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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Because of the continued nationalistic edit-warring about this article and associated disruption, I am imposing the following sanctions:
Under the Arbitration Committee's decision at
WP:ARBAA2#Amended Remedies and Enforcement, the following discretionary sanctions apply to this article:
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These sanctions are also logged on the case page and displayed to editors in the article and talk page's edit notice. Sandstein 21:33, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
Any input regarding this split? I found this on an old backlog.... Or can this simply be removed Tiggerjay ( talk) 06:47, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
Strabo was talk about 26 Alban tribes. Can anyone write their names here ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.106.135.192 ( talk) 17:10, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
Just as a reminder, Ancient Greek -β- is transliterated /b/, not /v/ as it often is in Modern Greek. See: Romanization of Greek. — LlywelynII 22:05, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
Seeing the above, not sure if the guy is coming with too much baggage, but
seems to be pretty knowledgeable about the subject. Even if his findings (e.g. on etymology) are questionable, I would think his research and theories could be incorporated, given the appropriate NPOV tone. — LlywelynII 03:37, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
During the construction of Mingechaur reservoir in western Azerbaijan, have been found skeletons of ancient burial certificate of the fact that the physical type of the ancient population of Caucasian Albania was the same how modern. It was a thin-faced miniature Caspians. Direct descendants of which are Azerbaijanis. Historically, it looked like this: some ancient people with the characteristics of Indo-Afghan race moved from their original habitat - from Afghanistan or a North India - to the north: in the desert oases of Central Asia and Eastern Transcaucasia. Thus, the origins of physical characteristics of the modern population of Azerbaijan go back to the early Iron Age. [1] [2] [3] -- Elgun.babayev ( talk) 10:13, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
You need to find a good source to add a claim like that. Just adding a sentence like that is a big dispute to scholars all around, find legitimate sources that state something like as you wrote than maybe we can discuss further. To what my knowledge only Azerbaijan sources usually claim that Azeri people are descendants of Albanians. A source that is neutral and with reliable author is what we need to go with that claim. -- Nocturnal781 ( talk) 11:55, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
The sentence was almost entirely taken from the "Origins" section at the page Azerbaijani people and it seemed to me that certain page have went through enough of discussions. That's why I thought those sources I gave are reliable enough. Azerbek ( talk) 23:25, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Everybody interested in this article, please be aware of this WP:AE appeal: [2] I requested a partial amendment of the sanctions, further info is available in my appeal. Regards, Grand master 10:07, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
TwilightChill has been disruptive deleting parts of the article appealing to WP:CHERRY and NPOV policies. concerns do not apply. The chapter on Caucasian Albania and Azerbaijani revisionism are about a well known academic subject that is reported in works of a number of unrelated, unbiased Western and Russian scholars from reputable academic institutions. These are: Robert Hewsen, Thomas de Waal, Victor Schnirelmann, George Bournoutian and Yoav Karny. All of them have the same opinion that Azeri revisionism is a nationalist doctrine that misuses the history of Caucasian Albania. So, NPOV is covered. In fact, I omitted their more expressive language to keep the chapter on the neutral side. WP:CHERRY does not apply because there are no NPOV sources which would refute or question the assessment of the above mentioned academics. TwilightChill shall collaborate with other editors and refrain from disruptive tactics. Gorzaim ( talk) 19:31, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
Please do not add POV claims, the wiki articles are not a place for propaganda. Also, there's a lot of Armenian revisionism described by the same Shnirelman and de Waal, why the section should be only about Azerbaijani and not Armenian revisionism? How about describing revisionist claims by the likes of Mnatsakanyan and Ulubabyan, etc, I can write a large section about Armenian revisionism. I just see no point in adding to the article info that has no direct relation to this ancient state. Grand master 08:53, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
First of all concerning comments about Armenian reviosionism - all those authors are speaking about certain Armenian historians. Well, there are always historians with controversial points of view. On the other hand, they speak about state-sponsored Azerbaijani revisionism and falsification. So comparing Armenian and Azerbaijani historiography is not actually fair. After all, Armenian historians did not falsify the sources as they wanted or needed, whereas the moder Azerbaijani historiography (concerning CA) is basically based on translations of historical sources, where the word 'Armenian' was ommited or changed to 'Albanian'. And second - Armenians never claimed rights on any Albanian cultural or historical value, whereas Azerbaijanis, based on their biased theories, claim some rights on Armenian churches and literature of the region. One should like to have this information on wiki. This is highly important, in my opinion, since one can hardly find any other nation in modern world, with similar claims (I will be thankful, if one contradicts me giving a certain example). So I don't understand what's the problem with Azerbaijani reviosionism section? Is it too long? Well, I do agree, one could write it shorter. But this is not a reason for CHERRY or NPOV tag. Please, explain your views, because the discussion above is quiet strange and difficult to follow. Thanks.
Хаченци (
talk)
04:13, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
The section on revisionism is quite controversial to be added by sockpuppet accounts without a proper discussion here. And in all honesty, I do not believe that it really belongs in this article. This article is about history, whereas adding this information unnecessarily politicises the subject. Readers access this article to find out about an ancient country, not how its history is regarded by a bunch of researchers. If the so-called revisionism is so important, it may be mentioned in a separate article, and only on the condition that revisionism trends in both Azerbaijan and Armenia are addressed, which they certainly do according to the sources provided here. Parishan ( talk) 22:36, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Arran is the Persian name for the geographical area in Caucasus, but also a toponym for the Caucasian Albania during it's exsistence (4th c. BC - 5th (8th) c. AD). A lot of content incorrectly relates the geographical area to the pre-exsisting state, through misuse of sources. Here is an example from the article:
Albania or Arran in Islamic times was a triangle of land, lowland in the east and mountainous in the west, formed by the junction of the Kura and Aras rivers, Mil plain and parts of the Mughan plain.
While the source this content refers to (
Arran) states:
ARRĀN, a region of eastern Transcaucasia. It lay essentially within the great triangle of land, lowland in the east but rising to mountains in the west, formed by the junction of the Rivers Kur or Kura and Araxes or Aras.
