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![]() | This is Archive 15 covering approximately 26 February 2008 - 20 March 2008 |
Consensus has developed on the
featured article review that the article should be reverted to one of these versions:
and rebuilt from there.
Please discuss and develop consensus here for which of the two versions is the best revert target. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:16, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
My preference would be for the earlier March 10 version because it is 10 kbs shorter and the writing cleaner. I think the POV has started to set in by the June 19 version. That version ends with the view of Che Guevara as "Jim Morrison with an assault rifle." This is the sort of statement I feel does not belong in the main article, as it represents a narrow global view and is culturally bound to a certain political view and even a particular age group. Mattisse 17:55, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Several questions were raised on the featured article review. No, reverting doesn't affect the talk page, and no, a sandbox version of the original featured version isn't needed (it's in the article history). Someone may want to save a sandbox version of the current version, so that anything you later want to retrieve from it can easily be found. I offer to do the initial steps in the revert, including an {{ inuse}} tag as needed until I'm finished, once the version is decided. Steps to restoring will include:
I believe those are the steps; please indicate anything I've missed so I can add it in. I also suggest allowing a few days to be certain consensus has formed before beginning this work. Discussion of the article should be on the article talk page; as the FAR moves along, others will be reading that page, and it isn't helpful to fill it up with unnecessary chatter and detail that can be dealt with on the article talk page. The FAR page should be used for determining whether the article meets or not featured standards. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:16, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me that Step two is fairly uncontroversial and any problems can be brought to the talk page. I am certainly willing to list hatnotes and check wikilinks. I know some of the external links to sources are dead. Polaris999 probably has the off line sources Zleitzen had (I'm guessing), and he probably is best for replacing dead reference links. Also, searches of standard sources such as BBC News will probably due for standard biographical stuff. Polaris999 and I are adamant that only sources meeting WP:V and WP:RS be used. We can discuss any problems on the talk page. Polaris999 has said he will do the template stuff. As far as citation style, I am used to WP:CITE but will use what ever is preferred for the article.
At step three, we will discuss issues of image and vet all citations on the talk page. At step four, of course, we will have to discuss. My view is that Guevara had been dead for over 50 years. Overly detailed descriptions, controversies, and legacy issues can take place in daughter articles. Much of the controversy now about Che has little to do with him as a person, in my opinion, and more with our collective state of mind today. My view is that if we cannot settle on a consensus regarding wording, then leave whatever it is out.
Hopefully, by concentrating on the task at hand we will quickly develop a good working group so that POV issues can be rationally discussed, allowing for differing view to arrive at compromises. Mattisse 19:54, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Allrighty, since consensus hasn't changed, I'll put the article in use tomorrow (after I get through my morning watchlist), and start the revert. In case anyone is wondering, I could have done all of it in advance in a sandbox and then just popped it in with one edit, but I don't think that's a good way to go on a controversial article and a revert to a very old version. The reason I want to put it in use and go methodically step by step as outlined above is so that the article history will clearly show each step, and you all can follow along and feel comfortable with the work done. For such an old revert, popping in something I developed in sandbox might not inspire future confidence about the integrity of the revert, and doing it "live" will provide future transparency. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 02:26, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Actually, it was Jmabel and I who introduced the WP:CITE system into the CG article. At that time, "Che Guevara's Involvement in the Cuban Revolution" already existed as a separate entity and I did not convert its footnotes. Later when Zleitzen started working on it and expressed frustration about the deplorable state of its footnotes, rather than converting them all manually as I had done in the main CG article, I ran User:Cyde/Ref converter on them, with very satisfactory results. That discussion, and the results of running the converter can be seen here. If others are in agreement, I would favor using User:Cyde/Ref converter on whatever footnotes may need to be translated into WP:CITE style as a "first pass"; we can then refine the output as necessary. Mattisse, re finding needed citations in books I own, I will certainly be glad to do so, and am pleased to see that Redthoreau also has volunteered. -- Polaris999 ( talk) 22:58, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
If there is a tidal wave to revert then I may not be able to stop it, and thus will accept it. However from reading the March 10th version I noticed some glaring issues that would have to be addressed, I believe in the new article, (Which I would want to be a part of crafting)
Problems with March 10th version that must be addressed ...
- “Revolutionary, politician, and Cuban guerrilla leader.” – no mention of him being an author ? He wrote more books during his lifetime than most authors. Also no mention of his contributions as a military tactician or social theorist ? His ideas involve philosophy just as much, if not more, than military theory.
- “Arbenz’s Social Revolution” ? Huh ? That is about the worst way to describe the systematic changes that Arbenz was attempting to implement.
- “Guevara Died at the hands of the Bolivian army” ... what kind of wording is that ? Were they cradling his head as he passed away from old age ? _I think you are confusing "died in the arms of" with "died at the hands of". The wording is correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.173.51.122 ( talk) 17:33, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
- Inclusion of the fact that Che “pawned jewelry” when money was tight ? How is this relevant and significant ? Especially when other minute details are considered “overbearing”.
- “Guevara met Fidel” – sounds like they attended the same soccer game and bumped into each other. Raul (Castro’s brother and current Cuban President introduced Che to Fidel)
- 4 lines on Che’s role in the Play “Evita” ? There should be 0.
- The entire criticism section is for lack of a better word “crap” and certain non credible parts would have to be removed to another article. Also what is with the shout out to Chemart.com ? Are we going to also link the article to Che-lives.com as well and offer discounts on T-shirts? This particular criticism section does not belong in the new article whatsoever and if people desire it, it should be a sister article. Also citing Álvaro Vargas Llosa makes the article laughable. He is a self-identified partisan hack.
With that said ... I believe that the March 10th version could be morphed into a good article with the work of several people. I myself would want to take part in the process as I consider my knowledge on the issue considerable, and I have the desire to put in the effort and will cede final decisions on my contributions to Polaris ... whose judgment and objectivity I trust. Redthoreau ( talk TR 21:10, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I will list issues here so we can all be on the same page before we start. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:02, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I'll add more to this list as it occurs to me. Keeping a consistent citation style from the beginning, per crit. 2c, will avoid having to fix them all at the end, which is extremely tedious work. Cleaning up the existing citations to a consistent style will take me quite a bit of time tomorrow. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:17, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Hey, folks, I'm sorry for the news at this stage of the game, but Mattisse is uncomfortable with my participation, so I feel it's best for the article if I bow out now. [1] This sort of undertaking works best if everyone is on the same page to the extent possible. Please rest assured I haven't joked about anyone on my talk page, and I don't know where Mattisse got that impression, but that is best dropped. I didn't "demand" anything, rather I explained how I planned to proceed to gain consensus before we all invested a lot of work. If the "tone this is taking on" is upsetting to a regular editor here, I must bow out for the good of the article. Good luck, I wanted to help, but this is best, and I hope the article can pull through and retain status, in Zleitzen's honor. He was one of the first Wiki editors to befriend me, and I hope his work can be preserved. Unwatching now, regards, SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 04:16, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I went ahead and did some very standard linkfarm cleanup per WP:EL, WP:SPAM, WP:NOT#LINK, and WP:LIST. My previous discussions on this got nowhere, so I thought it might be best to be bold. -- Ronz ( talk) 18:08, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I started looking it over, and noticed there were entries added before their publication dates. Given that the section obviously hasn't been reviewed for such promotional material, and we've no inclusion criteria to keep the list manageable, I've moved it to Talk:Che_Guevara/Further_Reading for easy review and discussion. -- Ronz ( talk) 19:50, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I just created the sub-article Legacy of Che Guevara and transferred the "Legacy" section from the main Che Guevara article into it. This removed 26,671 bytes from the Che Guevara article.
