![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
CIA is now a GA, I passed it this morning, lets hope next I will be supporting it for FA status. Dep. Garcia ( Talk | Help Desk | Complaints ) 11:58, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
I just found some vandalism on the top of the page. It said "Salina's first period licks balls". I deleted it because I wasnt sure how to report vandalism. What should I do in a situation like this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lord Mandos ( talk • contribs) 15:43, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
The following was removed today:
68.92.157.24 05:57, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
The opening paragraph has huge criticism and bias. It is vandalism that needs to be removed. 69.255.52.186 14:01, 25 June 2007 (UTC) Nuclearmound
I have commented out the section on Indonesia until we can find sources that are more reliable than "workers.org" and "thirdworldtraveller.org" to support the material therein. I will try to find sources for this and would appreciate any help. Incidentally, is the Kadane piece (which the article does not cite in direct support of the CIA's involvement in Sukarno's overthrow) from Time? The footnote implies, but does not explicitly say that it is. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 23:43, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
IT takes over half the article. Since there are so many small bits here divided into separate events I suggest we move it into its own article to properly cover each one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.235.65.166 ( talk • contribs) 07:43, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Like all but a relative few CIA employees (I'm not including myself in that group by virtue of awkward sentence construction), I can't read Arabic. What did the poster who recently blanked this entire Talk page with the comment linked to in the footnote at the end of this sentence have to say to the rest of the world? [1] I presume it might have been critical of CIA, which is why I am posting in this section of the restored Talk page. Office of independent counsel 21:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
This page "about" the CIA tells me very little of the CIA. How about a separate page of CIA controversy, since that is what this one mostly is now? We could probably make a controversy page for the controversy page after that, too. That would be a great place for people to talk about how bad the CIA is, and the cameras that are placed in South American cereal boxes to enforce child labor for Starbucks in order to get oil from Iraq to compete with China and support Israel before they unfreeze Disney and use a hair from Hitlers mustache comb to obtain the DNA to replicate him so Bush can have an actual friend. 66.91.214.29 04:40, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Already mentioned here on Wikipedia: OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD. Why NOT here in THIS article ? 205.240.144.168 04:47, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I read the changes that Lars T. ( talk · contribs) made, including inserting this:
I don't see anything on the cited ref that would give the impression that the CIA's secondary function is what Lars T. says that it is. Additionally, I'd think that the use of the words "colossal" and "illegal" here would definitely NOT be NPOV, given that the issues referred to there are quite controversial. I'd suggest reverting back to a version of the article prior to the insertion of this paragraph. -- Folic Acid 18:41, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm very sorry for deleting the section without discussion before. However, I still have a problem with the second sentence. "Its secondary function is propaganda or public relations..." is presented as a fact, wheras the rest of the article speaks of the secondary function of propaganda as speculation. Also, it is not made clear if the propaganda is domestic or otherwise. Am I wrong? Either way, I thnk that sentence is very confusing. Phantombantam 07:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
A very simple look at the reference for the second sentence shows it is incorrect. Therefore, I think stating part of the CIA's mission is propaganda is misleading and should be removed. Consensus? Rcrossvs 07:10, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
The problem here is that the debate about whether or not the CIA maintains illegal prisons and tortures people is not a matter of point of view. It either happens or it doesn't happen. And it is not so difficult to determine whether or not it happens - just ask the people who have been tortured. It could be that they are lying - but again what is at stake is not their POV but the facts. One would have to check their story for internal constistency, for corroborating evidence etc... And obviously if the CIA were operating illegal jails and torturing people they would try to cover up these facts - so one would have to take into account the possibility of disinformation (lies). Recently in Canada we fired the head of CSIS (our counterpart to the CIA) because the CIA and CSIS had one of our citizens kidnapped and tortured by proxy. This is a matter of government record and is not POV. And the whole affair was rife with lying. This I will allow is not precisely the same as if the CIA tortured people themselves or maintaining jails themselves. But I am just beginning to read up on this situation - my suspicion however is that there will be plenty of evidence to back up the assertion that the CIA tortures and maintains or has maintained illegal jails. To reiterate: in cases like these we must determined to find out what the truth is, otherwise we will end up in the following absurd situation: A Reporter "It is Mr. Johnson's POV that he saw a dead body on the street - however this report is contradicted by Ms. Smith who's POV is that she did not see a dead body." We cannot let this situation stand we must determine to the best of our abilities which or whether both are lying. To leave this situation at the level of POV violates human dignity.Canuckistani 14:53, 20 August 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Canuckistani ( talk • contribs).
Many of the cia.gov links seem to be broken I replaced a couple, but coudn't find the updated URLs. There are a few more dead references. I'd replace them all with {{ Fact}}s, but can't find them since "Find" in most broswers will not search text fields. Phantombantam 07:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
http://www.foia.cia.gov/ and click "family jewels" in the second paragraph
This is a great source for a lot of fidel castro-type things. I'm not the best writer/editor so maybe somebody better then I can make use of this source. These are the recently declassifed documents. Very dirty stuff in there. Virek 11:57, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Leroy Fletcher Prouty is listed as a CIA whistle blower. Prouty worked for military intelligence and was never on the payroll of the CIA. John Geraghty —Preceding unsigned comment added by John geraghty ( talk • contribs) 19:35, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
The original text:
The order of the sentences gives the meaning that because restrictions were lifted, a violation of the Constitutional requirement may have occurred. In fact, the meaning should be that because the arrangements were made, a violation of the Constitutional requirement may have occurred. Also, the implication of the original text is that Congress and the President can overrule the Constitution. (The implication: SINCE Congress and President approved arrangements, then the critics' charge is invalid) Obviously, this is not correct.