The title of the reference source itself is ARRĀN a region of eastern Transcaucasia. So we see clear missinterpretation of source. I propose to remove any such incorrect, misleading content, and in future disambiguate Arran toponym from Caucasian Albanian state after it's desolution in 5th (8th) century. --
Hayordi (
talk)
17:08, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
It was discussed previously whether the History of Armenia template should be added. As MarshallBagramyan said: "If anything, a history of Armenia template belongs here since the Albanians had very intimate cultural and undoubtedly ethnic ties to the Armenians, having an alphabet that was probably invented by Mesrop Mashtots and a religious see that was directly subordinate to the Armenian Apostolic Church. The Albanians had disappeared long before the first Turkic invasions of the late eleventh century and certainly far before the modern borders of Azerbaijan were delineated." I believe that is a good reason why the History of Armenia template should be added. Also by claiming History of Azerbaijan template should be added because the current republic is located on the same territory than Armenia used to control majority of the territory as can be seen by this [4]. Ninetoyadome ( talk) 05:57, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
Completely agree. Three points here:
Hmm... Where do you see me stating it was Armenian province for the entire duration of its existence? I stated it was entirely incorporated into Armenia (click the link). You can't compare Caucasian Albanian Church to catholic churches. CA church was a branch of Armenian apostolic church, where at some point the Armenians directly from Armenia served as catholicoses, e.g. St. Grigoris (the grandson of St. Gregory). Armenian was an official language of CA. CAns are part of ethnogenesis of armenians. All of this is allready present in the article and you claim that it's not part of armenian history. That being said how is Azerbaijan connected to CA, when CA ceased to exist prior to Turkic (sorry about turkish in previous add) invasions, and in light of the vast amount of sources allready presented in the article characterizing that claim as bizarre. Hayordi ( talk) 21:24, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
The template is inappropriate, because Armenia suggests land, while the discussions concerns religion as far as I understand. If the Church has become part of the Armenian Apostolic Church, it should rather be like the Catholic Church (here Parishan comparaison applies), the template of the Armenian Apostolic Church, if there is any, should be added instead of Armenia, but Azerbaijan template should have precedence, since checking google map (without using process and authors, which will divert the question), shows that the Republic of Azerbaijan is sitting on that region. Yahya Talatin ( talk) 13:23, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Again, I am using common sense and have been consistent, with a predictable reply and entirely neutral. You added the template of History of Armenia, above Azerbaijans template (your actions spoke to me about precendence), this obviously alone constitute a bias. If you start debating about territories and frontiers, you will be selectivally quoting authors, while he will answer back with his own selection. You two are free to continue this debate or end it just here. Parishan comparaison with the Catholic Church suggest that his problem is not the word Armenia or Armenians, but that he finds the template of History of Armenia inappropriate (I agree with him). A religious template is more general and does not take position regarding ethnicity or territory, but simply indicate an affiliation. I tried changing the template with the Church, but in the review it is too big, which I do not know how to fix. As for History of Azerbaijan, I can tell you why it is there... I just have to check for maps, without needing an author who will show me how to think, and I will see that Azerbaijan is just sitting on it. This does not require an à priori knowledge, about the past, it is an obvious information. Azerbaijan is just a land, this only gives cues about the ethnic makeup, the template isn't claiming anything other than that it is part of that regions history. Yahya Talatin ( talk) 15:40, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Ninetoyadome, those are opinions, and I am not assessing those because they are based on presentation of sourced materials. And you can pratically find sources claiming anything you want. How can Armenia have more in common with Caucasian Albania than Azerbaijan? Those are lands, they are frontiers, these days land name does not say much about their inhabitants. If I claim that any citizen of Azerbaijan no matter his ethnicity is Azerbaijani, then what? Your edit is based on an assumption that just because the word Azerbaijan is there, it assumes something Turkic or Turkish! Those are assumptions and nothing more. If readers can be mislead to believe that, then nothing prevents you from adding clarifications. Mashtots invented the Armenian alphabets, not Armenia. That Caucasian Albania had a shared cultural heritage, would justify adding something about Armenians, not Armenia. Why would you want to restrict your identity to some arbitrary division such as frontiers? The simple fact is that Azerbaijan is sitting on it and not Armenia. Consistency is all I am after. Yahya Talatin ( talk) 19:56, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
@Yahya
Hayordi, the term Azerbaijan existed prior Turkic presence in that land. For the Turkish population to acquire such a name, it has to integrate the Caucasian Albanian, Armenian and Persian heritage. It already integrated the two of them, now they have to do the same with Armenians. It is just a matter of time for that to happen. I do not expect that you even attempt to take anyones argument at face value, your rigidity of opinion is beyond disruptive. I am after consistency, stability and accuracy, you are after process (for the lack of better term). It doesn't even worth discussing with you, it is a waste of time. Yahya Talatin ( talk) 19:56, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Your inconsistencies Hayrodi are striking... whatever name you can find, Atropatene, Azerbaijan, Caucasian Albania... it all relies on words cooked by someone somewhere. You can hit me with process now, for inch by inch sizing of those regions. You are unable to view that you are inconsistent, but anyone uninvolved will see that. Your view of the problem is strongly influenced by the current conflict between both countries.
You are harming your own cause by feeding scholars with endless sourcing, fighting over semantics and word definitions, and this favior those who have limitless ressources and this will create iniquities. Instead of documenting the Armenian ethnogenesis which currently has a life of itself, and requires no much resources and sourcing to document, you favior the land name and frontiers over the group. Lets see with what other wikipedia rule you'll hit me with or what warning you'll come up with. Common people who read articles need general informations separated from temporal info which will be added and removed from here depending of current regional conflicts, new authors etc. A template about Armenians rather than Armenia has this advantage, that it does not rely on borders or land divisions and is therefor stable in time.
I still maintain that the rigidity of your opinions are disruptive, but it takes a level of humility you have yet to express to even attempt to understand the points raised by other editors.
Mind you that back then, there was no UN, EU or other international structures, borders were not standardized, so maps were not standardized. Those maps will all contradict and this will blur anyone. I almost forgot why I left the Lavash article, now I remember. Yahya Talatin ( talk) 02:06, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
To Marshal Bagramyan, we are not discussing about the the same issues, what I raised is that if we are going to discuss about names such as Azerbaijan, we will have to rely on scholarly works. The problem with that is that it divert the issue and leave a selected number of people (scholars) to decide what history is. Thenwho will have to ascertain which source is more credible, assuming bias is disclosed. This will cause conflicts and inconsistencies and only those who have the ressources will dictate what truth is.
