adult psychopathology in their sample could not be explained by family discord, because the effect size of this association decreased only slightly after they controlled for possible confounding variables. Their examination of a small sample of CSA-discordant twins also supported a causal link between child sexual abuse and adult psychopathology; the CSA-exposed subjects had a consistently higher risk for psychopathologic disorders than their CSA non-exposed twins.[56] After controlling for possible confounding variables, Widom (1999) found that child sexual abuse independently predicts the number of symptoms for PTSD a person displays. 37.5% of their sexually abused subjects, 32.7% of their physically abused subjects, and 20.4% of their control group met the criteria for a diagnosis of PTSD. The authors concluded, "Victims of child abuse (sexual and physical) and neglect are at increased risk for developing PTSD, but childhood victimization is not a sufficient condition. Family, individual, and lifestyle variables also place individuals at risk and contribute to the symptoms of PTSD."[42]
proposed revision of paragraph:
Some scholars argue that research into the effects of child sexual abuse must control for possibly confounding variables such as poor family environment and physical abuse [cite], and one controversial study concluded that the relationship between poorer adjustment and child sexual abuse is generally insignificant in studies which control for these variables. (cite Rind here) However, other researchers have countered that controlling for these variables can be misleading, because sexual abuse may impact family environment negatively or bias the child's later perception of their family environment. (cite Martin and Fleming) Some more current studies that have addressed this issue by controlling for possibly confounding variables have found significant effects due to child sexual abuse. For example, Kendler et al. found an independent association of child sexual abuse with adverse psychological outcomes.[7][6][12], and found that most of the relationship between severe forms of child sexual abuse and adult psychopathology in their sample could not be explained by family discord, because the effect size of this association decreased only slightly after they controlled for possible confounding variables. Their examination of a small sample of CSA-discordant twins also supported a causal link between child sexual abuse and adult psychopathology; the CSA-exposed subjects had a consistently higher risk for psychopathologic disorders than their CSA non-exposed twins.[7] (full ref data is missing) After controlling for possible confounding variables, Widom found that child sexual abuse independently predicts the number of symptoms for PTSD a person displays. 37.5% of their sexually abused subjects, 32.7% of their physically abused subjects, and 20.4% of their control group met the criteria for a diagnosis of PTSD. [13] (delete final sentence from current entry, as the conclusion conflates physical and sexual abuse, and therefore reaches beyond the topic at hand.)
This is good. I suggest:
Also, [7][6][12] should be before "For example, Kendler," and some parts seem poorly placed. Briere and Elliot initially appear to be responding to Rind, and "However, more current studies" seems like a reply to Briere and Elliot. Confusing... ~[[ kinda]] 23:01, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
This is not an acceptable proposal. But the one above has the approval of all editors, except these two. DPeterson talk 00:55, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
This is a good start, It's good enough to be included in the article. 00a00a0aa 09:01, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Only you disagree and Kinda...You cannot hold the article hostage to your minority views which are POV and not acceptable to the consensus of editors here. If you continue to act in a disruptive manner by reverting accepted edits you do risk being sanctioned by an administrator. DPeterson talk 15:57, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
[[ kinda]] Accusations of me as a "sockpuppet" are clearly a Personal attack. I ask you to stop immediately and apologize for making a knowlingly false statment. DPeterson talk 22:05, 10 June 2007 (UTC) The evidence is at [ [16]] DPeterson talk 22:08, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
This is your last warning. If you continue to make personal attacks, you will be blocked for disruption.
Making false accusations of sockpuppetry is a very serious offense and is a Personal attack, an apology is in order. DPeterson talk 22:38, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
00a00a0aa, do not delete other editor's comments on talk pages, that is considered vandalism and there can be very serious sanctions for that.
DPeterson
talk 22:55, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Please do not
delete or edit legitimate talk page comments, as you did at
Child sexual abuse; this is considered
vandalism. If you would like to experiment, please use the
sandbox. Thank you.
DPeterson
talk
23:03, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Jmh123, please do not delete other editor's comments on talk pages as you just did to me on this page. That is considered vandalism and there can be very serious sanctions for that.
Please do not
delete or edit legitimate talk page comments, as you did at
Child sexual abuse; this is considered
vandalism. If you would like to experiment, please use the
sandbox. Thank you.
DPeterson
talk
00:03, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
When people are trying to remove material that have major impact on the research area while claiming that it is undue weight to even include it, then we have major problem. It doesn't matter if it is ignorance or in bad faith, it just isn't possible to edit this article under such conditions. Let's settle this in ArbCom and get it done already. 00a00a0aa 00:45, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Ok, let's just continue as usual then. I'm sure everything will work itself out in the end. 00a00a0aa 08:44, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I propose to integrate the new South Africa [15] material into our layout more thoroughly. The first paragraph, which discusses South African law, certainly should remain where it is, in the Legal section. But I would like the other two paragraphs, discussing incidence and the "virgins/AIDS cure" offender rationale, moved to the Medical section (perhaps to the Epidemiology and Offenders subsections, respectively). - ZeroZ 09:11, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Can i get a full reference to Kendler et al. (2000), it seems to be missing in the article. 00a00a0aa 09:06, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Rind et al.'s[47] controversial 1998 meta-analysis of studies using college student samples concluded that the relationship between poorer adjustment and child sexual abuse is generally found nonsignificant in studies which control for these variables.[55] Other more current studies, however, have found an independent association of child sexual abuse with adverse psychological outcomes.[56][40][43]
Does the other "more current" studies control for those variables? I skimmed through Levitan and did not find that it was the case in the study. I could be wrong so before I do anything drastic, feel free to comment on this. 00a00a0aa 09:13, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Edit warring over "however" is pitiful. Let's first figure out, here on this talk page, what we want to say and then let's say it, rather than the other way around. I've protected the page for a couple of days to give us all a chance to take some deep breaths and carry on. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:12, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree, but at the same time I don't think the problem has been resolved. If anyone's noticed, I came on here once to contribute to the article and then left because...consensus doesn't seem to be one of our strengths. Um...if you want my opinion on the matter, I think everyone's so caught up in their own views that they're not really open to change. Or, they'll say that they're open to change, but then reject every opposing suggestion. I also noticed a lot of personal attacks...for example anytime someone suggests the possibility of there not being a causal relationship between CSA and negative effects, they're automatically labeled a pro-pedophile activist...which not only is an absurd statement to make, but it's also irrelevant either way.
Also, on a side note (since everyone's so anal about giving "undue weight" to unimportant issues), why does the article focus so much on the legalities of sexual abuse? About 1/3 of the article focuses on the laws in place prohibiting sexual abuse ...which is useful if I actually planned on abusing a child, but not good if I'm here to get an introduction to the topic. Would it not make sense to include sections on prevalence, children at risk, child grooming, and prevention? I mean Wikipedia is the 4th search result on Google for child sexual abuse ... in a sense, you almost have a responsibility to give an accurate introduction to the topic. And as a potential parent seeking information, all I'm going to leave here knowing is what legally constitutes sexual abuse/molestation. Is that really your goal here? I don't know...I'm gonna go to bed now. Though I strongly hope that you consider everything I've said... Viper2k6 05:14, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Addressing Viper2k6's comment: while I am sure many sorts of information can and should be included in the article, there are excellent reasons to begin with and to include thorough information on the legal issues around child sexual abuse.