The revised version then:
72.188.233.83 19:44, 11 August 2007 (UTC) KeepTheContext
I would like permission to add a section showing how the CIA contributes to the development of knowledge resulting in crucial Committee decisions. The example I would like to use is the The CIA input into the Committee on Foreign Relations resulting in the decision of Ranking Minority head Sen. Jesse Helms' letter to Boris Yeltsin which brought about the turnover by the Russian Federation of KAL 007's long hidden Black Box. Bert Schlossberg 89.138.147.180 10:30, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Is this really relevant? So the American and Iranian legislatures got in a name calling match; is this notable? I think it is neither; that it was stated by a notable entity (the Iranian parliament) does not by definition make it notable. Parsecboy 22:20, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Am I to take it that no one would object if I removed this section, on grounds of lack of notability or relevance? It's been over a week, and no one has replied here. I'll give it another day or two, and then remove the section in question. Parsecboy 19:19, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
A larger section was removed by the anon today: [2]
If it remains removed, maybe people can take sections from this and add it to the article later. Travb ( talk) 05:26, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
What do other editors think about the possiblity of eliminating all but a short one-paragraph mention of the current content of this section of the CIA article, and letting interested parties click on the Wikilink to the Robertson Panel main article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robertson_Panel
That is what is done with the ""Farewell Dossier" section directly below it, and it seems like a good solution from keeping the main article from becoming unwieldy. The Robertson Panel is pretty ancient history anyway, and fairly non-notable in terms of real historical importance, IMHO. Its lengthy inclusion in the main article also detracts from overall credibility, as prominent mention of UFOs brings in elements of fringe belief in all sorts of oddball conspiracy theories. Might as well include a section on Skull and Bones or " remote viewing" experiments if UFOs are given such lengthy treatment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by No barometer of intelligence ( talk • contribs) 19:30, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Since Operation Mockingbird is not the right context in which to talk about this, what would be a good article name for describing CIA and media/propaganda issues, without running into original research problems? Operation Mockingbird is simply not the place to do it, as that would be ahistorical (and I'm getting a lil bit tired dealing with the Operation Mockingbird conspiracy). CIA and the media might be a good name, but it is also the title of a Bernstein article dealing with this same issue [3], maybe not the way to go. Intangible2.0 02:19, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Since Operation Mockingbird is not the right context in which to talk about this, what would be a good article name for describing CIA and media/propaganda issues, without running into original research problems? Operation Mockingbird is simply not the place to do it, as that would be ahistorical (and I'm getting a lil bit tired dealing with the Operation Mockingbird conspiracy). CIA and the media might be a good name, but it is also the title of a Bernstein article dealing with this same issue [4], maybe not the way to go. CIA and propaganda is too strong a name; if it is propaganda, readers will find out by themselves reading the article. Intangible2.0 02:22, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
In the edit summary for this section renaming, I asked the question: "Should this section be summarized and broken out into a separate article?" and I repeat it here seeking input. I believe that all of the recent edits I have made to this section pass the WP:NOTE test, but I also acknowledge that Wikipedia is not Wikinews, and that this section is becoming long and is likely to grow with future news developments. Also, it falls entirely under the "Modern Controversies" main heading, so it might overly weight the main CIA article in that direction. What do other editors think? Something similar was done to break out the NSA warrantless surveillance controversy from the main National Security Agency article. I would be glad to write a summary of the current content of this section and then create a new Wiki-linked article including its entire contents if there is consensus for doing so. Alternately, if someone just wants to revert my renaming of the section heading and vote to leave things intact, that's fine with me, too. No barometer of intelligence 23:07, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I think Sdsds has pointed us in the direction of a solution with his/her addition of the Black site wikilink. This is a well-maintained, comprehensive article on this subject. It doesn't include some of the recent edits I've made here in this article, so if it's OK with other editors, I'll work at moving some of the non-duplicated newer content on this page into that article, write a summary for the main CIA article, and maybe change the:
to a
.... under the current section heading. Does that sound acceptable to others? No barometer of intelligence 23:34, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
There was no reaction to my suggestion above made 18 days ago, so I just kind of let it drop. I decided that I just wouldn't add anything more to this already lengthy section, but then General Hayden made some public comments about interrogation methods that only seemed fair to include a brief mention of. I am a little wary of trying to summarize this section and move some of its existing content to the Black Site article like I proposed. Someone went to all the trouble of adding nine citations to the statement, "Waterboarding is widely regarded as a form of torture," although footnotes 87 through 90 seem more like declarative statements rather than conventional citations of sources. I don't want to offend those editors by moving all of that work to another article, but this one is getting unwieldy, IMHO. Any ideas from anybody else? No barometer of intelligence 20:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
I raised this issue elsewhere on this page relative to the section of the article on detention, interrogation and rendition practices, but it seems to me that we should have a more global discussion of the article relative to the guidlines in WP:LENGTH. Does anybody else agree and want to take the lead on making specific suggestions on how to move some of the current content to other articles, either newly-created or of the previously-existing variety? No barometer of intelligence 18:06, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I got rid of GodspeedMach3's response in this thread because it was a copy of a remark he made in a seperate thread that had no bearing on the above conversation. I'm not really sure why it was copied into this section, but whatever, if Godspeed wants it put back, he's welcome to revert the edit.