The main structure of the articles should be based on unchangeable parameters which do not rely on process, consistency accross all articles should be the rule, then this will resolve the issue. For that to happen, the concession on the Armenian side is to drop History of Armenia and replace it with History of Armenians. Because unlike Azerbaijani's the Armenian identity does not rely mainly on borders. The other sides concession would be to integrate the Armenian heritage in the land, the same way they did with Caucasian Albania, Turkic and Persian. The Armenians should be considered as one of the forfathers of the present day Azerbaijanis. This is just a question of time that it will happen once the people on each countries identity themselves not on the basis of some arbitrary frontier, but their shared heritages. Yahya Talatin ( talk) 02:06, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
The source is: The Azerbayjani's, publisher is The Kindgom of God, writter is Yawhweh Godian, there is no ISBN. Since Yahweh wrote it, I guess I can remove any others sources, since it is the only credible one. Yahya Talatin ( talk) 03:42, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Eupator, exactly my point, consistency would require that. Because the name Azerbaijan derives from a region not a clearly defined people, exactly like Iran. Or else the name Azerbaijan for that region will not resist the impact of time. So anyone can claim the paternity of the name, including Armenians. This will also resolve the issue exactly with Turkey, either they give Kurds a nation and repair Armenians, or they accept to change the name and flag to accomodate the reality of its own history (something more regional than identitary). Armenians see all the disadvantages of historical land loss, but they do not understand that this immortalized the land as an homogenous region where territory and people became one. Reminds me all the seven processes in alchemy, where at the end stage there is coagulation after getting rid of any part which will not stend the test of time. Yahya Talatin ( talk) 12:18, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Hayordi, this is the last time I am trying to argue with you, and this reply isn't for you but others who might be interested.
What Hayordi request is not verifiable sources, but authored works. Because if I was to use an author, the fact that the author included some sources and others, and gave his opinions about issues are all relying on his own personal experiences, his life, his education and his source of financing etc. If an author claims that Armenians never lived in that region and someone quote him, this does not make what is reported as verifiable, because I can not go back in time to verify, I have to solely rely on the authors interpretations of the events and his good faith.
I will for instance take the example of Armenia and Azerbaijan. Armenian history does not solely rely on the academia, and therefor not source dependent. Armenians have their mythology, their architecture, their literature, their art and oral tradition. If tomorow an author was to publish an impressive book, referenced and sourced which cast doubt about things that tradition says otherwise, it will have to rely entirely on process (Ego), his version will be trademarked and attributed to himself, this does not make it verifiable (because his motives, intentions, everything which matters will remain undisclosed). On the other hand, the identity Azerbaijani entirely relies for its survival on the academia, the ego. The problem with this, is that this identity to survive require a ressource (and energy), material ressources are not stable in time, it has to either mutate or disappear. This is what happened with Caucasian Albania etc (which culture relied on an external force, Armenian Apostolic Church, to survive). It is actually not an accident and a good thing that Armenia has lost all those lands. Because maintaining frontiers require ressources, particularly if its inhabitants spent all their ressources on cultural inovation rather than birth rate, invasion etc. To stat all of this, again, I am using common sense, which does not require any sources because it does not rely on process, ego or some alien terms. This from years of reading and removing and distinguishing what is not binded to the ego and what is. Permanent vs temporal.
When articles are written, the squeleton (I feel I am repeating myself) has to solely be based on common sense, or obvious informations which do not rely on some authors, particularly when those authors are scolarised (because more you are scolarised more you rely on process and less on direct observation). Because scholarisation is all based on the study of other scholarised authors, who themselves rely on process (other authors). If I find one of the authors conclusion was wrong, and an entire pyramid is built on him, what happens then? They obviously can not be more valid than art, culture, mythology, architecture... which can hardly be corrupted and manipulated, because thoserely on the mass rather than some elites who can easily be corrupted. The squeleton also should not rely on informations which can be contradicted, such as numbers, frontiers, territories... because all of those rely on precision, which on its turn rely on the Ego.
To show how ridiculous Hayordi replies can get, when he constently request sources for any bit of things I write is that he never countered my observations. How can an academic who defend a position (by the simple fact that he publish) any more credible than I who do not rely on any authors but on constants which unlike authors are not mortals, and unlike authors will never be discarded. If they are by anyone, it is a question of time, that the Ego which does it will not resist the test of time.
I am not opposing authors, what I am opposing is the indiscriminate use of sources. The simpletons like me are those who have to accept and discard sources, because we have no affiliations which will bias us. Common sense, is a core innate nature we have, which is ego-independent. Yahya Talatin ( talk) 21:59, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
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It is clear that there is link between this dissolved kingdom in the past and the country Albania in Europe today, because when this Albania phased out, "albanians" started to appear in the West Balkans - west parts of Greece, Macedonia and Serbia. What is the link, and who transferred Albanians to Europe? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.217.58.181 ( talk) 15:37, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
There is no primary or secondary source to back that up,so it is with the highest probability not true. Euripides ψ ( talk) 18:29, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
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I Believe That Template: History of Azerbaijan Must Be Added In This Article Oyuncu Aykhan ( talk) 17:21, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
{{
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Mlpearc (
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17:54, 13 January 2017 (UTC)Good evening.
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I do hereby submit the following request to be added unto the Caucasian Albania page.
I request that Image:Coatof_Mihranids.png to be added into the Infobox page as a flag, above the Map. The image of the flag is embedded to the right of this request.
