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The Western Rite of the Catholic Church is often referred to as the "Roman Catholic Church". Yet, there is more than one rite of Catholicism. The Roman rite is the largest, but there is also Byzantine Catholicism, Chaldean Catholicism, etc. None of these are Roman Catholic, but they are still Catholic. The Catholic Church is not, as the lead says, "also known as the Roman Catholic Church". The latter is instead a part of the former. Thus, if this article is to refer to the global Church, shouldn't we remove or revise the part in the lead that specifically links the whole Church to one particular part of it? Display name 99 ( talk) 15:31, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
Endorsement by the church itself would be a primary source and unsuitable for use. What we need is third-party sources on the topic. Per Wikipedia:Identifying and using independent sources: "Any publication put out by an organization is clearly not independent of any topic that organization has an interest in promoting." Dimadick ( talk) 14:51, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
There is only the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church has many rites. The one that is most recognized is the Latin Rite. This issue is found in no other language other than English and is an accident of the English Reformation.
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Catholic which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 15:47, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
I was trying to figure out why one of the many Wikipedia 'bot' accounts would do something weird, like mention a discussion that was 6 months old. I summarized what I found here at that bot's talk page. (I'm not going to blame you for a bot's confusion, hopefully something they can fix).
But I did make me wonder at the original change to the redirect at Catholic, where you changed the redirect from Catholicism to Catholic Church. Something to consider always when thinking about a word or a term here is 'who' is asking a question by searching for the word/term. I'm thinking of three different ways that word could be used:
I believe if you consider how the term is commonly used by the public, relative to the English-speaking world, it would be something like the first two, describing either a person or some text being read. Even when saying "Is the Pope 'catholic'?" I would think the better reference would be 'Catholicism' rather than 'Catholic Church', because it gets to the root question better - "What is this about?"
I think you must be considering these terms according to the 'correctness' of the definitions, rather than how the terms are used by people. It is a subtle difference, from worrying about the correctness of word usage to instead worrying about how people will navigate Wikipedia, in spite of the fact they perhaps use words 'wrongly'. A term that can be used as a generalization ought to go to a generalized article.
I think elsewhere you even argue that "Catholic Church" should be applied to the more general category of "all catholic churches". But again, my worry is how a regular person will use Wikipedia. In most of the English-speaking world, "Catholic Church" is commonly used to mean the "Roman Catholic Church". It is how a word/term is commonly used, how people will encounter the word/term/phrase, that should most influence how articles are named. The academic person will persist in research, but my neighbor will only look at the first article that appears. That first article should be the best possible for an ordinary person.
Please consider how words are commonly used (outside of a dictionary :-) ) as an independent reason to name articles, quite apart from strict academically correct meanings. Shenme ( talk) 02:50, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
I opened a discussion on groupings in Christianity, of which there currently seems to lack a consensus on Wikipedia. The discussion might be of interest for followers of this talk page. Please see: Talk:Christianity#Denominations. Chicbyaccident ( talk) 12:16, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
What I meant is the Catholic Church contends it is unable to ordain women, not the critics contend their criticisms; it was my attempt to add balance to the article. Bettering the Wiki ( talk) 04:08, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
The Founded date is not in the Timeline of the Catholic Church, which you keep linking to. It is also totally un-verifably in that based on Catholic theology. To ask when it was founded asks "what is the Catholic Church"? No one (outside the Catholic Church) considers the Church of Rome to be founded in Jerusalem. tahc chat 18:59, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
Why do you want a "source" for a "fact" that you you yourself object to adding to the article? tahc chat 17:36, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
Page:
Category:Persecution by atheists (
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talk |
history |
links |
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logs)
Discussion:
Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2017_January_19#Category:Persecution_by_atheists
Deletion of Category:Persecution by atheists has been requested for review. Please share your comments at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2017_January_19#Category:Persecution_by_atheists, regardless of your opinion. The atheism article Talk page has also received a notification. Eliko007 ( talk) 22:30, 31 January 2017 (UTC) (Reworded for policy compliance. Xenophrenic ( talk) 21:41, 1 February 2017 (UTC))
I recently added 3 references to support the origin of the Church in the first century, but only one made it. The other two were removed because they were unreliable. Is it because one is primary source? To the best of my knowledge, primary sources can be used to supplement secondary sources. Are the references not explicit enough? The idea that the Church existed in the first century is found in the source material. Those references are:
1. http://historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistoriesResponsive.asp?historyid=ac65#c2840 [A secondary source]
2. https://www.ewtn.com/library/CHISTORY/HUGHHIST.TXT [A primary source]
1. states that: The pope is the bishop of Rome. The name derives from a Greek word pappas, meaning father, and Rome's bishop is seen as the father figure of the early church because of the link with St Peter. Jesus is believed to have appointed Peter as the rock on which the church will be built; and Peter is believed to have been martyred in Rome. As the capital of the empire, Rome is also a natural centre for the growing church. Unlike any other Christian see, Rome can put at least a name to every bishop in an unbroken line back to the 1st century of the Christian era and to St Peter himself as the first pope. The papacy, though not recognized as such until later centuries, has impressive credentials.
2. states: St. Ignatius, born about the year 60, in all probability a disciple of St. John, was the third Bishop of Antioch... St. Ignatius, looking beyond the local churches to the one great Church which in their unity they compose, has found for that unity the name which henceforth it will for ever retain -- the Catholic Church... St. Ignatius was thrown to the beasts in a Roman circus somewhere about the year 107. In the three quarters of a century which are all that separate his martyrdom from Our Lord's Ascension, the ecclesia is visibly and evidently the Catholic Church. It is spreading throughout the Roman world. It is increasingly a gentile thing; it is a federation of communities united in belief, united in their mode of government, united in their acceptance of the belief as a thing regulated by authority, united, too, in their worship. It has received its historic name-the Catholic Church -- and the rule of the Church at Rome is already foreshadowed in writing and in action, the continuation in time of the chieftainship conferred by Christ on Peter. Tachyon1010101010 ( talk) 06:52, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
Why is the History section exceptionally placed in the bottom in this article, contrary to typical arrangement? Chicbyaccident ( talk) 14:58, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
I've trimmed the name section. Some of those paragraphs were tangentially related (the Donation of Constantine one in particular), or were quite rambling. TonyBallioni ( talk) 14:39, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
That's indeed some bold moves. No, this isn't Wiktionary, but the Name section has been carefully carved out over the years. Extended information about its name here is relevant. The diminish it so violently would merit some more discussion. Where did disappeared parts of text of the section get moved to, to start with? Chicbyaccident ( talk) 17:46, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure which of my edits is particularly controversial? I've made five, but most of them were small tweaks or rearrangements. TSP ( talk) 10:11, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
My only two concerns left are that after the citation needed template was placed after the Pius XII claim, while it appears to be true, it also appears to be WP:OR as I can't find any secondary sourcing on it. The claim that Catholic Church is the most common used in Church documents seems to be cited to the CCC table of contents, and while also appearing to be true, I can't find secondary sourcing on. TonyBallioni ( talk) 15:48, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
the most used name for the Church in official documents is the Catholic Church. Using the entirety of the Catechism as a citation for that claim is bad sourcing. I also tend to lean that this is synthesis, but also original research of primary source documents. I'm willing to believe that the last papal document was HG in 1950, but I can't find that claim in secondary sources outside of the document. It poses a verifiability problem for Wikipedia, because in order to disprove the claim, you'd have to go through all the papal documents issued from 1950s both in English and non-English sources. TonyBallioni ( talk) 16:49, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
@ TonyBallioni: Regarding the inclusion of the "Electoral College" in the infobox, I am concern that the infobox is already too clutter and complicated. The infobox should contain only readily understandable quick information, and it is already weighed down with complex terms such as "Churches sui iuris", and I'd like to avoid adding more ambiguous parameters. With regard to the particulars here, the "Electoral College" wikilink only mentions one line in the article about the Catholic Church. The entry refers to "College of Cardinals", who do meet regularly, but only elect a pope once in a generation. The number following is awkwardly placed. In most entries, it is the number of entries (number of dioceses, number of priests, etc. Here, "225" looks like the number of colleges of cardinals, rather than the number of cardinals. An entry for Cardinals might be a better fit, but again, I hoping to trim. There have been a lot of contentious discussion over this template to get it to this point, and I wish to avoid that contention here. -- Zfish118⋉ talk 03:56, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
I am also not sure about how I feel having Churches sui iuris in the infobox now that I think about it. In my mind, the infobox should contain information that most people would readily understand simply by looking, and I don't think this is the case here. It also make the sui juris Churches seem like administrative subdivisions in my mind, which isn't entirely accurate. TonyBallioni ( talk) 01:30, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
I oppose the removal. The information is of importance for its global organisation and identity. Moreover, with the ongoing events in the Middle East, this should not be considered of less importance than before. Chicbyaccident ( talk) 07:53, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
There are a couple of points in the "Particular churches sui iuris" section that I am not comfortable with. For instance, the language "communion [of 24 churches]" is not used in the cited source, and I have not seen it described as a "communion" in other sources I have reviewed. The Eastern churches are certainly in communion [adjective] with the Holy See, but the Catholic Church is not described as a communion [noun] in the sources I've seen. I also think the section also needs to elaborate on the relationship between Eastern Catholic churches and the Latin church authorities, as it has historically been complicated, and the current status really only formally came about in 1990 with the publishing of the CCEO. As I've discussed in the infobox talkpage section, care needs to be taken to portray these churches as not mere administrative divisions, but fundamentally independent approaches to Christianity that have managed to coexist in communion with the majority Latin/western tradition. – Zfish118⋉ talk 10:58, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
The Catholic Church consists of 24 autonomous particular Churches [...] that are in full communion with the Holy See? I'll look further at the rest of the section later. TonyBallioni ( talk) 14:10, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
"and from the Middle Ages until the Modern Age acted as the principal force of unity in the Western world", that seriously needs needs a citation and I am not sure one can be found considering the background of the protestant reformation. 2602:304:788B:DF50:8CDD:5461:389A:631B ( talk) 23:19, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
Done. -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 20:24, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
Disagree! Please review the first sentence and its source in the Medieval and Renaissance periods section. Chicbyaccident ( talk) 20:26, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
While the article talks about the doctrines and devotions regarding the Virgin Mary, should it also have a subsection explaining the Catholic beliefs and practices regarding saints? (i.e. Beatification, Canonization, Litany of the Saints, Veneration, Intercession of saints, Patron saint, etc.) -- Willthacheerleader18 ( talk) 00:02, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved. There is consensus that these moves should go ahead, and I don't think it's paramount that we defer it until we can move everything related to this. Looking at Category:History_of_Roman_Catholicism_by_country, there's already a lot of inconsistency. — Amakuru ( talk) 11:04, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
– Per
WP:Consistency in accordance with
Catholic Church,
Category:Catholic Church,
Talk:Catholic Church,
Talk:Catholic Church in Armenia,
History of the Catholic Church,
History of the Catholic Church in Spain,
History of the Catholic Church in Brazil,
History of the Catholic Church in Japan, etc. (Note: Don't know how to avoid the first incorrect line of proposal which inappropriate addresses this very article)
Chicbyaccident (
talk)
21:21, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
Marcocapelle ( talk · contribs), TonyBallioni ( talk · contribs), Grabado ( talk · contribs), Randy Kryn ( talk · contribs), Jzsj ( talk · contribs), Jkadavoor ( talk · contribs): The above proposals are all related to the general Catholic Church perspective (thus not related to the Latin/Roman rite/Roman Catholic ongoing issue in sections further above). I made sure that the same perspective (avoiding the Latin/Roman rite/Roman Catholic issue) should apply also to my proposals at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2017_July_2. So I am rather surprised of the lack of equivalent support there. The disamibuguation issue of Latin/Roman rite can be sorted out in a later phase. Chicbyaccident ( talk) 12:54, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
Regarding by TSP ( talk · contribs). My remark is that Catholic Church (disambiguation) already contains the terminology sorting out help that the user seems to call for in the hatnote. I am therefore wondering for what reasons this should be doubled up, please? For the record, there are several others redirects to this article that isn't listed as "X and Y redirects here" - for obvious reasons since if applied would cause bit of a list really in the hatnote. Chicbyaccident ( talk) 10:26, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
On the Wikipedia:WikiProject Catholicism/Article alerts, currently there remains only two article name change proposals. Other than these, I believe there are no more "Roman Catholic" article titles on general topics throughout English Wikipedia (except names of certain dioceses in historically Catholic-minority regions). As a consequence of this state, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Catholic Church) has been created per WP:BOLD, where I have attempted to perceive the recurrent consensus in retroperspective of a quantity of past related discussions.
