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I created this page on the basis that there is little knowledge about this subject anywhere. All material pertaining to this issue weems to have a POV attached to it and therefore anybody who is looking for answers and not persuation should try and find it here. I do need help though filling out this page. Please help me do so, not only for me, but for the Cherokee people who need to make up their own minds and not be persuaded by political and tribal factions. Iwasmad 14:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I think the paragraph about him at the end could probably go into its own article. Smmurphy( Talk) 16:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone mind if this is moved to (or merged with the old version) of Cherokee Freedmen, which is currently a redirect? If not, at least a good deal of the history could go over there. Smmurphy( Talk) 05:57, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
The section called "The Issue" came from an old version of Cherokee Freedmen that was brought here when Cherokee Freedmen became a redirect (at least I think I remember that being the case). The section was a bit POV, and a bit redundant with the history section. The section has now been renamed "Issue summary," which seems to be less POV (and much better cited), but still a bit redundant with other sections. However, I think that the redundancy is ok, but it should be in the lead section, rather than the issue summary section. Thus, I think that the old section (if/where it was citable and NPOV), the rewrite, and the lead should all be merged into a new lead. Best, Smmurphy( Talk) 18:17, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
My first issue with the page is that the "Issue" section, which had information that has NEVER been stated in any media or information in the Freedmen situation. Chief Smith has never stated that he did the election for the Cherokee who are of African slave descent and it's been known to people who have been following the case that there hasn't been anything that even alluded to that before and after the March 3rd ruling and the federal case announcement (and I even put up his actual words from the announcement of the election). That right there is not in accordance to Wikipedia's NPOV policy, which I read before I made ANY changes.
As far as the "Diversity" pictures go, the Cherokee Nation recently made those ads in response to the allegations of racism with the Freedmen sitation. Putting those ads up with no indication of their origin and what the pictures were for is definetely not contributing to the article. And in the "history" log, the previous editor removed ALL the recent formation on the case, but stated that all he did was "replace photos removed and intro".
Another issue is the issue of the census information and other recent information about the Freedmen controversy that has been completely removed from the page. Now the original claim in the revision before mine is that "unsourced material" was removed, but all of my statements were cited with links and information backing up all my statements unlike the previous revison. I find it funny that my information was removed yet the information that was replaced had nothing backing up the statements made.
The recent changes I made was an update with recent information (once again sourced) with the action that has happened after the loss of citizenship (which was again removed by the previous edit and recent edit) and announcement of Bill HR 2824, additions to the previous statements that were missing from the previous edit, information about Cherokee slavery and lawsuits, removed the "issue" part because it was not factual and kind of redundant since the issue is in the header, and the merge of my previous edit to the header per the suggestion of smmurphy stated in this discussion (also putting parts of the original my original edit in other sections). The original article had three or four references. I had twenty four references.
Even though I followed all the guidelines, the changes were removed and the previous article was replaced. My concern with this article is that there is some misinformation, omitted infomation, factual information becaing removed, and the neutrality is definitely in question. If this keeps going on with each edit, there's no point in putting up accurate information.
Stormshadows00 18:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
First you put "This user is suspected to be a "sock puppet of JohnC1" in my information and you have made changes to my profile page with that statement. I don't know what a "sock puppet" and I don't know who or what "JohnC1" is. But I do know one thing. I've read each and every guideline on wikipedia and according to them, you are putting false information and ommited information that has everything to with the Cherokee Freedmen situation. I have not violated any rule or guideline here and a believe harassment by a fellow user is a guideline on here. My edits can be verified with the twenty four links that I put on this page. (And for your information, many people call the tribe "Cherokee Nation Of Oklahoma"). ALL of MY edits that I, stormshadows00, made are completely cited and I don't know where you get off coming at me with "unsourced material", "he's a sockpuppet" and "libel Chad Smith". You've deleted almost all of the original article plus deleted information that actually happened. And to me, you're not being neutral or even about putting up the actual information.