--
2602:306:39D6:CBA0:6DE1:C229:57F1:8864 (
talk)
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Under Christianization, the line, "The first Christian church in the region was built by St. Eliseus, a disciple of Thaddeus of Edessa" includes an incorrect link. The phrase St. Eliseus wrongly links to the article about the biblical figure of Elisha. These are different men although their names are the same. 1.127.105.246 ( talk) 12:10, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
This part has nothing to do to give useful information to reader. Editor mainly wrote more about complaints of armenians rather giving information about Caucasian Albania in Azerbaijan historiography. I think this part is bias and must be edited. If it will be approved I will start editing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mirhasanov ( talk • contribs) 17:07, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
В. А. Шнирельман. "Войны памяти. Мифы, идентичность и политика в Закавказье", М., ИКЦ, "Академкнига", 2003. - Author could you please advise what is relationship of this reference to Azerbaijan Historiography of Albania? This book talks about Georgian Abakhazian issue. Mirhasanov ( talk) 15:13, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
When Azeris claim that the Caucasian Albanians built those churches, may I ask you what language they were speaking at the time? All those churches have ancient Armenian scripts engraved on the walls. Is the Azerbaijani government going to claim that Azerbaijanis created the Armenian alphabet too? Honestly, this falsification of history is getting out of hand. If Azerbaijan wants to gain credibility, they better invite international historians, archeologists, and genetic scientists to analyze the artifacts. But of course, they won't do that. Since the 1950s, they were trying too hard to falsify the history by destroying any proof that Armenians are the actual owners of the Nagorno Karabagh. And now that they have access to even more Armenian artifacts, they will destroy those too and claim that those are historic Azerbaijani artifacts. Just watch them claim that the ancient Armenian churches are Azerbaijani. Azerbaijan needs to be held responsible for falsifying history and ethnically cleansing Armenians. Vache Megerdichi ( talk) 09:54, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
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Here it says that the Armenian alphabet was stolen from albania, which is incorrect. Our alphabets was found by mesrop mashtots In 405 CE. Here is the link to prove this.
https://www.ancient.eu/Mesrop_Mashtots/ 2600:6C50:407F:F997:7DEB:4138:1EBE:1BD3 ( talk) 07:53, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
@ Muffin Dragon: Please self-revert and discuss here before changing the map. — CuriousGolden (T· C) 19:00, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
Add source Muffin Dragon ( talk) 19:06, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
Add a source to the map Muffin Dragon ( talk) 19:17, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
Ok 👍 Muffin Dragon ( talk) 20:06, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
The map was changed without consensus. A caucasian independent state as its greatest extent reached Kur river, suggested by vast majority of experts. This article is becoming a blog, pushing azerbaijani narrative. The maps of Aghuank (a geographical region of Armenia) and Aluank (Caucasian Albania) are misrepresented as Caucasian Albania State. In Azerbaijani Histography section there is a quote of Thomas de Waal regarding such narrative This rather bizarre argument has the strong political subtext that Nagorno Karabakh had in fact been Caucasian Albanian and that Armenians had no claim to it. This map is simply bizarre. It has no historical basis Addictedtohistory ( talk) 19:05, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
I am really sorry. But how is Iberia (part of Spain) and Albania (Southern Europe) been represented in a map, beside each other, in the Caucases? Are these people describing a piece of fiction/fantasy? Or is this an attempt for propaganda?
You decide.... Nkatsieris ( talk) 20:47, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
There is a state in the southeastern United States called "Georgia," and thousands of miles away in the Caucasus mountains there is also a country (called "Sakartvelo" in the local language) which in English & some other languages is called "Georgia." These are two different places.
Similarly, there is a country (called "Shqipëri" in the local language) which in English & some other languages is called "Albania" (from the Latin word "alba," meaning "white") and there was historically an entirely different place, in the Caucasus mountains, also known as "Albania" (sometimes called "Caucasian Albania" to distinguish it from Balkan Albania).
Likewise, there was historically a Caucasian region caked "Iberia" which was thousands miles from the peninsula called "Iberia" which includes Spain & Portugal. UrielAcosta ( talk) 17:06, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
Sorry, that should be "called Iberia" & not "caked Iberia," obviously. UrielAcosta ( talk) 17:07, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
Hello, I have made a new map of Caucasian Albania with the help of User:HistoryofIran and would like to replace it with the current one in the infobox. Please tell me what you think and if there's any way the map can be improved. — CuriousGolden (T· C) 19:59, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
Gentlemen, CuriousGolden & HistoryofIran, am I missing something, or are you now the administrators and owners of Wikipedia? You, two participants, most likely from Azerbaijan, discussed with each other and literally less than a month ago introduced this map into the article, without any broad discussion and consensus. This map does not illustrate the real history of Caucasian Albania, which by the 4-5 centuries turned into a vassal formation from Persia. For the first 500 years of its existence, this state did not include the land south of the Kura River. This VERY significant fact is not illustrated in any way on your map. While on this map (by Kamilla Trever), this fact is shown. -- Rs4815 ( talk) 15:43, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
Whilst this map is still being sorted out, and whilst it is still not as well referenced, whilst it does not consensus, it should be reverted back to the original map, or alternatively to a pre-existing referenced map of which wikimedia has a few. If we are using the Hewsen map, that doesn't match at all with the map that's been added. If one feels that the pre-existing maps were too small, that sounds a lot like WP:JDLI. Are we mixing up maps of different centuries to get the largest possible territory that might pass muster, with Hewsen simply being another map to add a little more? Maidyouneed ( talk) 02:27, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
The map above simply interpolates Aghuank (geographic region of Armenia) with Aghuank (Caucasian Albania) east of Kur and is not based on factual history. This Article is becoming an blog that pushes Azerbaijani narrative. Support revert per Maidyouneed Addictedtohistory. Changes should be based on facts. Addictedtohistory ( talk) 19:42, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
I've reverted the infobox map back to the original. To add what has already been commented, I am wary too of combining multiple different maps/sources over multiple time periods to thus synthesise an original new map. Caucasian Albania already has many sourced maps over many periods, without having to create new ones. Maidyouneed ( talk) 07:36, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
Uninvolved editor here.
The map is user-created, and this can be construed as original research WP:No original research. While I am sure it was created in good faith with the intention of accuracy, and plenty of articles feature user-created maps, clearly the extent of Caucasian Albania before it became a province of the Sassanid Empire is controversial.
To avoid these issues, I think the map should be removed, placed further down in the article with explanation, or replaced with a map from a published source that is in the public domain.