Following this, on a sidenote, I suggest that also the essay Wikipedia:Catholic or Roman Catholic? should be updated, including merge with hatnote-mentioned, relating essays of individual users.
All this may - and most likely will - of course be objected. Or even reversed, ultimately so I guess per Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Arbitration cases. Chicbyaccident ( talk) 20:31, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
References
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The very first sentence of this article is factually incorrect. It is a common misunderstanding is that the Catholic Church is also known as the Roman Catholic church. As Christianity spread throughout the world The essential elements of the Catholic faith were celebrated in the context and rituals of different cultures. These different cultural rituals evolved into over 20 liturgical Rites present in the Catholic Church today. The three main groups of Rites are the Roman, the Antiochian (Syria) and the Alexandrian (Egypt). It is important to clarify that though there are cultural differences in how liturgical rites are celebrated, all Catholics share the same faith. All Roman Catholics are Catholic but not all Catholics are Roman Catholics. Cmrosary ( talk) 01:13, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
For details, please see Talk:List of Christian_denominations#Proposal to let List of Christian denominations by number of members merge with this list. Chicbyaccident ( talk) 19:29, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
I'm here because of these two discussions in Wikimedia Commons [3] [4].
If, as stated in the first line of this article, the Catholic Church is also known as the Roman Catholic Church (that is, that the whole Roman Catholic Church includes both the Latin Church and Eastern Catholic Churches), then Category:Roman Catholic church buildings shouldn't be used for Catholic churches of the Latin Church, Category:Eastern Catholic church buildings for Catholic churches of Eastern Catholic Churches and Category:Catholic Church as a common container for both.
What do we do? -- Grabado ( talk) 11:08, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
Please note that Grabado opened this can of worms only because he made massive changes to the categorization tree concerning Roman Catholic churches over on Commons without the consensus to do so, and refuses to undo them, despite numerous editors telling him that he should. The only reason he's here is to bolster his position there, but he refuses to acknowledge that the question of what the categorization should be cannot take place until he undoes his disruptive non-consensual edits to the category hierarchy. Since this is essentially a Commons issue, and not an en.Wiki one, I suggest that this discussion be shut down, as it was opened under false pretenses. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 00:51, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
Thanks TSP and Chicbyaccident for the clarification. Grabado opened this discussion because another user asked him to do so. I see no bad intentions in it. My understanding is also inline with the current status of this articles. George Alencherry and Baselios Cleemis, who are heads of two Eastern Churches are Cardinals which confirms they are part of Roman Catholic Church. J e e 04:12, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
"Roman Catholic" AND "Greek Catholicwill show you some cases where it is used as a disambiguator from Eastern/Greek. To pick another random example from the Eastern Catholic Churches
"Roman Catholic" AND "Syro-Malabar"returns results that are favourable to the view that Roman is a synonym for the larger category, but also returns results that can be used to argue the opposite. In terms of categories the question should be if we know what we are talking about and if we can easily find it. I think we do here and don't see this as a big enough deal to need to have larger community discussion about a rename when nothing is broken. TonyBallioni ( talk) 06:30, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
Ghouston, we have it in the ha tnote, which links to Roman Catholic Church (disambiguation), and that page includes Latin Church. TonyBallioni ( talk) 05:16, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
Also see this section on the term Roman Catholic and page xxviii of this book on the Catholic Church in the Soviet Union to see an example of how the term can be used as a disambiguator in books published by academic presses. As Zfish118 points out above, the status quo is imperfect. It is defensible based on the sourcing, however, and it does serve a purpose in helping users find more specific sets of articles they want. TonyBallioni ( talk) 06:11, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
A couple comments:
In conclusion, it is thus entirely ambiguous as to what exactly "Roman Catholic" means, as there is no official answer, and the historical and canonical conditions under which the term developed have changed. It will be a matter of future academic and popular use as to which portions of are most properly called "Roman Catholic". We must simply use the best contemporary sources to provide commentary as usage evolves. – Zfish118⋉ talk 18:53, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
None would suggest adding "Roman" to the names of the very individual Eastern Catholic sui iuris churches. However, as these are just as part of the Catholic Church as the Latin Church, their members are just as Catholic (or Roman Catholic, in the same generic sense). Catholic Church is indeed sometimes referred to as the Roman Catholic Church, as are Catholics referred to as Roman Catholics. However, I have yet to see a credible reference to Roman rite (Latin Church) Catholics specifically - exclusively - as "Roman Catholic". Until, I would consider that at best an erratic innovation without any broader acclaim. The reason why you see the tree category indicate such taxonomy is simply because it has been neglected without the would-be consensus defined by the article realm but rather two synonyms. I would object to describe that state as a status quo representation of an established consensus. Chicbyaccident ( talk) 05:16, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I have yet to see serious references for such statements. Chicbyaccident ( talk) 11:37, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
|—(Roman) Catholic Church
|—|—(Roman) Catholic churches
|——|——Eastern Catholic churches
Thanks. See also a few more proposals here (with possibly more to add). Chicbyaccident ( talk) 21:13, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
On a slightly different issue, I would have more reservations about the use of "Catholic" as if it were an unambiguous term than about "Catholic Church". "Catholic" certainly is used, without any further disambiguation, by people outside the church body described in this article - consider for example the Society of Catholic Priests and Affirming Catholicism, among many others; as well as where the link Catholic takes you (it isn't here). "Roman Catholic" is reasonably unambiguous (barring debates about entire church vs Latin Rite); "Catholic Church" isn't, but at least has the authority of this being the primary article. "Catholic" is even less so, particularly in very general contexts like "Catholic Eucharistic theology". I'd say if "Roman" is to be taken out of these titles, "Church" should be put in; so "Roman Catholic Eucharistic theology" becoming "Eucharistic theology in the Catholic Church" is OK, I think; "Catholic Eucharistic theology", not so much.
(I do note that this is already used elsewhere, though - e.g. Catholic theology, though the actual bold text in that article is "theology of the Catholic Church", which I think would be a better title - when a Church of England report talks about "the Catholic theology underlying the Porvoo agreement", for example, they are not thinking of the subject of that article.) TSP ( talk) 08:51, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
I've finally got a list of all the categories that include "Roman Catholic" in their names. Let's start from the easy ones. It was already discussed to move all the categories like "Roman Catholic Church in someplace", but I've found that some of them remain unchanged: Category:Roman Catholic Church in Aruba, Category:Roman Catholic church in the Northern Territory, Category:Roman Catholic Church in New Brunswick, Category:Roman Catholic Church in Manitoba, Category:Roman Catholic Church in the Caribbean part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, Category:Roman Catholic church in Overseas France... and so on. All of them should be renamed, shouldn't they? -- Grabado ( talk) 07:22, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
Related categories have been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming . You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for discussion page. |
Category:Roman Catholic universities and colleges by country has been renamed as Category:Catholic universities and colleges by country after a CFR started by Chicbyaccident. All subcategories should be also renamed, not only because of consistency, but also because I've found that pages categorised under those categories refer not only to the Latin Church but the whole Catholic Church.
As you can see in Category:Roman Catholic universities and colleges in India, institutions such as Jyothi Engineering College, Cheruthuruthy, Thrissur, St. Ephrem Ecumenical Research Institute, St John's College, Anchal, or St. Joseph's College, Moolamattom are supported by the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church or the Syro-Malaknkara Catholic Church. -- Grabado ( talk) 17:10, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
Related categories have been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming . You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for discussion page. |
Related categories have been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming . You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for discussion page. |
Related categories have been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming . You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for discussion page. |
There is currently an RfC at Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(Catholic_Church)#RfC:_should_this_page_be_made_a_naming_convention asking if the proposed naming convention for the Catholic Church should be made an official naming convention. All are welcomed to comment. TonyBallioni ( talk) 21:34, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
Chicbyaccident made a helpful note on the name section that "undo" weight was given to certain viewpoints in the name section. That is certainly true. However, the bigger problem is that the name section uses few, if any, secondary or tertiary sources to discuss changing trends in the terminology. This is equally true for both "Catholic" and "Roman Catholic", which rely on original research and synthesis to draw conclusions about naming trends solely by examining original primary source documents. Only examples of use are provided, and no scholarly sources are used to provide commentary on those examples; one would have to personally review all of the sources to confirm the current commentary. Rather than stack a series of warning templates, which is sloppy, I placed only the "primary source" template, which if addressed, would cover any "undo weight" concerns. – Zfish118⋉ talk 12:53, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
There is a discussion taking place at Talk:Catholic–Lutheran dialogue#Requested move 22 October 2017 that editors of this article might be interested in. All are invited to participate. – Zfish118⋉ talk 13:32, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Name of the Catholic Church which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 20:46, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
The second to last sentence of the lead paragraph should say, "the majority of Catholics reside in the southern hemisphere due to the secularisation of Europe." - Thomas Calvin
I clicked on "Roman Catholic faith" in a different article and got redirected to this article. At the top, it said "Redirected from Catholicism". Vorbee ( talk) 16:56, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
The last paragraph of the lead section should be removed. No religion is described in terms of "criticisms" that have been made of it. To do so is to border on the absurd and patently fails WP:NOPV and WP:RECENTISM. The subject of the article is a two thousand year old institution and someone thought it was a good idea for several specific criticisms from localized communities in the world from the late 20th century to be included in the lead section? It's not even referenced. Unless there is an objection, I will remove it in due time. Ergo Sum 01:20, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Lead paragraphs in Wikipedia are supposed to include all outstanding controversies. Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section: "The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies."
