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Could we get a less mime-like image perhaps? Sherurcij 06:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Is there some reason the word Shador redirects here? Is that a common misspelling of this garment or something? I had no idea that my intarweb name had any meaning whatsoever.
Shador5529
15:21, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The jilbab is worn over the chador? AxelBoldt 22:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
No, so far as I know it's either chador or manteau, but not both. Jilbab is associated with Sunni Salafis, not Shi'a. Someone who was confused wrote that.
I added some material about traditional and modern dress for which I could give no references. I should look them up, and perhaps I'll have time later. I don't have any doubt that what I added is true, but it does need refs. Pictures would also be good. For the traditional costume, I can probably find some old Victorian engravings which would be public domain now. Modern pictures ... well, perhaps some Iranians could help. Zora 05:04, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, what I wrote should make it clear that some women wear chador and some women wear scarf and manteau. Perhaps you read that too quickly?
As for the claim that only mullahs and religious people objected to the Pahlavi decree -- I don't think that's right. I've read several places that women who were used to the traditional garment were distressed by having to appear improperly clothed in public. I'm not defending the dang chador -- it must be hot as anything -- but I also think that women should be able to wear what they want, whether it's chadors or hot pants.
Hindu women do NOT wear chadors. They cover their heads in temples and in the presence of elders, and they do so with the pallu of their sari, or with the dupatta of their salwar kameez. Some Muslim women in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India burqas, which are not at all the same thing as chadors. Entirely different cut. Your source is completely wrong in the assertions re Hindu women.
As for the statement that chadors and manteaus are pre-Islamic -- that's also unsubstantiated. We know that the upper-class Achaemenids and Sassanids secluded their women, and I've found a picture of a woman with a veil wound tightly around her face. But no chadors.
I've found an 1885 picture of a woman in a chador, and some quotes from Plutarch and El-Guindi. More can be added to the article. Zora 10:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but he describes women being carried in curtained carriages, not chadors. The Achaemenid picture I found, in Tilke, also shows a scarf rather than a chador. Too bad I can't scan and upload that picture, but copyright ...
If you can come up with some actual pictures or quotes of a pre-Islamic chador (specifically, a long semi-circular veil held closed in front -- not just any veil) then I'll of course change my mind. There's one book on the history of Middle Eastern costume I'd like to consult, but it's out of print, rare, and expensive. Not too many resources on ancient Persian women's clothing. Zora 12:05, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Korshid, what you say sounds reasonable. In such a large country as Iran, there must be (and must have been) many different styles of hijab. The problem is finding reliable sources of information. I think I've done what I can in English! There are probably more sources in Persian. What we need is a better history of Iranian women's clothing, of hijab, and PICTURES, more pictures. Old ones and new ones. Can you work on this? Do you know anyone who can? Zora 03:47, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Although the statement is true at home women do typically ware the chador over the regular modest cloths when they have guests over in public outings and in the workplace women who do ware the chadore typically ware a Manteau underneath.
This is the common practice of the Islamic Republic of Iran and many picturial examples can be found on the net.
While it's fine to have a more modern picture of a chador, it wasn't necessary to remove the older one. I moved the older picture to the history section.
I also restored the quote from Plutarch. One editor took extreme umbrage at Plutarch's description of the Achaemenids as barbarous -- thereby showing a scanty knowledge of classical history and the English language. The Greeks, like many other groups, considered all non-Greeks to be uncivilized -- they didn't speak properly, in Greek, but spoke languages that sounded like "bar bar" to the supercilious Greeks. Hence "barbarians." The term "barbarian" was adopted by the Romans and from Latin, made its way into English. The Greeks, of course, would have considered the English just another kind of barbarian. The meaning has changed over time. It has always been pejorative, but now it is different sort of pejorative.
We have the quote from Plutarch because, strange as it may seem, much of what we know about the Achaemenids is from Greek sources. Very very few Achaemenid texts have survived. The Greeks, however, having fought and eventually destroyed the Achaemenids, were intensely interested in them, and much of their writing has survived. Throwing out evidence because you don't like the wording used by a Greek historian of 2000 years ago is bizarre. It is very clear that this is Plutarch's statement, and not WP's belief that the Achaemenids were barbarians. It is very relevant to the topic, which is the segregation of the women of the anderun behind walls or veils. Zora 06:24, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, I can scan some old photos from one of my history books (they're old enough to be public domain) but they're very fuzzy, very bad quality. Zora 09:45, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
What do you think of this picture? Zora 10:29, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, book calls it a chador. The picture is from the time of Nasr-ed-din -- those are court ladies on horseback. The pictures in the book are mostly family photos from the court, and in the pictures women are wearing headscarves but no chador. That's in the house. Outside the house nothing shows but the eyes. The book I have, Crowning Anguish, credits the pictures to Dust 'Ali Khan Mo'ayyer al-Mamalek, Yad-dashtha-'i az zendagi-ye khosusi-e Naser al-Din Shah, Tehran, 1983, so if you can find that book, it may have more pictures.
