This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Cataclysmic pole shift hypothesis article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | It is requested that a geological diagram or diagrams be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Specific illustrations, plots or diagrams can be requested at the
Graphic Lab. For more information, refer to discussion on this page and/or the listing at Wikipedia:Requested images. |
A question to the author(s) :
When you say : "These theories are currently not accepted by the scientific community..."
do you mean just the two theories mentioned right before that phrase, or are you including Mr. Hapgood´s theory too ?
Thanks in advance.
This page seems to me to be biased, making incorrect assumption's, and directly contradictary to another wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagnetic_reversal
Seeing as how there is absolutely zero references or citations in this article, I'm adding an {{
unreferenced}} tag at the top. --
R.Lange
10:55, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
The government has their escape routes, and space ships to be able to lift them off the planet for 20 hours easily, but what about the rest of us? We need to build a fleet of ships that can remove all species off the planet, a modern day Noah’s arc.
Maybe it's just me, but I'm not sure how this contributes to the article and it smells of conspiracy paranoia
There is no such thing as a fact jack. True wisdom can only be obtained through understanding this principle. response to below----
Not a conspiracy theory, just simply the facts.
I wrote that statement after the rest of the information I had placed in this section. The concept I was trying to put forth is that, if a pole shift may happen at some point, and we can survive it very easily by removing ourselves from the face of the planet, would it not be a good idea to build an excape route for ourselves?. It is a fact that scientists have reported their information to the governments and the reality is, they (the ones in government control) have the means to survive, they have the ability to get off the planet, if it should happen. We do not. That is simply the facts. -- My Name Is 3 20:25, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't know who my name is 3 is, but they might need to contact Centropolis about some royalties. Of course, how many times has Emmerich been accused of stealing ideas anyway? Lesliejas ( talk) 19:06, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Spaceships? The US has 3 space shuttles, each of which requires enormous logistical work to prepare for flight and each of which carries only a few people. Even the top of the executive branch - the President, Vice President, and Cabinet - couldn't get off the planet in a hurry. Those are facts; what you wrote has no basis in reality. Fasrad 04:03, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
It is possible, if we act to build a excape plan for any natural disaster that may fall upon earth at any point, from pole shifts to meteors. We all know it to be true, but the intersting thing is why we are not doing it. If it is such a simple task, a simple insurancce plan, for all our technological advances, why dont we have personal space craft? I discuss this and other subjects in my book which you can read online for free (in its current unedited form - at www.thebookoffact.netfirms.com
Why here are so much crackpots and simply annoying idiots? This article is next to USELESS. I want to read about scientific theories about pole shift, not paranoia kook crap.
I'm not much knowledgeable in the subject, but I think that TPW does not propose that the actual axis of rotation has changed, but rather that the whole group of continents wandered conjointly in a upper layer, independently of the axis of rotation, which remains stable; as if there was a second, nearly perpendicular, axis, with slower rotation speed, and affecting only the external layers of the Earth, so that the magnetic poles (whose "cause" is deeper into the planet, with a much more immense volume) do not wander together with the surface, resulting in climatic changes and in the geologic record of "fake" magnetic pole reversals. An analogy would be to spin an egg or an spheroid object in a table, putting it to spin initially in the "taller" position; it would tend to slowly move itself in order to the equator be the part with the largest diameter, but at the same time it spins in a stable, always nearly vertical, rotation axis. -- Extremophile 17:04, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
WTF?????! Too much Angels and Demons there, buddy. Muuc ( talk) 02:10, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
This may sound silly, and I'm pretty uninformed but I'd like to explore the idea of a connection between the Illuminati/Masons and a physical polar shift? Has anyone ever written or heard anything like that?
I don't know that much about the group, but I believe I read that The Illuminated grew out of Egyptian society and, through many many years, into Germany then Brittan and, of course, if you believe the hype, to America and throughout the world, and in high places.
I'm no expert but if I were to try to think of a civilization prior to ours (who still don't really know if a polar shift is coming) that would understand the physical workings of the solar system it's the ancient Egyptians. Later you'd have to add the Druids and then of course Modern societies.
The Illuminati are said to have followed that same lineage and said to have preserved a great deal of exclusive information though strict tradition. If what they say about the Illuminati/Masons were true and a secret society that old, secretive and studious exists, than you'd have to consider the amount and type of combined knowledge they've gathered over thousands of years, from diverse, evolving cultures, all amassing into a knowledge base that could easily contain information on something such as a polar shift, global warming, you name it.
All the Illuminati theories I've seen seem to point to the groups New World Order taking hold very soon with signs visible in the news every day. Another group (who, sadly, I can't think of a connection with) who would understand astrology/astronomy at a predictable level were the Mians. Coincidentally, their calendar, which counts down, rather than up like ours, ends in 2012.
Almost all religions, including those used to build all the Illuminati rituals, speak of the world ending in fire, if global warming is the reality it seems to be and you believe the charts, most places on earth are going to become uninhabitable, burning waste-lands in the near future. If the polar shift is predicted to be happening soon and the massive climate change is slotted for shortly after there may only be 2 survivable places on earth, the poles. I read that after the polar shift it's predicted that the Northern pole area will be positioned around the US Canadian border (is that correct?) and the southern pole area would barely include the southern tip of Africa, leaving North America as the only inhabitable area.
The theories surrounding the Bavarian Illuminati lead to the idea that they formed as a secret society around the time Europeans took control of North America (of course, simply taking it from the aboriginal people without any complaints from the rest of the world). They are said to own the Federal Reserve and the USA, the majority of Presidents have been either members or connected. Perhaps it's a stretch, but it all seems to add up to me.
If you were a member of a secret group that had knowledge of these things, a group that happened to grow to be as powerful as they seem to have, then what do you think that group would work towards?
I think survival, inclusion, control of the last available place that would support life. You would have to devise a way to govern life in a hostile environment because even at the poles it would be no picnic after the earth going through a change like that.
Billions would die, and if the billions knew for sure it was coming it would be hell on earth, people... the world would go crazy, it would be a living hell, as it will be if (when) the shift and climate change occur. There's no way they'd allow us to know, it would be irresponsible of them to do so. Perhaps that's why they are so secretive and symbolic. As global politics change and the stories about the Masons seem to be more and more realistic; as climate change and polar shift look more and more possible, I think there's reason to suspect a connection. I don’t think the timing is coincidental. The entire thing may simply the somewhat ugly story of how humanity will survive, sadly, putting the majority of us on the losing end.
Just a thought. What do you think?
--bigz--mikez-- 11:21, 7 March 2007 (UTC)BM
Hey. I don't want to remove anything from the article without discussing it first but, having listened to Clive Cussler's Atlantis Found, I believe it has nothing to do with polar shifts. The book 'Polar Shift' probably does, I don't know yet, but 'Atlantis Found's doomsday is a global warming and raising of the sea levels and thus should probably be cited under 'Global Warming Cultural References' and not here.
May I firstly say that this article leaves a lot to be desired in terms of referencing and even structure. It could also be written/worded better (in my opinion). The "...at the time of Jesus..." line is absurd. I'm not here to argue religion, but 1. by saying that you alienate the audience, especially those of other cultures/religions who may not be aware when Jesus was around and 2. there isn't even a definitive date for when Jesus lived, so you simply make that statement useless. On that note, I'm altering that line to 0 C.E. Aristeaus 09:14, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree, but -to be precise- there's no such 0 AD, but 1 AD (just like there's no 0 Century). Sergio S.
