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Can someone explain why the following belongs in the section "Claims that support that the flight was instigated by Arab leaders"? I don't see such an instigation claimed either in this passage or in the full article cited.
Zero talk 16:03, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
I'm removing it for now as it clearly doesn't belong where it is. Zero talk 10:57, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
Is there any reason this section should not be deleted? If not, shouldn't there be a "Claims by American sources that support that the flight was instigated by Arab leaders" or a "Claims by French sources that support that the flight was instigated by Arab leaders". Those section could then contain statements by various non-historians of varying credibility. -- Frederico1234 ( talk) 18:38, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
I merged the section with the section "Claims that support that the flight was instigated by Arab leaders". -- Frederico1234 ( talk) 06:49, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
Since most of this has been discussed ad nauseam on this page and others (search the archives), and many of the protagonists have since been banned, I didn't want to go over the same again. So brief summaries only:
Zero talk 02:25, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, but it ain't closed. NMMNG, your reply did not address the issue and I already cited Medoff as documenting that Schechtman was employed to do this work. It isn't about political affiliation at all, that is a straw man (otherwise I'd put in Schechtman's Revisionist credentials as a close associate of Jabotinsky, which I didn't, did I?). It isn't about treating one source differently either, that is another straw man. Medoff showed that Schechtman was employed to write on the subject and the result became official Israeli policy. Nothing similar is true of any other source on the page (feel free to add exceptions). It is obviously relevant and is perfectly well sourced. For your information, here is most of the relevant stuff from Medoff, minus his citations:
I'm inclined to put the whole lot in, it is clearly admissible and significant. Zero talk 02:18, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
Obviously the article was written prior to the release of the Israeli archives which led to a major revision in how the topic was viewed by zionist historians. There is no problem using the source - but it should be made clear that it is not commenting on the situation today, but only up to 1980, when it was written. Dlv999 ( talk) 07:07, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
Removed: Furthermore, Palestinian Arab protesters in the West Bank took to the streets on the occasion of "the first anniversary of Israel's establishment" to place blame on "the Arab states for the creation of the refugee problem."[ref] Karsh, Efraim. Arafat's War: The Man and His Battle for Israeli Conquest. New York: Grove Press, 2003. pp. 33–34.[/ref]
Reason: Apart from the misuse of quotation marks (the quoted words are from Karsh and not from any original source), this sentence is misleading even according to Karsh's biased description. Just above this passage he states why the Palestinians blamed the Arab States: "The Palestinians considered the Arab world derelict for having issued wild promises of military support which they never made good". Without this part of it, the insertion cannot be understood. Zero talk 10:28, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
The sources for this are:
Can somebody explain to me which of these is an acceptable source to say that a living person said something? nableezy - 18:51, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Can somebody explain to me how Yitschak Ben Gad is a reliable source, or if SPI Books is a reputable academic publisher? nableezy - 20:01, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
So now we have it cited to a historian of African-Americans (Sundquist) who cites it in passing to Myths and Facts! It's about time these games stopped. The fact that Sunquist would consider M&F reliable for anything at all just underscores that he is not a reliable source for the Middle East. No reliable source for this claim has been brought; ergo, we can't have it. That's the clear reading of policy. Zero talk 13:34, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
The idea that people can demand that sources that they added days ago remain is not founded in any policy. In fact it is against WP policy. If what you added is challenged it stays out until there is a consensus to restore it. The change is what requires consensus, not the reversal of it. Sundquist, by virtue of who published the work, is prima facie reliable, but if AU wanted to keep reading Judith's comment instead of stopping where it suited his argument he would see that there is still room for argument for a given source. If you want to restore it, get consensus at RS/N that it is reliable. nableezy - 19:02, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Things are rather sad if the reliability of Myths&Facts needs serious discussion. As (Zionist historian) Rafael Medoff wrote in "A to Z of Zionism", "AIPAC’s annual guidebook, Myths & Facts, was long considered the bible of pro-Israel activists" and yes indeed that is its nature and purpose. It was conceived as a manual for activists and is neither