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Just curious and think it would be interesting in the article to note if Mr. Millan has ever been bitten by a dog. Just curious. Anyone know? I understand this isn't a message board for fan trivia or blogging and am reserving other questions that are more appropriately asked in that format but I do think this tidbit would be interesting to include in the article if known. Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.133.42.16 ( talk) 14:05, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
He no longer lives in Inglewood.
Queequeg22 ( talk) 12:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
This guy's biography really needs to be condensed and be less personal.
Stoned philosophaster ( talk) 17:30, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
The end of the critics section states that "most of Cesar's followers..." without references or anything. It's all just opinion. I didn't want to remove the whole paragraph without some input...but there is no basis for this paragraph so I don't see why it should stay? Since I'm sure there was no study to see if people that like Cesar Millan have backgrounds in animal behavior and all the other stuff it says I'm sure there is nothing to actually cite...
Puresholtz 05:05, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Removed the folllowing link:
As a source to "In 2005, the National Humane Society Genesis Award Committee presented him with a Special Commendation for his work in rehabilitating sheltered animals." Nowhere on that page does it say anything about Cesar Millan winning a award. In fact, if you search the hsus.org website, there is not one mention of Cesar Millan.
The only source I could find for this award was from the Random House website. All other googling will lead you to the same wording as above, leading one to believe that everyone has used the same source for this information.
Could it be he received the award from a different orginzation? The website posted, hsus.org, is actually called "The Humane Society of The United States", not "The National Humane Society". There are two groups I found which call themselves "The National Humane Society" http://www.humanesocietynational.org/ http://www.nationalhumane.com/ But they don't seem to have a "Genesis Award Committee".
The reference to this "award" is very misleading, especially since the link to Genesis Award points to the HSUS website. The HSUS has not issued Millan any awards (you can view a complete listing of award recipients on the HSUS website. This appears to be another unsubstantiated claim by Millan's PR people. Random House and Malcom Gladwell appear to be repeating what they were told.
I removed the below statement, because this is about the show...not Cesar himself. Seems like it should be on the Dog Whisperer page or a page about the TV rating system, rather than in this article.
"On October 27, 2006, the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants warned the National Geographic Channel that the Dog Whisperer might encourage children to behave unsafely around dogs. The group questions the 'TV_G' rating the show is given. [1]" Whedonrox
Regarding National Humane Society Commendation. I have also tried to locate the specific report without success, but feel that because it is represented by reliable sources (Random House and other reputable/Malcolm Gladwell)that it should be included until disputed/denied by the NHS. I'd like to add a glossary to the menu but not sure how. Tintina 04:40, 19 January 2007 (UTC) Never mind my comments:>) I'm getting in sync! Tintina 04:40, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
The National Humane Society Commendation is also noted on the flap of his book Cesar's Way. Whedonrox 12:30, 25 January 2007
I wasn't sure where to add this comment but as it is a thought that recurs and I believe fundamental to the entry on Cesar Millan, I am posting it on top.
What is the purpose of this entry? Is it meant to be a biography of Cesar Millan as a "celebrity persona" or is it a sideways discussion of his methods in the rehabilitation of dogs?
He is a Dog Whisperer Tintina 04:40, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
On first reading it appears to be a biography. The controversy section however seems to be a little heavy, and one wonders if it may become the highlight of the biography itself.
As Cesar does not call himself a behaviourist why is this even mentioned? He has never implied that he has any certification.
Other than these comments I will assist in editing the content.
Tintina 17:16, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I added a section on Cesar's Methods. The Controversy and Criticism sections refers to critique of his methods, but the article never states exactly what they are.
Also, I added a few articles to the external resources section.
Below is mine..above is not signed
I did some editing in the controversy section. re arranging and clarifying some points. I added a basic description of the opposing points of view from which the controversy stems. Tintina 20:23, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
He just got sued, somebody wanna include that? It's just as notable as being parodied on South Park.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/TV/05/05/tv.us.dogwhisperer.ap/index.html
I think thats trash and should not be included in wikipedia. If you want to include it you should wait to see if this is truth or just someone flinging rumors. LdyDragonfly 18:31, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
.... Biographies of living people should be written responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone. While a strategy of eventualism may apply to other subject areas, badly written biographies of living persons should be stubbed or deleted.
The article should document, in a non-partisan manner, what reliable third party sources have published about the subject and, in some circumstances, what the subject may have published about themselves. The writing style should be neutral, factual, and understated, avoiding both a sympathetic point of view and an advocacy journalism point of view.
What is the intent of Cesar Millan's Biography?
Because something has been published does not necessarily mean it MUST be included. what other published items are there that are not included-plenty I'm sure.
Tintina 22:00, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Keep in mind I like Cesar. It's important, however, to keep the article up to date; it doesn't matter whether or not the lawsuit is justified. It just happened; and this article will state it THAT WAY, just as the CNN article states it that way (it does not claim that the lawsuit is justified).
67.164.209.137
19:21, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
.............. I don't know the a law suit in itself is noteworthy of mention. Anyone can file a lawsuit for any number of reasons. I think it would be more appropriate to wait until the results of that suit are decided. Including it at this point does read as a bit infammatory (even though a suit may have been filed) it implies guilt in the read. I would prefer to err on the side of discretion. Tintina 21:47, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Cesar Millan was born in Culican, Mexico and NOT Mexico City, Mexico. This is clearly stated in his book and on shows he's in. (Sorry if my format is off I'm still a newbie here) LdyDragonfly 02:22, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I removed the reference to him being a "behaviourist" from the opening paragraph. He is not. He does not say he is. It is a misplaced comment.
It begins the biography on a note of "doubt" which is not neutral or understated. It is the criticism from others that refer to him having no certification as such. Tintina 22:19, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Added the line "not certified as an applied animal behavorist" due to the fact he is not.
Text below explains what applied animal behavior is, how one gets certified, and a link to current members. From the Animal Behavior Society website:
What is Applied Animal Behavior? The field of Applied Animal Behavior specializes in the behaviour of companion animals in relation to behavioural problems and training, the behaviour of farm, zoo and laboratory animals (i.e animal management and welfare) and studies of the behaviour of wild animals when these studies are relevant from an applied perspective, (i.e. wildlife management, pest management or nature conservation) as well as methodological studies.
Animal behaviorists are often educated in a variety of disciplines, including psychology biology, zoology or animal science. A professional applied animal behaviorist has demonstrated expertise in theprinciples of animal behavior, in the research methods of animal behavior, in the application of animal behavior principles to applied behavior problems and in the dissemination of knowledge about animal behavior through teaching and research. http://www.animalbehavior.org/ABSAppliedBehavior/
THE ANIMAL BEHAVIOR SOCIETY PROGRAM FOR CERTIFICATION OF APPLIED ANIMAL BEHAVIORISTS
Prepared for the ABS Board of Professional Certification, August, 1990. (Revised Jan 2002)
WHAT IS CERTIFICATION?
The Animal Behavior Society (ABS) is the leading professional organization in North America for
the study of animal behavior. The Society recognizes that animal-oriented groups or agencies,
businesses, and the general public seek professional advice about the animal behavior in general or
about behavioral problems of animals. Certification is the means by which the ABS demonstrates to the
public that certain individuals meet the minimum standards of education, experience and ethics required
of a professional applied animal behaviorist as set forth by the Society.
Animal behaviorists can be educated in a variety of disciplines, including psychology biology,
zoology or animal science. A professional applied animal behaviorist has demonstrated expertise in the
principles of animal behavior, in the research methods of animal behavior, in the application of animal
behavior principles to applied behavior problems and in the dissemination of knowledge about animal
behavior through teaching and research.
Certification constitutes recognition by the Animal Behavior Society that, to its best knowledge,
the certificant meets the educational, experiental and ethical standards required by the Society for
professional applied animal behaviorists. Certification does not constitute a guarantee that the applicant
meets a specific standard of competence or possesses specific knowledge.
WHO SHOULD BE CERTIFIED?
Certification is beneficial to anyone who consults with the public or with other professionals about
the applications of animal behavior knowledge or about specific behavioral problems of animals.
Examples are persons working in a clinical animal behavior setting (i.e., involving the diagnosis and
treatment of animal behavior problems), and those consulting with agricultural interests, zoos, research
institutions or governmental agencies about the behavior or behavior problems of wild or domestic
animals. By consulting with a certified professional applied animal behaviorist, the client can be assured
of the qualifications of the consultant.
WHAT ARE THE LEVELS OF PROFESSIONAL CERTIFICATION?
There are two levels of certification: Associate Applied Animal Behaviorist and Certified Applied
Animal Behaviorist. The Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist category has more rigorous educational and
experiental requirements. Requirements for both are listed below.
WHAT ARE THE REQUIREMENTS FOR CERTIFICATION?
Associate Applied Animal Behaviorist
The successful applicant must meet requirements of education, experience and endorsement to
become certified as an Associate Applied Animal Behaviorist. Educational requirements include a
Master's Degree from an accredited college or university in a biological or behavioral science with an
emphasis in animal behavior. The degree should include a research based thesis. Undergraduate and/or
graduate coursework must include 21 semester credits in behavioral science courses
including 6 semester credits in ethology, animal behavior and/or
comparative psychology and 6 semester credits in animal learning, conditioning and or animal
psychology (e.g., experimental psychology).
Experiential requirements include a minimum of two years of professional experience in applied
animal behavior. The applicant must demonstrate the ability to perform independently and
professionally in applied animal behavior. Examples include performing independent studies, data
analysis, formulation and testing of hypotheses and professional writing. Also required is evidence of
significant experience working interactively with a particular species (such as as a researcher, research
assistant, or intern working with a certified applied animal behaviorist) prior to working independently
with the species in a clinical animal behavior setting.
Endorsement requirements include the provision of a minimum of three letters of recommendation
from regular ABS members affirming the applicant's professional experience in the areas listed above.
Only two of these letters may come from the same institution.
Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist
Educational and experiental requirements include a doctoral degree from an accredited college or
university in a biological or behavioral science with an emphasis on animal behavior, including five years
of professional experience, or a doctorate from an accredited college or university in veterinary medicine
plus two years in a university-approved residency in animal behavior and three additional years of
professional experience in applied animal behavior. Any of these degrees must include the same
coursework requirements as the Associate Applied Animal Behaviorist. The successful applicant must
also demonstrate a thorough knowledge of the literature, scientific principles and principles of animal
behavior, demonstrate original contributions or original interpretations of animal behavior information
and show evidence of significant experience working interactively with a particular species as a
researcher, research assistant or intern with a Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist prior to working
independently with the species in a clinical animal behavior setting.
Endorsement requirements are identical to those of the Associate Applied Animal Behaviorist.
Exceptions to any of the above requirements will be considered by the Board of Professional
Certification upon receipt of a written statement explaining why and how the intent of the educational
and experiential requirements are satisfied.
http://www.animalbehavior.org/Applied/Pamph3N-Jan2002.htm
Current Members:
http://www.animalbehavior.org/Applied/CAAB_directory.html
I'm still getting the hang of this..forgive
I agree with the below. I changed the opening paragraph-omitting the word and reference to not being certified for something he doesn't describe himself as in the first place. Tintina 22:30, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I felt this needed to be stepped down in significance. Two reasons. First, having it right at the start set the wrong tone, as if somehow not being certified made him a dubious character or unqualified in some way. Secondly, looking over the Animal Behavior Society web site, they are largely concerned with scientific studies of animal behaviour. They have nothing to do with domestic animal training or therapy except where an academic might be studying these things for scientific reasons. So Millan not being a member of ABS is meaningless, because he wouldn't need to be a member, any more than he would need to be a member of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons.
Cheers, Neale Neale Monks 08:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Neale,
The reason I added "Not a Certified Animal Behavorist" in the first paragraph is to offset the vague term "dog behaviorst" in the first sentence. Animal Behavior is a science, and Mr. Millan is being dubious when he (or anyone else) tries to insinuate that he has any formal training. Members of the Animal Behavior Society are actually animal behavorists and actually DO work with domestic pets such as cats and dogs. That's what "applied" means in the title "Cerified APPLIED Animal Behavorist." From their website:
Who should be Certified?
Certification is beneficial to anyone who consults with the public or with other professionals about the applications of animal behavior knowledge or about specific behavioral problems of animals.
Examples are persons working in a clinical animal behavior setting (i.e., involving the diagnosis and treatment of animal behavior problems), and those consulting with agricultural interests, zoos, research institutions or governmental agencies about the behavior or behavior problems of wild or domestic animals. By consulting with a certified professional applied animal behaviorist, the client can be assured of the qualifications of the consultant.
They really are the only serious originzation when it comes to diagnosing and treating pet behavior problems. To become certified, you must have extentsive education, experience and publish original research studies.(see qualifications in my first post)
I can call myself a doctor, astronaunt, or sea captain - that does not make me one.
As you addded, Mr. Millan is a member of "The International Association of Canine Professionals", which according to the first page on its website: (is) For DOG TRAINERS; GROOMERS; KENNEL OWNERS; VETERINARIANS; PET SITTERS; DOG HANDLERS; RETAILERS; PET FIRST AID INSTRUCTORS; BOUNDARY FENCE INSTALLERS & ALL PROFESSIONALS WITHIN THE DOG WORLD
Also from their site: What is the definition of a Canine Professional for the IACP? A Canine Professional is an individual pursuing or engaged in an occupation, vocation, or activity related to dogs. Examples: Dog Trainer, Veterinarian, Groomer, Kennel Manager, etc. Anyone in the field of dogs can become a member.
Who can Join? Anyone who qualifies as a Canine Professional. There are three main levels of membership; PROFESSIONAL Member, ASSOCIATE Member, and AFFILIATE Member. These categories allow the IACP the opportunity to welcome all persons, from the student or hobbyist to the owner of a canine-related business. As a part of our networking and educational opportunities, we encourage all those involved in the canine industry to join our organization. For more information on the membership levels and benefits, visit our Membership Section http://www.dogpro.org/index.php?pageID=29
To put this organization before ABS implies that one is equal to the other. They are not. Cleaned it up a bit to make it more clear.
Took out the following under "Criticism and Controversy":
However, it should be noted that membership of this society does not infer profesional competance or ability and non memership is not a sign of anything other than choice. Though Cesar has come under criticism many so called academic behaviourists find it hard to agree on any number of the theories that abound in this area, dominance being just one. In the end it is the client who is responsible for chosing the behaviourist and many go to experienced trainers who have developed as behavioural consultants over many years of working and study. It is a sad fact that a number of academic behaviourist do not own dogs and have never done so, some consider it unimportant to see or work with the animal directly, as they feel the prognosis and treatment can be provided remotely. Most dog owners need and in fact want direct help and behaviourists like Cesar provide this irrespective of academic snobbery.'
..and changed Mr. Millan to not being a "member" of ABS to not being "certfied". It is true that anyone can be a member of ABS (just like anyone can be a member of a historical society)- but obviously the distinction here is certification. Mr. Millan cannot be certified, as he so far lacks the proper education.
The statement "It is a sad fact that a number of academic behaviourist do not own dogs and have never done so, some consider it unimportant to see or work with the animal directly, as they feel the prognosis and treatment can be provided remotely" is not factual. The job of Certified Animal Behaviorists is to work directly with pets.
The statement "Most dog owners need and in fact want direct help and behaviourists like Cesar provide this irrespective of academic snobbery."'' is biased opinion.
I don't think there would be that much controversey if Cesar Millan just referred to himself as a "Dog Trainer". What's wrong with that? It's when he starts using language like "Dog Psychology Center" and "behaviorist" that he seems to attach a unearned credibility to himself.