In the case of an organization with a long criminal history such as the Catholic Church, hiding the controversies for which it is known for would be whitewashing. "To whitewash is a metaphor meaning "to gloss over or cover up vices, crimes or scandals or to exonerate by means of a perfunctory investigation or through biased presentation of data".
Chicbyaccident, while I would personally like to see a better historical coverage in this article, the lead can't currently cover either religious persecution (initiated by Catholics, or targeting Catholics), nor Anti-Catholicism. The lead is supposed to summarize the body of the article, and (to my surprise) this entire article does not cover either topic and does not even link to the relevant articles. How did this get rated a GA article with such outstanding omissions? Dimadick ( talk) 06:15, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
The final sentence of the lead paragraph should be changed to read "the Catholic Church has been criticised for its doctrines on marriage, sexual conduct, contraceptives, abortion and the ordination of women to the priesthood, as well as its handling of sexual abuse cases involving members of the clergy. The Church has since reformed how it handles clerical sexual abuse cases during the papacy of Pope Benedict XVI and continues to reform under Pope Francis." Or some such change to that effect needs to be made. The sentence needs to be made more specific, and there should be some mention that the Church has addressed these issues. ThomasCalvin ( talk) 23:38, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
The official name of this organization, as indicated by the Apostles creed and the nicean creed is the "Catholic Church". Editor2343 ( talk) 10:13, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
Greetings, I added the Lead notice because it exceeds the 4 paragraph limit per MOS. Regards, — JoeHebda • ( talk) 00:39, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
The word Tithe doesn't appear in this article. Is that okay? Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 23:25, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
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To simplify the lead for future maintenance, following guidance at WP:LEADCITE, I have trimmed out a few redundant citations for non-controversial information. Most of these citation are repeated in the body of the article, or refer the same sections of the Catechism that are cited in body.
(Pope is Catholic)
(Papal claim of succession)
(Church claim of infallibility)
(Eucharist - Consolidating to one end of paragraph citation)
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cite web}}
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help)(Mary)
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help)According to paragraph 44: "...we [Pope Pius XII] pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory."
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help) (ref name="Munificentissimus Deus") –
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talk
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Just like Thomas Aquinas who is a part of a series of Christianity. 124.106.132.207 ( talk) 22:41, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
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change civilisation to civilization. Okhons ( talk) 15:04, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
I've removed the following unsourced claims.
1) Unlike other charities, however, the Catholic Church does not reveal its total wealth for unknown reasons.
[10]
2) A study in 2018 found the Catholic Church's net worth to be worth over US$30bn in Australia alone. [1] [2] [11]
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The Catholic Church / Holy See is an absolute monarchy - see "government type" in CIA's factbook ( CIA link). User:Dave Dial has deleted the relevant info. I have reverted it. -- CarlPhilippTrump.me ( talk) 13:32, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
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"civilisations" in first paragraph must be changed to "civilizations" Aramirezruiz ( talk) 04:00, 10 April 2018 (UTC)Aramirezruiz
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Having three languages at the top of the Infobox is a bit much, and I would request that all but the English and Latin names be removed. Latin, while not strictly necessary, is the official legal language of the Church, while Greek is a language used by a small minority, and Italian has no status other than as an approved vernacular for the liturgy. – Zfish118⋉ talk 03:24, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
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The following statement should be corrected to conform to the policy on articles having a neutral point of view: "In the account of the Confession of Peter found in the Gospel of Matthew, Christ designates Peter as the "rock" upon which Christ's church will be built"
It is merely the interpretation of the Roman Catholic church that this is the meaning of this passage. Therefore, the text should be edited to reflect this fact. HDavi ( talk) 15:59, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
Suggestion: "According to the Catholic interpretation of the account of the Confession of Peter found in the Gospel of Matthew, Christ designates Peter as the "rock" upon which Christ's church will be built" — Preceding unsigned comment added by HDavi ( talk • contribs) 16:02, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
Though in the past some authorities considered that the title, meaning “rock,” refers to Jesus himself or to Peter’s faith, the consensus of the great majority of scholars today is that the most obvious and traditional understanding should be construed—namely, that the title refers to the person of Peter. In John the title was granted at what may have been the first meeting between Jesus and Simon (1:42). Thus, when the name was given is open to question, but that the name was given by Jesus to Simon seems fairly certain. Matthew goes on to state that upon this rock—that is, upon Peter—the church will be built.
What is the correct capitalization when referring to "the church" / "the Church" as a shorthand for "the Roman Catholic Church"? The article should be internally consistent whatever the decision is. MaxBrowne ( talk) 01:40, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
Incorrect | (generic): | The University offers programs in arts and sciences. |
Correct | (generic): | The university offers programs in arts and sciences. |
Correct | (title): | The University of Delhi offers programs in arts and sciences. |
Anyone know? Wqwt ( talk) 06:14, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
I asked before and never got a response, but wanted some feedback before deciding.. should we make a subsection, perhaps under doctrines, about saints? The article barely mentions the Church's teachings on saints (particularly patronage, veneration, and devotion). Saintly intercession is a huge part of Catholic practice that isn't as prevalent in other forms of Christianity (with the exception of Orthodoxy and, in some regards, Anglicanism). Thoughts? -- Willthacheerleader18 ( talk) 23:09, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
I'm sorry this is not at all official and I don't have time to find proof, but: the Church as an institution should definitely be capitalized, along with the Body and Blood of Christ Sorry for the extra work if anyone has to spend the time to remove this because it is not correctly "filed" Thanks if you actually put the work in to correct this and don't delete it Sessssssss ( talk) 02:53, 29 May 2018 (UTC)Sessssssss 5/28/18
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You could add on the introduction page just after where it explains difficulties within the 20th century that the church still continues to remains to grow and hold popularity amount members. https://www.worldreligionnews.com/religion-news/is-the-catholic-church-experiencing-exponential-growth-or-declining https://www.huffingtonpost.com/stan-chu-ilo/pope-francis-and-the-remaking-of-modern-catholicism_b_6852468.html?guccounter=1 86.178.136.47 ( talk) 13:10, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
Note: The below requested edit would be inaccurate because Catholic church has lost many members including my family, due to pressing political & secular positions it has taken more recently while stating they embrace all, but practice exclusion-such as now forbidding communion to any visitors for 1)catholic; 2) not confessioned & 3) promoting conservative political alignments over liberated concepts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.183.62.80 ( talk) 20:27, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
in this edit been removed a section about the universities assertion, well the article do not cited that Oxford and Cambridge are catholic universities, on the source there are two catholic universities affiliation among them are University of Notre Dame (rank 93) and KU Leuven (rank 77). even if in other list ranks such as Times Higher Education World University Rankings QS World University Rankings list 2016, KU Leuven and Boston College (an catholic university) rank between 61-70 while Georgetown University was ranked in 104, in QS World University Rankings in 2017 three catholic universities (include KU Leuven 79 and Pontificia Universidad Católica de Chile 143 and Université cathoTSP Alerts (0) Notices (0) TalkSandboxPreferencesBetaWatchlistContlique de Louvain) were ranked between 101-150. So the section was giving true information, why it's been deleted?.
Also it's hard to fin an source for the assertion: " It runs and sponsors thousands of primary and secondary schools, colleges and universities throughout the world." Here is an source that Catholicc Church operates the world's largest non-governmental school system. [1] and that's has [www.onlinedigeditions.com/publication/index.php?i=365491&m=&l=&p=1&pre=&ver=html5#"{" 43,800 secondary schools, and 95,200 primary schools, the source is from the church itself]. also according to the census of the Vatican's Congregation for Catholic Education, the total number of Catholic universities and higher education institutions around the world is 1,358. In the U.S.A alone the church run 6,685 total Catholic (elementary and high) schools and 262 colleges and universities educating more than 940,000 students. -- 213.57.242.20 ( talk) 14:54, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Acording to QS World University Rankings, there were three Catholic universities ( KU Leuven and Pontificia Universidad Católica de Chile and Université catholique de Louvain) among the top 150 universities of the world. [2]
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In the introduction, we are carrying a sentence which is basically arguing in favour of the social views of bourgeois liberals in Western Europe and North America, using weasel words. It is essentially using the introduction of this article to lobby in a one sided fashion for homosexuality and the Anglo-liberal vision for feminism.
Now, similarly, on the articles for other religions; Orthodox Judaism, Islam and the Orthodox Church, all of these major religions are also opposed to the bourgeois liberal view of sexuality and they also do not permit women to the ranks of their clergy. Is there any particular reason why we are singling out the Catholic Church, other than the fact that... lets call a spade-a-spade, bourgeois liberals of Germanic provenance, particularly those of an Anglo-Saxon hue, have a special little hereditary hard on when it comes to the Catholic Church?
I think we need to come up with a more balanced summary for the late 20th century onward period. Claíomh Solais ( talk) 14:30, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
I've reverted Claíomh Solais's recent unilateral changes to the lead section because (1) they lack consensus and are at odds with the discussion above, (2) introduce poorly written and vague language, and (3) fail to reflect the body of the article. Claíomh Solais, can you please stay on topic? Your antipathy to "bourgeois liberals" and "Anglo-liberal vision for feminism" (whatever that even means) is utterly irrelevant here. Neutrality talk 06:14, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
I am here for two reasons. Firstly, I find the first sentence unclear, and am told I must discuss before changing it. Secondly, I am also told to check the archives. That's pointless. You try, and see how many hits you get for the words "member" or "members"! So, sorry if this has been discussed before.
The first sentence says the church "is the largest Christian church, with approximately 1.3 billion members worldwide". "The word "members" is not defined, and could mean anything. My Google translation of the source actually says that 1.3 billion is "the number of baptized Catholics in the world". That's obviously not the same as members. Why don't we use precisely that wording? Surely our policies say we should. HiLo48 ( talk) 06:39, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
This article says that Luther sent his ninety-five theses to several bishops - but did he not nail them to the church door at Wittenberg? I have heard it said that he put them up on wax. Vorbee ( talk) 06:59, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
"History and development of Western civilisation" Correct spell for civilization, instead of what it is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnnyHGT ( talk • contribs) 20:06, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
The lead makes mention of the important East-West schism, but no mention of Protestantism emerging from the Catholic Church, although this is a major event in the Church's history, which could be argued to be the most significant and consequential, with far reaching consequences (major wars, loss of papal influence, etc). I know I could WP:JUSTDOIT but given that this is a highly visible article, I'd rather put the notion here first. — Define Real ( talk) 20:05, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
The current paragraph reads:
The Catholic Church shared communion with the Eastern Orthodox Church until the East–West Schism in 1054, disputing particularly the authority of the Pope, as well as with the Oriental Orthodox churches prior to the Chalcedonian schism in 451 over differences in Christology. The Reformation of the 16th century resulted in Protestantism breaking away.