First, because child sexual abuse constitutes a set of crimes, a clear statement about the acts that constitute those crimes is useful for readers. Most people are unfamiliar with the method in which such crimes are reported by law enforcement nationwide, and definition of the terms provides a common language.
Second, earlier versions of this article tended toward weasel language in describing the nature of the criminal acts and their punishment. An argument I have seen advanced for that weasel language was that state laws differ in their specifics. That argument, however, badly misrepresents the relative uniformity in the elements of child sexual abuse law and in the trend toward increasing sanctions for adult perpetrators. Therefore, a discussion of certain legal commonalities, such as the inability of minors to consent, provides basic information for persons consulting the article as a general reference.
Third, modern inquiry into medical issues, such as prevalence, or sociological issues, such as risk of victimization, proceed from recognition of the crime of child sexual abuse in local, national, and international laws. The most complete discussion of offender motivations cannot describe the elements of a crime, or the legal response of a community or nation in addressing criminal acts. (As an analogy, a complete description of kleptomaniac motivation cannot substitute for information on the crime of robbery.) Medical information is vital in illuminating sequelae of child abuse, and psychology offers information on the motivation of some offenders. But these disciplines do not speak to, and cannot substitute for clear statements about, the fact that our culture, our laws, and the laws of other cultures judge sexual activity with children as crimes. Whatever else may be added, clear information about child sexual abuse as a set of criminal and civil offenses constitutes a basic requirement for this article. - ZeroZ 10:42, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Done. Moved the "virgin/AIDS cure myth" material into the Epidemiology subsection. It now follows (in a new paragraph) immediately after: female sexual abuse of males is often seen as 'desirable' and/or beneficial by judges, mass media pundits and other authorities. Of course, if it works better elsewhere within the Medical section, do move it. Cheers. - ZeroZ 13:20, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Obviously may need some work (citations, rephrasing), but it's a start:
Any child can be a victim of child sexual abuse. However in the U.S., most recent studies show that Caucasian children account for the highest percentage of child sexual abuse, second being Hispanics, and third being African Americans. 1 The average age group for child sexual abuse is 8-11, with an average age of 9.9 for boys and 9.6 for girls. Additionally, children who are on the brink of puberty are at a high risk for abuse, as many child sex offenders will take advantage of their developing sexual curiosity. Furthermore, children who lack confidence or do not have strong social support (i.e. friends, family, etc) are at a much higher risk for sexual abuse, as many sex offenders will seek out such children. Lastly, children with special needs (i.e. lacking a father figure, living in poverty) are also at a higher risk for abuse because many offenders will shower such children with attention and gifts only to abuse their relationship at a more opportune time. Despite this however, it should be noted that sexual abuse occurs in both lower and upper class families, and is not limited to any specific demographic. Viper2k6 14:57, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks everyone for your input. Give me a few days...I'm kinda busy with other stuff. I'll post the revised version with citations when I'm ready (on the talk page). Viper2k6 02:22, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
twin
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).levitan
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).widom
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 9 |
Are we attempting to make any distinction between the ages of the people under 18 involved? I see a huge difference between a 15-year-old boy fooling around with a 22-year-old girl, and a 40something-year-old man raping an 4-year-old girl. I know people who have been in both of these situations. The girl was (and is) devastated. The teenager was psyched and went back for more. As far as I know nothing magical happens overnight when you turn 18. Are we making any account of that in this article? It sounds like some people think that people under 18 are sexless beings who do not (or must not) have any sexual experiences at all. That just doesn't jive with the recalled high school experiences of almost everyone I know. Almost everyone I know personally enough to talk about it with was sexually active on some level after the age of 16 or so. Many were younger when they began having sexual experiences with peers. Must we lump normal sexual development in with pathological rape and abuse of prepubescent children? They're not the same thing! Joie de Vivre 02:33, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I propose that the "effects" section and the "positive and consensual cases" sections be combined into one "effects" section. Both concern the same subject, that is, how child sexual abuse affects children. The "effects" section is NPOV, discussing effects regardless of 'positive/negative'. Rind's study is discussed in both sections, to make the same point. The idea of the experience being reported as positive appears in both sections. Therefore, it seems to me that the separate 'positive' section serves only to accentuate a certain POV. I also noticed that Rind's meta-analysis of 59 college studies has been changed to 15 studies in one section, but continues to be 59 in the other--citation to the same publication. What am I missing?
In 'effects':
One study found that most men formerly involved in woman-boy sexual relations, however, evaluate their experience as positive upon reflection.[17]
Wakefield and Underwager note the difference between CSA experiences of males and females, where more males than females report the experience as neutral or positive, saying that "It may be that women perceive such experiences as sexual violation, while men perceive them as sexual initiation."[18] The research by Rind et al. suggests that this difference was present in 59 college studies on the issue, suggesting that males who claimed that their abuse was consensual were not significantly less well adjusted than the norm.[5]
In 'positive...':
Several studies have indicated that some children regard their sexual abuse positively.[39][40][41] Boys have a tendency to experience the sexual contacts as positive more often than girls. A meta-analysis by Rind et al. of 15 studies found that boys reacted positively in 37% of the cases while girls reacted positively in 11% of the cases.[5] The Rind study is criticized by other researchers on a number of grounds.
Adrian Coxell examined the effects of child sexual abuse in a sample of 2474 men in Great Britain and found that of those who had a sexual encounter prior to the age of 16, over half of the experiences had been consensual. (The mean age for first or only experience of abuse was 11, with a standard deviation of 3.) [42] An examination of the main effect of harm showed that the consenting children had no more problems than the control group.[43] Rind stated that the normal perception on child sexual abuse is based on an incest model where father-daughter incest serves as a model for child sexual abuse cases. He says that this view may not provide an accurate model for the effects of consensual experiences.[40]
What is "the main effect of harm" referred to here? "An examination of the main effect of harm showed that the consenting children had no more problems than the control group." Shouldn't we be told specifically what that main effect is? Did the analysis of other effects, not the "main effect" indicate that there were more problems? - Jmh123 17:30, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
I think the whole posotive bit needs throughly researching, eg children may report positive effects and a few years later realise their lives have been devastrated by this. There was a recent report on CNN of a sex offender of boys whop said he had thoyught hios victims would enjoy being abused as he thought he had enjoyed being abused, but doubtless if he hadnt been abused he would not have abused and this abusing clearly had ruined his life. I strongly support he merging into an effects section,
SqueakBox
17:49, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
there. ~[[ kinda]] 19:18, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
all we have is vague complaints, so--suggestions? ~[[ kinda]] 20:14, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
squeakbox was interested in this, so i may or may not write it. somebody should write it. here's my suggested sources:
for a historical perspective, this website has an pretty complete bibliography. ~[[ kinda]] 00:00, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
perhaps i'm impatient but we don't seem to be making much progress in reaching a version of this article we can agree on. are we waiting for something, or is the plan to just leave the tag on there for eternity? i'm not sure what i should do since there's very little reasonable imput on what needs to be done from the people who want to keep the tag. ~[[ kinda]] 00:30, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Someone bring that part back. That's a very important part. 80.167.84.86
Was it without connsensus. There certainly was no consensus to keep it. What information got lost? SqueakBox 21:29, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
So, are you (Nandaba) supporting the addition of something like the following into the legal section?
