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Champagne from the Champagne region is a proper noun and protected designation from the European Union. Champagne with a little 'c' is like Korbel's California champagne is the imitation stuff that is not from the Champagne region. For reference, look at the consistent capitalization used by such wine experts as Katherine McNeil in the Wine Bible ISBN 1563054345 as well as these articles from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinal, CNN, Farlax's dictionary entry on Champagne, Wiley wine guide, Champagne mfg themselves use the capitalized Champagne, as well as Wine Spectator. Simply put, in the wine world Champagne wine from France being a proper noun is common and consistent knowledge. The article should reflect that appropriately. Agne Cheese/ Wine 03:23, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I inserted the following statement, which was quickly removed. As I indicated, I have no authoritative references, but it is factually true:
Regardless of the legal requirements for labeling, many consumers regard champaigne as a generic term for white sparkling wines, regardless of origin. The laws described here were intended to reverse this tradition and reserve the term as a designation of origin.
The problem is that the EU wants to claim that all other sparkling wines are imitations of champaign (as stated above), which is a matter of point of view, although legally inforceable in the EU. Passing a law does not make something true. I recall that some legislative body passed a law making pi = 3.00 -- Zeamays 21:46, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
The French association of champagne-makers also capitalise the word: http://www.champagne.fr/fr_lire_etiquette.html Robma ( talk) 17:47, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Copied from my talk Champagne from the Champagne region is a protected name, essentially a brand name like Pepsi or Budweiser (note the capitalization in those articles). In that context it is a proper noun and should be capitalized. When the term "champagne" is being hijacked by producers like Korbel, it becomes a different thing entirely-more a "style" rather than a distinct wine and then it should be lowercase. This is the pattern followed by the vast, vast majority of WP:RS used in wine articles and so it is only proper that Wikipedia continued the correct usage. Agne Cheese/ Wine 16:28, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
1: a white sparkling wine made in the old province of Champagne, France; also : a similar wine made elsewhere 2: a pale orange yellow to light grayish-yellowish brown" I suggest that the article should reflect this usage - at the moment it just reads like a handout from the regional producers association and fails neutrality. If as Agne27 suggests, this is an article about such wine from the Champagne region rather than elsewhere, then there needs to be a separate Wikipedia article for other wines which are made by the same method and also call themselves champagnes. However, it would seem more sensible to simply make this article more balanced.
Twilde ( talk) 15:30, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
anything on this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 219.108.16.189 ( talk) 05:19:15, August 19, 2007 (UTC)
Some content in the varieties section are from the merged articles Blanc de noirs and Prestige cuvée. Agne Cheese/ Wine 05:55, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
This one seems more B than not but some extra thoughts are welcomed. Here are my thoughts...
From what I have heard, the english (technically) invented champagne. They imported green, flat wine from Champagne and added sugar and molasses to start it fermenting. They also developed the strong coal-fired glass bottles and corks to contain it. As the records of the Royal Society show, what is now called méthode champenoise was first written down in England in 1662. The French added finesse and marketing flair, but it wasn't until 1876 that they perfected the brut style. Any more info on this?
Not the best source ever, but I found this information in "The Book of General Ignorance". It contains information suitable for use on the TV program QI.
By the way, I am a newcomer (this is actually the first thing I have written on Wiki), so please do not bite me if I have done something against Wikipedia policy!
-- Timdpr ( talk) 16:23, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
The Varieties sections states that 'Blanc de noir (white of black) Champagne is pressed from 100% Pinot Noir or black grapes', the Blanc de Noirs section states is it made from 'either Pinot Noir, Pinot Meunier or a blend of the two', which is it, a quick google seach is not conclusive. -- Stefan talk 06:30, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
The French would like us to believe that champagne must be produced in Champagne. I have in front of me two empty bottles of U.S. champagne from a New Year's party. The first bottle is Domaine Chandon and says it's made with the méthode traditionnelle but does not include the word 'champagne' anywhere on the bottle. Bear in mind that Domaine Chandon is a subsidiary of Moët & Chandon, the company that produces Dom Pérignon. The second bottle is André, which denotes itself as 'California Champagne' because its parent company E & J Gallo Winery does not bother to use the traditional method. My question is, why should we say that the Domaine Chandon--made the EXACT same way as champagne from the region of Champagne--is not champagne and relegate it the title of 'California Champagne'? The French have created a dichotomy whereby companies like E & J Gallo are allowed to turn the term 'California Champagne' into a reference to a wine that is not even made using the method of the Champagne region WHILE other companies are making champagne THROUGH the traditional method IN California, but they refuse to call it 'champagne' either for fear of losing standing in the international wine community or because their parent companies are French. The U.S. and France have no trade agreement on the terming of champagne, though France has such an agreement with fellow members of the European Union. My dispute with this article is that the opening states: "It is produced exclusively within the Champagne region of France,[1] from which it takes its name." The only source for this claim is [J. Robinson (ed) "The Oxford Companion to Wine" Third Edition pg 150–153 Oxford University Press 2006 ISBN 0198609906], which I claim is biased. Look at the third entry in the Wiktionary definition of champagne: "(informal, and legally incorrect in some jurisdictions) Any sparkling white wine." I would like to propose a middle ground, saying that since the term 'champagne' legally CAN be applied to 'any sparkling white wine' regardless of the method used or the place produced WITHIN THE U.S., saying that champagne "is produced exclusively within the Champagne region of France" is NOT accurate for