I recently changed "Protestantism" to "Protestant Churches", in order to match the convention used in the rest of the paragraph: "Eastern Orthodox Church" and "Oriental Orthodox churches". Could you kindly explain why this was reverted? Thanks, Anupam Talk 19:19, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
change the short description from 'Christian church led by the Bishop of Rome' to 'Christian church led by the Roman Pontiff'
while the Pope is the Bishop of Rome, he is the highest authority in the Catholic Church, and therefore should be given a title above all other bishops. ChristusImperat, CSSML ( talk) 23:42, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
How is this possible? Surely the child sexual abuse is a major aspect that must be covered? Seraphim System ( talk) 23:36, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
The claim that the Catholic Church is the "oldest continuously functioning international institution" has a reliable source, but it still incorrect, given the Samaritan High Priest. I understand the term "international" as a qualifier might seem to disqualify the Samaritan High Priest, but since Samaritans live in both Israel and the West Bank, that qualifies the Samaritan High Priesthood as an international institution.
So, how to fix the claim? Not sure, anyone want to try?-- Epiphyllumlover ( talk) 00:08, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
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Talk:Catholicism redirects here, just as as Catholicism redirects to Catholic Church. So I write here about the Catholicism redirect page. I looked up its history. Does it look correct or is it "cut" somehow? If so, would it be possible to fix so that its full history is accessible? Perhaps here is some clue to what went wrong? Hopefully some administrator could give a helping hand or at least advice here. PPEMES ( talk) 00:24, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
Catholic theology is based on the Nicene Creed. The Catholic Church teaches that it is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church founded by Jesus Christ,[7][8][note 1] that its bishops are the successors of Christ's apostles, and that the pope is the successor to Saint Peter to whom primacy was conferred by Jesus Christ.[11] It maintains that it practises the original Christian faith, reserving infallibility, passed down by sacred tradition.[12] The Latin Church, the twenty-three Eastern Catholic Churches, and institutes such as mendicant orders and enclosed monastic orders reflect a variety of theological and spiritual emphases in the church.[13][14]
This definition is interesting as it doesn't seem to be in conflict, philosophically with a pagan belief system. 108.200.234.93 ( talk) 08:09, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
Latin Church is the particular church of Latin rite. However to say other Rites such as Alexandrian, Byzantine, East Syriac, and West Syriac to be Roman is not proper word use. Roman Catholic is most appropriate when referencing Latin Church not Catholic Church. This article is an explanation that may clear confusion [1]On more information on the Latin particular church look at this article [2]. Also, if there is anymore confusion on nomenclature, read this article [3] I hope for a friendly exchange. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Manabimasu ( talk • contribs) 03:58, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
@ Haldraper and Hyperbolick: Yes, I saw, so can Roman Catholic refer to Roman_Catholic_Church_(disambiguation).
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Redirects here are under attack by user:Manabimasu. See his recent edits. Please, help. Hyperbolick ( talk) 01:50, 26 April 2019 (UTC) I want to confirm. That I did Change the redirects to the disambiguation page. I would like to know what rules I broke besides being reckless. I only reverted two or three times. I would like a discussion. I want to be civil. So for every page with “Roman” I changed to Roman Catholic disambiguation. I won’t change it back because I have bias. I want to know the opinions of editors. Also, to hyperbolick, Thanks for informing of my reckless edits. I need attention towards the discussion. Manabimasu ( talk) 01:57, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
Yes, Can you point out my error? Please quote the violation. I would welcome the opportunity to learn. Also, I would like to learn how to achieve a consensus. To add in Edit_requests#Planning_a_request there is a statement “Uncontroversial changes don't require sourcing, such as correcting typographical errors or disambiguating links. ” I thought I could redirect to a disambiguation page. Manabimasu ( talk) 02:09, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
Ok Manabimasu ( talk) 02:31, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
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PLZ CHANGE ORGANISATION TO ORGANIZATION 67.1.250.231 ( talk) 22:38, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
There are several issues with the final paragraph of the " Catholic Church#Name" section:
The name "Catholic Church" for the whole church is used in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1990), and the Code of Canon Law (1983). It was also used in the documents of the Second Vatican Council (1962–1965), the First Vatican Council (1869–1870), [1] the Council of Trent (1545–1563), [2] and numerous other official documents. [3] [4] [5] original research?
The final paragraph references exclusively primary sources, with no sources providing scholarly commentary on the significant of the use of "Catholic Church". More commentary is needed from reliable sources to describe why "(Holy) Roman Church" is used at least 25 times in the documents of Trent, while "Catholic Church" is used 34 times. Or why Vatican I uses "Roman Church" 5 times compared to "Catholic Church" 11 times. The use of primary sources can only be used to assert the trivial fact that the words "Catholic Church" were used in various documents of the three councils and other Papal bulls. Additional sources would be required to assert any significance of this usage in the primary sources.
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The title is self-explanatory. What are editors’ thoughts on this? Manabimasu ( talk) 02:32, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
This may be contentious, but the pope is the visible head of the Catholic Church while Jesus is the invisible head. This distinction should be made. I refer to CCC 739,CCC 747 [1],CCC 885 [2],CCC 792 [3], CCC 1548 [4], CCC 765 [5]. Call out these references if there is cherry picking which there is. The change is the Visible Head is the pope while the Invisible head is Jesus. Thoughts? Manabimasu ( talk) 21:03, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
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A reminder to editors that this article is written in British English, so the more common British spellings and punctuation styles are meant to be used throughout. The exceptions are with direct quotations and proper names. Thanks. Yahboo ( talk) 01:48, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
Can someone please fix the problem with the references appearing at the bottom of the talk page (under this message at present). This is very confusing. I know there is a way to fix this but can't remember what it is. Thanks. Yahboo ( talk) 01:52, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
The article below says 1.4 billion now. Is the number in the article out of date? http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Worldwide-number-of-Catholics-grows-to-1.4-billion--44154.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.249.206.28 ( talk) 04:58, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
Here are the latest figures - https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/bollettino/pubblico/2019/03/06/190306b.html but this is a primary source and Wikipedia may think Catholic Church is lying about the numbers. So there needs to be an independent research group. User:PPEMES Asia news is referring to the Annuarium Statisticum Ecclesiae but the figures are from 2016 not from 2017. Thoughts? Manabimasu ( talk) 12:42, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
Should the word "Catholicism" be introduced/mentioned somewhere in the lead section (other than in the hatnote), even in bold or italic text, and if so where and how? PPEMES ( talk) 22:22, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
The website in the infobox seems unnecessary. The website points to the Holy See website and although I could understand how that could be the Catholic Church website. It is not official. Thoughts? Manabimasu ( talk) 11:37, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
The {{ Catholic Church sexual abuse cases}} template had been placed at the bottom of the visible template stack, then removed from the page by an editor asking if it was WP:RECENTISM. Recentism discusses using the ten-year test ( WP:10YT), i.e. would someone ten years from now be surprised at the inclusion. The long-term historical nature of events discussed on the template seem to negate the recentism objection. Randy Kryn ( talk) 11:47, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
if not for the navigation template, an editor would be inclined to link many of these articles in the See also sections of the articles.In the present case, I doubt that an editor would be inclined to link the several hundreds of links in these templates in the See also section of the Catholic Church article. Especially, I doubt that all the individual articles in the sex abuse cases template would be worth linking in the See also section of the Catholic Church article. Place Clichy ( talk) 12:10, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
I hadn't realised that the pile of stacked templates at the bottom of the page was so recent - changed 10 days ago by Randy Kryn. I've undone this - I don't think there is any sign that this change has consensus: PPEMES, Place Clichy and I are objecting, no-one but Randy seems to be supporting it. More generally, I still don't believe that there is any Wikipedia policy supporting any such concept as "template respect", which was one of the reasons given when adding it. TSP ( talk) 14:01, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
"Martin Luther, originally an Augustinian friar, initiated the Protestant Reformation against the Catholic Church in 1517." - this is totally untrue. Martin Luther, and many of the Protestant Reformers, never intended the Reformation to be a movement "against" the Catholic Church. Many of them wanted an internal reform, including Luther. This should be corrected to a more neutral sentence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.47.165.9 ( talk) 18:13, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
I was scanning the page and I came across this- "In the first thousand years of Catholic history, different varieties of Christianity developed in the Western and Eastern Christian areas of Europe." I find this a bit confusing. Eastern Christianity is not limited to Europe. In fact, it was most noted in Asia minor and in other places besides Europe. Is Catholic interchangeable with Christianity? Of course, I want let my bias get in the way of WP:Neutraility. I suggest the following for a "Christianity"-word-centered lede: "In the first thousand years of Christian history, different varieties of Christianity developed throughout the Roman-known World as the Western and Eastern rites." I also suggest the following for a "Catholicism"-word-centered lede: "In the first thousand years of Catholic history, different varieties of Catholic rites developed as Western and Eastern." Note- "Rite" and "rite" have slight changes. I am open to suggestions as well. Thoughts? Manabimasu ( talk) 05:02, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
Related to article Catholic Church. Please see: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Catholicism#Interrelated_top_categories_and_talks. PPEMES ( talk) 13:11, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
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The Catholic Church, a communion of 23 Churches in Communion with the Bishop of Rome, Acook2016 ( talk) 16:24, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
The first sentence of the present article states that the Catholic Church is "also known as the Roman Catholic Church."
This should be clarified to make clear that Latin/Roman is only ONE of the TWO DOZEN Rites of the Catholic Church, ALL of which are in union with Rome and equal members of the Catholic (Universal) Church
The Google search gives:
There are 24 such autonomous Catholic churches: One Latin Church (i.e., Western) and 23 Eastern Catholic Churches", a distinction by now more historical than geographical. Although each of them has its own specific heritage, they are all in full communion with the Pope in Rome. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:741:8000:24EC:1544:F3C9:F277:4E78 ( talk) 22:33, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
I believe we do not need to come up with every single extant liturgical language to put in the infobox, which is meant as a quick-glance summary of simple data, not an exhaustive list of every possible trivia. The liturgical languages of the Eastern Churches are adequately covered as vernacular languages (because ECs strive to worship in the vernacular wherever possible). (Also, I have no idea that any EC Church makes substantial use of Koine Greek in its liturgy. We would need sources to back that up.) But I feel it is better not to attempt to list them all there in the infobox, please. Elizium23 ( talk) 22:02, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
The second paragraph of the article begins "The Christian beliefs of Catholicism are based on the Nicene Creed." That statement is backwards; the Nicene Creed is obviously based on the Christian beliefs of Catholicism, not the other way around.
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph to read "The Nicene Creed is based on the Christian beliefs of Catholicism."
I think the Nazi history is problematic. It was removed in November for good reason (NPOV): it had only been added on November 2, by @ SMendel: who seems rather single-minded about Nazis and the Catholic Church. The "darker side" editorializing is worthy of tabloids which are cited. The citations are linked to book reviews and not the books. I do not know if all this is WP:DUE in the general article on the Catholic Church, rather than History of the Catholic Church. Elizium23 ( talk) 14:07, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
the Infobox Photo does not represent the entire facade of St. Peter's Basilica (or at least not in a good way), i propose one of the following images to replace this one.