Sexual relations between children and adults is illegal. As such, children cannot consent to sexual relationships and all such contact is illegal and by definition, abusive.
DPeterson talk 02:13, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Removed false statement:
American age of consent laws may or may not apply to emancipated minors, particularly married or divorced individuals under the age of consent. Emancipated minors, including married or divorced teenagers, are legally adults. A 2003 U.S. Supreme Court case (Lawrence v. Texas) implies that adults have the right to sexual relations with other adults. Whether or not a 40 year old man having sex with an underaged divorced woman is legal is untested. Likewise, incest between emancipated minors and other adult family members is also legally untested.
In the states where emancipation is allowed, statutory rape and age of marriage laws still apply. An emancipated minor is not a status equal to that of adulthood. The laws are listed here: http://www.jlc.org/index.php/factsheets/emancipationus. Lawrence v. Texas has no bearing on sex with minors, and not having tested a law does not make the law of questionable application. ZeroZ 07:55, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Children may be the initiators of the sexual contact and aggressively seek it, as is shown in the following case involving a 12-year-old: It developed over time and was great. We became friends and I invited him over once when my parents weren’t home. I practically had to force sex on him because he was afraid about losing his job. Ended when I went away for the summer and he wasn’t a teacher at my school no more
this seems to be an original synethesis of facts, which Wikipedia:No original research discourages. as far as i know, rind does not use this case to argue that some children aggresively seek sex. ~[[ kinda]] 22:04, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
It absolutely does not belong here. Please can we concentrate on making this article more NPOV instead of making it less so, SqueakBox 22:33, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
You have made sucha claim just above, SqueakBox 23:54, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Pages would be great, SqueakBox 23:54, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Rind is controversial and contested. Extensive use of this is really off point and POV. Furthermore, the use of annecdotes is not useful to support statements. I still feel strongly, as other editors do, that this should NOT be in the article. If someone feels strongly otherwise, I'd suggest we conduct an informal poll to see what consensus exists. DPeterson talk 00:39, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Exactly right. It does not matter even a little bit if a child "initiates" sexual behavior. The problem is the adult's (or much older child's) behavior. Children are by our reckoning incapable of informed consent which is the basis of individual freedom. Abuse is the leveraging of a power imbalance to the disadvantage of another. The lack of informed consent is the power imbalance. The negative impact on children's normal development, and therefore to many other outcomes bearing directly on individual welfare is the disadvantage. Maybe a few of these basic concepts should preface the article. Vendrov 09:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
To use the latest tag you need to fill atleast one criteria (which is does not at this point):
- it contains a lot of unlikely information, without providing references.
- it contains information which is particularly difficult to verify.
- in, for example, a long list, some errors have been found, suggesting that the list as a whole may need further checking.
- it has been written (or edited) by a user who is known to write inaccurately on the topic.
Nandaba Naota 22:57, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
"The editors who published the critique of the Rind et al. study argued that it had little merit but published it anyway to keep the debate inside the scientific community."[33] The reference is to McNally, R. J. (2003). Remembering Trauma. The Belknap press of Harvard University press, p. 25. No indication is given as to the context of this statement. It sounds gossipy and unprofessional. Is it something that was said to someone in the hallway at a conference, on the phone, by e-mail, or was it published in a scientific study? If the latter, why isn't the study quoted rather than this book? Or is this simply the opinion of McNally, in which case the statement as written is inaccurate and misleading. The latter part of the statement makes no sense. As I understand it, the debate went beyond the scientific community very rapidly. And why publish a poor study for this reason when a poor study wouldn't have silenced critics anyway? Can this be clarified please? - Jmh123 02:24, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I do have access to this. Pertinent here:
McNally bemoans the (remarkably) unanimous Congressional condemnation of the Bruce Rind meta-analysis, which claims no evidence of ill effects of childhood sexual abuse, as “perhaps the most egregious example of (perceived) advocacy trumping science”. But he does not mention that Psychological Bulletin published two full-length methodological criticisms of the Rind paper. The problem with that meta-analysis is not just its conclusions, but its assumptions and methods: deficient science, not politics.
Another quote that isn't directly relevant, but:
McNally also states, startlingly, that “the low base rate of HIV infection in the general population means that a positive HIV test will almost always be wrong”. Huh?
There's also an angry response from McNally in a later issue. This is obviously an area of controversy. So we currently have in this entry Rind's study and a statement that Rind is controversial, followed by a statement demeaning Rind's critics, and we could now add another statement criticizing those who demean Rind's critics, or could we perhaps stick with the simple--"Rind said," "his study is controversial" and leave out the back room gossip and bickerfest? - Jmh123 15:47, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I have put tags on to lessen pov and those who are increasing pov with a misguided defence of pedophile criminals, can you please back off? We need an NPOV article not a pro pedophile rant, SqueakBox 03:16, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I dont wish it to reflect my POV at all, I wish it to reflect NPOV. This isnt a subject I have strong POVs about anyway, other than the normal ones almost everybody has and that is NPOV, SqueakBox 16:27, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Why was the following removed? [1]
Nandaba Naota 12:41, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I dont think we should include stuff only understandable by experts. can you source your claim Rind's research is the best in the field, SqueakBox 17:01, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
squeakbox said "pages would be great" in regard to sources. sorry if i went overboard. ~[[ kinda]] 18:23, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
the argument in the law section is unsourced and ridiculously illogical, so i'm going to replace it. here's my suggestion:
Perhaps the best known argument for prohibiting child sexual abuse was put forward by Finkelhor (1979). He argued that, because prepubescent children are ignorant of the mechanics and social aspects of sexuality, they cannot give informed consent since they do not understand what they are consenting to. (Finkelhor, D. (1979). What's wrong with sex between adults and children? Ethics and the problems of child abuse. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 49 (2), 692-697)
additions? ~[[ kinda]] 19:36, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Finkelhor (1979, 1984) many years ago already articulated the posi-tions Schmidt is currently espousing. But the weakness of his articulation is instructive, as it points to the problem of trying to be a scientist and a moralist simultaneously. Like Schmidt, Finkelhor argued that harm is not needed to establish the immorality and unacceptability of adult–child sex. Instead, Finkelhor continued, the unacceptability is based on the child’s inability to consent, because he does not know what he is getting into and he cannot say no. A critic then complained that, if it is true that children cannot make judgments about sex, how can they judge among rival claims of the various religious sects (e.g., agree with an adult to be taken to one church rather than another or none at all)?. Finkelhor responded that it is different with sex, because sex is more likely to be harmful. His argument is circular–the issue falls back to harm, even though harm is claimed to be unessential to the point. -- Nandaba Naota 19:45, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
why was this added? how is the controversy over this even deniable? there's a reason so many studies now control for family environment, you know... ~[[ kinda]] 21:02, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Its fair to assunme that people who persistently add pro pedophile material to wikipedia and attack those who want NPOV are pro pedophile activists, SqueakBox 21:43, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I deleted the following from the intro as I don't think it belongs there. Maybe other editors can comment on if it belongs at all, and if so, where:
The term have been criticized for implicating negative effects although empirical research have shown that this is not always the case. The use of negative terminology can have a negative biasing effect on how adult-nonadult sexual contacts is perceived. [1]
DPeterson talk 21:46, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
lol, I just made an edit that didnt ec and it turns out DPetersen made the exact same edit, SqueakBox 22:06, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Please stop edit warring while wrongly accusing others of doing so. It looks like you are trying to manipulate wiki[pedia rules to your advantage but wikipedia isnt a supporter of pedophilia or gaming the system, SqueakBox 23:06, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Well lying wont help nor will wikilawyering nor will anything else that is purely to support your POV that child sexual abuse is great, SqueakBox 23:11, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
SqueakBox just deleted a large chunk of text: [2] with no clear reason as to why. This must stop, you can't just remove things like that. Nandaba Naota 21:50, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
How about we blank the article and start over. This time we plan everything very carefully and base every decision on peer reviewed research. A work group with 4 serious editors would suffice.
