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XX or XY? I don't care what they're calling those these days but which is it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.122.63.142 ( talk) 13:29, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
There is no mention in the current version of the leaks to the Media. The LA Times has a story some info on the leak. A somewhat sensitive and unfortunate incident, but whatever the case, Wiki should contain reliable information. Wapondaponda ( talk) 19:46, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Caster Semenya is a hermaphrodite. Why does this article still say they don't know about her gender? -- TangoFett ( talk) 00:28, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Caution: This article is currently seeing slow progress. Edits may get reverted or removed not only if they are not properly sourced, as would be true of any article, but also if they contain information that said source has not gotten properly. You should provide an edit summary, and I would also recommend having read and understood the contents of this talk page so that you know exactly what information I am alluding to here before attempting any contributions. Thank you for your cooperation! Chrisrus ( talk) 05:51, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
I'd just like to point out that, though this page is locked so that only administrators can edit it, if people can come to some agreement on the talk page as to how that 'gender' paragraph should read, it should be a simple matter of posting an {{ editprotected}} request here with the agreed text, and an uninvolved admin (not me!) will change it - Alison ❤ 07:35, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
I do not understand why Wikipedia is getting this wrong. You can't run a "gender test" by looking at a person's chromosomes. Gender is a psychological aspect of humans. Sex is the question. You can run a sex test, sex is what we define as the differentiation between male and female. I understand most news sites don't make the distinction, but I expect more from Wikipedia. A male, (XY), can have feminine/masculine/neutral gender traits, and still be of the male sex. Similarly a female (XX) can have feminine/masculine/neutral gender traits and still be of the female sex. Gender is simply the wrong word to refer to the issue. No one is questioning whether or not she acts and thinks 'like' a woman. They ask questioning if she 'is' a woman (physically). It would also serve to understand that not all humans even fit within the sexes of XX and XY, there are many other variants (ex. XXX, XXY, XYY) that are not as of yet considered "officially". Usually any precence of the X chromosome determined the person to be of the male sex, but it is all too little understood by most people. I'm disappointed with Wikipedia here. 'Gender' needs to be replaced with 'sex'. Promontoriumispromontorium ( talk) 02:59, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
This is a common misconception. The word "gender" has several correct definitions and "state of being male or female, sex" is one of them. This article is not using the word wrong. It is simply using the colloquial definition rather than the one used in sociology. It is perfectly valid to call this "gender verification." Darkfrog24 ( talk) 15:25, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
What does this "...we get a gynae opinion and take it to Berlin" mean in this context? Chrisrus ( talk) 05:22, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Ok, so we have | this: "(ASA) president Leonard Chuene admitted on Saturday that he refused to accept advice from ASA team doctor Harold Adams to withdraw Caster Semenya from the world athletics championships in Berlin last month.". So must we still have doubt that Semenya is intersexed? Adams is named and has seen the evidence first hand and said she was intersex. He's the team doctor. Chrisrus ( talk)
← I am educated about it, thanks. I've written articles about intersex conditions, both here and for other publications and am aware of most of the latest research on the topic, having read far too many research papers. There are many, many intersex conditions that I'm aware of and it's simply not okay to go on with this "athletically male" nonsense when the facts are not available to you (nor to the Mail and Guardian). Does she have CAIS/PAIS, mixed gonadal dysgenesis, Swyer syndrome, etc, etc - just for starters? You certainly don't know. And as Bielle put it above; "This is a woman's life we are chatting about" and this is where my own interest lies. It's a BLP issue and remains so until some concrete, reliable source is cited and right now, that's yet to happen. All this "athletically male" nonsense is just idle chatter and you do not have the full facts - Alison ❤ 08:32, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Honestly, stop doing this and this. Your comments are now in complete disarray - Alison ❤ 06:08, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Right now, editors here should be working on addressing the 'gender' heading in the article, to come to some sort of concordance as to how it should read. All this idle speculation is getting us nowhere. Someone should post a suggested new paragraph here and let folks debate as to the correctness of it. Once everyone is happy, then request an update to the article or an unprotect. This is the way to move things forward - Alison ❤ 08:37, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Martin Hogbin ( talk) 09:41, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
I think it's time to re-merge the "Gender controversy" section back into the main text similar to what is seen here. She's 18? and I believe on suicide watch now. Let's not belabour and add undue drama where a real life is at risk. We are not a tabloid or a newspaper - we are an encyclopedia. A good or featured article would not shove all the tabloid bits into a special section like this bringing even more attention to the details. A good article would integrate the events coherently; extra details deemed needed perhaps could be relegated to footnotes for those readers interested. This will be an ongoing drama so we can let reliable sources lead the way. -- Banjeboi 14:36, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
I do not like the change to the lead section, where you have replaced my wording of 'eligibility to compete as woman' with 'gender'. I think that it is most important that we make the distinction between the way a person is generally classified as a man or a woman, which is a very complicated, emotive and personal subject, and the only issue of public importance, which is whether Caster is eligible to compete in women's athletics events. Her eligibility to compete in any given event depends only on the rules of the governing body for that sport.
If a sports person is declared under the rules of a sport to be ineligible to compete as a woman in a particular event that does not mean that she is not a woman, indeed, that person may be eligible to compete in another event, governed by a different body, as a woman and may me considered a woman for many other purposes. Conversely just because a person is considered eligible to compete as a woman in an event does not make her a woman for all purposes.
I accept that my wording was a bit cumbersome, perhaps 'eligibility to compete in women's events' may be better but we must make the distinction between a person's gender, in a general sense, and their eligibility to compete in a particular sport as a woman. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 08:36, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Hopefully I'm putting this in the right place, and I suppose I'm not much of a Wikipedian, but I'm a little disappointed that the "Gender Controversy" section has been merged... and essentially swept under the rug. While I feel for Ms. Semenya, and people certainly deserve to keep their medical information private, I think the only reason most of us are aware of her is because of questions related to her gender. Reducing these down to a single line -- "Following her victory, questions were raised about her gender" -- may be fair under the BLP policy, but seems roughly analogous to writing about Nixon and glossing over Watergate. Perhaps The Daily Telegraph (the Aussie one) isn't exactly the BBC, but no one has stated that what was written was libelous and journalists around the globe have used it as a source in dozens, perhaps hundreds, of articles. I think in this case the source is neither questionable nor gossip. Would Wikipedia not use Bob Woodward's secret informant Deep Throat?