all jurisdictions. It's a minor change to the article I'm proposing, but an important one that merits consideration. All I want is a disclaimer that not all jurisdictions RECOGNIZE the Champagne region's claim to the term 'champagne' and that some jurisdictions will allow the term 'champagne' so long as the method was traditional, and others will allow the term 'champagne' so long as the product is a bubbling white wine. Personally, I believe U.S. labeling law on this subject is too permissive in allowing André to be called champagne even though it is not made using the traditional method, but I refuse to accept Wikipedia telling me that the Domaine Chandon is NOT champagne. It is made using the traditional method, and the only reason--as far as I can tell--that Domaine Chandon doesn't call its 'Brut Classics' champagne is that its parent company is French. Domaine Chandon is made the EXACT same way as champagne made in Champagne. Since the U.S. allows André to call itself 'champagne' (it is only by the company's choice that it includes the term 'California'--there is no Californian or federal statute specifying that the term 'California' must immediately precede the term 'champagne', so André COULD decide to just call itself 'Champagne' and put 'Made in California' in tiny print along the bottom of the label and it WOULDN'T be false advertising), the Wikipedia article should recognize IN THE INTRODUCTION that not all jurisdictions recognize the Champagne region's claim and that different jurisdictions have different laws concerning the degree of similarity a product must have to the Champagne region's product in order to call itself 'champagne.' That's all I ask. Beeswax07 ( talk) 01:59, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure I was entirely clear: I understand that disputes over the term are mentioned in the introduction, but WIKIPEDIA takes a side! WIKIPEDIA opens by affirming the Champagne region's claim, which--to the reader--seems like it's the "Truth" with a capital 'T'. Then all other claims to the term--though they are equally valid in almost every jurisdiction in MY country--will appear invalid, despite the law saying otherwise. Wikipedia must not take sides in this debate that influences the world economy because Wikipedia is itself an important source. When people have debates about things like this and want to know a brief history of the issue, they trust Wikipedia. So if some person on a U.S. game show answers that champagne is 'any sparkling white wine' and loses a point because the show's producers trusted Wikipedia's statement that "It is produced exclusively within the Champagne region of France", the French will agree with the show's producers and American companies will agree with the contestant. The Wikipedia statement should read: "Some jurisdictions recognize ONLY the Champagne region's claim to the term 'champagne' while other jurisdictions allow other wines to be called 'champagne', either because they are made using the same method or because the final product is highly similar to the final product from the Champagne region. The issue of legality in internationally terming products 'champagne' has been a matter of contention between French and U.S. producers." NOWHERE should Wikipedia ASSERT that the Champagne region has an inherently correct claim. Beeswax07 ( talk) 02:17, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Let's be honest, Champagne is just a sparkling white wine, albeit one to have been marketed so successfully it's pulled a flanker and got special marketing privileges and references in the industry. All very clever, but one can see why folk get a bit agitated about it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.254.120.140 ( talk • contribs)
The correct use of the term 'champagne' is simply a matter dictated by usage. Since there are differences in how the term is used across the English speaking world (i.e. in the US 'champagne' and 'sparkling wine' are usually synonyms, but the same is not usually true in Europe) AND because there is already two articles with these names, I (as an American) have no problem using the article titled 'champagne' to refer to the stricter European sense. However, if so, then the article should only contain content which is specific to that sense. All content which applies generally to sparkling wines (especially the sections 'Champagne etiquette' and 'Health benefits') should be moved to the article 'sparkling wine'. Not doing so would be inconsistent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.213.68 ( talk) 22:30, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
I think that "White of blacks" and "White of whites" is a poor translation - better would be "White from black (grapes)" and "White from white (grapes)", since it refers to White wine being made from black / white grapes. Wine is not made of grapes, it is made from grapes. (Yes, you could say that it is made of grape juice, but that is singular). DonaldQ ( talk) 15:33, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
From unregistered reader: I believe the chapter on sinking champagne should be erased. I read the Swedish articles referred to in Swedish Wikipedia article on "sinking" (may easily be found following the link from this article) and it appears that some rich guys occasionally sink a bottle or two, but it's by no means common behavior. I don't think occasional showings of bad manners deserve to be mentioned here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.113.36.73 ( talk) 05:55, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
Subscript text
The result of the move request was: wine promoted to primary topic. Favonian ( talk) 18:10, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
Champagne (wine) → Champagne – By far the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, most other articles using the word are related to or deriving from the wine, including many that expand on its history, production, etc. Articles totally unrelated to the wine are mostly about obscure localities. Most who search "Champagne" are going to want the wine's article. — FoxCE ( talk • contribs) 04:38, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
The wine is "champagne" and the region is "Champagne", according to Merriam Webster, Oxford, MacMillan Dictionary, and Britannica. Anyone mind if make appropriate changes? Kauffner ( talk) 07:28, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
I would encourage JHunterJ and Kauffer to please continue with discussion (or maybe seek a 3rd party opinion) to get more consensus instead of trying to force an edit change to an article that has followed standard convention for most of its existence. This discussion has only been going on a few days and other editors have not had the opportunity to chime in. Agne Cheese/ Wine 16:30, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
Let's try to get a summary going. Again, my hope is to foster discussion rather than try to force edits. A few questions that would be nice to have answered.