The history section seems to be more about history of veiling in Iran rather than chador, perhaps that should be sub-sectioned to highlight this? Regards, -- Rayis 10:10, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
if you have seen news from Iraq, you can see that many Iraqi women also wear a black veil that only shows their face and hands, isn´t that chador??? Lithop 22:00, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I too was taken aback by this; is this really a fact or is it a sub-fact of a garment worn throughout much of the Arab work...I have even seen it worn in New York and believe it is worn in Afganistan. I came here looking to refresh my memory about an old L&L postcard. Certainly if Iranian women are among those who wear the garment they they should be added as a list as part of other countries.
By throwing Iraqi into the mix the definition of a the garment is concentrated into a part of the definition where the definition is much more generic (a full body covering garment, perhaps with slits for eyes), or am I confused? Worn in a part of the world where the sun is very bright and concentrated in certain religions. But the lead should be as generic as possible, and we are talking about the lead sentence here. [Rosebush]
Can someone knowledgeable make a stub or redirect for buibui? It's possibly the same garment? See [1]. Stevage 05:34, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
This edit urgently needs evaluation. It introduced a pro-Islamist and anti-Shah POV not previously present in the article, and not supported by the quotes cited. -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 14:20, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
Older revisions of the article have a picture [2] - are people here saying Wikimedia Commons doesn't have one picture of a woman really wearing a bona fide chador? I'm not qualified to assess the precise fashion details myself, but that seems very unlikely. Wnt ( talk) 15:52, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
I've fixed some things in this article which are quite off-target! I am in Iran often and I wear chador, there and overhead abaya here in the USA and am of Persian background and I can tell you, whomeever wrote the last update was a little off target! The chador is worn by all Iranian women regardless of religious background, both sunni and shia women wear it. Its considered a Persian cultural form of hejab so yes, you dont see as many Arab Iranians or Baloochi Iranians wearing it, but some do although most wear their own cultural types of overgarments such as the overhead abaya by the Arab Iranians. Also saying that women in S. tehran wear chador for cultural reasons is a bit presumptive. My family hails from central Iran and there many women wear it for a variety of reaosns...yes some are cultural, others are religious. Its improper to be presumptive! Also before the Revolution most Iranian women of Persian background outside of the upper classes in the cities wore the chador on a daily basis. It did not go away and the revolution did not really revive it as most women wore it in their daily lives. It was really just the upper class, urban women who discarded covering and wore western clothing...again...presumptive. -Madar-e-Ebrahim, Feb 29, 2012, 9am.
About my recent edits:
that pic is not Chador , it is Arabian Chador (i mean Abaa).so i change it. Sonia Sevilla ( talk) 14:25, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 18:52, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Could we get a less mime-like image perhaps? Sherurcij 06:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Is there some reason the word Shador redirects here? Is that a common misspelling of this garment or something? I had no idea that my intarweb name had any meaning whatsoever.
Shador5529
15:21, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The jilbab is worn over the chador? AxelBoldt 22:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
No, so far as I know it's either chador or manteau, but not both. Jilbab is associated with Sunni Salafis, not Shi'a. Someone who was confused wrote that.
I added some material about traditional and modern dress for which I could give no references. I should look them up, and perhaps I'll have time later. I don't have any doubt that what I added is true, but it does need refs. Pictures would also be good. For the traditional costume, I can probably find some old Victorian engravings which would be public domain now. Modern pictures ... well, perhaps some Iranians could help. Zora 05:04, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, what I wrote should make it clear that some women wear chador and some women wear scarf and manteau. Perhaps you read that too quickly?
As for the claim that only mullahs and religious people objected to the Pahlavi decree -- I don't think that's right. I've read several places that women who were used to the traditional garment were distressed by having to appear improperly clothed in public. I'm not defending the dang chador -- it must be hot as anything -- but I also think that women should be able to wear what they want, whether it's chadors or hot pants.
Hindu women do NOT wear chadors. They cover their heads in temples and in the presence of elders, and they do so with the pallu of their sari, or with the dupatta of their salwar kameez. Some Muslim women in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India burqas, which are not at all the same thing as chadors. Entirely different cut. Your source is completely wrong in the assertions re Hindu women.
As for the statement that chadors and manteaus are pre-Islamic -- that's also unsubstantiated. We know that the upper-class Achaemenids and Sassanids secluded their women, and I've found a picture of a woman with a veil wound tightly around her face. But no chadors.
I've found an 1885 picture of a woman in a chador, and some quotes from Plutarch and El-Guindi. More can be added to the article. Zora 10:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but he describes women being carried in curtained carriages, not chadors. The Achaemenid picture I found, in Tilke, also shows a scarf rather than a chador. Too bad I can't scan and upload that picture, but copyright ...
If you can come up with some actual pictures or quotes of a pre-Islamic chador (specifically, a long semi-circular veil held closed in front -- not just any veil) then I'll of course change my mind. There's one book on the history of Middle Eastern costume I'd like to consult, but it's out of print, rare, and expensive. Not too many resources on ancient Persian women's clothing. Zora 12:05, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Korshid, what you say sounds reasonable. In such a large country as Iran, there must be (and must have been) many different styles of hijab. The problem is finding reliable sources of information. I think I've done what I can in English! There are probably more sources in Persian. What we need is a better history of Iranian women's clothing, of hijab, and PICTURES, more pictures. Old ones and new ones. Can you work on this? Do you know anyone who can? Zora 03:47, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Although the statement is true at home women do typically ware the chador over the regular modest cloths when they have guests over in public outings and in the workplace women who do ware the chadore typically ware a Manteau underneath.
