This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Chakravarti (Sanskrit term) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
The Chakravartin article already exists. The original Sanskrit word transliterates as that. Ref [1] Imc 16:25, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Is there a policy concerning the preferred citation of Sanskrit words? Cakravartin is the stem form, but cakravartī is the nom. sing.; arguably, the word is better known in its Pāli form cakkavatti, or in the Thai and Sinhala derivatives thereof (there is, for instance, a perhaps spurious but nonetheless significant literature on the relationship of the "cakkavatti ideal" to the modern Thai monarchy). It does appear, though, from Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(Indic)#Naming_and_transliteration, that chakravatin is a deprecated transliteration, as is chakravarti. Is there consensus on these issues? Rājagṛha 17:10, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Where are the reliable sources that use the term dharmic religions in the context of this article? Dharmic religions is a now deleted obscure neologism and should not be used throughout Wikipedia. a good alternative is Indian religions. The number of google scholar results for "Indian religions"+"Indian religion" is (45.600 + 84.200) while it is only (492+475) for "dharmic religions" +"dharmic religion". See Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2007_September_8. Andries 19:21, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Here, for example, Women in the Pure Land: Eshinni's View of Rebirth as Expressed in Her Letters the five hindrances are said to be the following: sorry, I have been wrong, the correct term in this context is the five obstacles. And wrong again, it is the five obstructions.
Okay, footnote 21 says: "originally referred to as " five states"; for some reason it was translated into Chinese as "five obstructions". Nagata, "Transitions in Attitudes toward Women," 280.
Quotation from pages 11 and 12 of this text:
As you can see, the name of those early sutras are not mentioned.
Here, for example WOMEN IN ZEN BUDDHISM: Chinese Bhiksunis in the Ch'an Tradition by Heng-Ching Shih it is said:
Seems as if a woman had the obstacles plus The Five Hindrances.
P.S. In this text it is also said: "Women are said to have five obstacles, namely being incapable of becoming a Brahma King, `Sakra` , King `Mara` , Cakravartin or Buddha." I have inserted this quotation into the article.
Here, too, are mentioned the "five obstacles": [ http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/issues/2006/spring/women_of_the_way_review.html The Lost Lineage].
quotation from the text above: “A foundational belief of Buddhism is that the attributes of the self are without essence.…We are taught in our first lesson as Buddhists that to grasp at something as permanent is the very source of suffering.…To treat men and women unequally is to act as though gender were permanent, eternal, with intrinsic self-identity—exactly the opposite of all other phenomena. It is to contradict the teaching.”
Still no quotation to be used for the article. I'll go on searching.
This book The Power of Denial: Buddhism, Purity, and Gender (Buddhisms) in the table of contents mentions "The Five Obstacles and the Three Dependences 62".
Source: I've found some German article referring to Majjhima-Nikaya (115,A, 1,20). I'll try to find an English text of the very spot.
There is no translation by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, [5].
I'd like to quote a longer part of the Majjhima-Nikaya:
As far as I am informed, Buddha Shakyamuni is thought to have stated somewhere else that women can be Buddha, too. Where is it to be found?
Mahapajapati Gotami "At the birth of each sister, interpreters of bodily marks prophesied that the children would be cakkavattins" In case there is any source for that, it has to be mentioned, too.
[6] "Siddhattha was the son of Suddhodana. His mother was Siri Maha Maya of Koliyas, the other group of the Mongoloid people. Siddhattha was born in 623 B.C. in Lumbini Park, between Kapilavatthu and Devadaha. He was the "son in the hope" of the Sakyans. He possessed the thirty-two marks of a Superman. The astrologist foretold that if he lived the life of the House, he would become the Supreme Monarch -- the Cakravartin; but if he went forth from the life of the House into the Homeless State, he would become an Arahant, A Buddha Supreme, rolling back the veil of ignorance from the world.[3] He, thus, was the "goal in the hope" of the Sakyans. His father and people loved him and wanted him to be the Supreme Monarch. For it meant that they wanted to throw off the yoke of the Kosalans' power. Their dream might be realized in the near future." Somebody should insert the fact, that the term cakravartin has been applied on the Buddha to be around his birth.
