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Is "racially-charged" considered a contentious or value-laden label?( Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch) Marcinus PhD ( talk) 14:36, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
There are several issues with editorializing/impartial language in the larger ramifications section that needs correcting as well as additional citations. Specific locations for improvement have been noted. Marcinus PhD ( talk) 16:39, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
Racially charged -- wtf does that mean? Racist or not. White people policing this too? Ketlag ( talk) 23:21, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
That is some bullsh*t. "Racist," is considered "contentious/value-laded" to white people — DUH. Freaking hell, I thought this place was supposed to be above that? The incident was racist. Racially charged? GTFO with your PhD. Ketlag ( talk) 23:32, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
Well I respectfully disagree. "Wiki standard," or whatever you folk call it is precedent set by... I'm not going to complete that, but hope you understand. Wikipedia must ever evolve with the times and refuse to stick to convention, esp. when it comes to the use of the word "racist," to describe, wait for it, racist encounters. Anyway, I've shouted in this void far too long to realize how super editors and bureaucrats on this site refuse to change and continue in their blinded ways. Ketlag ( talk) 21:44, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
Consider moving the legislation section to its own article and then linking or including in related links. While related, it is not directly part of the topic of the article, which is the incident in Central Park. Marcinus PhD ( talk) 14:40, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
Incorporated into social ramifications section. Updated with additional details and 2 more references, but reference needed for link to George Floyd protests. A link to the bill language may also be useful. Marcinus PhD ( talk) 19:01, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
In subsequent references to the two main folks in this article, should we be referring to them as "Amy" and "Christian", as opposed to "Amy Cooper" and "Christian Cooper" or "Ms Cooper" and "Mr. Cooper"? Is there any sort of wikipedia standard when it comes to this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrisspurgeon ( talk • contribs) 01:42, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
I was wondering if it is really necessary to use the full name of Mrs. Cooper. As she is not a public person, I don't think that her name matters. It feels like public shaming... Is there a Wikipedia policy about privacy of non-public persons? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:67C:10EC:578F:8000:0:0:3F ( talk) 01:41, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Of course there should be a page for this. It's one of the most notable examples of a racist Karen trying to get a black man in trouble with police when he did nothing wrong--and her lies were recorded, so it's a matter of public record. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.162.105 ( talk) 19:16, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
If you don't see the individual fact supported in one sentence, tag it. Don't delete the entire paragraph. Especially when the rest is supported. And the fact is easily found by any editor seeking to improve the article. Let's work together logicially to build a better article. Not go around doing needless damage, like this. -- 184.153.21.19 ( talk) 05:06, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Here the above editor makes a number of more odd deletions. No good reason. None.
The only explanation is that the person making these deletions supports Amy Cooper. These deletions are clearly intended to minimize her racism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.162.105 ( talk) 19:20, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
[2] The NY Times has reported that Amy Cooper called the police a second time, and that should be added to the article. JDDJS ( talk to me • see what I've done) 16:22, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
This Bari Weiss podcast diligently puts the whole birdwatching incident into a completely new context.