............................
The controversy is over his methods and the two main camps of thought. He's NOT a trainer, he works from a behavioural point of view As far as I know he does not refer to himself as a behaviourist. Others have tagged that on him and subsequently it used as a criticism
Tintina 22:04, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Cesar refers to himself as a dog behavior expert - not a trainer or a behaviorist.
THIS IS IMPORTANT:
Cesar has never referred to himself as an "Animal Behaviorist."
He has no college degrees and makes no bones about that, no pun intended. On the show, we call him a "Dog Behavior Expert" for that very reason. He does not call himself a "dog trainer" because training has traditionally been associated with teaching a dog to follow commands, such as "sit, stay, come, heel." Cesar rehabiliates dogs with behavior problems, and helps owners understand how to see the world through their dogs' eyes, which he interprets as "dog psychology."
As for the lawsuit issues, will they be updated with future information as it becomes available? Such as the fact that neither Flody Suarez nor his dog were ever clients of Cesar's - but were clients of another,less experienced trainer who was "borrowing" the facility that day? Seems a pertinent fact, no?
Remember, anyone can file any lawsuit at any time. Does this then mean that every lawsuit ever filed against Wikipedia subjects should be included in their pages? If so, better get editing, guys.
- -- 64.12.116.71 15:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)Melissa Jo Peltier - Co-Executive Producer, Dog Whisperer with Cesar Millan and his co-author on Cesar's Way.
In response to the above concern by an anonymous user claiming to be the producer for Millan's show, I investigated the "dog behaviorist" title claim. However, it seems pretty clear that the title is referenced. For example, here, on the National Geographic page promoting the show, Millan is listed as "dog-behaviorist-to-the-stars" [3]. And at this page, tmz.com, he is again listed as a dog "behaviorist". [4] What do other editors think? Should we change his title on the bio page? -- Elonka 21:04, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I have to say that add that if someone is a programmer and does not have any college degrees in programming, can you say that he is not a programmer? I am probably a better programmer than 80% of programmers out there who have been college educated because I started programming when I was 9 and have been doing it my whole life. I have no college degrees in computer anything but I can guarantee you if something is wrong with your computer regardless of OS I can fix it. Same rules apply for Cesar and his expertise. Expertise does NOT require a college degree or certification to be called expertise. It merely needs to exist. Now if he claimed he was a "certified" dog behavior expert, that would be a different story. 198.200.181.206 ( talk) 19:10, 14 October 2009 (UTC) - (user aqhillie - i'm too lazy to login)
Elonka has stated that credible websites indeed consider Cesar Millan to be a "dog behaviourist"; however, I don't believe National Geographic.com or TMZ.com were being as cautious as we are in designating who or what is a dog behaviourist; when National Geographic made the statement; "dog behaviourist to the stars" (something like that); the author of that line may not have been cautious or aware of the meaning being that term. Also, I wouldn't consider TMZ.com to be a very verifiable source.
However, the possibility that the Producer of The Dog Whisperer does not call Cesar Millan a "dog behaviourist" does not mean he isn't one; it just means it's his/her belief. Also, even if Cesar Millan himself calls himself a dog behaviour expert and not a "dog behaviourist", without the reasons for it (or if the reasons don't "work"), it STILL doesn't mean Cesar Millan isn't a dog-behaviourist. It could be that Cesar Millan is unaware of the qualifiers, or rather, the lack of qualifiers to identify oneself as a dog-behaviourist (or that he's playing it safe). It could also be that the Producer of the show wants to avoid any complications; so s/he would rather call Millan a dog-behaviour-expert. It STILL does not mean he isn't one. If Steven Spielberg stated that he wasn't a film-director; the Wikipedia article on him would still call him a film-director, because the definitions would match with his occupation. THe only thing that would change in the article is perhaps having a smaller paragraph stating that Spielberg doesn't view himself as a film-director (he does; I'm just speaking hypothetically).
I'm not sure what Cesar Millan should be designated in this article. It's possible to have a short statement saying that neither Cesar Millan nor his Producers believe/call him a dog-behaviourist (and give possible reasons why they do this). But I think it's best to still refer to him as a behaviourist; but to note as an aside that he has no college degree; but also, that the dog-behaviorist title does not require a degree -- unlike the position of being a Doctor, for example (which requires permission from the government).
So, I think the key is to try to find a verifiable source which helps define what it means to be a "dog behaviourist"; not to try and find if "credible" sources call Cesar Millan a dog behaviourist. Both may contradict; but there's only one truth.
For the exec. producer of the show: as long as there is a credible source (an article for example; because unfortunately, it is hard to verify whether or not your are indeed the producer of the show) stating that Cesar was not associated with the dog or it's owner, than it could be included in this Wikipedia entry. I for one believe you, but this just isn't how Wikipedia handles things (and I agree with this policy); so I'd advise you to issue a statement to a credible news source saying that Millan was not associated with the dog or owner, and that another behaviourist was. It seems that there are no current sources that help to clarify this. National Geographic's official statement only vaguely says that Cesar Millan was not there at the time of the incident. Oh, and I'd like to say that I enjoyed your book, and am also a big fan of the show.
24.23.51.27
05:48, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
So, I've just read the statement released by the AHS; asking the National Geographic channel to stop airing these episodes; and accusing Millan of inhumane practice. What I don't think AHS realizes is that most or a lot of these dogs that Millan is hired to "fix" are "red zone" cases; or cases that are beyond repair. In any normal circumstance, a professional trainer (possibly one associated with the AHS) would not be able to help improve the dog and fix the problems; and in the case of an aggressive one, they would simply recommend that it be put down. The site states that AHS believes there are other options to euthanizing a dog... and yet they seek to shut down Cesar Millan? When after many trained certified professionals have tried to re-balance a dog and have failed, Cesar Millan was always the person who was up to the task. If it wasn't for his "harsh" or "inhumane" techniques; than the dogs probably would have continued to act out aggressively and attack people -- and possibly be euthanized. When Millan says that "no dog needs to be euthanized", that "all dogs can change"; he means it. Even if it means using a choke collar, or a, god forbid, shock-collar (although with his skills, I think this is a little excessive). And placing a dog onto the ground (otherwise known as the Alpha roll) is too excessive? Have the AHS ever heard of the phrase, "drastic times call for drastic measures"? When a dog is recommended for death roll by the top trainers and its only hope is Cesar Millan, you better hope he does whatever he can to save that dog's life. The AHS needs to stop beeing pansies and realize that sometimes, you just need to be harsh. The end result is well worth it in my opinion. 24.23.51.27 13:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Can someone clarify which is correct here? If we're talking playing the part of the alpha male, then presumably this should be "alpha rôle". But if the roll in question is a body rolling over, then alpha roll. I do not know, but noticed that this was the latest correction made (see here [6]. Cheers, Neale Neale Monks 14:12, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
It seems like whoever added this particular criticism did it because of personal reasons -- not because it is a controversial or heavilly criticised interview (there is no notability), but because the person who added this criticism just disagreed with a lot of what Cesar said. So because there is no notability, I'm going to remove it (and possibly other criticisms if I see fit). For a criticism to be included in an article, it's gotta be a common one.
Here is what was posted, "On October 22, 2006, Cesar Millan appeared on Pet Central with Steve Dale. Millan refused to appear live or take calls from listeners, so the interview was recorded on October 21. When questioned where he learned about dominance in "packs," Millan responded that, in addition to watching animals as a child, he learned by watching shows on television about elephants. Unable to clarify his definition of "calm-assertive," Millan also agreed that his methods are not replicable and his show should not be considered a "how-to." [7] " Here's what one should understand from this interview: the interviewer is clearly unfamiliar with a lot of what Cesar does (and is in disagreement with his techniques). Whoever listed this interview sensed that this was a great opportunity to criticize Millan, and add it to this article. The nitpicking and odd biased POV in the "critcism" is just bizzare -- I listened through most of the same interview, and saw it from a different standpoint, hopefully a more objective one.
First, where was it stated in the interview that Millan refused to appear live or to take calls from listeners? And in a community where everyone will most likely question Millan or go out to disprove his techniques, how can you really blame him? I agree that if I was in his shoes, I'd try and be more bold and attempt to squash some of these criticisms (because we all know -- the whole reason Steve Dale wants Millan to have a "conversation" with other "professionals" is to disprove him). But it's hard to blame him.
And look at the bias behind the statement; "...he learned by watching shows on television about elephants". I did not come accross this statement in the interview myself, but notice how this is meant to be a hidden criticism -- the statement fails to explain itself, but whoever included this in this interview obviously wanted people to see that he learned by "watching elephants" and that he has not formal education. It was included without explanation, and simply as a way to ridicule him. It's like a run-on sentence even; just a little factoid which makese sense being there. The whole section is stated in a way that attempts to be neutral, but fails miserably at it. Millan wasn't "unable to clarify what he means by calm-assertive", this can be very subjective. One can view it as Neil being unable to understand, or Millan having bad English (he's not very good at explaining himself). But whoever wrote that tried to imply that he was under pressure, that he couldn't back himself up when interrogated, that he's a crook, etc. These statements are not objective. Whoever listened to the interview listened with a biased POV and posted it as so. I'm removing it. 24.23.51.27 23:20, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
There are a lot of article with a criticism section that also have a Response to Criticism section, yet this article doesn't. Responses, if common or notable responses, should be included after criticisms which come in the form of viewpoints -- the trivia (such as lawsuits) shouldn't be responded to (or at least, I haven't seen this done before). There are definately articles out there which praise Millan instead of bashing him -- just the other day I came accross a positive article which was meant as a response to this current trend of Millan-criticism. 24.23.51.27 00:08, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
After reviewing guidelines I feel that Criticism and Controversy section should be changed to a simple Critics:
Wiki Guidelines:Excerpts:
Wikipedia has a neutral point of view, which means we strive for articles that advocate no single point of view. Sometimes this requires representing multiple points of view; presenting each point of view accurately; providing context for any given point of view, so that readers understand whose view the point represents; and presenting no one point of view as "the truth" or "the best view". It means citing verifiable, authoritative sources whenever possible, especially on controversial topics. When a conflict arises as to which version is the most neutral, declare a cool-down period and tag the article as disputed; hammer out details on the talk page and follow dispute resolution. Describe the controversy
An article about a controversial person or group should accurately describe their views, no matter how misguided or repugnant. Remember to ask the question, "How can this controversy best be described?" It is not our job to edit Wikipedia so that it reflects our own idiosyncratic views and then defend those edits against all comers; it is our job to be fair to all sides of a controversy.
This has been inserted and will be expanded and integrated.
Please be clear that the Wikipedia neutrality policy certainly does not state, or imply, that we must "give equal validity" to minority views in a controversyBold text
It's difficult to establish if Positive Only viewpoints, although popular, are the generally accepted dog training standard within the industry. How is that measured? Although there is a distinct "following" for this viewpoint, that does not necessarily make it the standard or most widely accepted one, in spite of the fact that many involved may have degrees or be published.
Main Entry: 1par·ti·san
Variant(s): also par·ti·zan /'pär-t&-z&n, -s&n, -"zan, chiefly British "pär-t&-'zan/
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French partisan, from north Italian dialect partian, from part part, party, from Latin part-, pars part
1 : a firm adherent to a party , faction, cause, or person; especially : one exhibiting blind, prejudiced, and unreasoning allegianceBold text
Positive Only trainers/behaviourists may represent partisan points of view. The description alone may convey this. It appears obvious from statements by Cesar Millan-who advocates seeking other professional help-of no specific viewpoint that he has a wide perspective on training.
Information available solely on partisan websites or in obscure newspapers should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all. Information found in self-published books, newspapers, or websites/blogs should never be used, unless written by the subject (see below). Self explanatory.
'The views of critics should be represented if their views are relevant to the subject's notability and are based on reliable sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to side with the critics' material. Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one.''''Bold text' If the criticism represents the views of a tiny minority, it has no place in the article.
''Italic text
''When writing an article on most topics in Wikipedia, simple declarations of fact and received opinion do not need to be sourced; indeed, it would be cumbersome to burden a writer with the onus of providing documentary proof for every assertion.
However, when dealing with potentially contentious topics, such as in the field of religion or current affairs, a lot more care has to be taken. The more at variance from commonly accepted notions an assertion is, the more rigorously it should be documented. Keep the following things in mind:
[edit] Be careful with weasel words
The term "weasel words" refers to expressions such as "is claimed", "is thought to be", and "is alleged." While these may be legitimate rhetorical devices, they should be carefully scrutinized to ensure that they are not used to insert hidden bias, since claimed implies that the claim may not be true and that there is some reason to doubt it. For example:
* ...is widely thought to be the work of... (good) * ...who claimed they were forced from their homes... (bad--It's quite possible the people described were forced from their homes. )
comments regarding below: The lines removed apply according to the guidelines above. There is nothing untrue in the statement. It is the "partisan" Positive Only viewpoint that disputes this. In addition to "pet dog" trainers and owners there are hundreds of trainers and owners involved in herding, protection work, hunting, formal obedience and other specialized fields.
What is the industry mainstream standard? My background and experience tell me it is not Positive Only.
This faction may be more active and outspoken and receive more media coverage. Tintina 18:59, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Removed the lines: "For the most part, Cesar Millan's methods have been welcomed by the professional dog training and dog behaviour community. His support base includes various dog trainers, rescue groups, veterinarians, and other dog-related organizations and professionals."
Reason: The following paragraph shows this not to be true by citing 4 different experts in the " professional dog training and dog behaviour community." I moved the two supporters of Millan the poster cited (without sources) further down in the section as they seem to be in the minority.
Removed sections referencing "purely positive" and "positive only" trainers as being the only critics of Millan's techniques, as this is simply untrue and highly misleading. And on 1/22/07 ONCE AGAIN removed the reference to operant conditioning methods being popularized by Karen Pryor through the use of clicker training. Positive reinforcement methods were, in fact, popularized by Ian Dunbar and not through the use of clicker training. Clicker training is ONE TYPE of positive training, and not all positive training falls under clicker training.
It would be really nice if you would sign your posts:>)and perhaps even create an identity so that your commitment to a NPOV and this article could be determined.
I will DILIGENTLY watch and edit this article to maintain a NPOV and other Wiki guidelines and policy. Typically in a discussion of differing POV the positive is expressed first and the detraction second. As per wiki guidelines:IF anything, the article should reflect positive RATHER than negative. This is a living person BIOGRAPHY and a news outlet.
The media may focus on controversy over a celebrity. It obviously sells more papers, mags when that is the case. That is not an indication that they are the majority or mainstream and I will argue the point that primarily PO are not the main detractors. This should especially be adhered to in a Biography of living person.
I would think that the show being in its third season and his book reaching bestseller status would be an "indication" of mainstream thought and the overall opinion and reception is positive..
Let's keep this in perspective.
Ian Dunbar may have initiated this but I believe Karen Pryor "popularized it, with Don't Shoot the Dog.
Initiation and popularization are two distinct processes.
The PO are the MAIN critics. clear identification of what rates as notable should be followed. Jean Donaldson is a prime example of PO critic. Tintina 22:17, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Obviously this is still a work in progress and for my part I intend to continue on the intro.condensing some info and adding other. The intro should be a synopsis of the entire article and that is what I am aiming for.
in line with BLP guidelines, what is noteworthy today may not be noteworthy 5 or 10 years from now.
I think the controversy section must be handled in an extremely neutral way, criticisms from opponents can of course be included..with the "weasel word" caveat and attention to partisan critics.