I'm not trying to impugn Semenya's character -- unlike Nixon, I don't think she had any ill intent and is likely an innocent party in all of this hullabaloo. However, I think an encyclopedic article related to Caster Semenya should include a section related to the reason why she's known around the globe, even if that reason is hurtful to her personally. JoeyJoJoShabbaduJr ( talk) 15:56, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
It is interesting to ask why this information doesn't seem seriously in doubt outside of this article. The reason seems to rely in the reactions to the leak.
The IAAF reacted officially by refusing to confirm or deny, even when the organized wrath of the so many South Africans and others was directed at them, some of which was WAY over the top threatening. It doesn’t seem to make any sense to anyone why they wouldn’t just have said “Those are not the results of the test, the article is false; we didn't leak it, that article is wrong” and thereby simply making it all go away. There are circumstances when "we cannot confirm or deny" amounts to a pathetically thinly veiled confirmation. Also, what possible reason could there be for the results of the test to be still under review, if she's not intersex in a way that might question the propiety of her running in the women's 800M?
Second, the anti-IAAF reaction hasn't been to deny the info in the Australian leak. It doesn’t seem to make sense to those persuing this story that Semenya's defenders wouldn’t just deny the facts in the leak instead of decrying the invasion of privacy they represent, or questioning the motivation of the leakers. If the information in the leaks isn’t true, why react like that? Why not just say call them lies and sue for libel or anything like that? And besides, how hard would it be to prove them false if they were?
Third, and completely absent from this article and discuss page, are the events of the past week. We now know that the Atheletics South Africa had been lying about not having done tests and having found out that she was intersexed in a way which might (blah blah) the 800, having done this before Berlin and having lied to the IAAF and later the world about those facts, and also not, as reportedly had been done in previous cases, quietly withdrawing the athlete in order to avoid just specifically this kind of situation. The story is unfolding daily and has become somewhat of a South African political crisis of increasing magnitude. So one might expect this article to at least mention these things. The fact that we have not done so seems to be that the discourse outside of the article has long since moved past the premise that she’s intersex and left us behind and unable to find a way to incorporate it without the background information. Well, that's the reason I haven't anyway, I wouldn't know where in the article to put it. In order to understand what’s going on now, we’d have to understand what had gone on before and we can’t get past that point weeks ago. If I’m wrong about that, try writing a fair summary of this source http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=6&click_id=174&art_id=nw20090925152459203C586459 and then incorporating it into the article. If we want a cohesive, informative article, we have to do what the BBC, etc. do, and simply tell the readers what happened while adding words like “allegedly” or “reportedly” or “claimed that”, etc. We could even go further and not name the exact organs she has and does not have in an explicit way, if we're squeemish; we could say words to the effect of "missing the usual organs" and "possessing an internal set of male organs", or even just "an obviously intersex condition" or something even lighter. That way, we'd be safe with the BLP guidelines and still be able to write a decent article. And about embarassing Semenya by doing so? That damage has clearly already been done long ago by others.
Hope this helps! Chrisrus ( talk) 07:01, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=6&click_id=174&art_id=nw20090925152459203C586459
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/semenya-has-no-womb-or-ovaries/story-e6frexni-1225771672245
The relevant quote from this article is, "According to a source closely involved with the Semenya examinations IAAF testing, which included various scans, has revealed...". That is not, in my opinion, good enough for a BLP.
Martin Hogbin (
talk)
20:54, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
I have made some changes to the last paragraph. The original reference I found confusing about what was being cited (ref 28 from earlier today. I don't know how to link to it here), and I have provided a slightly different one that does do what is cited. (If the first was just fine, and I have mis-read, I apologize. I don't care which of the refs is used as long as we do not extrapolate into text that is not supported.) It is absolutely clear that all reports support hat the SA doctor, the coach and even the head of the association as trying to protect the confidentiality of Semenya's medical information. It is not anywhere stated that possible ambiguity about her gender as might be shown in the test results was the concern, but the fact that withdrawing her from competition on those grounds would have violated her privacy. Only the coach seemed concerned that not telling Semenya the truth about the nature of the tests, or about the results, could be viewed as an even greater ethical breach as it took out of her hands the decisions to be made about the very essece of her identity. This last bit, however, is my opinion only; pure WP:OR. // BL \\ ( talk) 16:45, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
http://hades.mg.co.za/article/2009-10-23-secret-report-reveals-chuenes-plotting Chrisrus ( talk) 14:40, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8333840.stm Chrisrus ( talk) 18:25, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20091021103342987C723275 Chrisrus ( talk) 19:15, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
http://www.timeslive.co.za/sundaytimes/article184381.ece Chrisrus ( talk) 23:34, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
The term Gender is not the same as Sex. Gender is a cultural construction (i.e., the number and composition of "genders" varies by culture), while sex is a biological trait (also not quite as neat and tidy as dual). There is no "gender testing" or "gender controversy". These tests are about sex. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.161.51.2 ( talk) 20:53, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
“People took the decision a few weeks ago to suspend me because they accused me of handling the Caster Semenya case wrongly. [3] Chrisrus ( talk) 18:50, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
The article says that MJ singled out the IAAF, but he spoke very early. Later, Carl Lewis singled out ASA for criticism. http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/21134540/vp/32875407#34109445 Let's be fair, MJ spoke before we knew what we know about the ASA role, he may agree with CL now. Chrisrus ( talk) 00:25, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
the IAAF The South African Sports Ministry (oops, I misread the first news release) announced today that Ms Semenya would be permitted to keep her gold medal and her prize money as there has been no wrong-doing on her part. It also stated that any legal tests done under its auspices would be treated under doctor-patient confidentiality and neither released nor discussed.