third-party nor reliable. It is hard to find comments on it by serious academics because they tend to ignore dross like this altogether, but the three reviews I managed to find are consistent: Wright (about 1984 edition) "Davis' work is that of a compiler who has gathered virtually every piece of Zionist propaganda produced since the mid-1940s. The reason this book is undocumented is because one cannot document lies." (JPS 16 p.165); Neff (about 1992 edition): "Bard and Himelfarb utterly fail to lay out anything approaching the truth" (JPS 22, p125); Neff (about 2001 edition): "The latest edition of Myths and Facts, however, is not one of the better efforts by the pro-Israel side, mainly because it is less adroit than usual at twisting the facts to the benefit of Israel." (JPS 31, p131). All three of these reviews give examples to justify their claims. I'm sure Daniel Pipes has written a glowingly positive review of it somewhere... Regarding Bard, of course this is part of his official work for the pro-Israeli lobby groups he has worked for. He has almost no personal presence in the academic literature on the Middle East. Zero talk 02:38, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
The Dore Gold source has been in use here for months. I intend to restore that source as soon as enough time has gone by for Nableezy to take a chill pill. -- GHcool ( talk) 00:58, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
It should be perfectly obvious that a polemic tract by "former Israeli Consul General to the U.S" Ben Gad is not a reliable source. Doesn't even come close. Zero talk 22:35, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Anybody got a subscription or a better source on the coverup? Hcobb ( talk) 18:49, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
So badly debunked in fact, his conclusion has changed. Should one be using this early discredited (by Karsh) 'stuff' such as inverted and partial quotes? No. ergo: The latest Morris declaration on the issue.
http://www.zionism-israel.com/israel_news/2008/02/israel-and-palestinians-according-to.html
Irish Times lettersed@irish-times.ie February 21, 2008
Israel and the Palestinians
Benny Morris
Madam, - Israel-Haters are fond of citing - and more often, Mis-citing - my work in support of their arguments. Let me offer some corrections.
The Palestinian Arabs were not responsible "in some bizarre way" (David Norris, January 31st) for what befell them in 1948. Their responsibility was very direct and simple.
In Defiance of the will of the International community, as embodied in the UN General Assembly Resolution of November 29th, 1947 (No. 181), They launched Hostilities against the Jewish community in Palestine in the hope of aborting the emergence of the Jewish state and perhaps Destroying that community. But they Lost; and one of the RESULTS was the displacement of 700,000 of them from their homes. [......] -
MOST of Palestine's 700,000 "refugees" fled their homes because of the flail of War (and in the expectation that they would shortly return to their homes on the backs of Victorious Arab invaders). But it is also true that there were several dozen sites, including Lydda and Ramla, from which Arab communities were expelled by Jewish troops.
The displacement of the 700,000 Arabs who became "refugees" - and I put the term in inverted commas, as 2/3's of them were displaced from one part of Palestine to another and not from their country (which is the usual definition of a refugee) - was not a "racist crime" (David Landy, January 24th) but the RESULT of a national conflict and a WAR, with religious overtones, from the Muslim perspective, launched by the Arabs themselves.
There was NO Zionist "plan" or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of "ethnic cleansing". Plan Dalet ('Plan D'), of March 10th, 1948 (it is open and available for all to read in the IDF Archive and in various publications), was the master plan of the Haganah - the Jewish military force that became the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) - to counter the expected pan-Arab assault on the emergent Jewish state. That's what it explicitly states and that's what it was. And the invasion of the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq duly occurred, on May 15th. It is true that Plan D gave the regional commanders carte blanche to occupy and garrison or expel and destroy the Arab villages along and behind the front lines and the anticipated Arab armies' invasion routes. And it is also true that mid-way in the 1948 war the Israeli leaders decided to bar the return of the "refugees" (those "refugees" who had just assaulted the Jewish community), viewing them as a potential fifth column and threat to the Jewish state's existence. I for one cannot fault their fears or logic.
The Demonisation of Israel is largely based on Lies - much as the Demonisation of the Jews during the past 2,000 years has been based on Lies. And there is a Connection between the two.
I would recommend that the likes of Norris and Landy read some history books and become acquainted with the facts, not recycle shopworn Arab propaganda. They might then learn, for example, that the "Palestine War" of 1948 (the "War of Independence," as Israelis call it) began in November 1947, not in May 1948. By May 14th close to 2,000 Israelis had died - of the 5,800 dead suffered by Israel in the whole war (ie almost 1% of the Jewish population of Palestine/Israel, which was about 650,000).