Cheers, Fredlesaltique ( talk) 07:39, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
In the wikipedia page, it is written that Strabo wrote that there are 26 tribes of Caucasian Albania. However only 11 of these tribes are mentioned in the page: "Utians, Mycians, Caspians, Gargarians, Sakasenians, Gelians, Sodians, Lupenians, Balas[ak]anians, Parsians and Parrasians." I am curious to know whether if there are more names that can be found. EpeBah ( talk) 06:18, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
In Armenian agh means "salt", in Caucasian Avarian language this agh word means "strength",also Mongolian aag 1."fortress, infusion, sharpness, bitterness"2.Superiority, strength, heat, ardor, pride, arrogance.The name of the country is NO EXONYM. It is high time to stop the policy of writing strange versions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wrkan ( talk • contribs) 19:37, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Because of the continued nationalistic edit-warring about this article and associated disruption, I am imposing the following sanctions:
Under the Arbitration Committee's decision at
WP:ARBAA2#Amended Remedies and Enforcement, the following discretionary sanctions apply to this article:
|
These sanctions are also logged on the case page and displayed to editors in the article and talk page's edit notice. Sandstein 21:33, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
Any input regarding this split? I found this on an old backlog.... Or can this simply be removed Tiggerjay ( talk) 06:47, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
Strabo was talk about 26 Alban tribes. Can anyone write their names here ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.106.135.192 ( talk) 17:10, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
Just as a reminder, Ancient Greek -β- is transliterated /b/, not /v/ as it often is in Modern Greek. See: Romanization of Greek. — LlywelynII 22:05, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
Seeing the above, not sure if the guy is coming with too much baggage, but
seems to be pretty knowledgeable about the subject. Even if his findings (e.g. on etymology) are questionable, I would think his research and theories could be incorporated, given the appropriate NPOV tone. — LlywelynII 03:37, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
During the construction of Mingechaur reservoir in western Azerbaijan, have been found skeletons of ancient burial certificate of the fact that the physical type of the ancient population of Caucasian Albania was the same how modern. It was a thin-faced miniature Caspians. Direct descendants of which are Azerbaijanis. Historically, it looked like this: some ancient people with the characteristics of Indo-Afghan race moved from their original habitat - from Afghanistan or a North India - to the north: in the desert oases of Central Asia and Eastern Transcaucasia. Thus, the origins of physical characteristics of the modern population of Azerbaijan go back to the early Iron Age. [1] [2] [3] -- Elgun.babayev ( talk) 10:13, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
You need to find a good source to add a claim like that. Just adding a sentence like that is a big dispute to scholars all around, find legitimate sources that state something like as you wrote than maybe we can discuss further. To what my knowledge only Azerbaijan sources usually claim that Azeri people are descendants of Albanians. A source that is neutral and with reliable author is what we need to go with that claim. -- Nocturnal781 ( talk) 11:55, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
The sentence was almost entirely taken from the "Origins" section at the page Azerbaijani people and it seemed to me that certain page have went through enough of discussions. That's why I thought those sources I gave are reliable enough. Azerbek ( talk) 23:25, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Everybody interested in this article, please be aware of this WP:AE appeal: [2] I requested a partial amendment of the sanctions, further info is available in my appeal. Regards, Grand master 10:07, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
TwilightChill has been disruptive deleting parts of the article appealing to WP:CHERRY and NPOV policies. concerns do not apply. The chapter on Caucasian Albania and Azerbaijani revisionism are about a well known academic subject that is reported in works of a number of unrelated, unbiased Western and Russian scholars from reputable academic institutions. These are: Robert Hewsen, Thomas de Waal, Victor Schnirelmann, George Bournoutian and Yoav Karny. All of them have the same opinion that Azeri revisionism is a nationalist doctrine that misuses the history of Caucasian Albania. So, NPOV is covered. In fact, I omitted their more expressive language to keep the chapter on the neutral side. WP:CHERRY does not apply because there are no NPOV sources which would refute or question the assessment of the above mentioned academics. TwilightChill shall collaborate with other editors and refrain from disruptive tactics. Gorzaim ( talk) 19:31, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
Please do not add POV claims, the wiki articles are not a place for propaganda. Also, there's a lot of Armenian revisionism described by the same Shnirelman and de Waal, why the section should be only about Azerbaijani and not Armenian revisionism? How about describing revisionist claims by the likes of Mnatsakanyan and Ulubabyan, etc, I can write a large section about Armenian revisionism. I just see no point in adding to the article info that has no direct relation to this ancient state. Grand master 08:53, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
First of all concerning comments about Armenian reviosionism - all those authors are speaking about certain Armenian historians. Well, there are always historians with controversial points of view. On the other hand, they speak about state-sponsored Azerbaijani revisionism and falsification. So comparing Armenian and Azerbaijani historiography is not actually fair. After all, Armenian historians did not falsify the sources as they wanted or needed, whereas the moder Azerbaijani historiography (concerning CA) is basically based on translations of historical sources, where the word 'Armenian' was ommited or changed to 'Albanian'. And second - Armenians never claimed rights on any Albanian cultural or historical value, whereas Azerbaijanis, based on their biased theories, claim some rights on Armenian churches and literature of the region. One should like to have this information on wiki. This is highly important, in my opinion, since one can hardly find any other nation in modern world, with similar claims (I will be thankful, if one contradicts me giving a certain example). So I don't understand what's the problem with Azerbaijani reviosionism section? Is it too long? Well, I do agree, one could write it shorter. But this is not a reason for CHERRY or NPOV tag. Please, explain your views, because the discussion above is quiet strange and difficult to follow. Thanks.
Хаченци (
talk)
04:13, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
The section on revisionism is quite controversial to be added by sockpuppet accounts without a proper discussion here. And in all honesty, I do not believe that it really belongs in this article. This article is about history, whereas adding this information unnecessarily politicises the subject. Readers access this article to find out about an ancient country, not how its history is regarded by a bunch of researchers. If the so-called revisionism is so important, it may be mentioned in a separate article, and only on the condition that revisionism trends in both Azerbaijan and Armenia are addressed, which they certainly do according to the sources provided here. Parishan ( talk) 22:36, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Arran is the Persian name for the geographical area in Caucasus, but also a toponym for the Caucasian Albania during it's exsistence (4th c. BC - 5th (8th) c. AD). A lot of content incorrectly relates the geographical area to the pre-exsisting state, through misuse of sources. Here is an example from the article:
Albania or Arran in Islamic times was a triangle of land, lowland in the east and mountainous in the west, formed by the junction of the Kura and Aras rivers, Mil plain and parts of the Mughan plain.
While the source this content refers to (
Arran) states:
ARRĀN, a region of eastern Transcaucasia. It lay essentially within the great triangle of land, lowland in the east but rising to mountains in the west, formed by the junction of the Rivers Kur or Kura and Araxes or Aras.