[4] Before we get into writing anything in the article, can anyone find a similar statement about whether or not Semenya's record stands?
Bielle (
talk)
16:10, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
"The IAAF says it is still working behind the scenes with Caster Semenya and the South African government to resolve issues about the 18-year-old runner's gender identity and future career."..... "The governing body of track says it cannot confirm the South African sports ministry's claims of a deal allowing Semenya to keep the 800-meter world title and prize money she won in August, and maintain privacy over her gender test results."... "...the parties are "almost there" in concluding complex negotiations."... "....."questions would not be resolved during a two-day meeting of the IAAF's ruling council which began Friday in Monaco"
This article looks credible, and comes from a generally reliable source. It states that Semenya was born intersex, and had a sex change at a young age that she wasn't aware of. Why isn't this being mentioned on this page? What's taking so long? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.120.163.106 ( talk) 21:21, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
Uhh, am I misreading this? It seems like its clearly referring to Semenya. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.120.163.106 ( talk) 07:07, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Let’s not kid ourselves about what the article as it stands does and does not do. No, it does not actually come out and say point blank “she’s intersex“, but don't let that fact let you let us all off the hook for exposing her. It very effectively tells the reader as much anyway. For example, when you tell someone that her team doctor performed an exam on her and went to the ASA and said “don’t send her, they’ll have to make her condition public”, Martin, when you tell them things like this, you let everyone know specifically what you say you don‘t want to tell them. No, you are right, the exact medical details will never be in the article, but the fact that she’s intersex is in there already. And that’s personal and private enough. So all her privacy about that fact she didn‘t want anyone to know, the personal medical fact, that she is somehow intersex, which it would seem she herself didn’t already know, this is already being stated in the article to the reader very clearly if they read at all carefully. This not just my doing, it’s yours and those of the other contributors who shared the goal of exposing the wrongdoers and “supporting” Semenya in this way, laudable goals, but have a look, it turns out that, hey, I’m sorry to be the one to point this out:
YOU CAN‘T do both:
a) not to tell the reader of her intersex condition,
b) tell the reader what exactly Chuene, etc. did wrong.
You can’t do both! I wish there were another way, but there’s not. There are several other examples, places in the article where we let on to the reader. If we don’t want to tell the reader personal medical information, we shouldn’t talk about the gender controversy at all, or find some very brief and vague way to mention it so that the reader won’t get the message loud and clear that this is an intersex person, because the article does this, as it stands now, and Caster didn’t want anyone to know the personal private medical information that she is intersex.
"There will be no discussion of Caster Semenya's case at the forthcoming IAAF council meeting to be held in Monaco on 20-21 November 2009. No further comment will be made on this subject until further notice."
The Age has a rather good article on media impact including some cultural nuances that may help here. -- Banjeboi 14:43, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
What information from the sources that we are already using are we ignoring? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8215112.stm
Would anyone object to my adding any of these sentences to the article?
I am not sure whether you expect comments from everyone on each suggestion but my general opinion is that to include much more on the subject would be giving undue weight to the gender controversy. This is an encyclopedia not a gossip column and the points you raise are only of passing importance. The only thing that we are all waiting for is confirmation (or otherwise) from the IAAF that Caster's Berlin result stands.
Is there one particular point that you think has special encyclopedic importance? Martin Hogbin ( talk) 11:04, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
In my opinion, I seems to me looking at this citation alone, we might be able to use the following:
When Caster Semenya was born, everyone observed her to be female.
… at which time, Caster asked Chuene “Why did you bring me here, you should have left me home in my village.” … (IF we can figure out what it was she meant by that)
After the race, the IAAF insisted that, in order to be declared the winner, she would first have to pass an internal examination in order to determine if she had a rare medical condition that would give her an unfair advantage over the racers.
…the IAAF insisted that it never suspected her of doping, cheating, or being a man posing as woman; they were looking for a rare medical condition that would give her unfair advantage over the other racers.
….Soon after it was made public that the IAAF had conducted the tests, the African National Congress, and the South African Young Communists League conducted a campaign of public outrage at the IAAF for having conducted an internal exam.
…, the results of which (the The Berlin Tests) have never been officially released, …
…, The IAAF medical examiners in Berlin deliberated and decided to give themselves November, 2009 before deciding what do with the results. (needs work).
…in Berlin, right after the tests Chuene (not the IAAF) announced with outrage that the internal exam had been conducted, publicly calling the internal examination “humiliating” and saying that Semenya had been treated “like a leper”. (Maybe not this last part. We are trying to write this with Semenya’s feelings in mind. On the other hand, it shows pretty clearly how well Chuene keeps that in mind when he speaks, to say nothing about the feelings of people with leprosy.)
(Subtext) IT WAS CHUENE WHO INITIALLY MADE THIS PUBLIC, NOT THE IAAF.
Important discussion of the nature and scope of the article itself has stopped the process at this point. Chrisrus ( talk) 05:56, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
A lot of questions debated here might best be resolved by the creation of a Semenya Gender Controversy (or some more generically titled) article. Keep the Semenya bio info here and farm the rest out to the new article. There is definitely valid information that should be in wiki about this situation, but some of it feels out of place here.-- Fizbin ( talk) 21:31, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
- “* South African runner Caster Semenya's muscular physique aided a victory during the 800 meters at the 2009 World Championships in Athletics in Berlin. The International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF), track and field's governing body, confirmed that Semenya had agreed to a sex-testing process that began in South Africa and was continuing in Germany. Officials wouldn't give details of the testing, but did say that it involves an endocrinologist, a gynecologist, a psychologist, and both internal and external examinations. [2]“
We can’t put equal weight on Caster’s athletic career and the gender controversy because her athletic career is too short and simple. Even if we did it perfectly, it would still be short. That’s just a simple fact. Put it aside as a given.