"Monks, I don't envision any other single strength so hard to overcome as this: the strength of Mara. 3 And the adopting of skillful qualities is what causes this merit to increase." 4 footnote 4 4. This is the refrain repeated with each stage in the account of how human life will improve in the aftermath of the sword-interval. Here, "merit" seems to have the meaning it has in Iti 22: "Don't be afraid of acts of merit." This is another way of saying what is blissful, desirable, pleasing, endearing, charming — i.e., acts of merit."
Is there another commentary or another translation?
"On the fifth day of his son's life, the king invited five wise men to witness the naming ceremony and to suggest a good name for the prince. The wise men examined the birthmarks of the prince and concluded, "The prince will be King of Kings if he wants to rule. If he chooses a religious life then he will become the Wisest — the Buddha."
The youngest of the five wise men, Kondanna, then said, "This prince will be the Buddha and nothing else."
Then the wise men gave him the name Siddhartha meaning "wish-fulfilled" or "one who has accomplished his goal"."
I still want to insert this story. How best?
The result of the move request was: Not moved – Still no convergence after a week relisted. ( non-admin closure) Dicklyon ( talk) 04:52, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
Chakravarti (Sanskrit term) →
Cakravartin (mythological figure) – The term is not only used in Sanskrit texts, but also in
Pāli texts of Buddhism
[8] and Jainism,
[9] so the current name will not do. Also, the Sanskrit spelling, following the standard Monier-Williams dictionary, is cakravartin, not chakravarti.
[10]
Farang Rak Tham
(Talk) 19:46, 15 July 2019 (UTC) --Relisting.
Andrewa (
talk) 01:25, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
Relisting comment: It seems to me that there is much still to discuss. There should probably be either an article or a DAB at Chakravarti rather than the present redirect. Heads-ups at the talk pages of other affected articles would also be good. Andrewa ( talk) 01:25, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
Tagalog 152.32.99.143 ( talk) 14:03, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Chakravarti (Sanskrit term) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
The Chakravartin article already exists. The original Sanskrit word transliterates as that. Ref [1] Imc 16:25, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Is there a policy concerning the preferred citation of Sanskrit words? Cakravartin is the stem form, but cakravartī is the nom. sing.; arguably, the word is better known in its Pāli form cakkavatti, or in the Thai and Sinhala derivatives thereof (there is, for instance, a perhaps spurious but nonetheless significant literature on the relationship of the "cakkavatti ideal" to the modern Thai monarchy). It does appear, though, from Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(Indic)#Naming_and_transliteration, that chakravatin is a deprecated transliteration, as is chakravarti. Is there consensus on these issues? Rājagṛha 17:10, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Where are the reliable sources that use the term dharmic religions in the context of this article? Dharmic religions is a now deleted obscure neologism and should not be used throughout Wikipedia. a good alternative is Indian religions. The number of google scholar results for "Indian religions"+"Indian religion" is (45.600 + 84.200) while it is only (492+475) for "dharmic religions" +"dharmic religion". See Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2007_September_8. Andries 19:21, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Here, for example, Women in the Pure Land: Eshinni's View of Rebirth as Expressed in Her Letters the five hindrances are said to be the following: sorry, I have been wrong, the correct term in this context is the five obstacles. And wrong again, it is the five obstructions.
Okay, footnote 21 says: "originally referred to as " five states"; for some reason it was translated into Chinese as "five obstructions". Nagata, "Transitions in Attitudes toward Women," 280.
Quotation from pages 11 and 12 of this text:
As you can see, the name of those early sutras are not mentioned.
Here, for example WOMEN IN ZEN BUDDHISM: Chinese Bhiksunis in the Ch'an Tradition by Heng-Ching Shih it is said:
Seems as if a woman had the obstacles plus The Five Hindrances.
P.S. In this text it is also said: "Women are said to have five obstacles, namely being incapable of becoming a Brahma King, `Sakra` , King `Mara` , Cakravartin or Buddha." I have inserted this quotation into the article.