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File:Basilica Sancti Petri blue hour.jpg or
File:Basilica Sancti Petri blue hourl - Retouch.jpg
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File:0 Basilique Saint-Pierre - Rome (2).JPG or
File:0 Basilique Saint-Pierre - Rome.JPG
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The Western Rite of the Catholic Church is often referred to as the "Roman Catholic Church". Yet, there is more than one rite of Catholicism. The Roman rite is the largest, but there is also Byzantine Catholicism, Chaldean Catholicism, etc. None of these are Roman Catholic, but they are still Catholic. The Catholic Church is not, as the lead says, "also known as the Roman Catholic Church". The latter is instead a part of the former. Thus, if this article is to refer to the global Church, shouldn't we remove or revise the part in the lead that specifically links the whole Church to one particular part of it? Display name 99 ( talk) 15:31, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
Endorsement by the church itself would be a primary source and unsuitable for use. What we need is third-party sources on the topic. Per Wikipedia:Identifying and using independent sources: "Any publication put out by an organization is clearly not independent of any topic that organization has an interest in promoting." Dimadick ( talk) 14:51, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
There is only the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church has many rites. The one that is most recognized is the Latin Rite. This issue is found in no other language other than English and is an accident of the English Reformation.
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Catholic which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 15:47, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
I was trying to figure out why one of the many Wikipedia 'bot' accounts would do something weird, like mention a discussion that was 6 months old. I summarized what I found here at that bot's talk page. (I'm not going to blame you for a bot's confusion, hopefully something they can fix).
But I did make me wonder at the original change to the redirect at Catholic, where you changed the redirect from Catholicism to Catholic Church. Something to consider always when thinking about a word or a term here is 'who' is asking a question by searching for the word/term. I'm thinking of three different ways that word could be used:
I believe if you consider how the term is commonly used by the public, relative to the English-speaking world, it would be something like the first two, describing either a person or some text being read. Even when saying "Is the Pope 'catholic'?" I would think the better reference would be 'Catholicism' rather than 'Catholic Church', because it gets to the root question better - "What is this about?"
I think you must be considering these terms according to the 'correctness' of the definitions, rather than how the terms are used by people. It is a subtle difference, from worrying about the correctness of word usage to instead worrying about how people will navigate Wikipedia, in spite of the fact they perhaps use words 'wrongly'. A term that can be used as a generalization ought to go to a generalized article.
I think elsewhere you even argue that "Catholic Church" should be applied to the more general category of "all catholic churches". But again, my worry is how a regular person will use Wikipedia. In most of the English-speaking world, "Catholic Church" is commonly used to mean the "Roman Catholic Church". It is how a word/term is commonly used, how people will encounter the word/term/phrase, that should most influence how articles are named. The academic person will persist in research, but my neighbor will only look at the first article that appears. That first article should be the best possible for an ordinary person.
Please consider how words are commonly used (outside of a dictionary :-) ) as an independent reason to name articles, quite apart from strict academically correct meanings. Shenme ( talk) 02:50, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
I opened a discussion on groupings in Christianity, of which there currently seems to lack a consensus on Wikipedia. The discussion might be of interest for followers of this talk page. Please see: Talk:Christianity#Denominations. Chicbyaccident ( talk) 12:16, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
What I meant is the Catholic Church contends it is unable to ordain women, not the critics contend their criticisms; it was my attempt to add balance to the article. Bettering the Wiki ( talk) 04:08, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
The Founded date is not in the Timeline of the Catholic Church, which you keep linking to. It is also totally un-verifably in that based on Catholic theology. To ask when it was founded asks "what is the Catholic Church"? No one (outside the Catholic Church) considers the Church of Rome to be founded in Jerusalem. tahc chat 18:59, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
Why do you want a "source" for a "fact" that you you yourself object to adding to the article? tahc chat 17:36, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
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Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2017_January_19#Category:Persecution_by_atheists
Deletion of Category:Persecution by atheists has been requested for review. Please share your comments at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2017_January_19#Category:Persecution_by_atheists, regardless of your opinion. The atheism article Talk page has also received a notification. Eliko007 ( talk) 22:30, 31 January 2017 (UTC) (Reworded for policy compliance. Xenophrenic ( talk) 21:41, 1 February 2017 (UTC))
I recently added 3 references to support the origin of the Church in the first century, but only one made it. The other two were removed because they were unreliable. Is it because one is primary source? To the best of my knowledge, primary sources can be used to supplement secondary sources. Are the references not explicit enough? The idea that the Church existed in the first century is found in the source material. Those references are:
1. http://historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistoriesResponsive.asp?historyid=ac65#c2840 [A secondary source]
2. https://www.ewtn.com/library/CHISTORY/HUGHHIST.TXT [A primary source]
1. states that: The pope is the bishop of Rome. The name derives from a Greek word pappas, meaning father, and Rome's bishop is seen as the father figure of the early church because of the link with St Peter. Jesus is believed to have appointed Peter as the rock on which the church will be built; and Peter is believed to have been martyred in Rome. As the capital of the empire, Rome is also a natural centre for the growing church. Unlike any other Christian see, Rome can put at least a name to every bishop in an unbroken line back to the 1st century of the Christian era and to St Peter himself as the first pope. The papacy, though not recognized as such until later centuries, has impressive credentials.
2. states: St. Ignatius, born about the year 60, in all probability a disciple of St. John, was the third Bishop of Antioch... St. Ignatius, looking beyond the local churches to the one great Church which in their unity they compose, has found for that unity the name which henceforth it will for ever retain -- the Catholic Church... St. Ignatius was thrown to the beasts in a Roman circus somewhere about the year 107. In the three quarters of a century which are all that separate his martyrdom from Our Lord's Ascension, the ecclesia is visibly and evidently the Catholic Church. It is spreading throughout the Roman world. It is increasingly a gentile thing; it is a federation of communities united in belief, united in their mode of government, united in their acceptance of the belief as a thing regulated by authority, united, too, in their worship. It has received its historic name-the Catholic Church -- and the rule of the Church at Rome is already foreshadowed in writing and in action, the continuation in time of the chieftainship conferred by Christ on Peter. Tachyon1010101010 ( talk) 06:52, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
Why is the History section exceptionally placed in the bottom in this article, contrary to typical arrangement? Chicbyaccident ( talk) 14:58, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
I've trimmed the name section. Some of those paragraphs were tangentially related (the Donation of Constantine one in particular), or were quite rambling. TonyBallioni ( talk) 14:39, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
That's indeed some bold moves. No, this isn't Wiktionary, but the Name section has been carefully carved out over the years. Extended information about its name here is relevant. The diminish it so violently would merit some more discussion. Where did disappeared parts of text of the section get moved to, to start with? Chicbyaccident ( talk) 17:46, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure which of my edits is particularly controversial? I've made five, but most of them were small tweaks or rearrangements. TSP ( talk) 10:11, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
My only two concerns left are that after the citation needed template was placed after the Pius XII claim, while it appears to be true, it also appears to be WP:OR as I can't find any secondary sourcing on it. The claim that Catholic Church is the most common used in Church documents seems to be cited to the CCC table of contents, and while also appearing to be true, I can't find secondary sourcing on. TonyBallioni ( talk) 15:48, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
the most used name for the Church in official documents is the Catholic Church. Using the entirety of the Catechism as a citation for that claim is bad sourcing. I also tend to lean that this is synthesis, but also original research of primary source documents. I'm willing to believe that the last papal document was HG in 1950, but I can't find that claim in secondary sources outside of the document. It poses a verifiability problem for Wikipedia, because in order to disprove the claim, you'd have to go through all the papal documents issued from 1950s both in English and non-English sources. TonyBallioni ( talk) 16:49, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
@ TonyBallioni: Regarding the inclusion of the "Electoral College" in the infobox, I am concern that the infobox is already too clutter and complicated. The infobox should contain only readily understandable quick information, and it is already weighed down with complex terms such as "Churches sui iuris", and I'd like to avoid adding more ambiguous parameters. With regard to the particulars here, the "Electoral College" wikilink only mentions one line in the article about the Catholic Church. The entry refers to "College of Cardinals", who do meet regularly, but only elect a pope once in a generation. The number following is awkwardly placed. In most entries, it is the number of entries (number of dioceses, number of priests, etc. Here, "225" looks like the number of colleges of cardinals, rather than the number of cardinals. An entry for Cardinals might be a better fit, but again, I hoping to trim. There have been a lot of contentious discussion over this template to get it to this point, and I wish to avoid that contention here. -- Zfish118⋉ talk 03:56, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
I am also not sure about how I feel having Churches sui iuris in the infobox now that I think about it. In my mind, the infobox should contain information that most people would readily understand simply by looking, and I don't think this is the case here. It also make the sui juris Churches seem like administrative subdivisions in my mind, which isn't entirely accurate. TonyBallioni ( talk) 01:30, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
I oppose the removal. The information is of importance for its global organisation and identity. Moreover, with the ongoing events in the Middle East, this should not be considered of less importance than before. Chicbyaccident ( talk) 07:53, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
There are a couple of points in the "Particular churches sui iuris" section that I am not comfortable with. For instance, the language "communion [of 24 churches]" is not used in the cited source, and I have not seen it described as a "communion" in other sources I have reviewed. The Eastern churches are certainly in communion [adjective] with the Holy See, but the Catholic Church is not described as a communion [noun] in the sources I've seen. I also think the section also needs to elaborate on the relationship between Eastern Catholic churches and the Latin church authorities, as it has historically been complicated, and the current status really only formally came about in 1990 with the publishing of the CCEO. As I've discussed in the infobox talkpage section, care needs to be taken to portray these churches as not mere administrative divisions, but fundamentally independent approaches to Christianity that have managed to coexist in communion with the majority Latin/western tradition. – Zfish118⋉ talk 10:58, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
The Catholic Church consists of 24 autonomous particular Churches [...] that are in full communion with the Holy See? I'll look further at the rest of the section later. TonyBallioni ( talk) 14:10, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
"and from the Middle Ages until the Modern Age acted as the principal force of unity in the Western world", that seriously needs needs a citation and I am not sure one can be found considering the background of the protestant reformation. 2602:304:788B:DF50:8CDD:5461:389A:631B ( talk) 23:19, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
Done. -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 20:24, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
Disagree! Please review the first sentence and its source in the Medieval and Renaissance periods section. Chicbyaccident ( talk) 20:26, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
While the article talks about the doctrines and devotions regarding the Virgin Mary, should it also have a subsection explaining the Catholic beliefs and practices regarding saints? (i.e. Beatification, Canonization, Litany of the Saints, Veneration, Intercession of saints, Patron saint, etc.) -- Willthacheerleader18 ( talk) 00:02, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved. There is consensus that these moves should go ahead, and I don't think it's paramount that we defer it until we can move everything related to this. Looking at Category:History_of_Roman_Catholicism_by_country, there's already a lot of inconsistency. — Amakuru ( talk) 11:04, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
– Per
WP:Consistency in accordance with
Catholic Church,
Category:Catholic Church,
Talk:Catholic Church,
Talk:Catholic Church in Armenia,
History of the Catholic Church,
History of the Catholic Church in Spain,
History of the Catholic Church in Brazil,
History of the Catholic Church in Japan, etc. (Note: Don't know how to avoid the first incorrect line of proposal which inappropriate addresses this very article)
Chicbyaccident (
talk)
21:21, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
Marcocapelle ( talk · contribs), TonyBallioni ( talk · contribs), Grabado ( talk · contribs), Randy Kryn ( talk · contribs), Jzsj ( talk · contribs), Jkadavoor ( talk · contribs): The above proposals are all related to the general Catholic Church perspective (thus not related to the Latin/Roman rite/Roman Catholic ongoing issue in sections further above). I made sure that the same perspective (avoiding the Latin/Roman rite/Roman Catholic issue) should apply also to my proposals at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2017_July_2. So I am rather surprised of the lack of equivalent support there. The disamibuguation issue of Latin/Roman rite can be sorted out in a later phase. Chicbyaccident ( talk) 12:54, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
Regarding by TSP ( talk · contribs). My remark is that Catholic Church (disambiguation) already contains the terminology sorting out help that the user seems to call for in the hatnote. I am therefore wondering for what reasons this should be doubled up, please? For the record, there are several others redirects to this article that isn't listed as "X and Y redirects here" - for obvious reasons since if applied would cause bit of a list really in the hatnote. Chicbyaccident ( talk) 10:26, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
On the Wikipedia:WikiProject Catholicism/Article alerts, currently there remains only two article name change proposals. Other than these, I believe there are no more "Roman Catholic" article titles on general topics throughout English Wikipedia (except names of certain dioceses in historically Catholic-minority regions). As a consequence of this state, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Catholic Church) has been created per WP:BOLD, where I have attempted to perceive the recurrent consensus in retroperspective of a quantity of past related discussions.