The title of the reference source itself is ARRĀN a region of eastern Transcaucasia. So we see clear missinterpretation of source. I propose to remove any such incorrect, misleading content, and in future disambiguate Arran toponym from Caucasian Albanian state after it's desolution in 5th (8th) century. --
Hayordi (
talk)
17:08, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
It was discussed previously whether the History of Armenia template should be added. As MarshallBagramyan said: "If anything, a history of Armenia template belongs here since the Albanians had very intimate cultural and undoubtedly ethnic ties to the Armenians, having an alphabet that was probably invented by Mesrop Mashtots and a religious see that was directly subordinate to the Armenian Apostolic Church. The Albanians had disappeared long before the first Turkic invasions of the late eleventh century and certainly far before the modern borders of Azerbaijan were delineated." I believe that is a good reason why the History of Armenia template should be added. Also by claiming History of Azerbaijan template should be added because the current republic is located on the same territory than Armenia used to control majority of the territory as can be seen by this [4]. Ninetoyadome ( talk) 05:57, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
Completely agree. Three points here:
Hmm... Where do you see me stating it was Armenian province for the entire duration of its existence? I stated it was entirely incorporated into Armenia (click the link). You can't compare Caucasian Albanian Church to catholic churches. CA church was a branch of Armenian apostolic church, where at some point the Armenians directly from Armenia served as catholicoses, e.g. St. Grigoris (the grandson of St. Gregory). Armenian was an official language of CA. CAns are part of ethnogenesis of armenians. All of this is allready present in the article and you claim that it's not part of armenian history. That being said how is Azerbaijan connected to CA, when CA ceased to exist prior to Turkic (sorry about turkish in previous add) invasions, and in light of the vast amount of sources allready presented in the article characterizing that claim as bizarre. Hayordi ( talk) 21:24, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
The template is inappropriate, because Armenia suggests land, while the discussions concerns religion as far as I understand. If the Church has become part of the Armenian Apostolic Church, it should rather be like the Catholic Church (here Parishan comparaison applies), the template of the Armenian Apostolic Church, if there is any, should be added instead of Armenia, but Azerbaijan template should have precedence, since checking google map (without using process and authors, which will divert the question), shows that the Republic of Azerbaijan is sitting on that region. Yahya Talatin ( talk) 13:23, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Again, I am using common sense and have been consistent, with a predictable reply and entirely neutral. You added the template of History of Armenia, above Azerbaijans template (your actions spoke to me about precendence), this obviously alone constitute a bias. If you start debating about territories and frontiers, you will be selectivally quoting authors, while he will answer back with his own selection. You two are free to continue this debate or end it just here. Parishan comparaison with the Catholic Church suggest that his problem is not the word Armenia or Armenians, but that he finds the template of History of Armenia inappropriate (I agree with him). A religious template is more general and does not take position regarding ethnicity or territory, but simply indicate an affiliation. I tried changing the template with the Church, but in the review it is too big, which I do not know how to fix. As for History of Azerbaijan, I can tell you why it is there... I just have to check for maps, without needing an author who will show me how to think, and I will see that Azerbaijan is just sitting on it. This does not require an à priori knowledge, about the past, it is an obvious information. Azerbaijan is just a land, this only gives cues about the ethnic makeup, the template isn't claiming anything other than that it is part of that regions history. Yahya Talatin ( talk) 15:40, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Ninetoyadome, those are opinions, and I am not assessing those because they are based on presentation of sourced materials. And you can pratically find sources claiming anything you want. How can Armenia have more in common with Caucasian Albania than Azerbaijan? Those are lands, they are frontiers, these days land name does not say much about their inhabitants. If I claim that any citizen of Azerbaijan no matter his ethnicity is Azerbaijani, then what? Your edit is based on an assumption that just because the word Azerbaijan is there, it assumes something Turkic or Turkish! Those are assumptions and nothing more. If readers can be mislead to believe that, then nothing prevents you from adding clarifications. Mashtots invented the Armenian alphabets, not Armenia. That Caucasian Albania had a shared cultural heritage, would justify adding something about Armenians, not Armenia. Why would you want to restrict your identity to some arbitrary division such as frontiers? The simple fact is that Azerbaijan is sitting on it and not Armenia. Consistency is all I am after. Yahya Talatin ( talk) 19:56, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
@Yahya
Hayordi, the term Azerbaijan existed prior Turkic presence in that land. For the Turkish population to acquire such a name, it has to integrate the Caucasian Albanian, Armenian and Persian heritage. It already integrated the two of them, now they have to do the same with Armenians. It is just a matter of time for that to happen. I do not expect that you even attempt to take anyones argument at face value, your rigidity of opinion is beyond disruptive. I am after consistency, stability and accuracy, you are after process (for the lack of better term). It doesn't even worth discussing with you, it is a waste of time. Yahya Talatin ( talk) 19:56, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Your inconsistencies Hayrodi are striking... whatever name you can find, Atropatene, Azerbaijan, Caucasian Albania... it all relies on words cooked by someone somewhere. You can hit me with process now, for inch by inch sizing of those regions. You are unable to view that you are inconsistent, but anyone uninvolved will see that. Your view of the problem is strongly influenced by the current conflict between both countries.
You are harming your own cause by feeding scholars with endless sourcing, fighting over semantics and word definitions, and this favior those who have limitless ressources and this will create iniquities. Instead of documenting the Armenian ethnogenesis which currently has a life of itself, and requires no much resources and sourcing to document, you favior the land name and frontiers over the group. Lets see with what other wikipedia rule you'll hit me with or what warning you'll come up with. Common people who read articles need general informations separated from temporal info which will be added and removed from here depending of current regional conflicts, new authors etc. A template about Armenians rather than Armenia has this advantage, that it does not rely on borders or land divisions and is therefor stable in time.
I still maintain that the rigidity of your opinions are disruptive, but it takes a level of humility you have yet to express to even attempt to understand the points raised by other editors.
Mind you that back then, there was no UN, EU or other international structures, borders were not standardized, so maps were not standardized. Those maps will all contradict and this will blur anyone. I almost forgot why I left the Lavash article, now I remember. Yahya Talatin ( talk) 02:06, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
To Marshal Bagramyan, we are not discussing about the the same issues, what I raised is that if we are going to discuss about names such as Azerbaijan, we will have to rely on scholarly works. The problem with that is that it divert the issue and leave a selected number of people (scholars) to decide what history is. Thenwho will have to ascertain which source is more credible, assuming bias is disclosed. This will cause conflicts and inconsistencies and only those who have the ressources will dictate what truth is.