Rather than extracting "hot" phrases, quotes should remain intact. As for People Magazine..it is a Celebrity gossip magazine.
Other comments: Cesar Millan's primary role or profession at this time is working with dogs. Where he goes from here is anyone's guess, but that is main contribution at present.
Although I am a new contributor, I have taken the time to log in and identify myself.I have, and still am familiarizing myself on the guidelines and policies. I ask politely that those who only pop in without a commitment, please do not revert or change editing in progress without comment.
It may seem that I have done the same, but I have not. I have created an account and although initially didn't recognize the comment area, now try to use it diligently.
The other question I have is source for the other BIO information, Early childhood etc.
Has it been taken directly from Cesar's book?
Tintina 23:40, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
the controversy section as it stands seems heavy to me. I am going to ask for a Wiki review of this article for opinion on it. Tintina!
I'll post my question and response as I don't know if it can be accurately linked.
I believe this is the core of maintaining a NPOV on Cesar Millan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesar_Millan
I have posted a link below, if you are reading and responding to this, you might the lower article first.
"essentially contested concept is one where there is widespread agreement on an abstract core notion itself (e.g., "fairness"), whilst there is endless argument about what might be the best instantiation, or realization of that notion.[4]Some of the notability of this person revolves around this issue. (controversy) He is in a profession of diverse opinions. He has reached celebrity status.
Although I have internet articles that support that this is indeed the case, there is no published media that describes the issue itself. Controversy is not over a fundamental issue but how that issue should be treated or resolved. The scope of the discussion is a topic in itself and perhaps that is the best way to handle it..if I can think of a title..other than Dog Training (which has been transwikied to wikibooks, prematurely in my mind.)Can I use internet articles that describe the controversy (essentially contested concept)as there is no other source material that does (that I know of)and I have been researching this for some time (years) prior to editing this article.
I'll provide a link to an overview which I feel reflects this accurately. http://www.puppywishes.com/1601-puppies/Cesar%20Millan%20Vs%20Jean%20Donaldson.html
I feel that any controversy around him should be explained and placed in its proper context. I attempted to do this but an anon user reverted and changed my edit.There is no current discussion other than my own comments.
I would like to proceed with cleaning up this article, but I'm not clear on how to handle it.
Thank you Tintina 05:42, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
there is no published media that describes the issue itself - then the controversy (issue) is NOT notable and anything you do to describe or summarize it is a violation of WP:NOR.
As to the larger issue of "cleaning up" the article, you should follow Wikipedia:Resolving disputes, which lays out the process, starting with informal discussions (talk page) and up through Arbitration Committee action. It's exceptionally rare, of course, for the latter to be needed. Please (a) follow Wikipedia policies and guidelines - for example, WP:RS with respect what sources are acceptable, and WP:NOR, and (b) abide by what the majority of other editors believe should be done (or not), because no single editor is infallible. -- John Broughton | (♫♫) 00:26, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Of course there may in fact be source material on the ISSUE itself that I have not come across or am aware of.
I feel like I'm talking to myself here, but am documenting my thoughts anyway.
Until such time as this material related to contention on the issue (not comments from critics alone) I feel that critics should be noted as such without mention of "controversy" in the article itself. There are many references to such a controversy. As per John Broughton's comments above until reliable source material is provided it does meet Notability standards for inclusion as such, thus Controversy heading renamed as Critics.
Tintina 23:00, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Reverted page blank vandal noted as 206.111.238.34 may have accidentally blanked page or not known how to revert. Actual vandal is 206.107.104.93 has been reported and has several warnings on user page.
2 minor edits were reverted.
see separate discussion on OR pending —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tintina ( talk • contribs) 22:24, 24 January 2007 (UTC). yep thanks, I was distracted for a moment Tintina 22:35, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
How does one even start to fix this and is it even worth it?
Tintina,
All internet snarkiness aside, you need to calm down. I am not saying this to belittle or to condescend, but your edits are boardering on the hysterical. Please, when editing, look at the format of other bios on wiki to see how they flow. You seem to be in such a passionate defense of Mr. Millan, that you want to push or cut down anything you perceive as negative. He is controversial. The previous edits had a good balance of both the "positive" and "negative". Now we have a compleletley irrevelent list of EVERY time he has been on TV, a section called "Philantophy" which talks about his wife, and every other source link seems to lead to Cesar Millan's site.
As it stands now, the article looks like a poorly written advertisement for Mr. Millan's Dog Centers.
"above by anon user"
Hello,anon commenter, If you review the history you will see that I have not contributed to the bulk of the article. As this is a BIOGRAPHY of Cesar Millan, obviously he is the subject, the controversy is not the subject.
Please keep in mind the article is "in progress" and takes time and effort to rework.
I did not make the lists or philanthropy sections. Nor did I add the links to his site.
As for positive/negative I am following the wiki policy and guidelines on BLP and take the time to ask questions regarding such at the Village Pump. If you read through the discussion, explanations are provided. Any further constructive comments are welcome. Tintina 17:55, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
You added a parargraph that makes it seem that "dog whispering" is an actual profession and not some marketing term made up by Cesar Millan's manager and now exploited by one of your cited references -samthedogtrainer.com. To try to make this credible, you created a seperate article titled "dog whispering" where you just cut and pasted one paragraph from samthedogtrainer.com.
I was going to edit this entry, but I'm too busy finishing my book "The Cat Whisperer". It's a follow up to "The Fish Whisperer". My next book will be called "The Open Heart Surgery Whisperer", in which I take a fresh new approach to whispering.
When the wikis are written about me, I know I can count on you Tintina to help me strech reality just a bit to fit my needs! You can have three whole new articles to make! Maybe an entire sub-catergory of just all kinds of whisperers!
Yes, Dog Whispering IS a profession and Cesar Millan was not the first dog whisperer. Paul Owens and Jan Fennel are others who were practicing this profession well before Cesar's show. There are others, less well known.
In 1998 The Horse Whisperer was a movie that came out starring Robert Redford. I believe it loosely followed the life of Monty Roberts, a very well known Horse Whisperer. Tintina 02:25, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
On Cesar's offical MySpace page, his astrological sign in given as Virgo. A May 12th birth date as listed on the Wiki bio would makes him incorrectly a Taurus. I doubt Cesar would incorrectly state his own astrological sign on his official site. http://www.myspace.com/cesarmillan —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.62.95.95 ( talk) 04:13, 19 February 2007 (UTC).
Gotta Love Cesar Millan!:]
He is making a difference on how people treat their dogs and puppies! Keep up the fantastic work!
The SPCA should really look at themselves before criticizing Millan's methods. I've seen an episode which documents what they do on Animal Planet, and there was a case where there were maybe 100+ feral cats living in an abandoned home. The SPCA went in there, took all the cats out, and because they were unable to adopt them all out (maybe because of lack of interest from outsiders, or due to financial issues), they decided to "humanely" euthanize most if not all of the cats. Might as well have left the cats to live on their own in this abandoned home. No one seemed to mind except he SPCA. Almost as bad as the Chinese government taking countless (POSSIBLY diseased) dogs right from their owners on the streets and beating them dead (right in front of them). Almost as bad as PETA. 24.23.51.27 23:14, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I have to say I 100% agree on this, although I'm coming from an angle of not necessarily the SPCA who have criticisms of him, but shelters and rescues who won't even try to rehabilitate most aggressive dogs because they erroneously believe that it simply cannot be done. How many dogs are dying because they're living in ignorance of what is possible, then they have the nerve to say that Cesar is abusive? If more people learned Cesar's methods less dogs would die in shelters. That's why the Millan foundation exists, and it isn't just with dogs. There's so much bad stuff that happens in this world because people simply do not know any better, and God forbid anyone tell them that they're wrong. - Aqhillie ( talk) 18:48, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
In Spanish, the "ll" is pronounced like "y" in English. So I wonder if he has simply adopted an anglicized version of his last name, so that it is pronounced "Mee-LAHN" instead of "Mee-YAHN". It's a small point, but it is worth clarifying if some source can be found about it. Though I doubt that, almost nothing else in this article is sourced... Grand master ka 01:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
This name is mentioned in the "Media Fame" section, but there's no explanation of who he is. I intend to delete the mention in another week unless someone else provides at least a few words of explanation. HiramShadraski 17:22, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Why is the category "LGBT People from Mexico" attached to this article? There's no mention of Millan being gay; in fact, his wife is mentioned in a couple of places. I intend to delete this category link in another week unless someone can show me why I should not. HiramShadraski 17:22, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I think we have to post all the pros and cons of the subject, in this case, Cesar Millan. If you post only the critics part, you are misguiding people to a wrong conclusion about him, so, is like manipulating the article. Is because of this that I want to post a prises part on the article (or delete the critics one). I don't have any interest in making Cesar look more atractive, since I'm from Spain and don't have any link with him, but I think we have to try to make articles look neutral.
--
Emongeca7 (
talk)
10:44, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't think we have to go to a dispute for this matter, but with the "critics" part alone, you know the article is very biased. Regards -- Emongeca7 ( talk) 15:31, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I saw a show recently where he mentioned his spirituality, but he was vague. Does anyone know if he's religious and if so what religion? Thanks. Alexwoods ( talk) 01:43, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a soapbox to criticize groups, individuals, behaviors or correction techniques you don't agree with.
Factual statements about the criticisms of Millan are consistent with Wikipedia guidelines. Opinions, however, are not. As such, "Millan's technique of using a choke collar is outdated and outrageous." is an opinion, even if it is held by an authority. "Millan has been criticized by Mr. Authority for his use of choke collars." is a factual statement that includes no weasel words or opinions.
I deleted all value judgements and opinions, even if they were part of a quote from an authority. Because the debate is relevant, I left the facts. -- Thesoxlost ( talk) 01:21, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
The page was recently edited to state that Millan is a "behavioralist." It was stated that a trainer trains dogs to do tricks; a behavioralist teaches the owners. 1. Behavioralism is a school of political science. Perhaps it has been used in the context of animal behavior, but not widely. This is not a good description of Cesar. 2. Behaviorism is an outdated school of psychology that argues that we should be studying the concrete, measurable aspects of psychology: behavior; and that internal, unobservable or introspective latent variables can not be studied scientifically. Behaviorism was replaced by cognitive psychology which allows for the study of internal, directly unobservable states (e.g., emotions, thoughts). The Animal Behavior Society uses Behaviorism in this sense. For instance, see this book written by ABS certified behaviorist: http://www.howdogslearn.com/. This is also not a good description of Cesar. 3. Animal Behaviorist also refers to an animal behavior specialist. Some have academic degrees ( http://www.petbehaviorist.com/pages/YODY.html) and no certification. There are a number of certifications, and they do not recognize each other. There is no objective standard, as there is for lawyers or medical doctors. 4. You do not need to be a member of APA in order to be a psychologist (in America). Many psychologists are not. You don't need to be recognized by a group in order to be a psychologist or animal psychologist or dog trainer. 5. Calling yourself a psychologist does not imply that you are a member of the APA. Nor does claiming that your a dog behaviorist imply that you are a member of any one of the numerous animal behaviorist certificate programs. Clearly, you aren't an astronaut just by saying you are; but you don't have to be certified by NASA in order to be one. 6. Dog training, according to the wikipedia article, includes obedience training, dog sport training and dog-owner training. It does not mean that you only teach a dog to heel. 7. Behaviorism, as a subfield of psychology, has a residual influence in psychology, but the term "behavorism" is now commonly used in a derogatory sense--along the same lines as phrenology--refering to psychological theory or psychologist that is comically behind the times. It really isn't an important honorific. Looking at the ABS list of "Animal Behavior" programs in the U.S., notice that they are all "Biological Science Department" or "Behavioral and Cognitive Psychology" departments. Behaviorism is dead.
-- Thesoxlost ( talk) 18:44, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
There's a nintendo DS game based on Ceaser Millan and the Dog Whisperer show. I think it should have some sort of mention in the media section or something. Anyway, just bringing it up. 10:07, 17 January 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.118.74.213 ( talk)
An editor just moved the article to "César Millán" from "Cesar Millan". However I checked his official website, [8], and found he spells his name without accents. Other sources also spell his name without accents. [9] So I moved the article back. If anyone has a different view let's discuss it before moving the article again. Will Beback talk 05:40, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
the criticism section is not up to par yet.
i also think there should be some mention of the fact that he is training people at least as much, if not more than, the dogs. this seems sourceable.
i recommend an NPOV tag. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.214.125.15 ( talk) 06:46, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Hi,
I removed a bit about the AHA retracting their disapproval, because I checked the source and couldn't find the claim. Was my bad (sorry), it was in the embedded video at the bottom. It was Milan himself, however, which seems a strange source! I tried to find other sources for retraction to no avail. But then... I tried to find the original article on the AHA's site, and that's gone as well! Tacit retraction?! The article's still available on other sites, but it's strange it's not on their own. I sent off a quick email to the AHA to ask if they retracted - I know that's not usable as a source, but I'm just interested!
Btw, I get the feeling that, in an attempt to make the overall criticism section seem more level, a large Dodson comment was inserted that was apparently in agreement with Milan. IMHO to make things more even you need to find authorities who vouch for Cesar! I read both cited articles by Dodson and he's basically dead set against those kinds of techniques, and he's for what he describes as 'non-confrontational'. An appropriate quote: 'I work on the theory that if you can train a killer whale to launch itself out of a swimming pool, roll on its side and urinate into a small plastic cup, given only a whistle and a bucket of fish, without a choke chain, then you don’t need those confrontational techniques with dogs.' As I say, I really felt it was an unfair assessment of Dodman to have a small line about his disapproval, and a huge para about his apparent agreement, when he seems fundamentally opposed. My two cents. Jburbell ( talk) 04:01, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
are we sure that most of the stuff about helping dogs is philanthropic as such? How about philcanine? 147.188.27.27 ( talk) 13:29, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
this section reads like a promotional brochure, and I'm not sure that donations of $5000 are really noteworthy in this kind of detail. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.26.176.12 ( talk) 20:28, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
These sections are largely unreferenced and hence, don't belong. As they exist currently, they are original research. 842U ( talk) 10:24, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Cesar Millan guest starred as himself in episodes of the television programs Bones on September 17, 2008, and Ghost Whisperer on March 30, 2007. There have been references to Cesar Millan or Dog Whisperer in X-Play, the King of the Hill episode "Doggone Crazy", The Venture Bros season 4 premier, and the comic strips " Blondie" and " Bizarro". Tegan and Sara mention the show in one of their video chapters for their album, The Con. Millan was parodied in the season 10 episode of South Park, Tsst, and in the chapter "The Cat Whisperer" of Tom and Jerry Tales. [1]
A mobile phone game called "My Dog Coach: Understand Your Dog With Cesar Millan" was released in 2008 [2].