Number of references in CG main article before creation of "Legacy" sub-article = 174; number of references in CG main article after creation of "Legacy" sub-article = 118. -- Polaris999 ( talk) 20:17, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I've added what I think constitutes a balanced summary of this former section. Feel free to edit. I have not checked the references myself, they are drawn from the recently moved material. - Jmabel | Talk 01:25, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
If that is the case, then we need to focus on the article structure and therefore the lead. If we are clear about the lead, then the article will flow from it. Is it O.K. to start working on the article again? Mattisse 21:03, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Frequent comparisons are made between Guevara's theories and
those expounded by Mao Tse Tung. Certainly, common to both are the tactics of fighting the enemy and the use ot the countryside as a base
of operations.
I have a whole book on the theme that Castro succeeded precisely because his revolution moved to the cities (not because of Castro though but through Frank Pais and others).
Although Che's prestige among third world countries reached
new heights as he became one of the world's primary spokesmen for
revolutionary change, his support in Cuba steadily diminished.
But it is Cuba's revolution that succeeded.
Che's unorthodox theories for conducting revolutions, his critical stance towards the Soviet's "peaceful coexistence" efforts, and his preference for China's foreign relations policies inevitably placed him in jeopardy of falling into disfavor.
This paper has a lot on Che's theories but gives only one publication in the bibliography. Nor does it discuss his writing style and other authorship qualities. Reading Che's theories, so different from the pragmatism of Castro, shows clearly (to me) why Castro could succeed and Che could not. He was rooted in past revolutionary styles. It almost makes him sound like a James Dean-like figure, or maybe he is Jim Morrison with an assault rifle. It says that Castro did not make attempts to indoctrinate his troops, while Che was all about indoctrination.
I don't know what to put in the lead, other than he wrote a lot about revolutionary theory. I know he influenced Castro on guerrilla tactics but that was in person in Mexico or through Raul. Any ideas? Or maybe you should write that paragraph. Mattisse 23:10, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I replace first para in lead to a more concise version from a previous version.
Later I found this one had been approved by talk page (December 3, 2006):
Ernesto Guevara de la Serna ( June 14, 1928 – October 9, 1967), commonly known as Che Guevara or el Che, was an Argentine-born Marxist revolutionary, political figure, and leader of Cuban and internationalist guerrillas. As a young man studying medicine, Guevara traveled rough throughout Latin America, bringing him into direct contact with the impoverished conditions in which many people lived. His experiences and observations during these trips led him to the conclusion that the region's socioeconomic inequalities could only be remedied by revolution, prompting him to intensify his study of Marxism and travel to Guatemala to learn about the reforms being implemented there by President Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán.
It is a little more wordy, unnecessarily so from my point of view, but still very much O.K. Do others have opinions? Mattisse 21:59, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
There seem to be a variety in the article. I wanted to put an ISBN but I couldn't tell where to put it in the format. Mattisse 00:32, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I have put Che down as an Argentine rugby player. This is not a troll, since he was actually a keen player and edited a fanzine in his time. -- MacRusgail ( talk) 13:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
There are three different places in the text where Guevara is described as being given a "nickname". Is there some reason for this propensity for being given nicknames? Are all of them important enough to warrant mention? I can see how "pig" and "Che" contribute to his characterization, but is the rugby nickname also important? Is its mention to establish that as a young man he was aggressive? Mattisse —Preceding comment was added at 15:55, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
The Guatemala section has ballooned from the August, 2006 version. [2] Some of the additions may be valuable and those should remain. However, from my point of view, the section is filled with so much detail that it is difficult to follow. I also wonder about mentioning events in that section that have not happened yet such as the Granma. To a general reader who may not know the history, will this make much sense to them? (I know this statement was in the March 10, 2006 version, but still I question it's inclusion here.)
What do the rest of you think? Mattisse 16:20, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I notice that the article has just picked up a huge quantity of "Quotes", including some that have errors. I believe that it is WP policy that only a few quotes, if any, should be included in the article itself and that the others belong in Wikiquote (where a CG "quotes page" already exists and many of these can be found.) Does this policy remain in effect? -- Polaris999 ( talk) 16:36, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
A statement has recently been added to this section which I do not believe is adequately sourced, i.e.:
The source note given links to a dead URL. I do not remember ever having heard before that he was a member of the medical faculty of UNAM. Can anybody help with this? -- Polaris999 ( talk) 17:48, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
The "Capture and execution" sub-section contains the following sentence:
Since this sentence is a verbatim copy of a sentence in the Los Angeles Times article, Che Guevara's legacy looms larger than ever in Latin America(to which it is sourced), I would suggest that it either be enclosed in quotes or, preferably, removed. -- Polaris999 ( talk) 19:05, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Even though this sentence has a citation from Anderson on PBS I think it should go: "Che biographer Jon Lee Anderson has contended that through his five years of research that he was unable to find a single credible source pointing to a case where Che executed an innocent."
My reason is that I don't know what "an innocent" means in war. Anderson says: "Those persons executed by Guevara or on his orders were condemned for the usual crimes punishable by death at times of war or in its aftermath: desertion, treason or crimes such as rape, torture or murder." Are we to believe there were trials and such? Did not he execute people for the same reasons he was executed? We do have to reduce the POV of this article. I know there are references for the "Christ-like" pose and such, but is that not POV? Interjecting religion into an article about someone who was definately not religious and who is controversial. In fact, did not the lead at one time say he was controversial? The globalsecurity.org article says in the introduction that he was controversial.
Also, they makes it clear that their view is that Che was a failure in trying to implement his theory.
This is their introduction:
Ernesto "Che" Guevara ranks as one of the most significant
revolutionaries of the 20th century. After rising to power in Fidel Castro's revolutionary government, Che Guevara attained international status as a spokesman for radical social progress. His manual, Che Guevara on Guerrilla Warfare, introduced the foco theory of revolutions and remains one of the classic dissertations on guerrilla warfare. Che's attempt, however, to personally implement his foco theory in Bolivia during 1966-1967 failed completely
and resulted in his death.