Prof Benny Morris, Li-On, Israel. Feb 21, 2008
- - - - -
'The Death' of 'The Birth', the New Historian Bible shattered by it's own author. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.201.149.66 ( talk) 23:53, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
They perpetrated ethnic cleansing.
"There are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide - the annihilation of your people - I prefer ethnic cleansing."
And that was the situation in 1948?
"That was the situation. That is what Zionism faced. A Jewish state would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians. Therefore it was necessary to uproot them.
Supposedly there are paid lobbies that are going to be editing Wikipedia to have a pro-israeli bias, or at least that is what this special report from RT claims:
(Relevant info is at 9:50 in the video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GwApvroWkE
This is very troubling and should be taken seriously. Wikipedia is not a platform for propaganda. It is a neutral source of information that should look at all the evidence that is presented from unbiased, credible sources. If your sources are biased or unreliable, they will be removed. I don't care how much you're being paid, or what country you're from, this is a place of knowledge, not national interests. Spirit469 ( talk) 21:26, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
user:Zero0000 has undone my edit. I do not understand his reason. I asked him for his objeactions in my talkpage.
It is a pity that Zero removed the tag of "citation needed" too. Hence the article stay with the mistake. Ykantor ( talk) 11:30, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
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Alright. I'm awful at wikipedia so someone will have to fix this for me, obviously... but why is citation 9 acceptable? It claims to be from a newspaper, but that newspaper itself doesn't cite any first hand sources. All it does is claim that no one else cites first hand sources. And it's not actually a newspaper citation, it's a free website citation that claims to be from a newspaper's editorial column. It contains obvious factual errors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.201.151.68 ( talk) 03:17, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
One may think that this article should by now be rock solid. I have decided to review it for the first time and to my surprise encountered irregularities unacceptable in Wiki. For instance, after having fixed a 'dead link' to the Philip Mendes article - 2000 (as uploaded by the author), I actually read his work. Nowhere does it even mention Peretz or Gabbay. I have placed a 'verification failed' tag. Erictheenquirer ( talk) 09:40, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
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the paragraph "Rabbi Chaim Simons demonstrated in 1988 that Zionist leaders..." supports the arab side and obviously should go under their heading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cutoffyourjib ( talk • contribs) 03:24, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
Has that article been erased? It's not available anymore. Please rectify. Thanks. Arminden ( talk) 11:04, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
Redirecting "Zionist Action Committee" to "Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus" is at least a little bit... funny. Or rather, the very definition of sarcastic partiality. I suggest to remove it. The Zionist Action Committee seems to have been some department of the Zionist Executive; even if there's no article about it (yet), there is no reason to leave things as they are now = a bad joke. Arminden ( talk) 18:12, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
Encyclopedia Judaica says "Actions Committee, early name of the Zionist General Council, the supreme institution of the World Zionist Organization in the interim between Congresses. The Zionist Executive’s name was then the 'Small Actions Committee.'" In the Protocols of the Zionist Congresses (the last I have is 1937), it is always called "Aktionskomitee". That can be translated either as Action or Actions, but the majority of good English sources I have use "Actions". Zero talk 00:39, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
See also Addresses; Debates, Resolutions of the January 1976 Session of the Zionist General Council https://www.bjpa.org/content/upload/bjpa/sess/SESSION%20OF%20THE%20ZIONIST%20GENERAL%20COUNCIL_ADDRESSES-DEBATES-RESOLUTIONS%204-8%20JANUARY,%201976.pdf. Mcljlm ( talk) 09:30, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
In keeping with the consensus here, I moved this article to a similar title. Any objections I'll revert and open a move request. nableezy - 23:01, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
Causes of the 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flightlike the original article? :3 F4U ( they /it) 20:44, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