It should be considered for updating this page. Gadly Circus (talk) 11:55, 5 August 2021 (UTC) Gadly Circus ( talk) 12:01, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
The last paragraph of article is almost incomprehensible to read, as of this moment:
"On May 25, 2021, Amy Cooper filed a lawsuit against her former employer, Franklin Templeton, alleging race discrimination under federal law, race and gender discrimination under the New York State and New York City Human Rights Laws, defamation, defamation per se, intentional infliction of emotional distress and negligence arising out of its statements and actions about her and the Central Park incident when it suspended her the day of the incident, fired her the next day, and subsequently made statements to media; and characterizing Christian Cooper as "a birdwatcher with a history of aggressively confronting dog owners in Central Park who walked their dogs without a leash. It was Christian Cooper's practice and intent to cause dog owners to be fearful for their safety and the safety of their dogs..."[36] Franklin Templeton said "We believe ... the company responded appropriately. We will defend against these baseless claims."[37][38]"
The paragraph should be rewritten, with the new details added. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Igotalottastuff ( talk • contribs) 13:09, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
Addition by A.J. on 9/11/21: I also heard the Bari Weiss podcast with reporter Kmele Foster, an objective black man. This Wikipedia article is presenting the early, presumptive version of the story and dismissing her claims as lies. It's far too subjective in hindsight (automatic theme of black as innocent victim of white). Very telling is the way his voice got meek once he started recording her, and he was unwilling to press charges because he knew he was the real aggressor. It comes down to a series of contextual details that were omitted in early reporting. Also, the close timing of the Floyd case worked against her in the court of public opinion, which is the problem with so many stories these days. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.22.113.182 ( talk) 09:22, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
I find it amazing that a guy 1) walks up to strange woman who's alone in the park; 2) starts with her over something minor; 3) says "I'm going to do what I want to do, but you won't like it," and 4) tries to lure her dog away. And SHE'S the bad one for feeling threatened. Carlo ( talk) 02:06, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
Important sources that add context: https://www.westsiderag.com/2020/06/10/the-tension-between-birdwatchers-and-dogwalkers-was-simmering-even-before-the-amycooper-incident https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/manhattancb7/downloads/pdf/minutes/2020/min05_20.pdf (page 18) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.211.210.207 ( talk) 08:26, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
The sentence
"The following day the company fired her from her job as head of the firm's insurance investment."
is awkwardly written. Perhaps she was head of the firm's insurance investment department? 2601:200:C000:1A0:B008:BB33:FE3:C147 ( talk) 15:45, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
It was proposed in this section that
Central Park birdwatching incident be
renamed and moved to
Central Park dogwalking incident.
result: Move logs:
source title ·
target title
This is template {{
subst:Requested move/end}} |
Central Park birdwatching incident → Central Park dogwalking incident – The dog is a far more central focus of this event than birds. That is the animal both Coopers were interacting with. HearthHOTS ( talk) 06:43, 4 October 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. Rotideypoc41352 ( talk · contribs) 13:06, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
And whether the incident was mainly based on race is debatable- No, this is clearly based on race. Amy Cooper said, and this is quoted in the article, "There is an African American man—I am in Central Park—he is recording me and threatening myself and my dog. Please send the cops immediately!" There is extensive discussion of the controversy over Amy Cooper's comments in the "Reaction" section, particularly as it relates to race. The fact that Christian Cooper was watching birds is only tangential to the incident itself; that's just what he happened to be doing when the incident happened. – Epicgenius ( talk) 13:08, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
References
moved to Central Park racial incident. Also supported by reliable sources cited. #Post-move has made me aware of info not in the original discussion above, so I have reopened and relisted the move. Rotideypoc41352 ( talk · contribs) 13:06, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
I missed this, but would've opposed. Every time I've seen this, it highlighted the activity he was engaged in. Just searching/highlighting the source list for "bird" shows it's one of the most common words in the headline. The fact that he was engaged in a peaceful activity and its contrast with the tenor of her complaints jibed with the race-related discussions of the moment. Many publications framed it in that context as "birdwatching while black" ( [5] [6] for example). It even inspired Black Birders' Week. More importantly, while it was certainly a racial incident, there have been many racial incidents in/associated with Central Park, starting with, well... the creation of Central Park and demolition of Seneca Village. The Central Park Five comes to mind. There were the Central Park be-ins (granted, about racism), there were incidents of anti-Asian hate there in the last few years, and countless stories involving race that didn't cohere into a major story. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 12:56, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
On May 25, 2020, there was a confrontation between Amy Cooper, a white woman walking her dog, and Christian Cooper (no relation), a black man who was birdwatching, in a section of New York City's Central Park known as the Ramble.– Epicgenius ( talk) 14:24, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
more of a conflict between birdwatchers and dogwalkers, than whites and black- While I agree with the rest, the initial conflict may have started as a typical conflict between birders and off-leash dogwalkers, but escalated to a racial place. I don't think any of the coverage didn't mention race. But we do need something better to contextualize it, and that initial conflict (with a focus on the birdwatcher because it fits into a trend of black men put in threatening/deadly situations while doing something relatively mundane) provided the secondary framing that makes the incident easy to identify. As for what to do at this point, Rotideypoc41352, maybe the simplest way would be to let the RM run another week or so? You're also within your closer's prerogative to say "anyone is welcome to start a new move discussion whenever they want" and leave it as is. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 12:36, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
assuming that's what he was doing earlier[!?]. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 13:17, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
Only one e in judgment. 199.101.178.99 ( talk) 02:27, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
Removed conjecture/opinion from last sentence while keeping information. The judgment will be out soon enough, no need to extend the journalist's opinions of the proceedings into the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:569:74C7:FE00:C5D0:E775:AE3:6FE6 ( talk) 20:11, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
An editor has seen the need to revert my edit in which I included details from Bari Weiss's podcast episode (which was already included in the article), claiming those details somehow violated WP:NPOV. That seems an odd suggestion—especially as this C-class] article is obviously lacking in detail and context.