Make new version
Not sure
Keep current version
I and anothe editor (Will Beback) requested and were granted page protection on this page because of Nandaba's edits. I continue to have concerns regarding Nandaba's Personal Attacks, for example, toward SqueakBox. DPeterson talk 23:40, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
"Sexual relations between children and adults is illegal. As such, children cannot consent to sexual relationships and all such contact is illegal and by definition, abusive."
problems with this: sexual contact is illegal because they cannot give informed consent, rather than they can't give informed consent because sexual contact is illegal. a prepubescent child's incapacity to give informed consent is a proposition established through logic, not an axiom. this argument is an unsourced mockery of the argument against child sexual abuse, so i'm going to replace with it finkelhor's well-known opinions. ~[[ kinda]] 18:34, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
"Pedophilia is a term often used to describe the acts of perpetrators and is a psychiatric diagnosis in the DSM-IV-R[2]." This is a confusing sentence. Could someone rewrite it? -- Gbleem 08:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I find the section on "Variation in cultural practices, norms and research findings" problematic. The first couple of sentences are not well-written at all. In the second two paragraphs there's a lot of appealing to the ancients, and I know from my own research in another field that ideas about what "archaic cultures" did are often speculative. A couple of the sources in the second paragraph--globalgayz and glbtq are not scientific sources. There's a list of cultural practices in the second paragraph, but only a few can be related to child sexual abuse. I understand the point of making a statement about culture relativism, but in my opinion this section is rather poorly written and vague. - Jmh123 16:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
There is no consensus as to whether past or present cultural practices in Western or non-Western societies can be defined as abusing either general universalistic human rights or special universalistic rights of minors. Cultural relativists argue that it is not right to condemn the practices of other cultures, even when repugnant to one's own; others may point to slavery as an example of a cultural norm of the pre- Civil War American South that was nearly universally rejected by others.
Some of the sexual or sex-related practices sanctioned by cultural norms in different cultures include cutting and bleeding of the genitals, female genital cutting, circumcision (of males), castration, infibulation, sexual relationships between adolescent boys and adult men sanctioned by the state and sanctified by religion in ancient Greece, sexual relationships between adolescent boys and adult males in feudal Japan, and adult-child sexual relations in a variety of tribal cultures.
I propose that the entire section be deleted. Please indicate your support or opposition below RalphLender talk 18:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
There's nothing here about the physical effects of child sexual abuse. I changed the title of the "effects" section to psychological effects, as that is the topic of that section. I believe an additional "physical effects" section would be appropriate. - Jmh123 20:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
The changes of the last couple of days look really good. ZeroZ 12:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 9 |
I'm going to take a whack at rewriting the entire section and present it here for discussion within 48 hours. ZeroZ 12:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
My uncited/unverified edit to this page with the section "sexual mistreatment of minors" was removed due to exclusionism due to the page being controversial. What do you think of the separate definition of "sexual mistreatment" of minors that involves exposing minors to sexual material/pornography and corrupting their mental, emotional, and psychological state? Is this topic already covered in this article or in sexual abuse, does it merit an article/stub article of its own, etc.?
See my original edit. -- Wykypydya 22:08, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
There are a couple of inaccurate or misleading claims about what is generally prohibited under CSA laws in the "Prohibited activities" section such as:
Sexual activity betweens two related adults is not a crime in all U.S. states. Also I believe their is often a legal distinction made between closely related adults/children and distantly related adults/children.
If a parent advocates masturbation as a safe alternative to sexual activities for their teen/preteen son or daughter and their son or daughter later masturbates in private because of this then in a sense they "induced a child to touch his/her genitals for the purpose of sexual gratification" but unless I'm mistaken no U.S. state would consider that a crime. I believe the activity would need to take place in the presence of the adult. If the part about "for the purpose of sexual gratification" was meant to refer to the inducer's sexual gratification then that should be made clear. If no one expresses any reason why I shouldn't make changes to these two statements then I will go ahead and fix them. -- Cab88 23:32, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
My suggestion would be to change the sentences: to read:
Does the above rewrites seem satisfactory to everyone? -- Cab88 02:16, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I recently added:
Nonetheless, many women are married before the age of 15, often to older men, without their consent, and with financial motivations: up to 20% in some nations and 50% in some regions. [2] In some regions the arranged marriage of the Prophet Muhammed to a six-year-old girl, consummated at the age of nine, [3] [4] [5], is taken to illustrate the virtue of the practice.
In reference to a speedy revert I deleted a somewhat peripheral comment that the practice is vigorously defended, with reference to Submission (film) and murdered filmmaker Theo Van Gogh, which admittedly is somewhat more relevant to my POV than to the article.
Nonetheless, the overall statement is very important. The article currently gives the clear impression throughout that child molestation has been universally marginalized and occurs only in a criminal context, when in reality it remains the law of the land, and of God, in many places. 204.186.20.137 16:03, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to propose we add a section that describes the reasons for child sexual abuse.
Although I don't have a source to provide, I believe it's safe to say sexual abuse isn't always perpetrated by pedophiles - those who are sexually attracted to children. It can also be due to marital problems, alcohol/drugs, a form of punishment, etc.
Although the "Regressed Offenders" section touches on this a little bit, it doesn't do so in great detail.
I think the distinction between "pedophile" and "child sex offender" should be noted - because as someone has stated in the article, the word "pedophile" has unfortunately become a colloquialism to refer to child sex offenders.
What are your thoughts on the matter?