Mattisse 20:43, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
1. Previous
Photographs at that time gave rise to legends such as those of San Ernesto de La Higuera. Local people came to refer to Guevara as a saint, "San Ernesto de La Higuera", whom they ask for favors. Others claim his ghost walks the area. [1]
2. Current
His body was lashed to the landing skids of a helicopter and flown to neighboring Vallegrande where a photograph was taken showing a Christ-like figure lying on a concrete slab in the laundry room of the Nuestra Señora de Malta hospital. [75][76]
3. My proposed version
His body was lashed to the landing skids of a helicopter and flown to neighboring Vallegrande where photographs were taken of a figure described by some as "Christ-like" lying on a concrete slab in the laundry room of the Nuestra Señora de Malta hospital. [75][76]
Just my opinion. What do others think? --
Polaris999 (
talk)
20:46, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
The section on Bolivia goes into all sorts of detail, but it never says Che failed, even though it goes on to say: "Guevara's plan for fomenting revolution in Bolivia appears to have been based upon a number of misconceptions:" and then lists misconceptions. It talks about training, about him helping wounded Brazilian soldiers, goes on about photographs etc. etc. but it never says what actually happened regarding the actual events of the planned revolution. It never explains that Guevara had a plan. In fact, it infers that Castro was behind it. "At Castro's behest...." This section does not make sense to me. It relates a list of semi-unrelated incidents regarding Che and then lists Che's misconceptions. Can this be clarified? Mattisse 22:16, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I now realize what everyone was saying about the hopeless of the POV problems and how it will drain anyone who tries in this situation. The whole article still does not mention even once that Che was controversial. I see Time magazine is back in the lead. I am offically giving up as I will not engage in a POV revert war. That Time magazine thinks anything should not be in the lead in a Wikipedia article about anything important. Sorry, this article will never be up to standards I can tolerate. I am bowing out. Other editors were right, I concede, when they said the job was impossible. Regards, Mattisse 08:17, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Which would you prefer? My browser still can barely handle it. Also, I am willing to spin Guevara's works into a list just to get rid of it. We could take care of the details of it later. Mattisse 02:36, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Redthoreau, please keep in mind that it was during the period after January 1 (actually beginning in December 2007) that the massive ballooning of the article began and the unacceptable POV edits increased significantly. The comments made on Wikipedia:Featured article review/Che Guevara are uniform in this agreement, however much those editors disagree in other respects. If you want to make changes in the article, please join the working relationship on the talk page first, before entering your own personal point of view. This article is supposed to be NPOV. Please keep this in mind. Regards, Mattisse 17:17, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
This section was added because both SandyGeorgia and Polaris999 voiced approval of this version as the best version. SandyGeorgia later changed her mind and opted for an earlier version. Polaris999, who has been currently working on the article and interacting on the talk page, continued to express preference for this version.
If there is disagreement, let us discuss it here, rather than using a series of reverts without any discussion or consensus on the talk page. Anyone editing the article is requested to discuss the editing goals and processes on this page first. If an edit is made that others disagree with, then it can be removed.
And please, no POV edits. Any editing is to have the goal of making the article more neutral, as the "hagiographic tone" of the article is it's prime problem, now that the size has been reduced somewhat. Polaris999 has stated in the past that he was against the Legacy section. We all must decide how to handle this. Mattisse 17:32, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflct x 2}
I will stop for good. I do not see the article going in a direction with which I can agree so this is a good time for me to bow out.
The list has been spun off. If you want to do more to it, do so. The two of you can carry on. The list is List of Che Guevara's works (English translations) and from my view it is part of the article and needs to be maintained by article editors. If this is not agreeable, the list can be returned to the article. Regards, Mattisse 19:37, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
The user Agcala attempted to dramatically vandalize the article yesterday, thus editors should be on the lookout for his future mischief. Redthoreau ( talk TR 00:16, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I have restored the post mortem photo of Che because of its significance and believe it to be more momentous than the externally hosted pre-death photo. Also I have restored the picture of Che on a mule as a Guerrilla over the less significant photo of him on a burro as a child. I also restored the walking in Moscow picture in place of the "meeting party" photo, which was set for deletion and I would argue of much poorer quality and relevance, than the Moscow photo in reference to his trips around the world. Since it was agreed that we would limit the number of photos, I find it crucial that we use the most relevant, noteworthy, and best quality ones available. Moreover, I have ensured that all of my hosted photos possess the proper Cuba tag and citation. Your thoughts are welcome. Redthoreau ( talk TR 00:11, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't see much value in having a reference section that just provides full book titles without page numbers. Right now there are the references in the article which cite a specific pg or web article, and the blanket references with just book names. I would contend that the reference section without specific page numbers is unnecessary and of little value. Others thoughts? Redthoreau ( talk TR 22:59, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I moved this from the article because it was out of sequence. Also, it seems trivial to have a whole paragraph about his personal life in the middle of the Cuban events. It makes his personal live seem more important than his political. Anyway, I put the paragraph here for someone to find a place for it.
Hilda Gadea had arrived from Guatemala and she and Guevara resumed their relationship. In the summer of 1955, she informed him that she was pregnant, and he immediately suggested that they marry. The wedding took place on August 18, 1955, and their daughter, whom they named Hilda Beatríz, was born on February 15, 1956. [2]
Mattisse ( Talk) 01:17, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Very few examples. Just a lot of glowing prose. Specifically, what did he do besides ride around on a motorcycle, have affairs with women, fail at all his attempts at revolution? Surely there must be something more concrete. This whole article just rides on his icon status. Mattisse ( Talk) 01:20, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
(outdent)
Please review the comment below from the FAR page on Che Guevara, as that editor is better at expressing what I want to say. Mattisse ( Talk) 02:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Umm, remember we are talking about the article here, not personal opinions. Why don't you add to the article (with good reference sources) to make your point? General sentences, unreferenced are not helpful. It is not spelled out what he did in the Cuban Revolution in the article. Read the comments of the editor below this one.
*Drive-by comment about the Cuba section The "Cuba" section could use some reorganization so that the paragraphs are chronological. More context is needed about his roles within the Cuban government (and why are the dates of his appointments in footnotes? Wouldn't they be better and more helpful to the reader to just integrate them into the main text?) A copy-edit is needed: "Guevara later served as Minister of Industries, in which post he helped", "...would drive economic growth, all that was needed was will". In my opinion, the section should discuss more about his role in the "great debate" of moral vs. material incentives. He was a vocal advocate of "moral incentives", and his philosophical musings during this time were certainly influential in Cuba, if not altogether successful in getting Cuba to adopt his particular economic views. "Guevara played a key role in bringing to Cuba the Soviet nuclear-armed ballistic missiles..." Really? What was this key role? Explain! Budding Journalist 05:09, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
This is what I have gathered from the Jon Anderson book so far. Che originally educated Raul and Castro about guerrillas tactics. Che did fight ruthlessly in the Cuban Revolution, all though he missed much of the crucial action. He was the one on charge of executing people, until Castro made him stop because of the world-wide bad press.
Che inspire the revolution by his speeches and writing and to fight ruthlessly, executing a lot of people. He certainly was not responsible for it's success, even if he did play and important role early on. Che was pushing the peasant revolution while Castro and others realized that the urban guerrilla revolution was the way to go. Che was rigid ideologically, while Castro was pragmatic and this was an increasing source of friction betwwen them.