See above -- Jack Zhang ( talk) 01:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I'm not a registered user on Wikipedia, but I was wondering about something and thought this would be the place to ask. Please forgive me if I'm not supposed to ask about this here. So, I was wondering, if a pole shift occours, would it effect Earth's tectonic plates in any way? Would it cause plates to move around, earthquakes and the like? Or, more specifically, set off a volcano like the Yellowstone Caldera? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.107.57.187 ( talk) 01:30, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
2012. It WILL happen. Doug is right. Massive earthquakes will rip through almost every area on the planet, having enourmous effects on and killing millions. Visit http://survive2012.com for great facts about 2012 and Doomsday. Muuc ( talk) 02:08, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Doug is joking (or at least I hope he is!). The Earth's axis is constantly moving with respect to the sun due to precession, and the rigid sphere of the Earth is always moving with respect to its rotational axis (called true polar wander). There are changes in global and regional climate from this (see Milankovitch cycles for the importance of orbital parameters on the ice ages), but nothing major or cataclysmic would happen. If the Earth's axis (for no apparent reason) decided to point towards the sun, then one side of the Earth would have day all of the time. This would hugely impact climate, atmospheric and ocean circulation, and the interactions between the solar wind and the magnetic field. It would be pretty catastrophic. The only physical mechanism (at least that I can think of) to change the pole like this is via the oblique impact of a body that has a comparable (though perhaps smaller) diameter than the Earth. Fortunately, the Earth has swept clear its orbital path, and even if somehow one of these things hit us, we would die anyway so there would be no worry about the shifted pole. Awickert ( talk) 00:28, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
This looks like OR and clearly POV pushing a particular website -- a personal website which is clearly not what Wikipedia considers a 'reliable source' - Muuc, see WP:RELIABLE. What you have written here is your own opinion, what is called 'Original Research' and again please read Wikipedia:No original research if you want to add to an article or even create one. Nor really should you be pushing the website on this talk page. I think this section should be removed entirely, and also note that it is actually not about 'Pole shift theory'.
What the hell has happened to science? Psychology and pseudoscience have raped the word 'theory.' Title should be "Polar Shift Hypothesis" THANKS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.113.251.120 ( talk) 01:36, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I skimmed the article, and can't tell whether pole shift is a change in the orientation of the rotational axis (i.e., due to its precession, or some hypothesized larger change), or whether it is about true polar wander (the axis stays in the same place, but the Earth rotates slowly and freely from it such that, for example, London ends up at the rotational north pole without any movement of the axis of rotation). Which is it? Awickert ( talk) 03:17, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
'Pole Shift'
by John White, Editor of Future Science
Doubleday edition published 1980
A.R.E. Press, 7th Printing, December 1988
ISBN: 87604-162-4
provides a comprehensive discussion from many points of view on the subject of pole shift.
submitted by janus51046 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Janus51046 ( talk • contribs) 03:11, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
As currently written, this article presents a series of hypotheses (that the text gradually shifts toward the status of a scientific "theory") about pole shift. It presents very little discussion about why such a pole shift is thought unlikely at present. For the purposes of balance and neutrality, I think both sides should be presented. Thanks.— RJH ( talk) 15:56, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
I think the following entry is literally correct, but not in the sense implied by this article:
I can not reach the Boston Globe article to be certain, but I believe it is likely based on the following source:
{{
cite journal}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)What the authors are describing is a vertical deformation of poles by a few millimetres that occurs on a seasonal basis. Thanks.— RJH ( talk) 22:35, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps there is a scientific analysis to wiki articles except maybe polar tilts and pole shifts are two different things. 2004 tsunami and Japan in March were pole-tilts to a precursor pole-shift. More analytical then the mars colonization artical and true! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.42.105 ( talk) 14:50, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
The following statement:
differs from the various sources that discuss his proposal in Revolutions de la Mer, Deluges Periodics. His proposal was that ice ages were caused by precession of the Earth's poles, rather than a 180° flip of the planet. [1] Unless there is a source for the text, I think it should be taken as an incorrect interpretation and removed.— RJH ( talk) 20:18, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
Joseph Adhémar's hypothesis concerns only astronomic causes of climate change and has nothing to do with crustal displacement of even continental drift. Though Adhemar was one of the first to speculate on external forces causing widespread change on Earth, I agree the reference to his theory may be misleading, if not irrelevant to the subject, and I think should be removed altogether. Kohai357 ( talk) 18:42, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
This article puts a lot of weight on the hypothesis of Charles Hapgood, while providing only a single reference. This reference states that, "Hapgood created this theory by documenting three Earth crust displacements in the last 100,000 years." However, it also states that, "Hapgood revised key parts of his thinking because his calculations convinced him that the mass of the ice cap on Antartica could not destabilize the Earth's rotation." I checked through Hapgood's 1970 The Path of the Pole, but that work didn't appear to argue in favor of the ice mass causing a polar shift. It also makes no mention of Adhemar's work, and so I'm dubious about that as well.
It appears that this article is heavily slanted in favor of a particular hypothesis while discarding anything to the contrary.— RJH ( talk) 17:41, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Im just going to ask a question. Based on mathematics, And from that has been found in fossil remains and ELE's from geological time charts . now the question ( would the mag. pole shifts create massive stresses on the con. shelves ? ) And if so . (would it not accure over a long peiord of time) And ending in a grand event? thank you for your time ,. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.56.146.243 ( talk) 23:03, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Recent papers on the topic seem to focus on mantle convection models during supercontinent assembly and dispersal. There's a decent looking paper here on the topic, but I don't know enough about geophysics to do it justice.
{{
cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter |month=
ignored (
help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)Is anybody interested? Thanks.— RJH ( talk) 21:46, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
I think don't belong according to our guidelines at WP:ALSO. The argument for them is "These are relevant since most polar shift theory relies on eveidence of global Deluge for oceans "slosh" in shift @ 9th mill. BC, 4th mill missed)" but they don't mention the pole shift hypothesis and if the arguments are used by adherents, fine, use some reliable sources to include them in the article. Otherwise what we have is an unusual example of original research and adding these as links is not helpful to our readers. Thanks. Dougweller ( talk) 09:45, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
(OD) I have no connections (that I'm aware of) to anyone on either side of this discussion, and the links to me seem quite superfluous, especially the last two. Linking to an entire millenium seems a bit much. Dayewalker ( talk) 07:41, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
If all parties are agreable, I am willing to open this request and act as mediator. -- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) ( talk) 17:10, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
Granite07 ( talk) 20:00, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
(OD) To clarify, the quoted comments above are mine, not Dougwellers. I'll reiterate what DW says above though, Skype (or any other form of off-wiki discussion) is not a matter of consensus. It's completely against Wikipedia policy. If someone wants to suggest it on a policy board, that's their decision, but I won't be taking part in any off-wiki discussions unless they're approved by WP. Dayewalker ( talk) 22:53, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) I was away for a few days and was unable to comment. Granite07 has left a message on my talk page asking my assistance here again. Now as I see it, pretty much everyone is keen to put the incident in the past, agree to be polite and work together based on consensus. My personal feeling is that if everyone can agree to this, we can avoid a formal mediation case. If not, then mediation would need to address why this is not possible, which would change the focus somewhat of the case as it has been requested. -- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) ( talk) 12:23, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Regarding [3] I am (perhaps somewhat surprisingly) of granite07's opinion: these links do in deed belong, though it would be better to work them into the article. All (or at least some of) this nonsense is of a piece, and well worth linking together. I'm going to have a go at doing this William M. Connolley ( talk) 17:57, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
— RJH ( talk) 16:51, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
As I noted above, I'm actually professionally knowledgeable about true polar wander. I was going to put this on my back burner, but this intense discussion has led me to think that it should be on the front. My off-the-top-of-the-head checklist is:
Awickert ( talk) 08:21, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
The page starts by saying that this is a hypothesis in the change of the locations of the poles. OK.