The main structure of the articles should be based on unchangeable parameters which do not rely on process, consistency accross all articles should be the rule, then this will resolve the issue. For that to happen, the concession on the Armenian side is to drop History of Armenia and replace it with History of Armenians. Because unlike Azerbaijani's the Armenian identity does not rely mainly on borders. The other sides concession would be to integrate the Armenian heritage in the land, the same way they did with Caucasian Albania, Turkic and Persian. The Armenians should be considered as one of the forfathers of the present day Azerbaijanis. This is just a question of time that it will happen once the people on each countries identity themselves not on the basis of some arbitrary frontier, but their shared heritages. Yahya Talatin ( talk) 02:06, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
The source is: The Azerbayjani's, publisher is The Kindgom of God, writter is Yawhweh Godian, there is no ISBN. Since Yahweh wrote it, I guess I can remove any others sources, since it is the only credible one. Yahya Talatin ( talk) 03:42, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Eupator, exactly my point, consistency would require that. Because the name Azerbaijan derives from a region not a clearly defined people, exactly like Iran. Or else the name Azerbaijan for that region will not resist the impact of time. So anyone can claim the paternity of the name, including Armenians. This will also resolve the issue exactly with Turkey, either they give Kurds a nation and repair Armenians, or they accept to change the name and flag to accomodate the reality of its own history (something more regional than identitary). Armenians see all the disadvantages of historical land loss, but they do not understand that this immortalized the land as an homogenous region where territory and people became one. Reminds me all the seven processes in alchemy, where at the end stage there is coagulation after getting rid of any part which will not stend the test of time. Yahya Talatin ( talk) 12:18, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Hayordi, this is the last time I am trying to argue with you, and this reply isn't for you but others who might be interested.
What Hayordi request is not verifiable sources, but authored works. Because if I was to use an author, the fact that the author included some sources and others, and gave his opinions about issues are all relying on his own personal experiences, his life, his education and his source of financing etc. If an author claims that Armenians never lived in that region and someone quote him, this does not make what is reported as verifiable, because I can not go back in time to verify, I have to solely rely on the authors interpretations of the events and his good faith.
I will for instance take the example of Armenia and Azerbaijan. Armenian history does not solely rely on the academia, and therefor not source dependent. Armenians have their mythology, their architecture, their literature, their art and oral tradition. If tomorow an author was to publish an impressive book, referenced and sourced which cast doubt about things that tradition says otherwise, it will have to rely entirely on process (Ego), his version will be trademarked and attributed to himself, this does not make it verifiable (because his motives, intentions, everything which matters will remain undisclosed). On the other hand, the identity Azerbaijani entirely relies for its survival on the academia, the ego. The problem with this, is that this identity to survive require a ressource (and energy), material ressources are not stable in time, it has to either mutate or disappear. This is what happened with Caucasian Albania etc (which culture relied on an external force, Armenian Apostolic Church, to survive). It is actually not an accident and a good thing that Armenia has lost all those lands. Because maintaining frontiers require ressources, particularly if its inhabitants spent all their ressources on cultural inovation rather than birth rate, invasion etc. To stat all of this, again, I am using common sense, which does not require any sources because it does not rely on process, ego or some alien terms. This from years of reading and removing and distinguishing what is not binded to the ego and what is. Permanent vs temporal.
When articles are written, the squeleton (I feel I am repeating myself) has to solely be based on common sense, or obvious informations which do not rely on some authors, particularly when those authors are scolarised (because more you are scolarised more you rely on process and less on direct observation). Because scholarisation is all based on the study of other scholarised authors, who themselves rely on process (other authors). If I find one of the authors conclusion was wrong, and an entire pyramid is built on him, what happens then? They obviously can not be more valid than art, culture, mythology, architecture... which can hardly be corrupted and manipulated, because thoserely on the mass rather than some elites who can easily be corrupted. The squeleton also should not rely on informations which can be contradicted, such as numbers, frontiers, territories... because all of those rely on precision, which on its turn rely on the Ego.
To show how ridiculous Hayordi replies can get, when he constently request sources for any bit of things I write is that he never countered my observations. How can an academic who defend a position (by the simple fact that he publish) any more credible than I who do not rely on any authors but on constants which unlike authors are not mortals, and unlike authors will never be discarded. If they are by anyone, it is a question of time, that the Ego which does it will not resist the test of time.
I am not opposing authors, what I am opposing is the indiscriminate use of sources. The simpletons like me are those who have to accept and discard sources, because we have no affiliations which will bias us. Common sense, is a core innate nature we have, which is ego-independent. Yahya Talatin ( talk) 21:59, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
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It is clear that there is link between this dissolved kingdom in the past and the country Albania in Europe today, because when this Albania phased out, "albanians" started to appear in the West Balkans - west parts of Greece, Macedonia and Serbia. What is the link, and who transferred Albanians to Europe? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.217.58.181 ( talk) 15:37, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
There is no primary or secondary source to back that up,so it is with the highest probability not true. Euripides ψ ( talk) 18:29, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
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I Believe That Template: History of Azerbaijan Must Be Added In This Article Oyuncu Aykhan ( talk) 17:21, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
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17:54, 13 January 2017 (UTC)Good evening.
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I do hereby submit the following request to be added unto the Caucasian Albania page.
I request that Image:Coatof_Mihranids.png to be added into the Infobox page as a flag, above the Map. The image of the flag is embedded to the right of this request.