The Jon Anderson book says finally Che was given grand titles to get him out of the main stream - as the higher the title sounded, the less important the person was in the revolutionary structure. Che was stirring up unnecessary fuss with the U.S. and the Soviet Union. Castro also ordered him eventually to stop his summary executions as they were garnering bad press around the world. Anderson describes Che's increasing ideological rigidity and Castros's "realpolitik" meant that Castro needed eventually to ease Che out of the revolutionary structure and away from Cuba. The book also says that Castro sent Che traveling around the world, visiting world leaders, at least in part, to get him out of the way and eventually to get him out of Cuba. Che's subsequent attempts at revolution (Bolivia, the Congo) failed because his revolutionary ideas were flawed: Foco theory, Foco. None of the contrasting politic views and strategies between Castro and Ghe are described in the article. Nor is the complexity of their relationship described.
I would very much appreciate any references pointing to Che's revolutionary successes. The Cuban Revolution was not brought about by Che. In fact, he appears (according to Jon Anderson, Julia El Swieig, Anthony DePalma) to misunderstand the complexity of the Cuban situation by ignoring the importance of guerilla tactics in favor of a peasant revold.
Any additions or improvements you can add to the article would be welcome. However, personal opinions cannot be put in the article and do not supply reliable sources. Mattisse ( Talk) 13:01, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Matisse I fail to see the contradiction at present. Yes Lumumba was killed in 1961, but Laurent-Désiré Kabila was leading forces still loyal to his memory. Thus when Guevara arrives in the Congo in 1965, there are still Lumumba supporters present who are aligned with Kabila. Redthoreau ( talk TR 01:32, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
As early as 1959, Guevara had helped organize revolutionary expeditions overseas, all of which were unsuccessful. The first attempt was made in Panama; another in the Dominican Republic (led by Henry Fuerte, [3] also known as "El Argelino", and Enrique Jiménez Moya) [4] took place on 14 June of that same year. Some sources state that Guevara persuaded Castro to back him in personally leading Cuba's first military action in Sub-Saharan Africa, while other sources maintain that Castro convinced Guevara to undertake the mission, arguing that conditions in the various Latin American countries that had been under consideration for the possible establishment of guerrilla focos theory were not yet optimal. [5] Castro himself has said the latter is true. [6] Guevara previously in August of 1964 laid out why he believed the Congo was a major battleground against imperialism, stating that the North American monopolies were installing themselves in a battle to "own the Congo", in order to control the copper, radioactive minerals, and strategic raw materials. [7]
This needs to go in a section devoted to Chevara's revolutionary theory.
Mattisse ( Talk) 03:06, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
I have temporarily restored the external links of images/archival footage until other editors can weigh in on their inclusion/exclusion. I myself believe they should be included in the main article, but am open to suggestions and reasoning. Redthoreau ( talk TR 05:25, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Name changes can be made easily at any time.Likewise, the External links issue can be addressed latter. If the FA people stop feeling the article is hopeless, they will start making specific suggesting. Remember the task as set before us now. (Read Wikipedia:Featured article criteria). User:Marskell is an extremely well respected editor. This is what he suggests and therefore what we must do:
Suggested FA criteria concerns are POV (1d), focus (4), referencing (1c), and formatting (2). Marskell ( talk) 19:30, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I notice some POV has crept in overnight. Please go in the direction of removing POV. Also, do nothing that will make the article longer. Remove rather than add. Also, much of the article does not make sense. I am tempted to retrieve an earlier version for some sections. Mattisse ( Talk) 14:23, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Last night and this morning I spent a great deal of time rewording the lead as has been suggested to me before from Polaris. I painstakingly went through word by word and believe the finished product is a better place to continue editing from what was there before. I respect your opinion Matisse on the new version and am open to suggestions/criticisms. Redthoreau ( talk TR 14:27, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Redthoreau, if you change the lead one more time within a 24 hour period, you will be guilty of a 3RR rule. Do not revert my edits without discussion. You have overlinked the lead and added POV. This is exactly what the article does not need. Please work toward following the guidelines.
Further, the lead is the least important right now as it MUST reflect proportionally the sections of the article. Since the article is a mess currently, it is difficult to write a proper lead.
Please do not add further POV to the article, as the POV is the article's main problem.
Also, I notice that you have not worked on the much more important issue of the Congo section despite my edit summaries & tags. I take this to mean that you do not know how to fix it. Therefore, I will try to work on it.
Please work on the more import issues in the article than focusing on the lead. Mattisse ( Talk) 14:39, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
It is all yours. You are a grownup. You can figure these things out for yourself instead of demanding that others list mistakes and there rationale. Mattisse ( Talk) 15:35, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Matisse, I take it you are back editing again after a self imposed exile of 1 hour ? I only ask because it is confusing to watch you declare you are leaving only to have you resurface an hour later and ask for an explanation on content ... however I am happy to comply and deal with your concern specifically "as a grownup". I see that you have labeled him being internationally respected as a "dubious" statement. Would you like to explain your rationale for finding this statement "dubious". I find it to be common knowledge and if you desire I can ring off a plethora of articles, tributes, international monuments, books, etc that would make this statement accurate in scope. It is also just as accurate as declaring him “controversial” which you did. Redthoreau ( talk TR 18:05, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
According to the article TOC the lead should contain
How do you want to proceed? Mattisse ( Talk) 22:17, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
(copied from my talk page in reply to some of User:Redthoreau's postings there)
Name changes can be made easily at any time.Likewise, the External links issue can be addressed latter. If the FA people stop feeling the article is hopeless, they will start making specific suggesting. Remember the task as set before us now. (Read Wikipedia:Featured article criteria). User:Marskell is an extremely well respected editor. This is what he suggests and therefore what we must do:
Suggested FA criteria concerns are POV (1d), focus (4), referencing (1c), and formatting (2). Marskell ( talk) 19:30, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I notice some POV has crept in overnight. Please go in the direction of removing POV. Also, do nothing that will make the article longer. Remove rather than add. Also, much of the article does not make sense. I am tempted to retrieve an earlier version for some sections.
Mattisse (
Talk)
13:33, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
(outdent)
I have brought them up repeatedly.
The lead must mirror the article closely. Nothing can be mentioned in the lead that is not gone into detail in the article. The proportion of words about a subject in the lead must reflect the proportion given than subject in the article. OVERLINKING IS DISCOURAGED.
You have been told many times to read:
Plus, please read what I wrote in my reply to you in the above section on this talk page.
Additionallly:
I copied the reviewer's comments in the Reply above. Please read them. I am copying this to the article talk page. Mattisse ( Talk) 22:33, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Please do not contact me on my talk page. I am done with this article and your tactics. Mattisse ( Talk) 23:01, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Our resident "disgruntled" editor who storms off the article for good twice a day, has now taken it upon himself to go back and try and remove his additions to the article, which affects those who have edited his contributions and tied them into the overall article in reference to their own additions. It is not surprising, when looking at his past behavior, but it will surely take time to repair all of the damage he is reeking upon the article in his current temper tantrum. Any help by responsible editors will be appreciated once he is finished. Redthoreau ( talk TR 02:34, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | → | Archive 20 |
![]() | This is Archive 15 covering approximately 26 February 2008 - 20 March 2008 |
Consensus has developed on the
featured article review that the article should be reverted to one of these versions:
and rebuilt from there.
