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This article should adhere to the gender identity guideline because it contains material about one or more trans men. Precedence should be given to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, anywhere in article space, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. Some people go by singular they pronouns, which are acceptable for use in articles. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Former, pre-transition names may only be included if the person was notable while using the name; outside of the main biographical article, such names should only appear once, in a footnote or parentheses.If material violating this guideline is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other related issues, please report the issue to the LGBT WikiProject, or, in the case of living people, to the BLP noticeboard. |
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Are there any more recent photos that reflect her very different look now? Spacecowboy420 ( talk) 08:28, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
Is there any point in directing people to the WB page, not updated since 2012? -- Zanimum ( talk) 02:32, 12 July 2017 (UTC) Zanimum ( talk) 02:32, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
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Name and pronoun use seems to be a bit all over the place in this article. I see that a previous RFC on the topic didn't resolve, instead was deactivated due to a couple issues. I can start a new one but first I just want to check and see if anyone is now opposed to using MOS:GENDERID guidelines, which would mean primarily using the name Jake Zyrus with he/him pronouns. If we mostly agree, we can resolve this faster than an RFC. Rab V ( talk) 23:17, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
In my view, we should follow MOS:GENDERID. But I agree that trying to implement that change, even if we achieve consensus on the talk page first, could prove contentious. David in DC ( talk) 14:39, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
I'll try changing the article soon to follow MOS:GENDERID since there seems to be no disagreement, but if it comes up can always start an RFC to settle this formally. Rab V ( talk) 01:24, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
Commentaery/opinion. The article as it stands does not make sense. The Guideline states both names may be used when substantial achievements have occurs under previous well known names. Prior to 2017, all refernces shoul;d be to Charice Pempengco (later Jake Zyrus). It's notable Charice/Zyrus was awarded a number of awards, expressly for Female Performers or Empowering Women. It defies logic to say "He was awarded Best Female Performer", the same for Zyrus. Zyrus never appeared on Ellen, or Oprah, three is no record of any guest of that name, just the same as when someone becomes married. Have respect for the changed status and name, but apply commonsense, no one would know who you mean saying Zyrus. Further, nothing has been achieved under the name Zyrus or as a TransMan, no EP's Singles or Albums, no concerts or movies. Only 2 appearance on TV talking about having stopped using the Charice name. He has not even changed his name, and has stated he will NOT change it to Jake Zyrus if he ever makes an official change, so Zyrus is an unused (so far) stage name, nothing more. Lets have the article rewritten to recognise name and gender at the time of occurence please.
The result of the move request was: not moved. There is no support for the move aside from the nominator, and the current title is consistent with MOS:GENDERID and WP:NAMECHANGES. ( non-admin closure) Chase ( talk | contributions) 16:27, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
Jake Zyrus → Charice Pempengco – No consensus for moving – Davey2010 Talk 16:17, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
There was a discussion of what the subject should be referred to above in the section Jake Zyrus RFC and everyone there was in favor of going by MOS:GENDERID for the article, which means referring to the subject as Jake Zyrus. Typically RFC's are not required for page moves, and since there was no disagreement on the talk for some days days it seemed fine. WP:NAMECHANGES seems pretty clear in this case either way that Jake Zyrus is the right name for this page. Do you want to have a separate RFC though on how to refer to Jake within this article? I see you have reverted my edits there without participating on the more recent conversations in the talk page first. I'm fine to start an RFC and settle this but if you think we can come to an agreement on how to handle this, that would be faster. Rab V ( talk) 18:16, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
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I believe this comment should stay as without it, it can seems like Oprah has made a derogatory comment calling him a girl when he is now a man and it adds more context to her quote. IP disagrees with me reverting them and has left some comments assuming I don't understand policy despite them ignoring WP:BRD or WP:AGF themselves as well as not bring it here. So I thought I'd bring it here and wanted other people's thoughts as I think it should stay and IP disagrees , so am happy to go with concensus on it instead. NZFC (talk) 05:09, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
Hi Red Jay, I've taken the discussion to Wikipedia:No_original_research/Noticeboard I agree about my comment about it maybe being derogatory isn't needed but still believe it adds context the the quote and so isn't OR. But wanted further input. NZFC (talk) 07:02, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
The girl with the voice is back! Then, the most talented girl in the world is here! Watch as her dream comes true.Was there originally an embedded video of Oprah saying those words herself? I believe it is acceptable to cite old talk show episodes as sources when they are directly attributed inline assuming they are still available. But if there is no legal way for members of the general public to access those sources anymore, it is a violation of WP:V. And if we can't attribute the quotation to Oprah herself inline, that raises questions of whether
In 2008, before his transition, Oprah.com included text calling him "the most talented girl in the world".would be UNDUE.