There is no law against capitalizing semi-generics. Burgundy, Chablis and Moselle are always capitalized, regardless of where they are produced. How is this for a summary:
I always wonder why they called cold duck and Korbel champagne but it makes sense now. I would keep it as it is with the caps for the real stuff and no caps for Korbel and cold duck. Too confusing to call everything champagne without a difference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.156.96.27 ( talk) 18:33, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
I find the theory that upper case "Champagne" refers to wine from France, whereas lower case "champagne" is a knockoff, to be most peculiar. Are there any real world examples of this usage? Is there some wine author who elaborates on the differences between the two? Where does this idea come from? Kauffner ( talk) 02:31, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
I really don't think the dictionary argument is compelling. Dictionaries have stuff missing all the time and you can't expect them to know everything that an Encyclopedia is suppose to know. It seems pretty simple-Champagne is one thing and champagne is another. Lets keep the Champagne stuff here and leave the champagne stuff for the sparkling wine article. This is kinda silly thing to fight over. I mean the dictionary people aren't going to cry and have their feelings hurt if we use better sources and it will be far less confusing to the readers if we keep the Champagne stuff separate versus trying to cram all the sparkling wine stuff in one article. Personally I think everyone should just sit back, pop open your favorite bubbly (Champagne or champagne LOL) and just chill. No need to stress. The Bethling (Talk) 06:40, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
Obviously I work with several Champagne houses so my perspective is colored by my experience. But I want to point out that Wikipedia uses the trademarked, legal name of just about every person/place/product that there is an article on so why would this case be any different? It is a shame that the US's allowance of semi-generics has created this problem in the first place. If the name Champagne was protected then it wouldn't matter if it was capitalized or not. If you said Champagne/champagne, everyone would know that you are talking about the authentic wine crafted by the Champenois. Sadly, that isn't the case and when you talk about "champagne" no one knows if you are talking about the real wine or some artificially carbonated pop wine like Cook's. (I mean looking at this page the Champagne/champagne conundrum confuses even encyclopedia writers. You can imagine how much it confuses consumers!). But until the US government fixes this decade long problem, I would advise you Wikipedites to simply treat this article like you treat other articles like iPad, Big Mac, Pontiac Grand AM, etc and just use the proper trademark name that the Champenois have fought so hard to protect. Thank you for reading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Champagne is from Champagne ( talk • contribs) 16:27, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
Mr JHunterJ, you are worried that readers maybe confused between the wine and the region but that is actually a good thing! That is why the wine takes the name of its motherland. In wine we call this terroir which is a French term that doesn't really have an English translation but it basically means that the land and the wine are one in the same. Everything about the land, the people, the soil, the climate, the history contributes to the wine and makes it unique-like nothing else in the world! When people grab a bottle of Champagne they SHOULD think about the Champagne region because that is exactly how it is suppose to be much like when someone grabs a bottle of Napa wine they should think about your Napa Valley of California. You should want your readers associating the name of the article with the wine and the region, because they are one and the same, and NOT be confused if the article is about fake wine calling itself "champagne". Confusing the real Champagne for fake champagne produced elsewhere is far more confusing and a disservice to your readers than being reminded of the intimate connection between the Champagne land and the Champagne wine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Champagne is from Champagne ( talk • contribs) 07:30, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
So we have three things here. One is the fact that Champagne is the registered protected name of the wine that comes from the Champagne region of France.
Secondly, is that Champagne--like many other wines such as Barolo, Bordeaux, Rioja, etc are closely linked with the region they are produced from and that is the REASON why they are named after the wine. We don't speak of a lower-case barolos, bordeaux and riojas yet it is the same situation where the wine is named after the region (and protected by the EU as well). Third, while there are examples of common misuage of lower-case champagne, there is more than enough examples of reliable common use of the standard convention among reliable sources, many of which has already been repeated on this page ( The Wall Street Journal and Sacramento Bee). But to merely add to the list, here are the books using the standard convention from just 1 shelf of my wine reference book case. Much more can be added to this laundry list.
I think this list shows more than enough common usage--even if misuse and slang usage is still prevelant--that couple with the facts that the capitalized version of Champagne is the legal, protected trademark name (like iPad) and that it is standard convention to refer to wines named after the regions in the same way as the region (Barolo, Bordeux, etc) are strong enough arguments that we shouldn't reinvent the wheel and should treat this article just like we treat the Barolo and iPad articles. Agne Cheese/ Wine 22:37, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
Just adding a few more to the common usage list Agne Cheese/ Wine 23:30, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
- When deciding how to format a trademark, editors should choose among styles already in use (not invent new ones) and choose the style that most closely resembles standard English, regardless of the preference of the trademark owner.
Something that I am noticing is, and this echoes my earlier point, is that people who deal with wine on a daily basis and know what they are talking about rarely refer to sparkling wines from outside the Champagne AOC as champagne. If they do, it's a slip, it's tongue-in-cheek, they think the whole issue is BS, or they have a vested interest in producing sparkling wine with the word 'champagne' printed on the bottle. The more I read this article, the more I believe that nobody with at least a high school education is going to get confused about which region's bubbly is discussed, as Agne24 and I have been suggesting. In fact, the article almost exclusively discusses the wine from Champagne. If anything, the constantly changing case is already distracting. Likewise, nobody is going to be confused whether Champagne pertains to the region or the wine, as JHunterJ and Kauffner suggest.
Compromise, part I: I suggest dropping the notion of flip-flopping between upper and lower case when referring to the bottled fizz. Before responding to this, highlight all instances of the word champagne and honestly ask yourself whether there is any confusion.
Compromise, part II: Remove the ambiguities. The only major possibilities for confusion are two sections, but not because of provenance. The content in Etiquette and Health benefits might lead the reader to believe the information pertains only to the stuff from the AOC. Unless somebody can prove the health effects are linked only to the AOC wines, it might be better to move this content to an article that deals with the health effects of wine, followed by inserting a link in both Champagne and Sparkling wine. As for etiquette, opening and serving pertain to sparkling wines in general, thus it also belongs in a wider context. Encycloshave ( talk) 19:56, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
I was about to do some copy-edits and noticed AOC was spelled out mostly as 'Appellation d'Origine Contrôlée,' though 'Appellation d'origine contrôlée' appears as well. I did some poking around and found Appellation d'origine contrôlée only capitalizes the first word, as does its French counterpart. After reviewing a few French sites, Legifrance, Confédération Nationale des Appellations d'Origine Contrôlée, and Institut National des Appellations d'Origine, it appears that the French capitalize the first word only. Obviously if it's introducing AOC as an acronym, the standard is capitalize each word, but I figured it only made sense to follow suit. Thoughts? Encycloshave ( talk) 20:46, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
For several years now it has been reported that etchings and imperfections in glassware are incapable of producing nucleation points for champagne bubbles, and that the true nucleation points are dirt. Didn't want to step right in and edit something without a discussion first though.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1013069,00.html
The article cites this study- Uncorked: The Science of Champagne (Princeton University Press; 152 pages) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.96.105.84 ( talk) 05:18, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
I will leave it to others to edit this item, but I would like to point out that as it stands this article perpetuates a common misunderstanding, that "ripeness of the grapes" has something to do with the sweetness of the final product. This is in fact not the case.