Marj ( talk) 02:29, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Information on Daddy's death http://www.upi.com/Entertainment_News/TV/2010/02/22/Cesar-Millans-dog-Daddy-dead-at-16/UPI-25321266890353/ may be more appropriate here than under "Program Format" in Dog Whisperer —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mdk572 ( talk • contribs) 03:33, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
An editor has added this article to an illegal immigrant category, but I don't see any mention of that in the article. Do we have a source for it? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:15, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
He did cross the border illegally. He was an illegal immigrant for a while, but is now a legal resident. I undid the category change mainly because the editor removed a valid category to add the illegal immigrant category. Even if the illegal immigrant category is valid, deleting the other category is vandalism. -- Thesoxlost ( talk) 23:38, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
As I understand it, Category:Illegal immigrants to the United States
[11] is a subcategory of Category:American criminals
[12]. The category currently has 3 people on it, namely the subject of this biographic article and two mass murderers. It is important that we make sure that the criteria for adding this category be met. That criteria is spelled out on the parent category page, and is as follows (see
[13]):
For inclusion in this category, a person must:
This is a fairly rigorous standard. Does the subject of this biography satisfy these criteria? -- Ramsey2006 ( talk) 02:28, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Will, César stated on his TV program (I heard him myself) that he first entered the USA illegally. However, that does not make him a criminal since he was not arrested. He was young and made a mistake, a common one among young people in México who have ambitions for a better life. He is now a naturalized citizen of the USA. I'm certain there must be a primary source for this information, either the DVD or a transcript for the TV show in question. There may even be a secondary source that probably copies this primary source. If you wish to make an edit due to lack of citation, that is your right. However, you now know that a source exists, even if we can't get it without spending money. David Spector 03:43, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
The link # 36, under the sources or external links, needs to be updated. Here's the new link with the quote that was paraphrased: http://www.americanhumane.org/about-us/newsroom/news-releases/dog-training-symposium.html It contains the part where American Human invites Cesar Millan to a national meeting amongst professionals, stating that despite their differences in views, they have many similarities in their goals, etc., all in that new link. I'm not very familiar with Wikipedia yet, if anyone could help me update that link, would be appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.85.201.41 ( talk) 02:17, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
The selective use of out of context quotes, the misrepresentation of the point of view of sources, and the over reliance on the article subject as a source of information may have compromised the neutrality of this article. Marj ( talk) 00:29, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
In one specific example of the biased use of references, the article says:
Criticism and response
Dr. Nicholas Dodman, an animal behavior pharmacologist and the director of the Animal Behavior Clinic at Tufts University's Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine, contended in a February 2006 article for the New York Times that Millan had set dog training back considerably.[30] Dodman agrees, however, that the most important preventative measure people can take to help avoid behavioral problems in their pets would be to provide leadership. “ Leadership is very important because of the pack mentality of dogs. If you are the leader, I don’t think that the dog is unhappy about having you as the leader ... They don’t care about being at the top of the hierarchy, they just need to know where they are in it."[31]
Apart from using the dismissive "contended" which connotes a disputed point of view, this quote misrepresents Dodman who is a public and vocal critic of Millan, implying a level of support for his methods that does not exist.
Marj ( talk) 07:58, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
I've added Mizabot auto-archiving to this talk page, please let me know if anyone objects. Dreadstar ☥ 22:22, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
I removed this quote "...your message has profound implications and takes our knowledge that nothing exists in the universe except thought and energy to a new level. If the human species destroys itself, it will be because of its disposition to follow unstable pack leaders. And, if diplomacy could be carried out with calm assertiveness and calm submission, we could resolve our differences without aggression. Your mission to teach the people in third-world countries to offer reciprocal fulfillment could, indeed, bring world peace. For if love nurtures the state of mind and only the calm and submissive are fed, then the whole paradigm of human behavior shifts," says Adrian S. Windsor Ph.D from Inside Edge."
Reason: The quote was pulled from Millan's dog psychology website and seems to be used as a marketing tool and does not specifically address his methods. Acoording to her website, Adrian S. Windsor Ph.D is a Real Estate Broker, who holds a doctorate in Literature from the University of Michigan and is the author of the book "Seven Tools to Transform Genius into Practical Power" http://www.adrianwindsor.com/
Perhaps when writing about Cesar Millan we should follow Wikipedia's guidelines for Reliable sources:
"Scholarship
Wikipedia relies heavily upon the established literature created by scientists, scholars and researchers around the world. Items that fit this criteria can always be considered reliable. However they may be outdated by more recent research, or controversial in the sense there are alternative scholarly explanations. Wikipedia articles should point to all major scholarly interpretations of a topic.
The material has been thoroughly vetted by the scholarly community. This means published in peer-reviewed sources, and reviewed and judged acceptable scholarship by the academic journals. Items that are recommended in scholarly bibliographies are preferred. In articles on religions and religious practices, religious scholars (recognized authorities on the religion) are considered reliable sources for the religion's practices and beliefs, and traditional religious and academic views of religious practices should generally both be cited and attributed as such when they differ.
Non-scholarly sources
Some criteria that can assist editors in evaluating non-scholarly sources:
Attributability—The more we know about the originator, either organisation or individual, of source material, the better. This helps us measure of the authority of the content: Expertise of the originator about the subject—An academic expert in one subject is more reliable when writing about that subject than when writing about another. For example, a biologist is more reliable when writing about biology than when writing about nuclear physics. Bias of the originator about the subject—If an author has some reason to be biased, or admits to being biased, this should be taken into account when reporting his or her opinion. This is not to say that the material is not worthy of inclusion, but please take a look at our policy on Neutral point of view. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources
These sections are about Cesar Millan the man - not the program Dog Whisperer
Millan has been featured twice on the Oprah Winfrey Show, [3] [4] as well as on ABC World News Tonight (2002), CBS-TV (2001), Channel 7 News (May 2005), CNN (April 2006), Creative Arts Emmys 2006 (August 2006), Entertainment Insider (December 2004), Good Day Live (February 2005), Good Morning America With Diane Sawyer (September 2004), KTLA-TV (2002), Last Call with Carson Daly (November 2006), Martha Stewart Show (April 2006), Megan Mullally Show(November 2006), Nightline (July 2006), NBC-TV (2001), Today Show (April 2006), Tonight Show With Jay Leno (February 2005), The View (July 2006), WUSA-TV 9 News (April 2006), season 4 of Kathy Griffin: My Life on the D-List.
In 2005, the Humane Society of the United States Genesis Award Committee presented Millan with a Special Commendation for his work in rehabilitating animals, and in 2007 he was awarded the Michael Landon Award for Inspiration to Youth Through Television. [5] In 2008, Millan was recognized as a "Treasure of Los Angeles" for his contributions to the City of Los Angeles. [6]
The sentence relating to the warnings ("Each episode contains repeated warnings that viewers should not try some of the behavior modification techniques at home") isn't supported by the reference. I've seen the show and there is definitely a warning of some sort, possibly at the beginning of each segment (each new dog, set of dogs, etc). I was under the impression that the warning was more like "don't do this without consulting a professional." I'll try to locate the text of the actual warning -- in which case it may be more appropriately presented in the Dog Whisperer article rather than here. 842U ( talk) 13:45, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
For what it's worth, the Dodman quote is correct, and the NYT article includes this statement by Dodman: Dr. Dodman said: My college thinks it is a travesty. We've written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years. 842U ( talk) 11:59, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Dr. Nicholas Dodman, an animal behavior pharmacologist and director of the Animal Behavior Clinic at Tufts University's Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine, contended in a February 2006 article for the New York Times that Millan had set dog training back considerably. [FOOTNOTE: "C'mon, Pooch, Get With the Program". The New York Times, Anna Bahney, February 23, 2006. February 23, 2006. Retrieved April 28, 2010.
Dr. Dodman said: My college thinks it is a travesty. We've written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years.
Dodman's qualificaton that he's an animal pharmocologist got removed again from the article, so I added two ref's with quotes in the reference citations:
And this:
In other words, if Dodman is at the forefront of the pet drug movement, it's not implausible he might have a bias against someone promoting dog excercise as the primary solution to dog behavioral problems. 842U ( talk) 11:40, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
While I'm certainly no fan of Cesar Millan's, I believe the paragraph and reference I removed via this edit was in violation of WP:ELNO and possibly WP:BLP. I'd like to hear what other editors have to say about that, however. Mark Shaw ( talk) 19:32, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
The article discusses how he illegally crossed the border from Mexico to America, yet in the introductory paragraph of his biography he is called a "Mexican-American." Shouldn't he then be called an "American immigrant of Mexican descent"? - Cactusjump ( talk) 00:32, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
Anyone tell me what that is, and why every mention of the subject on any TV station anywhere should be notable? While were at it, "many" isn't very encyclopedic. "Some" is. 99.245.37.46 ( talk) 20:28, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
I'd rather we find a better source than a PR webpage like www.dogwelfarecampaign.org. What makes this a reliable source that meets WP:BLP? Seems a poor source to me, but perhaps there's more to it than I've been able to find..who edits it, do they have a "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy"? This is a BLP, we need to be "very firm about the use of high-quality sources". Sure, it says it's a charity and that it's supported by several groups of dog welfare charities and other orgs, but does this make it a reliable source per WP:BLP standards...? I'm not sure... Dreadstar ☥ 22:47, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
I don't look at sources that way, in that, my opinion doesn't matter. I looked for oversight, I looked for authorship and the site is conspicuously devoid of both which in itself is odd. Mind you, I've seen some odd things on Wikipedia and on the internet in general so nothing, very little :O) surprises me. At any rate its not compliant by our standards so out it should go. My opinion any way.(
Littleolive oil (
talk)
17:31, 1 March 2014 (UTC))
Thanks, but the spelling with one 'l' redirects to this page so that shouldn't have been a problem. I've requested help at WP:RSN#Dogwelfarecampaign.org where I added [16] as a balanced source, a response and some criticism from the editor of Dogs Today, owned by the Daily Mail. Dougweller ( talk) 16:13, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
Yin is a woman by the way. She is selling courses that support her version of how dogs should be trained so it is in her best interests to show how alternative methods-Milan's- do not work as well as what she is selling. I'd add that in this article we have a summary created from content on the TV show, the mother article, so consistent practice would indicate adding content on the TV show should be to the mother article, not here. The comment made on the BLP/NB is apt. Content on Milan should summarize criticism and should not be a list of complaints from trainers in alternative methods. This comment was made per this article, a BLP, where we should be stringent about what and why we add content.( Littleolive oil ( talk) 19:00, 2 March 2014 (UTC))
What guidelines say that criticism if it concerns the methods he demonstrates on his TV show should not be in the article? This article already says "the program demonstrates Cesar Millan's application of his philosophy that healthy, balanced dogs require strong 'pack leadership' from their owners, specifically in the form of exercise, discipline and affection (in that order)". Why can't we have criticism of that in the article? I'd be happy to have it integrated into the section on his show rather than in the controversy section. Dougweller ( talk) 18:51, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
Regarding the Yin source, every video example and every comment by Yin about Cesar is about the show and what she saw on the show, it is not about his personal life, with absolutely nothing except for what she has seen on TV. Comments about the TV show belong in the article about the TV show, comments related to Cesar's Biography and his life belong here. Sure, being on TV is part of his life, but we only see bits and pieces of that - and we have an article on the show. Now if we had someone who was on set and was a good WP:RS who saw and wrote about it, that would be 'real life'. Not what you saw on TV. All we need in this BLP is a short summary of his show, which is already Here: Cesar_Millan#Dog_Whisperer_with_Cesar_Millan, that section can have a short summary of the criticism Millan has had on the show. There's no reason to repeat every single criticism from every single source about what people say they saw him do in his appearances on the show; all this BLP needs is a short summary in the section about the show. I think it would be UNDUE to do otherwise. Dreadstar ☥ 19:46, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
Scanning over the article, there are a few areas that I think are worth drawing attention to:
CorporateM ( Talk) 03:06, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
I don't think we have to source these appearances except to the stations themselves. In a sense these are primary sources giving information about themselves. We can trust the information is correct, and that, that rightness has oversight of the station itself. None of this is contentious.( Littleolive oil ( talk) 18:21, 8 March 2014 (UTC))
Millan appeared on the May 22, 2006 episode of
The Oprah Winfrey Show,
[7]
[8] as well as on
ABC World News Tonight (2002), CBS-TV (2001), Channel 7 News (May 2005), CNN (April 2006), Creative Arts Emmys 2006 (August 2006), Entertainment Insider (December 2004),
Good Day Live (February 2005),
Good Morning America With
Diane Sawyer (September 2004),
KTLA-TV (2002),
Last Call with Carson Daly (November 2006),
Martha Stewart Show (April 2006), Megan Mullally Show (November 2006),
Nightline (July 2006), NBC-TV (2001),
Today Show (April 2006),
The Tonight Show with Jay Leno (February 2005),
The View (July 2006),
WUSA-TV 9 News (April 2006), season 4 of the
Emmy Award winning reality show
Kathy Griffin: My Life on the D-List.
Millan guest-starred as himself in Ghost Whisperer in Season 2, Episode 18, "Children of Ghost". In the episode, Melinda ( Jennifer Love Hewitt) seeks out Millan for advice on how to help "Homer", Ghost Whisperer's Ghost Dog (from Season 1), cross over into the light.
A satirized version of Millan was portrayed in " Tsst", the May 3, 2006 episode of the Comedy Central animated series South Park, in Lianne Cartman enlisted his help in applying his principles to Eric Cartman.
Millan played himself in "The Finger in the Nest", the September 17, 2008, episode of Bones, helping the lead characters to determine if a location was used for dogfighting. Millan played himself in Beethoven's Big Break which premiered in cinemas on December 30, 2008, and the The Back-Up Plan, which was released April 23, 2010 in theaters. citation needed
Millan made a guest appearance as a judge on Episode 3 of the 10th season of The Apprentice and the April 27, 2011 episode of Jeopardy! [9]
( Littleolive oil ( talk) 18:16, 8 March 2014 (UTC))
Why would Esquire be an acceptable link for a BLP on a dog trainer? ( Littleolive oil ( talk) 23:36, 3 March 2014 (UTC))
Well, it's recently used as a source and I have concerns about its use here. Being critical is indeed not a reason to remove it, but what are they exactly commenting on and is it really a source for this BLP? Dreadstar ☥ 03:10, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
I think one of the biggest things our readers want to get out of this article is to know whether his methods are effective and humane, who has sanctioned his methods and who opposes them. We need the absolute highest quality of sources to do this well and it is probably the most important aspect of the article. If we are overly critical, it is a BLP problem, and if we are overly supportive, we are misleading our readers and encouraging animal abuse.
I think the media is a very weak source for this, because their job is grandstanding and storytelling, shock and awe. I wonder if there has been any sophisticated academic review of his techniques? I will take a look at some point, but if someone here has expertise on the topic, they may have an easier time finding the best possible quality sources. CorporateM ( Talk) 23:26, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Woot! No luck with an inter-library loan, but the reference desk pulled through. The Current Science article confirms what we already expected from weaker sources, that there is a widespread disapproval of Millan's techniques among professional dog trainers, who think he is abusive. However, the article cites a counter-view from an article in The New Yorker
If anyone can dig up The New Yorker piece, it might be worthwhile. CorporateM ( Talk) 19:33, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
Cesar Millan did a 10 episode series set in Spain that aired in channel cuatro ( http://www.cuatro.com) during 2012, titled "El líder de la manada" (The leader of the pack). Episodes are now available on the network's streaming site: http://www.mitele.es/programas-tv/el-lider-de-la-manada/ Maybe a native English speaker can add this to the main article? Segata128 ( talk) 17:35, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
The section on Pets is about dogs who "work". Work is a standard and common phrase used for animals who have specific and ongoing purposes as Border Collies do. In this case the section describes dogs who are working with Milan, have a specific purpose, and are not just pets. I'm not going argue over this heading , however, the heading title, "Working pets" is accurate per the content in the section and is in no way OR. ( Littleolive oil ( talk) 15:07, 19 September 2014 (UTC))
![]() | This
edit request to
Cesar Millan has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
216.59.120.210 ( talk) 16:56, 3 December 2014 (UTC) Millan died today as confirmed by major news media.