On the other hand, we can’t do justice to the gender controversy in few words. We can try for brevity, but it’s a very complicated situation and if we do it, as we are doing, in very few words, how can we be fair to all parties involved? As it is, it‘s not fair to all the parties it mentions. The reader can’t understand .
We can balance the lead and put the athletics up front, but if the gender controversy is to be done justice, if the reader is to be properly served, we must allow many more words in the gender controversy section than in the athletics section. Chrisrus ( talk) 16:50, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
One or the other, Martin. In the gender controversy section, we begin with the details Semenya winning in Berlin. But we already know this because we’ve read the sports section. I say delete it and start with the next sentence. “Following her victory, questions were raised about her gender. This is repeated from the lead, but that’s maybe good to do, repeat things from the lead.
Now we hear that she said she didn’t care. I say leave that part. I love it when she says stuff like how she doesn’t give a damn what anyone thinks, God made her that way and so on. And it certainly sounds like something she’d say. By all accounts it’s the kind of thing she’s been saying pretty much all her life and it makes me love her and have hope for her; she’ll get through this. It’s also great that we are letting let her have the first and last words on this matter.
But in the same sentence it’s she says she was so ticked off that she wanted to boycott the ceremony. But sources tell us that Chuene told that to some South African reporters that were there, and that he’d had to persuade her to do it, making him look powerful in her life as her big defender. But Chuene has proven to be an unreliable source, to say the least. I say lose it. Replace it with Semenya saying “Chuene, you asshole, why the hell did you bring me here for? You should have left me back in my Village”or whatever her exact word were, I’d say.
Then we hear that the IAAF are the bad guys, but not specifically what the accusation is yet, but we learn about the critics. Michael Johnson, speaking boldly, but very early on, against the IAAF administering the Berlin exams. When Carl Lewis spoke with great disgust about Chuene I thought for sure it’d make the article, but no one saw fit to include it, perhaps because at the time Chuene had set himself up as her defender and no one wanted to question him. I provided everything that’d be needed, quotation and citation, here in the talk page. On the other hand, this is supposed to be in chronological order. But for now please note that if we are going to have MJ vs. IAAF, we should look for a good place to include CL vs. ASA later on.
And then listing the South African players who came out swinging at the IAAF early on, and a taste of some of the over the top rhetoric they were coming out with (including threatening “WWIII”) about the evil IAAF, and but a word about how the ASA put the IAAF in that position knowingly. Do you think maybe we should back up a bit or not start at the end of the race? Knowing what we know now about what went on before Chuene brought her to Berlin might show these facts in a brighter light.
Then we let the IAAF defend itself. Well done I say. Look, some of that looks like my text!
Then we have the You magazine spread, not mentioning that it was arranged by the ASA to convince people that she wasn‘t intersex at all, and which make me cringe, I donno about you, you think that’s what a person who says "God made me the way I am and I accept myself" would want to do?
Daniels resigns in shame for not protecting her. Good one, leave it in, but does our reader understand what he meant by "we did not advise Ms Semenya properly"? Our reader does not understand. Protect her from what? The sources tell us that they failed to do what is usually done in such cases and not send them into a situation where the IAAF will have to test them and quietly let the person fade back into her private life.
Then we find out a little of what Chuene did, only that he had had Caster do a gender test too. I hope the reader gets the idea that, oh, so what was he so upset about the IAAF doing one also? I thought it was so wrong to insist that an athlete be subjected to internal examinations. I’m not so sure that the reader gets that, though. We are careful to let Chuene defend himself a little, he was just keeping her records confidential. That’s nice, how thoughtful of him. If he was so worried about her privacy, why did he put her in that situation. Oh well, let’m have his say, it’s only fair I suppose. But let’s make sure the reader understands that all previous attacks by the ASA on the IAAF for internal exam-insisting are now off.
Now we get to the meat of the matter. He ignored a request from ASA team doctor Harold Adams to withdraw Semenya from the world championships over concerns about the need to keep her medical records confidential. The whole point, irony of our position is right here. Should we say that Adams was saying, “she‘s intersex, if you send her, the world will find out personal stuff about her that‘s no one‘s business. But Chuene ignored that, and did anyway and so it’s his fault that the world now knows personal stuff about Caster. But that‘s exactly Martin‘s position, the world has no right to know these things, So Martin and those who agree with him should not be in favor of adding what Adams accused Chuene of doing wrong. This conflicts, however with the goal of exposing those at fault for her mistreatment, so here we are. Are we supposed to write this in such a way that the reader can‘t really understand or we write it and let on that she‘s interex, which is what the article does at this point if the reader is astute, or what? If you are against including things in this article which indicate she to the reader that she’s intersex, you don’t want to include this; if you want to tell the reader who Dr. Adams is and what he said about what Chuene did, then you have to let on that the team doctor saw the exams and told Chuene that Caster shouldn’t be entered in order to protect her privacy.
Then we learn she‘s lawyered up. But we have learned since then that this announcement may have been premature. If you‘ve read the New Yorker, the lawyers keep trying to talk to her but are told to go away. So this section needs to be revisited.
Then we learned that the ASA had convinced the IAAF to keep her medal and the prize money. But that’s telling the reader to wonder why there was any question about that, and in context is obviously that they found her intersex, so again let’s not kid ourselves we’re saying she must be intersex.
Again in the end, the same thing. They didn’t say if she would be allowed to compete as a woman because they don’t have a clear line as to what constitutes what it would take to be a woman so far as the 800M goes. Honestly, what does that tell the reader? We’re not saying she’s intersex, we’re just saying that we don’t know if she’ll be able to run with the women anymore because we don’t have clear rules as to what it takes to be allowed as a female in the 8oom.
In conclusion, there’s no way to write this so the reader so it both makes sense and doesn’t let on that she’s intersex. So are we going to have a good gender section or are we going to protect her privacy?