Sugar is typically used three times in the Champagne-making process. The first use is at the time of primary fermentation, to permit grapes offering 9-10% alcohol equivalence from their natural sugars at harvest to yield a completely dry wine of 11% following the initial fermentation of their juices. The second, sometime after 1 January of the year following harvest, adds enough sugar (with yeast) to bring the wine to 12% following a further fermentation in the bottle; this process also provides the bubbles but again typically leaves the wine completely dry, or "nature". The third, at least fifteen months (not 1.5 years) after this second addition, when the yeast has fermented all the sugar in the base wine and has died or become dormant, is the "dosage" and is intended to give not simply "sweetness" but also to optimize the expression (nose, mouth and finish) of the wines in the cuvee being dosed. Of course, in the case of a "nature" wine, there will be no dosage, and the wine remains in the zero sugar state following the second step.
I note too that the sweetness rank given in the article lacks the 0 dosage group known as "brut nature", "non dose", or "dosage zero.". These, obviously, have not been given any sugar dosage at the third stage and contain less than 3 grams of sugar per litre.
GianniBGood ( talk) 15:30, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
I'm glad to have such a prompt response, but perhaps I did not phrase my comment carefully enough. There is no remaining sugar, original grape or otherwise, in the base wine fermented to 11% following the first use of sugar, or chaptalisation, for the primary fermentation. And the sugar which is added in the second stage to produce the bubbles is carefully calibrated to be exhausted at 12%. Any 'sweetness' that is in the final product is a result of the sugar dosage that occurs at the time of degorging the product and preparing it for shipping. It has nothing to do with the original grapes, which actually yield, particularly in the first and highest quality pressing, a very acidic juice which is rather unpleasant to the human palate. I am just back from 5 days of tastings in Champagne, and I have confirmed all this repeatedly with the 12 winemakers whose caves I visited and whose base wines and final products I have tasted.
GianniBGood ( talk) 19:36, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
I am not a wine chemist, and there well may be some minimal residual sugar in some Champagnes before degorging, but the levels are so low as to be undetectable to a taster and are effectively zero from a human standpoint. The winemaker in question, like most others, has a commercial interest in differentiating their wines, and I would take their claim about 'residual sugar' as so much noise.
On the question of verifiable third-party material, I understand that this is the Wikipedia way and would be happy to see someone run down this issue and settle it with such references. I am not going to do it, however! My original note was simply to point out the need to further control this statement in the article. There are some other points which strike me as incorrect, but this fundamental one about the Champagne-making process seems the most important.
79.0.116.36 ( talk) 07:07, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
I reverted this addition originally, as my edit summary clearly explained, not only because it was in an odd place, out of chronological context, but because – quite apart from it being oddly phrased (and with a spelling mistake when originally inserted) – the citation/quote was unsourced and its relevance was not explained. Both those two problems remain. Once it was removed, the burden is on the person adding it to sort that out and explain the point on the talk page rather than simply reinserting it, as they have now done. I'm not going to immediately join in the edit war Wran ( talk · contribs) has started, but unless those problems are sorted out, it is problematic content and should be removed, or clarified and sourced. N-HH talk/ edits 22:24, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
The wines of: Bordeaux wine, Burgundy wine, and Champagne have similar price ranges and reputation.
174.22.10.232 ( talk) 12:43, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
Particularly Champagne is a registered protected name and there is abundant evidence for its common usage Agne Cheese/ Wine 06:43, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
Dont beleive article mentioned "WHY" drinking of Champagne "Lucky" to do on New Years Eve. or for that matter why is Christening a ship with Champagne done? Thanks Eddson storms ( talk) 00:27, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
What is the sense of this sentence? "In France the first sparkling Champagne was created accidentally" The "oldest recorded sparkling wine" is mentioned a few sentences earlier - nothing is said there of accidents. If this "sparkling wine" is meant to be not Champagne, why is it mentioned? -- Richardson mcphillips ( talk) 01:29, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
I was under the impression there were several regions and producers of Champagne outside of France that were allowed to produce Champagne due to old treaties and loopholes in the law, granted the most major one I am vaguely aware of went under during the 2007 recession. Should these be added somewhere?
Jyggalypuff ( talk) 15:26, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
When (about) did the word “champagne” (mostly) mean sparkling wine. Was there a few-hundred-years of “brisk” champagne; or some other 2-word term to distinguish it from non-bubbly?
And, I mean in English; I expect it was different in French.