And now you want to say I'm "JohnC1" or whoever he or she is and call me a "sockpuppet" in my profile? That's clear sign that you're foul about this. Stormshadows00 21:04, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I reverted Jeffreys reversion, as I think a bit too much was removed (for instance, why did you take out the categories, you changed some facts oddly, you removed all reference to Mcloghlin's work, which had been there for some time, etc.). If something is a BLP issue, that, and only that, can be removed on sight, although even for that it would be nice to discuss it here. For the rest, please get a concensus before any major changes. Thanks, Smmurphy( Talk) 04:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Guys, if you want to lob insults, do so somewhere else. The discussion page is to discuss content. I put back the bit about Watts and Smith not knowing about the Freedmen, but I clarified the Smith part, and I added a bit from the Freedmen perspective, so it is balanced. Let me know what you think. Best, Smmurphy( Talk) 15:41, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I added a couple fact tags, but I stopped. Basically, when an article is contended, you can assume that most statements might be challenged, and its always better to add a citation than remove such a tag. More importantly, I removed a couple sentences with racist statements, as they don't really need to be repeated. Saying that the letter contained racist statements (or perhaps saying that so-and-so said that the letter contained racist statements) is enough, and I don't think it is generally necessary to repeat stuff like that. Smmurphy( Talk) 03:35, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Please do not remove the images again without valid discussion or place uncited statements which are libel into our project. Thanks. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 19:48, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Just a note, per WP:HEAD, generally only the first word in a section is capitalized. I'll get around to checking things out more in depth later, keep up the good work. Best, Smmurphy( Talk) 00:59, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Pleas bring specific issues you have with the lead to the talk page, rather than reverting. Most of the material is cited, and citations are being brought into a standard form. Constructive criticism is appreciated. Best, Smmurphy( Talk) 13:27, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
The article says that "descendants of the Cherokee Freedmen are Cherokee and were allowed to register to become enrolled citizens of the Cherokee Nation." The issue that I have with the current phrasing is that there is more than one way to understand "being" Cherokee. You can "be" a legal citizen of the Nation. You can "be" a Cherokee by blood. You can "be" a Cherokee by culture. The court ruling, which never uses the phrase "are Cherokee" or "is Cherokee" anywhere in it, says that descendants of Cherokee Freedmen are legally citizens of the Nation. It does not say a single word about which continent their great-great-great-great-grandparents were born on, what their race (a socially constructed concept anyway) is, or whether anyone is Cherokee by culture. It merely says that they are properly citizens of the Nation. I'd like to lose the ambiguous (and IMO, POV) language in favor of emphasizing what the court ruling actually says. WhatamIdoing 14:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Should the heading 'Cherokee freedmen controversy' be changed to 'Cherokee freedmen descendants' controversy perspective'? Objective facts are persistently deleted, and thus the article fails to address the depth and complexity of the issues. D.D.Bear ( talk) 05:02, 9 July 2008 (UTC) D.D.Bear 07/09/2008
You erased the membership language at Article III section 1 and the cite to the 1975 constitution. Readers should get NPOV, not revisionist history conclusions. Otherwise, it might be best to change the title of this perspective to what it is repeatedly undone to be: one half of the Cherokee Freedmen controversy.
If all the gaming ceased, and 'both' sides were presented factually, the world would learn a few things and we'd all get what we have to have out of this mismatched 'controversy.' I start from the good faith view that "all sides are true" and objective reality includes it all, without blaming it on any past or present Chief, or demonizing people who, they would say, were acting out of a positive motive that was incidentally hurtful. If the facts just give the freedmen side, and someone believes that is all there is to it, then there will always be more chapters and no repose. Because you know that self-determinism is the same thing to the Cherokees as freedom was to the Freedmen. I propose we take this to a higher level, and put both sides' story on the table, for the world to see. Or, alternatively that we stop misrepresenting it as 'the controversy.' Because, 'the controversy' is not just one conclusory, accusatory, oversimplified, viewpoint. 75.104.66.148 ( talk) 21:36, 9 July 2008 (UTC)D.D.Bear July 9, 2008
By 'revisionist history' I was referring to replacing the 1975 'facts as then known'(constitution words) with the 2006 ruling. Including the 2006 ruling language is proper when talking about 2006. But its revisionist history when that court ruling is stated retroactively and ex post facto, outside the context of the ambiguities in the Constitution that the 3 Chiefs were sworn to enforce. Here's why I think the article is biased under your reversion: Starting in 1976 the citizenship language was changed, for the first time since the postreconstruction national council resolution making the Freedmen citizens in the first place. It is perhaps the only early indicator of voter intent (albeit subject to two interpretations) we see during the period preceding the post-ruling Petition Drive. Wiki readers shouldn't be censored from reading that fascinating ambiguity. And the implications, both ways, should be explored. There should be a whole paragraph on the intent and meaning of Article III Section 1, with all the records and evidence that would tend to lean the 'real time' interpretation one way or another. Both persuasions. Not a vacuum. The concern, I'm sure, is that if the history articles were to show that the 1975 Constitution were passed with everyone knowing it was a vote to end Freedmen Descendant benefits... then it was the will of the majority and it would indicate that the Freedmen Descendants have taken the wrong strategy and might have to back up and take one of many other approaches to get a resolution. My sense is that interviews with the remaining living 1975 Constitutional Committee members would show they were not particularly attuned to the implications of the language. Were there news articles? In other words, was the 1975 election (1976?) determinative of any expression of public will by the Cherokee voters? It may be that the Constitutional passage itself was objected-to by Cherokee Freedmen Descendants. It seems POV to keep the discussion from 'going there' if in fact thisd article is about the controversy and not just about espousing the facts favorable to one side's position.
