This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
I notice several ambiguities needing to be adressed:
Each and every comment of yours is flourished with subjective judgments and clearly unionist-flavoure backgound. Sorry to tell you that, but in no way you can represent a legit voice for secesionism alegation.
Besides it´s funny how you propose a section with critiques,but don´t mention the same for the other side
Both ideas AFAIK depeloped separately and have different backgrounds. Beside some punctual exceptions, the Catalan Countries idea, originating in Valencia, didn't came into the radical nationalist of Catalonia till the 1970's (I remember a group called PSAN beeing the most vocal about then ) and for what I recall it only latter became part of the ERC ideology-. I don't think they should be merged - Wllacer 16:31, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
The map [1] in the article as of 27 October 2005 makes absolutly no sense in this context, and even less the caption. If nobody objects (why?) I'll remove it in a few days -- 217.12.16.56 16:41, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Since we are not talking of the actual independence of Catalonia or the Catalan Countries. I think this article should be merged in Catalan nationalism as it is done with other nationalist movements. Catalan independentism may be regarded as a part of Catalan nationalism and it can be further developed there. Toniher 09:25, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
I disagree as well. PSC is a nationalistic party but not independentist. There is even a general understanding that the traditional flag currently reprsenting the autonomous region represents continuism on the vein of moderate nationalistim wherea s the estelada flag, with the blue/red triangle and the star, represents the more extremist or independent view
As the above, Catalan indepentism is a name used by the Catalan nationalist left due to aversion to the term Nationalism. It is a subset of nationalism, and its main representatives, the ERC, no longer really advocate independence as anything other than a vague aspiration. boynamedsue That´s false. nationalism and independentism is not the same as I exlpained before. The real discussion is among the three words secessionism, independentims and separatism. The third one is clearly used with negative connation by unionists. Seceesionism sounds more formal, and it´s preferred by unionists because it sounds destructive (divorce), whereas independentism is preferred by the other side since it sounds more ocnstructives and I think it´s fairly the most common in both medias. Also all PDCat, ERC and CUP are openly supporting independence.e, I guess your comment is outdated
Would not be interesting to note that it was created mainly by valencians ?
A couple of trivia (personal memories) which would be perhaps interesting to the article, or one of its own. It's up to you.
In 1977 (it's the official date, but i recall they acted as-if earlier) PSAN adopted a "marxist-leninist" ideology.
Around that time the party was split in an oficial and a provisional branch. The latter, a very small group, favored armed fight and were excelently funded (they had a wonderful printing press in Perpignan, and even published poetry books). As terrorist they were a disaster. They tried a couple of actions and were caught in the act and the group had disbanded by 1978
The last two years of the decade were marked with the reality bite of the lack of social support and the relations with basque counterparts. Some favored EIA and others HASI, with all it meant.
By that time I had lost any interest in them, but I've heard they still exists, and once i saw its webpage. -- Wllacer 09:25, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I have tagged the table with the evolution of support for independence per [WP:OR] concerns because it is extracted from a personal page (secondary at best, if not tertiary, source) which supports Catalan independentism (added [WP:POV] concern).
I paid a quick look at it and I remember, for example, that the percentages were in some cases calculated by the person in charge of the blog. While not necessarily having to be wrong, given the non compliant nature of this source with NPOV, the safest is to tag them until a better, academic, source is found.
This said, please note that I am assuming good faith from this table; that is why I am not removing it, just tagging it. Mountolive all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair 19:41, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Looks like this hasnt been properly understood. The ICPS source is fine. But there is a secondary source (which is a personal page supporting Catalan independentism, by any means compliant with NPOV) which is the one actually summarizing the original (and valid) source. Since the original source is valid, I won't ask for this graph removal, but, all the same, since the secondary source (the personal blog) is the one summarizing and elaborating the primary data, an WP:OR still remains. In other words, to remove the OR concern, it would be needed the ICPS itself (or any other given scholarly institution) to be the one elaborating the graph, not a likely to be biased individual. Mountolive all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair 11:37, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
In my opinion, it is not the best option to have a self-proclaimed Catalan independentist to elaborate the relative graph on Catalan independentism. It's a matter of NPOV and, if you may, even a matter of style.
SO you expect the catalan independence cause article is written only by non-independentist people, which aren´t obviously biased? We should value each and every contribution, specially those that refer to facts.