" "I gathered the Jewish mukhtars, who had ties with the different Arab villages, and I asked them to whisper in the ears of several Arabs that giant Jewish reinforcements had reached the Galilee and were about to clean out the villages of the Hula, [and] to advise them, as friends, to flee while they could. And the rumour spread throughout the Hula that the time had come to flee. The flight encompassed tens of thousands. The stratagem fully achieved its objective." is not within pages 252–258 of Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist–Arab conflict, 1881–2001 but I can find it on page 251 of The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited [2nd Edition]. Sam(A Horrible Person) ( talk) 02:00, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
Even under "Israeli view," there is only criticism of it, the actually view buried in an indented quotation in its 3rd paragraph. The criticism of the Israeli view is equally critical of the Arab view in that support for multicausality refutes both views. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lamoatlarge ( talk • contribs) 18:49, 27 May 2022 (UTC) From the Jewish Virtual Library: Toward the end of the British Mandate, both the Jews and the Arabs attempted to gain control over the city. The hostilities which broke out at the end of 1947 reached a peak on April 21–22, 1948, when the British suddenly decided to evacuate the city. In a lightning military action, the Haganah captured the Arab quarters and took over the city. Only about 3,000 of Haifa’s 50,000 Arab residents chose to remain in the city; the rest, in response to the Arab High Command’s orders, refused to accept Jewish rule and abandoned their homes. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/history-and-overview-of-haifa All of this type of information needs to be presented without refutation in the first instance. The refutation needs to be reserved for the debate sections. Something I know to be the lore of Haifa: The 3,000 Muslim and Christian Palestinians who remained only stayed because the Jews of Haifa insisted they do so and prevented them from leaving. That remnant that stayed behind and that attitude of Haifa in the early days of Israel did allow a number of Christian and Muslim (Palestinian) Arabs to settle/resettle in the city in the 50s and 60s. By the late 1970s, the story of the blockade to stop the remnant from fleeing and the pluralism that ensued was told by Jews of Haifa with regret as much as with pride. Lamoatlarge ( talk) 19:14, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
Most notably in the first phrase: "Rabbi Chaim Simons demonstrated in 1988 that Zionist leaders in Mandatory Palestine viewed "transfer" (a euphemism for ethnic cleansing) of Arabs from the land as being crucial."
There is no indication that the Israelis would describe the process as "ethnic cleansing" and the citation noted at the end of the phrase doesn't make that claim. At the very least, this characterization really demands a citation, if not removal altogether. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheariner ( talk • contribs) 20:05, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
Can someone explain why the following belongs in the section "Claims that support that the flight was instigated by Arab leaders"? I don't see such an instigation claimed either in this passage or in the full article cited.
Zero talk 16:03, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
I'm removing it for now as it clearly doesn't belong where it is. Zero talk 10:57, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
Is there any reason this section should not be deleted? If not, shouldn't there be a "Claims by American sources that support that the flight was instigated by Arab leaders" or a "Claims by French sources that support that the flight was instigated by Arab leaders". Those section could then contain statements by various non-historians of varying credibility. -- Frederico1234 ( talk) 18:38, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
I merged the section with the section "Claims that support that the flight was instigated by Arab leaders". -- Frederico1234 ( talk) 06:49, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
Since most of this has been discussed ad nauseam on this page and others (search the archives), and many of the protagonists have since been banned, I didn't want to go over the same again. So brief summaries only:
Zero talk 02:25, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, but it ain't closed. NMMNG, your reply did not address the issue and I already cited Medoff as documenting that Schechtman was employed to do this work. It isn't about political affiliation at all, that is a straw man (otherwise I'd put in Schechtman's Revisionist credentials as a close associate of Jabotinsky, which I didn't, did I?). It isn't about treating one source differently either, that is another straw man. Medoff showed that Schechtman was employed to write on the subject and the result became official Israeli policy. Nothing similar is true of any other source on the page (feel free to add exceptions). It is obviously relevant and is perfectly well sourced. For your information, here is most of the relevant stuff from Medoff, minus his citations:
I'm inclined to put the whole lot in, it is clearly admissible and significant. Zero talk 02:18, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
Obviously the article was written prior to the release of the Israeli archives which led to a major revision in how the topic was viewed by zionist historians. There is no problem using the source - but it should be made clear that it is not commenting on the situation today, but only up to 1980, when it was written. Dlv999 ( talk) 07:07, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