Here, too, are mentioned the "five obstacles": [ http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/issues/2006/spring/women_of_the_way_review.html The Lost Lineage].
quotation from the text above: “A foundational belief of Buddhism is that the attributes of the self are without essence.…We are taught in our first lesson as Buddhists that to grasp at something as permanent is the very source of suffering.…To treat men and women unequally is to act as though gender were permanent, eternal, with intrinsic self-identity—exactly the opposite of all other phenomena. It is to contradict the teaching.”
Still no quotation to be used for the article. I'll go on searching.
This book The Power of Denial: Buddhism, Purity, and Gender (Buddhisms) in the table of contents mentions "The Five Obstacles and the Three Dependences 62".
Source: I've found some German article referring to Majjhima-Nikaya (115,A, 1,20). I'll try to find an English text of the very spot.
There is no translation by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, [5].
I'd like to quote a longer part of the Majjhima-Nikaya:
As far as I am informed, Buddha Shakyamuni is thought to have stated somewhere else that women can be Buddha, too. Where is it to be found?
Mahapajapati Gotami "At the birth of each sister, interpreters of bodily marks prophesied that the children would be cakkavattins" In case there is any source for that, it has to be mentioned, too.
[6] "Siddhattha was the son of Suddhodana. His mother was Siri Maha Maya of Koliyas, the other group of the Mongoloid people. Siddhattha was born in 623 B.C. in Lumbini Park, between Kapilavatthu and Devadaha. He was the "son in the hope" of the Sakyans. He possessed the thirty-two marks of a Superman. The astrologist foretold that if he lived the life of the House, he would become the Supreme Monarch -- the Cakravartin; but if he went forth from the life of the House into the Homeless State, he would become an Arahant, A Buddha Supreme, rolling back the veil of ignorance from the world.[3] He, thus, was the "goal in the hope" of the Sakyans. His father and people loved him and wanted him to be the Supreme Monarch. For it meant that they wanted to throw off the yoke of the Kosalans' power. Their dream might be realized in the near future." Somebody should insert the fact, that the term cakravartin has been applied on the Buddha to be around his birth.
"Monks, I don't envision any other single strength so hard to overcome as this: the strength of Mara. 3 And the adopting of skillful qualities is what causes this merit to increase." 4 footnote 4 4. This is the refrain repeated with each stage in the account of how human life will improve in the aftermath of the sword-interval. Here, "merit" seems to have the meaning it has in Iti 22: "Don't be afraid of acts of merit." This is another way of saying what is blissful, desirable, pleasing, endearing, charming — i.e., acts of merit."
Is there another commentary or another translation?
"On the fifth day of his son's life, the king invited five wise men to witness the naming ceremony and to suggest a good name for the prince. The wise men examined the birthmarks of the prince and concluded, "The prince will be King of Kings if he wants to rule. If he chooses a religious life then he will become the Wisest — the Buddha."
The youngest of the five wise men, Kondanna, then said, "This prince will be the Buddha and nothing else."
Then the wise men gave him the name Siddhartha meaning "wish-fulfilled" or "one who has accomplished his goal"."
I still want to insert this story. How best?
The result of the move request was: Not moved – Still no convergence after a week relisted. ( non-admin closure) Dicklyon ( talk) 04:52, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
Chakravarti (Sanskrit term) →
Cakravartin (mythological figure) – The term is not only used in Sanskrit texts, but also in
Pāli texts of Buddhism
[8] and Jainism,
[9] so the current name will not do. Also, the Sanskrit spelling, following the standard Monier-Williams dictionary, is cakravartin, not chakravarti.
[10]
Farang Rak Tham
(Talk) 19:46, 15 July 2019 (UTC) --Relisting.
Andrewa (
talk) 01:25, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
Relisting comment: It seems to me that there is much still to discuss. There should probably be either an article or a DAB at Chakravarti rather than the present redirect. Heads-ups at the talk pages of other affected articles would also be good. Andrewa ( talk) 01:25, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
Tagalog 152.32.99.143 ( talk) 14:03, 24 January 2022 (UTC)