It then goes on to saying that it is only true polar wander. OK.
It says that this is less accepted than geomagnetic reversal. WRONG.
OK: Pause. So once it becomes the same thing as true polar wander, it stops being a wacko hypothesis and starts being mainstream science. If this is all the article is, it should be merged into the real science of true polar wander and be done away with. But if it is about the crazy speculation, then pole shift is a hypothesis and could be either true polar wander or a change in the rotational axis with respect to the sun. In that case, the article should be changed to reflect this.
So I really can't start to touch the article until I know which of these the article is. I'm going for the latter pseudoscience category myself.
Your opinions, please? Awickert ( talk) 17:54, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
...including psychic readings, often linked to other beliefs such as Tollmann's hypothetical..., often is too strong a word, please change it to possibly. Granite07 ( talk) 21:40, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
I AM A STUDENT OF11 CLASS AND IN THIS SUDJECT I AM NOT SO INELLEGENT BUT I THINK DUE TO HUMAN DISASTER OR NATURAL EVENT HUMAN COMMUNITY $ OTHER ORGANISUM WILL EXTINCT BECAUSE OF THE CHANGES OF POLES —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.168.252.108 ( talk) 14:42, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
The following entry was tagged as unsourced since September:
I did a search but couldn't find a suitable source. In any event, it seems pretty unlikely to have that effect without having sufficient energy to simultaneously destroy the lithosphere. Cf. giant impact hypothesis.— RJH ( talk) 18:37, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Hello, I just like to point on the fact, that in the 1956 Book "The Calendar of Tiahuanaco" by H.S. Bellamy and P. Allan (p.30) the theory of earth crust shifting was also part of Hoerbigers theory. Maybe this should be inserted in the text of the article.-- 87.152.241.131 ( talk) 14:44, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Here's a quote from the head of the article:
Among the scientific community, the evidence shows that no rapid shifts in the Earth's pole have occurred during the last 200 million years.[2] True polar wander is known to occur, but only at rates of 1° per million years or less.[3] The last rapid shift in the poles may have occurred 800 million years ago..
So which one is it? 200 million or 800 million?-- Namaste@ ? 09:43, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Hi,
Looking at this discussion page, it's clear a lot has been done to clean up this article over time. I have only two minor points to raise.In the "recent conjectures" section, is the following text:
"In 1997, Richard W. Noone published the novel 5/5/2000, ICE: The Ultimate Disaster"
I am currently reading this book, which is how I wound up on this page. While it contains considerable speculative data, it is not a work of fiction in the traditional sense (ie, no characters, plotline,etc.) The Library of Congress has classed it under BF1999 - occult sciences, not fiction or literature. Therefore the descriptor "novel" is inappropriate, and should be removed.
Its original date of publication is listed as 1986, so this fact is also listed inaccurately.
Otherwise, thanks for the clarifying article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.83.198.235 ( talk) 01:09, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
I think the sentence That is, either the planet remains stationary but its spin axis moves, the spin axis remains fixed and the planet (or layers of it) move with respect to it, or a combination of these two occur. is redundant, its content having already been given in the preceding sentence. It is also ambiguous because it does not mention the reference with respect to which the planet (or the spin axis) remain stationary or fixed. I, therefore, recommend dropping it. Nfr-Maat ( talk) 04:09, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
The final sentences of the second paragraph are: "Between approximately 790 and 810 million years ago, when the supercontinent Rodinia existed, two geologically-rapid phases of true polar wander may have occurred. In each of these, the Earth rotated ~55°.[4]"
This claim cites the following paper: http://gsabulletin.gsapubs.org/content/118/9-10/1099 (readable openly at http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~jkirschvink/pdfs/maloof_svaltpw.pdf), which suggests several lines of evidence used to provide the hypothesis that a true polar wandering event was a cause of such observations. There was no direct evidence of this, however a true polar wandering event provides one possible explanation. Language indicating such should be used in presenting that paper's findings in this article. The language used in the current article does not meet that standard, and suggests that this hypothesis is an established fact.
A summary article summarizing this paper, while pointing out this is a "best fit for [the] current evidence, [but] not a certainty", is at: [ [4]]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Klassica ( talk • contribs) 07:02, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Greetings,
I would Like to point out that the author of the article is incorrect at saying this is only a theory, it is a scientific fact that the Earths magnetic poles do completely shift at I believe it is about every 500 thousand years or so. this has been shown from ice cores taken from the Antarctic Region... What is theory is how these shifts occur, do they shift rapidly, immediately, or over an extended period of time... the complete shift was shown to have occurred approx 750 thousand years ago and the previous one to that 500 thousand years ago... Pole wobble is also a fact and occurs more often... right now, pole the poles are shifting about 40 miles a year, it is not known if this is just a wobble or a slow shift as the movement is steadily moving away from the current north-south orientation... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.172.154.78 ( talk) 18:14, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
sorry wanted to update some info... the shifts occure approx 300 - 500 thousand years...
also wanted to site an official source to show scientific fact of this:
http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/lookingatearth/29dec_magneticfield.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.172.154.78 ( talk) 18:32, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
In the sentence "Velikovsky supported his work with historical records, although his studies were mainly ridiculed by the scientific community." what is the value of mentioning that his studies were ridiculed by the scientific community? In no way is this a good reason to reject Velikovsky's position because it merely shows that he was a victim of an ad hominem attack perpetrated by some individuals resting on the support of the argument from authority. Given that this article is intended to examine the veracity of the hypothesis at hand and not the struggles of its proponents, the mention of ridicule by the scientific community should be removed. Phiborjam ( talk) 23:09, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
In the paragraph:
"However, in his subsequent work The Path of the Pole, Hapgood conceded Einstein's point that the weight of the polar ice would be insufficient to bring about a polar shift. Instead, Hapgood argued that the forces that caused the shifts in the crust must be located below the surface. He had no satisfactory explanation for how this could occur."
The last sentence should be removed as it is POV. The term 'satisfactory' in this context without giving any empirical criteria that needs to be met, implies a reaction by the reader to Hapgood's explanation; he or she was not satisfied by his explanation. Instead the editor should present Hapgood's explanation(s) and let the Wikipedia reader decide whether or not it constitutes a satisfactory explanation.