The positions on the controvery are stalled on the wrong rock. There are mutually-satisfying solutions available because it appears that the Cherokee Nation and the Freedmen Descendants want different things. So, relish the impasse. But when you are ready to move on to mutual success, then give it up on the censorship and lets put it all on the table. The best is yet to come for all. 75.104.66.148 ( talk) 19:38, 10 July 2008 (UTC)D.D. Bear, Thursday July 10, 2008
There are some changes being made that definitely need to be discussed because it's conflicting with previous material.
-Principal Chief Smith is one of the most vocal opponents of the freedmen reinstatement. It's been his stance since this started and the citied articles below has him quoted on his stance.
--The cited material didn't state that 2,800 Cherokee Members "currently enrolled in the tribe". It was talking about the Freedmen descendants in general.
-If the Cherokee had laws governing slave ownership and slave codes (which are stated in the article), the statement "the nature of slavery in Cherokee society" is an accurate statement.
-It's not "some Freedmen were put on the Freedmen" roll. There were 0 Freedmen placed on the "By Blood" roll because that roll in particular was for "blood Cherokee". All former slaves ("freedmen") were placed on the Freedmen roll and their children, whether they had a Cherokee parent or not, were on the roll as well. That was the whole purpose of the Freedmen Roll.....to list the Freedmen.
-"Loss Of Membership": The focus is not on the Intermarried Whites. The descendants of the Intermarried Whites, the spouse of the Cherokee already listed on the By Blood Roll, were not affected because their descendants are Cherokee based on the fact that part of their ancestry (the blood Cherokee) that is on the Cherokee By Blood Roll. I do think there should be some clarification on that and not lumping those two groups because the focus is on one and not the other.
-Freedmen were still around in 1907. It should be "some Freedmen and their descendants" because both did vote in the tribal elections.
-Dawes Rolls of 1902 is listed plain as day. There's no need to clarify.
-- Stormshadows00 ( talk) 16:25, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
About this: "Regardless of how it came to be, the result was that since the Freedmen Rolls had no record of Indian blood like the other Dawes Rolls, they lost their right to vote."
Stormshadows00, can you expand (in the text) on the Freedmen Rolls not having at least have a blood quantum designation for those who were African Cherokees? In other words, two things seem to have been going on with the Dawes Commission: Just one drop of African ancestry would result in a person being placed on the segregated list; and Cherokee blood quantum numbers, when and if known for these individuals, were omitted. For instance, did they just not figure Cherokee blood for biracials? Did they sometimes have blood quantum info from earlier rolls and not carry it over? Was it written some place else? Or was it a situation where the Dawes Commission didn't foresee that information ever being used because the Treaty of 1866 took care of it as a legal substitution for blood quantum? And were there any writings by the Dawes Commission about that?
(Because, possibly the segregated Dawes Rolls is the sourcepoint of today's split and one of the resolutions eventually might be to look back at federal complicity via segregation.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by D.D.Bear ( talk • contribs) 05:53, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm looking back on the 'stripped them' reversions by Stormshadows00, where that term is reinserted. Seems that one can revoke voting rights, deny voting rights, disenfranchise voting rights, disavow voting rights, and more, but 'stripping' someone of voting rights is poor grammar (personification) (and POV).
I have not given up hope that Wiki can be a place for objectively, both sides, in one spot. A definitive place to go to hear the controversy from both sides. Maybe break it up into 2 topics so each side can tell one side of the story and it can be a collaborative effort without a dominator. D.D.Bear ( talk) 20:06, 23 July 2008 (UTC)D.D. Bear July 23, 2008
I think we need to make a change to the line: "From the 1830s to 1860s, some Cherokee began to hold a more British-American view of slavery."