Not done - you might want to read
this report entitled
"Hoax Busted: Report on Popular 'Dog Whisperer' Cesar Millan's Death is False" -
Arjayay (
talk)
17:02, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Just curious and think it would be interesting in the article to note if Mr. Millan has ever been bitten by a dog. Just curious. Anyone know? I understand this isn't a message board for fan trivia or blogging and am reserving other questions that are more appropriately asked in that format but I do think this tidbit would be interesting to include in the article if known. Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.133.42.16 ( talk) 14:05, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
He no longer lives in Inglewood.
Queequeg22 ( talk) 12:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
This guy's biography really needs to be condensed and be less personal.
Stoned philosophaster ( talk) 17:30, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
The end of the critics section states that "most of Cesar's followers..." without references or anything. It's all just opinion. I didn't want to remove the whole paragraph without some input...but there is no basis for this paragraph so I don't see why it should stay? Since I'm sure there was no study to see if people that like Cesar Millan have backgrounds in animal behavior and all the other stuff it says I'm sure there is nothing to actually cite...
Puresholtz 05:05, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Removed the folllowing link:
As a source to "In 2005, the National Humane Society Genesis Award Committee presented him with a Special Commendation for his work in rehabilitating sheltered animals." Nowhere on that page does it say anything about Cesar Millan winning a award. In fact, if you search the hsus.org website, there is not one mention of Cesar Millan.
The only source I could find for this award was from the Random House website. All other googling will lead you to the same wording as above, leading one to believe that everyone has used the same source for this information.
Could it be he received the award from a different orginzation? The website posted, hsus.org, is actually called "The Humane Society of The United States", not "The National Humane Society". There are two groups I found which call themselves "The National Humane Society" http://www.humanesocietynational.org/ http://www.nationalhumane.com/ But they don't seem to have a "Genesis Award Committee".
The reference to this "award" is very misleading, especially since the link to Genesis Award points to the HSUS website. The HSUS has not issued Millan any awards (you can view a complete listing of award recipients on the HSUS website. This appears to be another unsubstantiated claim by Millan's PR people. Random House and Malcom Gladwell appear to be repeating what they were told.
I removed the below statement, because this is about the show...not Cesar himself. Seems like it should be on the Dog Whisperer page or a page about the TV rating system, rather than in this article.
"On October 27, 2006, the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants warned the National Geographic Channel that the Dog Whisperer might encourage children to behave unsafely around dogs. The group questions the 'TV_G' rating the show is given. [1]" Whedonrox
Regarding National Humane Society Commendation. I have also tried to locate the specific report without success, but feel that because it is represented by reliable sources (Random House and other reputable/Malcolm Gladwell)that it should be included until disputed/denied by the NHS. I'd like to add a glossary to the menu but not sure how. Tintina 04:40, 19 January 2007 (UTC) Never mind my comments:>) I'm getting in sync! Tintina 04:40, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
The National Humane Society Commendation is also noted on the flap of his book Cesar's Way. Whedonrox 12:30, 25 January 2007
I wasn't sure where to add this comment but as it is a thought that recurs and I believe fundamental to the entry on Cesar Millan, I am posting it on top.
What is the purpose of this entry? Is it meant to be a biography of Cesar Millan as a "celebrity persona" or is it a sideways discussion of his methods in the rehabilitation of dogs?
He is a Dog Whisperer Tintina 04:40, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
On first reading it appears to be a biography. The controversy section however seems to be a little heavy, and one wonders if it may become the highlight of the biography itself.
As Cesar does not call himself a behaviourist why is this even mentioned? He has never implied that he has any certification.
Other than these comments I will assist in editing the content.
Tintina 17:16, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I added a section on Cesar's Methods. The Controversy and Criticism sections refers to critique of his methods, but the article never states exactly what they are.
Also, I added a few articles to the external resources section.
Below is mine..above is not signed
I did some editing in the controversy section. re arranging and clarifying some points. I added a basic description of the opposing points of view from which the controversy stems. Tintina 20:23, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
He just got sued, somebody wanna include that? It's just as notable as being parodied on South Park.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/TV/05/05/tv.us.dogwhisperer.ap/index.html
I think thats trash and should not be included in wikipedia. If you want to include it you should wait to see if this is truth or just someone flinging rumors. LdyDragonfly 18:31, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
.... Biographies of living people should be written responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone. While a strategy of eventualism may apply to other subject areas, badly written biographies of living persons should be stubbed or deleted.
The article should document, in a non-partisan manner, what reliable third party sources have published about the subject and, in some circumstances, what the subject may have published about themselves. The writing style should be neutral, factual, and understated, avoiding both a sympathetic point of view and an advocacy journalism point of view.
What is the intent of Cesar Millan's Biography?
Because something has been published does not necessarily mean it MUST be included. what other published items are there that are not included-plenty I'm sure.
Tintina 22:00, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Keep in mind I like Cesar. It's important, however, to keep the article up to date; it doesn't matter whether or not the lawsuit is justified. It just happened; and this article will state it THAT WAY, just as the CNN article states it that way (it does not claim that the lawsuit is justified).
67.164.209.137
19:21, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
.............. I don't know the a law suit in itself is noteworthy of mention. Anyone can file a lawsuit for any number of reasons. I think it would be more appropriate to wait until the results of that suit are decided. Including it at this point does read as a bit infammatory (even though a suit may have been filed) it implies guilt in the read. I would prefer to err on the side of discretion. Tintina 21:47, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Cesar Millan was born in Culican, Mexico and NOT Mexico City, Mexico. This is clearly stated in his book and on shows he's in. (Sorry if my format is off I'm still a newbie here) LdyDragonfly 02:22, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I removed the reference to him being a "behaviourist" from the opening paragraph. He is not. He does not say he is. It is a misplaced comment.
It begins the biography on a note of "doubt" which is not neutral or understated. It is the criticism from others that refer to him having no certification as such. Tintina 22:19, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Added the line "not certified as an applied animal behavorist" due to the fact he is not.
Text below explains what applied animal behavior is, how one gets certified, and a link to current members. From the Animal Behavior Society website:
What is Applied Animal Behavior? The field of Applied Animal Behavior specializes in the behaviour of companion animals in relation to behavioural problems and training, the behaviour of farm, zoo and laboratory animals (i.e animal management and welfare) and studies of the behaviour of wild animals when these studies are relevant from an applied perspective, (i.e. wildlife management, pest management or nature conservation) as well as methodological studies.
Animal behaviorists are often educated in a variety of disciplines, including psychology biology, zoology or animal science. A professional applied animal behaviorist has demonstrated expertise in theprinciples of animal behavior, in the research methods of animal behavior, in the application of animal behavior principles to applied behavior problems and in the dissemination of knowledge about animal behavior through teaching and research. http://www.animalbehavior.org/ABSAppliedBehavior/
THE ANIMAL BEHAVIOR SOCIETY PROGRAM FOR CERTIFICATION OF APPLIED ANIMAL BEHAVIORISTS
Prepared for the ABS Board of Professional Certification, August, 1990. (Revised Jan 2002)
WHAT IS CERTIFICATION?
The Animal Behavior Society (ABS) is the leading professional organization in North America for
the study of animal behavior. The Society recognizes that animal-oriented groups or agencies,
businesses, and the general public seek professional advice about the animal behavior in general or
about behavioral problems of animals. Certification is the means by which the ABS demonstrates to the
public that certain individuals meet the minimum standards of education, experience and ethics required
of a professional applied animal behaviorist as set forth by the Society.
Animal behaviorists can be educated in a variety of disciplines, including psychology biology,
zoology or animal science. A professional applied animal behaviorist has demonstrated expertise in the
principles of animal behavior, in the research methods of animal behavior, in the application of animal
behavior principles to applied behavior problems and in the dissemination of knowledge about animal
behavior through teaching and research.
Certification constitutes recognition by the Animal Behavior Society that, to its best knowledge,
the certificant meets the educational, experiental and ethical standards required by the Society for
professional applied animal behaviorists. Certification does not constitute a guarantee that the applicant
meets a specific standard of competence or possesses specific knowledge.
WHO SHOULD BE CERTIFIED?
Certification is beneficial to anyone who consults with the public or with other professionals about
the applications of animal behavior knowledge or about specific behavioral problems of animals.
Examples are persons working in a clinical animal behavior setting (i.e., involving the diagnosis and
treatment of animal behavior problems), and those consulting with agricultural interests, zoos, research
institutions or governmental agencies about the behavior or behavior problems of wild or domestic
animals. By consulting with a certified professional applied animal behaviorist, the client can be assured
of the qualifications of the consultant.
WHAT ARE THE LEVELS OF PROFESSIONAL CERTIFICATION?
There are two levels of certification: Associate Applied Animal Behaviorist and Certified Applied
Animal Behaviorist. The Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist category has more rigorous educational and
experiental requirements. Requirements for both are listed below.
WHAT ARE THE REQUIREMENTS FOR CERTIFICATION?
Associate Applied Animal Behaviorist
The successful applicant must meet requirements of education, experience and endorsement to
become certified as an Associate Applied Animal Behaviorist. Educational requirements include a
Master's Degree from an accredited college or university in a biological or behavioral science with an
emphasis in animal behavior. The degree should include a research based thesis. Undergraduate and/or
graduate coursework must include 21 semester credits in behavioral science courses
including 6 semester credits in ethology, animal behavior and/or
comparative psychology and 6 semester credits in animal learning, conditioning and or animal
psychology (e.g., experimental psychology).
Experiential requirements include a minimum of two years of professional experience in applied
animal behavior. The applicant must demonstrate the ability to perform independently and
professionally in applied animal behavior. Examples include performing independent studies, data
analysis, formulation and testing of hypotheses and professional writing. Also required is evidence of
significant experience working interactively with a particular species (such as as a researcher, research
assistant, or intern working with a certified applied animal behaviorist) prior to working independently
with the species in a clinical animal behavior setting.
Endorsement requirements include the provision of a minimum of three letters of recommendation
from regular ABS members affirming the applicant's professional experience in the areas listed above.
Only two of these letters may come from the same institution.
Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist
Educational and experiental requirements include a doctoral degree from an accredited college or
university in a biological or behavioral science with an emphasis on animal behavior, including five years
of professional experience, or a doctorate from an accredited college or university in veterinary medicine
plus two years in a university-approved residency in animal behavior and three additional years of
professional experience in applied animal behavior. Any of these degrees must include the same
coursework requirements as the Associate Applied Animal Behaviorist. The successful applicant must
also demonstrate a thorough knowledge of the literature, scientific principles and principles of animal
behavior, demonstrate original contributions or original interpretations of animal behavior information
and show evidence of significant experience working interactively with a particular species as a
researcher, research assistant or intern with a Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist prior to working
independently with the species in a clinical animal behavior setting.
Endorsement requirements are identical to those of the Associate Applied Animal Behaviorist.
Exceptions to any of the above requirements will be considered by the Board of Professional
Certification upon receipt of a written statement explaining why and how the intent of the educational
and experiential requirements are satisfied.
http://www.animalbehavior.org/Applied/Pamph3N-Jan2002.htm
Current Members:
http://www.animalbehavior.org/Applied/CAAB_directory.html
I'm still getting the hang of this..forgive
I agree with the below. I changed the opening paragraph-omitting the word and reference to not being certified for something he doesn't describe himself as in the first place. Tintina 22:30, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I felt this needed to be stepped down in significance. Two reasons. First, having it right at the start set the wrong tone, as if somehow not being certified made him a dubious character or unqualified in some way. Secondly, looking over the Animal Behavior Society web site, they are largely concerned with scientific studies of animal behaviour. They have nothing to do with domestic animal training or therapy except where an academic might be studying these things for scientific reasons. So Millan not being a member of ABS is meaningless, because he wouldn't need to be a member, any more than he would need to be a member of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons.
Cheers, Neale Neale Monks 08:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Neale,
The reason I added "Not a Certified Animal Behavorist" in the first paragraph is to offset the vague term "dog behaviorst" in the first sentence. Animal Behavior is a science, and Mr. Millan is being dubious when he (or anyone else) tries to insinuate that he has any formal training. Members of the Animal Behavior Society are actually animal behavorists and actually DO work with domestic pets such as cats and dogs. That's what "applied" means in the title "Cerified APPLIED Animal Behavorist." From their website:
Who should be Certified?
Certification is beneficial to anyone who consults with the public or with other professionals about the applications of animal behavior knowledge or about specific behavioral problems of animals.
Examples are persons working in a clinical animal behavior setting (i.e., involving the diagnosis and treatment of animal behavior problems), and those consulting with agricultural interests, zoos, research institutions or governmental agencies about the behavior or behavior problems of wild or domestic animals. By consulting with a certified professional applied animal behaviorist, the client can be assured of the qualifications of the consultant.
They really are the only serious originzation when it comes to diagnosing and treating pet behavior problems. To become certified, you must have extentsive education, experience and publish original research studies.(see qualifications in my first post)
I can call myself a doctor, astronaunt, or sea captain - that does not make me one.
As you addded, Mr. Millan is a member of "The International Association of Canine Professionals", which according to the first page on its website: (is) For DOG TRAINERS; GROOMERS; KENNEL OWNERS; VETERINARIANS; PET SITTERS; DOG HANDLERS; RETAILERS; PET FIRST AID INSTRUCTORS; BOUNDARY FENCE INSTALLERS & ALL PROFESSIONALS WITHIN THE DOG WORLD
Also from their site: What is the definition of a Canine Professional for the IACP? A Canine Professional is an individual pursuing or engaged in an occupation, vocation, or activity related to dogs. Examples: Dog Trainer, Veterinarian, Groomer, Kennel Manager, etc. Anyone in the field of dogs can become a member.
Who can Join? Anyone who qualifies as a Canine Professional. There are three main levels of membership; PROFESSIONAL Member, ASSOCIATE Member, and AFFILIATE Member. These categories allow the IACP the opportunity to welcome all persons, from the student or hobbyist to the owner of a canine-related business. As a part of our networking and educational opportunities, we encourage all those involved in the canine industry to join our organization. For more information on the membership levels and benefits, visit our Membership Section http://www.dogpro.org/index.php?pageID=29
To put this organization before ABS implies that one is equal to the other. They are not. Cleaned it up a bit to make it more clear.
Took out the following under "Criticism and Controversy":
However, it should be noted that membership of this society does not infer profesional competance or ability and non memership is not a sign of anything other than choice. Though Cesar has come under criticism many so called academic behaviourists find it hard to agree on any number of the theories that abound in this area, dominance being just one. In the end it is the client who is responsible for chosing the behaviourist and many go to experienced trainers who have developed as behavioural consultants over many years of working and study. It is a sad fact that a number of academic behaviourist do not own dogs and have never done so, some consider it unimportant to see or work with the animal directly, as they feel the prognosis and treatment can be provided remotely. Most dog owners need and in fact want direct help and behaviourists like Cesar provide this irrespective of academic snobbery.'
..and changed Mr. Millan to not being a "member" of ABS to not being "certfied". It is true that anyone can be a member of ABS (just like anyone can be a member of a historical society)- but obviously the distinction here is certification. Mr. Millan cannot be certified, as he so far lacks the proper education.
The statement "It is a sad fact that a number of academic behaviourist do not own dogs and have never done so, some consider it unimportant to see or work with the animal directly, as they feel the prognosis and treatment can be provided remotely" is not factual. The job of Certified Animal Behaviorists is to work directly with pets.
The statement "Most dog owners need and in fact want direct help and behaviourists like Cesar provide this irrespective of academic snobbery."'' is biased opinion.
I don't think there would be that much controversey if Cesar Millan just referred to himself as a "Dog Trainer". What's wrong with that? It's when he starts using language like "Dog Psychology Center" and "behaviorist" that he seems to attach a unearned credibility to himself.