Phiborjam (
talk)
23:27, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
In the 'Recent Conjectures' section, the first sentence states: "The field has attracted pseudoscientific authors offering a variety of evidence, including psychic readings." The term 'pseudoscientific' is an ad hominem label that is epistemologically irrelevant to any arguments or reasoning made by the authors listed in the 'Recent Conjectures' section. The listed authors may or may not have provided any good scientific reasons for believing in their theories, but that can be assessed by anyone that reads their works. Phiborjam ( talk) 23:46, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
There is fine line between promoting an agenda and supporting a position. I think I've found in this article an excellent example of promoting an agenda. In this case there is clearly a group of editors bent on promoting the position that certain authors deserve the label 'psuedoscientific.' While promoting a position is supposed to be against the principles of Wikipedia, I'm starting to wonder if an exception is being made for those that are promoting the skeptics agenda. I thought the purpose of an encyclopedia, of which Wikipedia attempts to portray itself as such, is to present facts and information, and where necessary an explanation of those facts and information in a manner that the reader can acquire knowledge. However, drawing conclusions about the nature of particular individuals (authors) in one article based on a description of a practice(pseudoscience) presented in an entirely different article veers away from the objective presentation of information and into the presentation and promotion of a particular point of view. This is especially true with the case at hand given that no citation or evidence has been presented to support the position that any given author fits the category of 'pseudoscientific.' In fact there is a great deal of vagueness about who the editor is referring to as pseudoscientific. Does the term necessarily include all those authors listed in the section that the term is used? If so why is that not stated? I'm sure many different hypothesis, theories, conjectures whether accepted by academics or not have still attracted a large variety of characters that would fit into a myriad of different categories that are listed as entries on Wikipedia. Does that mean every time we find an author that an editor thinks fits category X that wrote about subject Y, an entry needs to be made stating that subject Y has attracted an author who is an X? To me this all seems like I'm fighting against childish name calling, especially when the authors in question I'm sure have never identified themselves as being, nor would they ever like being called, a pseudoscientific author. So let us leave the conclusions about authors, and any possible name-calling to the reader and keep this encyclopedia a professional, serious place for objective learning. Quarky Gluon ( talk) 05:33, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
In case of Pole shift hypothesis, the application "pseudoscientific" depends upon the specific author being discussed. In case of Dr. Charles Hapgood, the term "pseudoscientific" is clearly inappropriate. He argued for the validity of Pole shift hypothesis somewhat within the accepted context of what was known about Pleistocene geology, geochronology, tectonics, and other aspects of Earth Science in the 1950s. However, some later authors, i.e. Hancock and Rand Flem-Ath in their arguments for the Pole shift hypothesis can be reasonable regarded to be "pseudoscientific" as they make their case by completely ignoring tan enormous accumulation of knowledge about basic Earth processes, i.e. plate tectonics; Quaternary paleoenvironmental, paleoclimatological, and palevegetation changes; Quaternary paleomagnetism; glacial processes and ice sheet prehistory; and basic geology that readily refute their ideas. Instead, they cherry pick the material, which they cite, often form popular nonscientific sources, and spin-doctor them to support their ideas. Both authors are classic "Cafeteria Catastrophists." They accept or reject data, papers, interpretations, and arguments in the way that a person selects or rejects food at a cafeteria based on either how tasteful or distasteful the food is. If something supports their ideas, they accept it and use it in their arguments. If something is "distasteful" in that it contradicts or refutes their ideas they reject and ignore it in their arguments. This is clearly a pseudoscientific way of arguing for a specific hypothesis. Their books would likely get and "F" in any undergraduate geology or geomorphology course. In the case of the Pole shift hypothesis, there are authors, which the scientific community agree are pseudoscientific in the manner in which they make their arguments for such an event. Garrett Fagan, i.e. Antarctic Farce, and others have written about them in various articles in papers at Ma'at papers. This web site has been reviewed in Archaeology Magazine in the Seductions of Pseudoarchaeology: Pseudoscience in Cyberspace. Paul H. ( talk) 15:02, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Why aren't radical and sudden changes to the pole orientation a violation of conservation of angular momentum (except in the case of encountering another large body so that transfer of angular momentum can occur)?
This doesn't appear correct to me. Crustal displacement and pole shift obviously does relate to plate tectonics and therefore the principles behind continental drift (also once considered a ludicrous concept). The new discovery of an "ultra-hard layer of rock within Earth’s lower mantle" may provide the mechanism that's currently missing in the pole shift hypothesis. [Nature Geoscience[ [5]]: Slab stagnation in the shallow lower mantle linked to an increase in mantle viscosity] Ward Arminius ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 02:00, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
> From 1982 to 2005, the pole drifted southeast toward northern Labrador
Is it written about the north geographic pole? But how it can drift anywhere but southward? Where "sotheast from the north pole" is supposed to be? Hellerick ( talk) 09:35, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Pole shift hypothesis. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:15, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
This page seems like it's mostly describing deprecated ideas and modern crankery - surely "pole shift" should redirect to the mainstream notion of geomagnetic reversal? Twin Bird ( talk) 01:57, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
@ Doug Weller: I agree that Chan Thomas's writings are nutty, but his work has a little bit of traction out there in conspiracy theory land, largely because it was filed by the CIA. Is it really so off the wall that can't even be mentioned? As it stands, the article has all sorts of ridiculous claims about Atlantis, Mu and worlds in collision. Also - minor point - there are two or three other publications that I could find by Emerson House: a second Chan Thomas effort, and a couple of other "alternative" texts. Ewen ( talk) 05:19, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
The following statement appears in the article: "Pole shift hypotheses are not the same as geomagnetic reversal, the periodic reversal of the Earth's magnetic field (effectively switching the north and south magnetic poles)." I suggest that this be further elaborated upon. As of present, neither this article nor the one on geomagnetic reversal makes a significant effort to contrast the two theories. One is a mainstream scientific theory, while the other is a fringe, or pseudoscientific notion. Yet, to a casual observer, they seem very similar. An explanation as to what distinguishes these two from each other would be educationally valuable. Wwkirk ( talk) 14:09, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
The article says "In the early 1960s, Chan Thomas wrote a book titled The Adam and Eve Story and attempted to have it published by Emerson House in Los Angeles. Soon after publishing the full issue, the CIA classified his book for 50 years.[17] An FOIA lawsuit was filed against the CIA to release the book.[citation needed] In 2013, the CIA released a "cleansed" version of the original book (50 pages out of 240 original pages).[17] The major difference to Hapgood's claims is that, according to Chan Thomas, the crust moved back to its original position within a relatively short time."
I believe this is incorrect, but don't have a good source to justify that belief, so haven't modified the article. In general, only documents authored by members of the government are classified by US intelligence agencies, and it would be unconstitutional and bizarre for the CIA to 'classify' this book and pull it from circulation.
In particular, the document was neither 'cleansed' by the CIA, nor did they prevent it from being circulated. This library record indicates that it was published and included in library collections in 1961.
This Reddit thread has a much more plausible explanation: [2] - in brief, that someone that the CIA had an interest in owned a copy of it, it was kept for some reason, and that copy was released in response to an FOIA request for details about that person.
-- Edyoung0 ( talk) 05:19, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
References
I may be wrong but the most recent studies on polar shift seem to show a very rapid movement ongoing. I wonder why this information is not included. Nor are any of the studies that support this theory. You should make the case for both arguments. The only thing about this that is pseudoscience is what you call it. 2600:1700:1471:6AB0:80E5:8792:8898:F2F0 ( talk) 03:29, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
This article needs to better clarify the difference between cataclysmic pole shift and earth crust displacement. Johne White's book, Pole Shift, is a good place to start because he explains the different variations of cataclysmic pole shift and earth crust displacement. Paul H. ( talk) 00:41, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Cataclysmic pole shift hypothesis article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | It is requested that a geological diagram or diagrams be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Specific illustrations, plots or diagrams can be requested at the
Graphic Lab. For more information, refer to discussion on this page and/or the listing at Wikipedia:Requested images. |
A question to the author(s) :
When you say : "These theories are currently not accepted by the scientific community..."
do you mean just the two theories mentioned right before that phrase, or are you including Mr. Hapgood´s theory too ?