Also, just to add me two cents in on this topic: I agree with Travb in that an article should not be shortened simply for the sake of keeping it from getting "too long." However, I don't think it's fair to compare this article to those of the wars above. Wars are, in a sense, a story in history, with a beggining, middle, and end. The CIA, however, is an organization, which has a definition. Definitions are inherently more concise than stories. I understand that a main page of the CIA has to have a history section (which will tell a story, in a sense), but even still, this history section is not meant to be a comprehensive history of every action taken by the CIA, that should be its own page, instead the history section should provide some main highlights to provide the reader with a general understanding of what the CIA is and does. For a good example of this, I would recommend anyone to look at the main page of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), which remains (relatively) clear, concise, and focused on providing the reader with a good understanding of what the FBI is and how it works.
In this light, I do believe that there is some information on this page that is not pertinent or appropriate for the organization's main page, and have proposed a fix. For more on this, please see below under Neutrality. ( 203.162.35.78 ( talk) 06:55, 27 November 2007 (UTC))
I would like to get the wikipedia communities opinion on this section:
Various media outlets have reported that people using CIA computers have edited Wikipedia. [1] Allegedly, employees of the intelligence agency altered biographical information contained in Wikipedia entries on former presidents including Ronald Reagan and Richard Nixon. When asked by the BBC whether it could confirm whether the changes had been made by a person using a CIA computer, an agency spokesperson responded, "I cannot confirm that the traffic you cite came from agency computers. I'd like in any case to underscore a far larger and more significant point that no one should doubt or forget: The CIA has a vital mission in protecting the United States, and the focus of this agency is there, on that decisive work." [2] Nevertheless, Wikipedia Scanner seem to show that workers on the agency's computers made edits to the page of Iran's president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. While other changes that have been made are more innocuous, and include tweaks to the profile of former CIA chief Porter Goss and celebrities such as Oprah Winfrey. The Iraq war article has also been edited by the CIA [3]. As is the case with all Wikipedia edits identifiable by WikiScanner to specific organization's computer networks (those in which a web anonymizer service has not been employed in the process), individuals can make such edits on their own initiative. Content appearing on Wikipedia has also been cited as a source and referenced in some U.S. intelligence agency products. [4] |
I have no problem moving the section, but removing several portions seems a little far. Travb ( talk) 00:02, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Has there ever been a case of anyone in the CIA ever being persecuted for any of these illegal crimes abroad? One thing that is missing in this article is the involvement of the CIA in Abu Grahib. Seems like the CIA has tacit immunity from any crime, is this correct or is there any case of a CIA officer being persecuted? Travb ( talk) 12:08, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Apart from some of the early sections of this article, I greatly question the neutrality of this article in its current state, particularly with regard to its sections on the CIA's clandestine actions. Given that this article is supposed to be encyclopedic (i.e., accurate) it seems rather odd to include a section on activities of an organization that are inherently unvarifiable. In particular, any perceived activity that comes as a result of the accusations of foreign government officials or journalists. Given that the CIA never addresses its media criticisms, and never provides evidence of its activities (whether damning or exonerating), the CIA is an easy target for random or even prepostrous accusations by just about anyone. Even foreign government officials can not be credible sources for these activities as it is often beneficial for them, from a domestic political perpsepctive, to convince their own people of the foreign enemy trying to destroy their government, whether based in fact or fiction, and the CIA is a perfect target for this given how well known it is around the world.
In addition, the wording of many sections needs some significant neutrality and varifiability cleaning. For example, "CIA guru" is not a position in any organization I've heard of; implying that the CIA ruined the culture of Guatemala is not a useful statement in an encyclopedia, and numerous uses of statements like "many authors have accused..." or other such poor citational practices greatly reduces the credibility of this article.
As such, I propose that all sections of this article referring to the actions or activities of the CIA be moved to a seperate article with "confirmed" CIA activities and "suspected" CIA activities. This main page should remain focused on that information which is more varifiable, such as the organizational structure and history. Any section in this article on "controversies" or "known activities" should focus on those activites that are declassified and/or publically investigated, such as the CIA's involvement in the Watergate Scandal, Iran/Contra, etc.
This type of article is very difficult for a piece of work like Wikipedia because it really tests the notion of a "credible source." Even respected journalists and academitions have been known to be quite wrong about the CIA and other secretive organizations. Another example of this, is the majority of academic works that have contemplated the CIA's actions have almost universally admitted the lack of hard evidence on almost anything that involves the CIA, and so there is really very little that can be said about the CIA with any kind of certainty. Unfortunately, the CIA's main page should, like other main pages, stick to that which is certain. ( 203.162.205.60 ( talk) 10:13, 26 November 2007 (UTC))
As some of you may have noticed, and as per the above discussion on Neutrality, I have moved a significant portion of the article to a new article, entitled Suspected and Confirmed CIA Operations. The reason for this is described in the discussion above, which I agree with, and no one has objected to.
As such, I have simply cut and pasted the old information into the new article. The new article, in my opinion, should be organized such that one section will list those operations, such as the Bay of Pigs, that have been openly admited to or confirmed by the CIA, and another section for those that have been reported on by various journalists, authors, etc. but not expressly admited to by the CIA. I would greatly appreciate help from the wiki community on this as I am by no means an expert on the CIA. ( Morethan3words ( talk) 13:39, 6 December 2007 (UTC))
I think moving Suspected and Confirmed CIA Operations is not a good idea. This is a predictable way of removing dissent, which I predicted would happen.