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Under Christianization, the line, "The first Christian church in the region was built by St. Eliseus, a disciple of Thaddeus of Edessa" includes an incorrect link. The phrase St. Eliseus wrongly links to the article about the biblical figure of Elisha. These are different men although their names are the same. 1.127.105.246 ( talk) 12:10, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
This part has nothing to do to give useful information to reader. Editor mainly wrote more about complaints of armenians rather giving information about Caucasian Albania in Azerbaijan historiography. I think this part is bias and must be edited. If it will be approved I will start editing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mirhasanov ( talk • contribs) 17:07, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
В. А. Шнирельман. "Войны памяти. Мифы, идентичность и политика в Закавказье", М., ИКЦ, "Академкнига", 2003. - Author could you please advise what is relationship of this reference to Azerbaijan Historiography of Albania? This book talks about Georgian Abakhazian issue. Mirhasanov ( talk) 15:13, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
When Azeris claim that the Caucasian Albanians built those churches, may I ask you what language they were speaking at the time? All those churches have ancient Armenian scripts engraved on the walls. Is the Azerbaijani government going to claim that Azerbaijanis created the Armenian alphabet too? Honestly, this falsification of history is getting out of hand. If Azerbaijan wants to gain credibility, they better invite international historians, archeologists, and genetic scientists to analyze the artifacts. But of course, they won't do that. Since the 1950s, they were trying too hard to falsify the history by destroying any proof that Armenians are the actual owners of the Nagorno Karabagh. And now that they have access to even more Armenian artifacts, they will destroy those too and claim that those are historic Azerbaijani artifacts. Just watch them claim that the ancient Armenian churches are Azerbaijani. Azerbaijan needs to be held responsible for falsifying history and ethnically cleansing Armenians. Vache Megerdichi ( talk) 09:54, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
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Here it says that the Armenian alphabet was stolen from albania, which is incorrect. Our alphabets was found by mesrop mashtots In 405 CE. Here is the link to prove this.
https://www.ancient.eu/Mesrop_Mashtots/ 2600:6C50:407F:F997:7DEB:4138:1EBE:1BD3 ( talk) 07:53, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
@ Muffin Dragon: Please self-revert and discuss here before changing the map. — CuriousGolden (T· C) 19:00, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
Add source Muffin Dragon ( talk) 19:06, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
Add a source to the map Muffin Dragon ( talk) 19:17, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
Ok 👍 Muffin Dragon ( talk) 20:06, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
The map was changed without consensus. A caucasian independent state as its greatest extent reached Kur river, suggested by vast majority of experts. This article is becoming a blog, pushing azerbaijani narrative. The maps of Aghuank (a geographical region of Armenia) and Aluank (Caucasian Albania) are misrepresented as Caucasian Albania State. In Azerbaijani Histography section there is a quote of Thomas de Waal regarding such narrative This rather bizarre argument has the strong political subtext that Nagorno Karabakh had in fact been Caucasian Albanian and that Armenians had no claim to it. This map is simply bizarre. It has no historical basis Addictedtohistory ( talk) 19:05, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
I am really sorry. But how is Iberia (part of Spain) and Albania (Southern Europe) been represented in a map, beside each other, in the Caucases? Are these people describing a piece of fiction/fantasy? Or is this an attempt for propaganda?
You decide.... Nkatsieris ( talk) 20:47, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
There is a state in the southeastern United States called "Georgia," and thousands of miles away in the Caucasus mountains there is also a country (called "Sakartvelo" in the local language) which in English & some other languages is called "Georgia." These are two different places.
Similarly, there is a country (called "Shqipëri" in the local language) which in English & some other languages is called "Albania" (from the Latin word "alba," meaning "white") and there was historically an entirely different place, in the Caucasus mountains, also known as "Albania" (sometimes called "Caucasian Albania" to distinguish it from Balkan Albania).
Likewise, there was historically a Caucasian region caked "Iberia" which was thousands miles from the peninsula called "Iberia" which includes Spain & Portugal. UrielAcosta ( talk) 17:06, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
Sorry, that should be "called Iberia" & not "caked Iberia," obviously. UrielAcosta ( talk) 17:07, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
Hello, I have made a new map of Caucasian Albania with the help of User:HistoryofIran and would like to replace it with the current one in the infobox. Please tell me what you think and if there's any way the map can be improved. — CuriousGolden (T· C) 19:59, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
Gentlemen, CuriousGolden & HistoryofIran, am I missing something, or are you now the administrators and owners of Wikipedia? You, two participants, most likely from Azerbaijan, discussed with each other and literally less than a month ago introduced this map into the article, without any broad discussion and consensus. This map does not illustrate the real history of Caucasian Albania, which by the 4-5 centuries turned into a vassal formation from Persia. For the first 500 years of its existence, this state did not include the land south of the Kura River. This VERY significant fact is not illustrated in any way on your map. While on this map (by Kamilla Trever), this fact is shown. -- Rs4815 ( talk) 15:43, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
Whilst this map is still being sorted out, and whilst it is still not as well referenced, whilst it does not consensus, it should be reverted back to the original map, or alternatively to a pre-existing referenced map of which wikimedia has a few. If we are using the Hewsen map, that doesn't match at all with the map that's been added. If one feels that the pre-existing maps were too small, that sounds a lot like WP:JDLI. Are we mixing up maps of different centuries to get the largest possible territory that might pass muster, with Hewsen simply being another map to add a little more? Maidyouneed ( talk) 02:27, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
The map above simply interpolates Aghuank (geographic region of Armenia) with Aghuank (Caucasian Albania) east of Kur and is not based on factual history. This Article is becoming an blog that pushes Azerbaijani narrative. Support revert per Maidyouneed Addictedtohistory. Changes should be based on facts. Addictedtohistory ( talk) 19:42, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
I've reverted the infobox map back to the original. To add what has already been commented, I am wary too of combining multiple different maps/sources over multiple time periods to thus synthesise an original new map. Caucasian Albania already has many sourced maps over many periods, without having to create new ones. Maidyouneed ( talk) 07:36, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
Uninvolved editor here.
The map is user-created, and this can be construed as original research WP:No original research. While I am sure it was created in good faith with the intention of accuracy, and plenty of articles feature user-created maps, clearly the extent of Caucasian Albania before it became a province of the Sassanid Empire is controversial.
To avoid these issues, I think the map should be removed, placed further down in the article with explanation, or replaced with a map from a published source that is in the public domain.
Cheers, Fredlesaltique ( talk) 07:39, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
In the wikipedia page, it is written that Strabo wrote that there are 26 tribes of Caucasian Albania. However only 11 of these tribes are mentioned in the page: "Utians, Mycians, Caspians, Gargarians, Sakasenians, Gelians, Sodians, Lupenians, Balas[ak]anians, Parsians and Parrasians." I am curious to know whether if there are more names that can be found. EpeBah ( talk) 06:18, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
In Armenian agh means "salt", in Caucasian Avarian language this agh word means "strength",also Mongolian aag 1."fortress, infusion, sharpness, bitterness"2.Superiority, strength, heat, ardor, pride, arrogance.The name of the country is NO EXONYM. It is high time to stop the policy of writing strange versions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wrkan ( talk • contribs) 19:37, 1 July 2022 (UTC)