Following this, on a sidenote, I suggest that also the essay Wikipedia:Catholic or Roman Catholic? should be updated, including merge with hatnote-mentioned, relating essays of individual users.
All this may - and most likely will - of course be objected. Or even reversed, ultimately so I guess per Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Arbitration cases. Chicbyaccident ( talk) 20:31, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
References
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The very first sentence of this article is factually incorrect. It is a common misunderstanding is that the Catholic Church is also known as the Roman Catholic church. As Christianity spread throughout the world The essential elements of the Catholic faith were celebrated in the context and rituals of different cultures. These different cultural rituals evolved into over 20 liturgical Rites present in the Catholic Church today. The three main groups of Rites are the Roman, the Antiochian (Syria) and the Alexandrian (Egypt). It is important to clarify that though there are cultural differences in how liturgical rites are celebrated, all Catholics share the same faith. All Roman Catholics are Catholic but not all Catholics are Roman Catholics. Cmrosary ( talk) 01:13, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
For details, please see Talk:List of Christian_denominations#Proposal to let List of Christian denominations by number of members merge with this list. Chicbyaccident ( talk) 19:29, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
I'm here because of these two discussions in Wikimedia Commons [3] [4].
If, as stated in the first line of this article, the Catholic Church is also known as the Roman Catholic Church (that is, that the whole Roman Catholic Church includes both the Latin Church and Eastern Catholic Churches), then Category:Roman Catholic church buildings shouldn't be used for Catholic churches of the Latin Church, Category:Eastern Catholic church buildings for Catholic churches of Eastern Catholic Churches and Category:Catholic Church as a common container for both.
What do we do? -- Grabado ( talk) 11:08, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
Please note that Grabado opened this can of worms only because he made massive changes to the categorization tree concerning Roman Catholic churches over on Commons without the consensus to do so, and refuses to undo them, despite numerous editors telling him that he should. The only reason he's here is to bolster his position there, but he refuses to acknowledge that the question of what the categorization should be cannot take place until he undoes his disruptive non-consensual edits to the category hierarchy. Since this is essentially a Commons issue, and not an en.Wiki one, I suggest that this discussion be shut down, as it was opened under false pretenses. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 00:51, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
Thanks TSP and Chicbyaccident for the clarification. Grabado opened this discussion because another user asked him to do so. I see no bad intentions in it. My understanding is also inline with the current status of this articles. George Alencherry and Baselios Cleemis, who are heads of two Eastern Churches are Cardinals which confirms they are part of Roman Catholic Church. J e e 04:12, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
"Roman Catholic" AND "Greek Catholicwill show you some cases where it is used as a disambiguator from Eastern/Greek. To pick another random example from the Eastern Catholic Churches
"Roman Catholic" AND "Syro-Malabar"returns results that are favourable to the view that Roman is a synonym for the larger category, but also returns results that can be used to argue the opposite. In terms of categories the question should be if we know what we are talking about and if we can easily find it. I think we do here and don't see this as a big enough deal to need to have larger community discussion about a rename when nothing is broken. TonyBallioni ( talk) 06:30, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
Ghouston, we have it in the ha tnote, which links to Roman Catholic Church (disambiguation), and that page includes Latin Church. TonyBallioni ( talk) 05:16, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
Also see this section on the term Roman Catholic and page xxviii of this book on the Catholic Church in the Soviet Union to see an example of how the term can be used as a disambiguator in books published by academic presses. As Zfish118 points out above, the status quo is imperfect. It is defensible based on the sourcing, however, and it does serve a purpose in helping users find more specific sets of articles they want. TonyBallioni ( talk) 06:11, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
A couple comments:
In conclusion, it is thus entirely ambiguous as to what exactly "Roman Catholic" means, as there is no official answer, and the historical and canonical conditions under which the term developed have changed. It will be a matter of future academic and popular use as to which portions of are most properly called "Roman Catholic". We must simply use the best contemporary sources to provide commentary as usage evolves. – Zfish118⋉ talk 18:53, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
None would suggest adding "Roman" to the names of the very individual Eastern Catholic sui iuris churches. However, as these are just as part of the Catholic Church as the Latin Church, their members are just as Catholic (or Roman Catholic, in the same generic sense). Catholic Church is indeed sometimes referred to as the Roman Catholic Church, as are Catholics referred to as Roman Catholics. However, I have yet to see a credible reference to Roman rite (Latin Church) Catholics specifically - exclusively - as "Roman Catholic". Until, I would consider that at best an erratic innovation without any broader acclaim. The reason why you see the tree category indicate such taxonomy is simply because it has been neglected without the would-be consensus defined by the article realm but rather two synonyms. I would object to describe that state as a status quo representation of an established consensus. Chicbyaccident ( talk) 05:16, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I have yet to see serious references for such statements. Chicbyaccident ( talk) 11:37, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
|—(Roman) Catholic Church
|—|—(Roman) Catholic churches
|——|——Eastern Catholic churches
Thanks. See also a few more proposals here (with possibly more to add). Chicbyaccident ( talk) 21:13, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
On a slightly different issue, I would have more reservations about the use of "Catholic" as if it were an unambiguous term than about "Catholic Church". "Catholic" certainly is used, without any further disambiguation, by people outside the church body described in this article - consider for example the Society of Catholic Priests and Affirming Catholicism, among many others; as well as where the link Catholic takes you (it isn't here). "Roman Catholic" is reasonably unambiguous (barring debates about entire church vs Latin Rite); "Catholic Church" isn't, but at least has the authority of this being the primary article. "Catholic" is even less so, particularly in very general contexts like "Catholic Eucharistic theology". I'd say if "Roman" is to be taken out of these titles, "Church" should be put in; so "Roman Catholic Eucharistic theology" becoming "Eucharistic theology in the Catholic Church" is OK, I think; "Catholic Eucharistic theology", not so much.
(I do note that this is already used elsewhere, though - e.g. Catholic theology, though the actual bold text in that article is "theology of the Catholic Church", which I think would be a better title - when a Church of England report talks about "the Catholic theology underlying the Porvoo agreement", for example, they are not thinking of the subject of that article.) TSP ( talk) 08:51, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
I've finally got a list of all the categories that include "Roman Catholic" in their names. Let's start from the easy ones. It was already discussed to move all the categories like "Roman Catholic Church in someplace", but I've found that some of them remain unchanged: Category:Roman Catholic Church in Aruba, Category:Roman Catholic church in the Northern Territory, Category:Roman Catholic Church in New Brunswick, Category:Roman Catholic Church in Manitoba, Category:Roman Catholic Church in the Caribbean part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, Category:Roman Catholic church in Overseas France... and so on. All of them should be renamed, shouldn't they? -- Grabado ( talk) 07:22, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
Related categories have been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming . You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for discussion page. |
Category:Roman Catholic universities and colleges by country has been renamed as Category:Catholic universities and colleges by country after a CFR started by Chicbyaccident. All subcategories should be also renamed, not only because of consistency, but also because I've found that pages categorised under those categories refer not only to the Latin Church but the whole Catholic Church.
As you can see in Category:Roman Catholic universities and colleges in India, institutions such as Jyothi Engineering College, Cheruthuruthy, Thrissur, St. Ephrem Ecumenical Research Institute, St John's College, Anchal, or St. Joseph's College, Moolamattom are supported by the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church or the Syro-Malaknkara Catholic Church. -- Grabado ( talk) 17:10, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
Related categories have been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming . You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for discussion page. |
Related categories have been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming . You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for discussion page. |
Related categories have been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming . You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for discussion page. |
There is currently an RfC at Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(Catholic_Church)#RfC:_should_this_page_be_made_a_naming_convention asking if the proposed naming convention for the Catholic Church should be made an official naming convention. All are welcomed to comment. TonyBallioni ( talk) 21:34, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
Chicbyaccident made a helpful note on the name section that "undo" weight was given to certain viewpoints in the name section. That is certainly true. However, the bigger problem is that the name section uses few, if any, secondary or tertiary sources to discuss changing trends in the terminology. This is equally true for both "Catholic" and "Roman Catholic", which rely on original research and synthesis to draw conclusions about naming trends solely by examining original primary source documents. Only examples of use are provided, and no scholarly sources are used to provide commentary on those examples; one would have to personally review all of the sources to confirm the current commentary. Rather than stack a series of warning templates, which is sloppy, I placed only the "primary source" template, which if addressed, would cover any "undo weight" concerns. – Zfish118⋉ talk 12:53, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
There is a discussion taking place at Talk:Catholic–Lutheran dialogue#Requested move 22 October 2017 that editors of this article might be interested in. All are invited to participate. – Zfish118⋉ talk 13:32, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Name of the Catholic Church which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 20:46, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
The second to last sentence of the lead paragraph should say, "the majority of Catholics reside in the southern hemisphere due to the secularisation of Europe." - Thomas Calvin
I clicked on "Roman Catholic faith" in a different article and got redirected to this article. At the top, it said "Redirected from Catholicism". Vorbee ( talk) 16:56, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
The last paragraph of the lead section should be removed. No religion is described in terms of "criticisms" that have been made of it. To do so is to border on the absurd and patently fails WP:NOPV and WP:RECENTISM. The subject of the article is a two thousand year old institution and someone thought it was a good idea for several specific criticisms from localized communities in the world from the late 20th century to be included in the lead section? It's not even referenced. Unless there is an objection, I will remove it in due time. Ergo Sum 01:20, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Lead paragraphs in Wikipedia are supposed to include all outstanding controversies. Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section: "The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies."
In the case of an organization with a long criminal history such as the Catholic Church, hiding the controversies for which it is known for would be whitewashing. "To whitewash is a metaphor meaning "to gloss over or cover up vices, crimes or scandals or to exonerate by means of a perfunctory investigation or through biased presentation of data".