What concerns me is that CIA employees, probably screwing around at work, have edited Wikipedia ( See above).
Moving controversial information is a familiar tactic of apologists and wikiusers with Conflict of interests: Branch off the page, then bury it.
User:Morethan3words who moved this page is, thus far, a Single Purpose Account, he is also User:203.162.205.60 who wanted to move this page above.
For this reason, I reverted the move. T ( talk) 09:25, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi Travb,
I don't mind that you undid this move, but there were some content additions in the branched page which you lost. For example, I added an entry for Japan activity which was lost, and there were some other user edits to Nicaragua. Is there a way to recover these edits? I don't know how to find the content of a deleted page.
Also, I have been a big contributor to the by-country listing of covert ops activities. I do not consider this an act of "dissent" so much as an act of "consideration". I think it is helpful for us as citizens to be aware of the specific history of political interventions that we make in other countries. This is helpful so that we know what we as taxpayers are paying for. We can also see on a per-country basis where that leaves us in terms of our relations with that country, i.e. who as a nation have we supported, and does that leave us more or less insecure. Having the facts at hand does not constitute dissent! Once you have the facts in hand, you can assent or dissent according to your beliefs. You can do neither without having the facts available.
Thanks, Erxnmedia ( talk) 15:33, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Urban legend? This was added to wikipedia recently by a newbie:
Unfortunately Harpers requires a subscription
Sounds dubious at best, especially since the previous edits of this wikipedian on this page. T ( talk) 10:09- 12:15, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
I added it to the old separate "controversies" page, but then that disappeared when it merged back to this page . . . somehow. This page is now so huge no one can really read through it without planning on spending their entire evening, but a simple search of "tapes" on the page led only to a link, not even a text mention of this huge event in the history of the organization.
I find this interesting that this issue is literally number one on Google news for multiple days in a row, yet nonexistent (if not for myself posting it), on the primary worldwide 'neutral' reference to the CIA. Amazing how people are on top of my edits within 15 minutes whenever I add or remove anything from a 9/11 "conspiracy" page, yet the CIA page goes without even a mention of a massive PR disaster for the agency. bov ( talk) 00:28, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the many refernces to "milnet.com", an unsourced personal website. Ultramarine ( talk) 12:42, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
<ref name="milnet">{{cite web | title =CIA Covert Operations | work =Milnet.com | url =http://www.milnet.com/ciaops.htm | accessdate=2007-11-06 }}</ref>
To help alleviate some concerns about the size of this page, I moved the Detention, interrogation and rendition practices section to the Black sites page as discussed above. This was a huge, unpleasant task, which I quit half way and then reconsidered and finished.
I removed the really bad formating that made the table of contents look so huge. I suggest maybe making this section a table.
I put the Huge history section, the bulk of the article, under the shorter main history section.
I moved the organization section above the history section.
Nothing was deleted, except for maybe two to three sentences which were the same in the Black sites page as I merged them. Trav ( talk) 13:49, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree with ultramarine's addition of a tag to the long list of CIA operations. Unfortunately, verifying everyone of this events in CIA history to everyones satisfaction is going to be a herculean task. I think the list is a good start.
I think for now it is better now that this section is at the very bottom of the article, which I did yesterday.
I would like to eventually see no controversial authors such as William Blum listed as references in this section, replaced by government reports such as Congressional committees. That is why I added the Template:Refimprovesect
Trav ( talk) 20:43, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
The following was removed because it was not sourced:
Trav ( talk) 07:21, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
First, I applaude Travb's resent restructuring of the article. Surprisingly, I think this actually addresses most of the issues I brought up regarding the unwieldiness (is that a word?) of the article. I think this re-organization greatly improves the article's readability and credibility. Furthermore, I applaud the addition of the tags calling for more citations and admitting the controversiality of those particular sections (e.g., the operations by region list, etc.), I think these go a long way to addressing some the issues I raised on nuetrality of the article.
Having said this, I still think that the main page for the CIA is not the right place for a comprehensive listing of CIA operations. A similar comparision would be for the FBI page to have a comprehensive list of FBI investigations, which would be an interesting project to undertake, but should not be placed on the main page of the FBI. In fact, I think the FBI's main page is a good example of what I'm talking about when I say concise. The page has its introduction, description of the Bureau's organization, and a brief history that highlights some of the Bureau's more well-known (or notorious) investigations, as well as a section on controversies and criticisms.
I would submit that we could use this as a good reference for this article. I think there should be a section on this article that highlights some of the more well-known operations of the CIA, but it should not attempt to list ALL known operations of the CIA. The reason for this is that, while there is nothing wrong with an article simply being long, as previously discussed, an article should strive to be concise, and I think the operations by region section fails in this regard. Known and suspected operations of the CIA is such a broad and rich topic, it should have its own article.