MBG02 ( talk) 21:12, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Giggle water and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 12#Giggle water until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Mdewman6 ( talk) 19:14, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
" The United States bans the use of all new U.S.-produced wine brands. " From my reading of the reference give, this is not the case. Given the convoluted language of the regulations, I will not change this sentence, but I hope someone more knowledgeable in the language of alcohol and law could check and, at least, reformulate this sentence. 2600:6C67:1C00:5F7E:51E1:B692:C2D9:D61E ( talk) 19:43, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
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Champagne from the Champagne region is a proper noun and protected designation from the European Union. Champagne with a little 'c' is like Korbel's California champagne is the imitation stuff that is not from the Champagne region. For reference, look at the consistent capitalization used by such wine experts as Katherine McNeil in the Wine Bible ISBN 1563054345 as well as these articles from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinal, CNN, Farlax's dictionary entry on Champagne, Wiley wine guide, Champagne mfg themselves use the capitalized Champagne, as well as Wine Spectator. Simply put, in the wine world Champagne wine from France being a proper noun is common and consistent knowledge. The article should reflect that appropriately. Agne Cheese/ Wine 03:23, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I inserted the following statement, which was quickly removed. As I indicated, I have no authoritative references, but it is factually true:
Regardless of the legal requirements for labeling, many consumers regard champaigne as a generic term for white sparkling wines, regardless of origin. The laws described here were intended to reverse this tradition and reserve the term as a designation of origin.
The problem is that the EU wants to claim that all other sparkling wines are imitations of champaign (as stated above), which is a matter of point of view, although legally inforceable in the EU. Passing a law does not make something true. I recall that some legislative body passed a law making pi = 3.00 -- Zeamays 21:46, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
The French association of champagne-makers also capitalise the word: http://www.champagne.fr/fr_lire_etiquette.html Robma ( talk) 17:47, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Copied from my talk Champagne from the Champagne region is a protected name, essentially a brand name like Pepsi or Budweiser (note the capitalization in those articles). In that context it is a proper noun and should be capitalized. When the term "champagne" is being hijacked by producers like Korbel, it becomes a different thing entirely-more a "style" rather than a distinct wine and then it should be lowercase. This is the pattern followed by the vast, vast majority of WP:RS used in wine articles and so it is only proper that Wikipedia continued the correct usage. Agne Cheese/ Wine 16:28, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
1: a white sparkling wine made in the old province of Champagne, France; also : a similar wine made elsewhere 2: a pale orange yellow to light grayish-yellowish brown" I suggest that the article should reflect this usage - at the moment it just reads like a handout from the regional producers association and fails neutrality. If as Agne27 suggests, this is an article about such wine from the Champagne region rather than elsewhere, then there needs to be a separate Wikipedia article for other wines which are made by the same method and also call themselves champagnes. However, it would seem more sensible to simply make this article more balanced.
Twilde ( talk) 15:30, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
anything on this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 219.108.16.189 ( talk) 05:19:15, August 19, 2007 (UTC)
Some content in the varieties section are from the merged articles Blanc de noirs and Prestige cuvée. Agne Cheese/ Wine 05:55, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
This one seems more B than not but some extra thoughts are welcomed. Here are my thoughts...
From what I have heard, the english (technically) invented champagne. They imported green, flat wine from Champagne and added sugar and molasses to start it fermenting. They also developed the strong coal-fired glass bottles and corks to contain it. As the records of the Royal Society show, what is now called méthode champenoise was first written down in England in 1662. The French added finesse and marketing flair, but it wasn't until 1876 that they perfected the brut style. Any more info on this?
Not the best source ever, but I found this information in "The Book of General Ignorance". It contains information suitable for use on the TV program QI.
By the way, I am a newcomer (this is actually the first thing I have written on Wiki), so please do not bite me if I have done something against Wikipedia policy!
-- Timdpr ( talk) 16:23, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
The Varieties sections states that 'Blanc de noir (white of black) Champagne is pressed from 100% Pinot Noir or black grapes', the Blanc de Noirs section states is it made from 'either Pinot Noir, Pinot Meunier or a blend of the two', which is it, a quick google seach is not conclusive. -- Stefan talk 06:30, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
The French would like us to believe that champagne must be produced in Champagne. I have in front of me two empty bottles of U.S. champagne from a New Year's party. The first bottle is Domaine Chandon and says it's made with the méthode traditionnelle but does not include the word 'champagne' anywhere on the bottle. Bear in mind that Domaine Chandon is a subsidiary of Moët & Chandon, the company that produces Dom Pérignon. The second bottle is André, which denotes itself as 'California Champagne' because its parent company E & J Gallo Winery does not bother to use the traditional method. My question is, why should we say that the Domaine Chandon--made the EXACT same way as champagne from the region of Champagne--is not champagne and relegate it the title of 'California Champagne'? The French have created a dichotomy whereby companies like E & J Gallo are allowed to turn the term 'California Champagne' into a reference to a wine that is not even made using the method of the Champagne region WHILE other companies are making champagne THROUGH the traditional method IN California, but they refuse to call it 'champagne' either for fear of losing standing in the international wine community or because their parent companies are French. The U.S. and France have no trade agreement on the terming of champagne, though France has such an agreement with fellow members of the European Union. My dispute with this article is that the opening states: "It is produced exclusively within the Champagne region of France,[1] from which it takes its name." The only source for this claim is [J. Robinson (ed) "The Oxford Companion to Wine" Third Edition pg 150–153 Oxford University Press 2006 ISBN 0198609906], which I claim is biased. Look at the third entry in the Wiktionary definition of champagne: "(informal, and legally