This is the common practice of the Islamic Republic of Iran and many picturial examples can be found on the net.
While it's fine to have a more modern picture of a chador, it wasn't necessary to remove the older one. I moved the older picture to the history section.
I also restored the quote from Plutarch. One editor took extreme umbrage at Plutarch's description of the Achaemenids as barbarous -- thereby showing a scanty knowledge of classical history and the English language. The Greeks, like many other groups, considered all non-Greeks to be uncivilized -- they didn't speak properly, in Greek, but spoke languages that sounded like "bar bar" to the supercilious Greeks. Hence "barbarians." The term "barbarian" was adopted by the Romans and from Latin, made its way into English. The Greeks, of course, would have considered the English just another kind of barbarian. The meaning has changed over time. It has always been pejorative, but now it is different sort of pejorative.
We have the quote from Plutarch because, strange as it may seem, much of what we know about the Achaemenids is from Greek sources. Very very few Achaemenid texts have survived. The Greeks, however, having fought and eventually destroyed the Achaemenids, were intensely interested in them, and much of their writing has survived. Throwing out evidence because you don't like the wording used by a Greek historian of 2000 years ago is bizarre. It is very clear that this is Plutarch's statement, and not WP's belief that the Achaemenids were barbarians. It is very relevant to the topic, which is the segregation of the women of the anderun behind walls or veils. Zora 06:24, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, I can scan some old photos from one of my history books (they're old enough to be public domain) but they're very fuzzy, very bad quality. Zora 09:45, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
What do you think of this picture? Zora 10:29, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, book calls it a chador. The picture is from the time of Nasr-ed-din -- those are court ladies on horseback. The pictures in the book are mostly family photos from the court, and in the pictures women are wearing headscarves but no chador. That's in the house. Outside the house nothing shows but the eyes. The book I have, Crowning Anguish, credits the pictures to Dust 'Ali Khan Mo'ayyer al-Mamalek, Yad-dashtha-'i az zendagi-ye khosusi-e Naser al-Din Shah, Tehran, 1983, so if you can find that book, it may have more pictures.
The history section seems to be more about history of veiling in Iran rather than chador, perhaps that should be sub-sectioned to highlight this? Regards, -- Rayis 10:10, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
if you have seen news from Iraq, you can see that many Iraqi women also wear a black veil that only shows their face and hands, isn´t that chador??? Lithop 22:00, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I too was taken aback by this; is this really a fact or is it a sub-fact of a garment worn throughout much of the Arab work...I have even seen it worn in New York and believe it is worn in Afganistan. I came here looking to refresh my memory about an old L&L postcard. Certainly if Iranian women are among those who wear the garment they they should be added as a list as part of other countries.
By throwing Iraqi into the mix the definition of a the garment is concentrated into a part of the definition where the definition is much more generic (a full body covering garment, perhaps with slits for eyes), or am I confused? Worn in a part of the world where the sun is very bright and concentrated in certain religions. But the lead should be as generic as possible, and we are talking about the lead sentence here. [Rosebush]
Can someone knowledgeable make a stub or redirect for buibui? It's possibly the same garment? See [1]. Stevage 05:34, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
This edit urgently needs evaluation. It introduced a pro-Islamist and anti-Shah POV not previously present in the article, and not supported by the quotes cited. -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 14:20, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
Older revisions of the article have a picture [2] - are people here saying Wikimedia Commons doesn't have one picture of a woman really wearing a bona fide chador? I'm not qualified to assess the precise fashion details myself, but that seems very unlikely. Wnt ( talk) 15:52, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
I've fixed some things in this article which are quite off-target! I am in Iran often and I wear chador, there and overhead abaya here in the USA and am of Persian background and I can tell you, whomeever wrote the last update was a little off target! The chador is worn by all Iranian women regardless of religious background, both sunni and shia women wear it. Its considered a Persian cultural form of hejab so yes, you dont see as many Arab Iranians or Baloochi Iranians wearing it, but some do although most wear their own cultural types of overgarments such as the overhead abaya by the Arab Iranians. Also saying that women in S. tehran wear chador for cultural reasons is a bit presumptive. My family hails from central Iran and there many women wear it for a variety of reaosns...yes some are cultural, others are religious. Its improper to be presumptive! Also before the Revolution most Iranian women of Persian background outside of the upper classes in the cities wore the chador on a daily basis. It did not go away and the revolution did not really revive it as most women wore it in their daily lives. It was really just the upper class, urban women who discarded covering and wore western clothing...again...presumptive. -Madar-e-Ebrahim, Feb 29, 2012, 9am.
About my recent edits:
that pic is not Chador , it is Arabian Chador (i mean Abaa).so i change it. Sonia Sevilla ( talk) 14:25, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 18:52, 2 March 2019 (UTC)