To preempt some of the POV arguments I may get in response to this, I beg the wiki community to believe me when I say that I have no problem with the actual information provided herein, and I don't think that moving any of this information will sentence it to the obscurity of unseen articles (and that is certainly not my goal). I just think the current article attempts to be too comprehensive. Instead of packing everything about the CIA into one article, there should be a family of articles that explore everything we may or may not know about it, and the main page should referrence and briefly discuss all of this. ( Morethan3words ( talk) 07:35, 13 December 2007 (UTC))
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
CIA is now a GA, I passed it this morning, lets hope next I will be supporting it for FA status. Dep. Garcia ( Talk | Help Desk | Complaints ) 11:58, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
I just found some vandalism on the top of the page. It said "Salina's first period licks balls". I deleted it because I wasnt sure how to report vandalism. What should I do in a situation like this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lord Mandos ( talk • contribs) 15:43, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
The following was removed today:
68.92.157.24 05:57, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
The opening paragraph has huge criticism and bias. It is vandalism that needs to be removed. 69.255.52.186 14:01, 25 June 2007 (UTC) Nuclearmound
I have commented out the section on Indonesia until we can find sources that are more reliable than "workers.org" and "thirdworldtraveller.org" to support the material therein. I will try to find sources for this and would appreciate any help. Incidentally, is the Kadane piece (which the article does not cite in direct support of the CIA's involvement in Sukarno's overthrow) from Time? The footnote implies, but does not explicitly say that it is. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 23:43, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
IT takes over half the article. Since there are so many small bits here divided into separate events I suggest we move it into its own article to properly cover each one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.235.65.166 ( talk • contribs) 07:43, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Like all but a relative few CIA employees (I'm not including myself in that group by virtue of awkward sentence construction), I can't read Arabic. What did the poster who recently blanked this entire Talk page with the comment linked to in the footnote at the end of this sentence have to say to the rest of the world? [1] I presume it might have been critical of CIA, which is why I am posting in this section of the restored Talk page. Office of independent counsel 21:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
This page "about" the CIA tells me very little of the CIA. How about a separate page of CIA controversy, since that is what this one mostly is now? We could probably make a controversy page for the controversy page after that, too. That would be a great place for people to talk about how bad the CIA is, and the cameras that are placed in South American cereal boxes to enforce child labor for Starbucks in order to get oil from Iraq to compete with China and support Israel before they unfreeze Disney and use a hair from Hitlers mustache comb to obtain the DNA to replicate him so Bush can have an actual friend. 66.91.214.29 04:40, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Already mentioned here on Wikipedia: OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD. Why NOT here in THIS article ? 205.240.144.168 04:47, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I read the changes that Lars T. ( talk · contribs) made, including inserting this:
I don't see anything on the cited ref that would give the impression that the CIA's secondary function is what Lars T. says that it is. Additionally, I'd think that the use of the words "colossal" and "illegal" here would definitely NOT be NPOV, given that the issues referred to there are quite controversial. I'd suggest reverting back to a version of the article prior to the insertion of this paragraph. -- Folic Acid 18:41, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm very sorry for deleting the section without discussion before. However, I still have a problem with the second sentence. "Its secondary function is propaganda or public relations..." is presented as a fact, wheras the rest of the article speaks of the secondary function of propaganda as speculation. Also, it is not made clear if the propaganda is domestic or otherwise. Am I wrong? Either way, I thnk that sentence is very confusing. Phantombantam 07:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
A very simple look at the reference for the second sentence shows it is incorrect. Therefore, I think stating part of the CIA's mission is propaganda is misleading and should be removed. Consensus? Rcrossvs 07:10, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
The problem here is that the debate about whether or not the CIA maintains illegal prisons and tortures people is not a matter of point of view. It either happens or it doesn't happen. And it is not so difficult to determine whether or not it happens - just ask the people who have been tortured. It could be that they are lying - but again what is at stake is not their POV but the facts. One would have to check their story for internal constistency, for corroborating evidence etc... And obviously if the CIA were operating illegal jails and torturing people they would try to cover up these facts - so one would have to take into account the possibility of disinformation (lies). Recently in Canada we fired the head of CSIS (our counterpart to the CIA) because the CIA and CSIS had one of our citizens kidnapped and tortured by proxy. This is a matter of government record and is not POV. And the whole affair was rife with lying. This I will allow is not precisely the same as if the CIA tortured people themselves or maintaining jails themselves. But I am just beginning to read up on this situation - my suspicion however is that there will be plenty of evidence to back up the assertion that the CIA tortures and maintains or has maintained illegal jails. To reiterate: in cases like these we must determined to find out what the truth is, otherwise we will end up in the following absurd situation: A Reporter "It is Mr. Johnson's POV that he saw a dead body on the street - however this report is contradicted by Ms. Smith who's POV is that she did not see a dead body." We cannot let this situation stand we must determine to the best of our abilities which or whether both are lying. To leave this situation at the level of POV violates human dignity.Canuckistani 14:53, 20 August 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Canuckistani ( talk • contribs).
Many of the cia.gov links seem to be broken I replaced a couple, but coudn't find the updated URLs. There are a few more dead references. I'd replace them all with {{ Fact}}s, but can't find them since "Find" in most broswers will not search text fields. Phantombantam 07:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
http://www.foia.cia.gov/ and click "family jewels" in the second paragraph
This is a great source for a lot of fidel castro-type things. I'm not the best writer/editor so maybe somebody better then I can make use of this source. These are the recently declassifed documents. Very dirty stuff in there. Virek 11:57, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Leroy Fletcher Prouty is listed as a CIA whistle blower. Prouty worked for military intelligence and was never on the payroll of the CIA. John Geraghty —Preceding unsigned comment added by John geraghty ( talk • contribs) 19:35, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
The original text:
The order of the sentences gives the meaning that because restrictions were lifted, a violation of the Constitutional requirement may have occurred. In fact, the meaning should be that because the arrangements were made, a violation of the Constitutional requirement may have occurred. Also, the implication of the original text is that Congress and the President can overrule the Constitution. (The implication: SINCE Congress and President approved arrangements, then the critics' charge is invalid) Obviously, this is not correct.