Thanks in advance.
This page seems to me to be biased, making incorrect assumption's, and directly contradictary to another wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagnetic_reversal
Seeing as how there is absolutely zero references or citations in this article, I'm adding an {{
unreferenced}} tag at the top. --
R.Lange
10:55, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
The government has their escape routes, and space ships to be able to lift them off the planet for 20 hours easily, but what about the rest of us? We need to build a fleet of ships that can remove all species off the planet, a modern day Noah’s arc.
Maybe it's just me, but I'm not sure how this contributes to the article and it smells of conspiracy paranoia
There is no such thing as a fact jack. True wisdom can only be obtained through understanding this principle. response to below----
Not a conspiracy theory, just simply the facts.
I wrote that statement after the rest of the information I had placed in this section. The concept I was trying to put forth is that, if a pole shift may happen at some point, and we can survive it very easily by removing ourselves from the face of the planet, would it not be a good idea to build an excape route for ourselves?. It is a fact that scientists have reported their information to the governments and the reality is, they (the ones in government control) have the means to survive, they have the ability to get off the planet, if it should happen. We do not. That is simply the facts. -- My Name Is 3 20:25, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't know who my name is 3 is, but they might need to contact Centropolis about some royalties. Of course, how many times has Emmerich been accused of stealing ideas anyway? Lesliejas ( talk) 19:06, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Spaceships? The US has 3 space shuttles, each of which requires enormous logistical work to prepare for flight and each of which carries only a few people. Even the top of the executive branch - the President, Vice President, and Cabinet - couldn't get off the planet in a hurry. Those are facts; what you wrote has no basis in reality. Fasrad 04:03, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
It is possible, if we act to build a excape plan for any natural disaster that may fall upon earth at any point, from pole shifts to meteors. We all know it to be true, but the intersting thing is why we are not doing it. If it is such a simple task, a simple insurancce plan, for all our technological advances, why dont we have personal space craft? I discuss this and other subjects in my book which you can read online for free (in its current unedited form - at www.thebookoffact.netfirms.com
Why here are so much crackpots and simply annoying idiots? This article is next to USELESS. I want to read about scientific theories about pole shift, not paranoia kook crap.
I'm not much knowledgeable in the subject, but I think that TPW does not propose that the actual axis of rotation has changed, but rather that the whole group of continents wandered conjointly in a upper layer, independently of the axis of rotation, which remains stable; as if there was a second, nearly perpendicular, axis, with slower rotation speed, and affecting only the external layers of the Earth, so that the magnetic poles (whose "cause" is deeper into the planet, with a much more immense volume) do not wander together with the surface, resulting in climatic changes and in the geologic record of "fake" magnetic pole reversals. An analogy would be to spin an egg or an spheroid object in a table, putting it to spin initially in the "taller" position; it would tend to slowly move itself in order to the equator be the part with the largest diameter, but at the same time it spins in a stable, always nearly vertical, rotation axis. -- Extremophile 17:04, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
WTF?????! Too much Angels and Demons there, buddy. Muuc ( talk) 02:10, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
This may sound silly, and I'm pretty uninformed but I'd like to explore the idea of a connection between the Illuminati/Masons and a physical polar shift? Has anyone ever written or heard anything like that?
I don't know that much about the group, but I believe I read that The Illuminated grew out of Egyptian society and, through many many years, into Germany then Brittan and, of course, if you believe the hype, to America and throughout the world, and in high places.
I'm no expert but if I were to try to think of a civilization prior to ours (who still don't really know if a polar shift is coming) that would understand the physical workings of the solar system it's the ancient Egyptians. Later you'd have to add the Druids and then of course Modern societies.
The Illuminati are said to have followed that same lineage and said to have preserved a great deal of exclusive information though strict tradition. If what they say about the Illuminati/Masons were true and a secret society that old, secretive and studious exists, than you'd have to consider the amount and type of combined knowledge they've gathered over thousands of years, from diverse, evolving cultures, all amassing into a knowledge base that could easily contain information on something such as a polar shift, global warming, you name it.
All the Illuminati theories I've seen seem to point to the groups New World Order taking hold very soon with signs visible in the news every day. Another group (who, sadly, I can't think of a connection with) who would understand astrology/astronomy at a predictable level were the Mians. Coincidentally, their calendar, which counts down, rather than up like ours, ends in 2012.
Almost all religions, including those used to build all the Illuminati rituals, speak of the world ending in fire, if global warming is the reality it seems to be and you believe the charts, most places on earth are going to become uninhabitable, burning waste-lands in the near future. If the polar shift is predicted to be happening soon and the massive climate change is slotted for shortly after there may only be 2 survivable places on earth, the poles. I read that after the polar shift it's predicted that the Northern pole area will be positioned around the US Canadian border (is that correct?) and the southern pole area would barely include the southern tip of Africa, leaving North America as the only inhabitable area.
The theories surrounding the Bavarian Illuminati lead to the idea that they formed as a secret society around the time Europeans took control of North America (of course, simply taking it from the aboriginal people without any complaints from the rest of the world). They are said to own the Federal Reserve and the USA, the majority of Presidents have been either members or connected. Perhaps it's a stretch, but it all seems to add up to me.
If you were a member of a secret group that had knowledge of these things, a group that happened to grow to be as powerful as they seem to have, then what do you think that group would work towards?
I think survival, inclusion, control of the last available place that would support life. You would have to devise a way to govern life in a hostile environment because even at the poles it would be no picnic after the earth going through a change like that.
Billions would die, and if the billions knew for sure it was coming it would be hell on earth, people... the world would go crazy, it would be a living hell, as it will be if (when) the shift and climate change occur. There's no way they'd allow us to know, it would be irresponsible of them to do so. Perhaps that's why they are so secretive and symbolic. As global politics change and the stories about the Masons seem to be more and more realistic; as climate change and polar shift look more and more possible, I think there's reason to suspect a connection. I don’t think the timing is coincidental. The entire thing may simply the somewhat ugly story of how humanity will survive, sadly, putting the majority of us on the losing end.
Just a thought. What do you think?
--bigz--mikez-- 11:21, 7 March 2007 (UTC)BM
Hey. I don't want to remove anything from the article without discussing it first but, having listened to Clive Cussler's Atlantis Found, I believe it has nothing to do with polar shifts. The book 'Polar Shift' probably does, I don't know yet, but 'Atlantis Found's doomsday is a global warming and raising of the sea levels and thus should probably be cited under 'Global Warming Cultural References' and not here.
May I firstly say that this article leaves a lot to be desired in terms of referencing and even structure. It could also be written/worded better (in my opinion). The "...at the time of Jesus..." line is absurd. I'm not here to argue religion, but 1. by saying that you alienate the audience, especially those of other cultures/religions who may not be aware when Jesus was around and 2. there isn't even a definitive date for when Jesus lived, so you simply make that statement useless. On that note, I'm altering that line to 0 C.E. Aristeaus 09:14, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree, but -to be precise- there's no such 0 AD, but 1 AD (just like there's no 0 Century). Sergio S.