Chicbyaccident, while I would personally like to see a better historical coverage in this article, the lead can't currently cover either religious persecution (initiated by Catholics, or targeting Catholics), nor Anti-Catholicism. The lead is supposed to summarize the body of the article, and (to my surprise) this entire article does not cover either topic and does not even link to the relevant articles. How did this get rated a GA article with such outstanding omissions? Dimadick ( talk) 06:15, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
The final sentence of the lead paragraph should be changed to read "the Catholic Church has been criticised for its doctrines on marriage, sexual conduct, contraceptives, abortion and the ordination of women to the priesthood, as well as its handling of sexual abuse cases involving members of the clergy. The Church has since reformed how it handles clerical sexual abuse cases during the papacy of Pope Benedict XVI and continues to reform under Pope Francis." Or some such change to that effect needs to be made. The sentence needs to be made more specific, and there should be some mention that the Church has addressed these issues. ThomasCalvin ( talk) 23:38, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
The official name of this organization, as indicated by the Apostles creed and the nicean creed is the "Catholic Church". Editor2343 ( talk) 10:13, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
Greetings, I added the Lead notice because it exceeds the 4 paragraph limit per MOS. Regards, — JoeHebda • ( talk) 00:39, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
The word Tithe doesn't appear in this article. Is that okay? Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 23:25, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
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To simplify the lead for future maintenance, following guidance at WP:LEADCITE, I have trimmed out a few redundant citations for non-controversial information. Most of these citation are repeated in the body of the article, or refer the same sections of the Catechism that are cited in body.
(Pope is Catholic)
(Papal claim of succession)
(Church claim of infallibility)
(Eucharist - Consolidating to one end of paragraph citation)
{{
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ignored (|url-status=
suggested) (
help)(Mary)
{{
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: Unknown parameter |deadurl=
ignored (|url-status=
suggested) (
help)According to paragraph 44: "...we [Pope Pius XII] pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory."
{{
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ignored (|url-status=
suggested) (
help) (ref name="Munificentissimus Deus") –
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talk
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Just like Thomas Aquinas who is a part of a series of Christianity. 124.106.132.207 ( talk) 22:41, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
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change civilisation to civilization. Okhons ( talk) 15:04, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
I've removed the following unsourced claims.
1) Unlike other charities, however, the Catholic Church does not reveal its total wealth for unknown reasons.
[10]
2) A study in 2018 found the Catholic Church's net worth to be worth over US$30bn in Australia alone. [1] [2] [11]
References
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The Catholic Church / Holy See is an absolute monarchy - see "government type" in CIA's factbook ( CIA link). User:Dave Dial has deleted the relevant info. I have reverted it. -- CarlPhilippTrump.me ( talk) 13:32, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
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"civilisations" in first paragraph must be changed to "civilizations" Aramirezruiz ( talk) 04:00, 10 April 2018 (UTC)Aramirezruiz
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Having three languages at the top of the Infobox is a bit much, and I would request that all but the English and Latin names be removed. Latin, while not strictly necessary, is the official legal language of the Church, while Greek is a language used by a small minority, and Italian has no status other than as an approved vernacular for the liturgy. – Zfish118⋉ talk 03:24, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
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The following statement should be corrected to conform to the policy on articles having a neutral point of view: "In the account of the Confession of Peter found in the Gospel of Matthew, Christ designates Peter as the "rock" upon which Christ's church will be built"
It is merely the interpretation of the Roman Catholic church that this is the meaning of this passage. Therefore, the text should be edited to reflect this fact. HDavi ( talk) 15:59, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
Suggestion: "According to the Catholic interpretation of the account of the Confession of Peter found in the Gospel of Matthew, Christ designates Peter as the "rock" upon which Christ's church will be built" — Preceding unsigned comment added by HDavi ( talk • contribs) 16:02, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
Though in the past some authorities considered that the title, meaning “rock,” refers to Jesus himself or to Peter’s faith, the consensus of the great majority of scholars today is that the most obvious and traditional understanding should be construed—namely, that the title refers to the person of Peter. In John the title was granted at what may have been the first meeting between Jesus and Simon (1:42). Thus, when the name was given is open to question, but that the name was given by Jesus to Simon seems fairly certain. Matthew goes on to state that upon this rock—that is, upon Peter—the church will be built.
What is the correct capitalization when referring to "the church" / "the Church" as a shorthand for "the Roman Catholic Church"? The article should be internally consistent whatever the decision is. MaxBrowne ( talk) 01:40, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
Incorrect | (generic): | The University offers programs in arts and sciences. |
Correct | (generic): | The university offers programs in arts and sciences. |
Correct | (title): | The University of Delhi offers programs in arts and sciences. |
Anyone know? Wqwt ( talk) 06:14, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
I asked before and never got a response, but wanted some feedback before deciding.. should we make a subsection, perhaps under doctrines, about saints? The article barely mentions the Church's teachings on saints (particularly patronage, veneration, and devotion). Saintly intercession is a huge part of Catholic practice that isn't as prevalent in other forms of Christianity (with the exception of Orthodoxy and, in some regards, Anglicanism). Thoughts? -- Willthacheerleader18 ( talk) 23:09, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
I'm sorry this is not at all official and I don't have time to find proof, but: the Church as an institution should definitely be capitalized, along with the Body and Blood of Christ Sorry for the extra work if anyone has to spend the time to remove this because it is not correctly "filed" Thanks if you actually put the work in to correct this and don't delete it Sessssssss ( talk) 02:53, 29 May 2018 (UTC)Sessssssss 5/28/18
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You could add on the introduction page just after where it explains difficulties within the 20th century that the church still continues to remains to grow and hold popularity amount members. https://www.worldreligionnews.com/religion-news/is-the-catholic-church-experiencing-exponential-growth-or-declining https://www.huffingtonpost.com/stan-chu-ilo/pope-francis-and-the-remaking-of-modern-catholicism_b_6852468.html?guccounter=1 86.178.136.47 ( talk) 13:10, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
Note: The below requested edit would be inaccurate because Catholic church has lost many members including my family, due to pressing political & secular positions it has taken more recently while stating they embrace all, but practice exclusion-such as now forbidding communion to any visitors for 1)catholic; 2) not confessioned & 3) promoting conservative political alignments over liberated concepts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.183.62.80 ( talk) 20:27, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
in this edit been removed a section about the universities assertion, well the article do not cited that Oxford and Cambridge are catholic universities, on the source there are two catholic universities affiliation among them are University of Notre Dame (rank 93) and KU Leuven (rank 77). even if in other list ranks such as Times Higher Education World University Rankings QS World University Rankings list 2016, KU Leuven and Boston College (an catholic university) rank between 61-70 while Georgetown University was ranked in 104, in QS World University Rankings in 2017 three catholic universities (include KU Leuven 79 and Pontificia Universidad Católica de Chile 143 and Université cathoTSP Alerts (0) Notices (0) TalkSandboxPreferencesBetaWatchlistContlique de Louvain) were ranked between 101-150. So the section was giving true information, why it's been deleted?.
Also it's hard to fin an source for the assertion: " It runs and sponsors thousands of primary and secondary schools, colleges and universities throughout the world." Here is an source that Catholicc Church operates the world's largest non-governmental school system. [1] and that's has [www.onlinedigeditions.com/publication/index.php?i=365491&m=&l=&p=1&pre=&ver=html5#"{" 43,800 secondary schools, and 95,200 primary schools, the source is from the church itself]. also according to the census of the Vatican's Congregation for Catholic Education, the total number of Catholic universities and higher education institutions around the world is 1,358. In the U.S.A alone the church run 6,685 total Catholic (elementary and high) schools and 262 colleges and universities educating more than 940,000 students. -- 213.57.242.20 ( talk) 14:54, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Acording to QS World University Rankings, there were three Catholic universities ( KU Leuven and Pontificia Universidad Católica de Chile and Université catholique de Louvain) among the top 150 universities of the world. [2]
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In the introduction, we are carrying a sentence which is basically arguing in favour of the social views of bourgeois liberals in Western Europe and North America, using weasel words. It is essentially using the introduction of this article to lobby in a one sided fashion for homosexuality and the Anglo-liberal vision for feminism.
Now, similarly, on the articles for other religions; Orthodox Judaism, Islam and the Orthodox Church, all of these major religions are also opposed to the bourgeois liberal view of sexuality and they also do not permit women to the ranks of their clergy. Is there any particular reason why we are singling out the Catholic Church, other than the fact that... lets call a spade-a-spade, bourgeois liberals of Germanic provenance, particularly those of an Anglo-Saxon hue, have a special little hereditary hard on when it comes to the Catholic Church?
I think we need to come up with a more balanced summary for the late 20th century onward period. Claíomh Solais ( talk) 14:30, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
I've reverted Claíomh Solais's recent unilateral changes to the lead section because (1) they lack consensus and are at odds with the discussion above, (2) introduce poorly written and vague language, and (3) fail to reflect the body of the article. Claíomh Solais, can you please stay on topic? Your antipathy to "bourgeois liberals" and "Anglo-liberal vision for feminism" (whatever that even means) is utterly irrelevant here. Neutrality talk 06:14, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
I am here for two reasons. Firstly, I find the first sentence unclear, and am told I must discuss before changing it. Secondly, I am also told to check the archives. That's pointless. You try, and see how many hits you get for the words "member" or "members"! So, sorry if this has been discussed before.
The first sentence says the church "is the largest Christian church, with approximately 1.3 billion members worldwide". "The word "members" is not defined, and could mean anything. My Google translation of the source actually says that 1.3 billion is "the number of baptized Catholics in the world". That's obviously not the same as members. Why don't we use precisely that wording? Surely our policies say we should. HiLo48 ( talk) 06:39, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
This article says that Luther sent his ninety-five theses to several bishops - but did he not nail them to the church door at Wittenberg? I have heard it said that he put them up on wax. Vorbee ( talk) 06:59, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
"History and development of Western civilisation" Correct spell for civilization, instead of what it is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnnyHGT ( talk • contribs) 20:06, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
The lead makes mention of the important East-West schism, but no mention of Protestantism emerging from the Catholic Church, although this is a major event in the Church's history, which could be argued to be the most significant and consequential, with far reaching consequences (major wars, loss of papal influence, etc). I know I could WP:JUSTDOIT but given that this is a highly visible article, I'd rather put the notion here first. — Define Real ( talk) 20:05, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
The current paragraph reads:
The Catholic Church shared communion with the Eastern Orthodox Church until the East–West Schism in 1054, disputing particularly the authority of the Pope, as well as with the Oriental Orthodox churches prior to the Chalcedonian schism in 451 over differences in Christology. The Reformation of the 16th century resulted in Protestantism breaking away.