After a 20yr campaign the slave trade was ruled illegal in the British Empire in 1807, and all slaves freed by 1833.
Unless this was also the view of the Cherokee from 1830-1860, I think the line should be edited. -- 92.9.78.194 ( talk) 09:41, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
I would suggest we move this section to the main Cherokee page and leave a summary and reference to the main page. Considering how substantial this section is it makes sense to paint an accurate albeit complex (not to mention highly intriguing) picture of who the Cherokee were and what we know they did (despite it be challenging to our modern political POVs). Anotherpinkfloydinthewall ( talk) 21:58, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Hello everyone my name is Joe Howard and i am the author of a controversial Journal/Essay Called The Freedmens Hidden War.I am of Choctaw/Cherokee Freedmen Decent from the Howard and Roger Family and yes i do have ties to Norma Howard and Roger folks in Oklahoma and Texas.I would like to see if my Blog could be linked with Freedmen Articles and Norma Howard Articles as well my Blog address is www.wordwarrior.typepad.co Thanks Joe Howardəɵʉɔː —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.139.96.102 ( talk) 20:48, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Since the image is publicity by the Cherokee Nation, as if to prove its actions against the Freedmen are not discriminatory, it seems odd to have it in this article, which necessarily covers the exclusion of the Cherokee Freedmen descendants as citizens of the Nation. Parkwells ( talk) 18:07, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
This definitely need some clarification as required means "order" or "demand". If it's "in accordance with a treaty made with the US government, the Cherokee were ordered", the Cherokee were not "required" to free their slaves and give them citizenship in accordance to the treaty because they already willingly agreed to do that. Voluntarily agreed (like the 1866 treaty says...."The Cherokee Nation having, voluntarily, in February, eighteen hundred and sixty-three, by an act of the national council" reiterating the 1863 act before going into the statement on abolishment). The US very much insisted upon abolishing slavery and making the Freedmen citizens in regards to all the Five Civilized Tribes in the Fort Smith talks and the other talks held during treaty negotiations. Those were one of the terms that they wanted. And in regards to the Cherokee, those were terms that Ross and his group agreed with and wanted beforehand. Obviously with the passing of the Act before and their overall stance on the issue. They flat out rejected other things that US officials insisted on, like land for railroads and such, but not that. And in Gen. Sanborn's January 1866 report, cited on the page now, you can see how there were supporters of citizenship. Watie's group had objection with the Freedmen being in the Nation but not with the abolition of slaves. Ross' group won out in the end and they were the ones that the US negotiated with, not Watie's group. And out of the tribes, the Chickasaw were the only group that rejected the inclusion of Freedmen when the US government insisted. So how can it be that "in accordance with the treaty, the Cherokee were required" when 1. these terms were agreed upon as a treaty is pretty much an agreement between two parties, 2. it's something that the Cherokee in control wanted to do and 3: they did this without being ordered to do so? The edit before was pretty clear on the action, that they agreed to free slaves and give them citizenship. Seemed pretty straight and to the point. Stormshadows00 ( talk) 00:44, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
The second sentence of the current article begins "During the American Civil War, the Cherokee who supported the Union....."
However one of the sources listed (The Washington Post) states "The tribe fought for the Confederacy." I think this area could do with some further clarification. Anonymous watcher ( talk) 16:57, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
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Modify Lead to show duration and conclusion of case in first paragraph of Lead; readers should not have to read several paragraphs to learn the conclusion of the court cases. Parkwells ( talk) 14:05, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
There is no page simply named "Cherokee freedmen", only this article about the controversy over their enrollment. I suggest that either this page should be a general "Cherokee freedmen" article with a "Controversy" section or that the article be split into two articles. Bohemian Baltimore ( talk) 05:14, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
Theda Perdue (2000) recounts a story from "before the American Revolution" where a black slave named Molly is accepted as a Cherokee as a "replacement" for a woman who was beaten to death by her white husband. According to Cherokee historical practices, vengeance for the woman's death was required for her soul to find peace, and the husband was able to prevent his own execution by fleeing to the town of
Chota (where according to Cherokee law he was safe) and purchasing Molly as an exchange. When the wives family accepted Molly, later known as "Chickaw," she became a part of their clan (the
Deer Clan), and thus Cherokee.