............................
The controversy is over his methods and the two main camps of thought. He's NOT a trainer, he works from a behavioural point of view As far as I know he does not refer to himself as a behaviourist. Others have tagged that on him and subsequently it used as a criticism
Tintina 22:04, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Cesar refers to himself as a dog behavior expert - not a trainer or a behaviorist.
THIS IS IMPORTANT:
Cesar has never referred to himself as an "Animal Behaviorist."
He has no college degrees and makes no bones about that, no pun intended. On the show, we call him a "Dog Behavior Expert" for that very reason. He does not call himself a "dog trainer" because training has traditionally been associated with teaching a dog to follow commands, such as "sit, stay, come, heel." Cesar rehabiliates dogs with behavior problems, and helps owners understand how to see the world through their dogs' eyes, which he interprets as "dog psychology."
As for the lawsuit issues, will they be updated with future information as it becomes available? Such as the fact that neither Flody Suarez nor his dog were ever clients of Cesar's - but were clients of another,less experienced trainer who was "borrowing" the facility that day? Seems a pertinent fact, no?
Remember, anyone can file any lawsuit at any time. Does this then mean that every lawsuit ever filed against Wikipedia subjects should be included in their pages? If so, better get editing, guys.
- -- 64.12.116.71 15:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)Melissa Jo Peltier - Co-Executive Producer, Dog Whisperer with Cesar Millan and his co-author on Cesar's Way.
In response to the above concern by an anonymous user claiming to be the producer for Millan's show, I investigated the "dog behaviorist" title claim. However, it seems pretty clear that the title is referenced. For example, here, on the National Geographic page promoting the show, Millan is listed as "dog-behaviorist-to-the-stars" [3]. And at this page, tmz.com, he is again listed as a dog "behaviorist". [4] What do other editors think? Should we change his title on the bio page? -- Elonka 21:04, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I have to say that add that if someone is a programmer and does not have any college degrees in programming, can you say that he is not a programmer? I am probably a better programmer than 80% of programmers out there who have been college educated because I started programming when I was 9 and have been doing it my whole life. I have no college degrees in computer anything but I can guarantee you if something is wrong with your computer regardless of OS I can fix it. Same rules apply for Cesar and his expertise. Expertise does NOT require a college degree or certification to be called expertise. It merely needs to exist. Now if he claimed he was a "certified" dog behavior expert, that would be a different story. 198.200.181.206 ( talk) 19:10, 14 October 2009 (UTC) - (user aqhillie - i'm too lazy to login)
Elonka has stated that credible websites indeed consider Cesar Millan to be a "dog behaviourist"; however, I don't believe National Geographic.com or TMZ.com were being as cautious as we are in designating who or what is a dog behaviourist; when National Geographic made the statement; "dog behaviourist to the stars" (something like that); the author of that line may not have been cautious or aware of the meaning being that term. Also, I wouldn't consider TMZ.com to be a very verifiable source.
However, the possibility that the Producer of The Dog Whisperer does not call Cesar Millan a "dog behaviourist" does not mean he isn't one; it just means it's his/her belief. Also, even if Cesar Millan himself calls himself a dog behaviour expert and not a "dog behaviourist", without the reasons for it (or if the reasons don't "work"), it STILL doesn't mean Cesar Millan isn't a dog-behaviourist. It could be that Cesar Millan is unaware of the qualifiers, or rather, the lack of qualifiers to identify oneself as a dog-behaviourist (or that he's playing it safe). It could also be that the Producer of the show wants to avoid any complications; so s/he would rather call Millan a dog-behaviour-expert. It STILL does not mean he isn't one. If Steven Spielberg stated that he wasn't a film-director; the Wikipedia article on him would still call him a film-director, because the definitions would match with his occupation. THe only thing that would change in the article is perhaps having a smaller paragraph stating that Spielberg doesn't view himself as a film-director (he does; I'm just speaking hypothetically).
I'm not sure what Cesar Millan should be designated in this article. It's possible to have a short statement saying that neither Cesar Millan nor his Producers believe/call him a dog-behaviourist (and give possible reasons why they do this). But I think it's best to still refer to him as a behaviourist; but to note as an aside that he has no college degree; but also, that the dog-behaviorist title does not require a degree -- unlike the position of being a Doctor, for example (which requires permission from the government).
So, I think the key is to try to find a verifiable source which helps define what it means to be a "dog behaviourist"; not to try and find if "credible" sources call Cesar Millan a dog behaviourist. Both may contradict; but there's only one truth.
For the exec. producer of the show: as long as there is a credible source (an article for example; because unfortunately, it is hard to verify whether or not your are indeed the producer of the show) stating that Cesar was not associated with the dog or it's owner, than it could be included in this Wikipedia entry. I for one believe you, but this just isn't how Wikipedia handles things (and I agree with this policy); so I'd advise you to issue a statement to a credible news source saying that Millan was not associated with the dog or owner, and that another behaviourist was. It seems that there are no current sources that help to clarify this. National Geographic's official statement only vaguely says that Cesar Millan was not there at the time of the incident. Oh, and I'd like to say that I enjoyed your book, and am also a big fan of the show.
24.23.51.27
05:48, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
So, I've just read the statement released by the AHS; asking the National Geographic channel to stop airing these episodes; and accusing Millan of inhumane practice. What I don't think AHS realizes is that most or a lot of these dogs that Millan is hired to "fix" are "red zone" cases; or cases that are beyond repair. In any normal circumstance, a professional trainer (possibly one associated with the AHS) would not be able to help improve the dog and fix the problems; and in the case of an aggressive one, they would simply recommend that it be put down. The site states that AHS believes there are other options to euthanizing a dog... and yet they seek to shut down Cesar Millan? When after many trained certified professionals have tried to re-balance a dog and have failed, Cesar Millan was always the person who was up to the task. If it wasn't for his "harsh" or "inhumane" techniques; than the dogs probably would have continued to act out aggressively and attack people -- and possibly be euthanized. When Millan says that "no dog needs to be euthanized", that "all dogs can change"; he means it. Even if it means using a choke collar, or a, god forbid, shock-collar (although with his skills, I think this is a little excessive). And placing a dog onto the ground (otherwise known as the Alpha roll) is too excessive? Have the AHS ever heard of the phrase, "drastic times call for drastic measures"? When a dog is recommended for death roll by the top trainers and its only hope is Cesar Millan, you better hope he does whatever he can to save that dog's life. The AHS needs to stop beeing pansies and realize that sometimes, you just need to be harsh. The end result is well worth it in my opinion. 24.23.51.27 13:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Can someone clarify which is correct here? If we're talking playing the part of the alpha male, then presumably this should be "alpha rôle". But if the roll in question is a body rolling over, then alpha roll. I do not know, but noticed that this was the latest correction made (see here [6]. Cheers, Neale Neale Monks 14:12, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
It seems like whoever added this particular criticism did it because of personal reasons -- not because it is a controversial or heavilly criticised interview (there is no notability), but because the person who added this criticism just disagreed with a lot of what Cesar said. So because there is no notability, I'm going to remove it (and possibly other criticisms if I see fit). For a criticism to be included in an article, it's gotta be a common one.
Here is what was posted, "On October 22, 2006, Cesar Millan appeared on Pet Central with Steve Dale. Millan refused to appear live or take calls from listeners, so the interview was recorded on October 21. When questioned where he learned about dominance in "packs," Millan responded that, in addition to watching animals as a child, he learned by watching shows on television about elephants. Unable to clarify his definition of "calm-assertive," Millan also agreed that his methods are not replicable and his show should not be considered a "how-to." [7] " Here's what one should understand from this interview: the interviewer is clearly unfamiliar with a lot of what Cesar does (and is in disagreement with his techniques). Whoever listed this interview sensed that this was a great opportunity to criticize Millan, and add it to this article. The nitpicking and odd biased POV in the "critcism" is just bizzare -- I listened through most of the same interview, and saw it from a different standpoint, hopefully a more objective one.
First, where was it stated in the interview that Millan refused to appear live or to take calls from listeners? And in a community where everyone will most likely question Millan or go out to disprove his techniques, how can you really blame him? I agree that if I was in his shoes, I'd try and be more bold and attempt to squash some of these criticisms (because we all know -- the whole reason Steve Dale wants Millan to have a "conversation" with other "professionals" is to disprove him). But it's hard to blame him.
And look at the bias behind the statement; "...he learned by watching shows on television about elephants". I did not come accross this statement in the interview myself, but notice how this is meant to be a hidden criticism -- the statement fails to explain itself, but whoever included this in this interview obviously wanted people to see that he learned by "watching elephants" and that he has not formal education. It was included without explanation, and simply as a way to ridicule him. It's like a run-on sentence even; just a little factoid which makese sense being there. The whole section is stated in a way that attempts to be neutral, but fails miserably at it. Millan wasn't "unable to clarify what he means by calm-assertive", this can be very subjective. One can view it as Neil being unable to understand, or Millan having bad English (he's not very good at explaining himself). But whoever wrote that tried to imply that he was under pressure, that he couldn't back himself up when interrogated, that he's a crook, etc. These statements are not objective. Whoever listened to the interview listened with a biased POV and posted it as so. I'm removing it. 24.23.51.27 23:20, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
There are a lot of article with a criticism section that also have a Response to Criticism section, yet this article doesn't. Responses, if common or notable responses, should be included after criticisms which come in the form of viewpoints -- the trivia (such as lawsuits) shouldn't be responded to (or at least, I haven't seen this done before). There are definately articles out there which praise Millan instead of bashing him -- just the other day I came accross a positive article which was meant as a response to this current trend of Millan-criticism. 24.23.51.27 00:08, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
After reviewing guidelines I feel that Criticism and Controversy section should be changed to a simple Critics:
Wiki Guidelines:Excerpts:
Wikipedia has a neutral point of view, which means we strive for articles that advocate no single point of view. Sometimes this requires representing multiple points of view; presenting each point of view accurately; providing context for any given point of view, so that readers understand whose view the point represents; and presenting no one point of view as "the truth" or "the best view". It means citing verifiable, authoritative sources whenever possible, especially on controversial topics. When a conflict arises as to which version is the most neutral, declare a cool-down period and tag the article as disputed; hammer out details on the talk page and follow dispute resolution. Describe the controversy
An article about a controversial person or group should accurately describe their views, no matter how misguided or repugnant. Remember to ask the question, "How can this controversy best be described?" It is not our job to edit Wikipedia so that it reflects our own idiosyncratic views and then defend those edits against all comers; it is our job to be fair to all sides of a controversy.
This has been inserted and will be expanded and integrated.
Please be clear that the Wikipedia neutrality policy certainly does not state, or imply, that we must "give equal validity" to minority views in a controversyBold text
It's difficult to establish if Positive Only viewpoints, although popular, are the generally accepted dog training standard within the industry. How is that measured? Although there is a distinct "following" for this viewpoint, that does not necessarily make it the standard or most widely accepted one, in spite of the fact that many involved may have degrees or be published.
Main Entry: 1par·ti·san
Variant(s): also par·ti·zan /'pär-t&-z&n, -s&n, -"zan, chiefly British "pär-t&-'zan/
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French partisan, from north Italian dialect partian, from part part, party, from Latin part-, pars part
1 : a firm adherent to a party , faction, cause, or person; especially : one exhibiting blind, prejudiced, and unreasoning allegianceBold text
Positive Only trainers/behaviourists may represent partisan points of view. The description alone may convey this. It appears obvious from statements by Cesar Millan-who advocates seeking other professional help-of no specific viewpoint that he has a wide perspective on training.
Information available solely on partisan websites or in obscure newspapers should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all. Information found in self-published books, newspapers, or websites/blogs should never be used, unless written by the subject (see below). Self explanatory.
'The views of critics should be represented if their views are relevant to the subject's notability and are based on reliable sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to side with the critics' material. Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one.''''Bold text' If the criticism represents the views of a tiny minority, it has no place in the article.
''Italic text
''When writing an article on most topics in Wikipedia, simple declarations of fact and received opinion do not need to be sourced; indeed, it would be cumbersome to burden a writer with the onus of providing documentary proof for every assertion.
However, when dealing with potentially contentious topics, such as in the field of religion or current affairs, a lot more care has to be taken. The more at variance from commonly accepted notions an assertion is, the more rigorously it should be documented. Keep the following things in mind:
[edit] Be careful with weasel words
The term "weasel words" refers to expressions such as "is claimed", "is thought to be", and "is alleged." While these may be legitimate rhetorical devices, they should be carefully scrutinized to ensure that they are not used to insert hidden bias, since claimed implies that the claim may not be true and that there is some reason to doubt it. For example:
* ...is widely thought to be the work of... (good) * ...who claimed they were forced from their homes... (bad--It's quite possible the people described were forced from their homes. )
comments regarding below: The lines removed apply according to the guidelines above. There is nothing untrue in the statement. It is the "partisan" Positive Only viewpoint that disputes this. In addition to "pet dog" trainers and owners there are hundreds of trainers and owners involved in herding, protection work, hunting, formal obedience and other specialized fields.
What is the industry mainstream standard? My background and experience tell me it is not Positive Only.
This faction may be more active and outspoken and receive more media coverage. Tintina 18:59, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Removed the lines: "For the most part, Cesar Millan's methods have been welcomed by the professional dog training and dog behaviour community. His support base includes various dog trainers, rescue groups, veterinarians, and other dog-related organizations and professionals."
Reason: The following paragraph shows this not to be true by citing 4 different experts in the " professional dog training and dog behaviour community." I moved the two supporters of Millan the poster cited (without sources) further down in the section as they seem to be in the minority.
Removed sections referencing "purely positive" and "positive only" trainers as being the only critics of Millan's techniques, as this is simply untrue and highly misleading. And on 1/22/07 ONCE AGAIN removed the reference to operant conditioning methods being popularized by Karen Pryor through the use of clicker training. Positive reinforcement methods were, in fact, popularized by Ian Dunbar and not through the use of clicker training. Clicker training is ONE TYPE of positive training, and not all positive training falls under clicker training.
It would be really nice if you would sign your posts:>)and perhaps even create an identity so that your commitment to a NPOV and this article could be determined.
I will DILIGENTLY watch and edit this article to maintain a NPOV and other Wiki guidelines and policy. Typically in a discussion of differing POV the positive is expressed first and the detraction second. As per wiki guidelines:IF anything, the article should reflect positive RATHER than negative. This is a living person BIOGRAPHY and a news outlet.
The media may focus on controversy over a celebrity. It obviously sells more papers, mags when that is the case. That is not an indication that they are the majority or mainstream and I will argue the point that primarily PO are not the main detractors. This should especially be adhered to in a Biography of living person.
I would think that the show being in its third season and his book reaching bestseller status would be an "indication" of mainstream thought and the overall opinion and reception is positive..
Let's keep this in perspective.
Ian Dunbar may have initiated this but I believe Karen Pryor "popularized it, with Don't Shoot the Dog.
Initiation and popularization are two distinct processes.
The PO are the MAIN critics. clear identification of what rates as notable should be followed. Jean Donaldson is a prime example of PO critic. Tintina 22:17, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Obviously this is still a work in progress and for my part I intend to continue on the intro.condensing some info and adding other. The intro should be a synopsis of the entire article and that is what I am aiming for.
in line with BLP guidelines, what is noteworthy today may not be noteworthy 5 or 10 years from now.
I think the controversy section must be handled in an extremely neutral way, criticisms from opponents can of course be included..with the "weasel word" caveat and attention to partisan critics.
