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Cat Stevens was one of the Music good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||
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To-do list for Cat Stevens:
Please use only reliable published sources. Priority 3
|
This article has previously been nominated to be moved.
Discussions:
|
The result of the proposal was not moved. I think it's pretty clear that the proposed name isn't going to fly. No prejudice against a Yusuf Islam RM, but there's no need to muddle the discussion with a proposal that won't be adopted. Association football was once located at Football (soccer), but these sorts of titles with alternative names as disambiguation have been pretty soundly rejected for some time now. -- BDD ( talk) 18:01, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
Cat Stevens → Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens) – He is referred by both names commonly. 71.59.58.63 ( talk) 20:34, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian ( talk) 17:39, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Cat Stevens → Yusuf Islam – Yusuf Islam is more searched than Cat Stevens, see this link: http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=%2Fm%2F0kj34%2C%20Cat%20Stevens&cmpt=q Not to mention the tour that he recently did was under Yusuf Islam. Kami Mikazuki ( talk) 17:38, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
It's probably too late to comment here, but I agree with User:Tvoz, for the same reasons. Everyone exposed to the artist's music usually does so from his 1970s catalog, not as Yusuf, but as Cat Stevens, and he still records with that name as well. Most often they discover the "Yusuf music" after being told about the name change, but certainly, the bulk of his notability was earned as Cat Stevens and he uses the name on CDs and his songbooks teaching youngsters to play his songs from those earlier days, as well as other opportunities to continue earning money which he uses for philanthropic and educational organizations. -- Leahtwosaints ( talk) 18:13, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Princess Cheyenne was a famous exotic dancer in Boston who was once engaged to Cat Stevens. A Google Books search for "Princess Cheyenne" Boston turns up a Cat Stevens: Songbook but I can't preview it. It would be nice to know exactly what's said about her in the book. (I assume she's mentioned in it, otherwise why is it showing up in the search results?) Maybe she was the inspiration for a song. Can anyone help with this? -- Rosekelleher ( talk) 18:25, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
The title is currently "Cat Stevens", not "Yusef Islam". Why not use birth name, "Steven Demetre Giorgio", at the start instead? -- George Ho ( talk) 03:53, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedians fall over themselves to support Caitlyn Jenner's name change, yet after all this time Yusuf Islam is still stuck as Cat Stevens. He's been Yusuf Islam for 37 years, so I think we can safely say he's sincere about his change of identity. -- Walnuts go kapow ( talk) 08:10, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Why don't we move Muhammad Ali to Cassius Clay while we're at it? El-Baba ( talk) 08:23, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
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Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 02:01, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
I want to explain why I'm reverting the good faith edits by Winkelvi that changed references to "Yusuf" to "Islam", citing MOS. I believe this is a case where particular circumstances require an adaptation to our customary MOS guidelines. As we all of course know, "Islam" is the name of a religion as well as the surname the artist has adopted, and as such there is a high likelihood of confusion if we refer to him just as "Islam". Using "Yusuf Islam" each time proved awkward and unecessarily wordy. He himself now uses the single name "Yusuf" on his records and he is usually referred to as such by journalists ( see this recent article, for instance). An example of the confusion problem is this sentence from our article: Islam himself has said the "cut" between his former life and his life as a Muslim might have been too quick, too severe, and that more people might have been better informed about Islam, and given an opportunity to better understand it, and himself, if he had simply removed those items that were considered harām, in his performances, allowing him to express himself musically and educate listeners through his music without violating any religious constraints. Much clearer if we use "Yusuf" as the first word - there are numerous examples of potentially confusing wording. We've discussed this in the past - see this, for example - and have settled on using "Yusuf" - the mononym he uses himself, like Cher - (or using a pronoun) in the text, with appropriate use of "Yusuf Islam", but not "Islam" alone, except when referring to the religion - which we of course do in this article. It's the name he uses and is just clearer, and therefore acceptable under MOS guidelines, not unlike using first names in article where more than one individual with the same surname are discussed. Our first responsibility is clarity for our readers. MOS can accommodate unusual circumstances, and this article has remained relatively stable with that accommodation. I'm changing it back, but of course am open to discussion or other suggestions. Tvoz/ talk 06:55, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 14:45, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
My edit on the Salman Rushdie controversy has twice been reverted by User: Tvoz, who gave this justification for the second revert: RV: take it to talk if you wish but look at the archives' extensive discussion on this. Also, this is unsourced (note, YT is not RS), & your OR comment "showed Yusuf as being clearly in support of the fatwa." is POV. Last, "whitewash" is insulting.