The revised version then:
72.188.233.83 19:44, 11 August 2007 (UTC) KeepTheContext
I would like permission to add a section showing how the CIA contributes to the development of knowledge resulting in crucial Committee decisions. The example I would like to use is the The CIA input into the Committee on Foreign Relations resulting in the decision of Ranking Minority head Sen. Jesse Helms' letter to Boris Yeltsin which brought about the turnover by the Russian Federation of KAL 007's long hidden Black Box. Bert Schlossberg 89.138.147.180 10:30, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Is this really relevant? So the American and Iranian legislatures got in a name calling match; is this notable? I think it is neither; that it was stated by a notable entity (the Iranian parliament) does not by definition make it notable. Parsecboy 22:20, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Am I to take it that no one would object if I removed this section, on grounds of lack of notability or relevance? It's been over a week, and no one has replied here. I'll give it another day or two, and then remove the section in question. Parsecboy 19:19, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
A larger section was removed by the anon today: [2]
If it remains removed, maybe people can take sections from this and add it to the article later. Travb ( talk) 05:26, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
What do other editors think about the possiblity of eliminating all but a short one-paragraph mention of the current content of this section of the CIA article, and letting interested parties click on the Wikilink to the Robertson Panel main article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robertson_Panel
That is what is done with the ""Farewell Dossier" section directly below it, and it seems like a good solution from keeping the main article from becoming unwieldy. The Robertson Panel is pretty ancient history anyway, and fairly non-notable in terms of real historical importance, IMHO. Its lengthy inclusion in the main article also detracts from overall credibility, as prominent mention of UFOs brings in elements of fringe belief in all sorts of oddball conspiracy theories. Might as well include a section on Skull and Bones or " remote viewing" experiments if UFOs are given such lengthy treatment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by No barometer of intelligence ( talk • contribs) 19:30, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Since Operation Mockingbird is not the right context in which to talk about this, what would be a good article name for describing CIA and media/propaganda issues, without running into original research problems? Operation Mockingbird is simply not the place to do it, as that would be ahistorical (and I'm getting a lil bit tired dealing with the Operation Mockingbird conspiracy). CIA and the media might be a good name, but it is also the title of a Bernstein article dealing with this same issue [3], maybe not the way to go. Intangible2.0 02:19, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Since Operation Mockingbird is not the right context in which to talk about this, what would be a good article name for describing CIA and media/propaganda issues, without running into original research problems? Operation Mockingbird is simply not the place to do it, as that would be ahistorical (and I'm getting a lil bit tired dealing with the Operation Mockingbird conspiracy). CIA and the media might be a good name, but it is also the title of a Bernstein article dealing with this same issue [4], maybe not the way to go. CIA and propaganda is too strong a name; if it is propaganda, readers will find out by themselves reading the article. Intangible2.0 02:22, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
In the edit summary for this section renaming, I asked the question: "Should this section be summarized and broken out into a separate article?" and I repeat it here seeking input. I believe that all of the recent edits I have made to this section pass the WP:NOTE test, but I also acknowledge that Wikipedia is not Wikinews, and that this section is becoming long and is likely to grow with future news developments. Also, it falls entirely under the "Modern Controversies" main heading, so it might overly weight the main CIA article in that direction. What do other editors think? Something similar was done to break out the NSA warrantless surveillance controversy from the main National Security Agency article. I would be glad to write a summary of the current content of this section and then create a new Wiki-linked article including its entire contents if there is consensus for doing so. Alternately, if someone just wants to revert my renaming of the section heading and vote to leave things intact, that's fine with me, too. No barometer of intelligence 23:07, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I think Sdsds has pointed us in the direction of a solution with his/her addition of the Black site wikilink. This is a well-maintained, comprehensive article on this subject. It doesn't include some of the recent edits I've made here in this article, so if it's OK with other editors, I'll work at moving some of the non-duplicated newer content on this page into that article, write a summary for the main CIA article, and maybe change the:
to a
.... under the current section heading. Does that sound acceptable to others? No barometer of intelligence 23:34, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
There was no reaction to my suggestion above made 18 days ago, so I just kind of let it drop. I decided that I just wouldn't add anything more to this already lengthy section, but then General Hayden made some public comments about interrogation methods that only seemed fair to include a brief mention of. I am a little wary of trying to summarize this section and move some of its existing content to the Black Site article like I proposed. Someone went to all the trouble of adding nine citations to the statement, "Waterboarding is widely regarded as a form of torture," although footnotes 87 through 90 seem more like declarative statements rather than conventional citations of sources. I don't want to offend those editors by moving all of that work to another article, but this one is getting unwieldy, IMHO. Any ideas from anybody else? No barometer of intelligence 20:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
I raised this issue elsewhere on this page relative to the section of the article on detention, interrogation and rendition practices, but it seems to me that we should have a more global discussion of the article relative to the guidlines in WP:LENGTH. Does anybody else agree and want to take the lead on making specific suggestions on how to move some of the current content to other articles, either newly-created or of the previously-existing variety? No barometer of intelligence 18:06, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I got rid of GodspeedMach3's response in this thread because it was a copy of a remark he made in a seperate thread that had no bearing on the above conversation. I'm not really sure why it was copied into this section, but whatever, if Godspeed wants it put back, he's welcome to revert the edit.