incorrect in some jurisdictions) Any sparkling white wine." I would like to propose a middle ground, saying that since the term 'champagne' legally CAN be applied to 'any sparkling white wine' regardless of the method used or the place produced WITHIN THE U.S., saying that champagne "is produced exclusively within the Champagne region of France" is NOT accurate for all jurisdictions. It's a minor change to the article I'm proposing, but an important one that merits consideration. All I want is a disclaimer that not all jurisdictions RECOGNIZE the Champagne region's claim to the term 'champagne' and that some jurisdictions will allow the term 'champagne' so long as the method was traditional, and others will allow the term 'champagne' so long as the product is a bubbling white wine. Personally, I believe U.S. labeling law on this subject is too permissive in allowing André to be called champagne even though it is not made using the traditional method, but I refuse to accept Wikipedia telling me that the Domaine Chandon is NOT champagne. It is made using the traditional method, and the only reason--as far as I can tell--that Domaine Chandon doesn't call its 'Brut Classics' champagne is that its parent company is French. Domaine Chandon is made the EXACT same way as champagne made in Champagne. Since the U.S. allows André to call itself 'champagne' (it is only by the company's choice that it includes the term 'California'--there is no Californian or federal statute specifying that the term 'California' must immediately precede the term 'champagne', so André COULD decide to just call itself 'Champagne' and put 'Made in California' in tiny print along the bottom of the label and it WOULDN'T be false advertising), the Wikipedia article should recognize IN THE INTRODUCTION that not all jurisdictions recognize the Champagne region's claim and that different jurisdictions have different laws concerning the degree of similarity a product must have to the Champagne region's product in order to call itself 'champagne.' That's all I ask. Beeswax07 ( talk) 01:59, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure I was entirely clear: I understand that disputes over the term are mentioned in the introduction, but WIKIPEDIA takes a side! WIKIPEDIA opens by affirming the Champagne region's claim, which--to the reader--seems like it's the "Truth" with a capital 'T'. Then all other claims to the term--though they are equally valid in almost every jurisdiction in MY country--will appear invalid, despite the law saying otherwise. Wikipedia must not take sides in this debate that influences the world economy because Wikipedia is itself an important source. When people have debates about things like this and want to know a brief history of the issue, they trust Wikipedia. So if some person on a U.S. game show answers that champagne is 'any sparkling white wine' and loses a point because the show's producers trusted Wikipedia's statement that "It is produced exclusively within the Champagne region of France", the French will agree with the show's producers and American companies will agree with the contestant. The Wikipedia statement should read: "Some jurisdictions recognize ONLY the Champagne region's claim to the term 'champagne' while other jurisdictions allow other wines to be called 'champagne', either because they are made using the same method or because the final product is highly similar to the final product from the Champagne region. The issue of legality in internationally terming products 'champagne' has been a matter of contention between French and U.S. producers." NOWHERE should Wikipedia ASSERT that the Champagne region has an inherently correct claim. Beeswax07 ( talk) 02:17, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Let's be honest, Champagne is just a sparkling white wine, albeit one to have been marketed so successfully it's pulled a flanker and got special marketing privileges and references in the industry. All very clever, but one can see why folk get a bit agitated about it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.254.120.140 ( talk • contribs)
The correct use of the term 'champagne' is simply a matter dictated by usage. Since there are differences in how the term is used across the English speaking world (i.e. in the US 'champagne' and 'sparkling wine' are usually synonyms, but the same is not usually true in Europe) AND because there is already two articles with these names, I (as an American) have no problem using the article titled 'champagne' to refer to the stricter European sense. However, if so, then the article should only contain content which is specific to that sense. All content which applies generally to sparkling wines (especially the sections 'Champagne etiquette' and 'Health benefits') should be moved to the article 'sparkling wine'. Not doing so would be inconsistent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.213.68 ( talk) 22:30, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
I think that "White of blacks" and "White of whites" is a poor translation - better would be "White from black (grapes)" and "White from white (grapes)", since it refers to White wine being made from black / white grapes. Wine is not made of grapes, it is made from grapes. (Yes, you could say that it is made of grape juice, but that is singular). DonaldQ ( talk) 15:33, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
From unregistered reader: I believe the chapter on sinking champagne should be erased. I read the Swedish articles referred to in Swedish Wikipedia article on "sinking" (may easily be found following the link from this article) and it appears that some rich guys occasionally sink a bottle or two, but it's by no means common behavior. I don't think occasional showings of bad manners deserve to be mentioned here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.113.36.73 ( talk) 05:55, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
Subscript text
The result of the move request was: wine promoted to primary topic. Favonian ( talk) 18:10, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
Champagne (wine) → Champagne – By far the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, most other articles using the word are related to or deriving from the wine, including many that expand on its history, production, etc. Articles totally unrelated to the wine are mostly about obscure localities. Most who search "Champagne" are going to want the wine's article. — FoxCE ( talk • contribs) 04:38, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
The wine is "champagne" and the region is "Champagne", according to Merriam Webster, Oxford, MacMillan Dictionary, and Britannica. Anyone mind if make appropriate changes? Kauffner ( talk) 07:28, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
I would encourage JHunterJ and Kauffer to please continue with discussion (or maybe seek a 3rd party opinion) to get more consensus instead of trying to force an edit change to an article that has followed standard convention for most of its existence. This discussion has only been going on a few days and other editors have not had the opportunity to chime in. Agne Cheese/ Wine 16:30, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
Let's try to get a summary going. Again, my hope is to foster discussion rather than try to force edits. A few questions that would be nice to have answered.