See above -- Jack Zhang ( talk) 01:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I'm not a registered user on Wikipedia, but I was wondering about something and thought this would be the place to ask. Please forgive me if I'm not supposed to ask about this here. So, I was wondering, if a pole shift occours, would it effect Earth's tectonic plates in any way? Would it cause plates to move around, earthquakes and the like? Or, more specifically, set off a volcano like the Yellowstone Caldera? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.107.57.187 ( talk) 01:30, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
2012. It WILL happen. Doug is right. Massive earthquakes will rip through almost every area on the planet, having enourmous effects on and killing millions. Visit http://survive2012.com for great facts about 2012 and Doomsday. Muuc ( talk) 02:08, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Doug is joking (or at least I hope he is!). The Earth's axis is constantly moving with respect to the sun due to precession, and the rigid sphere of the Earth is always moving with respect to its rotational axis (called true polar wander). There are changes in global and regional climate from this (see Milankovitch cycles for the importance of orbital parameters on the ice ages), but nothing major or cataclysmic would happen. If the Earth's axis (for no apparent reason) decided to point towards the sun, then one side of the Earth would have day all of the time. This would hugely impact climate, atmospheric and ocean circulation, and the interactions between the solar wind and the magnetic field. It would be pretty catastrophic. The only physical mechanism (at least that I can think of) to change the pole like this is via the oblique impact of a body that has a comparable (though perhaps smaller) diameter than the Earth. Fortunately, the Earth has swept clear its orbital path, and even if somehow one of these things hit us, we would die anyway so there would be no worry about the shifted pole. Awickert ( talk) 00:28, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
This looks like OR and clearly POV pushing a particular website -- a personal website which is clearly not what Wikipedia considers a 'reliable source' - Muuc, see WP:RELIABLE. What you have written here is your own opinion, what is called 'Original Research' and again please read Wikipedia:No original research if you want to add to an article or even create one. Nor really should you be pushing the website on this talk page. I think this section should be removed entirely, and also note that it is actually not about 'Pole shift theory'.
What the hell has happened to science? Psychology and pseudoscience have raped the word 'theory.' Title should be "Polar Shift Hypothesis" THANKS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.113.251.120 ( talk) 01:36, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I skimmed the article, and can't tell whether pole shift is a change in the orientation of the rotational axis (i.e., due to its precession, or some hypothesized larger change), or whether it is about true polar wander (the axis stays in the same place, but the Earth rotates slowly and freely from it such that, for example, London ends up at the rotational north pole without any movement of the axis of rotation). Which is it? Awickert ( talk) 03:17, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
'Pole Shift'
by John White, Editor of Future Science
Doubleday edition published 1980
A.R.E. Press, 7th Printing, December 1988
ISBN: 87604-162-4
provides a comprehensive discussion from many points of view on the subject of pole shift.
submitted by janus51046 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Janus51046 ( talk • contribs) 03:11, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
As currently written, this article presents a series of hypotheses (that the text gradually shifts toward the status of a scientific "theory") about pole shift. It presents very little discussion about why such a pole shift is thought unlikely at present. For the purposes of balance and neutrality, I think both sides should be presented. Thanks.— RJH ( talk) 15:56, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
I think the following entry is literally correct, but not in the sense implied by this article:
I can not reach the Boston Globe article to be certain, but I believe it is likely based on the following source:
{{
cite journal}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)What the authors are describing is a vertical deformation of poles by a few millimetres that occurs on a seasonal basis. Thanks.— RJH ( talk) 22:35, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps there is a scientific analysis to wiki articles except maybe polar tilts and pole shifts are two different things. 2004 tsunami and Japan in March were pole-tilts to a precursor pole-shift. More analytical then the mars colonization artical and true! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.42.105 ( talk) 14:50, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
The following statement:
differs from the various sources that discuss his proposal in Revolutions de la Mer, Deluges Periodics. His proposal was that ice ages were caused by precession of the Earth's poles, rather than a 180° flip of the planet. [1] Unless there is a source for the text, I think it should be taken as an incorrect interpretation and removed.— RJH ( talk) 20:18, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
Joseph Adhémar's hypothesis concerns only astronomic causes of climate change and has nothing to do with crustal displacement of even continental drift. Though Adhemar was one of the first to speculate on external forces causing widespread change on Earth, I agree the reference to his theory may be misleading, if not irrelevant to the subject, and I think should be removed altogether. Kohai357 ( talk) 18:42, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
This article puts a lot of weight on the hypothesis of Charles Hapgood, while providing only a single reference. This reference states that, "Hapgood created this theory by documenting three Earth crust displacements in the last 100,000 years." However, it also states that, "Hapgood revised key parts of his thinking because his calculations convinced him that the mass of the ice cap on Antartica could not destabilize the Earth's rotation." I checked through Hapgood's 1970 The Path of the Pole, but that work didn't appear to argue in favor of the ice mass causing a polar shift. It also makes no mention of Adhemar's work, and so I'm dubious about that as well.
It appears that this article is heavily slanted in favor of a particular hypothesis while discarding anything to the contrary.— RJH ( talk) 17:41, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Im just going to ask a question. Based on mathematics, And from that has been found in fossil remains and ELE's from geological time charts . now the question ( would the mag. pole shifts create massive stresses on the con. shelves ? ) And if so . (would it not accure over a long peiord of time) And ending in a grand event? thank you for your time ,. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.56.146.243 ( talk) 23:03, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Recent papers on the topic seem to focus on mantle convection models during supercontinent assembly and dispersal. There's a decent looking paper here on the topic, but I don't know enough about geophysics to do it justice.
{{
cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter |month=
ignored (
help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)Is anybody interested? Thanks.— RJH ( talk) 21:46, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
I think don't belong according to our guidelines at WP:ALSO. The argument for them is "These are relevant since most polar shift theory relies on eveidence of global Deluge for oceans "slosh" in shift @ 9th mill. BC, 4th mill missed)" but they don't mention the pole shift hypothesis and if the arguments are used by adherents, fine, use some reliable sources to include them in the article. Otherwise what we have is an unusual example of original research and adding these as links is not helpful to our readers. Thanks. Dougweller ( talk) 09:45, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
(OD) I have no connections (that I'm aware of) to anyone on either side of this discussion, and the links to me seem quite superfluous, especially the last two. Linking to an entire millenium seems a bit much. Dayewalker ( talk) 07:41, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
If all parties are agreable, I am willing to open this request and act as mediator. -- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) ( talk) 17:10, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
Granite07 ( talk) 20:00, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
(OD) To clarify, the quoted comments above are mine, not Dougwellers. I'll reiterate what DW says above though, Skype (or any other form of off-wiki discussion) is not a matter of consensus. It's completely against Wikipedia policy. If someone wants to suggest it on a policy board, that's their decision, but I won't be taking part in any off-wiki discussions unless they're approved by WP. Dayewalker ( talk) 22:53, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) I was away for a few days and was unable to comment. Granite07 has left a message on my talk page asking my assistance here again. Now as I see it, pretty much everyone is keen to put the incident in the past, agree to be polite and work together based on consensus. My personal feeling is that if everyone can agree to this, we can avoid a formal mediation case. If not, then mediation would need to address why this is not possible, which would change the focus somewhat of the case as it has been requested. -- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) ( talk) 12:23, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Regarding [3] I am (perhaps somewhat surprisingly) of granite07's opinion: these links do in deed belong, though it would be better to work them into the article. All (or at least some of) this nonsense is of a piece, and well worth linking together. I'm going to have a go at doing this William M. Connolley ( talk) 17:57, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
— RJH ( talk) 16:51, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
As I noted above, I'm actually professionally knowledgeable about true polar wander. I was going to put this on my back burner, but this intense discussion has led me to think that it should be on the front. My off-the-top-of-the-head checklist is:
Awickert ( talk) 08:21, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
The page starts by saying that this is a hypothesis in the change of the locations of the poles. OK.