How do we know that he hasnt rounded up data? who is controlling that he's been perfectly true to the data he has summarized? No one will bother to do so (at least I won't). I think these are legitimate concerns which should be covered by the OR tag.
In contrast, I have no problem to admit the value of the table and that it could surpass the concerns associated to it. Therefore I won't insist on this tag for the time being.
Mountolive
all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair
14:18, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Image:No soc espanyol.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 00:51, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I was surprised about the last edition in the article where it is stated that according to last polls the support to independence by Catalans is no more that one fifth of the population. Well, I am not sure that estimation is accurate for two reasons: (1) it is referred to an article in The Economist where, as far as I can see, no source for such a poll is cited, and (2) according to other sources the estimation is much higher [2]. In fact, higher estimations are even referred afterwards in the article, which makes it inconsistent. We should find a better wording and sourcing about that particular issue.-- Carles Noguera ( talk) 15:37, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
This is outdated claim.
I agree in that raw data is definitely the best option. I have made some tweaks, basically, salvaging The Economist source, cut-pasting a paragraph to relocate it in a more proper section, removing the outdated graph and some remarks which I think are worth noting. Your turn, please :) Mountolive fedeli alla linea 02:48, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
just to reduce their lenght, do you think trimming the tables would be a good idea? for example, in the ICPS series, we could use data from every 5 years rather than year by year. Then we would have results from the years 1992, 1997, 2002 and 2007. We could do something similar to the other table and get rid of some months.
The idea is just to make the whole thing more appealing to the eye and readable. Mountolive fedeli alla linea 03:07, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Separatism is a pejorative term, and should not be used in an article such as this. It is unfortunately all too common in the press, although it is clearly a biased name for it.-- MacRusgail ( talk) 19:19, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm about seven years too late to this discussion, but, even accepting that "separatism" is perjorative per se, there is no actual reason why a non-perjorative title has to be chosen. The wiki rule is to chose a common name regardless of whether it has negative connotations. There is no way to talk about the Brighton hotel bombing that doesn't sound bad, because it was bad. Now, as luck would have it, "Catalan independence" is almost as commonly used as "Catalan separatism" and avoided the edit-warring that using "separatism" would have caused, so it was chosen, but had it not been available "separatism" would have been the obvious choice. Euqally, there is no reason why "separatism" should be banned from this page. FOARP ( talk) 13:41, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
I suggest to revise some of the things that had been writing down below the polls of people supporting the independence of Catalonia and people being agains it.
Just down below the last poll where you read that the last poll is 45% and 32% you can read that 51% of people in Catalonia is against independence?
Could you clear more that?
Carlos Manrique Pérez — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.131.14.241 ( talk) 17:34, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
I went to the source number [22] sand the figures there do not match the ones stated in the article. Page 109 of document [4] states that instead of
2011[22] 41.4 22.9 26.5 9.2
should be
2011[22] 43.7 25.1 22.3 8.9
Morover I agree with the problem pointed out by Carlos Manrique Pérez. The Figure of 51% refers to one poll of 2007, and the independence option in Catalonia has been changing in these last years (check the tables to see Pro has increased, Against has decreased and Abstain or Undecided has gown). How should I proceed? I can change the wrong figures and rephrase the sentence go 51% to a sentence that explain this rapid changes from 2007 to 2011. Enric ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Enric) [26/01/2011] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Enric ( talk • contribs) 12:14, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
What is the difference (if any) between this article and the Catalan nationalism article? If none, can the two articles be merged? Gfcvoice ( talk) 05:56, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
"Independentism"? This does not really sound like an English word - we normally simply say "Catalan independence". See Scottish independence, Welsh independence, Taiwan independence, etc. Do a Google search for "independentism" and it comes back to this page - the newspapers, academia etc. all use the phrase "Catalan independence". — Preceding unsigned comment added by FOARP ( talk • contribs) 06:30, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
Anyone got a problem with changing it to "Catalan Independence?" FOARP ( talk) 13:14, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved. FOARP ( talk) 11:48, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
Catalan independentism → Catalan independence –
"Independentism" is not an English word, and is not the word commonly used to describe support for independence for Catalonia or the Catalan countries. Instead, Catalan independence or separatism is the commonly used term.