I had said, This main article is a whitewash unless his words of fatwa support are included. I still feel that is fair comment and in no way insulting. The article is a hagiography, and Steven's disgraceful support of the fatwa inciting muslims to kill the eminent novelist Rushdie has been swept under the carpet. It is not OR to say he was "clearly in support"; the video archive shows this to be true. (It is of no lesser consequence that the video archive can been seen on YouTube; the fact is that the recording exists and is generally available). Fay Weldon's contemporaneous comments (and the police Inspector's spineless discomfiture) back this up.
I accept that there is separate full page on the Rushdie controversy, but I consider that my short paragraph is an essential balance to this very biased main article. Perhaps Stevens now regrets his words and may deserve redemption, but if the article is going to sing his praises as a "man of peace", then the full story of his incitement to murder should also be made clear. Just as the Scientology WP page is regularly policed to keep the truth at bay, it seems that the same appears be true here.
My deleted paragraph said, 'When asked on TV if he would shelter Rushdie, Yusuf replied that he would try to phone Ayatollah Khomeini to tell him exactly where Rushdie was. Yusuf said that, if they were in an Islamic state, and if ordered to execute Rushdie, then "Perhaps, yes!" Asked if he would attend a demonstration where an effigy of Rushdie would be burned, Yusuf replied,"I would have hoped it would be the real thing; but no, if it's just an effigy, I don't think (so)". Fay Weldon, who was present, said she wished the Police Superintendent (who was also present) would arrest Yusuf for incitement to burn Rushdie.' Everything in that paragraph is true, relevant unbiased and concise, and should stay in the article. Arrivisto ( talk) 11:13, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
What is a ""Selected" Discography"? Wiktionary and urban dictionary have no entries. 72.223.107.29 ( talk) 05:21, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
Early Musical Career section:
"Over the next two years, Stevens recorded and toured with an eclectic group of artists ranging from Jimi Hendrix to Engelbert Humperdinck. Stevens was considered a fresh-faced teen star, placing several single releases in the British pop music charts.[33] Some of that success was attributed to the pirate radio station Wonderful Radio London, which gained him fans by playing his records. In August 1967, he went on the air with other recording artists who had benefited from the station to mourn its closure.[34]"
The source link (#34 here) is dead and some quick internet searching doesn't lead me to any sources to confirm these details. Does anyone have a reliable source for both the claim that he was listened to on Wonderful Radio, and that he was on the air for their closure broadcast? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Klockwerk ( talk • contribs) 17:06, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 08:32, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
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Removed comment that violates strict BLP rules. Further, we don't allow original research or interpretations. Tvoz/ talk 07:31, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
I have added the relevant quotes to the article. and the quotes explicitly support the fatwa. I don't want to get into an edit war, but those quotes will remain in the article as they are critical to that section. If you revert them without good cause (and saying BLP is not a magic wand), I will seek arbitration from the Wiki team, not a volunteer such as yourself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tanila001 ( talk • contribs) 04:58, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
I have reverted your changes, see edit summary. I will accept a brief summary and link to main, but if you include his defence you must include the source of the allegations. To not do so is a clear NPOV violation.
Tanila001 (
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22:49, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
Sample text, include both sides - In 1989, Islam made a series of public statements about the fatwa calling for the killing of Salman Rushdie, author of the novel The Satanic Verses. Following an address by Islam to students at London's Kingston University, he was asked about the Rushdie fatwa. In his reply, Islam stated "He must be killed. The Qur'an makes it clear – if someone defames the prophet, then he must die." He released a statement the following day denying that he supported vigilantism, and claiming that he had merely recounted the legal Islamic punishment for blasphemy. Subsequently, in a 1989 interview on Australian television, Islam was asked if Rushdie deserved to die and replied "Yes, yes". In the same interview, he also stated that he would prefer to burn Rushdie rather than an effigy at a rally. In a statement in the FAQ section of one of his websites, Islam asserted that while he regretted the comments, he was joking and that the show was improperly edited.[84] In the years since these comments he has repeatedly denied ever calling for the death of Rushdie or supporting the fatwa[12][72.
Sample text, omit details - In 1989, Islam made a series of public statements about the fatwa calling for the killing of Salman Rushdie, author of the novel The Satanic Verses. This included Islam stating "He must be killed. The Qur'an makes it clear – if someone defames the prophet, then he must die." Islam subsequently stated that he was discussing legal Islamic punishments for blasphemy and not directly addressing the Rushdie fatwa or supporting vigilantism.