Also, just to add me two cents in on this topic: I agree with Travb in that an article should not be shortened simply for the sake of keeping it from getting "too long." However, I don't think it's fair to compare this article to those of the wars above. Wars are, in a sense, a story in history, with a beggining, middle, and end. The CIA, however, is an organization, which has a definition. Definitions are inherently more concise than stories. I understand that a main page of the CIA has to have a history section (which will tell a story, in a sense), but even still, this history section is not meant to be a comprehensive history of every action taken by the CIA, that should be its own page, instead the history section should provide some main highlights to provide the reader with a general understanding of what the CIA is and does. For a good example of this, I would recommend anyone to look at the main page of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), which remains (relatively) clear, concise, and focused on providing the reader with a good understanding of what the FBI is and how it works.
In this light, I do believe that there is some information on this page that is not pertinent or appropriate for the organization's main page, and have proposed a fix. For more on this, please see below under Neutrality. ( 203.162.35.78 ( talk) 06:55, 27 November 2007 (UTC))
I would like to get the wikipedia communities opinion on this section:
Various media outlets have reported that people using CIA computers have edited Wikipedia. [1] Allegedly, employees of the intelligence agency altered biographical information contained in Wikipedia entries on former presidents including Ronald Reagan and Richard Nixon. When asked by the BBC whether it could confirm whether the changes had been made by a person using a CIA computer, an agency spokesperson responded, "I cannot confirm that the traffic you cite came from agency computers. I'd like in any case to underscore a far larger and more significant point that no one should doubt or forget: The CIA has a vital mission in protecting the United States, and the focus of this agency is there, on that decisive work." [2] Nevertheless, Wikipedia Scanner seem to show that workers on the agency's computers made edits to the page of Iran's president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. While other changes that have been made are more innocuous, and include tweaks to the profile of former CIA chief Porter Goss and celebrities such as Oprah Winfrey. The Iraq war article has also been edited by the CIA [3]. As is the case with all Wikipedia edits identifiable by WikiScanner to specific organization's computer networks (those in which a web anonymizer service has not been employed in the process), individuals can make such edits on their own initiative. Content appearing on Wikipedia has also been cited as a source and referenced in some U.S. intelligence agency products. [4] |
I have no problem moving the section, but removing several portions seems a little far. Travb ( talk) 00:02, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Has there ever been a case of anyone in the CIA ever being persecuted for any of these illegal crimes abroad? One thing that is missing in this article is the involvement of the CIA in Abu Grahib. Seems like the CIA has tacit immunity from any crime, is this correct or is there any case of a CIA officer being persecuted? Travb ( talk) 12:08, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Apart from some of the early sections of this article, I greatly question the neutrality of this article in its current state, particularly with regard to its sections on the CIA's clandestine actions. Given that this article is supposed to be encyclopedic (i.e., accurate) it seems rather odd to include a section on activities of an organization that are inherently unvarifiable. In particular, any perceived activity that comes as a result of the accusations of foreign government officials or journalists. Given that the CIA never addresses its media criticisms, and never provides evidence of its activities (whether damning or exonerating), the CIA is an easy target for random or even prepostrous accusations by just about anyone. Even foreign government officials can not be credible sources for these activities as it is often beneficial for them, from a domestic political perpsepctive, to convince their own people of the foreign enemy trying to destroy their government, whether based in fact or fiction, and the CIA is a perfect target for this given how well known it is around the world.
In addition, the wording of many sections needs some significant neutrality and varifiability cleaning. For example, "CIA guru" is not a position in any organization I've heard of; implying that the CIA ruined the culture of Guatemala is not a useful statement in an encyclopedia, and numerous uses of statements like "many authors have accused..." or other such poor citational practices greatly reduces the credibility of this article.
As such, I propose that all sections of this article referring to the actions or activities of the CIA be moved to a seperate article with "confirmed" CIA activities and "suspected" CIA activities. This main page should remain focused on that information which is more varifiable, such as the organizational structure and history. Any section in this article on "controversies" or "known activities" should focus on those activites that are declassified and/or publically investigated, such as the CIA's involvement in the Watergate Scandal, Iran/Contra, etc.
This type of article is very difficult for a piece of work like Wikipedia because it really tests the notion of a "credible source." Even respected journalists and academitions have been known to be quite wrong about the CIA and other secretive organizations. Another example of this, is the majority of academic works that have contemplated the CIA's actions have almost universally admitted the lack of hard evidence on almost anything that involves the CIA, and so there is really very little that can be said about the CIA with any kind of certainty. Unfortunately, the CIA's main page should, like other main pages, stick to that which is certain. ( 203.162.205.60 ( talk) 10:13, 26 November 2007 (UTC))
As some of you may have noticed, and as per the above discussion on Neutrality, I have moved a significant portion of the article to a new article, entitled Suspected and Confirmed CIA Operations. The reason for this is described in the discussion above, which I agree with, and no one has objected to.
As such, I have simply cut and pasted the old information into the new article. The new article, in my opinion, should be organized such that one section will list those operations, such as the Bay of Pigs, that have been openly admited to or confirmed by the CIA, and another section for those that have been reported on by various journalists, authors, etc. but not expressly admited to by the CIA. I would greatly appreciate help from the wiki community on this as I am by no means an expert on the CIA. ( Morethan3words ( talk) 13:39, 6 December 2007 (UTC))
I think moving Suspected and Confirmed CIA Operations is not a good idea. This is a predictable way of removing dissent, which I predicted would happen.