I would like for the earlier parts of the page before "she" became "he" to be marked with Charice or Charice Pempengco because you see, Charice was near and dear to me and I feel like by making it all "Jake Zyrus" you're making it as if Charice never existed. So what I am proposing is that all the information and pictures from before Charice's transformation into Jake Zyrus be marked with Charice and/or Charice Pempengco. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrianLyons314 ( talk • contribs) 22:51, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect
Zyrus. The discussion will occur at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 February 5#Zyrus until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.
Ivanvector's squirrel (
trees/
nuts)
13:50, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
"I am always thankful for the life of Charice that I experienced and the music that I shared, but that obviously belongs to her, it's not for me. I'm letting her go and be free" [emphasis added]. I seriously cannot understand why the article still has the work of Clarice under Jake's gender when he himself credited her work, not "his early work" or even "my early work" but hers.
I make no argument about any person's gender alignment or expression; it's not my place to do so. It's also not our place to regender people when the subjects themselves have clearly stated that they see themselves as a certain gender (or lack thereof) at a certain point in their lives. AZs we as a society come to grips with the divergence between biological, aligned and/or expressed gender and how it can shift during a person's life.
Lastly, this is an encyclopaedic work. It expresses what is known about a certain subject and expresses it in terms that align with the facts at the time. I get it with folks like
Charley Parkhurst who lived his entirely life as a man and never, as far as the historical record knows, expressed himself as a woman. The simple fact in this article is that Luke did not appear on
Glee. Charice Pempengco appeared. If Luke can acknowledge that, why can’t we?
Last1in (
talk)
02:02, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
The hatnote about his name states, "In this Philippine name, the middle name or maternal family name is Relucio and the surname or paternal family name is Pempengco." However, Jake's full name was deleted from the article to remove emphasis on his deadname, so the 'Relucio' part of the hatnote isn't helpful. Should the hatnote be removed completely? Or should it just be altered to keep 'Pempengco' in, since that part of the deadname is mentioned? JohnLaurensAnthonyRamos333 ( correct me if I'm wrong) 22:39, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
This is the
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Article policies
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Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 29 December 2007. The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
This article should adhere to the gender identity guideline because it contains material about one or more trans men. Precedence should be given to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, anywhere in article space, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. Some people go by singular they pronouns, which are acceptable for use in articles. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Former, pre-transition names may only be included if the person was notable while using the name; outside of the main biographical article, such names should only appear once, in a footnote or parentheses.If material violating this guideline is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other related issues, please report the issue to the LGBT WikiProject, or, in the case of living people, to the BLP noticeboard. |
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Are there any more recent photos that reflect her very different look now? Spacecowboy420 ( talk) 08:28, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
Is there any point in directing people to the WB page, not updated since 2012? -- Zanimum ( talk) 02:32, 12 July 2017 (UTC) Zanimum ( talk) 02:32, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
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Name and pronoun use seems to be a bit all over the place in this article. I see that a previous RFC on the topic didn't resolve, instead was deactivated due to a couple issues. I can start a new one but first I just want to check and see if anyone is now opposed to using MOS:GENDERID guidelines, which would mean primarily using the name Jake Zyrus with he/him pronouns. If we mostly agree, we can resolve this faster than an RFC. Rab V ( talk) 23:17, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
In my view, we should follow MOS:GENDERID. But I agree that trying to implement that change, even if we achieve consensus on the talk page first, could prove contentious. David in DC ( talk) 14:39, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
I'll try changing the article soon to follow MOS:GENDERID since there seems to be no disagreement, but if it comes up can always start an RFC to settle this formally. Rab V ( talk) 01:24, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
Commentaery/opinion. The article as it stands does not make sense. The Guideline states both names may be used when substantial achievements have occurs under previous well known names. Prior to 2017, all refernces shoul;d be to Charice Pempengco (later Jake Zyrus). It's notable Charice/Zyrus was awarded a number of awards, expressly for Female Performers or Empowering Women. It defies logic to say "He was awarded Best Female Performer", the same for Zyrus. Zyrus never appeared on Ellen, or Oprah, three is no record of any guest of that name, just the same as when someone becomes married. Have respect for the changed status and name, but apply commonsense, no one would know who you mean saying Zyrus. Further, nothing has been achieved under the name Zyrus or as a TransMan, no EP's Singles or Albums, no concerts or movies. Only 2 appearance on TV talking about having stopped using the Charice name. He has not even changed his name, and has stated he will NOT change it to Jake Zyrus if he ever makes an official change, so Zyrus is an unused (so far) stage name, nothing more. Lets have the article rewritten to recognise name and gender at the time of occurence please.