I think both the above are fair and keep a NPOV. If you disagree, please be specific and do not engage in a bad faith edit war.
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:15, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
Hi folks there was already an entry for this; I just changed the tense. I also added another citation. This is worth keeping current. Realitylink ( talk) 10:09, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
In 1990 he went to visit Saddam Hussein, according to him, to tell him to pull out of Kuwait, among other messages. This article makes no mention of this. And a search of this Talk and the archives comes up empty. Adding this info to the article will be a definite improvement. I have no idea why this wasn't done.
Here's the story in his own words:
Perhaps others here would like to join in the effort of gathering additional excellent references and then adding this info to the article. Also, if anyone knows the reason why this info is not already included, I'd be interested to hear that story. -- Concord19 ( talk) 18:47, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
Maybe worth to add: In 1986 he went to Peshawar to see the situation of the Afghan refugees for himself. There he started a cooperation with Abdallah Azzam, one of the most influential jihadists, and his service bureau (mainly financed by Osama bin Laden). The bureau published jihadi hymns sung by Cat Stevens. He also appeared on the cover of the al-Jihad magazine: https://books.google.com/books?id=7FfPDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA277
Reference: Hegghammer, Thomas (2020). The Caravan. Abdallah Azzam and the Rise of Global Jihad. Cambridge University Press. p. 233–234. ISBN 978-0-521-76595-4.
Jo1971 ( talk) 09:15, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
shouldn't this article be named to reflect the name of the person its after?
the speedrunner known as /info/en/?search=Narcissa_Wright was formerly known as Cosmo. The article reflects this change Does a name change for Islam not demand the same respect? Is there a good reason that this article still refers to Yusuf by his old name? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:BE60:2B60:0:0:0:32 ( talk) 17:02, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
Unfortunately note 74 seems to be a dead link. I would have liked to have read the context. It does seem strange that a musician would have no knowledge of a millennium of western musical tradition. 162.251.16.246 ( talk) 04:39, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
He lives in Dubai and doesn't have a home in London. The article needs to be corrected. Ydawg11 ( talk) 10:48, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
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Cat Stevens was one of the Music good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||
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Current status: Delisted good article |
To-do list for Cat Stevens:
Please use only reliable published sources. Priority 3
|
This article has previously been nominated to be moved.
Discussions:
|
The result of the proposal was not moved. I think it's pretty clear that the proposed name isn't going to fly. No prejudice against a Yusuf Islam RM, but there's no need to muddle the discussion with a proposal that won't be adopted. Association football was once located at Football (soccer), but these sorts of titles with alternative names as disambiguation have been pretty soundly rejected for some time now. -- BDD ( talk) 18:01, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
Cat Stevens → Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens) – He is referred by both names commonly. 71.59.58.63 ( talk) 20:34, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
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Wikipedia's policy on article titles.See BBC: Cat Stevens to tour US for the first time since 1976 Esowteric+ Talk 08:47, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian ( talk) 17:39, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Cat Stevens → Yusuf Islam – Yusuf Islam is more searched than Cat Stevens, see this link: http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=%2Fm%2F0kj34%2C%20Cat%20Stevens&cmpt=q Not to mention the tour that he recently did was under Yusuf Islam. Kami Mikazuki ( talk) 17:38, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
It's probably too late to comment here, but I agree with User:Tvoz, for the same reasons. Everyone exposed to the artist's music usually does so from his 1970s catalog, not as Yusuf, but as Cat Stevens, and he still records with that name as well. Most often they discover the "Yusuf music" after being told about the name change, but certainly, the bulk of his notability was earned as Cat Stevens and he uses the name on CDs and his songbooks teaching youngsters to play his songs from those earlier days, as well as other opportunities to continue earning money which he uses for philanthropic and educational organizations. -- Leahtwosaints ( talk) 18:13, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Princess Cheyenne was a famous exotic dancer in Boston who was once engaged to Cat Stevens. A Google Books search for "Princess Cheyenne" Boston turns up a Cat Stevens: Songbook but I can't preview it. It would be nice to know exactly what's said about her in the book. (I assume she's mentioned in it, otherwise why is it showing up in the search results?) Maybe she was the inspiration for a song. Can anyone help with this? -- Rosekelleher ( talk) 18:25, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
The title is currently "Cat Stevens", not "Yusef Islam". Why not use birth name, "Steven Demetre Giorgio", at the start instead? -- George Ho ( talk) 03:53, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedians fall over themselves to support Caitlyn Jenner's name change, yet after all this time Yusuf Islam is still stuck as Cat Stevens. He's been Yusuf Islam for 37 years, so I think we can safely say he's sincere about his change of identity. -- Walnuts go kapow ( talk) 08:10, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Why don't we move Muhammad Ali to Cassius Clay while we're at it? El-Baba ( talk) 08:23, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
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Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 02:01, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