Removed: Furthermore, Palestinian Arab protesters in the West Bank took to the streets on the occasion of "the first anniversary of Israel's establishment" to place blame on "the Arab states for the creation of the refugee problem."[ref] Karsh, Efraim. Arafat's War: The Man and His Battle for Israeli Conquest. New York: Grove Press, 2003. pp. 33–34.[/ref]
Reason: Apart from the misuse of quotation marks (the quoted words are from Karsh and not from any original source), this sentence is misleading even according to Karsh's biased description. Just above this passage he states why the Palestinians blamed the Arab States: "The Palestinians considered the Arab world derelict for having issued wild promises of military support which they never made good". Without this part of it, the insertion cannot be understood. Zero talk 10:28, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
The sources for this are:
Can somebody explain to me which of these is an acceptable source to say that a living person said something? nableezy - 18:51, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Can somebody explain to me how Yitschak Ben Gad is a reliable source, or if SPI Books is a reputable academic publisher? nableezy - 20:01, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
So now we have it cited to a historian of African-Americans (Sundquist) who cites it in passing to Myths and Facts! It's about time these games stopped. The fact that Sunquist would consider M&F reliable for anything at all just underscores that he is not a reliable source for the Middle East. No reliable source for this claim has been brought; ergo, we can't have it. That's the clear reading of policy. Zero talk 13:34, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
The idea that people can demand that sources that they added days ago remain is not founded in any policy. In fact it is against WP policy. If what you added is challenged it stays out until there is a consensus to restore it. The change is what requires consensus, not the reversal of it. Sundquist, by virtue of who published the work, is prima facie reliable, but if AU wanted to keep reading Judith's comment instead of stopping where it suited his argument he would see that there is still room for argument for a given source. If you want to restore it, get consensus at RS/N that it is reliable. nableezy - 19:02, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Things are rather sad if the reliability of Myths&Facts needs serious discussion. As (Zionist historian) Rafael Medoff wrote in "A to Z of Zionism", "AIPAC’s annual guidebook, Myths & Facts, was long considered the bible of pro-Israel activists" and yes indeed that is its nature and purpose. It was conceived as a manual for activists and is neither third-party nor reliable. It is hard to find comments on it by serious academics because they tend to ignore dross like this altogether, but the three reviews I managed to find are consistent: Wright (about 1984 edition) "Davis' work is that of a compiler who has gathered virtually every piece of Zionist propaganda produced since the mid-1940s. The reason this book is undocumented is because one cannot document lies." (JPS 16 p.165); Neff (about 1992 edition): "Bard and Himelfarb utterly fail to lay out anything approaching the truth" (JPS 22, p125); Neff (about 2001 edition): "The latest edition of Myths and Facts, however, is not one of the better efforts by the pro-Israel side, mainly because it is less adroit than usual at twisting the facts to the benefit of Israel." (JPS 31, p131). All three of these reviews give examples to justify their claims. I'm sure Daniel Pipes has written a glowingly positive review of it somewhere... Regarding Bard, of course this is part of his official work for the pro-Israeli lobby groups he has worked for. He has almost no personal presence in the academic literature on the Middle East. Zero talk 02:38, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
The Dore Gold source has been in use here for months. I intend to restore that source as soon as enough time has gone by for Nableezy to take a chill pill. -- GHcool ( talk) 00:58, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
It should be perfectly obvious that a polemic tract by "former Israeli Consul General to the U.S" Ben Gad is not a reliable source. Doesn't even come close. Zero talk 22:35, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Anybody got a subscription or a better source on the coverup? Hcobb ( talk) 18:49, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
So badly debunked in fact, his conclusion has changed. Should one be using this early discredited (by Karsh) 'stuff' such as inverted and partial quotes? No. ergo: The latest Morris declaration on the issue.
http://www.zionism-israel.com/israel_news/2008/02/israel-and-palestinians-according-to.html
Irish Times lettersed@irish-times.ie February 21, 2008
Israel and the Palestinians
Benny Morris
Madam, - Israel-Haters are fond of citing - and more often, Mis-citing - my work in support of their arguments. Let me offer some corrections.
The Palestinian Arabs were not responsible "in some bizarre way" (David Norris, January 31st) for what befell them in 1948. Their responsibility was very direct and simple.