What concerns me is that CIA employees, probably screwing around at work, have edited Wikipedia ( See above).
Moving controversial information is a familiar tactic of apologists and wikiusers with Conflict of interests: Branch off the page, then bury it.
User:Morethan3words who moved this page is, thus far, a Single Purpose Account, he is also User:203.162.205.60 who wanted to move this page above.
For this reason, I reverted the move. T ( talk) 09:25, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi Travb,
I don't mind that you undid this move, but there were some content additions in the branched page which you lost. For example, I added an entry for Japan activity which was lost, and there were some other user edits to Nicaragua. Is there a way to recover these edits? I don't know how to find the content of a deleted page.
Also, I have been a big contributor to the by-country listing of covert ops activities. I do not consider this an act of "dissent" so much as an act of "consideration". I think it is helpful for us as citizens to be aware of the specific history of political interventions that we make in other countries. This is helpful so that we know what we as taxpayers are paying for. We can also see on a per-country basis where that leaves us in terms of our relations with that country, i.e. who as a nation have we supported, and does that leave us more or less insecure. Having the facts at hand does not constitute dissent! Once you have the facts in hand, you can assent or dissent according to your beliefs. You can do neither without having the facts available.
Thanks, Erxnmedia ( talk) 15:33, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Urban legend? This was added to wikipedia recently by a newbie:
Unfortunately Harpers requires a subscription
Sounds dubious at best, especially since the previous edits of this wikipedian on this page. T ( talk) 10:09- 12:15, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
I added it to the old separate "controversies" page, but then that disappeared when it merged back to this page . . . somehow. This page is now so huge no one can really read through it without planning on spending their entire evening, but a simple search of "tapes" on the page led only to a link, not even a text mention of this huge event in the history of the organization.
I find this interesting that this issue is literally number one on Google news for multiple days in a row, yet nonexistent (if not for myself posting it), on the primary worldwide 'neutral' reference to the CIA. Amazing how people are on top of my edits within 15 minutes whenever I add or remove anything from a 9/11 "conspiracy" page, yet the CIA page goes without even a mention of a massive PR disaster for the agency. bov ( talk) 00:28, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the many refernces to "milnet.com", an unsourced personal website. Ultramarine ( talk) 12:42, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
<ref name="milnet">{{cite web | title =CIA Covert Operations | work =Milnet.com | url =http://www.milnet.com/ciaops.htm | accessdate=2007-11-06 }}</ref>
To help alleviate some concerns about the size of this page, I moved the Detention, interrogation and rendition practices section to the Black sites page as discussed above. This was a huge, unpleasant task, which I quit half way and then reconsidered and finished.
I removed the really bad formating that made the table of contents look so huge. I suggest maybe making this section a table.
I put the Huge history section, the bulk of the article, under the shorter main history section.
I moved the organization section above the history section.
Nothing was deleted, except for maybe two to three sentences which were the same in the Black sites page as I merged them. Trav ( talk) 13:49, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree with ultramarine's addition of a tag to the long list of CIA operations. Unfortunately, verifying everyone of this events in CIA history to everyones satisfaction is going to be a herculean task. I think the list is a good start.
I think for now it is better now that this section is at the very bottom of the article, which I did yesterday.
I would like to eventually see no controversial authors such as William Blum listed as references in this section, replaced by government reports such as Congressional committees. That is why I added the Template:Refimprovesect
Trav ( talk) 20:43, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
The following was removed because it was not sourced:
Trav ( talk) 07:21, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
First, I applaude Travb's resent restructuring of the article. Surprisingly, I think this actually addresses most of the issues I brought up regarding the unwieldiness (is that a word?) of the article. I think this re-organization greatly improves the article's readability and credibility. Furthermore, I applaud the addition of the tags calling for more citations and admitting the controversiality of those particular sections (e.g., the operations by region list, etc.), I think these go a long way to addressing some the issues I raised on nuetrality of the article.
Having said this, I still think that the main page for the CIA is not the right place for a comprehensive listing of CIA operations. A similar comparision would be for the FBI page to have a comprehensive list of FBI investigations, which would be an interesting project to undertake, but should not be placed on the main page of the FBI. In fact, I think the FBI's main page is a good example of what I'm talking about when I say concise. The page has its introduction, description of the Bureau's organization, and a brief history that highlights some of the Bureau's more well-known (or notorious) investigations, as well as a section on controversies and criticisms.
I would submit that we could use this as a good reference for this article. I think there should be a section on this article that highlights some of the more well-known operations of the CIA, but it should not attempt to list ALL known operations of the CIA. The reason for this is that, while there is nothing wrong with an article simply being long, as previously discussed, an article should strive to be concise, and I think the operations by region section fails in this regard. Known and suspected operations of the CIA is such a broad and rich topic, it should have its own article.
To preempt some of the POV arguments I may get in response to this, I beg the wiki community to believe me when I say that I have no problem with the actual information provided herein, and I don't think that moving any of this information will sentence it to the obscurity of unseen articles (and that is certainly not my goal). I just think the current article attempts to be too comprehensive. Instead of packing everything about the CIA into one article, there should be a family of articles that explore everything we may or may not know about it, and the main page should referrence and briefly discuss all of this. ( Morethan3words ( talk) 07:35, 13 December 2007 (UTC))