It then goes on to saying that it is only true polar wander. OK.
It says that this is less accepted than geomagnetic reversal. WRONG.
OK: Pause. So once it becomes the same thing as true polar wander, it stops being a wacko hypothesis and starts being mainstream science. If this is all the article is, it should be merged into the real science of true polar wander and be done away with. But if it is about the crazy speculation, then pole shift is a hypothesis and could be either true polar wander or a change in the rotational axis with respect to the sun. In that case, the article should be changed to reflect this.
So I really can't start to touch the article until I know which of these the article is. I'm going for the latter pseudoscience category myself.
Your opinions, please? Awickert ( talk) 17:54, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
...including psychic readings, often linked to other beliefs such as Tollmann's hypothetical..., often is too strong a word, please change it to possibly. Granite07 ( talk) 21:40, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
I AM A STUDENT OF11 CLASS AND IN THIS SUDJECT I AM NOT SO INELLEGENT BUT I THINK DUE TO HUMAN DISASTER OR NATURAL EVENT HUMAN COMMUNITY $ OTHER ORGANISUM WILL EXTINCT BECAUSE OF THE CHANGES OF POLES —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.168.252.108 ( talk) 14:42, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
The following entry was tagged as unsourced since September:
I did a search but couldn't find a suitable source. In any event, it seems pretty unlikely to have that effect without having sufficient energy to simultaneously destroy the lithosphere. Cf. giant impact hypothesis.— RJH ( talk) 18:37, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Hello, I just like to point on the fact, that in the 1956 Book "The Calendar of Tiahuanaco" by H.S. Bellamy and P. Allan (p.30) the theory of earth crust shifting was also part of Hoerbigers theory. Maybe this should be inserted in the text of the article.-- 87.152.241.131 ( talk) 14:44, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Here's a quote from the head of the article:
Among the scientific community, the evidence shows that no rapid shifts in the Earth's pole have occurred during the last 200 million years.[2] True polar wander is known to occur, but only at rates of 1° per million years or less.[3] The last rapid shift in the poles may have occurred 800 million years ago..
So which one is it? 200 million or 800 million?-- Namaste@ ? 09:43, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Hi,
Looking at this discussion page, it's clear a lot has been done to clean up this article over time. I have only two minor points to raise.In the "recent conjectures" section, is the following text:
"In 1997, Richard W. Noone published the novel 5/5/2000, ICE: The Ultimate Disaster"
I am currently reading this book, which is how I wound up on this page. While it contains considerable speculative data, it is not a work of fiction in the traditional sense (ie, no characters, plotline,etc.) The Library of Congress has classed it under BF1999 - occult sciences, not fiction or literature. Therefore the descriptor "novel" is inappropriate, and should be removed.
Its original date of publication is listed as 1986, so this fact is also listed inaccurately.
Otherwise, thanks for the clarifying article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.83.198.235 ( talk) 01:09, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
I think the sentence That is, either the planet remains stationary but its spin axis moves, the spin axis remains fixed and the planet (or layers of it) move with respect to it, or a combination of these two occur. is redundant, its content having already been given in the preceding sentence. It is also ambiguous because it does not mention the reference with respect to which the planet (or the spin axis) remain stationary or fixed. I, therefore, recommend dropping it. Nfr-Maat ( talk) 04:09, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
The final sentences of the second paragraph are: "Between approximately 790 and 810 million years ago, when the supercontinent Rodinia existed, two geologically-rapid phases of true polar wander may have occurred. In each of these, the Earth rotated ~55°.[4]"
This claim cites the following paper: http://gsabulletin.gsapubs.org/content/118/9-10/1099 (readable openly at http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~jkirschvink/pdfs/maloof_svaltpw.pdf), which suggests several lines of evidence used to provide the hypothesis that a true polar wandering event was a cause of such observations. There was no direct evidence of this, however a true polar wandering event provides one possible explanation. Language indicating such should be used in presenting that paper's findings in this article. The language used in the current article does not meet that standard, and suggests that this hypothesis is an established fact.
A summary article summarizing this paper, while pointing out this is a "best fit for [the] current evidence, [but] not a certainty", is at: [ [4]]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Klassica ( talk • contribs) 07:02, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Greetings,
I would Like to point out that the author of the article is incorrect at saying this is only a theory, it is a scientific fact that the Earths magnetic poles do completely shift at I believe it is about every 500 thousand years or so. this has been shown from ice cores taken from the Antarctic Region... What is theory is how these shifts occur, do they shift rapidly, immediately, or over an extended period of time... the complete shift was shown to have occurred approx 750 thousand years ago and the previous one to that 500 thousand years ago... Pole wobble is also a fact and occurs more often... right now, pole the poles are shifting about 40 miles a year, it is not known if this is just a wobble or a slow shift as the movement is steadily moving away from the current north-south orientation... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.172.154.78 ( talk) 18:14, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
sorry wanted to update some info... the shifts occure approx 300 - 500 thousand years...
also wanted to site an official source to show scientific fact of this:
http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/lookingatearth/29dec_magneticfield.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.172.154.78 ( talk) 18:32, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
In the sentence "Velikovsky supported his work with historical records, although his studies were mainly ridiculed by the scientific community." what is the value of mentioning that his studies were ridiculed by the scientific community? In no way is this a good reason to reject Velikovsky's position because it merely shows that he was a victim of an ad hominem attack perpetrated by some individuals resting on the support of the argument from authority. Given that this article is intended to examine the veracity of the hypothesis at hand and not the struggles of its proponents, the mention of ridicule by the scientific community should be removed. Phiborjam ( talk) 23:09, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
In the paragraph:
"However, in his subsequent work The Path of the Pole, Hapgood conceded Einstein's point that the weight of the polar ice would be insufficient to bring about a polar shift. Instead, Hapgood argued that the forces that caused the shifts in the crust must be located below the surface. He had no satisfactory explanation for how this could occur."
The last sentence should be removed as it is POV. The term 'satisfactory' in this context without giving any empirical criteria that needs to be met, implies a reaction by the reader to Hapgood's explanation; he or she was not satisfied by his explanation. Instead the editor should present Hapgood's explanation(s) and let the Wikipedia reader decide whether or not it constitutes a satisfactory explanation.