In Defiance of the will of the International community, as embodied in the UN General Assembly Resolution of November 29th, 1947 (No. 181), They launched Hostilities against the Jewish community in Palestine in the hope of aborting the emergence of the Jewish state and perhaps Destroying that community. But they Lost; and one of the RESULTS was the displacement of 700,000 of them from their homes. [......] -
MOST of Palestine's 700,000 "refugees" fled their homes because of the flail of War (and in the expectation that they would shortly return to their homes on the backs of Victorious Arab invaders). But it is also true that there were several dozen sites, including Lydda and Ramla, from which Arab communities were expelled by Jewish troops.
The displacement of the 700,000 Arabs who became "refugees" - and I put the term in inverted commas, as 2/3's of them were displaced from one part of Palestine to another and not from their country (which is the usual definition of a refugee) - was not a "racist crime" (David Landy, January 24th) but the RESULT of a national conflict and a WAR, with religious overtones, from the Muslim perspective, launched by the Arabs themselves.
There was NO Zionist "plan" or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of "ethnic cleansing". Plan Dalet ('Plan D'), of March 10th, 1948 (it is open and available for all to read in the IDF Archive and in various publications), was the master plan of the Haganah - the Jewish military force that became the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) - to counter the expected pan-Arab assault on the emergent Jewish state. That's what it explicitly states and that's what it was. And the invasion of the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq duly occurred, on May 15th. It is true that Plan D gave the regional commanders carte blanche to occupy and garrison or expel and destroy the Arab villages along and behind the front lines and the anticipated Arab armies' invasion routes. And it is also true that mid-way in the 1948 war the Israeli leaders decided to bar the return of the "refugees" (those "refugees" who had just assaulted the Jewish community), viewing them as a potential fifth column and threat to the Jewish state's existence. I for one cannot fault their fears or logic.
The Demonisation of Israel is largely based on Lies - much as the Demonisation of the Jews during the past 2,000 years has been based on Lies. And there is a Connection between the two.
I would recommend that the likes of Norris and Landy read some history books and become acquainted with the facts, not recycle shopworn Arab propaganda. They might then learn, for example, that the "Palestine War" of 1948 (the "War of Independence," as Israelis call it) began in November 1947, not in May 1948. By May 14th close to 2,000 Israelis had died - of the 5,800 dead suffered by Israel in the whole war (ie almost 1% of the Jewish population of Palestine/Israel, which was about 650,000).
Prof Benny Morris, Li-On, Israel. Feb 21, 2008
- - - - -
'The Death' of 'The Birth', the New Historian Bible shattered by it's own author. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.201.149.66 ( talk) 23:53, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
They perpetrated ethnic cleansing.
"There are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide - the annihilation of your people - I prefer ethnic cleansing."
And that was the situation in 1948?
"That was the situation. That is what Zionism faced. A Jewish state would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians. Therefore it was necessary to uproot them.
Supposedly there are paid lobbies that are going to be editing Wikipedia to have a pro-israeli bias, or at least that is what this special report from RT claims:
(Relevant info is at 9:50 in the video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GwApvroWkE
This is very troubling and should be taken seriously. Wikipedia is not a platform for propaganda. It is a neutral source of information that should look at all the evidence that is presented from unbiased, credible sources. If your sources are biased or unreliable, they will be removed. I don't care how much you're being paid, or what country you're from, this is a place of knowledge, not national interests. Spirit469 ( talk) 21:26, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
user:Zero0000 has undone my edit. I do not understand his reason. I asked him for his objeactions in my talkpage.