There is no law against capitalizing semi-generics. Burgundy, Chablis and Moselle are always capitalized, regardless of where they are produced. How is this for a summary:
I always wonder why they called cold duck and Korbel champagne but it makes sense now. I would keep it as it is with the caps for the real stuff and no caps for Korbel and cold duck. Too confusing to call everything champagne without a difference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.156.96.27 ( talk) 18:33, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
I find the theory that upper case "Champagne" refers to wine from France, whereas lower case "champagne" is a knockoff, to be most peculiar. Are there any real world examples of this usage? Is there some wine author who elaborates on the differences between the two? Where does this idea come from? Kauffner ( talk) 02:31, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
I really don't think the dictionary argument is compelling. Dictionaries have stuff missing all the time and you can't expect them to know everything that an Encyclopedia is suppose to know. It seems pretty simple-Champagne is one thing and champagne is another. Lets keep the Champagne stuff here and leave the champagne stuff for the sparkling wine article. This is kinda silly thing to fight over. I mean the dictionary people aren't going to cry and have their feelings hurt if we use better sources and it will be far less confusing to the readers if we keep the Champagne stuff separate versus trying to cram all the sparkling wine stuff in one article. Personally I think everyone should just sit back, pop open your favorite bubbly (Champagne or champagne LOL) and just chill. No need to stress. The Bethling (Talk) 06:40, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
Obviously I work with several Champagne houses so my perspective is colored by my experience. But I want to point out that Wikipedia uses the trademarked, legal name of just about every person/place/product that there is an article on so why would this case be any different? It is a shame that the US's allowance of semi-generics has created this problem in the first place. If the name Champagne was protected then it wouldn't matter if it was capitalized or not. If you said Champagne/champagne, everyone would know that you are talking about the authentic wine crafted by the Champenois. Sadly, that isn't the case and when you talk about "champagne" no one knows if you are talking about the real wine or some artificially carbonated pop wine like Cook's. (I mean looking at this page the Champagne/champagne conundrum confuses even encyclopedia writers. You can imagine how much it confuses consumers!). But until the US government fixes this decade long problem, I would advise you Wikipedites to simply treat this article like you treat other articles like iPad, Big Mac, Pontiac Grand AM, etc and just use the proper trademark name that the Champenois have fought so hard to protect. Thank you for reading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Champagne is from Champagne ( talk • contribs) 16:27, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
Mr JHunterJ, you are worried that readers maybe confused between the wine and the region but that is actually a good thing! That is why the wine takes the name of its motherland. In wine we call this terroir which is a French term that doesn't really have an English translation but it basically means that the land and the wine are one in the same. Everything about the land, the people, the soil, the climate, the history contributes to the wine and makes it unique-like nothing else in the world! When people grab a bottle of Champagne they SHOULD think about the Champagne region because that is exactly how it is suppose to be much like when someone grabs a bottle of Napa wine they should think about your Napa Valley of California. You should want your readers associating the name of the article with the wine and the region, because they are one and the same, and NOT be confused if the article is about fake wine calling itself "champagne". Confusing the real Champagne for fake champagne produced elsewhere is far more confusing and a disservice to your readers than being reminded of the intimate connection between the Champagne land and the Champagne wine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Champagne is from Champagne ( talk • contribs) 07:30, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
So we have three things here. One is the fact that Champagne is the registered protected name of the wine that comes from the Champagne region of France.
Secondly, is that Champagne--like many other wines such as Barolo, Bordeaux, Rioja, etc are closely linked with the region they are produced from and that is the REASON why they are named after the wine. We don't speak of a lower-case barolos, bordeaux and riojas yet it is the same situation where the wine is named after the region (and protected by the EU as well). Third, while there are examples of common misuage of lower-case champagne, there is more than enough examples of reliable common use of the standard convention among reliable sources, many of which has already been repeated on this page ( The Wall Street Journal and Sacramento Bee). But to merely add to the list, here are the books using the standard convention from just 1 shelf of my wine reference book case. Much more can be added to this laundry list.
I think this list shows more than enough common usage--even if misuse and slang usage is still prevelant--that couple with the facts that the capitalized version of Champagne is the legal, protected trademark name (like iPad) and that it is standard convention to refer to wines named after the regions in the same way as the region (Barolo, Bordeux, etc) are strong enough arguments that we shouldn't reinvent the wheel and should treat this article just like we treat the Barolo and iPad articles. Agne Cheese/ Wine 22:37, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
Just adding a few more to the common usage list Agne Cheese/ Wine 23:30, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
- When deciding how to format a trademark, editors should choose among styles already in use (not invent new ones) and choose the style that most closely resembles standard English, regardless of the preference of the trademark owner.
Something that I am noticing is, and this echoes my earlier point, is that people who deal with wine on a daily basis and know what they are talking about rarely refer to sparkling wines from outside the Champagne AOC as champagne. If they do, it's a slip, it's tongue-in-cheek, they think the whole issue is BS, or they have a vested interest in producing sparkling wine with the word 'champagne' printed on the bottle. The more I read this article, the more I believe that nobody with at least a high school education is going to get confused about which region's bubbly is discussed, as Agne24 and I have been suggesting. In fact, the article almost exclusively discusses the wine from Champagne. If anything, the constantly changing case is already distracting. Likewise, nobody is going to be confused whether Champagne pertains to the region or the wine, as JHunterJ and Kauffner suggest.
Compromise, part I: I suggest dropping the notion of flip-flopping between upper and lower case when referring to the bottled fizz. Before responding to this, highlight all instances of the word champagne and honestly ask yourself whether there is any confusion.
Compromise, part II: Remove the ambiguities. The only major possibilities for confusion are two sections, but not because of provenance. The content in Etiquette and Health benefits might lead the reader to believe the information pertains only to the stuff from the AOC. Unless somebody can prove the health effects are linked only to the AOC wines, it might be better to move this content to an article that deals with the health effects of wine, followed by inserting a link in both Champagne and Sparkling wine. As for etiquette, opening and serving pertain to sparkling wines in general, thus it also belongs in a wider context. Encycloshave ( talk) 19:56, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
I was about to do some copy-edits and noticed AOC was spelled out mostly as 'Appellation d'Origine Contrôlée,' though 'Appellation d'origine contrôlée' appears as well. I did some poking around and found Appellation d'origine contrôlée only capitalizes the first word, as does its French counterpart. After reviewing a few French sites, Legifrance, Confédération Nationale des Appellations d'Origine Contrôlée, and Institut National des Appellations d'Origine, it appears that the French capitalize the first word only. Obviously if it's introducing AOC as an acronym, the standard is capitalize each word, but I figured it only made sense to follow suit. Thoughts? Encycloshave ( talk) 20:46, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
For several years now it has been reported that etchings and imperfections in glassware are incapable of producing nucleation points for champagne bubbles, and that the true nucleation points are dirt. Didn't want to step right in and edit something without a discussion first though.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1013069,00.html
The article cites this study- Uncorked: The Science of Champagne (Princeton University Press; 152 pages) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.96.105.84 ( talk) 05:18, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
I will leave it to others to edit this item, but I would like to point out that as it stands this article perpetuates a common misunderstanding, that "ripeness of the grapes" has something to do with the sweetness of the final product. This is in fact not the case.