Please discuss and develop consensus here for which of the two versions is the best revert target. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:16, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
My preference would be for the earlier March 10 version because it is 10 kbs shorter and the writing cleaner. I think the POV has started to set in by the June 19 version. That version ends with the view of Che Guevara as "Jim Morrison with an assault rifle." This is the sort of statement I feel does not belong in the main article, as it represents a narrow global view and is culturally bound to a certain political view and even a particular age group. Mattisse 17:55, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Several questions were raised on the featured article review. No, reverting doesn't affect the talk page, and no, a sandbox version of the original featured version isn't needed (it's in the article history). Someone may want to save a sandbox version of the current version, so that anything you later want to retrieve from it can easily be found. I offer to do the initial steps in the revert, including an {{ inuse}} tag as needed until I'm finished, once the version is decided. Steps to restoring will include:
I believe those are the steps; please indicate anything I've missed so I can add it in. I also suggest allowing a few days to be certain consensus has formed before beginning this work. Discussion of the article should be on the article talk page; as the FAR moves along, others will be reading that page, and it isn't helpful to fill it up with unnecessary chatter and detail that can be dealt with on the article talk page. The FAR page should be used for determining whether the article meets or not featured standards. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:16, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me that Step two is fairly uncontroversial and any problems can be brought to the talk page. I am certainly willing to list hatnotes and check wikilinks. I know some of the external links to sources are dead. Polaris999 probably has the off line sources Zleitzen had (I'm guessing), and he probably is best for replacing dead reference links. Also, searches of standard sources such as BBC News will probably due for standard biographical stuff. Polaris999 and I are adamant that only sources meeting WP:V and WP:RS be used. We can discuss any problems on the talk page. Polaris999 has said he will do the template stuff. As far as citation style, I am used to WP:CITE but will use what ever is preferred for the article.
At step three, we will discuss issues of image and vet all citations on the talk page. At step four, of course, we will have to discuss. My view is that Guevara had been dead for over 50 years. Overly detailed descriptions, controversies, and legacy issues can take place in daughter articles. Much of the controversy now about Che has little to do with him as a person, in my opinion, and more with our collective state of mind today. My view is that if we cannot settle on a consensus regarding wording, then leave whatever it is out.
Hopefully, by concentrating on the task at hand we will quickly develop a good working group so that POV issues can be rationally discussed, allowing for differing view to arrive at compromises. Mattisse 19:54, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Allrighty, since consensus hasn't changed, I'll put the article in use tomorrow (after I get through my morning watchlist), and start the revert. In case anyone is wondering, I could have done all of it in advance in a sandbox and then just popped it in with one edit, but I don't think that's a good way to go on a controversial article and a revert to a very old version. The reason I want to put it in use and go methodically step by step as outlined above is so that the article history will clearly show each step, and you all can follow along and feel comfortable with the work done. For such an old revert, popping in something I developed in sandbox might not inspire future confidence about the integrity of the revert, and doing it "live" will provide future transparency. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 02:26, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Actually, it was Jmabel and I who introduced the WP:CITE system into the CG article. At that time, "Che Guevara's Involvement in the Cuban Revolution" already existed as a separate entity and I did not convert its footnotes. Later when Zleitzen started working on it and expressed frustration about the deplorable state of its footnotes, rather than converting them all manually as I had done in the main CG article, I ran User:Cyde/Ref converter on them, with very satisfactory results. That discussion, and the results of running the converter can be seen here. If others are in agreement, I would favor using User:Cyde/Ref converter on whatever footnotes may need to be translated into WP:CITE style as a "first pass"; we can then refine the output as necessary. Mattisse, re finding needed citations in books I own, I will certainly be glad to do so, and am pleased to see that Redthoreau also has volunteered. -- Polaris999 ( talk) 22:58, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
If there is a tidal wave to revert then I may not be able to stop it, and thus will accept it. However from reading the March 10th version I noticed some glaring issues that would have to be addressed, I believe in the new article, (Which I would want to be a part of crafting)
Problems with March 10th version that must be addressed ...
- “Revolutionary, politician, and Cuban guerrilla leader.” – no mention of him being an author ? He wrote more books during his lifetime than most authors. Also no mention of his contributions as a military tactician or social theorist ? His ideas involve philosophy just as much, if not more, than military theory.
- “Arbenz’s Social Revolution” ? Huh ? That is about the worst way to describe the systematic changes that Arbenz was attempting to implement.
- “Guevara Died at the hands of the Bolivian army” ... what kind of wording is that ? Were they cradling his head as he passed away from old age ? _I think you are confusing "died in the arms of" with "died at the hands of". The wording is correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.173.51.122 ( talk) 17:33, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
- Inclusion of the fact that Che “pawned jewelry” when money was tight ? How is this relevant and significant ? Especially when other minute details are considered “overbearing”.
- “Guevara met Fidel” – sounds like they attended the same soccer game and bumped into each other. Raul (Castro’s brother and current Cuban President introduced Che to Fidel)
- 4 lines on Che’s role in the Play “Evita” ? There should be 0.
- The entire criticism section is for lack of a better word “crap” and certain non credible parts would have to be removed to another article. Also what is with the shout out to Chemart.com ? Are we going to also link the article to Che-lives.com as well and offer discounts on T-shirts? This particular criticism section does not belong in the new article whatsoever and if people desire it, it should be a sister article. Also citing Álvaro Vargas Llosa makes the article laughable. He is a self-identified partisan hack.
With that said ... I believe that the March 10th version could be morphed into a good article with the work of several people. I myself would want to take part in the process as I consider my knowledge on the issue considerable, and I have the desire to put in the effort and will cede final decisions on my contributions to Polaris ... whose judgment and objectivity I trust. Redthoreau ( talk TR 21:10, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I will list issues here so we can all be on the same page before we start. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:02, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I'll add more to this list as it occurs to me. Keeping a consistent citation style from the beginning, per crit. 2c, will avoid having to fix them all at the end, which is extremely tedious work. Cleaning up the existing citations to a consistent style will take me quite a bit of time tomorrow. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:17, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Hey, folks, I'm sorry for the news at this stage of the game, but Mattisse is uncomfortable with my participation, so I feel it's best for the article if I bow out now. [1] This sort of undertaking works best if everyone is on the same page to the extent possible. Please rest assured I haven't joked about anyone on my talk page, and I don't know where Mattisse got that impression, but that is best dropped. I didn't "demand" anything, rather I explained how I planned to proceed to gain consensus before we all invested a lot of work. If the "tone this is taking on" is upsetting to a regular editor here, I must bow out for the good of the article. Good luck, I wanted to help, but this is best, and I hope the article can pull through and retain status, in Zleitzen's honor. He was one of the first Wiki editors to befriend me, and I hope his work can be preserved. Unwatching now, regards, SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 04:16, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I went ahead and did some very standard linkfarm cleanup per WP:EL, WP:SPAM, WP:NOT#LINK, and WP:LIST. My previous discussions on this got nowhere, so I thought it might be best to be bold. -- Ronz ( talk) 18:08, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I started looking it over, and noticed there were entries added before their publication dates. Given that the section obviously hasn't been reviewed for such promotional material, and we've no inclusion criteria to keep the list manageable, I've moved it to Talk:Che_Guevara/Further_Reading for easy review and discussion. -- Ronz ( talk) 19:50, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I just created the sub-article Legacy of Che Guevara and transferred the "Legacy" section from the main Che Guevara article into it. This removed 26,671 bytes from the Che Guevara article.