[1]
Moving this here from the Native American identity in the United States article, which is undergoing cleanup. It's not really fitting in there, maybe here, if an example is needed. I didn't write this bit, just moving it. Best wishes, - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 00:45, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
References
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I created this page on the basis that there is little knowledge about this subject anywhere. All material pertaining to this issue weems to have a POV attached to it and therefore anybody who is looking for answers and not persuation should try and find it here. I do need help though filling out this page. Please help me do so, not only for me, but for the Cherokee people who need to make up their own minds and not be persuaded by political and tribal factions. Iwasmad 14:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I think the paragraph about him at the end could probably go into its own article. Smmurphy( Talk) 16:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone mind if this is moved to (or merged with the old version) of Cherokee Freedmen, which is currently a redirect? If not, at least a good deal of the history could go over there. Smmurphy( Talk) 05:57, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
The section called "The Issue" came from an old version of Cherokee Freedmen that was brought here when Cherokee Freedmen became a redirect (at least I think I remember that being the case). The section was a bit POV, and a bit redundant with the history section. The section has now been renamed "Issue summary," which seems to be less POV (and much better cited), but still a bit redundant with other sections. However, I think that the redundancy is ok, but it should be in the lead section, rather than the issue summary section. Thus, I think that the old section (if/where it was citable and NPOV), the rewrite, and the lead should all be merged into a new lead. Best, Smmurphy( Talk) 18:17, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
My first issue with the page is that the "Issue" section, which had information that has NEVER been stated in any media or information in the Freedmen situation. Chief Smith has never stated that he did the election for the Cherokee who are of African slave descent and it's been known to people who have been following the case that there hasn't been anything that even alluded to that before and after the March 3rd ruling and the federal case announcement (and I even put up his actual words from the announcement of the election). That right there is not in accordance to Wikipedia's NPOV policy, which I read before I made ANY changes.
As far as the "Diversity" pictures go, the Cherokee Nation recently made those ads in response to the allegations of racism with the Freedmen sitation. Putting those ads up with no indication of their origin and what the pictures were for is definetely not contributing to the article. And in the "history" log, the previous editor removed ALL the recent formation on the case, but stated that all he did was "replace photos removed and intro".
Another issue is the issue of the census information and other recent information about the Freedmen controversy that has been completely removed from the page. Now the original claim in the revision before mine is that "unsourced material" was removed, but all of my statements were cited with links and information backing up all my statements unlike the previous revison. I find it funny that my information was removed yet the information that was replaced had nothing backing up the statements made.
The recent changes I made was an update with recent information (once again sourced) with the action that has happened after the loss of citizenship (which was again removed by the previous edit and recent edit) and announcement of Bill HR 2824, additions to the previous statements that were missing from the previous edit, information about Cherokee slavery and lawsuits, removed the "issue" part because it was not factual and kind of redundant since the issue is in the header, and the merge of my previous edit to the header per the suggestion of smmurphy stated in this discussion (also putting parts of the original my original edit in other sections). The original article had three or four references. I had twenty four references.
Even though I followed all the guidelines, the changes were removed and the previous article was replaced. My concern with this article is that there is some misinformation, omitted infomation, factual information becaing removed, and the neutrality is definitely in question. If this keeps going on with each edit, there's no point in putting up accurate information.
Stormshadows00 18:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
First you put "This user is suspected to be a "sock puppet of JohnC1" in my information and you have made changes to my profile page with that statement. I don't know what a "sock puppet" and I don't know who or what "JohnC1" is. But I do know one thing. I've read each and every guideline on wikipedia and according to them, you are putting false information and ommited information that has everything to with the Cherokee Freedmen situation. I have not violated any rule or guideline here and a believe harassment by a fellow user is a guideline on here. My edits can be verified with the twenty four links that I put on this page. (And for your information, many people call the tribe "Cherokee Nation Of Oklahoma"). ALL of MY edits that I, stormshadows00, made are completely cited and I don't know where you get off coming at me with "unsourced material", "he's a sockpuppet" and "libel Chad Smith". You've deleted almost all of the original article plus deleted information that actually happened. And to me, you're not being neutral or even about putting up the actual information.