It is a pity that Zero removed the tag of "citation needed" too. Hence the article stay with the mistake. Ykantor ( talk) 11:30, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
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Alright. I'm awful at wikipedia so someone will have to fix this for me, obviously... but why is citation 9 acceptable? It claims to be from a newspaper, but that newspaper itself doesn't cite any first hand sources. All it does is claim that no one else cites first hand sources. And it's not actually a newspaper citation, it's a free website citation that claims to be from a newspaper's editorial column. It contains obvious factual errors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.201.151.68 ( talk) 03:17, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
One may think that this article should by now be rock solid. I have decided to review it for the first time and to my surprise encountered irregularities unacceptable in Wiki. For instance, after having fixed a 'dead link' to the Philip Mendes article - 2000 (as uploaded by the author), I actually read his work. Nowhere does it even mention Peretz or Gabbay. I have placed a 'verification failed' tag. Erictheenquirer ( talk) 09:40, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
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the paragraph "Rabbi Chaim Simons demonstrated in 1988 that Zionist leaders..." supports the arab side and obviously should go under their heading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cutoffyourjib ( talk • contribs) 03:24, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
Has that article been erased? It's not available anymore. Please rectify. Thanks. Arminden ( talk) 11:04, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
Redirecting "Zionist Action Committee" to "Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus" is at least a little bit... funny. Or rather, the very definition of sarcastic partiality. I suggest to remove it. The Zionist Action Committee seems to have been some department of the Zionist Executive; even if there's no article about it (yet), there is no reason to leave things as they are now = a bad joke. Arminden ( talk) 18:12, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
Encyclopedia Judaica says "Actions Committee, early name of the Zionist General Council, the supreme institution of the World Zionist Organization in the interim between Congresses. The Zionist Executive’s name was then the 'Small Actions Committee.'" In the Protocols of the Zionist Congresses (the last I have is 1937), it is always called "Aktionskomitee". That can be translated either as Action or Actions, but the majority of good English sources I have use "Actions". Zero talk 00:39, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
See also Addresses; Debates, Resolutions of the January 1976 Session of the Zionist General Council https://www.bjpa.org/content/upload/bjpa/sess/SESSION%20OF%20THE%20ZIONIST%20GENERAL%20COUNCIL_ADDRESSES-DEBATES-RESOLUTIONS%204-8%20JANUARY,%201976.pdf. Mcljlm ( talk) 09:30, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
In keeping with the consensus here, I moved this article to a similar title. Any objections I'll revert and open a move request. nableezy - 23:01, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
Causes of the 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flightlike the original article? :3 F4U ( they /it) 20:44, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
" "I gathered the Jewish mukhtars, who had ties with the different Arab villages, and I asked them to whisper in the ears of several Arabs that giant Jewish reinforcements had reached the Galilee and were about to clean out the villages of the Hula, [and] to advise them, as friends, to flee while they could. And the rumour spread throughout the Hula that the time had come to flee. The flight encompassed tens of thousands. The stratagem fully achieved its objective." is not within pages 252–258 of Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist–Arab conflict, 1881–2001 but I can find it on page 251 of The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited [2nd Edition]. Sam(A Horrible Person) ( talk) 02:00, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
Even under "Israeli view," there is only criticism of it, the actually view buried in an indented quotation in its 3rd paragraph. The criticism of the Israeli view is equally critical of the Arab view in that support for multicausality refutes both views. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lamoatlarge ( talk • contribs) 18:49, 27 May 2022 (UTC) From the Jewish Virtual Library: Toward the end of the British Mandate, both the Jews and the Arabs attempted to gain control over the city. The hostilities which broke out at the end of 1947 reached a peak on April 21–22, 1948, when the British suddenly decided to evacuate the city. In a lightning military action, the Haganah captured the Arab quarters and took over the city. Only about 3,000 of Haifa’s 50,000 Arab residents chose to remain in the city; the rest, in response to the Arab High Command’s orders, refused to accept Jewish rule and abandoned their homes. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/history-and-overview-of-haifa All of this type of information needs to be presented without refutation in the first instance. The refutation needs to be reserved for the debate sections. Something I know to be the lore of Haifa: The 3,000 Muslim and Christian Palestinians who remained only stayed because the Jews of Haifa insisted they do so and prevented them from leaving. That remnant that stayed behind and that attitude of Haifa in the early days of Israel did allow a number of Christian and Muslim (Palestinian) Arabs to settle/resettle in the city in the 50s and 60s. By the late 1970s, the story of the blockade to stop the remnant from fleeing and the pluralism that ensued was told by Jews of Haifa with regret as much as with pride. Lamoatlarge ( talk) 19:14, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
Most notably in the first phrase: "Rabbi Chaim Simons demonstrated in 1988 that Zionist leaders in Mandatory Palestine viewed "transfer" (a euphemism for ethnic cleansing) of Arabs from the land as being crucial."
There is no indication that the Israelis would describe the process as "ethnic cleansing" and the citation noted at the end of the phrase doesn't make that claim. At the very least, this characterization really demands a citation, if not removal altogether. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheariner ( talk • contribs) 20:05, 12 October 2023 (UTC)