I recently changed "Protestantism" to "Protestant Churches", in order to match the convention used in the rest of the paragraph: "Eastern Orthodox Church" and "Oriental Orthodox churches". Could you kindly explain why this was reverted? Thanks, Anupam Talk 19:19, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
change the short description from 'Christian church led by the Bishop of Rome' to 'Christian church led by the Roman Pontiff'
while the Pope is the Bishop of Rome, he is the highest authority in the Catholic Church, and therefore should be given a title above all other bishops. ChristusImperat, CSSML ( talk) 23:42, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
How is this possible? Surely the child sexual abuse is a major aspect that must be covered? Seraphim System ( talk) 23:36, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
The claim that the Catholic Church is the "oldest continuously functioning international institution" has a reliable source, but it still incorrect, given the Samaritan High Priest. I understand the term "international" as a qualifier might seem to disqualify the Samaritan High Priest, but since Samaritans live in both Israel and the West Bank, that qualifies the Samaritan High Priesthood as an international institution.
So, how to fix the claim? Not sure, anyone want to try?-- Epiphyllumlover ( talk) 00:08, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
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Talk:Catholicism redirects here, just as as Catholicism redirects to Catholic Church. So I write here about the Catholicism redirect page. I looked up its history. Does it look correct or is it "cut" somehow? If so, would it be possible to fix so that its full history is accessible? Perhaps here is some clue to what went wrong? Hopefully some administrator could give a helping hand or at least advice here. PPEMES ( talk) 00:24, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
Catholic theology is based on the Nicene Creed. The Catholic Church teaches that it is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church founded by Jesus Christ,[7][8][note 1] that its bishops are the successors of Christ's apostles, and that the pope is the successor to Saint Peter to whom primacy was conferred by Jesus Christ.[11] It maintains that it practises the original Christian faith, reserving infallibility, passed down by sacred tradition.[12] The Latin Church, the twenty-three Eastern Catholic Churches, and institutes such as mendicant orders and enclosed monastic orders reflect a variety of theological and spiritual emphases in the church.[13][14]
This definition is interesting as it doesn't seem to be in conflict, philosophically with a pagan belief system. 108.200.234.93 ( talk) 08:09, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
Latin Church is the particular church of Latin rite. However to say other Rites such as Alexandrian, Byzantine, East Syriac, and West Syriac to be Roman is not proper word use. Roman Catholic is most appropriate when referencing Latin Church not Catholic Church. This article is an explanation that may clear confusion [1]On more information on the Latin particular church look at this article [2]. Also, if there is anymore confusion on nomenclature, read this article [3] I hope for a friendly exchange. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Manabimasu ( talk • contribs) 03:58, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
@ Haldraper and Hyperbolick: Yes, I saw, so can Roman Catholic refer to Roman_Catholic_Church_(disambiguation).
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Redirects here are under attack by user:Manabimasu. See his recent edits. Please, help. Hyperbolick ( talk) 01:50, 26 April 2019 (UTC) I want to confirm. That I did Change the redirects to the disambiguation page. I would like to know what rules I broke besides being reckless. I only reverted two or three times. I would like a discussion. I want to be civil. So for every page with “Roman” I changed to Roman Catholic disambiguation. I won’t change it back because I have bias. I want to know the opinions of editors. Also, to hyperbolick, Thanks for informing of my reckless edits. I need attention towards the discussion. Manabimasu ( talk) 01:57, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
Yes, Can you point out my error? Please quote the violation. I would welcome the opportunity to learn. Also, I would like to learn how to achieve a consensus. To add in Edit_requests#Planning_a_request there is a statement “Uncontroversial changes don't require sourcing, such as correcting typographical errors or disambiguating links. ” I thought I could redirect to a disambiguation page. Manabimasu ( talk) 02:09, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
Ok Manabimasu ( talk) 02:31, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
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PLZ CHANGE ORGANISATION TO ORGANIZATION 67.1.250.231 ( talk) 22:38, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
There are several issues with the final paragraph of the " Catholic Church#Name" section:
The name "Catholic Church" for the whole church is used in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1990), and the Code of Canon Law (1983). It was also used in the documents of the Second Vatican Council (1962–1965), the First Vatican Council (1869–1870), [1] the Council of Trent (1545–1563), [2] and numerous other official documents. [3] [4] [5] original research?
The final paragraph references exclusively primary sources, with no sources providing scholarly commentary on the significant of the use of "Catholic Church". More commentary is needed from reliable sources to describe why "(Holy) Roman Church" is used at least 25 times in the documents of Trent, while "Catholic Church" is used 34 times. Or why Vatican I uses "Roman Church" 5 times compared to "Catholic Church" 11 times. The use of primary sources can only be used to assert the trivial fact that the words "Catholic Church" were used in various documents of the three councils and other Papal bulls. Additional sources would be required to assert any significance of this usage in the primary sources.
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The title is self-explanatory. What are editors’ thoughts on this? Manabimasu ( talk) 02:32, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
This may be contentious, but the pope is the visible head of the Catholic Church while Jesus is the invisible head. This distinction should be made. I refer to CCC 739,CCC 747 [1],CCC 885 [2],CCC 792 [3], CCC 1548 [4], CCC 765 [5]. Call out these references if there is cherry picking which there is. The change is the Visible Head is the pope while the Invisible head is Jesus. Thoughts? Manabimasu ( talk) 21:03, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
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A reminder to editors that this article is written in British English, so the more common British spellings and punctuation styles are meant to be used throughout. The exceptions are with direct quotations and proper names. Thanks. Yahboo ( talk) 01:48, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
Can someone please fix the problem with the references appearing at the bottom of the talk page (under this message at present). This is very confusing. I know there is a way to fix this but can't remember what it is. Thanks. Yahboo ( talk) 01:52, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
The article below says 1.4 billion now. Is the number in the article out of date? http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Worldwide-number-of-Catholics-grows-to-1.4-billion--44154.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.249.206.28 ( talk) 04:58, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
Here are the latest figures - https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/bollettino/pubblico/2019/03/06/190306b.html but this is a primary source and Wikipedia may think Catholic Church is lying about the numbers. So there needs to be an independent research group. User:PPEMES Asia news is referring to the Annuarium Statisticum Ecclesiae but the figures are from 2016 not from 2017. Thoughts? Manabimasu ( talk) 12:42, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
Should the word "Catholicism" be introduced/mentioned somewhere in the lead section (other than in the hatnote), even in bold or italic text, and if so where and how? PPEMES ( talk) 22:22, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
The website in the infobox seems unnecessary. The website points to the Holy See website and although I could understand how that could be the Catholic Church website. It is not official. Thoughts? Manabimasu ( talk) 11:37, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
The {{ Catholic Church sexual abuse cases}} template had been placed at the bottom of the visible template stack, then removed from the page by an editor asking if it was WP:RECENTISM. Recentism discusses using the ten-year test ( WP:10YT), i.e. would someone ten years from now be surprised at the inclusion. The long-term historical nature of events discussed on the template seem to negate the recentism objection. Randy Kryn ( talk) 11:47, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
if not for the navigation template, an editor would be inclined to link many of these articles in the See also sections of the articles.In the present case, I doubt that an editor would be inclined to link the several hundreds of links in these templates in the See also section of the Catholic Church article. Especially, I doubt that all the individual articles in the sex abuse cases template would be worth linking in the See also section of the Catholic Church article. Place Clichy ( talk) 12:10, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
I hadn't realised that the pile of stacked templates at the bottom of the page was so recent - changed 10 days ago by Randy Kryn. I've undone this - I don't think there is any sign that this change has consensus: PPEMES, Place Clichy and I are objecting, no-one but Randy seems to be supporting it. More generally, I still don't believe that there is any Wikipedia policy supporting any such concept as "template respect", which was one of the reasons given when adding it. TSP ( talk) 14:01, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
"Martin Luther, originally an Augustinian friar, initiated the Protestant Reformation against the Catholic Church in 1517." - this is totally untrue. Martin Luther, and many of the Protestant Reformers, never intended the Reformation to be a movement "against" the Catholic Church. Many of them wanted an internal reform, including Luther. This should be corrected to a more neutral sentence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.47.165.9 ( talk) 18:13, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
I was scanning the page and I came across this- "In the first thousand years of Catholic history, different varieties of Christianity developed in the Western and Eastern Christian areas of Europe." I find this a bit confusing. Eastern Christianity is not limited to Europe. In fact, it was most noted in Asia minor and in other places besides Europe. Is Catholic interchangeable with Christianity? Of course, I want let my bias get in the way of WP:Neutraility. I suggest the following for a "Christianity"-word-centered lede: "In the first thousand years of Christian history, different varieties of Christianity developed throughout the Roman-known World as the Western and Eastern rites." I also suggest the following for a "Catholicism"-word-centered lede: "In the first thousand years of Catholic history, different varieties of Catholic rites developed as Western and Eastern." Note- "Rite" and "rite" have slight changes. I am open to suggestions as well. Thoughts? Manabimasu ( talk) 05:02, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
Related to article Catholic Church. Please see: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Catholicism#Interrelated_top_categories_and_talks. PPEMES ( talk) 13:11, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
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The Catholic Church, a communion of 23 Churches in Communion with the Bishop of Rome, Acook2016 ( talk) 16:24, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
The first sentence of the present article states that the Catholic Church is "also known as the Roman Catholic Church."
This should be clarified to make clear that Latin/Roman is only ONE of the TWO DOZEN Rites of the Catholic Church, ALL of which are in union with Rome and equal members of the Catholic (Universal) Church
The Google search gives:
There are 24 such autonomous Catholic churches: One Latin Church (i.e., Western) and 23 Eastern Catholic Churches", a distinction by now more historical than geographical. Although each of them has its own specific heritage, they are all in full communion with the Pope in Rome. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:741:8000:24EC:1544:F3C9:F277:4E78 ( talk) 22:33, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
I believe we do not need to come up with every single extant liturgical language to put in the infobox, which is meant as a quick-glance summary of simple data, not an exhaustive list of every possible trivia. The liturgical languages of the Eastern Churches are adequately covered as vernacular languages (because ECs strive to worship in the vernacular wherever possible). (Also, I have no idea that any EC Church makes substantial use of Koine Greek in its liturgy. We would need sources to back that up.) But I feel it is better not to attempt to list them all there in the infobox, please. Elizium23 ( talk) 22:02, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
The second paragraph of the article begins "The Christian beliefs of Catholicism are based on the Nicene Creed." That statement is backwards; the Nicene Creed is obviously based on the Christian beliefs of Catholicism, not the other way around.
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph to read "The Nicene Creed is based on the Christian beliefs of Catholicism."
I think the Nazi history is problematic. It was removed in November for good reason (NPOV): it had only been added on November 2, by @ SMendel: who seems rather single-minded about Nazis and the Catholic Church. The "darker side" editorializing is worthy of tabloids which are cited. The citations are linked to book reviews and not the books. I do not know if all this is WP:DUE in the general article on the Catholic Church, rather than History of the Catholic Church. Elizium23 ( talk) 14:07, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
the Infobox Photo does not represent the entire facade of St. Peter's Basilica (or at least not in a good way), i propose one of the following images to replace this one.
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File:Basilica Sancti Petri blue hour.jpg or
File:Basilica Sancti Petri blue hourl - Retouch.jpg
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File:0 Basilique Saint-Pierre - Rome (2).JPG or
File:0 Basilique Saint-Pierre - Rome.JPG
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The Sr Guy (
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