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XX or XY? I don't care what they're calling those these days but which is it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.122.63.142 ( talk) 13:29, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
There is no mention in the current version of the leaks to the Media. The LA Times has a story some info on the leak. A somewhat sensitive and unfortunate incident, but whatever the case, Wiki should contain reliable information. Wapondaponda ( talk) 19:46, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Caster Semenya is a hermaphrodite. Why does this article still say they don't know about her gender? -- TangoFett ( talk) 00:28, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Caution: This article is currently seeing slow progress. Edits may get reverted or removed not only if they are not properly sourced, as would be true of any article, but also if they contain information that said source has not gotten properly. You should provide an edit summary, and I would also recommend having read and understood the contents of this talk page so that you know exactly what information I am alluding to here before attempting any contributions. Thank you for your cooperation! Chrisrus ( talk) 05:51, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
I'd just like to point out that, though this page is locked so that only administrators can edit it, if people can come to some agreement on the talk page as to how that 'gender' paragraph should read, it should be a simple matter of posting an {{ editprotected}} request here with the agreed text, and an uninvolved admin (not me!) will change it - Alison ❤ 07:35, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
I do not understand why Wikipedia is getting this wrong. You can't run a "gender test" by looking at a person's chromosomes. Gender is a psychological aspect of humans. Sex is the question. You can run a sex test, sex is what we define as the differentiation between male and female. I understand most news sites don't make the distinction, but I expect more from Wikipedia. A male, (XY), can have feminine/masculine/neutral gender traits, and still be of the male sex. Similarly a female (XX) can have feminine/masculine/neutral gender traits and still be of the female sex. Gender is simply the wrong word to refer to the issue. No one is questioning whether or not she acts and thinks 'like' a woman. They ask questioning if she 'is' a woman (physically). It would also serve to understand that not all humans even fit within the sexes of XX and XY, there are many other variants (ex. XXX, XXY, XYY) that are not as of yet considered "officially". Usually any precence of the X chromosome determined the person to be of the male sex, but it is all too little understood by most people. I'm disappointed with Wikipedia here. 'Gender' needs to be replaced with 'sex'. Promontoriumispromontorium ( talk) 02:59, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
This is a common misconception. The word "gender" has several correct definitions and "state of being male or female, sex" is one of them. This article is not using the word wrong. It is simply using the colloquial definition rather than the one used in sociology. It is perfectly valid to call this "gender verification." Darkfrog24 ( talk) 15:25, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
What does this "...we get a gynae opinion and take it to Berlin" mean in this context? Chrisrus ( talk) 05:22, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Ok, so we have | this: "(ASA) president Leonard Chuene admitted on Saturday that he refused to accept advice from ASA team doctor Harold Adams to withdraw Caster Semenya from the world athletics championships in Berlin last month.". So must we still have doubt that Semenya is intersexed? Adams is named and has seen the evidence first hand and said she was intersex. He's the team doctor. Chrisrus ( talk)
← I am educated about it, thanks. I've written articles about intersex conditions, both here and for other publications and am aware of most of the latest research on the topic, having read far too many research papers. There are many, many intersex conditions that I'm aware of and it's simply not okay to go on with this "athletically male" nonsense when the facts are not available to you (nor to the Mail and Guardian). Does she have CAIS/PAIS, mixed gonadal dysgenesis, Swyer syndrome, etc, etc - just for starters? You certainly don't know. And as Bielle put it above; "This is a woman's life we are chatting about" and this is where my own interest lies. It's a BLP issue and remains so until some concrete, reliable source is cited and right now, that's yet to happen. All this "athletically male" nonsense is just idle chatter and you do not have the full facts - Alison ❤ 08:32, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Honestly, stop doing this and this. Your comments are now in complete disarray - Alison ❤ 06:08, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Right now, editors here should be working on addressing the 'gender' heading in the article, to come to some sort of concordance as to how it should read. All this idle speculation is getting us nowhere. Someone should post a suggested new paragraph here and let folks debate as to the correctness of it. Once everyone is happy, then request an update to the article or an unprotect. This is the way to move things forward - Alison ❤ 08:37, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Martin Hogbin ( talk) 09:41, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
I think it's time to re-merge the "Gender controversy" section back into the main text similar to what is seen here. She's 18? and I believe on suicide watch now. Let's not belabour and add undue drama where a real life is at risk. We are not a tabloid or a newspaper - we are an encyclopedia. A good or featured article would not shove all the tabloid bits into a special section like this bringing even more attention to the details. A good article would integrate the events coherently; extra details deemed needed perhaps could be relegated to footnotes for those readers interested. This will be an ongoing drama so we can let reliable sources lead the way. -- Banjeboi 14:36, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
I do not like the change to the lead section, where you have replaced my wording of 'eligibility to compete as woman' with 'gender'. I think that it is most important that we make the distinction between the way a person is generally classified as a man or a woman, which is a very complicated, emotive and personal subject, and the only issue of public importance, which is whether Caster is eligible to compete in women's athletics events. Her eligibility to compete in any given event depends only on the rules of the governing body for that sport.
If a sports person is declared under the rules of a sport to be ineligible to compete as a woman in a particular event that does not mean that she is not a woman, indeed, that person may be eligible to compete in another event, governed by a different body, as a woman and may me considered a woman for many other purposes. Conversely just because a person is considered eligible to compete as a woman in an event does not make her a woman for all purposes.
I accept that my wording was a bit cumbersome, perhaps 'eligibility to compete in women's events' may be better but we must make the distinction between a person's gender, in a general sense, and their eligibility to compete in a particular sport as a woman. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 08:36, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Hopefully I'm putting this in the right place, and I suppose I'm not much of a Wikipedian, but I'm a little disappointed that the "Gender Controversy" section has been merged... and essentially swept under the rug. While I feel for Ms. Semenya, and people certainly deserve to keep their medical information private, I think the only reason most of us are aware of her is because of questions related to her gender. Reducing these down to a single line -- "Following her victory, questions were raised about her gender" -- may be fair under the BLP policy, but seems roughly analogous to writing about Nixon and glossing over Watergate. Perhaps The Daily Telegraph (the Aussie one) isn't exactly the BBC, but no one has stated that what was written was libelous and journalists around the globe have used it as a source in dozens, perhaps hundreds, of articles. I think in this case the source is neither questionable nor gossip. Would Wikipedia not use Bob Woodward's secret informant Deep Throat?