I want to explain why I'm reverting the good faith edits by Winkelvi that changed references to "Yusuf" to "Islam", citing MOS. I believe this is a case where particular circumstances require an adaptation to our customary MOS guidelines. As we all of course know, "Islam" is the name of a religion as well as the surname the artist has adopted, and as such there is a high likelihood of confusion if we refer to him just as "Islam". Using "Yusuf Islam" each time proved awkward and unecessarily wordy. He himself now uses the single name "Yusuf" on his records and he is usually referred to as such by journalists ( see this recent article, for instance). An example of the confusion problem is this sentence from our article: Islam himself has said the "cut" between his former life and his life as a Muslim might have been too quick, too severe, and that more people might have been better informed about Islam, and given an opportunity to better understand it, and himself, if he had simply removed those items that were considered harām, in his performances, allowing him to express himself musically and educate listeners through his music without violating any religious constraints. Much clearer if we use "Yusuf" as the first word - there are numerous examples of potentially confusing wording. We've discussed this in the past - see this, for example - and have settled on using "Yusuf" - the mononym he uses himself, like Cher - (or using a pronoun) in the text, with appropriate use of "Yusuf Islam", but not "Islam" alone, except when referring to the religion - which we of course do in this article. It's the name he uses and is just clearer, and therefore acceptable under MOS guidelines, not unlike using first names in article where more than one individual with the same surname are discussed. Our first responsibility is clarity for our readers. MOS can accommodate unusual circumstances, and this article has remained relatively stable with that accommodation. I'm changing it back, but of course am open to discussion or other suggestions. Tvoz/ talk 06:55, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 14:45, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
My edit on the Salman Rushdie controversy has twice been reverted by User: Tvoz, who gave this justification for the second revert: RV: take it to talk if you wish but look at the archives' extensive discussion on this. Also, this is unsourced (note, YT is not RS), & your OR comment "showed Yusuf as being clearly in support of the fatwa." is POV. Last, "whitewash" is insulting.
I had said, This main article is a whitewash unless his words of fatwa support are included. I still feel that is fair comment and in no way insulting. The article is a hagiography, and Steven's disgraceful support of the fatwa inciting muslims to kill the eminent novelist Rushdie has been swept under the carpet. It is not OR to say he was "clearly in support"; the video archive shows this to be true. (It is of no lesser consequence that the video archive can been seen on YouTube; the fact is that the recording exists and is generally available). Fay Weldon's contemporaneous comments (and the police Inspector's spineless discomfiture) back this up.
I accept that there is separate full page on the Rushdie controversy, but I consider that my short paragraph is an essential balance to this very biased main article. Perhaps Stevens now regrets his words and may deserve redemption, but if the article is going to sing his praises as a "man of peace", then the full story of his incitement to murder should also be made clear. Just as the Scientology WP page is regularly policed to keep the truth at bay, it seems that the same appears be true here.
My deleted paragraph said, 'When asked on TV if he would shelter Rushdie, Yusuf replied that he would try to phone Ayatollah Khomeini to tell him exactly where Rushdie was. Yusuf said that, if they were in an Islamic state, and if ordered to execute Rushdie, then "Perhaps, yes!" Asked if he would attend a demonstration where an effigy of Rushdie would be burned, Yusuf replied,"I would have hoped it would be the real thing; but no, if it's just an effigy, I don't think (so)". Fay Weldon, who was present, said she wished the Police Superintendent (who was also present) would arrest Yusuf for incitement to burn Rushdie.' Everything in that paragraph is true, relevant unbiased and concise, and should stay in the article. Arrivisto ( talk) 11:13, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
What is a ""Selected" Discography"? Wiktionary and urban dictionary have no entries. 72.223.107.29 ( talk) 05:21, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
Early Musical Career section:
"Over the next two years, Stevens recorded and toured with an eclectic group of artists ranging from Jimi Hendrix to Engelbert Humperdinck. Stevens was considered a fresh-faced teen star, placing several single releases in the British pop music charts.[33] Some of that success was attributed to the pirate radio station Wonderful Radio London, which gained him fans by playing his records. In August 1967, he went on the air with other recording artists who had benefited from the station to mourn its closure.[34]"
The source link (#34 here) is dead and some quick internet searching doesn't lead me to any sources to confirm these details. Does anyone have a reliable source for both the claim that he was listened to on Wonderful Radio, and that he was on the air for their closure broadcast? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Klockwerk ( talk • contribs) 17:06, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 08:32, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 00:14, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
Removed comment that violates strict BLP rules. Further, we don't allow original research or interpretations. Tvoz/ talk 07:31, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
I have added the relevant quotes to the article. and the quotes explicitly support the fatwa. I don't want to get into an edit war, but those quotes will remain in the article as they are critical to that section. If you revert them without good cause (and saying BLP is not a magic wand), I will seek arbitration from the Wiki team, not a volunteer such as yourself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tanila001 ( talk • contribs) 04:58, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
I have reverted your changes, see edit summary. I will accept a brief summary and link to main, but if you include his defence you must include the source of the allegations. To not do so is a clear NPOV violation.