I fail to understand why a neutral point of view requires the exclusion of Kmele Foster's name—especially given that he was the interviewer for the episode (rather than, as many might assume from the current version, Bari Weiss).
Further, Foster spent months doing what has almost certainly been the deepest journalistic dive into this event, revealing a host of previously undiscovered and unreported information. This included interviewing Jerome Lockett, a black dog owner, who said he was intimidated and harassed by Christian Cooper—as were several of his white acquaintances, who were too afraid of being "canceled" to speak out.
This information has been cited by numerous RS—and it's not a "view" at all, but rather undisputed factual information—which is why I sincerely question on what basis it is unworthy of inclusion, let alone WP:UNDUE. Thanks kindly! ElleTheBelle 22:17, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
Something about https://www.newsweek.com/i-was-branded-central-park-karen-i-still-live-hiding-1839483 should probably be added to the article. Sorry, I don't feel up to doing it myself.
(To me, it feels like she's just confirming herself as a whiny Karen. And how smart is it, when most people had forgotten who she is, to remind us all? Never heard of the Streisand effect, or did she actively _want_ to invoke it?) CRConrad ( talk) 07:11, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
This "white" vs "African-American", this simply is irrational. Needs improvement. Tallard ( talk) 22:26, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Central Park birdwatching incident article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
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Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Is "racially-charged" considered a contentious or value-laden label?( Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch) Marcinus PhD ( talk) 14:36, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
There are several issues with editorializing/impartial language in the larger ramifications section that needs correcting as well as additional citations. Specific locations for improvement have been noted. Marcinus PhD ( talk) 16:39, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
Racially charged -- wtf does that mean? Racist or not. White people policing this too? Ketlag ( talk) 23:21, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
That is some bullsh*t. "Racist," is considered "contentious/value-laded" to white people — DUH. Freaking hell, I thought this place was supposed to be above that? The incident was racist. Racially charged? GTFO with your PhD. Ketlag ( talk) 23:32, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
Well I respectfully disagree. "Wiki standard," or whatever you folk call it is precedent set by... I'm not going to complete that, but hope you understand. Wikipedia must ever evolve with the times and refuse to stick to convention, esp. when it comes to the use of the word "racist," to describe, wait for it, racist encounters. Anyway, I've shouted in this void far too long to realize how super editors and bureaucrats on this site refuse to change and continue in their blinded ways. Ketlag ( talk) 21:44, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
Consider moving the legislation section to its own article and then linking or including in related links. While related, it is not directly part of the topic of the article, which is the incident in Central Park. Marcinus PhD ( talk) 14:40, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
Incorporated into social ramifications section. Updated with additional details and 2 more references, but reference needed for link to George Floyd protests. A link to the bill language may also be useful. Marcinus PhD ( talk) 19:01, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
In subsequent references to the two main folks in this article, should we be referring to them as "Amy" and "Christian", as opposed to "Amy Cooper" and "Christian Cooper" or "Ms Cooper" and "Mr. Cooper"? Is there any sort of wikipedia standard when it comes to this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrisspurgeon ( talk • contribs) 01:42, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
I was wondering if it is really necessary to use the full name of Mrs. Cooper. As she is not a public person, I don't think that her name matters. It feels like public shaming... Is there a Wikipedia policy about privacy of non-public persons? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:67C:10EC:578F:8000:0:0:3F ( talk) 01:41, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Of course there should be a page for this. It's one of the most notable examples of a racist Karen trying to get a black man in trouble with police when he did nothing wrong--and her lies were recorded, so it's a matter of public record. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.162.105 ( talk) 19:16, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
If you don't see the individual fact supported in one sentence, tag it. Don't delete the entire paragraph. Especially when the rest is supported. And the fact is easily found by any editor seeking to improve the article. Let's work together logicially to build a better article. Not go around doing needless damage, like this. -- 184.153.21.19 ( talk) 05:06, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Here the above editor makes a number of more odd deletions. No good reason. None.