Here's the Google News hits:
"Catan Independentism" - 1 hit (a blog written by a Spanish-speaker)
"Catalan Independence" - 4,420 hits including major outlets
"Catalan Separatism" - 5,530 hits including major outlets
Clearly this page needs a new title which reflects proper English usage - independence or separatist both appear viable candidates. "Separatist" has been suggested and rejected several times, so if it is not acceptible, I suggest Catalan independence, similar to Welsh independence, Scottish independence and Taiwan independence. FOARP ( talk) 11:30, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
The picture whose description says Catalonia is not Spain tagged on a wall in the suburbs of Madrid is not right. It makes nonsense being near Madrid. According to the picture's description itself in Commons, it is taken in Catalonia. The text must be Catalonia is not Spain tagged on a wall in Catalonia, for instance. Enric.enwiki ( talk) 17:26, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
Maybe I'm just blind but I don't seem to see the relevant discussion on what's not neutral about this article. I could see why this article would be controversial but isn't it necessary for those with NPOV concerns to talk about it in the talk section? -- 69.126.210.25 ( talk) 17:53, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
I think this article should be renamed "Catalan independentism" because it is about the political movement, not about a hypothetical future independence of this territory. In addition that is the term used in both the Catalan-language and Spanish-language wikipedias. However the article with that title already exists, which makes the move technically complicated. I would therefore like to make sure that nobody objects to the move before requesting it. -- Hispalois ( talk) 07:10, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
November 9 the Catalans are voting in a referendum about the EU; while Spain is tired of rightwing conservatives AND the old left wing, they seem to go towards new leftwing party Podemos. Meanwhile, Catalunia will be more rightwing conservative if it will be independent. This is the general opinion in the streets of Tarragona and Barcelona. Basvossen ( talk)Basvossen Basvossen ( talk)
The reason for not NPOV compliance: it would be appropriate to include Against-independence public figures, as it is also a significant viewpoint (see WP:DUE)). It is also easy to find references for against-independece catalan public figures. Otherwise, only one side receives attention and creates a partial, therefore not neutral, point of view. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.84.69.83 ( talk) 01:04, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Have there really been so few recent polls? Do only the CEO and CIS do regular polls on this subject?
The polling section has a lot of very old polls, I think it could do with being trimmed and made concise, like for example the [ [5]] article (and even that section could be trimmed a bit) - 95.44.48.43 ( talk) 21:50, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
I notice several ambiguities needing to be adressed:
Each and every comment of yours is flourished with subjective judgments and clearly unionist-flavoure backgound. Sorry to tell you that, but in no way you can represent a legit voice for secesionism alegation.
Besides it´s funny how you propose a section with critiques,but don´t mention the same for the other side
Both ideas AFAIK depeloped separately and have different backgrounds. Beside some punctual exceptions, the Catalan Countries idea, originating in Valencia, didn't came into the radical nationalist of Catalonia till the 1970's (I remember a group called PSAN beeing the most vocal about then ) and for what I recall it only latter became part of the ERC ideology-. I don't think they should be merged - Wllacer 16:31, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
The map [1] in the article as of 27 October 2005 makes absolutly no sense in this context, and even less the caption. If nobody objects (why?) I'll remove it in a few days -- 217.12.16.56 16:41, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Since we are not talking of the actual independence of Catalonia or the Catalan Countries. I think this article should be merged in Catalan nationalism as it is done with other nationalist movements. Catalan independentism may be regarded as a part of Catalan nationalism and it can be further developed there. Toniher 09:25, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
I disagree as well. PSC is a nationalistic party but not independentist. There is even a general understanding that the traditional flag currently reprsenting the autonomous region represents continuism on the vein of moderate nationalistim wherea s the estelada flag, with the blue/red triangle and the star, represents the more extremist or independent view
As the above, Catalan indepentism is a name used by the Catalan nationalist left due to aversion to the term Nationalism. It is a subset of nationalism, and its main representatives, the ERC, no longer really advocate independence as anything other than a vague aspiration. boynamedsue That´s false. nationalism and independentism is not the same as I exlpained before. The real discussion is among the three words secessionism, independentims and separatism. The third one is clearly used with negative connation by unionists. Seceesionism sounds more formal, and it´s preferred by unionists because it sounds destructive (divorce), whereas independentism is preferred by the other side since it sounds more ocnstructives and I think it´s fairly the most common in both medias. Also all PDCat, ERC and CUP are openly supporting independence.e, I guess your comment is outdated
Would not be interesting to note that it was created mainly by valencians ?
A couple of trivia (personal memories) which would be perhaps interesting to the article, or one of its own. It's up to you.