Number of references in CG main article before creation of "Legacy" sub-article = 174; number of references in CG main article after creation of "Legacy" sub-article = 118. -- Polaris999 ( talk) 20:17, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I've added what I think constitutes a balanced summary of this former section. Feel free to edit. I have not checked the references myself, they are drawn from the recently moved material. - Jmabel | Talk 01:25, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
If that is the case, then we need to focus on the article structure and therefore the lead. If we are clear about the lead, then the article will flow from it. Is it O.K. to start working on the article again? Mattisse 21:03, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Frequent comparisons are made between Guevara's theories and
those expounded by Mao Tse Tung. Certainly, common to both are the tactics of fighting the enemy and the use ot the countryside as a base
of operations.
I have a whole book on the theme that Castro succeeded precisely because his revolution moved to the cities (not because of Castro though but through Frank Pais and others).
Although Che's prestige among third world countries reached
new heights as he became one of the world's primary spokesmen for
revolutionary change, his support in Cuba steadily diminished.
But it is Cuba's revolution that succeeded.
Che's unorthodox theories for conducting revolutions, his critical stance towards the Soviet's "peaceful coexistence" efforts, and his preference for China's foreign relations policies inevitably placed him in jeopardy of falling into disfavor.
This paper has a lot on Che's theories but gives only one publication in the bibliography. Nor does it discuss his writing style and other authorship qualities. Reading Che's theories, so different from the pragmatism of Castro, shows clearly (to me) why Castro could succeed and Che could not. He was rooted in past revolutionary styles. It almost makes him sound like a James Dean-like figure, or maybe he is Jim Morrison with an assault rifle. It says that Castro did not make attempts to indoctrinate his troops, while Che was all about indoctrination.
I don't know what to put in the lead, other than he wrote a lot about revolutionary theory. I know he influenced Castro on guerrilla tactics but that was in person in Mexico or through Raul. Any ideas? Or maybe you should write that paragraph. Mattisse 23:10, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I replace first para in lead to a more concise version from a previous version.
Later I found this one had been approved by talk page (December 3, 2006):
Ernesto Guevara de la Serna ( June 14, 1928 – October 9, 1967), commonly known as Che Guevara or el Che, was an Argentine-born Marxist revolutionary, political figure, and leader of Cuban and internationalist guerrillas. As a young man studying medicine, Guevara traveled rough throughout Latin America, bringing him into direct contact with the impoverished conditions in which many people lived. His experiences and observations during these trips led him to the conclusion that the region's socioeconomic inequalities could only be remedied by revolution, prompting him to intensify his study of Marxism and travel to Guatemala to learn about the reforms being implemented there by President Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán.
It is a little more wordy, unnecessarily so from my point of view, but still very much O.K. Do others have opinions? Mattisse 21:59, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
There seem to be a variety in the article. I wanted to put an ISBN but I couldn't tell where to put it in the format. Mattisse 00:32, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I have put Che down as an Argentine rugby player. This is not a troll, since he was actually a keen player and edited a fanzine in his time. -- MacRusgail ( talk) 13:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
There are three different places in the text where Guevara is described as being given a "nickname". Is there some reason for this propensity for being given nicknames? Are all of them important enough to warrant mention? I can see how "pig" and "Che" contribute to his characterization, but is the rugby nickname also important? Is its mention to establish that as a young man he was aggressive? Mattisse —Preceding comment was added at 15:55, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
The Guatemala section has ballooned from the August, 2006 version. [2] Some of the additions may be valuable and those should remain. However, from my point of view, the section is filled with so much detail that it is difficult to follow. I also wonder about mentioning events in that section that have not happened yet such as the Granma. To a general reader who may not know the history, will this make much sense to them? (I know this statement was in the March 10, 2006 version, but still I question it's inclusion here.)
What do the rest of you think? Mattisse 16:20, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I notice that the article has just picked up a huge quantity of "Quotes", including some that have errors. I believe that it is WP policy that only a few quotes, if any, should be included in the article itself and that the others belong in Wikiquote (where a CG "quotes page" already exists and many of these can be found.) Does this policy remain in effect? -- Polaris999 ( talk) 16:36, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
A statement has recently been added to this section which I do not believe is adequately sourced, i.e.:
The source note given links to a dead URL. I do not remember ever having heard before that he was a member of the medical faculty of UNAM. Can anybody help with this? -- Polaris999 ( talk) 17:48, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
The "Capture and execution" sub-section contains the following sentence:
Since this sentence is a verbatim copy of a sentence in the Los Angeles Times article, Che Guevara's legacy looms larger than ever in Latin America(to which it is sourced), I would suggest that it either be enclosed in quotes or, preferably, removed. -- Polaris999 ( talk) 19:05, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Even though this sentence has a citation from Anderson on PBS I think it should go: "Che biographer Jon Lee Anderson has contended that through his five years of research that he was unable to find a single credible source pointing to a case where Che executed an innocent."
My reason is that I don't know what "an innocent" means in war. Anderson says: "Those persons executed by Guevara or on his orders were condemned for the usual crimes punishable by death at times of war or in its aftermath: desertion, treason or crimes such as rape, torture or murder." Are we to believe there were trials and such? Did not he execute people for the same reasons he was executed? We do have to reduce the POV of this article. I know there are references for the "Christ-like" pose and such, but is that not POV? Interjecting religion into an article about someone who was definately not religious and who is controversial. In fact, did not the lead at one time say he was controversial? The globalsecurity.org article says in the introduction that he was controversial.
Also, they makes it clear that their view is that Che was a failure in trying to implement his theory.
This is their introduction:
Ernesto "Che" Guevara ranks as one of the most significant
revolutionaries of the 20th century. After rising to power in Fidel Castro's revolutionary government, Che Guevara attained international status as a spokesman for radical social progress. His manual, Che Guevara on Guerrilla Warfare, introduced the foco theory of revolutions and remains one of the classic dissertations on guerrilla warfare. Che's attempt, however, to personally implement his foco theory in Bolivia during 1966-1967 failed completely
and resulted in his death.