Sugar is typically used three times in the Champagne-making process. The first use is at the time of primary fermentation, to permit grapes offering 9-10% alcohol equivalence from their natural sugars at harvest to yield a completely dry wine of 11% following the initial fermentation of their juices. The second, sometime after 1 January of the year following harvest, adds enough sugar (with yeast) to bring the wine to 12% following a further fermentation in the bottle; this process also provides the bubbles but again typically leaves the wine completely dry, or "nature". The third, at least fifteen months (not 1.5 years) after this second addition, when the yeast has fermented all the sugar in the base wine and has died or become dormant, is the "dosage" and is intended to give not simply "sweetness" but also to optimize the expression (nose, mouth and finish) of the wines in the cuvee being dosed. Of course, in the case of a "nature" wine, there will be no dosage, and the wine remains in the zero sugar state following the second step.
I note too that the sweetness rank given in the article lacks the 0 dosage group known as "brut nature", "non dose", or "dosage zero.". These, obviously, have not been given any sugar dosage at the third stage and contain less than 3 grams of sugar per litre.
GianniBGood ( talk) 15:30, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
I'm glad to have such a prompt response, but perhaps I did not phrase my comment carefully enough. There is no remaining sugar, original grape or otherwise, in the base wine fermented to 11% following the first use of sugar, or chaptalisation, for the primary fermentation. And the sugar which is added in the second stage to produce the bubbles is carefully calibrated to be exhausted at 12%. Any 'sweetness' that is in the final product is a result of the sugar dosage that occurs at the time of degorging the product and preparing it for shipping. It has nothing to do with the original grapes, which actually yield, particularly in the first and highest quality pressing, a very acidic juice which is rather unpleasant to the human palate. I am just back from 5 days of tastings in Champagne, and I have confirmed all this repeatedly with the 12 winemakers whose caves I visited and whose base wines and final products I have tasted.
GianniBGood ( talk) 19:36, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
I am not a wine chemist, and there well may be some minimal residual sugar in some Champagnes before degorging, but the levels are so low as to be undetectable to a taster and are effectively zero from a human standpoint. The winemaker in question, like most others, has a commercial interest in differentiating their wines, and I would take their claim about 'residual sugar' as so much noise.
On the question of verifiable third-party material, I understand that this is the Wikipedia way and would be happy to see someone run down this issue and settle it with such references. I am not going to do it, however! My original note was simply to point out the need to further control this statement in the article. There are some other points which strike me as incorrect, but this fundamental one about the Champagne-making process seems the most important.
79.0.116.36 ( talk) 07:07, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
I reverted this addition originally, as my edit summary clearly explained, not only because it was in an odd place, out of chronological context, but because – quite apart from it being oddly phrased (and with a spelling mistake when originally inserted) – the citation/quote was unsourced and its relevance was not explained. Both those two problems remain. Once it was removed, the burden is on the person adding it to sort that out and explain the point on the talk page rather than simply reinserting it, as they have now done. I'm not going to immediately join in the edit war Wran ( talk · contribs) has started, but unless those problems are sorted out, it is problematic content and should be removed, or clarified and sourced. N-HH talk/ edits 22:24, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
The wines of: Bordeaux wine, Burgundy wine, and Champagne have similar price ranges and reputation.
174.22.10.232 ( talk) 12:43, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
Particularly Champagne is a registered protected name and there is abundant evidence for its common usage Agne Cheese/ Wine 06:43, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
Dont beleive article mentioned "WHY" drinking of Champagne "Lucky" to do on New Years Eve. or for that matter why is Christening a ship with Champagne done? Thanks Eddson storms ( talk) 00:27, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
What is the sense of this sentence? "In France the first sparkling Champagne was created accidentally" The "oldest recorded sparkling wine" is mentioned a few sentences earlier - nothing is said there of accidents. If this "sparkling wine" is meant to be not Champagne, why is it mentioned? -- Richardson mcphillips ( talk) 01:29, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
I was under the impression there were several regions and producers of Champagne outside of France that were allowed to produce Champagne due to old treaties and loopholes in the law, granted the most major one I am vaguely aware of went under during the 2007 recession. Should these be added somewhere?
Jyggalypuff ( talk) 15:26, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
When (about) did the word “champagne” (mostly) mean sparkling wine. Was there a few-hundred-years of “brisk” champagne; or some other 2-word term to distinguish it from non-bubbly?
And, I mean in English; I expect it was different in French.
MBG02 ( talk) 21:12, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Giggle water and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 12#Giggle water until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Mdewman6 ( talk) 19:14, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
" The United States bans the use of all new U.S.-produced wine brands. " From my reading of the reference give, this is not the case. Given the convoluted language of the regulations, I will not change this sentence, but I hope someone more knowledgeable in the language of alcohol and law could check and, at least, reformulate this sentence. 2600:6C67:1C00:5F7E:51E1:B692:C2D9:D61E ( talk) 19:43, 1 October 2023 (UTC)