To date there is a paucity of hard evidence to support either Finkelhor's model or the risk factors (Oates 1990). Oates believes that this can be used as an indication that child sexual abuse is a complicated phenomenon, with no simple solutions. Goddard and Carew (1993) contended that Finkelhor's model indicated more about how sexual abuse occurs rather than why it occurs. They argued that in order to understand sexual abuse, like other forms of child maltreatment, it is necessary to categorise and separate the various types of sexually abusive behaviour, given that different causative factors may be operating for each 'type' of abuse.
"Fear literally arises from the core of the brain, affecting all brain areas and their functions in rapidly expanding waves of neurchemical acticity...also important is a stress hormone called cortisol.", p. 64.
not only does this not explicitly support what it claims to, it appears to be speculative rather than empirical. i have never encountered any study supporting the claim made there in my research, and if a book just claims that rather than a study having found that, the statement should be either changed or removed, especially since empirical observations contradicts it. ~[[ kinda]] 23:58, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
It may be wrong and misleading but it should be included anyway, wikipedia does not claim to know the truth, it only speaks mirrors what other people say and beleive. If enough people beleive that the world is flat, then that will be the truth on wikipedia. Revolt against the modern world 11:09, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
It's up. I'm still working on formatting citations. Please comment here. - ZeroZ 12:04, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
By DSM def., if the behavior has a 6-month hx, then the person is a pedophile. DPeterson talk 13:12, 2 June 2007 (UTC)"Although the term pedophile is used colloquially to describe child sexual offenders, this is misleading, as not all child sexual offenders are principally sexually attracted to children, and not all pedophiles perpetrate child sexual abuse."
Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, OR behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children
DPeterson talk 13:12, 2 June 2007 (UTC)Pedophilia is a psychiatric diagnosis in the DSM-IV-R[2]; the term pedophile is often used colloquially to denote a child sexual abuser. The assailants can be of either sex as can the victim. Child sexual abuse is illegal in all countries about which information is available.
Under Effects (middle of third paragraph) it states:
I think this line may be inaccurate and should be removed:
Although the term "pedophile" is used colloquially to refer to child sexual offenders, this is inaccurate and confusing, because not all child sexual offenders meet the diagnostic criteria of pedophilia, and not all pedophiles act on their fantasies or urges.
for the following reasons:
1. A person convicted of child sexual abuse will generally meet the DSM criteria in all but a few very rare instances. 2. The convict will have engaged in activity involving secual activity 3. Age difference 4. Caused sign impairment on social functioning.
What do other editors think of changing this to:
The term "pedophile" is used colloquially to refer to child sexual offenders, although not all pedophiles act on their fantasies or urges, child sexual abuse, the activity, is illegal and also a mental illness.
DPeterson talk 13:36, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
This line:
The relationship between child sexual abuse and its attributed symptoms is contested,[30][45][46][47][48] because child sexual abuse frequently occurs alongside other possibly confounding variables, such as poor family environment.[49]
may not be accurate. The last study, #49, does 'not' reach the conclusion that, "The hypothesis advanced in this paper is that, in most cases, the fundamental damage inflicted by child sexual abuse is to the child's developing capacities for trust, intimacy, agency and sexuality, and that many of the mental health problems of adult life associated with histories of child sexual abuse are second-order effects." DPeterson talk 13:44, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I prpose deleting this line. What do others think? DPeterson talk 13:44, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
, the damage to these dimensions (trust, intimacy, etc) then lead to the other problems in later life not that those other issues (poor family environ) are confounding variables! Therefore, the line must go. DPeterson talk 20:56, 4 June 2007 (UTC)The hypothesis advanced in this paper is that, in most cases, the fundamental damage inflicted by child sexual abuse is to the child's developing capacities for trust, intimacy, agency and sexuality, and that many of the mental health problems of adult life associated with histories of child sexual abuse are second-order effects
Just reread the intro -- I don't agree with the new line that was added:
For individuals in late adolescence with Pedophilia, no precise age difference is specified, and clinical judement must be used.
But a person has to be 16 or older for this diagnosis. Persons younger than 16 *cannot* be diagnosed with pedophilia, according to the DSM-IV, because they don't fulfill Criterion C. (Of course, if someone younger than 16 commits child sexual abuse s/he *can* certainly be judged to be a sex offender.) Is there more information? - ZeroZ 03:36, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I have edited the intro along the lines of our discussion here. Removed the adjectives, added reference material to support the discussion of terminology. The 11:09am edit was me; got logged out accidentally. The line I asked about in "Query," just above this section, I left alone until we can reach consensus. Cheers, ZeroZ 11:29, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
your concerns HAVE BEEN ADDRESSED, as i have already explained thrice. there are NOT any comments here which are relevant to the information you are removing. please cease deleting material without discussion. ~[[ kinda]] 01:16, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I wish you'd read all the comments before you begin trying to argue a point. As I said before, the studies do not make your point...the study says, "The hypothesis advanced in this paper is that, in most cases, the fundamental damage inflicted by child sexual abuse is to the child's developing capacities for trust, intimacy, agency and sexuality, and that many of the mental health problems of adult life associated with histories of child sexual abuse are second-order effects." DPeterson talk 00:20, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Because child sexual abuse can occur alongside other possibly confounding variables, such as poor family environment and physical abuse, some scholars argue it is important to control for those variables in studies which measure the effects of sexual abuse [40][55][56][57][58] and some have hypothesized "that abuse effects are at least in part the results of dysfunctional family dynamics that support sexual abuse and produce psychological disturbance (Fromuth, 1986) and that concomitant physical or psychological abuse may account for some of the difficulties otherwise attributed to sexual abuse (Briere & Runtz, 1990)."[59] XXX, however, says, "in most cases, the fundamental damage inflicted by child sexual abuse is to the child's developing capacities for trust, intimacy, agency and sexuality, and that many of the mental health problems of adult life associated with histories of child sexual abuse are second-order effects." -- Jmh123 00:15, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
here is my attempt at the other side: "However, some other researchers say that controlling for these variables can be misleading, because sexual abuse may impact family environment negatively or bias the child's later perception of their family environment." ok? ~[[
kinda]]
00:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
What an old and minor article. DPeterson talk 01:32, 7 June 2007 (UTC) The paper, states just what I said, "The hypothesis advanced in this paper is that, in most cases, the fundamental damage inflicted by child sexual abuse is to the child's developing capacities for trust, intimacy, agency and sexuality, and that many of the mental health problems of adult life associated with histories of child sexual abuse are second-order effects." In other words, child sexual abuse causes serious pyschological damage because of its damaging effects on "the child's developing capacities for trust, intimacy, agency and sexuality." You've made my point, thank you. DPeterson talk 01:35, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
OK so we have this:
Because child sexual abuse can occur alongside other variables, such as poor family environment and physical abuse, some scholars argue it is important to control for those variables in studies which measure the effects of sexual abuse.[40][55][56][57][58] Briere has hypothesized that "some part of the effects are a result of dysfunctional family dynamics and that concomitant physical or psychological abuse may account for some of the difficulties otherwise attributed to sexual abuse."(add fn to Briere, one or both) Martin and Fleming, however, argue that, "in most cases, the fundamental damage inflicted by child sexual abuse is due to the child's developing capacities for trust, intimacy, agency and sexuality, and that many of the mental health problems of adult life associated with histories of child sexual abuse are second-order effects." - Jmh123 01:39, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
These are not confounding variable, but are 'INTERVENING' variables. That is an enormous difference. DPeterson talk 13:03, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I think the deletion is good and see no need to add anything else. SamDavidson 18:32, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Please stop adding material before consensus has been reached, Kind0. There exists a consensus to leave out the material you keep adding. I'd suggest you conduct an informal poll first before you continue on your edit war. DPeterson talk 22:55, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
You guys had an edit war over the capitalization of sections and subsections? I think it's fair to say that this article may be doomed ...I mean, come on now. At least argue over something important like the content or possibility of bias in cited research. Viper2k6 20:18, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
DPeterson (and a few others, to lesser extent) have insisted on removing the following information:
Originally, DPeterson justified this by pointing out that the reference used to evidence our assertion that child sexual abuse occurs alongside possibly confounding variables hypothesized that *many* of the problems attributed to CSA were "second-order effects." (See #Another line to be deleted.) However, this criticism is invalid--the cited article only sources the claim that "child sexual abuse frequently occurs alongside other possibly confounding variables, such as poor family environment." We do not claim that the relationship found between CSA and mental health problems is a spurious one, and we certainly do not cite that study to prove any such claim. The study is cited because of its summary of occurence alongside confounding variables: it says, "Child sexual abuse is not randomly distributed through the population. It occurs more frequently in children from socially deprived and disorganised family backgrounds (Finkelhor and Baron 1986; Beitchman et al. 1991; Russell 1986; Peters 1988; Mullen et al. 1993)." Additionally, although family environment, etc. certainly confounds with child sexual abuse and in this manner increases the found effect size of studies which fail to control for it, many studies have found that though the relationship between CSA and adult psychopathology lessens when family environment is controlled for, it does not disappear entirely. This is in accordance with that studies hypothesis: _many_ of the associations found are indeed valid.