Mattisse 20:43, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
1. Previous
Photographs at that time gave rise to legends such as those of San Ernesto de La Higuera. Local people came to refer to Guevara as a saint, "San Ernesto de La Higuera", whom they ask for favors. Others claim his ghost walks the area. [1]
2. Current
His body was lashed to the landing skids of a helicopter and flown to neighboring Vallegrande where a photograph was taken showing a Christ-like figure lying on a concrete slab in the laundry room of the Nuestra Señora de Malta hospital. [75][76]
3. My proposed version
His body was lashed to the landing skids of a helicopter and flown to neighboring Vallegrande where photographs were taken of a figure described by some as "Christ-like" lying on a concrete slab in the laundry room of the Nuestra Señora de Malta hospital. [75][76]
Just my opinion. What do others think? --
Polaris999 (
talk)
20:46, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
The section on Bolivia goes into all sorts of detail, but it never says Che failed, even though it goes on to say: "Guevara's plan for fomenting revolution in Bolivia appears to have been based upon a number of misconceptions:" and then lists misconceptions. It talks about training, about him helping wounded Brazilian soldiers, goes on about photographs etc. etc. but it never says what actually happened regarding the actual events of the planned revolution. It never explains that Guevara had a plan. In fact, it infers that Castro was behind it. "At Castro's behest...." This section does not make sense to me. It relates a list of semi-unrelated incidents regarding Che and then lists Che's misconceptions. Can this be clarified? Mattisse 22:16, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I now realize what everyone was saying about the hopeless of the POV problems and how it will drain anyone who tries in this situation. The whole article still does not mention even once that Che was controversial. I see Time magazine is back in the lead. I am offically giving up as I will not engage in a POV revert war. That Time magazine thinks anything should not be in the lead in a Wikipedia article about anything important. Sorry, this article will never be up to standards I can tolerate. I am bowing out. Other editors were right, I concede, when they said the job was impossible. Regards, Mattisse 08:17, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Which would you prefer? My browser still can barely handle it. Also, I am willing to spin Guevara's works into a list just to get rid of it. We could take care of the details of it later. Mattisse 02:36, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Redthoreau, please keep in mind that it was during the period after January 1 (actually beginning in December 2007) that the massive ballooning of the article began and the unacceptable POV edits increased significantly. The comments made on Wikipedia:Featured article review/Che Guevara are uniform in this agreement, however much those editors disagree in other respects. If you want to make changes in the article, please join the working relationship on the talk page first, before entering your own personal point of view. This article is supposed to be NPOV. Please keep this in mind. Regards, Mattisse 17:17, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
This section was added because both SandyGeorgia and Polaris999 voiced approval of this version as the best version. SandyGeorgia later changed her mind and opted for an earlier version. Polaris999, who has been currently working on the article and interacting on the talk page, continued to express preference for this version.
If there is disagreement, let us discuss it here, rather than using a series of reverts without any discussion or consensus on the talk page. Anyone editing the article is requested to discuss the editing goals and processes on this page first. If an edit is made that others disagree with, then it can be removed.
And please, no POV edits. Any editing is to have the goal of making the article more neutral, as the "hagiographic tone" of the article is it's prime problem, now that the size has been reduced somewhat. Polaris999 has stated in the past that he was against the Legacy section. We all must decide how to handle this. Mattisse 17:32, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflct x 2}
I will stop for good. I do not see the article going in a direction with which I can agree so this is a good time for me to bow out.
The list has been spun off. If you want to do more to it, do so. The two of you can carry on. The list is List of Che Guevara's works (English translations) and from my view it is part of the article and needs to be maintained by article editors. If this is not agreeable, the list can be returned to the article. Regards, Mattisse 19:37, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
The user Agcala attempted to dramatically vandalize the article yesterday, thus editors should be on the lookout for his future mischief. Redthoreau ( talk TR 00:16, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I have restored the post mortem photo of Che because of its significance and believe it to be more momentous than the externally hosted pre-death photo. Also I have restored the picture of Che on a mule as a Guerrilla over the less significant photo of him on a burro as a child. I also restored the walking in Moscow picture in place of the "meeting party" photo, which was set for deletion and I would argue of much poorer quality and relevance, than the Moscow photo in reference to his trips around the world. Since it was agreed that we would limit the number of photos, I find it crucial that we use the most relevant, noteworthy, and best quality ones available. Moreover, I have ensured that all of my hosted photos possess the proper Cuba tag and citation. Your thoughts are welcome. Redthoreau ( talk TR 00:11, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't see much value in having a reference section that just provides full book titles without page numbers. Right now there are the references in the article which cite a specific pg or web article, and the blanket references with just book names. I would contend that the reference section without specific page numbers is unnecessary and of little value. Others thoughts? Redthoreau ( talk TR 22:59, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I moved this from the article because it was out of sequence. Also, it seems trivial to have a whole paragraph about his personal life in the middle of the Cuban events. It makes his personal live seem more important than his political. Anyway, I put the paragraph here for someone to find a place for it.
Hilda Gadea had arrived from Guatemala and she and Guevara resumed their relationship. In the summer of 1955, she informed him that she was pregnant, and he immediately suggested that they marry. The wedding took place on August 18, 1955, and their daughter, whom they named Hilda Beatríz, was born on February 15, 1956. [2]
Mattisse ( Talk) 01:17, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Very few examples. Just a lot of glowing prose. Specifically, what did he do besides ride around on a motorcycle, have affairs with women, fail at all his attempts at revolution? Surely there must be something more concrete. This whole article just rides on his icon status. Mattisse ( Talk) 01:20, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
(outdent)
Please review the comment below from the FAR page on Che Guevara, as that editor is better at expressing what I want to say. Mattisse ( Talk) 02:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Umm, remember we are talking about the article here, not personal opinions. Why don't you add to the article (with good reference sources) to make your point? General sentences, unreferenced are not helpful. It is not spelled out what he did in the Cuban Revolution in the article. Read the comments of the editor below this one.
*Drive-by comment about the Cuba section The "Cuba" section could use some reorganization so that the paragraphs are chronological. More context is needed about his roles within the Cuban government (and why are the dates of his appointments in footnotes? Wouldn't they be better and more helpful to the reader to just integrate them into the main text?) A copy-edit is needed: "Guevara later served as Minister of Industries, in which post he helped", "...would drive economic growth, all that was needed was will". In my opinion, the section should discuss more about his role in the "great debate" of moral vs. material incentives. He was a vocal advocate of "moral incentives", and his philosophical musings during this time were certainly influential in Cuba, if not altogether successful in getting Cuba to adopt his particular economic views. "Guevara played a key role in bringing to Cuba the Soviet nuclear-armed ballistic missiles..." Really? What was this key role? Explain! Budding Journalist 05:09, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
This is what I have gathered from the Jon Anderson book so far. Che originally educated Raul and Castro about guerrillas tactics. Che did fight ruthlessly in the Cuban Revolution, all though he missed much of the crucial action. He was the one on charge of executing people, until Castro made him stop because of the world-wide bad press.
Che inspire the revolution by his speeches and writing and to fight ruthlessly, executing a lot of people. He certainly was not responsible for it's success, even if he did play and important role early on. Che was pushing the peasant revolution while Castro and others realized that the urban guerrilla revolution was the way to go. Che was rigid ideologically, while Castro was pragmatic and this was an increasing source of friction betwwen them.