And now you want to say I'm "JohnC1" or whoever he or she is and call me a "sockpuppet" in my profile? That's clear sign that you're foul about this. Stormshadows00 21:04, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I reverted Jeffreys reversion, as I think a bit too much was removed (for instance, why did you take out the categories, you changed some facts oddly, you removed all reference to Mcloghlin's work, which had been there for some time, etc.). If something is a BLP issue, that, and only that, can be removed on sight, although even for that it would be nice to discuss it here. For the rest, please get a concensus before any major changes. Thanks, Smmurphy( Talk) 04:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Guys, if you want to lob insults, do so somewhere else. The discussion page is to discuss content. I put back the bit about Watts and Smith not knowing about the Freedmen, but I clarified the Smith part, and I added a bit from the Freedmen perspective, so it is balanced. Let me know what you think. Best, Smmurphy( Talk) 15:41, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I added a couple fact tags, but I stopped. Basically, when an article is contended, you can assume that most statements might be challenged, and its always better to add a citation than remove such a tag. More importantly, I removed a couple sentences with racist statements, as they don't really need to be repeated. Saying that the letter contained racist statements (or perhaps saying that so-and-so said that the letter contained racist statements) is enough, and I don't think it is generally necessary to repeat stuff like that. Smmurphy( Talk) 03:35, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Please do not remove the images again without valid discussion or place uncited statements which are libel into our project. Thanks. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 19:48, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Just a note, per WP:HEAD, generally only the first word in a section is capitalized. I'll get around to checking things out more in depth later, keep up the good work. Best, Smmurphy( Talk) 00:59, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Pleas bring specific issues you have with the lead to the talk page, rather than reverting. Most of the material is cited, and citations are being brought into a standard form. Constructive criticism is appreciated. Best, Smmurphy( Talk) 13:27, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
The article says that "descendants of the Cherokee Freedmen are Cherokee and were allowed to register to become enrolled citizens of the Cherokee Nation." The issue that I have with the current phrasing is that there is more than one way to understand "being" Cherokee. You can "be" a legal citizen of the Nation. You can "be" a Cherokee by blood. You can "be" a Cherokee by culture. The court ruling, which never uses the phrase "are Cherokee" or "is Cherokee" anywhere in it, says that descendants of Cherokee Freedmen are legally citizens of the Nation. It does not say a single word about which continent their great-great-great-great-grandparents were born on, what their race (a socially constructed concept anyway) is, or whether anyone is Cherokee by culture. It merely says that they are properly citizens of the Nation. I'd like to lose the ambiguous (and IMO, POV) language in favor of emphasizing what the court ruling actually says. WhatamIdoing 14:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Should the heading 'Cherokee freedmen controversy' be changed to 'Cherokee freedmen descendants' controversy perspective'? Objective facts are persistently deleted, and thus the article fails to address the depth and complexity of the issues. D.D.Bear ( talk) 05:02, 9 July 2008 (UTC) D.D.Bear 07/09/2008
You erased the membership language at Article III section 1 and the cite to the 1975 constitution. Readers should get NPOV, not revisionist history conclusions. Otherwise, it might be best to change the title of this perspective to what it is repeatedly undone to be: one half of the Cherokee Freedmen controversy.
If all the gaming ceased, and 'both' sides were presented factually, the world would learn a few things and we'd all get what we have to have out of this mismatched 'controversy.' I start from the good faith view that "all sides are true" and objective reality includes it all, without blaming it on any past or present Chief, or demonizing people who, they would say, were acting out of a positive motive that was incidentally hurtful. If the facts just give the freedmen side, and someone believes that is all there is to it, then there will always be more chapters and no repose. Because you know that self-determinism is the same thing to the Cherokees as freedom was to the Freedmen. I propose we take this to a higher level, and put both sides' story on the table, for the world to see. Or, alternatively that we stop misrepresenting it as 'the controversy.' Because, 'the controversy' is not just one conclusory, accusatory, oversimplified, viewpoint. 75.104.66.148 ( talk) 21:36, 9 July 2008 (UTC)D.D.Bear July 9, 2008
By 'revisionist history' I was referring to replacing the 1975 'facts as then known'(constitution words) with the 2006 ruling. Including the 2006 ruling language is proper when talking about 2006. But its revisionist history when that court ruling is stated retroactively and ex post facto, outside the context of the ambiguities in the Constitution that the 3 Chiefs were sworn to enforce. Here's why I think the article is biased under your reversion: Starting in 1976 the citizenship language was changed, for the first time since the postreconstruction national council resolution making the Freedmen citizens in the first place. It is perhaps the only early indicator of voter intent (albeit subject to two interpretations) we see during the period preceding the post-ruling Petition Drive. Wiki readers shouldn't be censored from reading that fascinating ambiguity. And the implications, both ways, should be explored. There should be a whole paragraph on the intent and meaning of Article III Section 1, with all the records and evidence that would tend to lean the 'real time' interpretation one way or another. Both persuasions. Not a vacuum. The concern, I'm sure, is that if the history articles were to show that the 1975 Constitution were passed with everyone knowing it was a vote to end Freedmen Descendant benefits... then it was the will of the majority and it would indicate that the Freedmen Descendants have taken the wrong strategy and might have to back up and take one of many other approaches to get a resolution. My sense is that interviews with the remaining living 1975 Constitutional Committee members would show they were not particularly attuned to the implications of the language. Were there news articles? In other words, was the 1975 election (1976?) determinative of any expression of public will by the Cherokee voters? It may be that the Constitutional passage itself was objected-to by Cherokee Freedmen Descendants. It seems POV to keep the discussion from 'going there' if in fact thisd article is about the controversy and not just about espousing the facts favorable to one side's position.