The only explanation is that the person making these deletions supports Amy Cooper. These deletions are clearly intended to minimize her racism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.162.105 ( talk) 19:20, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
[2] The NY Times has reported that Amy Cooper called the police a second time, and that should be added to the article. JDDJS ( talk to me • see what I've done) 16:22, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
This Bari Weiss podcast diligently puts the whole birdwatching incident into a completely new context.
It should be considered for updating this page. Gadly Circus (talk) 11:55, 5 August 2021 (UTC) Gadly Circus ( talk) 12:01, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
The last paragraph of article is almost incomprehensible to read, as of this moment:
"On May 25, 2021, Amy Cooper filed a lawsuit against her former employer, Franklin Templeton, alleging race discrimination under federal law, race and gender discrimination under the New York State and New York City Human Rights Laws, defamation, defamation per se, intentional infliction of emotional distress and negligence arising out of its statements and actions about her and the Central Park incident when it suspended her the day of the incident, fired her the next day, and subsequently made statements to media; and characterizing Christian Cooper as "a birdwatcher with a history of aggressively confronting dog owners in Central Park who walked their dogs without a leash. It was Christian Cooper's practice and intent to cause dog owners to be fearful for their safety and the safety of their dogs..."[36] Franklin Templeton said "We believe ... the company responded appropriately. We will defend against these baseless claims."[37][38]"
The paragraph should be rewritten, with the new details added. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Igotalottastuff ( talk • contribs) 13:09, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
Addition by A.J. on 9/11/21: I also heard the Bari Weiss podcast with reporter Kmele Foster, an objective black man. This Wikipedia article is presenting the early, presumptive version of the story and dismissing her claims as lies. It's far too subjective in hindsight (automatic theme of black as innocent victim of white). Very telling is the way his voice got meek once he started recording her, and he was unwilling to press charges because he knew he was the real aggressor. It comes down to a series of contextual details that were omitted in early reporting. Also, the close timing of the Floyd case worked against her in the court of public opinion, which is the problem with so many stories these days. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.22.113.182 ( talk) 09:22, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
I find it amazing that a guy 1) walks up to strange woman who's alone in the park; 2) starts with her over something minor; 3) says "I'm going to do what I want to do, but you won't like it," and 4) tries to lure her dog away. And SHE'S the bad one for feeling threatened. Carlo ( talk) 02:06, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
Important sources that add context: https://www.westsiderag.com/2020/06/10/the-tension-between-birdwatchers-and-dogwalkers-was-simmering-even-before-the-amycooper-incident https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/manhattancb7/downloads/pdf/minutes/2020/min05_20.pdf (page 18) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.211.210.207 ( talk) 08:26, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
The sentence
"The following day the company fired her from her job as head of the firm's insurance investment."
is awkwardly written. Perhaps she was head of the firm's insurance investment department? 2601:200:C000:1A0:B008:BB33:FE3:C147 ( talk) 15:45, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
It was proposed in this section that
Central Park birdwatching incident be
renamed and moved to
Central Park dogwalking incident.