Phiborjam (
talk)
23:27, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
In the 'Recent Conjectures' section, the first sentence states: "The field has attracted pseudoscientific authors offering a variety of evidence, including psychic readings." The term 'pseudoscientific' is an ad hominem label that is epistemologically irrelevant to any arguments or reasoning made by the authors listed in the 'Recent Conjectures' section. The listed authors may or may not have provided any good scientific reasons for believing in their theories, but that can be assessed by anyone that reads their works. Phiborjam ( talk) 23:46, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
There is fine line between promoting an agenda and supporting a position. I think I've found in this article an excellent example of promoting an agenda. In this case there is clearly a group of editors bent on promoting the position that certain authors deserve the label 'psuedoscientific.' While promoting a position is supposed to be against the principles of Wikipedia, I'm starting to wonder if an exception is being made for those that are promoting the skeptics agenda. I thought the purpose of an encyclopedia, of which Wikipedia attempts to portray itself as such, is to present facts and information, and where necessary an explanation of those facts and information in a manner that the reader can acquire knowledge. However, drawing conclusions about the nature of particular individuals (authors) in one article based on a description of a practice(pseudoscience) presented in an entirely different article veers away from the objective presentation of information and into the presentation and promotion of a particular point of view. This is especially true with the case at hand given that no citation or evidence has been presented to support the position that any given author fits the category of 'pseudoscientific.' In fact there is a great deal of vagueness about who the editor is referring to as pseudoscientific. Does the term necessarily include all those authors listed in the section that the term is used? If so why is that not stated? I'm sure many different hypothesis, theories, conjectures whether accepted by academics or not have still attracted a large variety of characters that would fit into a myriad of different categories that are listed as entries on Wikipedia. Does that mean every time we find an author that an editor thinks fits category X that wrote about subject Y, an entry needs to be made stating that subject Y has attracted an author who is an X? To me this all seems like I'm fighting against childish name calling, especially when the authors in question I'm sure have never identified themselves as being, nor would they ever like being called, a pseudoscientific author. So let us leave the conclusions about authors, and any possible name-calling to the reader and keep this encyclopedia a professional, serious place for objective learning. Quarky Gluon ( talk) 05:33, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
In case of Pole shift hypothesis, the application "pseudoscientific" depends upon the specific author being discussed. In case of Dr. Charles Hapgood, the term "pseudoscientific" is clearly inappropriate. He argued for the validity of Pole shift hypothesis somewhat within the accepted context of what was known about Pleistocene geology, geochronology, tectonics, and other aspects of Earth Science in the 1950s. However, some later authors, i.e. Hancock and Rand Flem-Ath in their arguments for the Pole shift hypothesis can be reasonable regarded to be "pseudoscientific" as they make their case by completely ignoring tan enormous accumulation of knowledge about basic Earth processes, i.e. plate tectonics; Quaternary paleoenvironmental, paleoclimatological, and palevegetation changes; Quaternary paleomagnetism; glacial processes and ice sheet prehistory; and basic geology that readily refute their ideas. Instead, they cherry pick the material, which they cite, often form popular nonscientific sources, and spin-doctor them to support their ideas. Both authors are classic "Cafeteria Catastrophists." They accept or reject data, papers, interpretations, and arguments in the way that a person selects or rejects food at a cafeteria based on either how tasteful or distasteful the food is. If something supports their ideas, they accept it and use it in their arguments. If something is "distasteful" in that it contradicts or refutes their ideas they reject and ignore it in their arguments. This is clearly a pseudoscientific way of arguing for a specific hypothesis. Their books would likely get and "F" in any undergraduate geology or geomorphology course. In the case of the Pole shift hypothesis, there are authors, which the scientific community agree are pseudoscientific in the manner in which they make their arguments for such an event. Garrett Fagan, i.e. Antarctic Farce, and others have written about them in various articles in papers at Ma'at papers. This web site has been reviewed in Archaeology Magazine in the Seductions of Pseudoarchaeology: Pseudoscience in Cyberspace. Paul H. ( talk) 15:02, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Why aren't radical and sudden changes to the pole orientation a violation of conservation of angular momentum (except in the case of encountering another large body so that transfer of angular momentum can occur)?
This doesn't appear correct to me. Crustal displacement and pole shift obviously does relate to plate tectonics and therefore the principles behind continental drift (also once considered a ludicrous concept). The new discovery of an "ultra-hard layer of rock within Earth’s lower mantle" may provide the mechanism that's currently missing in the pole shift hypothesis. [Nature Geoscience[ [5]]: Slab stagnation in the shallow lower mantle linked to an increase in mantle viscosity] Ward Arminius ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 02:00, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
> From 1982 to 2005, the pole drifted southeast toward northern Labrador
Is it written about the north geographic pole? But how it can drift anywhere but southward? Where "sotheast from the north pole" is supposed to be? Hellerick ( talk) 09:35, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Pole shift hypothesis. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:15, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
This page seems like it's mostly describing deprecated ideas and modern crankery - surely "pole shift" should redirect to the mainstream notion of geomagnetic reversal? Twin Bird ( talk) 01:57, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
@ Doug Weller: I agree that Chan Thomas's writings are nutty, but his work has a little bit of traction out there in conspiracy theory land, largely because it was filed by the CIA. Is it really so off the wall that can't even be mentioned? As it stands, the article has all sorts of ridiculous claims about Atlantis, Mu and worlds in collision. Also - minor point - there are two or three other publications that I could find by Emerson House: a second Chan Thomas effort, and a couple of other "alternative" texts. Ewen ( talk) 05:19, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
The following statement appears in the article: "Pole shift hypotheses are not the same as geomagnetic reversal, the periodic reversal of the Earth's magnetic field (effectively switching the north and south magnetic poles)." I suggest that this be further elaborated upon. As of present, neither this article nor the one on geomagnetic reversal makes a significant effort to contrast the two theories. One is a mainstream scientific theory, while the other is a fringe, or pseudoscientific notion. Yet, to a casual observer, they seem very similar. An explanation as to what distinguishes these two from each other would be educationally valuable. Wwkirk ( talk) 14:09, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
The article says "In the early 1960s, Chan Thomas wrote a book titled The Adam and Eve Story and attempted to have it published by Emerson House in Los Angeles. Soon after publishing the full issue, the CIA classified his book for 50 years.[17] An FOIA lawsuit was filed against the CIA to release the book.[citation needed] In 2013, the CIA released a "cleansed" version of the original book (50 pages out of 240 original pages).[17] The major difference to Hapgood's claims is that, according to Chan Thomas, the crust moved back to its original position within a relatively short time."
I believe this is incorrect, but don't have a good source to justify that belief, so haven't modified the article. In general, only documents authored by members of the government are classified by US intelligence agencies, and it would be unconstitutional and bizarre for the CIA to 'classify' this book and pull it from circulation.
In particular, the document was neither 'cleansed' by the CIA, nor did they prevent it from being circulated. This library record indicates that it was published and included in library collections in 1961.
This Reddit thread has a much more plausible explanation: [2] - in brief, that someone that the CIA had an interest in owned a copy of it, it was kept for some reason, and that copy was released in response to an FOIA request for details about that person.
-- Edyoung0 ( talk) 05:19, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
References
I may be wrong but the most recent studies on polar shift seem to show a very rapid movement ongoing. I wonder why this information is not included. Nor are any of the studies that support this theory. You should make the case for both arguments. The only thing about this that is pseudoscience is what you call it. 2600:1700:1471:6AB0:80E5:8792:8898:F2F0 ( talk) 03:29, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
This article needs to better clarify the difference between cataclysmic pole shift and earth crust displacement. Johne White's book, Pole Shift, is a good place to start because he explains the different variations of cataclysmic pole shift and earth crust displacement. Paul H. ( talk) 00:41, 27 April 2024 (UTC)