The result of the move request was: not moved. There is no support for the move aside from the nominator, and the current title is consistent with MOS:GENDERID and WP:NAMECHANGES. ( non-admin closure) Chase ( talk | contributions) 16:27, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
Jake Zyrus → Charice Pempengco – No consensus for moving – Davey2010 Talk 16:17, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
There was a discussion of what the subject should be referred to above in the section Jake Zyrus RFC and everyone there was in favor of going by MOS:GENDERID for the article, which means referring to the subject as Jake Zyrus. Typically RFC's are not required for page moves, and since there was no disagreement on the talk for some days days it seemed fine. WP:NAMECHANGES seems pretty clear in this case either way that Jake Zyrus is the right name for this page. Do you want to have a separate RFC though on how to refer to Jake within this article? I see you have reverted my edits there without participating on the more recent conversations in the talk page first. I'm fine to start an RFC and settle this but if you think we can come to an agreement on how to handle this, that would be faster. Rab V ( talk) 18:16, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
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{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://showbizandstyle.inquirer.net/breakingnews/breakingnews/view/20080726-150860/Charice-Pempengco-sings-The-Prayer-with-Andrea-Bocelli{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://www.intoscana.it/intoscana/informarsi/news.jsp?id_categoria=1210&id_sottocategoria=1211&id=182021&language=it{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://showbizandstyle.inquirer.net/entertainment/entertainment/view/20090501-202605/Charice-draws-musical-Inspiration-from-mom{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://top40.about.com/b/2010/04/24/justin-bieber-and-charice-on-oprah-winfrey-show-may-11-2010.htmlWhen you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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I believe this comment should stay as without it, it can seems like Oprah has made a derogatory comment calling him a girl when he is now a man and it adds more context to her quote. IP disagrees with me reverting them and has left some comments assuming I don't understand policy despite them ignoring WP:BRD or WP:AGF themselves as well as not bring it here. So I thought I'd bring it here and wanted other people's thoughts as I think it should stay and IP disagrees , so am happy to go with concensus on it instead. NZFC (talk) 05:09, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
Hi Red Jay, I've taken the discussion to Wikipedia:No_original_research/Noticeboard I agree about my comment about it maybe being derogatory isn't needed but still believe it adds context the the quote and so isn't OR. But wanted further input. NZFC (talk) 07:02, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
The girl with the voice is back! Then, the most talented girl in the world is here! Watch as her dream comes true.Was there originally an embedded video of Oprah saying those words herself? I believe it is acceptable to cite old talk show episodes as sources when they are directly attributed inline assuming they are still available. But if there is no legal way for members of the general public to access those sources anymore, it is a violation of WP:V. And if we can't attribute the quotation to Oprah herself inline, that raises questions of whether
In 2008, before his transition, Oprah.com included text calling him "the most talented girl in the world".would be UNDUE.
I would like for the earlier parts of the page before "she" became "he" to be marked with Charice or Charice Pempengco because you see, Charice was near and dear to me and I feel like by making it all "Jake Zyrus" you're making it as if Charice never existed. So what I am proposing is that all the information and pictures from before Charice's transformation into Jake Zyrus be marked with Charice and/or Charice Pempengco. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrianLyons314 ( talk • contribs) 22:51, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect
Zyrus. The discussion will occur at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 February 5#Zyrus until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.
Ivanvector's squirrel (
trees/
nuts)
13:50, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
"I am always thankful for the life of Charice that I experienced and the music that I shared, but that obviously belongs to her, it's not for me. I'm letting her go and be free" [emphasis added]. I seriously cannot understand why the article still has the work of Clarice under Jake's gender when he himself credited her work, not "his early work" or even "my early work" but hers.
I make no argument about any person's gender alignment or expression; it's not my place to do so. It's also not our place to regender people when the subjects themselves have clearly stated that they see themselves as a certain gender (or lack thereof) at a certain point in their lives. AZs we as a society come to grips with the divergence between biological, aligned and/or expressed gender and how it can shift during a person's life.
Lastly, this is an encyclopaedic work. It expresses what is known about a certain subject and expresses it in terms that align with the facts at the time. I get it with folks like
Charley Parkhurst who lived his entirely life as a man and never, as far as the historical record knows, expressed himself as a woman. The simple fact in this article is that Luke did not appear on
Glee. Charice Pempengco appeared. If Luke can acknowledge that, why can’t we?
Last1in (
talk)
02:02, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
The hatnote about his name states, "In this Philippine name, the middle name or maternal family name is Relucio and the surname or paternal family name is Pempengco." However, Jake's full name was deleted from the article to remove emphasis on his deadname, so the 'Relucio' part of the hatnote isn't helpful. Should the hatnote be removed completely? Or should it just be altered to keep 'Pempengco' in, since that part of the deadname is mentioned? JohnLaurensAnthonyRamos333 ( correct me if I'm wrong) 22:39, 26 April 2024 (UTC)