The positions on the controvery are stalled on the wrong rock. There are mutually-satisfying solutions available because it appears that the Cherokee Nation and the Freedmen Descendants want different things. So, relish the impasse. But when you are ready to move on to mutual success, then give it up on the censorship and lets put it all on the table. The best is yet to come for all. 75.104.66.148 ( talk) 19:38, 10 July 2008 (UTC)D.D. Bear, Thursday July 10, 2008
There are some changes being made that definitely need to be discussed because it's conflicting with previous material.
-Principal Chief Smith is one of the most vocal opponents of the freedmen reinstatement. It's been his stance since this started and the citied articles below has him quoted on his stance.
--The cited material didn't state that 2,800 Cherokee Members "currently enrolled in the tribe". It was talking about the Freedmen descendants in general.
-If the Cherokee had laws governing slave ownership and slave codes (which are stated in the article), the statement "the nature of slavery in Cherokee society" is an accurate statement.
-It's not "some Freedmen were put on the Freedmen" roll. There were 0 Freedmen placed on the "By Blood" roll because that roll in particular was for "blood Cherokee". All former slaves ("freedmen") were placed on the Freedmen roll and their children, whether they had a Cherokee parent or not, were on the roll as well. That was the whole purpose of the Freedmen Roll.....to list the Freedmen.
-"Loss Of Membership": The focus is not on the Intermarried Whites. The descendants of the Intermarried Whites, the spouse of the Cherokee already listed on the By Blood Roll, were not affected because their descendants are Cherokee based on the fact that part of their ancestry (the blood Cherokee) that is on the Cherokee By Blood Roll. I do think there should be some clarification on that and not lumping those two groups because the focus is on one and not the other.
-Freedmen were still around in 1907. It should be "some Freedmen and their descendants" because both did vote in the tribal elections.
-Dawes Rolls of 1902 is listed plain as day. There's no need to clarify.
-- Stormshadows00 ( talk) 16:25, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
About this: "Regardless of how it came to be, the result was that since the Freedmen Rolls had no record of Indian blood like the other Dawes Rolls, they lost their right to vote."
Stormshadows00, can you expand (in the text) on the Freedmen Rolls not having at least have a blood quantum designation for those who were African Cherokees? In other words, two things seem to have been going on with the Dawes Commission: Just one drop of African ancestry would result in a person being placed on the segregated list; and Cherokee blood quantum numbers, when and if known for these individuals, were omitted. For instance, did they just not figure Cherokee blood for biracials? Did they sometimes have blood quantum info from earlier rolls and not carry it over? Was it written some place else? Or was it a situation where the Dawes Commission didn't foresee that information ever being used because the Treaty of 1866 took care of it as a legal substitution for blood quantum? And were there any writings by the Dawes Commission about that?
(Because, possibly the segregated Dawes Rolls is the sourcepoint of today's split and one of the resolutions eventually might be to look back at federal complicity via segregation.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by D.D.Bear ( talk • contribs) 05:53, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm looking back on the 'stripped them' reversions by Stormshadows00, where that term is reinserted. Seems that one can revoke voting rights, deny voting rights, disenfranchise voting rights, disavow voting rights, and more, but 'stripping' someone of voting rights is poor grammar (personification) (and POV).
I have not given up hope that Wiki can be a place for objectively, both sides, in one spot. A definitive place to go to hear the controversy from both sides. Maybe break it up into 2 topics so each side can tell one side of the story and it can be a collaborative effort without a dominator. D.D.Bear ( talk) 20:06, 23 July 2008 (UTC)D.D. Bear July 23, 2008
I think we need to make a change to the line: "From the 1830s to 1860s, some Cherokee began to hold a more British-American view of slavery."