In 1977 (it's the official date, but i recall they acted as-if earlier) PSAN adopted a "marxist-leninist" ideology.
Around that time the party was split in an oficial and a provisional branch. The latter, a very small group, favored armed fight and were excelently funded (they had a wonderful printing press in Perpignan, and even published poetry books). As terrorist they were a disaster. They tried a couple of actions and were caught in the act and the group had disbanded by 1978
The last two years of the decade were marked with the reality bite of the lack of social support and the relations with basque counterparts. Some favored EIA and others HASI, with all it meant.
By that time I had lost any interest in them, but I've heard they still exists, and once i saw its webpage. -- Wllacer 09:25, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I have tagged the table with the evolution of support for independence per [WP:OR] concerns because it is extracted from a personal page (secondary at best, if not tertiary, source) which supports Catalan independentism (added [WP:POV] concern).
I paid a quick look at it and I remember, for example, that the percentages were in some cases calculated by the person in charge of the blog. While not necessarily having to be wrong, given the non compliant nature of this source with NPOV, the safest is to tag them until a better, academic, source is found.
This said, please note that I am assuming good faith from this table; that is why I am not removing it, just tagging it. Mountolive all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair 19:41, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Looks like this hasnt been properly understood. The ICPS source is fine. But there is a secondary source (which is a personal page supporting Catalan independentism, by any means compliant with NPOV) which is the one actually summarizing the original (and valid) source. Since the original source is valid, I won't ask for this graph removal, but, all the same, since the secondary source (the personal blog) is the one summarizing and elaborating the primary data, an WP:OR still remains. In other words, to remove the OR concern, it would be needed the ICPS itself (or any other given scholarly institution) to be the one elaborating the graph, not a likely to be biased individual. Mountolive all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair 11:37, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
In my opinion, it is not the best option to have a self-proclaimed Catalan independentist to elaborate the relative graph on Catalan independentism. It's a matter of NPOV and, if you may, even a matter of style.
SO you expect the catalan independence cause article is written only by non-independentist people, which aren´t obviously biased? We should value each and every contribution, specially those that refer to facts.
How do we know that he hasnt rounded up data? who is controlling that he's been perfectly true to the data he has summarized? No one will bother to do so (at least I won't). I think these are legitimate concerns which should be covered by the OR tag.
In contrast, I have no problem to admit the value of the table and that it could surpass the concerns associated to it. Therefore I won't insist on this tag for the time being.
Mountolive
all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair
14:18, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Image:No soc espanyol.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 00:51, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I was surprised about the last edition in the article where it is stated that according to last polls the support to independence by Catalans is no more that one fifth of the population. Well, I am not sure that estimation is accurate for two reasons: (1) it is referred to an article in The Economist where, as far as I can see, no source for such a poll is cited, and (2) according to other sources the estimation is much higher [2]. In fact, higher estimations are even referred afterwards in the article, which makes it inconsistent. We should find a better wording and sourcing about that particular issue.-- Carles Noguera ( talk) 15:37, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
This is outdated claim.
I agree in that raw data is definitely the best option. I have made some tweaks, basically, salvaging The Economist source, cut-pasting a paragraph to relocate it in a more proper section, removing the outdated graph and some remarks which I think are worth noting. Your turn, please :) Mountolive fedeli alla linea 02:48, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
just to reduce their lenght, do you think trimming the tables would be a good idea? for example, in the ICPS series, we could use data from every 5 years rather than year by year. Then we would have results from the years 1992, 1997, 2002 and 2007. We could do something similar to the other table and get rid of some months.
The idea is just to make the whole thing more appealing to the eye and readable. Mountolive fedeli alla linea 03:07, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Separatism is a pejorative term, and should not be used in an article such as this. It is unfortunately all too common in the press, although it is clearly a biased name for it.-- MacRusgail ( talk) 19:19, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm about seven years too late to this discussion, but, even accepting that "separatism" is perjorative per se, there is no actual reason why a non-perjorative title has to be chosen. The wiki rule is to chose a common name regardless of whether it has negative connotations. There is no way to talk about the Brighton hotel bombing that doesn't sound bad, because it was bad. Now, as luck would have it, "Catalan independence" is almost as commonly used as "Catalan separatism" and avoided the edit-warring that using "separatism" would have caused, so it was chosen, but had it not been available "separatism" would have been the obvious choice. Euqally, there is no reason why "separatism" should be banned from this page. FOARP ( talk) 13:41, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
I suggest to revise some of the things that had been writing down below the polls of people supporting the independence of Catalonia and people being agains it.