I'm not trying to impugn Semenya's character -- unlike Nixon, I don't think she had any ill intent and is likely an innocent party in all of this hullabaloo. However, I think an encyclopedic article related to Caster Semenya should include a section related to the reason why she's known around the globe, even if that reason is hurtful to her personally. JoeyJoJoShabbaduJr ( talk) 15:56, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
It is interesting to ask why this information doesn't seem seriously in doubt outside of this article. The reason seems to rely in the reactions to the leak.
The IAAF reacted officially by refusing to confirm or deny, even when the organized wrath of the so many South Africans and others was directed at them, some of which was WAY over the top threatening. It doesn’t seem to make any sense to anyone why they wouldn’t just have said “Those are not the results of the test, the article is false; we didn't leak it, that article is wrong” and thereby simply making it all go away. There are circumstances when "we cannot confirm or deny" amounts to a pathetically thinly veiled confirmation. Also, what possible reason could there be for the results of the test to be still under review, if she's not intersex in a way that might question the propiety of her running in the women's 800M?
Second, the anti-IAAF reaction hasn't been to deny the info in the Australian leak. It doesn’t seem to make sense to those persuing this story that Semenya's defenders wouldn’t just deny the facts in the leak instead of decrying the invasion of privacy they represent, or questioning the motivation of the leakers. If the information in the leaks isn’t true, why react like that? Why not just say call them lies and sue for libel or anything like that? And besides, how hard would it be to prove them false if they were?
Third, and completely absent from this article and discuss page, are the events of the past week. We now know that the Atheletics South Africa had been lying about not having done tests and having found out that she was intersexed in a way which might (blah blah) the 800, having done this before Berlin and having lied to the IAAF and later the world about those facts, and also not, as reportedly had been done in previous cases, quietly withdrawing the athlete in order to avoid just specifically this kind of situation. The story is unfolding daily and has become somewhat of a South African political crisis of increasing magnitude. So one might expect this article to at least mention these things. The fact that we have not done so seems to be that the discourse outside of the article has long since moved past the premise that she’s intersex and left us behind and unable to find a way to incorporate it without the background information. Well, that's the reason I haven't anyway, I wouldn't know where in the article to put it. In order to understand what’s going on now, we’d have to understand what had gone on before and we can’t get past that point weeks ago. If I’m wrong about that, try writing a fair summary of this source http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=6&click_id=174&art_id=nw20090925152459203C586459 and then incorporating it into the article. If we want a cohesive, informative article, we have to do what the BBC, etc. do, and simply tell the readers what happened while adding words like “allegedly” or “reportedly” or “claimed that”, etc. We could even go further and not name the exact organs she has and does not have in an explicit way, if we're squeemish; we could say words to the effect of "missing the usual organs" and "possessing an internal set of male organs", or even just "an obviously intersex condition" or something even lighter. That way, we'd be safe with the BLP guidelines and still be able to write a decent article. And about embarassing Semenya by doing so? That damage has clearly already been done long ago by others.
Hope this helps! Chrisrus ( talk) 07:01, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=6&click_id=174&art_id=nw20090925152459203C586459
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/semenya-has-no-womb-or-ovaries/story-e6frexni-1225771672245
The relevant quote from this article is, "According to a source closely involved with the Semenya examinations IAAF testing, which included various scans, has revealed...". That is not, in my opinion, good enough for a BLP.
Martin Hogbin (
talk)
20:54, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
I have made some changes to the last paragraph. The original reference I found confusing about what was being cited (ref 28 from earlier today. I don't know how to link to it here), and I have provided a slightly different one that does do what is cited. (If the first was just fine, and I have mis-read, I apologize. I don't care which of the refs is used as long as we do not extrapolate into text that is not supported.) It is absolutely clear that all reports support hat the SA doctor, the coach and even the head of the association as trying to protect the confidentiality of Semenya's medical information. It is not anywhere stated that possible ambiguity about her gender as might be shown in the test results was the concern, but the fact that withdrawing her from competition on those grounds would have violated her privacy. Only the coach seemed concerned that not telling Semenya the truth about the nature of the tests, or about the results, could be viewed as an even greater ethical breach as it took out of her hands the decisions to be made about the very essece of her identity. This last bit, however, is my opinion only; pure WP:OR. // BL \\ ( talk) 16:45, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
http://hades.mg.co.za/article/2009-10-23-secret-report-reveals-chuenes-plotting Chrisrus ( talk) 14:40, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8333840.stm Chrisrus ( talk) 18:25, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20091021103342987C723275 Chrisrus ( talk) 19:15, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
http://www.timeslive.co.za/sundaytimes/article184381.ece Chrisrus ( talk) 23:34, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
The term Gender is not the same as Sex. Gender is a cultural construction (i.e., the number and composition of "genders" varies by culture), while sex is a biological trait (also not quite as neat and tidy as dual). There is no "gender testing" or "gender controversy". These tests are about sex. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.161.51.2 ( talk) 20:53, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
“People took the decision a few weeks ago to suspend me because they accused me of handling the Caster Semenya case wrongly. [3] Chrisrus ( talk) 18:50, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
The article says that MJ singled out the IAAF, but he spoke very early. Later, Carl Lewis singled out ASA for criticism. http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/21134540/vp/32875407#34109445 Let's be fair, MJ spoke before we knew what we know about the ASA role, he may agree with CL now. Chrisrus ( talk) 00:25, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
the IAAF The South African Sports Ministry (oops, I misread the first news release) announced today that Ms Semenya would be permitted to keep her gold medal and her prize money as there has been no wrong-doing on her part. It also stated that any legal tests done under its auspices would be treated under doctor-patient confidentiality and neither released nor discussed.