After a 20yr campaign the slave trade was ruled illegal in the British Empire in 1807, and all slaves freed by 1833.
Unless this was also the view of the Cherokee from 1830-1860, I think the line should be edited. -- 92.9.78.194 ( talk) 09:41, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
I would suggest we move this section to the main Cherokee page and leave a summary and reference to the main page. Considering how substantial this section is it makes sense to paint an accurate albeit complex (not to mention highly intriguing) picture of who the Cherokee were and what we know they did (despite it be challenging to our modern political POVs). Anotherpinkfloydinthewall ( talk) 21:58, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Hello everyone my name is Joe Howard and i am the author of a controversial Journal/Essay Called The Freedmens Hidden War.I am of Choctaw/Cherokee Freedmen Decent from the Howard and Roger Family and yes i do have ties to Norma Howard and Roger folks in Oklahoma and Texas.I would like to see if my Blog could be linked with Freedmen Articles and Norma Howard Articles as well my Blog address is www.wordwarrior.typepad.co Thanks Joe Howardəɵʉɔː —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.139.96.102 ( talk) 20:48, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Since the image is publicity by the Cherokee Nation, as if to prove its actions against the Freedmen are not discriminatory, it seems odd to have it in this article, which necessarily covers the exclusion of the Cherokee Freedmen descendants as citizens of the Nation. Parkwells ( talk) 18:07, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
This definitely need some clarification as required means "order" or "demand". If it's "in accordance with a treaty made with the US government, the Cherokee were ordered", the Cherokee were not "required" to free their slaves and give them citizenship in accordance to the treaty because they already willingly agreed to do that. Voluntarily agreed (like the 1866 treaty says...."The Cherokee Nation having, voluntarily, in February, eighteen hundred and sixty-three, by an act of the national council" reiterating the 1863 act before going into the statement on abolishment). The US very much insisted upon abolishing slavery and making the Freedmen citizens in regards to all the Five Civilized Tribes in the Fort Smith talks and the other talks held during treaty negotiations. Those were one of the terms that they wanted. And in regards to the Cherokee, those were terms that Ross and his group agreed with and wanted beforehand. Obviously with the passing of the Act before and their overall stance on the issue. They flat out rejected other things that US officials insisted on, like land for railroads and such, but not that. And in Gen. Sanborn's January 1866 report, cited on the page now, you can see how there were supporters of citizenship. Watie's group had objection with the Freedmen being in the Nation but not with the abolition of slaves. Ross' group won out in the end and they were the ones that the US negotiated with, not Watie's group. And out of the tribes, the Chickasaw were the only group that rejected the inclusion of Freedmen when the US government insisted. So how can it be that "in accordance with the treaty, the Cherokee were required" when 1. these terms were agreed upon as a treaty is pretty much an agreement between two parties, 2. it's something that the Cherokee in control wanted to do and 3: they did this without being ordered to do so? The edit before was pretty clear on the action, that they agreed to free slaves and give them citizenship. Seemed pretty straight and to the point. Stormshadows00 ( talk) 00:44, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
The second sentence of the current article begins "During the American Civil War, the Cherokee who supported the Union....."
However one of the sources listed (The Washington Post) states "The tribe fought for the Confederacy." I think this area could do with some further clarification. Anonymous watcher ( talk) 16:57, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
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Modify Lead to show duration and conclusion of case in first paragraph of Lead; readers should not have to read several paragraphs to learn the conclusion of the court cases. Parkwells ( talk) 14:05, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
There is no page simply named "Cherokee freedmen", only this article about the controversy over their enrollment. I suggest that either this page should be a general "Cherokee freedmen" article with a "Controversy" section or that the article be split into two articles. Bohemian Baltimore ( talk) 05:14, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
Theda Perdue (2000) recounts a story from "before the American Revolution" where a black slave named Molly is accepted as a Cherokee as a "replacement" for a woman who was beaten to death by her white husband. According to Cherokee historical practices, vengeance for the woman's death was required for her soul to find peace, and the husband was able to prevent his own execution by fleeing to the town of
Chota (where according to Cherokee law he was safe) and purchasing Molly as an exchange. When the wives family accepted Molly, later known as "Chickaw," she became a part of their clan (the
Deer Clan), and thus Cherokee.
[1]
Moving this here from the Native American identity in the United States article, which is undergoing cleanup. It's not really fitting in there, maybe here, if an example is needed. I didn't write this bit, just moving it. Best wishes, - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 00:45, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
References