Just down below the last poll where you read that the last poll is 45% and 32% you can read that 51% of people in Catalonia is against independence?
Could you clear more that?
Carlos Manrique Pérez — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.131.14.241 ( talk) 17:34, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
I went to the source number [22] sand the figures there do not match the ones stated in the article. Page 109 of document [4] states that instead of
2011[22] 41.4 22.9 26.5 9.2
should be
2011[22] 43.7 25.1 22.3 8.9
Morover I agree with the problem pointed out by Carlos Manrique Pérez. The Figure of 51% refers to one poll of 2007, and the independence option in Catalonia has been changing in these last years (check the tables to see Pro has increased, Against has decreased and Abstain or Undecided has gown). How should I proceed? I can change the wrong figures and rephrase the sentence go 51% to a sentence that explain this rapid changes from 2007 to 2011. Enric ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Enric) [26/01/2011] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Enric ( talk • contribs) 12:14, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
What is the difference (if any) between this article and the Catalan nationalism article? If none, can the two articles be merged? Gfcvoice ( talk) 05:56, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
"Independentism"? This does not really sound like an English word - we normally simply say "Catalan independence". See Scottish independence, Welsh independence, Taiwan independence, etc. Do a Google search for "independentism" and it comes back to this page - the newspapers, academia etc. all use the phrase "Catalan independence". — Preceding unsigned comment added by FOARP ( talk • contribs) 06:30, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
Anyone got a problem with changing it to "Catalan Independence?" FOARP ( talk) 13:14, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved. FOARP ( talk) 11:48, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
Catalan independentism → Catalan independence –
"Independentism" is not an English word, and is not the word commonly used to describe support for independence for Catalonia or the Catalan countries. Instead, Catalan independence or separatism is the commonly used term.
Here's the Google News hits:
"Catan Independentism" - 1 hit (a blog written by a Spanish-speaker)
"Catalan Independence" - 4,420 hits including major outlets
"Catalan Separatism" - 5,530 hits including major outlets
Clearly this page needs a new title which reflects proper English usage - independence or separatist both appear viable candidates. "Separatist" has been suggested and rejected several times, so if it is not acceptible, I suggest Catalan independence, similar to Welsh independence, Scottish independence and Taiwan independence. FOARP ( talk) 11:30, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
The picture whose description says Catalonia is not Spain tagged on a wall in the suburbs of Madrid is not right. It makes nonsense being near Madrid. According to the picture's description itself in Commons, it is taken in Catalonia. The text must be Catalonia is not Spain tagged on a wall in Catalonia, for instance. Enric.enwiki ( talk) 17:26, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
Maybe I'm just blind but I don't seem to see the relevant discussion on what's not neutral about this article. I could see why this article would be controversial but isn't it necessary for those with NPOV concerns to talk about it in the talk section? -- 69.126.210.25 ( talk) 17:53, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
I think this article should be renamed "Catalan independentism" because it is about the political movement, not about a hypothetical future independence of this territory. In addition that is the term used in both the Catalan-language and Spanish-language wikipedias. However the article with that title already exists, which makes the move technically complicated. I would therefore like to make sure that nobody objects to the move before requesting it. -- Hispalois ( talk) 07:10, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
November 9 the Catalans are voting in a referendum about the EU; while Spain is tired of rightwing conservatives AND the old left wing, they seem to go towards new leftwing party Podemos. Meanwhile, Catalunia will be more rightwing conservative if it will be independent. This is the general opinion in the streets of Tarragona and Barcelona. Basvossen ( talk)Basvossen Basvossen ( talk)
The reason for not NPOV compliance: it would be appropriate to include Against-independence public figures, as it is also a significant viewpoint (see WP:DUE)). It is also easy to find references for against-independece catalan public figures. Otherwise, only one side receives attention and creates a partial, therefore not neutral, point of view. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.84.69.83 ( talk) 01:04, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Have there really been so few recent polls? Do only the CEO and CIS do regular polls on this subject?
The polling section has a lot of very old polls, I think it could do with being trimmed and made concise, like for example the [ [5]] article (and even that section could be trimmed a bit) - 95.44.48.43 ( talk) 21:50, 15 September 2015 (UTC)