Regardless, I replaced this source to avoid further bickering. I pointed this out multiple times, but DPeterson hasn't yet acknowledged my change. The new study, which is anyway better and published in a more academic forum, is by the same auther as the previous and concludes: "Abuse of all types was more frequent in those from disturbed and disrupted family backgrounds. The background factors associated with reports of abuse were themselves often associated to the same range of negative adult outcomes as for abuse. Logistic regressions indicated that some, though not all, of the apparent associations between abuse and adult problems was accounted for by this matrix of childhood disadvantage from which abuse so often emerged." This indisputably supports the statement. Thus, I conclude that this issue is resolved and no longer relevant. DPeterson is welcome to explain any more objections he may have.
DPeterson gave a different argument on 6 June. He said, "The reason is that these are a very minor point and we should not give undue weight to ti. [sic]." First, lets deal with the policy he cites, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Undue_weight--a policy he has apparently not read. The policy says, "Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all." A "tiny-minority view" is apparently a view held by a very, very few people, and one for which it isn't "easy to name prominent adherents" of.
For anyone familiar with the study of CSA effects, this methodological issue is notable and definitely not only considered by a "tiny minority." Briere & Elliot, in their 1993 paper discussing the issue, note that "The most critical issue is wellknown to behavioral scientists: Does the statistical relationship between abuse and later distress reflect a causal phenomenon (i.e., does childhood sexual abuse have negative psychological impact), or is the relationship caused by other variables such as concomitant family dysfunction or the impact of other events during or after the abuse" (p.284) Indeed, dozens of researchers have expounded on this methodological issue in papers, (eg. Berliner and Conte, 1993; Pope and Hudson, 1995; Levitt & Pinnell, 1995; etc.) and many studies now control for confounding variables (eg. Ageton, 1988; Nash et al. 1993; Roosa et al., 1999; Levitan et al, 2003; Kendler et al. 2000; Boney-McCoy & Finkelhor 1995; Fergusson et al. 1996; Fleming et al. 1999; Molnar, Berkman et al. 2001; Rind and Tromovitch, 1997; Rind et al., 1998; Widom, 1999; Mullen et al. 1993; Stein et al. 1988; Beitchman et al., 1991; Fromuth & Burk, 1989; Gidycz et al., 1995; Higgins & McCabe, 1994; Cole, 1988; Fromuth, 1986; Yama et al., 1992; Pallotta, 1992; etc.) Nash et al. concluded that: "Perceived family environment appears to be an important mediating variable in determining general level of adult psychological distress ... Subsequent adult impairment may be an effect not only of abuse but also of the context in which it is embedded." (Nash, et al. (1993), p.282) Additionally, those studies which do not control for family environment and other confounding variables now often note that their findings are limited by this (eg. Beitchman et al, 1992; Najman et al., 2005; etc.)
I believe I have demonstrated the notability of this issue. Following from this notability, it should be included per Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Indeed, it is not even a minority view in the scientific realm, though I'm not sure how I would go about proving this. I am open to including other viewpoints, including Briere and Elliot's position, which can be summarized as follows: "However, some researchers say that controlling for these variables can be misleading, because sexual abuse may impact family environment negatively or bias the child's later perception of their family environment."
Finally to address DPeterson's claim that I must stop discussing this and poll instead: he is simply wrong. On Wikipedia, consensus is built through meaningful discussion, and polls can never establish consensus--see Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion. If DPeterson has no valid reason for excluding this, it should be in the article. A few of his friends saying "me too" is not relevant, per Wikipedia policy.