The Jon Anderson book says finally Che was given grand titles to get him out of the main stream - as the higher the title sounded, the less important the person was in the revolutionary structure. Che was stirring up unnecessary fuss with the U.S. and the Soviet Union. Castro also ordered him eventually to stop his summary executions as they were garnering bad press around the world. Anderson describes Che's increasing ideological rigidity and Castros's "realpolitik" meant that Castro needed eventually to ease Che out of the revolutionary structure and away from Cuba. The book also says that Castro sent Che traveling around the world, visiting world leaders, at least in part, to get him out of the way and eventually to get him out of Cuba. Che's subsequent attempts at revolution (Bolivia, the Congo) failed because his revolutionary ideas were flawed: Foco theory, Foco. None of the contrasting politic views and strategies between Castro and Ghe are described in the article. Nor is the complexity of their relationship described.
I would very much appreciate any references pointing to Che's revolutionary successes. The Cuban Revolution was not brought about by Che. In fact, he appears (according to Jon Anderson, Julia El Swieig, Anthony DePalma) to misunderstand the complexity of the Cuban situation by ignoring the importance of guerilla tactics in favor of a peasant revold.
Any additions or improvements you can add to the article would be welcome. However, personal opinions cannot be put in the article and do not supply reliable sources. Mattisse ( Talk) 13:01, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Matisse I fail to see the contradiction at present. Yes Lumumba was killed in 1961, but Laurent-Désiré Kabila was leading forces still loyal to his memory. Thus when Guevara arrives in the Congo in 1965, there are still Lumumba supporters present who are aligned with Kabila. Redthoreau ( talk TR 01:32, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
As early as 1959, Guevara had helped organize revolutionary expeditions overseas, all of which were unsuccessful. The first attempt was made in Panama; another in the Dominican Republic (led by Henry Fuerte, [3] also known as "El Argelino", and Enrique Jiménez Moya) [4] took place on 14 June of that same year. Some sources state that Guevara persuaded Castro to back him in personally leading Cuba's first military action in Sub-Saharan Africa, while other sources maintain that Castro convinced Guevara to undertake the mission, arguing that conditions in the various Latin American countries that had been under consideration for the possible establishment of guerrilla focos theory were not yet optimal. [5] Castro himself has said the latter is true. [6] Guevara previously in August of 1964 laid out why he believed the Congo was a major battleground against imperialism, stating that the North American monopolies were installing themselves in a battle to "own the Congo", in order to control the copper, radioactive minerals, and strategic raw materials. [7]
This needs to go in a section devoted to Chevara's revolutionary theory.
Mattisse ( Talk) 03:06, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
I have temporarily restored the external links of images/archival footage until other editors can weigh in on their inclusion/exclusion. I myself believe they should be included in the main article, but am open to suggestions and reasoning. Redthoreau ( talk TR 05:25, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Name changes can be made easily at any time.Likewise, the External links issue can be addressed latter. If the FA people stop feeling the article is hopeless, they will start making specific suggesting. Remember the task as set before us now. (Read Wikipedia:Featured article criteria). User:Marskell is an extremely well respected editor. This is what he suggests and therefore what we must do:
Suggested FA criteria concerns are POV (1d), focus (4), referencing (1c), and formatting (2). Marskell ( talk) 19:30, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I notice some POV has crept in overnight. Please go in the direction of removing POV. Also, do nothing that will make the article longer. Remove rather than add. Also, much of the article does not make sense. I am tempted to retrieve an earlier version for some sections. Mattisse ( Talk) 14:23, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Last night and this morning I spent a great deal of time rewording the lead as has been suggested to me before from Polaris. I painstakingly went through word by word and believe the finished product is a better place to continue editing from what was there before. I respect your opinion Matisse on the new version and am open to suggestions/criticisms. Redthoreau ( talk TR 14:27, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Redthoreau, if you change the lead one more time within a 24 hour period, you will be guilty of a 3RR rule. Do not revert my edits without discussion. You have overlinked the lead and added POV. This is exactly what the article does not need. Please work toward following the guidelines.
Further, the lead is the least important right now as it MUST reflect proportionally the sections of the article. Since the article is a mess currently, it is difficult to write a proper lead.
Please do not add further POV to the article, as the POV is the article's main problem.
Also, I notice that you have not worked on the much more important issue of the Congo section despite my edit summaries & tags. I take this to mean that you do not know how to fix it. Therefore, I will try to work on it.
Please work on the more import issues in the article than focusing on the lead. Mattisse ( Talk) 14:39, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
It is all yours. You are a grownup. You can figure these things out for yourself instead of demanding that others list mistakes and there rationale. Mattisse ( Talk) 15:35, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Matisse, I take it you are back editing again after a self imposed exile of 1 hour ? I only ask because it is confusing to watch you declare you are leaving only to have you resurface an hour later and ask for an explanation on content ... however I am happy to comply and deal with your concern specifically "as a grownup". I see that you have labeled him being internationally respected as a "dubious" statement. Would you like to explain your rationale for finding this statement "dubious". I find it to be common knowledge and if you desire I can ring off a plethora of articles, tributes, international monuments, books, etc that would make this statement accurate in scope. It is also just as accurate as declaring him “controversial” which you did. Redthoreau ( talk TR 18:05, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
According to the article TOC the lead should contain
How do you want to proceed? Mattisse ( Talk) 22:17, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
(copied from my talk page in reply to some of User:Redthoreau's postings there)
Name changes can be made easily at any time.Likewise, the External links issue can be addressed latter. If the FA people stop feeling the article is hopeless, they will start making specific suggesting. Remember the task as set before us now. (Read Wikipedia:Featured article criteria). User:Marskell is an extremely well respected editor. This is what he suggests and therefore what we must do:
Suggested FA criteria concerns are POV (1d), focus (4), referencing (1c), and formatting (2). Marskell ( talk) 19:30, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I notice some POV has crept in overnight. Please go in the direction of removing POV. Also, do nothing that will make the article longer. Remove rather than add. Also, much of the article does not make sense. I am tempted to retrieve an earlier version for some sections.
Mattisse (
Talk)
13:33, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
(outdent)
I have brought them up repeatedly.
The lead must mirror the article closely. Nothing can be mentioned in the lead that is not gone into detail in the article. The proportion of words about a subject in the lead must reflect the proportion given than subject in the article. OVERLINKING IS DISCOURAGED.
You have been told many times to read:
Plus, please read what I wrote in my reply to you in the above section on this talk page.
Additionallly:
I copied the reviewer's comments in the Reply above. Please read them. I am copying this to the article talk page. Mattisse ( Talk) 22:33, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Please do not contact me on my talk page. I am done with this article and your tactics. Mattisse ( Talk) 23:01, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Our resident "disgruntled" editor who storms off the article for good twice a day, has now taken it upon himself to go back and try and remove his additions to the article, which affects those who have edited his contributions and tied them into the overall article in reference to their own additions. It is not surprising, when looking at his past behavior, but it will surely take time to repair all of the damage he is reeking upon the article in his current temper tantrum. Any help by responsible editors will be appreciated once he is finished. Redthoreau ( talk TR 02:34, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
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