[4] Before we get into writing anything in the article, can anyone find a similar statement about whether or not Semenya's record stands?
Bielle (
talk)
16:10, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
"The IAAF says it is still working behind the scenes with Caster Semenya and the South African government to resolve issues about the 18-year-old runner's gender identity and future career."..... "The governing body of track says it cannot confirm the South African sports ministry's claims of a deal allowing Semenya to keep the 800-meter world title and prize money she won in August, and maintain privacy over her gender test results."... "...the parties are "almost there" in concluding complex negotiations."... "....."questions would not be resolved during a two-day meeting of the IAAF's ruling council which began Friday in Monaco"
This article looks credible, and comes from a generally reliable source. It states that Semenya was born intersex, and had a sex change at a young age that she wasn't aware of. Why isn't this being mentioned on this page? What's taking so long? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.120.163.106 ( talk) 21:21, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
Uhh, am I misreading this? It seems like its clearly referring to Semenya. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.120.163.106 ( talk) 07:07, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Let’s not kid ourselves about what the article as it stands does and does not do. No, it does not actually come out and say point blank “she’s intersex“, but don't let that fact let you let us all off the hook for exposing her. It very effectively tells the reader as much anyway. For example, when you tell someone that her team doctor performed an exam on her and went to the ASA and said “don’t send her, they’ll have to make her condition public”, Martin, when you tell them things like this, you let everyone know specifically what you say you don‘t want to tell them. No, you are right, the exact medical details will never be in the article, but the fact that she’s intersex is in there already. And that’s personal and private enough. So all her privacy about that fact she didn‘t want anyone to know, the personal medical fact, that she is somehow intersex, which it would seem she herself didn’t already know, this is already being stated in the article to the reader very clearly if they read at all carefully. This not just my doing, it’s yours and those of the other contributors who shared the goal of exposing the wrongdoers and “supporting” Semenya in this way, laudable goals, but have a look, it turns out that, hey, I’m sorry to be the one to point this out:
YOU CAN‘T do both:
a) not to tell the reader of her intersex condition,
b) tell the reader what exactly Chuene, etc. did wrong.
You can’t do both! I wish there were another way, but there’s not. There are several other examples, places in the article where we let on to the reader. If we don’t want to tell the reader personal medical information, we shouldn’t talk about the gender controversy at all, or find some very brief and vague way to mention it so that the reader won’t get the message loud and clear that this is an intersex person, because the article does this, as it stands now, and Caster didn’t want anyone to know the personal private medical information that she is intersex.
"There will be no discussion of Caster Semenya's case at the forthcoming IAAF council meeting to be held in Monaco on 20-21 November 2009. No further comment will be made on this subject until further notice."
The Age has a rather good article on media impact including some cultural nuances that may help here. -- Banjeboi 14:43, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
What information from the sources that we are already using are we ignoring? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8215112.stm
Would anyone object to my adding any of these sentences to the article?
I am not sure whether you expect comments from everyone on each suggestion but my general opinion is that to include much more on the subject would be giving undue weight to the gender controversy. This is an encyclopedia not a gossip column and the points you raise are only of passing importance. The only thing that we are all waiting for is confirmation (or otherwise) from the IAAF that Caster's Berlin result stands.
Is there one particular point that you think has special encyclopedic importance? Martin Hogbin ( talk) 11:04, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
In my opinion, I seems to me looking at this citation alone, we might be able to use the following:
When Caster Semenya was born, everyone observed her to be female.
… at which time, Caster asked Chuene “Why did you bring me here, you should have left me home in my village.” … (IF we can figure out what it was she meant by that)
After the race, the IAAF insisted that, in order to be declared the winner, she would first have to pass an internal examination in order to determine if she had a rare medical condition that would give her an unfair advantage over the racers.
…the IAAF insisted that it never suspected her of doping, cheating, or being a man posing as woman; they were looking for a rare medical condition that would give her unfair advantage over the other racers.
….Soon after it was made public that the IAAF had conducted the tests, the African National Congress, and the South African Young Communists League conducted a campaign of public outrage at the IAAF for having conducted an internal exam.
…, the results of which (the The Berlin Tests) have never been officially released, …
…, The IAAF medical examiners in Berlin deliberated and decided to give themselves November, 2009 before deciding what do with the results. (needs work).
…in Berlin, right after the tests Chuene (not the IAAF) announced with outrage that the internal exam had been conducted, publicly calling the internal examination “humiliating” and saying that Semenya had been treated “like a leper”. (Maybe not this last part. We are trying to write this with Semenya’s feelings in mind. On the other hand, it shows pretty clearly how well Chuene keeps that in mind when he speaks, to say nothing about the feelings of people with leprosy.)
(Subtext) IT WAS CHUENE WHO INITIALLY MADE THIS PUBLIC, NOT THE IAAF.
Important discussion of the nature and scope of the article itself has stopped the process at this point. Chrisrus ( talk) 05:56, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
A lot of questions debated here might best be resolved by the creation of a Semenya Gender Controversy (or some more generically titled) article. Keep the Semenya bio info here and farm the rest out to the new article. There is definitely valid information that should be in wiki about this situation, but some of it feels out of place here.-- Fizbin ( talk) 21:31, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
- “* South African runner Caster Semenya's muscular physique aided a victory during the 800 meters at the 2009 World Championships in Athletics in Berlin. The International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF), track and field's governing body, confirmed that Semenya had agreed to a sex-testing process that began in South Africa and was continuing in Germany. Officials wouldn't give details of the testing, but did say that it involves an endocrinologist, a gynecologist, a psychologist, and both internal and external examinations. [2]“
We can’t put equal weight on Caster’s athletic career and the gender controversy because her athletic career is too short and simple. Even if we did it perfectly, it would still be short. That’s just a simple fact. Put it aside as a given.