Over! ~[[ kinda]] 17:35, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Since no one is willing to provide any arguments against Kinda, Kinda's version should be restored. 00a00a0aa 23:30, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Proposed alternative for full paragraph in which disputed text appeared:
Because child sexual abuse can occur alongside other possibly confounding variables, such as poor family environment and physical abuse, [6] some scholars argue it is important to control for those variables in studies which measure the effects of sexual abuse [7] [8] [9] [10], and some have hypothesized "that abuse effects are at least in part the results of dysfunctional family dynamics that support sexual abuse and produce psychological disturbance (Fromuth, 1986) and that concomitant physical or psychological abuse may account for some of the difficulties otherwise attributed to sexual abuse (Briere & Runtz, 1990)." [11] Martin and Fleming, however, argue that, "in most cases, the fundamental damage inflicted by child sexual abuse is due to the child's developing capacities for trust, intimacy, agency and sexuality, and that many of the mental health problems of adult life associated with histories of child sexual abuse are second-order effects" while the primary variable is the sexual abuse. [12] Kendler et al. found an independent association of child sexual abuse with adverse psychological outcomes. [8] [7] [13], and found that most of the relationship between severe forms of child sexual abuse and adult psychopathology in their sample could not be explained by family discord, because the effect size of this association decreased only slightly after they controlled for possible confounding variables. Their examination of a small sample of CSA-discordant twins also supported a causal link between child sexual abuse and adult psychopathology; the CSA-exposed subjects had a consistently higher risk for psychopathologic disorders than their CSA non-exposed twins. [8] (full ref data is missing) After controlling for possible confounding variables, Widom (1999) found that child sexual abuse independently predicts the number of symptoms for PTSD a person displays. 37.5% of their sexually abused subjects, 32.7% of their physically abused subjects, and 20.4% of their control group met the criteria for a diagnosis of PTSD. The authors concluded, "Victims of child abuse (sexual and physical) and neglect are at increased risk for developing PTSD, but childhood victimization is not a sufficient condition. Family, individual, and lifestyle variables also place individuals at risk and contribute to the symptoms of PTSD." [14]
This version flows more smoothly, and contextualizes the material beginning with Kendler more effectively than the previous version. - Jmh123 23:42, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
The proposal still has lots of problems...best just to leave it out as others suggest. For example, the lines:
Because child sexual abuse can occur alongside other possibly confounding variables, such as poor family environment and physical abuse,[5] some scholars argue it is important to control for those variables in studies which measure the effects of sexual abuse[6][7][8][9], and some have hypothesized "that abuse effects are at least in part the results of dysfunctional family dynamics that support sexual abuse and produce psychological disturbance (Fromuth, 1986) and that concomitant physical or psychological abuse may account for some of the difficulties otherwise attributed to sexual abuse (Briere & Runtz, 1990)."[10]
have several problems. First, I don't think the term "confounding" is used in cite 5...I don't see that 6, 7, 8, and 9 state that they, "argue it is important..." The quote is from a very old cite...not really relevant. and, if you must propose using it, you do need a page number. I could go on...but this is indicative of the problems with this section and why it just should be left out completed as others have suggested. DPeterson talk 00:36, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, RalphLender, it does look like there is a clear agreement or consensus among five or six editors and only one (or two?) who seem to disagree. Deletion is the plan now. SamDavidson 19:29, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
The previous suggestions were did not address the concerns raised in this and other sections above. But if otherw want to take a stab a developing a compromise, that's fine with me. As it stands now, most editors agree this is not a releveant section and gives undue weight...But If Will Beback or otherw want to try something different, I am open to that. DPeterson talk 00:42, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I am a registered user in other wikis, and I just happened to have read the whole discussion page. I find repulsive that people with clear pro-paedophile viewpoints are even allowed to write about this issue in Wikipedia, their lack of humanity and empathy is self-evident in their quest to find pathetic materialistic justifications to approach the issue of children sexual abuse from a "it's not always negative for the kid's health" point, while completely ignoring the clear psychological and human side-effects .
Emanuele -- 81.125.177.1 07:42, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
How about the following:
Some writers argue it is important to control for variables that may be associated with child sexual abuse, such as physical abusele, in studies which measure the effects of sexual abuse[40][57]. Martin and Fleming, however, argue that, "in most cases, the fundamental damage inflicted by child sexual abuse is due to the child's developing capacities for trust, intimacy, agency and sexuality, and that many of the mental health problems of adult life associated with histories of child sexual abuse are second-order effects."[60]
DPeterson talk 23:36, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}} The above proposal has broad agreement. Please add it to the effects of child abuse section at the end. Thanks. DPeterson talk 22:02, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
The revision is an improvement, but, in my opinion, it is not as effective as it could be as an topical introduction to the studies which follow in that paragraph, studies which, other than Rind, highlight results in studies in which significant effects are found even when variables are controlled for. Diminishing the issue diminishes the power of the response. See below for an alternative possibility. I have made several changes throughout in attempt to emphasize the topic of the paragraph. Rather than leading with Rind, I think it is more effective to lead with a general statement about the issue that Rind raised. - Jmh123 21:38, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
first, please reread the paragraph as it is written in the current entry:
Rind et al.'s[47] disputed 1998 meta-analysis of studies using college student samples concluded that the relationship between poorer adjustment and child sexual abuse is generally found nonsignificant in studies which control for these variables.[55] Other more current studies, however, have found an independent association of child sexual abuse with adverse psychological outcomes.[56][40][43] Kendler et al. (2000) found that most of the relationship between severe forms of child sexual abuse and adult psychopathology in their sample could not be explained by family discord, because the effect size of this association decreased only slightly after they controlled for possible confounding variables. Their examination of a small sample of CSA-discordant twins also supported a causal link between child sexual abuse and adult psychopathology; the CSA-exposed subjects had a consistently higher risk for psychopathologic disorders than their CSA non-exposed twins.[56] After controlling for possible confounding variables, Widom (1999) found that child sexual abuse independently predicts the number of symptoms for PTSD a person displays. 37.5% of their sexually abused subjects, 32.7% of their physically abused subjects, and 20.4% of their control group met the criteria for a diagnosis of PTSD. The authors concluded, "Victims of child abuse (sexual and physical) and neglect are at increased risk for developing PTSD, but childhood victimization is not a sufficient condition. Family, individual, and lifestyle variables also place individuals at risk and contribute to the symptoms of PTSD."[42]
proposed revision of paragraph:
Some scholars argue that research into the effects of child sexual abuse must control for possibly confounding variables such as poor family environment and physical abuse [cite], and one controversial study concluded that the relationship between poorer adjustment and child sexual abuse is generally insignificant in studies which control for these variables. (cite Rind here) However, other researchers have countered that controlling for these variables can be misleading, because sexual abuse may impact family environment negatively or bias the child's later perception of their family environment. (cite Martin and Fleming) Some more current studies that have addressed this issue by controlling for possibly confounding variables have found significant effects due to child sexual abuse. For example, Kendler et al. found an independent association of child sexual abuse with adverse psychological outcomes.[7][6][12], and found that most of the relationship between severe forms of child sexual abuse and adult psychopathology in their sample could not be explained by family discord, because the effect size of this association decreased only slightly after they controlled for possible confounding variables. Their examination of a small sample of CSA-discordant twins also supported a causal link between child sexual abuse and adult psychopathology; the CSA-exposed subjects had a consistently higher risk for psychopathologic disorders than their CSA non-exposed twins.[7] (full ref data is missing) After controlling for possible confounding variables, Widom found that child sexual abuse independently predicts the number of symptoms for PTSD a person displays. 37.5% of their sexually abused subjects, 32.7% of their physically abused subjects, and 20.4% of their control group met the criteria for a diagnosis of PTSD. [13] (delete final sentence from current entry, as the conclusion conflates physical and sexual abuse, and therefore reaches beyond the topic at hand.)
This is good. I suggest:
Also, [7][6][12] should be before "For example, Kendler," and some parts seem poorly placed. Briere and Elliot initially appear to be responding to Rind, and "However, more current studies" seems like a reply to Briere and Elliot. Confusing... ~[[ kinda]] 23:01, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
This is not an acceptable proposal. But the one above has the approval of all editors, except these two. DPeterson talk 00:55, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
This is a good start, It's good enough to be included in the article. 00a00a0aa 09:01, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Only you disagree and Kinda...You cannot hold the article hostage to your minority views which are POV and not acceptable to the consensus of editors here. If you continue to act in a disruptive manner by reverting accepted edits you do risk being sanctioned by an administrator. DPeterson talk 15:57, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
[[ kinda]] Accusations of me as a "sockpuppet" are clearly a Personal attack. I ask you to stop immediately and apologize for making a knowlingly false statment. DPeterson talk 22:05, 10 June 2007 (UTC) The evidence is at [ [16]] DPeterson talk 22:08, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
This is your last warning. If you continue to make personal attacks, you will be blocked for disruption.