result: Move logs:
source title ·
target title
This is template {{
subst:Requested move/end}} |
Central Park birdwatching incident → Central Park dogwalking incident – The dog is a far more central focus of this event than birds. That is the animal both Coopers were interacting with. HearthHOTS ( talk) 06:43, 4 October 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. Rotideypoc41352 ( talk · contribs) 13:06, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
And whether the incident was mainly based on race is debatable- No, this is clearly based on race. Amy Cooper said, and this is quoted in the article, "There is an African American man—I am in Central Park—he is recording me and threatening myself and my dog. Please send the cops immediately!" There is extensive discussion of the controversy over Amy Cooper's comments in the "Reaction" section, particularly as it relates to race. The fact that Christian Cooper was watching birds is only tangential to the incident itself; that's just what he happened to be doing when the incident happened. – Epicgenius ( talk) 13:08, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
References
moved to Central Park racial incident. Also supported by reliable sources cited. #Post-move has made me aware of info not in the original discussion above, so I have reopened and relisted the move. Rotideypoc41352 ( talk · contribs) 13:06, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
I missed this, but would've opposed. Every time I've seen this, it highlighted the activity he was engaged in. Just searching/highlighting the source list for "bird" shows it's one of the most common words in the headline. The fact that he was engaged in a peaceful activity and its contrast with the tenor of her complaints jibed with the race-related discussions of the moment. Many publications framed it in that context as "birdwatching while black" ( [5] [6] for example). It even inspired Black Birders' Week. More importantly, while it was certainly a racial incident, there have been many racial incidents in/associated with Central Park, starting with, well... the creation of Central Park and demolition of Seneca Village. The Central Park Five comes to mind. There were the Central Park be-ins (granted, about racism), there were incidents of anti-Asian hate there in the last few years, and countless stories involving race that didn't cohere into a major story. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 12:56, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
On May 25, 2020, there was a confrontation between Amy Cooper, a white woman walking her dog, and Christian Cooper (no relation), a black man who was birdwatching, in a section of New York City's Central Park known as the Ramble.– Epicgenius ( talk) 14:24, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
more of a conflict between birdwatchers and dogwalkers, than whites and black- While I agree with the rest, the initial conflict may have started as a typical conflict between birders and off-leash dogwalkers, but escalated to a racial place. I don't think any of the coverage didn't mention race. But we do need something better to contextualize it, and that initial conflict (with a focus on the birdwatcher because it fits into a trend of black men put in threatening/deadly situations while doing something relatively mundane) provided the secondary framing that makes the incident easy to identify. As for what to do at this point, Rotideypoc41352, maybe the simplest way would be to let the RM run another week or so? You're also within your closer's prerogative to say "anyone is welcome to start a new move discussion whenever they want" and leave it as is. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 12:36, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
assuming that's what he was doing earlier[!?]. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 13:17, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
Only one e in judgment. 199.101.178.99 ( talk) 02:27, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
Removed conjecture/opinion from last sentence while keeping information. The judgment will be out soon enough, no need to extend the journalist's opinions of the proceedings into the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:569:74C7:FE00:C5D0:E775:AE3:6FE6 ( talk) 20:11, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
An editor has seen the need to revert my edit in which I included details from Bari Weiss's podcast episode (which was already included in the article), claiming those details somehow violated WP:NPOV. That seems an odd suggestion—especially as this C-class] article is obviously lacking in detail and context.
I fail to understand why a neutral point of view requires the exclusion of Kmele Foster's name—especially given that he was the interviewer for the episode (rather than, as many might assume from the current version, Bari Weiss).
Further, Foster spent months doing what has almost certainly been the deepest journalistic dive into this event, revealing a host of previously undiscovered and unreported information. This included interviewing Jerome Lockett, a black dog owner, who said he was intimidated and harassed by Christian Cooper—as were several of his white acquaintances, who were too afraid of being "canceled" to speak out.
This information has been cited by numerous RS—and it's not a "view" at all, but rather undisputed factual information—which is why I sincerely question on what basis it is unworthy of inclusion, let alone WP:UNDUE. Thanks kindly! ElleTheBelle 22:17, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
Something about https://www.newsweek.com/i-was-branded-central-park-karen-i-still-live-hiding-1839483 should probably be added to the article. Sorry, I don't feel up to doing it myself.
(To me, it feels like she's just confirming herself as a whiny Karen. And how smart is it, when most people had forgotten who she is, to remind us all? Never heard of the Streisand effect, or did she actively _want_ to invoke it?) CRConrad ( talk) 07:11, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
This "white" vs "African-American", this simply is irrational. Needs improvement. Tallard ( talk) 22:26, 1 December 2023 (UTC)