Rather than extracting "hot" phrases, quotes should remain intact. As for People Magazine..it is a Celebrity gossip magazine.
Other comments: Cesar Millan's primary role or profession at this time is working with dogs. Where he goes from here is anyone's guess, but that is main contribution at present.
Although I am a new contributor, I have taken the time to log in and identify myself.I have, and still am familiarizing myself on the guidelines and policies. I ask politely that those who only pop in without a commitment, please do not revert or change editing in progress without comment.
It may seem that I have done the same, but I have not. I have created an account and although initially didn't recognize the comment area, now try to use it diligently.
The other question I have is source for the other BIO information, Early childhood etc.
Has it been taken directly from Cesar's book?
Tintina 23:40, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
the controversy section as it stands seems heavy to me. I am going to ask for a Wiki review of this article for opinion on it. Tintina!
I'll post my question and response as I don't know if it can be accurately linked.
I believe this is the core of maintaining a NPOV on Cesar Millan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesar_Millan
I have posted a link below, if you are reading and responding to this, you might the lower article first.
"essentially contested concept is one where there is widespread agreement on an abstract core notion itself (e.g., "fairness"), whilst there is endless argument about what might be the best instantiation, or realization of that notion.[4]Some of the notability of this person revolves around this issue. (controversy) He is in a profession of diverse opinions. He has reached celebrity status.
Although I have internet articles that support that this is indeed the case, there is no published media that describes the issue itself. Controversy is not over a fundamental issue but how that issue should be treated or resolved. The scope of the discussion is a topic in itself and perhaps that is the best way to handle it..if I can think of a title..other than Dog Training (which has been transwikied to wikibooks, prematurely in my mind.)Can I use internet articles that describe the controversy (essentially contested concept)as there is no other source material that does (that I know of)and I have been researching this for some time (years) prior to editing this article.
I'll provide a link to an overview which I feel reflects this accurately. http://www.puppywishes.com/1601-puppies/Cesar%20Millan%20Vs%20Jean%20Donaldson.html
I feel that any controversy around him should be explained and placed in its proper context. I attempted to do this but an anon user reverted and changed my edit.There is no current discussion other than my own comments.
I would like to proceed with cleaning up this article, but I'm not clear on how to handle it.
Thank you Tintina 05:42, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
there is no published media that describes the issue itself - then the controversy (issue) is NOT notable and anything you do to describe or summarize it is a violation of WP:NOR.
As to the larger issue of "cleaning up" the article, you should follow Wikipedia:Resolving disputes, which lays out the process, starting with informal discussions (talk page) and up through Arbitration Committee action. It's exceptionally rare, of course, for the latter to be needed. Please (a) follow Wikipedia policies and guidelines - for example, WP:RS with respect what sources are acceptable, and WP:NOR, and (b) abide by what the majority of other editors believe should be done (or not), because no single editor is infallible. -- John Broughton | (♫♫) 00:26, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Of course there may in fact be source material on the ISSUE itself that I have not come across or am aware of.
I feel like I'm talking to myself here, but am documenting my thoughts anyway.
Until such time as this material related to contention on the issue (not comments from critics alone) I feel that critics should be noted as such without mention of "controversy" in the article itself. There are many references to such a controversy. As per John Broughton's comments above until reliable source material is provided it does meet Notability standards for inclusion as such, thus Controversy heading renamed as Critics.
Tintina 23:00, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Reverted page blank vandal noted as 206.111.238.34 may have accidentally blanked page or not known how to revert. Actual vandal is 206.107.104.93 has been reported and has several warnings on user page.
2 minor edits were reverted.
see separate discussion on OR pending —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tintina ( talk • contribs) 22:24, 24 January 2007 (UTC). yep thanks, I was distracted for a moment Tintina 22:35, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
How does one even start to fix this and is it even worth it?
Tintina,
All internet snarkiness aside, you need to calm down. I am not saying this to belittle or to condescend, but your edits are boardering on the hysterical. Please, when editing, look at the format of other bios on wiki to see how they flow. You seem to be in such a passionate defense of Mr. Millan, that you want to push or cut down anything you perceive as negative. He is controversial. The previous edits had a good balance of both the "positive" and "negative". Now we have a compleletley irrevelent list of EVERY time he has been on TV, a section called "Philantophy" which talks about his wife, and every other source link seems to lead to Cesar Millan's site.
As it stands now, the article looks like a poorly written advertisement for Mr. Millan's Dog Centers.
"above by anon user"
Hello,anon commenter, If you review the history you will see that I have not contributed to the bulk of the article. As this is a BIOGRAPHY of Cesar Millan, obviously he is the subject, the controversy is not the subject.
Please keep in mind the article is "in progress" and takes time and effort to rework.
I did not make the lists or philanthropy sections. Nor did I add the links to his site.
As for positive/negative I am following the wiki policy and guidelines on BLP and take the time to ask questions regarding such at the Village Pump. If you read through the discussion, explanations are provided. Any further constructive comments are welcome. Tintina 17:55, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
You added a parargraph that makes it seem that "dog whispering" is an actual profession and not some marketing term made up by Cesar Millan's manager and now exploited by one of your cited references -samthedogtrainer.com. To try to make this credible, you created a seperate article titled "dog whispering" where you just cut and pasted one paragraph from samthedogtrainer.com.
I was going to edit this entry, but I'm too busy finishing my book "The Cat Whisperer". It's a follow up to "The Fish Whisperer". My next book will be called "The Open Heart Surgery Whisperer", in which I take a fresh new approach to whispering.
When the wikis are written about me, I know I can count on you Tintina to help me strech reality just a bit to fit my needs! You can have three whole new articles to make! Maybe an entire sub-catergory of just all kinds of whisperers!
Yes, Dog Whispering IS a profession and Cesar Millan was not the first dog whisperer. Paul Owens and Jan Fennel are others who were practicing this profession well before Cesar's show. There are others, less well known.
In 1998 The Horse Whisperer was a movie that came out starring Robert Redford. I believe it loosely followed the life of Monty Roberts, a very well known Horse Whisperer. Tintina 02:25, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
On Cesar's offical MySpace page, his astrological sign in given as Virgo. A May 12th birth date as listed on the Wiki bio would makes him incorrectly a Taurus. I doubt Cesar would incorrectly state his own astrological sign on his official site. http://www.myspace.com/cesarmillan —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.62.95.95 ( talk) 04:13, 19 February 2007 (UTC).
Gotta Love Cesar Millan!:]
He is making a difference on how people treat their dogs and puppies! Keep up the fantastic work!
The SPCA should really look at themselves before criticizing Millan's methods. I've seen an episode which documents what they do on Animal Planet, and there was a case where there were maybe 100+ feral cats living in an abandoned home. The SPCA went in there, took all the cats out, and because they were unable to adopt them all out (maybe because of lack of interest from outsiders, or due to financial issues), they decided to "humanely" euthanize most if not all of the cats. Might as well have left the cats to live on their own in this abandoned home. No one seemed to mind except he SPCA. Almost as bad as the Chinese government taking countless (POSSIBLY diseased) dogs right from their owners on the streets and beating them dead (right in front of them). Almost as bad as PETA. 24.23.51.27 23:14, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I have to say I 100% agree on this, although I'm coming from an angle of not necessarily the SPCA who have criticisms of him, but shelters and rescues who won't even try to rehabilitate most aggressive dogs because they erroneously believe that it simply cannot be done. How many dogs are dying because they're living in ignorance of what is possible, then they have the nerve to say that Cesar is abusive? If more people learned Cesar's methods less dogs would die in shelters. That's why the Millan foundation exists, and it isn't just with dogs. There's so much bad stuff that happens in this world because people simply do not know any better, and God forbid anyone tell them that they're wrong. - Aqhillie ( talk) 18:48, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
In Spanish, the "ll" is pronounced like "y" in English. So I wonder if he has simply adopted an anglicized version of his last name, so that it is pronounced "Mee-LAHN" instead of "Mee-YAHN". It's a small point, but it is worth clarifying if some source can be found about it. Though I doubt that, almost nothing else in this article is sourced... Grand master ka 01:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
This name is mentioned in the "Media Fame" section, but there's no explanation of who he is. I intend to delete the mention in another week unless someone else provides at least a few words of explanation. HiramShadraski 17:22, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Why is the category "LGBT People from Mexico" attached to this article? There's no mention of Millan being gay; in fact, his wife is mentioned in a couple of places. I intend to delete this category link in another week unless someone can show me why I should not. HiramShadraski 17:22, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I think we have to post all the pros and cons of the subject, in this case, Cesar Millan. If you post only the critics part, you are misguiding people to a wrong conclusion about him, so, is like manipulating the article. Is because of this that I want to post a prises part on the article (or delete the critics one). I don't have any interest in making Cesar look more atractive, since I'm from Spain and don't have any link with him, but I think we have to try to make articles look neutral.
--
Emongeca7 (
talk)
10:44, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't think we have to go to a dispute for this matter, but with the "critics" part alone, you know the article is very biased. Regards -- Emongeca7 ( talk) 15:31, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I saw a show recently where he mentioned his spirituality, but he was vague. Does anyone know if he's religious and if so what religion? Thanks. Alexwoods ( talk) 01:43, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a soapbox to criticize groups, individuals, behaviors or correction techniques you don't agree with.
Factual statements about the criticisms of Millan are consistent with Wikipedia guidelines. Opinions, however, are not. As such, "Millan's technique of using a choke collar is outdated and outrageous." is an opinion, even if it is held by an authority. "Millan has been criticized by Mr. Authority for his use of choke collars." is a factual statement that includes no weasel words or opinions.
I deleted all value judgements and opinions, even if they were part of a quote from an authority. Because the debate is relevant, I left the facts. -- Thesoxlost ( talk) 01:21, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
The page was recently edited to state that Millan is a "behavioralist." It was stated that a trainer trains dogs to do tricks; a behavioralist teaches the owners. 1. Behavioralism is a school of political science. Perhaps it has been used in the context of animal behavior, but not widely. This is not a good description of Cesar. 2. Behaviorism is an outdated school of psychology that argues that we should be studying the concrete, measurable aspects of psychology: behavior; and that internal, unobservable or introspective latent variables can not be studied scientifically. Behaviorism was replaced by cognitive psychology which allows for the study of internal, directly unobservable states (e.g., emotions, thoughts). The Animal Behavior Society uses Behaviorism in this sense. For instance, see this book written by ABS certified behaviorist: http://www.howdogslearn.com/. This is also not a good description of Cesar. 3. Animal Behaviorist also refers to an animal behavior specialist. Some have academic degrees ( http://www.petbehaviorist.com/pages/YODY.html) and no certification. There are a number of certifications, and they do not recognize each other. There is no objective standard, as there is for lawyers or medical doctors. 4. You do not need to be a member of APA in order to be a psychologist (in America). Many psychologists are not. You don't need to be recognized by a group in order to be a psychologist or animal psychologist or dog trainer. 5. Calling yourself a psychologist does not imply that you are a member of the APA. Nor does claiming that your a dog behaviorist imply that you are a member of any one of the numerous animal behaviorist certificate programs. Clearly, you aren't an astronaut just by saying you are; but you don't have to be certified by NASA in order to be one. 6. Dog training, according to the wikipedia article, includes obedience training, dog sport training and dog-owner training. It does not mean that you only teach a dog to heel. 7. Behaviorism, as a subfield of psychology, has a residual influence in psychology, but the term "behavorism" is now commonly used in a derogatory sense--along the same lines as phrenology--refering to psychological theory or psychologist that is comically behind the times. It really isn't an important honorific. Looking at the ABS list of "Animal Behavior" programs in the U.S., notice that they are all "Biological Science Department" or "Behavioral and Cognitive Psychology" departments. Behaviorism is dead.
-- Thesoxlost ( talk) 18:44, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
There's a nintendo DS game based on Ceaser Millan and the Dog Whisperer show. I think it should have some sort of mention in the media section or something. Anyway, just bringing it up. 10:07, 17 January 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.118.74.213 ( talk)
An editor just moved the article to "César Millán" from "Cesar Millan". However I checked his official website, [8], and found he spells his name without accents. Other sources also spell his name without accents. [9] So I moved the article back. If anyone has a different view let's discuss it before moving the article again. Will Beback talk 05:40, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
the criticism section is not up to par yet.
i also think there should be some mention of the fact that he is training people at least as much, if not more than, the dogs. this seems sourceable.
i recommend an NPOV tag. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.214.125.15 ( talk) 06:46, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Hi,
I removed a bit about the AHA retracting their disapproval, because I checked the source and couldn't find the claim. Was my bad (sorry), it was in the embedded video at the bottom. It was Milan himself, however, which seems a strange source! I tried to find other sources for retraction to no avail. But then... I tried to find the original article on the AHA's site, and that's gone as well! Tacit retraction?! The article's still available on other sites, but it's strange it's not on their own. I sent off a quick email to the AHA to ask if they retracted - I know that's not usable as a source, but I'm just interested!
Btw, I get the feeling that, in an attempt to make the overall criticism section seem more level, a large Dodson comment was inserted that was apparently in agreement with Milan. IMHO to make things more even you need to find authorities who vouch for Cesar! I read both cited articles by Dodson and he's basically dead set against those kinds of techniques, and he's for what he describes as 'non-confrontational'. An appropriate quote: 'I work on the theory that if you can train a killer whale to launch itself out of a swimming pool, roll on its side and urinate into a small plastic cup, given only a whistle and a bucket of fish, without a choke chain, then you don’t need those confrontational techniques with dogs.' As I say, I really felt it was an unfair assessment of Dodman to have a small line about his disapproval, and a huge para about his apparent agreement, when he seems fundamentally opposed. My two cents. Jburbell ( talk) 04:01, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
are we sure that most of the stuff about helping dogs is philanthropic as such? How about philcanine? 147.188.27.27 ( talk) 13:29, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
this section reads like a promotional brochure, and I'm not sure that donations of $5000 are really noteworthy in this kind of detail. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.26.176.12 ( talk) 20:28, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
These sections are largely unreferenced and hence, don't belong. As they exist currently, they are original research. 842U ( talk) 10:24, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Cesar Millan guest starred as himself in episodes of the television programs Bones on September 17, 2008, and Ghost Whisperer on March 30, 2007. There have been references to Cesar Millan or Dog Whisperer in X-Play, the King of the Hill episode "Doggone Crazy", The Venture Bros season 4 premier, and the comic strips " Blondie" and " Bizarro". Tegan and Sara mention the show in one of their video chapters for their album, The Con. Millan was parodied in the season 10 episode of South Park, Tsst, and in the chapter "The Cat Whisperer" of Tom and Jerry Tales. [1]
A mobile phone game called "My Dog Coach: Understand Your Dog With Cesar Millan" was released in 2008 [2].