Making false accusations of sockpuppetry is a very serious offense and is a Personal attack, an apology is in order. DPeterson talk 22:38, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
00a00a0aa, do not delete other editor's comments on talk pages, that is considered vandalism and there can be very serious sanctions for that.
DPeterson
talk 22:55, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Please do not
delete or edit legitimate talk page comments, as you did at
Child sexual abuse; this is considered
vandalism. If you would like to experiment, please use the
sandbox. Thank you.
DPeterson
talk
23:03, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Jmh123, please do not delete other editor's comments on talk pages as you just did to me on this page. That is considered vandalism and there can be very serious sanctions for that.
Please do not
delete or edit legitimate talk page comments, as you did at
Child sexual abuse; this is considered
vandalism. If you would like to experiment, please use the
sandbox. Thank you.
DPeterson
talk
00:03, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
When people are trying to remove material that have major impact on the research area while claiming that it is undue weight to even include it, then we have major problem. It doesn't matter if it is ignorance or in bad faith, it just isn't possible to edit this article under such conditions. Let's settle this in ArbCom and get it done already. 00a00a0aa 00:45, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Ok, let's just continue as usual then. I'm sure everything will work itself out in the end. 00a00a0aa 08:44, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I propose to integrate the new South Africa [15] material into our layout more thoroughly. The first paragraph, which discusses South African law, certainly should remain where it is, in the Legal section. But I would like the other two paragraphs, discussing incidence and the "virgins/AIDS cure" offender rationale, moved to the Medical section (perhaps to the Epidemiology and Offenders subsections, respectively). - ZeroZ 09:11, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Can i get a full reference to Kendler et al. (2000), it seems to be missing in the article. 00a00a0aa 09:06, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Rind et al.'s[47] controversial 1998 meta-analysis of studies using college student samples concluded that the relationship between poorer adjustment and child sexual abuse is generally found nonsignificant in studies which control for these variables.[55] Other more current studies, however, have found an independent association of child sexual abuse with adverse psychological outcomes.[56][40][43]
Does the other "more current" studies control for those variables? I skimmed through Levitan and did not find that it was the case in the study. I could be wrong so before I do anything drastic, feel free to comment on this. 00a00a0aa 09:13, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Edit warring over "however" is pitiful. Let's first figure out, here on this talk page, what we want to say and then let's say it, rather than the other way around. I've protected the page for a couple of days to give us all a chance to take some deep breaths and carry on. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:12, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree, but at the same time I don't think the problem has been resolved. If anyone's noticed, I came on here once to contribute to the article and then left because...consensus doesn't seem to be one of our strengths. Um...if you want my opinion on the matter, I think everyone's so caught up in their own views that they're not really open to change. Or, they'll say that they're open to change, but then reject every opposing suggestion. I also noticed a lot of personal attacks...for example anytime someone suggests the possibility of there not being a causal relationship between CSA and negative effects, they're automatically labeled a pro-pedophile activist...which not only is an absurd statement to make, but it's also irrelevant either way.
Also, on a side note (since everyone's so anal about giving "undue weight" to unimportant issues), why does the article focus so much on the legalities of sexual abuse? About 1/3 of the article focuses on the laws in place prohibiting sexual abuse ...which is useful if I actually planned on abusing a child, but not good if I'm here to get an introduction to the topic. Would it not make sense to include sections on prevalence, children at risk, child grooming, and prevention? I mean Wikipedia is the 4th search result on Google for child sexual abuse ... in a sense, you almost have a responsibility to give an accurate introduction to the topic. And as a potential parent seeking information, all I'm going to leave here knowing is what legally constitutes sexual abuse/molestation. Is that really your goal here? I don't know...I'm gonna go to bed now. Though I strongly hope that you consider everything I've said... Viper2k6 05:14, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Addressing Viper2k6's comment: while I am sure many sorts of information can and should be included in the article, there are excellent reasons to begin with and to include thorough information on the legal issues around child sexual abuse.
First, because child sexual abuse constitutes a set of crimes, a clear statement about the acts that constitute those crimes is useful for readers. Most people are unfamiliar with the method in which such crimes are reported by law enforcement nationwide, and definition of the terms provides a common language.
Second, earlier versions of this article tended toward weasel language in describing the nature of the criminal acts and their punishment. An argument I have seen advanced for that weasel language was that state laws differ in their specifics. That argument, however, badly misrepresents the relative uniformity in the elements of child sexual abuse law and in the trend toward increasing sanctions for adult perpetrators. Therefore, a discussion of certain legal commonalities, such as the inability of minors to consent, provides basic information for persons consulting the article as a general reference.
Third, modern inquiry into medical issues, such as prevalence, or sociological issues, such as risk of victimization, proceed from recognition of the crime of child sexual abuse in local, national, and international laws. The most complete discussion of offender motivations cannot describe the elements of a crime, or the legal response of a community or nation in addressing criminal acts. (As an analogy, a complete description of kleptomaniac motivation cannot substitute for information on the crime of robbery.) Medical information is vital in illuminating sequelae of child abuse, and psychology offers information on the motivation of some offenders. But these disciplines do not speak to, and cannot substitute for clear statements about, the fact that our culture, our laws, and the laws of other cultures judge sexual activity with children as crimes. Whatever else may be added, clear information about child sexual abuse as a set of criminal and civil offenses constitutes a basic requirement for this article. - ZeroZ 10:42, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Done. Moved the "virgin/AIDS cure myth" material into the Epidemiology subsection. It now follows (in a new paragraph) immediately after: female sexual abuse of males is often seen as 'desirable' and/or beneficial by judges, mass media pundits and other authorities. Of course, if it works better elsewhere within the Medical section, do move it. Cheers. - ZeroZ 13:20, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Obviously may need some work (citations, rephrasing), but it's a start:
Any child can be a victim of child sexual abuse. However in the U.S., most recent studies show that Caucasian children account for the highest percentage of child sexual abuse, second being Hispanics, and third being African Americans. 1 The average age group for child sexual abuse is 8-11, with an average age of 9.9 for boys and 9.6 for girls. Additionally, children who are on the brink of puberty are at a high risk for abuse, as many child sex offenders will take advantage of their developing sexual curiosity. Furthermore, children who lack confidence or do not have strong social support (i.e. friends, family, etc) are at a much higher risk for sexual abuse, as many sex offenders will seek out such children. Lastly, children with special needs (i.e. lacking a father figure, living in poverty) are also at a higher risk for abuse because many offenders will shower such children with attention and gifts only to abuse their relationship at a more opportune time. Despite this however, it should be noted that sexual abuse occurs in both lower and upper class families, and is not limited to any specific demographic. Viper2k6 14:57, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks everyone for your input. Give me a few days...I'm kinda busy with other stuff. I'll post the revised version with citations when I'm ready (on the talk page). Viper2k6 02:22, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
twin
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).levitan
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).widom
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).