On the other hand, we can’t do justice to the gender controversy in few words. We can try for brevity, but it’s a very complicated situation and if we do it, as we are doing, in very few words, how can we be fair to all parties involved? As it is, it‘s not fair to all the parties it mentions. The reader can’t understand .
We can balance the lead and put the athletics up front, but if the gender controversy is to be done justice, if the reader is to be properly served, we must allow many more words in the gender controversy section than in the athletics section. Chrisrus ( talk) 16:50, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
One or the other, Martin. In the gender controversy section, we begin with the details Semenya winning in Berlin. But we already know this because we’ve read the sports section. I say delete it and start with the next sentence. “Following her victory, questions were raised about her gender. This is repeated from the lead, but that’s maybe good to do, repeat things from the lead.
Now we hear that she said she didn’t care. I say leave that part. I love it when she says stuff like how she doesn’t give a damn what anyone thinks, God made her that way and so on. And it certainly sounds like something she’d say. By all accounts it’s the kind of thing she’s been saying pretty much all her life and it makes me love her and have hope for her; she’ll get through this. It’s also great that we are letting let her have the first and last words on this matter.
But in the same sentence it’s she says she was so ticked off that she wanted to boycott the ceremony. But sources tell us that Chuene told that to some South African reporters that were there, and that he’d had to persuade her to do it, making him look powerful in her life as her big defender. But Chuene has proven to be an unreliable source, to say the least. I say lose it. Replace it with Semenya saying “Chuene, you asshole, why the hell did you bring me here for? You should have left me back in my Village”or whatever her exact word were, I’d say.
Then we hear that the IAAF are the bad guys, but not specifically what the accusation is yet, but we learn about the critics. Michael Johnson, speaking boldly, but very early on, against the IAAF administering the Berlin exams. When Carl Lewis spoke with great disgust about Chuene I thought for sure it’d make the article, but no one saw fit to include it, perhaps because at the time Chuene had set himself up as her defender and no one wanted to question him. I provided everything that’d be needed, quotation and citation, here in the talk page. On the other hand, this is supposed to be in chronological order. But for now please note that if we are going to have MJ vs. IAAF, we should look for a good place to include CL vs. ASA later on.
And then listing the South African players who came out swinging at the IAAF early on, and a taste of some of the over the top rhetoric they were coming out with (including threatening “WWIII”) about the evil IAAF, and but a word about how the ASA put the IAAF in that position knowingly. Do you think maybe we should back up a bit or not start at the end of the race? Knowing what we know now about what went on before Chuene brought her to Berlin might show these facts in a brighter light.
Then we let the IAAF defend itself. Well done I say. Look, some of that looks like my text!
Then we have the You magazine spread, not mentioning that it was arranged by the ASA to convince people that she wasn‘t intersex at all, and which make me cringe, I donno about you, you think that’s what a person who says "God made me the way I am and I accept myself" would want to do?
Daniels resigns in shame for not protecting her. Good one, leave it in, but does our reader understand what he meant by "we did not advise Ms Semenya properly"? Our reader does not understand. Protect her from what? The sources tell us that they failed to do what is usually done in such cases and not send them into a situation where the IAAF will have to test them and quietly let the person fade back into her private life.
Then we find out a little of what Chuene did, only that he had had Caster do a gender test too. I hope the reader gets the idea that, oh, so what was he so upset about the IAAF doing one also? I thought it was so wrong to insist that an athlete be subjected to internal examinations. I’m not so sure that the reader gets that, though. We are careful to let Chuene defend himself a little, he was just keeping her records confidential. That’s nice, how thoughtful of him. If he was so worried about her privacy, why did he put her in that situation. Oh well, let’m have his say, it’s only fair I suppose. But let’s make sure the reader understands that all previous attacks by the ASA on the IAAF for internal exam-insisting are now off.
Now we get to the meat of the matter. He ignored a request from ASA team doctor Harold Adams to withdraw Semenya from the world championships over concerns about the need to keep her medical records confidential. The whole point, irony of our position is right here. Should we say that Adams was saying, “she‘s intersex, if you send her, the world will find out personal stuff about her that‘s no one‘s business. But Chuene ignored that, and did anyway and so it’s his fault that the world now knows personal stuff about Caster. But that‘s exactly Martin‘s position, the world has no right to know these things, So Martin and those who agree with him should not be in favor of adding what Adams accused Chuene of doing wrong. This conflicts, however with the goal of exposing those at fault for her mistreatment, so here we are. Are we supposed to write this in such a way that the reader can‘t really understand or we write it and let on that she‘s interex, which is what the article does at this point if the reader is astute, or what? If you are against including things in this article which indicate she to the reader that she’s intersex, you don’t want to include this; if you want to tell the reader who Dr. Adams is and what he said about what Chuene did, then you have to let on that the team doctor saw the exams and told Chuene that Caster shouldn’t be entered in order to protect her privacy.
Then we learn she‘s lawyered up. But we have learned since then that this announcement may have been premature. If you‘ve read the New Yorker, the lawyers keep trying to talk to her but are told to go away. So this section needs to be revisited.
Then we learned that the ASA had convinced the IAAF to keep her medal and the prize money. But that’s telling the reader to wonder why there was any question about that, and in context is obviously that they found her intersex, so again let’s not kid ourselves we’re saying she must be intersex.
Again in the end, the same thing. They didn’t say if she would be allowed to compete as a woman because they don’t have a clear line as to what constitutes what it would take to be a woman so far as the 800M goes. Honestly, what does that tell the reader? We’re not saying she’s intersex, we’re just saying that we don’t know if she’ll be able to run with the women anymore because we don’t have clear rules as to what it takes to be allowed as a female in the 8oom.
In conclusion, there’s no way to write this so the reader so it both makes sense and doesn’t let on that she’s intersex. So are we going to have a good gender section or are we going to protect her privacy?