Tanila001 (
talk)
22:49, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
Sample text, include both sides - In 1989, Islam made a series of public statements about the fatwa calling for the killing of Salman Rushdie, author of the novel The Satanic Verses. Following an address by Islam to students at London's Kingston University, he was asked about the Rushdie fatwa. In his reply, Islam stated "He must be killed. The Qur'an makes it clear – if someone defames the prophet, then he must die." He released a statement the following day denying that he supported vigilantism, and claiming that he had merely recounted the legal Islamic punishment for blasphemy. Subsequently, in a 1989 interview on Australian television, Islam was asked if Rushdie deserved to die and replied "Yes, yes". In the same interview, he also stated that he would prefer to burn Rushdie rather than an effigy at a rally. In a statement in the FAQ section of one of his websites, Islam asserted that while he regretted the comments, he was joking and that the show was improperly edited.[84] In the years since these comments he has repeatedly denied ever calling for the death of Rushdie or supporting the fatwa[12][72.
Sample text, omit details - In 1989, Islam made a series of public statements about the fatwa calling for the killing of Salman Rushdie, author of the novel The Satanic Verses. This included Islam stating "He must be killed. The Qur'an makes it clear – if someone defames the prophet, then he must die." Islam subsequently stated that he was discussing legal Islamic punishments for blasphemy and not directly addressing the Rushdie fatwa or supporting vigilantism.
I think both the above are fair and keep a NPOV. If you disagree, please be specific and do not engage in a bad faith edit war.
Tanila001 (
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23:10, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:15, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
Hi folks there was already an entry for this; I just changed the tense. I also added another citation. This is worth keeping current. Realitylink ( talk) 10:09, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
In 1990 he went to visit Saddam Hussein, according to him, to tell him to pull out of Kuwait, among other messages. This article makes no mention of this. And a search of this Talk and the archives comes up empty. Adding this info to the article will be a definite improvement. I have no idea why this wasn't done.
Here's the story in his own words:
Perhaps others here would like to join in the effort of gathering additional excellent references and then adding this info to the article. Also, if anyone knows the reason why this info is not already included, I'd be interested to hear that story. -- Concord19 ( talk) 18:47, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
Maybe worth to add: In 1986 he went to Peshawar to see the situation of the Afghan refugees for himself. There he started a cooperation with Abdallah Azzam, one of the most influential jihadists, and his service bureau (mainly financed by Osama bin Laden). The bureau published jihadi hymns sung by Cat Stevens. He also appeared on the cover of the al-Jihad magazine: https://books.google.com/books?id=7FfPDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA277
Reference: Hegghammer, Thomas (2020). The Caravan. Abdallah Azzam and the Rise of Global Jihad. Cambridge University Press. p. 233–234. ISBN 978-0-521-76595-4.
Jo1971 ( talk) 09:15, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
shouldn't this article be named to reflect the name of the person its after?
the speedrunner known as /info/en/?search=Narcissa_Wright was formerly known as Cosmo. The article reflects this change Does a name change for Islam not demand the same respect? Is there a good reason that this article still refers to Yusuf by his old name? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:BE60:2B60:0:0:0:32 ( talk) 17:02, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
Unfortunately note 74 seems to be a dead link. I would have liked to have read the context. It does seem strange that a musician would have no knowledge of a millennium of western musical tradition. 162.251.16.246 ( talk) 04:39, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
He lives in Dubai and doesn't have a home in London. The article needs to be corrected. Ydawg11 ( talk) 10:48, 2 November 2023 (UTC)