Marj ( talk) 02:29, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Information on Daddy's death http://www.upi.com/Entertainment_News/TV/2010/02/22/Cesar-Millans-dog-Daddy-dead-at-16/UPI-25321266890353/ may be more appropriate here than under "Program Format" in Dog Whisperer —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mdk572 ( talk • contribs) 03:33, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
An editor has added this article to an illegal immigrant category, but I don't see any mention of that in the article. Do we have a source for it? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:15, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
He did cross the border illegally. He was an illegal immigrant for a while, but is now a legal resident. I undid the category change mainly because the editor removed a valid category to add the illegal immigrant category. Even if the illegal immigrant category is valid, deleting the other category is vandalism. -- Thesoxlost ( talk) 23:38, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
As I understand it, Category:Illegal immigrants to the United States
[11] is a subcategory of Category:American criminals
[12]. The category currently has 3 people on it, namely the subject of this biographic article and two mass murderers. It is important that we make sure that the criteria for adding this category be met. That criteria is spelled out on the parent category page, and is as follows (see
[13]):
For inclusion in this category, a person must:
This is a fairly rigorous standard. Does the subject of this biography satisfy these criteria? -- Ramsey2006 ( talk) 02:28, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Will, César stated on his TV program (I heard him myself) that he first entered the USA illegally. However, that does not make him a criminal since he was not arrested. He was young and made a mistake, a common one among young people in México who have ambitions for a better life. He is now a naturalized citizen of the USA. I'm certain there must be a primary source for this information, either the DVD or a transcript for the TV show in question. There may even be a secondary source that probably copies this primary source. If you wish to make an edit due to lack of citation, that is your right. However, you now know that a source exists, even if we can't get it without spending money. David Spector 03:43, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
The link # 36, under the sources or external links, needs to be updated. Here's the new link with the quote that was paraphrased: http://www.americanhumane.org/about-us/newsroom/news-releases/dog-training-symposium.html It contains the part where American Human invites Cesar Millan to a national meeting amongst professionals, stating that despite their differences in views, they have many similarities in their goals, etc., all in that new link. I'm not very familiar with Wikipedia yet, if anyone could help me update that link, would be appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.85.201.41 ( talk) 02:17, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
The selective use of out of context quotes, the misrepresentation of the point of view of sources, and the over reliance on the article subject as a source of information may have compromised the neutrality of this article. Marj ( talk) 00:29, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
In one specific example of the biased use of references, the article says:
Criticism and response
Dr. Nicholas Dodman, an animal behavior pharmacologist and the director of the Animal Behavior Clinic at Tufts University's Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine, contended in a February 2006 article for the New York Times that Millan had set dog training back considerably.[30] Dodman agrees, however, that the most important preventative measure people can take to help avoid behavioral problems in their pets would be to provide leadership. “ Leadership is very important because of the pack mentality of dogs. If you are the leader, I don’t think that the dog is unhappy about having you as the leader ... They don’t care about being at the top of the hierarchy, they just need to know where they are in it."[31]
Apart from using the dismissive "contended" which connotes a disputed point of view, this quote misrepresents Dodman who is a public and vocal critic of Millan, implying a level of support for his methods that does not exist.
Marj ( talk) 07:58, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
I've added Mizabot auto-archiving to this talk page, please let me know if anyone objects. Dreadstar ☥ 22:22, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
I removed this quote "...your message has profound implications and takes our knowledge that nothing exists in the universe except thought and energy to a new level. If the human species destroys itself, it will be because of its disposition to follow unstable pack leaders. And, if diplomacy could be carried out with calm assertiveness and calm submission, we could resolve our differences without aggression. Your mission to teach the people in third-world countries to offer reciprocal fulfillment could, indeed, bring world peace. For if love nurtures the state of mind and only the calm and submissive are fed, then the whole paradigm of human behavior shifts," says Adrian S. Windsor Ph.D from Inside Edge."
Reason: The quote was pulled from Millan's dog psychology website and seems to be used as a marketing tool and does not specifically address his methods. Acoording to her website, Adrian S. Windsor Ph.D is a Real Estate Broker, who holds a doctorate in Literature from the University of Michigan and is the author of the book "Seven Tools to Transform Genius into Practical Power" http://www.adrianwindsor.com/
Perhaps when writing about Cesar Millan we should follow Wikipedia's guidelines for Reliable sources:
"Scholarship
Wikipedia relies heavily upon the established literature created by scientists, scholars and researchers around the world. Items that fit this criteria can always be considered reliable. However they may be outdated by more recent research, or controversial in the sense there are alternative scholarly explanations. Wikipedia articles should point to all major scholarly interpretations of a topic.
The material has been thoroughly vetted by the scholarly community. This means published in peer-reviewed sources, and reviewed and judged acceptable scholarship by the academic journals. Items that are recommended in scholarly bibliographies are preferred. In articles on religions and religious practices, religious scholars (recognized authorities on the religion) are considered reliable sources for the religion's practices and beliefs, and traditional religious and academic views of religious practices should generally both be cited and attributed as such when they differ.
Non-scholarly sources
Some criteria that can assist editors in evaluating non-scholarly sources:
Attributability—The more we know about the originator, either organisation or individual, of source material, the better. This helps us measure of the authority of the content: Expertise of the originator about the subject—An academic expert in one subject is more reliable when writing about that subject than when writing about another. For example, a biologist is more reliable when writing about biology than when writing about nuclear physics. Bias of the originator about the subject—If an author has some reason to be biased, or admits to being biased, this should be taken into account when reporting his or her opinion. This is not to say that the material is not worthy of inclusion, but please take a look at our policy on Neutral point of view. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources
These sections are about Cesar Millan the man - not the program Dog Whisperer
Millan has been featured twice on the Oprah Winfrey Show, [3] [4] as well as on ABC World News Tonight (2002), CBS-TV (2001), Channel 7 News (May 2005), CNN (April 2006), Creative Arts Emmys 2006 (August 2006), Entertainment Insider (December 2004), Good Day Live (February 2005), Good Morning America With Diane Sawyer (September 2004), KTLA-TV (2002), Last Call with Carson Daly (November 2006), Martha Stewart Show (April 2006), Megan Mullally Show(November 2006), Nightline (July 2006), NBC-TV (2001), Today Show (April 2006), Tonight Show With Jay Leno (February 2005), The View (July 2006), WUSA-TV 9 News (April 2006), season 4 of Kathy Griffin: My Life on the D-List.
In 2005, the Humane Society of the United States Genesis Award Committee presented Millan with a Special Commendation for his work in rehabilitating animals, and in 2007 he was awarded the Michael Landon Award for Inspiration to Youth Through Television. [5] In 2008, Millan was recognized as a "Treasure of Los Angeles" for his contributions to the City of Los Angeles. [6]
The sentence relating to the warnings ("Each episode contains repeated warnings that viewers should not try some of the behavior modification techniques at home") isn't supported by the reference. I've seen the show and there is definitely a warning of some sort, possibly at the beginning of each segment (each new dog, set of dogs, etc). I was under the impression that the warning was more like "don't do this without consulting a professional." I'll try to locate the text of the actual warning -- in which case it may be more appropriately presented in the Dog Whisperer article rather than here. 842U ( talk) 13:45, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
For what it's worth, the Dodman quote is correct, and the NYT article includes this statement by Dodman: Dr. Dodman said: My college thinks it is a travesty. We've written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years. 842U ( talk) 11:59, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Dr. Nicholas Dodman, an animal behavior pharmacologist and director of the Animal Behavior Clinic at Tufts University's Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine, contended in a February 2006 article for the New York Times that Millan had set dog training back considerably. [FOOTNOTE: "C'mon, Pooch, Get With the Program". The New York Times, Anna Bahney, February 23, 2006. February 23, 2006. Retrieved April 28, 2010.
Dr. Dodman said: My college thinks it is a travesty. We've written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years.
Dodman's qualificaton that he's an animal pharmocologist got removed again from the article, so I added two ref's with quotes in the reference citations:
And this:
In other words, if Dodman is at the forefront of the pet drug movement, it's not implausible he might have a bias against someone promoting dog excercise as the primary solution to dog behavioral problems. 842U ( talk) 11:40, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
While I'm certainly no fan of Cesar Millan's, I believe the paragraph and reference I removed via this edit was in violation of WP:ELNO and possibly WP:BLP. I'd like to hear what other editors have to say about that, however. Mark Shaw ( talk) 19:32, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
The article discusses how he illegally crossed the border from Mexico to America, yet in the introductory paragraph of his biography he is called a "Mexican-American." Shouldn't he then be called an "American immigrant of Mexican descent"? - Cactusjump ( talk) 00:32, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
Anyone tell me what that is, and why every mention of the subject on any TV station anywhere should be notable? While were at it, "many" isn't very encyclopedic. "Some" is. 99.245.37.46 ( talk) 20:28, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
I'd rather we find a better source than a PR webpage like www.dogwelfarecampaign.org. What makes this a reliable source that meets WP:BLP? Seems a poor source to me, but perhaps there's more to it than I've been able to find..who edits it, do they have a "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy"? This is a BLP, we need to be "very firm about the use of high-quality sources". Sure, it says it's a charity and that it's supported by several groups of dog welfare charities and other orgs, but does this make it a reliable source per WP:BLP standards...? I'm not sure... Dreadstar ☥ 22:47, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
I don't look at sources that way, in that, my opinion doesn't matter. I looked for oversight, I looked for authorship and the site is conspicuously devoid of both which in itself is odd. Mind you, I've seen some odd things on Wikipedia and on the internet in general so nothing, very little :O) surprises me. At any rate its not compliant by our standards so out it should go. My opinion any way.(
Littleolive oil (
talk)
17:31, 1 March 2014 (UTC))
Thanks, but the spelling with one 'l' redirects to this page so that shouldn't have been a problem. I've requested help at WP:RSN#Dogwelfarecampaign.org where I added [16] as a balanced source, a response and some criticism from the editor of Dogs Today, owned by the Daily Mail. Dougweller ( talk) 16:13, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
Yin is a woman by the way. She is selling courses that support her version of how dogs should be trained so it is in her best interests to show how alternative methods-Milan's- do not work as well as what she is selling. I'd add that in this article we have a summary created from content on the TV show, the mother article, so consistent practice would indicate adding content on the TV show should be to the mother article, not here. The comment made on the BLP/NB is apt. Content on Milan should summarize criticism and should not be a list of complaints from trainers in alternative methods. This comment was made per this article, a BLP, where we should be stringent about what and why we add content.( Littleolive oil ( talk) 19:00, 2 March 2014 (UTC))
What guidelines say that criticism if it concerns the methods he demonstrates on his TV show should not be in the article? This article already says "the program demonstrates Cesar Millan's application of his philosophy that healthy, balanced dogs require strong 'pack leadership' from their owners, specifically in the form of exercise, discipline and affection (in that order)". Why can't we have criticism of that in the article? I'd be happy to have it integrated into the section on his show rather than in the controversy section. Dougweller ( talk) 18:51, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
Regarding the Yin source, every video example and every comment by Yin about Cesar is about the show and what she saw on the show, it is not about his personal life, with absolutely nothing except for what she has seen on TV. Comments about the TV show belong in the article about the TV show, comments related to Cesar's Biography and his life belong here. Sure, being on TV is part of his life, but we only see bits and pieces of that - and we have an article on the show. Now if we had someone who was on set and was a good WP:RS who saw and wrote about it, that would be 'real life'. Not what you saw on TV. All we need in this BLP is a short summary of his show, which is already Here: Cesar_Millan#Dog_Whisperer_with_Cesar_Millan, that section can have a short summary of the criticism Millan has had on the show. There's no reason to repeat every single criticism from every single source about what people say they saw him do in his appearances on the show; all this BLP needs is a short summary in the section about the show. I think it would be UNDUE to do otherwise. Dreadstar ☥ 19:46, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
Scanning over the article, there are a few areas that I think are worth drawing attention to:
CorporateM ( Talk) 03:06, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
I don't think we have to source these appearances except to the stations themselves. In a sense these are primary sources giving information about themselves. We can trust the information is correct, and that, that rightness has oversight of the station itself. None of this is contentious.( Littleolive oil ( talk) 18:21, 8 March 2014 (UTC))
Millan appeared on the May 22, 2006 episode of
The Oprah Winfrey Show,
[7]
[8] as well as on
ABC World News Tonight (2002), CBS-TV (2001), Channel 7 News (May 2005), CNN (April 2006), Creative Arts Emmys 2006 (August 2006), Entertainment Insider (December 2004),
Good Day Live (February 2005),
Good Morning America With
Diane Sawyer (September 2004),
KTLA-TV (2002),
Last Call with Carson Daly (November 2006),
Martha Stewart Show (April 2006), Megan Mullally Show (November 2006),
Nightline (July 2006), NBC-TV (2001),
Today Show (April 2006),
The Tonight Show with Jay Leno (February 2005),
The View (July 2006),
WUSA-TV 9 News (April 2006), season 4 of the
Emmy Award winning reality show
Kathy Griffin: My Life on the D-List.
Millan guest-starred as himself in Ghost Whisperer in Season 2, Episode 18, "Children of Ghost". In the episode, Melinda ( Jennifer Love Hewitt) seeks out Millan for advice on how to help "Homer", Ghost Whisperer's Ghost Dog (from Season 1), cross over into the light.
A satirized version of Millan was portrayed in " Tsst", the May 3, 2006 episode of the Comedy Central animated series South Park, in Lianne Cartman enlisted his help in applying his principles to Eric Cartman.
Millan played himself in "The Finger in the Nest", the September 17, 2008, episode of Bones, helping the lead characters to determine if a location was used for dogfighting. Millan played himself in Beethoven's Big Break which premiered in cinemas on December 30, 2008, and the The Back-Up Plan, which was released April 23, 2010 in theaters. citation needed
Millan made a guest appearance as a judge on Episode 3 of the 10th season of The Apprentice and the April 27, 2011 episode of Jeopardy! [9]
( Littleolive oil ( talk) 18:16, 8 March 2014 (UTC))
Why would Esquire be an acceptable link for a BLP on a dog trainer? ( Littleolive oil ( talk) 23:36, 3 March 2014 (UTC))
Well, it's recently used as a source and I have concerns about its use here. Being critical is indeed not a reason to remove it, but what are they exactly commenting on and is it really a source for this BLP? Dreadstar ☥ 03:10, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
I think one of the biggest things our readers want to get out of this article is to know whether his methods are effective and humane, who has sanctioned his methods and who opposes them. We need the absolute highest quality of sources to do this well and it is probably the most important aspect of the article. If we are overly critical, it is a BLP problem, and if we are overly supportive, we are misleading our readers and encouraging animal abuse.
I think the media is a very weak source for this, because their job is grandstanding and storytelling, shock and awe. I wonder if there has been any sophisticated academic review of his techniques? I will take a look at some point, but if someone here has expertise on the topic, they may have an easier time finding the best possible quality sources. CorporateM ( Talk) 23:26, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Woot! No luck with an inter-library loan, but the reference desk pulled through. The Current Science article confirms what we already expected from weaker sources, that there is a widespread disapproval of Millan's techniques among professional dog trainers, who think he is abusive. However, the article cites a counter-view from an article in The New Yorker
If anyone can dig up The New Yorker piece, it might be worthwhile. CorporateM ( Talk) 19:33, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
Cesar Millan did a 10 episode series set in Spain that aired in channel cuatro ( http://www.cuatro.com) during 2012, titled "El líder de la manada" (The leader of the pack). Episodes are now available on the network's streaming site: http://www.mitele.es/programas-tv/el-lider-de-la-manada/ Maybe a native English speaker can add this to the main article? Segata128 ( talk) 17:35, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
The section on Pets is about dogs who "work". Work is a standard and common phrase used for animals who have specific and ongoing purposes as Border Collies do. In this case the section describes dogs who are working with Milan, have a specific purpose, and are not just pets. I'm not going argue over this heading , however, the heading title, "Working pets" is accurate per the content in the section and is in no way OR. ( Littleolive oil ( talk) 15:07, 19 September 2014 (UTC))
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edit request to
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216.59.120.210 ( talk) 16:56, 3 December 2014 (UTC) Millan died today as confirmed by major news media.
Not done - you might want to read
this report entitled
"Hoax Busted: Report on Popular 'Dog Whisperer' Cesar Millan's Death is False" -
Arjayay (
talk)
17:02, 3 December 2014 (UTC)